Today's wing player would never make it in Phil's triangle

[3ball]

.
The triangle offense is an equal opportunity (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s) offense run through the post, where all 5 players are tasked with catching the ball on the post and making plays..


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-28-2015/2vlyzd.gif


The post-centric nature of the offense and the lack of ball-domination and screen-rolls makes it very restrictive for wing players with a good handle - what wing player in today's game could thrive, let alone dominate at the highest level in that offense?.. After all, they are used to today's high screen-roll play where the floor is totally spread on the strongside AND weakside, while the paint is empty:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-06-2015/PSI9y6.gif


It's surprising that MJ didn't run Phil Jackson out of town when he first introduced the triangle.. But MJ didn't run Phil out of town - instead, he adjusted his game, which already included a heavy dose of off-ball play, to include even more off-ball play, particularly from the post..

By making these adjustments, MJ allowed his team to run an optimal, equal-opportunity offense, and therefore the best brand of basketball, which prevented less-talented teams from pulling upsets by playing a better brand of basketball.. This contrasts from Lebron's game, whose ball-dominance and lack of off-ball ability prevents his teams from playing the best brand of basketball, which gives equal or less-talented opponents the opportunity to pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).
.

[swagga]

.
The triangle offense is an "equal-opportunity" offense run through the post, where all 5 players are tasked with catching the ball on the post and making plays..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxsmT7vZtVo&t=11m32s


The post-centric nature of the offense and the lack of ball-domination and screen-rolls makes it very restrictive for wing players with a good handle - what wing player in today's game could thrive, let alone dominate at the highest level in that offense?.. After all, they are used to today's high screen-roll play where the floor is totally spread on the strongside AND weakside, while the paint is empty:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-06-2015/PSI9y6.gif


It's surprising that MJ didn't run Phil Jackson out of town when he first introduced the triangle.. But MJ didn't run Phil out of town - instead, he adjusted his game, which already included a heavy dose of off-ball play, to include even more off-ball play, particularly from the post..

By making these adjustments, MJ allowed his team to run an optimal, equal-opportunity offense, and therefore the best brand of basketball, which prevented less-talented teams from pulling upsets by playing a better brand of basketball.. This contrasts from Lebron's game, whose ball-dominance and lack of off-ball ability prevents his teams from playing the best brand of basketball, which gives equal or less-talented opponents the opportunity to pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).
.

so if the triangle is such a great offense why did it win only with super stacked teams ( 90s bulls, shaq lakers, 09-10 lakers).

so if the triangle offense is an equal opportunity system why did jordan take more than 30% of the fgs?

[swagga]

oh sorry, I forgot that the triangle offense was so good it didn't need jordan to go within one win of the NBA finals.

I see it now. You proposing jordan is overrated and that the true MVP is the triangle. That's an interesting point tbh. Post more.

[FreezingTsmoove]

so if the triangle is such a great offense why did it win only with super stacked teams ( 90s bulls, shaq lakers, 09-10 lakers).

so if the triangle offense is an equal opportunity system why did jordan take more than 30% of the fgs?

I dont think the 09 10 Lakers were super stacked :/

[3ball]

so if the triangle offense is an equal opportunity system why did jordan take more than 30% of the fgs?


Even though all 5 guys get to catch it on the post, MJ naturally shot a far higher frequency when he caught it than everyone else.. Everyone else like Kerr, Grant, Longley - they just handed it off or otherwise passed a much higher proportion of the time.

But the point is that MJ had to score from the post/triple-threat position, as opposed to today's wing player, who gets to dominate the ball with live dribbles and spaced-out, screen-roll action (see gif in OP).






http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-11-2015/454Vvd.gif


so if the triangle is such a great offense why did it win only with super stacked teams ( 90s bulls, shaq lakers, 09-10 lakers).



The triangle only works if you have a player capable of dominating from the post like MJ or Shaq, and then Pau.. Only players with the very best post skill or ability to dominate on the post.

For example, Carmelo isn't that player.

