Seems like most players in the 80's/90's shot 45-50% from midrange

[3ball]

Let's take Magic Johnson - he attempted 12.1 two-pointers per game for his career at 54.1%... If we "remove" his at-rim shots from this percentage, we can arrive at his midrange percentage.

So let's take the most conservative numbers possible to establish a "floor" for his midrange percentage.. Let's assume that Magic takes 35% of his shots at the rim at 70% field goal percentage (these are Lebron's league-leading levels).. So the remaining 65% of his shots are midrange at "X" percentage... Here's the simple formula - solve for "X" below:

0.35(70%) + 0.65(X) = 54.1% overall 2-pt field goal %

X = 45.53% .... This is Magic's lowest possible midrange percentage, under the very conservative assumptions that 35% of his shots are at-rim shots at a 70% clip (these are Lebron's league-leading levels).

I would imagine the calculation is similar for most players in previous eras.. Btw, if we just look at Magic's game, we can see he had elite midrange touch and repertoire, like most players back then:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CWHaJoNjeI&t=4m15s
.

[kshutts1]

This is one of the laziest, more stupid, posts you have ever made.

Title says "most players". You mention literally just one player.
You're generally a stats-geek (made up or not), and in this you post theories and approximations.

Who let you out of the padded room today?

[sdot_thadon]

Let's take Magic Johnson - he attempted 12.1 two-pointers per game for his career at 54.1%... If we "remove" his at-rim shots from this percentage, we can arrive at his midrange percentage.

So let's take the most conservative numbers possible to establish a "floor" for his midrange percentage.. Let's assume that Magic takes 35% of his shots at the rim at 70% field goal percentage (these are Lebron's league-leading levels).. So the remaining 65% of his shots are midrange at "X" percentage... Here's the simple formula - solve for "X" below:

0.35(70%) + 0.65(X) = 54.1% overall 2-pt field goal %

X = 45.53% .... This is Magic's lowest possible midrange percentage, under the very conservative assumptions that he 35% of his shots are at-rim shots at a 70% clip (these are Lebron's league-leading levels).

I would imagine the calculation is similar for most players in previous eras.. Btw, if we just look at Magic's game, we can see he had elite midrange touch and repertoire, like most players back then:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CWHaJoNjeI&t=4m15s
:biggums:
So in this "scientific" deduction we're also assuming post game didn't exist either, nor transition buckets.......nice.

[ralph_i_el]

illegal D made it real easy to shoot open midrange J's

Give players today straight up 1 on 1 in the midrange and plenty of them will shoot a high%

or are you trying to insinuate that players were better shooter then, even though today a massively high premium is placed on shooting, and we have more skilled shooters from deep than ever before?

[3ball]

:biggums:
So in this "scientific" deduction we're also assuming post game didn't exist either, nor transition buckets.......nice.
We're calculating the field goal percentage on midrange shots - midrange signifies the DISTANCE of the shot and therefore includes all shots from the post that are of midrange DISTANCE.. Ditto on shots in transition that are from midrange distance.

For post or transition shots that are at the rim, they fall under our at-rim assumption.. It couldn't be simpler.

[sdot_thadon]

We're calculating the field goal percentage on midrange shots - midrange signifies the DISTANCE of the shot and therefore includes all shots from the post that are of midrange DISTANCE.. Ditto on shots in transition that are from midrange distance.

For post or transition shots that are at the rim, they fall under our at-rim assumption.. It couldn't be simpler.
Stick to gifs bro, hooks aren't midrange jumpers nor floaters or runners either. Lazy assumption.

[3ball]

or are you trying to insinuate that players were better shooter then, even though today a massively high premium is placed on shooting, and we have more skilled shooters from deep than ever before?


Exactly - FROM DEEP... Not from midrange.

Players in previous eras were better shooters from midrange - that's obvious... Nowadays, they're better shooters at 3-pointers.

[3ball]

Stick to gifs bro, hooks aren't midrange jumpers nor floaters or runners either. Lazy assumption.
They are if they are from midrange DISTANCE you dumbass

[sdot_thadon]

They are if they are from midrange DISTANCE you dumbass
Look, just be honest. We all know where this thread is going, so just state the point out front. Quit beating around the bush. For the record when we discuss mid range game nobody is talking about hooks and shit pal. No need to be upset.

[3ball]

Look, just be honest. We all know where this thread is going, so just state the point out front. Quit beating around the bush. For the record when we discuss mid range game nobody is talking about hooks and shit pal. No need to be upset.
midrange efficiency signifies shots from midrange DISTANCE - the type of shot doesn't matter.