[swagga]

I dont think the 09 10 Lakers were super stacked :/

I think you should watch some tape then.
Close to prime kobe
Prime gasol
Prime odom
Bynum growing into his own (too bad for injuries, but he was the 2nd best C in the league), his per 36 numbers were very good.
Prima ariza (all-nba defender)
artest had something left in the tank
Dj Mbenga doing work
fisher did adequate work
shannon brown wad mad athletic and put in work on D

Phil coaching.

that was a stacked team son.

[swagga]

Even though all 5 guys get to catch it on the post, MJ naturally shot a far higher frequency when he caught it than everyone else.. Everyone else like Kerr, Grant, Longley - they just handed it off or otherwise passed a much higher proportion of the time.

so why did jordan had a MUCH higher usage rate and number of possessions, if it was such an equal oportunity offense?



But the point is that MJ had to score from the post/triple-threat position, as opposed to today's wing player, who gets to dominate the ball with live dribbles and spaced-out, screen-roll action (see gif in OP).

so in this ideal offense the spacing wasn't optimal? :hammerhead:




The triangle only works if you have a player capable of dominating from the post like MJ or Shaq, and then Pau.. Only players with the very best post skill or ability to dominate on the post.
For example, Carmelo isn't that player.
so it's an equal opportunity ideal offense, but only for teams multiple top 10 players in the league, and it didn't actually provide perfect spacing. Your definition of ideal is indeed complicated :oldlol:

[ralph_i_el]

oh sorry, I forgot that the triangle offense was so good it didn't need jordan to go within one win of the NBA finals.

I see it now. You proposing jordan is overrated and that the true MVP is the triangle. That's an interesting point tbh. Post more.
http://reactiongifs.me/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/vladimir-putin-laughing.gif

got em

[Fallen Angel]

3ball, can you post a quick list of things wings in the triangle offense need to have to be successful so I can respond with a list of players that I think could fit the bill.

[swagga]

went awol after 2 replies, kids are soft these days i guess :confusedshrug:

[ralph_i_el]

http://i.imgur.com/ZWHIEWU.gif

3Ball leaving this thread like
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[ralph_i_el]

http://media.yourdailymedia.com/4/Y5KqACt.gif

http://media.yourdailymedia.com/4/xIolo.gif

Driver: ISH
Protester: 3ball
Bucket: His copypasta

http://media.yourdailymedia.com/4/tumblr_mvtj0aC3WR1qdlh1io1_250.gif
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this is now a .gif thread

[Lebron23]

Damn 3ball got destroyed in his own thread.

[sdot_thadon]

Current players that would work (prime versions)

Wade
Lebron
Durant
Curry
Melo
Westbrook

Maybe even more than that but that's just off the top of my head. You focus far too much on playstyle than whether or not they could adjust. It's not just the star but the cast as well. You don't just require one post threat, you need 3. And everyone has to be able to move off ball within it. The biggest hurdle is getting the star to buy in(which includes a mentality shift on the floor), which ironically was MJ's biggest hurdle as well.



Jordan had spit out the words “equal-opportunity offense” a lot during Jackson’s first season, although it hardly worked out that way, and Jackson never planned it to. You don’t take the best scorer in the game and reduce him to just another player among five. Jordan would still have ample opportunity to go one-on-one, for Jackson would bastardize the system to open the floor up provide Jordan those opportunities even as other players moved within the system’s constraints.

So MJ didn't even allow the bulls to play the most optimal form of the glorious system?

[swagga]

3ball, why do you think other teams don't use the triangle more, besides the omnipresent zipper cut?

[Fallen Angel]

my god this forum is shitty

[FreezingTsmoove]

I think you should watch some tape then.
Close to prime kobe
Prime gasol
Prime odom
Bynum growing into his own (too bad for injuries, but he was the 2nd best C in the league), his per 36 numbers were very good.
Prima ariza (all-nba defender)
artest had something left in the tank
Dj Mbenga doing work
fisher did adequate work
shannon brown wad mad athletic and put in work on D

Phil coaching.

that was a stacked team son.

i dont think dj fisher and brown make a team super stacked :/

[swagga]

i dont think dj fisher and brown make a team super stacked :/

Well, of course they don't as 1st team options, but dh mbenga was the 4th big in minutes, shannon brown was the 4th wing in minutes and derek fisher was a weak link but still was a clutch champion and leader. For their roles they were very good role players. Then you add

artest/ariza
prime odom
prime gasol (top 5 player)
prime kobe (top 3 player)

That amount of talent with the right role players is the definition of stacked.

[3ball]

so it's an equal opportunity offense, but only for teams with top 10 players in the league


Yes - you need the very best post players in the game, because those are the only guys that can dominate and get elite stats within such a post-centric and restrictive offense.





and the triangle didn't provide perfect spacing. Your definition of ideal is indeed complicated


The triangle was ideal at the time.

In today's game, teams know to leverage the 3-point shot and the spacing it creates, along with the hands-off defense to make drive-and-kick more efficient than the triangle's post play.. But the drive-and-kick we see today only started in earnest around 2011.

So the triangle was optimal AT THE TIME... But again, you always need the best post players in the game for it to work.

[3ball]

3ball, why do you think other teams don't use the triangle more, besides the omnipresent zipper cut?


In today's game, teams know to leverage the 3-point shot and the spacing it creates, along with the hands-off defense to make drive-and-kick more efficient than the triangle's post play.. But the drive-and-kick we see today only started in earnest around 2011.

So the triangle was optimal AT THE TIME... But again, you always need the best post players in the game for it to work.

[HiphopRelated]

It's an archaic offense

[3ball]

It's an archaic offense
Only because today's teams know to leverage the 3-point shot and the spacing it creates, along with the hands-off defense to make drive-and-kick more efficient than the triangle's post play..

But the drive-and-kick we see today only started in earnest around 2011.. So the triangle was optimal AT THE TIME... But again, you always need the best post players in the game for it to work.

[sdot_thadon]

In today's game, teams know to leverage the 3-point shot and the spacing it creates, along with the hands-off defense to make drive-and-kick more efficient than the triangle's post play.. But the drive-and-kick we see today only started in earnest around 2011.

So the triangle was optimal AT THE TIME... But again, you always need the best post players in the game for it to work.
Holy backpedal.

[3ball]

Holy backpedal.
explain

[sdot_thadon]

explain
You've just spent the last season trying to prove lebron played a less optimal style of ball to right now concede

So the triangle was optimal AT THE TIME....
Hell of a backpedal.

You still didn't answer this either.
[QUOTE]
[B]Jordan had spit out the words

[swagga]

Only because today's teams know to leverage the 3-point shot and the spacing it creates, along with the hands-off defense to make drive-and-kick more efficient than the triangle's post play..

But the drive-and-kick we see today only started in earnest around 2011.. So the triangle was optimal AT THE TIME... But again, you always need the best post players in the game for it to work.

so if the triangle is an inferior offense today, why does it matter that today's players aren't optimizing their skills for it? isn't it normal for them to maximize their skills in a superior offense? why make the thread? :rolleyes:

[sdot_thadon]

so if the triangle is an inferior offense today, why does it matter that today's players aren't optimizing their skills for it? isn't it normal for them to maximize their skills in a superior offense? why make the thread? :rolleyes:
Bingo.

[DonDadda59]

The triangle is predicated on great post players, which are becoming rare these days, especially on the perimeter. Jordan was one of the premier post players of his day, easily the best on the perimeter. Then Phil took the system to LA where Shaq, Kobe, and Pau were among the best, most effective post players in the league.

I think the Spurs would kill the competition if they ran the triangle. Old Man River Walk is still a beast on the low block despite his advanced age, Aldridge is competent with his back to the basket and they have an endless supply of slashers and spot up shooters which is integral for the system.


It's an archaic offense

Archaic as in the Lakers won just 5 years ago, winning back to back championships, making 3 finals in a row running the Triangle.

Makes perfect sense.

[3ball]

so if the triangle is an inferior offense today, why does it matter that today's players aren't optimizing their skills for it? isn't it normal for them to maximize their skills in a superior offense? why make the thread? :rolleyes:
because it shows that today's player wouldn't be as good in previous eras, when the 3-point shooting and the resulting spacing didn't exist for their drive-and-kicks to be viable.. they would have to post up in the triangle or another offense, and they don't have equal post skill as their drive-and-kick skill

[3ball]

:facepalm

[3ball]

You've just spent the last season trying to prove lebron played a less optimal style of ball to right now concede


As opposed to 1 player doing all the drive and kicks (Lebron, CP3's teams, etc), the best brand of basketball in today's game is when ALL FIVE offensive players are running drive and kicks (Spurs, Warriors, 2011 Mavs), just like the Bulls used to post up ALL FIVE guys - these are equal-opportunity offenses.

In the Bulls' case, MJ's elite ability as an off-ball player allowed his team to run an optimal, equal-opportunity offense, and therefore the best brand of basketball, which prevented less-talented teams from pulling upsets by playing a better brand of basketball.. This contrasts from Lebron's game, whose ball-dominance and lack of off-ball ability prevents his teams from playing the best brand of basketball, which gives equal or less-talented opponents the opportunity to pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

Tbh, in today's game, teams with a ball-dominant, low-assisted PG that hogs all the drive-and-kicks for himself actually don't win - see Clippers, Nash's Suns, or any team like that... Lebron's teams are even more suboptimal because they have TWO heavily ball-dominant, low-assisted players that hog all the drive-and-kicks.

Otoh, the teams that actually win distribute the drive-and-kicks more evenly across their roster because their point guards actually don't dominate the ball that much - tony parker and steph curry have the lowest time of possession of any starting point guards and Curry has a very high assisted rate - an equitable distribution of drive-and-kicks and decision-making is more successful than Lebron's monopolizing style.

http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?sort=TOP&dir=1





So MJ didn't even allow the 1990 bulls to play the most optimal form of this glorious system?


In MJ's first year using the triangle, he adjusted well enough for the Bulls to win it all, but the reality is that Pippen cost the Bulls the 1990 championship - the Bulls took the Pistons 7 games in 1990 ECF, whereas the Blazers only took them 6 in the Finals.. Based on this, we can conclude that MJ's Bulls would've beaten Clyde's Blazers in 1990 Finals.

Unfortunately, Pippen famously disappeared in the critical Game 7 against Detroit.. He later admitted in the Bad Boys documentary (link below), that "the pressure" caused him to score only 2 points and 1-10 fg in the series-decider:


"..it was the pressure.. As the pressure grew, the pounding grew.. I wasn't able to answer the bell."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s



Pippen cost Bulls the 1990 championship and a 4-peat.. :facepalm
.

[GimmeThat]

translating post up skills into perimeter skills requires players with equal understanding on guiding the ball handler where the next pass goes to. the spacing equivalent to one step right diagonally, as well as left diagonally with it all being considered into a straight line to the basket. at least that's helped me in getting my shot off as I am being forced into a position away from the basket.

this post probably has no entertainment value without making 5 big men having to go against another and determine who's the best.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I think you should watch some tape then.
Close to prime kobe
Prime gasol
Prime odom
Bynum growing into his own (too bad for injuries, but he was the 2nd best C in the league), his per 36 numbers were very good.
Prima ariza (all-nba defender)
artest had something left in the tank
Dj Mbenga doing work
fisher did adequate work
shannon brown wad mad athletic and put in work on D

Phil coaching.

that was a stacked team son.

:roll: :roll:

holy shit can you be any more stupid than this..

Dj Mbenga played 28 minutes combined in the 09 & 10 playoffs

DOING WORK..

[TheMarkMadsen]

Well, of course they don't as 1st team options, but dh mbenga was the 4th big in minutes, shannon brown was the 4th wing in minutes and derek fisher was a weak link but still was a clutch champion and leader. For their roles they were very good role players. Then you add

artest/ariza
prime odom
prime gasol (top 5 player)
prime kobe (top 3 player)

That amount of talent with the right role players is the definition of stacked.


DJ Mbenga played 28 minutes in the 09/10 playoffs

:oldlol: :oldlol:

Pau Gasol was never top 5 in the league..

are you telling us that during the 09 or 2010 season Pau was better than

Kobe
Bran
Wade
Dwight
KD
Melo
Dirk

etc etc

[swagga]

:roll: :roll:

holy shit can you be any more stupid than this..

Dj Mbenga played 28 minutes combined in the 09 & 10 playoffs

DOING WORK..

Nice try troll.
he played 7-8 minutes a game in 08 and 09 in the regular season. Role player.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2010.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2009.html

[swagga]

because it shows that today's player wouldn't be as good in previous eras, when the 3-point shooting and the resulting spacing didn't exist for their drive-and-kicks to be viable.. they would have to post up in the triangle or another offense, and they don't have equal post skill as their drive-and-kick skill

Oh I get it now, in this thread when you say current wing players wouldn't fit the triangle, you are basically congratulating them for being smart and developing their game and skills for the current era , in which drive and kick is the most efficient style.

That's so kind and rational of you, understanding that players model their game to better adapt to the league they play in. Very insightful thread :applause: Just 5 starred your thread :applause:

[swagga]

DJ Mbenga played 28 minutes in the 09/10 playoffs

:oldlol: :oldlol:

Pau Gasol was never top 5 in the league..

are you telling us that during the 09 or 2010 season Pau was better than

Kobe
Bran
Wade
Dwight
KD
Melo
Dirk

etc etc

So a player that does this in the playoffs is not a top 5 player?
5th in minutes played
2nd in FG made
2nd in FT made
1st in offensive rebounds
1st in defensive rebounds
1st in total rebounds
2nd in blocks
3rd in total points
3rd in rebounds per game
2nd in blocks per game
4th in offensive rating
1st in offensive win shares
1st in win shares
5th in win shares per minute played
6th in box plus minus
1st in value player replacement

total playoffs 20 ppg @ 54%fg 11rpg 3.5 ast 2bpg 2.7 fpg

best ORTG and DRTG on the team

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2010.html

on a side note, the top 3 offensive rebounds players for these playoffs were all lakers (gasol, bynum, odom), wayyy in front of the next player ... who would've thought it? :lol

[JT123]

So a player that does this in the playoffs is not a top 5 player?
5th in minutes played
2nd in FG made
2nd in FT made
1st in offensive rebounds
1st in defensive rebounds
1st in total rebounds
2nd in blocks
3rd in total points
3rd in rebounds per game
2nd in blocks per game
4th in offensive rating
1st in offensive win shares
1st in win shares
5th in win shares per minute played
6th in box plus minus
1st in value player replacement

total playoffs 20 ppg @ 54%fg 11rpg 3.5 ast 2bpg 2.7 fpg

best ORTG and DRTG on the team

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2010.html

on a side note, the top 3 offensive rebounds players for these playoffs were all lakers (gasol, bynum, odom), wayyy in front of the next player ... who would've thought it? :lol
Most stacked team since the 86 Celtics! :eek:

[TheMarkMadsen]

Nice try troll.
he played 7-8 minutes a game in 08 and 09 in the regular season. Role player.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2010.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2009.html

he played 28 minutes combined during the 09 & 10 playoffs

28 minute COMBINED FOR 2 PLAYOFFS

:oldlol: :oldlol:

WTF are you talking about

[TheMarkMadsen]

So a player that does this in the playoffs is not a top 5 player?
5th in minutes played
2nd in FG made
2nd in FT made
1st in offensive rebounds
1st in defensive rebounds
1st in total rebounds
2nd in blocks
3rd in total points
3rd in rebounds per game
2nd in blocks per game
4th in offensive rating
1st in offensive win shares
1st in win shares
5th in win shares per minute played
6th in box plus minus
1st in value player replacement

total playoffs 20 ppg @ 54%fg 11rpg 3.5 ast 2bpg 2.7 fpg

best ORTG and DRTG on the team

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2010.html

on a side note, the top 3 offensive rebounds players for these playoffs were all lakers (gasol, bynum, odom), wayyy in front of the next player ... who would've thought it? :lol


are you serious with this.. :oldlol:

so because he played more games in the playoffs (he got swept every year as the leader of the team, only began playing long in the playoffs when he got with Kobe) that makes him better than Dwight, Lebron ,Wade, Dirk, Melo etc etc

these fuccing trolls are getting out of hand

:facepalm

[TheMarkMadsen]

Top 5 player Pau Gasol coudn't even make the all nba team first or second team and didn't even make an all defensive team

ok buddy :oldlol: :oldlol:

[sdot_thadon]

The best brand of basketball in today's game is when ALL FIVE offensive players are running drive and kicks (Spurs, Warriors, 2011 Mavs), just like the Bulls used to post up ALL FIVE guys.

Tbh, in today's game, teams with a ball-dominant, low-assisted PG that hogs all the drive-and-kicks for himself actually don't win - see Clippers, Nash's Suns, or any team like that... Lebron's teams are even more suboptimal because they have TWO heavily ball-dominant, low-assisted players that hog all the drive-and-kicks.

Otoh, the teams that actually win distribute the drive-and-kicks more evenly because their point guards actually don't dominate the ball that much - ttony parker and steph curry have the lowest time of possession of any starting point guard and they are highly-assisted as well:

http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?sort=TOP&dir=1



In MJ's first year using the triangle, he adjusted well enough for the Bulls to win it all, but the reality is that Pippen cost the Bulls the 1990 championship - the Bulls took the Pistons 7 games in 1990 ECF, whereas the Blazers only took them 6 in the Finals.. Based on this, we can conclude that MJ's Bulls would've beaten Clyde's Blazers in 1990 Finals.

Unfortunately, Pippen famously disappeared in the critical Game 7 against Detroit.. He later admitted in the Bad Boys documentary (link below), that "the pressure" caused him to score only 2 points and 1-10 fg in the series-decider:


"..it was the pressure.. As the pressure grew, the pounding grew.. I wasn't able to answer the bell."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h22m15s



Pippen cost Bulls the 1990 championship and a 4-peat.. :facepalm
.
Nothing but deflection. It's a fact Mj didn't let the bulls play the most optimal form of the glorious triangle. They might have won 11 like the celtics.

I don't imagine a sharp guy like you'd overlook the dud Mj put up a year before in the ECF with a tie series and a chance to get within a win of his 1st finals 2 years sooner? You know the time he only took 8 shots? We know he would have beaten the lakers in the finals because they took the Pistons to 6 games while the lakers were swept by them in 4. Choked away a chance at 7 or 8 titles and a possible 5peat.
so much cringe in this dude's logic


For long passages of time, it was easy to forget Jordan was even in Wednesday's game. He seemed "almost in a sleepwalk," Detroit TV commentator Dick Motta said, taking only four shots per half.

[3ball]

You still didn't answer this either.


So MJ didn't even allow the bulls to play the most optimal form of this glorious system?


Optimal enough to go 6/6

[nba_55]

swagga is good. Owning the kids. :applause:

[riseagainst]

So a player that does this in the playoffs is not a top 5 player?
5th in minutes played
2nd in FG made
2nd in FT made
1st in offensive rebounds
1st in defensive rebounds
1st in total rebounds
2nd in blocks
3rd in total points
3rd in rebounds per game
2nd in blocks per game
4th in offensive rating
1st in offensive win shares
1st in win shares
5th in win shares per minute played
6th in box plus minus
1st in value player replacement

total playoffs 20 ppg @ 54%fg 11rpg 3.5 ast 2bpg 2.7 fpg

best ORTG and DRTG on the team

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2010.html

on a side note, the top 3 offensive rebounds players for these playoffs were all lakers (gasol, bynum, odom), wayyy in front of the next player ... who would've thought it? :lol

by that logic, Kobe is the 3rd greatest scorer of all time.
:coleman:

[Hey Yo]

Nothing but deflection. It's a fact Mj didn't let the bulls play the most optimal form of the glorious triangle. They might have won 11 like the celtics.

I don't imagine a sharp guy like you'd overlook the dud Mj put up a year before in the ECF with a tie series and a chance to get within a win of his 1st finals 2 years sooner? You know the time he only took 8 shots? We know he would have beaten the lakers in the finals because they took the Pistons to 6 games while the lakers were swept by them in 4. Choked away a chance at 7 or 8 titles and a possible 5peat.
so much cringe in this dude's logic
He blamed Detroit's "Jordan Rules" for MJ's 8FGA game 5.....which was probably the biggest game of his career at that time.

[sdot_thadon]

He blamed Detroit's "Jordan Rules" for MJ's 8FGA game 5.....which was probably the biggest game of his career at that time.
Not probably it, was. He had a Lebron type passive game it seems.

[3ball]

He blamed Detroit's "Jordan Rules" for MJ's 8FGA game 5.....which was probably the biggest game of his career at that time.


EXACTLY - it was the first game where MJ faced the Jordan Rules.. In Game 3, MJ hit the game-winner over Rodman to take 2-1 series lead, which prompted Isiah and Dumars to stay up all night devise the Jordan Rules before Game 5.. Here's Isiah and Dumars talking about when the rules were conceived (from Bad Boys documentary):

Dumars and Isiah:


"Isiah said he sat out by the water for 4-5 hours (after Game 3 thinking about MJ)".

"Dumars and I were on the phone for hours, talking about 23 in red."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h05m33s



Chuck Daly specifically discussing the "Jordan Rules":


"We knew how dangerous he was. And we knew we had to devise something special.. And so we most definitely devised, what we called, THE JORDAN RULES"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m49s

[sdot_thadon]

EXACTLY - it was the first game where MJ faced the Jordan Rules.. In Game 3, MJ hit the game-winner over Rodman to take 2-1 series lead, which prompted Isiah and Dumars to stay up all night devise the Jordan Rules before Game 5.. Here's Isiah and Dumars talking about when the rules were conceived (from Bad Boys documentary):

Dumars and Isiah:


"Isiah said he sat out by the water for 4-5 hours (after Game 3 thinking about MJ)".

"Dumars and I were on the phone for hours, talking about 23 in red."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h05m33s



Chuck Daly specifically discussing the "Jordan Rules":


"We knew how dangerous he was. And we knew we had to devise something special.. And so we most definitely devised, what we called, THE JORDAN RULES"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m49s

More bs I see. Why didn't he use his superior mid range game, or his 2 foot jumping or off ball passing then....or make a few Pippens to help him out. According to you he could do these things.

[3ball]

More bs I see. Why didn't he use his superior mid range game, or his 2 foot jumping or off ball passing then....or make a few Pippens to help him out. According to you he could do these things.
:confusedshrug: .. It doesn't matter what happened in that series, because we know his playoff run that year (1989) was a far bigger accomplishment and was done with a worse supporting cast than Lebron's 2009 and 2010 Cavs:

We've already established that Lebron's supporting cast added enough help on top of his 28/8/7/49 to win 66 games in 2009, while MJ's supporting cast only added enough help to his 33/8/8/54 to win 47 games in 1989.

If you think that all 19 of the Cavs' higher win total was due to worse competition (and not better supporting cast), then consider how much better that makes MJ's playoff stats look, since they came against far better competition... Lebron's 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl playoff averages in 2009 are invalidated compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages in 1989, due to facing vastly inferior competition..

Of course, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast was better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This of course, must be true.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of higher-producing veterans, a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.. MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" that MJ faced (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m52s) were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast - the superior competition Jordan faced and 1 man show he that was is underscored by the Bulls being a 6-seed, and severe underdog in every series, compared to the Cavs being the #1 seed and favorite to make the Finals.

[3ball]

You've just spent the last season trying to prove lebron played a less optimal style of ball to right now concede


Instead of 1 player doing all the drive and kicks (Lebron, CP3's teams, etc), the best brand of basketball in today's game is when ALL FIVE offensive players are running drive and kicks (i.e. the Spurs, Warriors, 2011 Mavs), just like the Bulls used to post up ALL FIVE guys - these are equal-opportunity offenses.

In the Bulls' case, MJ's elite ability as an off-ball player allowed his team to run an optimal, equal-opportunity offense, and therefore the best brand of basketball, which prevented less-talented teams from pulling upsets by playing a better brand of basketball.. This contrasts from Lebron's game, whose ball-dominance and lack of off-ball ability prevents his teams from playing the best brand of basketball, which gives equal or less-talented opponents the opportunity to pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

Of course, for the triangle to work, you need to have one of the best post players in the game, which MJ was.. Today's 3-and-D bots wouldn't cut it in the triangle, or any offense back when paint-camping and the lack of 3-point shooting led to perpetually packed paints, and when post and midrange were the remaining options in the absence of the 3-point shooting necessary to make drive-and-kick a viable.
.

[sdot_thadon]

EXACTLY - it was the first game where MJ faced the Jordan Rules.. In Game 3, MJ hit the game-winner over Rodman to take 2-1 series lead, which prompted Isiah and Dumars to stay up all night devise the Jordan Rules before Game 5.. Here's Isiah and Dumars talking about when the rules were conceived (from Bad Boys documentary):

Dumars and Isiah:


"Isiah said he sat out by the water for 4-5 hours (after Game 3 thinking about MJ)".

"Dumars and I were on the phone for hours, talking about 23 in red."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h05m33s



Chuck Daly specifically discussing the "Jordan Rules":


"We knew how dangerous he was. And we knew we had to devise something special.. And so we most definitely devised, what we called, THE JORDAN RULES"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m49s

Lies.

On the afternoon of April 3, 1988, Jordan embarrassed Detroit by scoring 59 points in a nationally televised game that Chicago won 112-110. That wasn’t the first time Jordan had worn out the Pistons—he had gone for 49, 47, 61 and 49 against them during various games in previous seasons. But after the 59-point effort, Detroit coach Chuck Daly had seen enough. “We made up our minds right then and there that Michael Jordan was not going to beat us by himself again,” says Daly. “We had to commit to a total team concept to get it done.”

So Daly and his assistants at the time, Ron Rothstein and Dick Versace, created a defensive game plan just for Jordan. Each Piston had specific responsibilities: Jordan has the ball on the wing, you go there, you do this; Jordan is posted up on the right box, you check him there, you watch for this, and so on. Collectively these responsibilities became known as the Jordan Rules.


Do you ever research your stuff, or do you just make shit up?

[Smoke117]

The triangle offense was at it's most pure and best run during the 94 season when Jordan WASN'T THERE...so I don't know what you are trying to prove.

[swagga]

The triangle offense was at it's most pure and best run during the 94 season when Jordan WASN'T THERE...so I don't know what you are trying to prove.

damn, in cold blood :oldlol:

[3ball]

The triangle offense was at it's most pure and best run during the 94 season when Jordan WASN'T THERE...so I don't know what you are trying to prove.
The triangle was run in a form pure enough to go 6/6.

**********s

[3ball]

Lies.


Do you ever research your stuff, or do you just make shit up?


I didn't make anything up - it's in the Bad Boys documentary - you just didn't want to pony up the $2.99 it costs to watch the bad boys documentary on youtube.

According to the Bad Boys documentary, Isiah and Dumars stayed up all night after Game 3 trying to figure out how to beat MJ... Once they figured out various new schemes, they called up the assistant coach and said they had a new way to beat MJ, which they implemented in Games 4 through 6:

Assistant Coach Brendan Malone:


"It's 2 o'clock in the morning... I get a call from Isiah.. He says he and Dumars finally figured out a way to beat Jordan."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h05m50s


These are FACTS from the players' and coaches' own mouths.
.

[swagga]

The triangle was run in a form pure enough to go 6/6.

**********s

not even MJ deflected more in his DPOY year tbh :applause: goat commitment tbh :applause:

[sdot_thadon]

I didn't make anything up - it's in the Bad Boys documentary - you just didn't want to pony up the $2.99 it costs to watch the bad boys documentary on youtube.

According to the Bad Boys documentary, Isiah and Dumars stayed up all night after Game 3 trying to figure out how to beat MJ... Once they figured out various new schemes, they called up the assistant coach and said they had a new way to beat MJ, which they implemented in Games 4 through 6:

Assistant Coach Brendan Malone:


"It's 2 o'clock in the morning... I get a call from Isiah.. He says he and Dumars finally figured out a way to beat Jordan."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqC74bv46Z8&t=1h05m50s


These are FACTS from the players' and coaches' own mouths.
.
I just gave a relevant quote from the time it actually occured. If you stopped being a lazy bastard and do real research you'd find plenty of evidence stating the Jordan rules were in effect the entire 89 season. Bbbbbbut agenda.