[ShawkFactory]

Look, just be honest. We all know where this thread is going, so just state the point out front. Quit beating around the bush. For the record when we discuss mid range game nobody is talking about hooks and shit pal. No need to be upset.
Seriously. Just say the point 3ball.

We all know it has something to do with optimal brands of basketball

[GimmeThat]

Let's take Magic Johnson - he attempted 12.1 two-pointers per game for his career at 54.1%... If we "remove" his at-rim shots from this percentage, we can arrive at his midrange percentage.

So let's take the most conservative numbers possible to establish a "floor" for his midrange percentage.. Let's assume that Magic takes 35% of his shots at the rim at 70% field goal percentage (these are Lebron's league-leading levels).. So the remaining 65% of his shots are midrange at "X" percentage... Here's the simple formula - solve for "X" below:

0.35(70%) + 0.65(X) = 54.1% overall 2-pt field goal %

X = 45.53% .... This is Magic's lowest possible midrange percentage, under the very conservative assumptions that 35% of his shots are at-rim shots at a 70% clip (these are Lebron's league-leading levels).

I would imagine the calculation is similar for most players in previous eras.. Btw, if we just look at Magic's game, we can see he had elite midrange touch and repertoire, like most players back then:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CWHaJoNjeI&t=4m15s
.

so out of Magic's 12.1 attempts, you assume that 4 of them comes at near the basket, with him making roughly 3 out of 4. and for the rest of the 8 attempts, he makes 3-4 of them.

lets just go ahead and say those 70% near the basket rate are a fair assumption for Magic's level of play. 12.1 x .70 gives us close to 8.5 and his career average is .541, which 12.1 x .541 gives us 6.5.

so at the 12 attempts per game rate, Magic couldn't get to the rim 2 times and had to settle for a lower percentage shot.

6.5/.70 = 9.28

or that his team put him in the position to attempt close to 3 attempts a game where he isn't near the Lebron by the basket efficient level.


so can Lebron play the Center position or not?

[3ball]

Seriously. Just say the point 3ball.



the point is that even when we use assumptions for Magic's at-rim stats** that minimize Magic's midrange percentage, the worst Magic could've shot from midrange is 45.5%.

there's no ulterior motive other than to show that Magic and most players in the 80's had elite midrange efficiency.. i don't need to point out that that today's 3-point-shooting, drive-and-kick ho's wouldn't make it back in previous eras when they would have to shoot midrange and post up... everyone knows that - no need to beat a dead horse on that one.. :rolleyes:

** OP assumes 35% of Magic's shots were at-rim, at a 70% clip - these are Lebron's league-leading levels - anything LESS than these assumptions increases Magic's midrange percentage

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Find me legitimate shooting stats or **** off. Assumptions are worth jack shit.

[3ball]

:facepalm

[3ball]

Find me legitimate shooting stats or **** off. Assumptions are worth jack shit.


35% of shots at-rim multiplied by 70% clip + 65% of shots from midrange multiplied by "X" clip = 54.1% overall 2-pt field goal % for Magic..

0.35(0.70) + X(0.65) = 0.541

The above assumptions for Magic's at-rim proportion (35% of his shots) and efficiency (70% at-rim conversion rate) are Lebron's at-rim numbers - they are ridiculously conservative (unrealistically so), so they yield the lowest midrange percentage possible ("X"), which is 45.5%.

Anything lower than Lebron's at-rim stats of 35% of shots at rim and 70% efficiency at rim, make Magic's midrange percentage HIGHER.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

That's not a link to a site with actual information so I don't care.

[sdot_thadon]

Assumptions, this is what he's been reduced to.:applause:

[ralph_i_el]

From the games I've seen, Magic scored a lot from the in-between zone. I guess you could consider it short midrange, but really I'm talking about 3-8 ft from the hoop.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Well, Magic killed it from mid-range in the 1984 Finals, we do have that info...

At Rim: 16/28 FG (57.1%)

In Paint (Overall): 16/28 FG (57.1%)

Mid-Range: 31/55 FG (56.4%)

And he put up his "usual" PPG/FG% numbers, playing very well despite choking badly more than once.

By the mid-80's Magic had developed a reliable mid-range game, always improving on his shooting... Teams couldn't really give him the space anymore but the Celtics did just that, to prevent his driving/passing and to double Kareem... Magic was drilling them shots though.


As a sidenote, here's Bird's shooting numbers for those same Finals...

At Rim: 31/55 FG (56.4% FG)

In Paint (Overall): 35/63 FG (55.6% FG)

Mid-Range: 23/59 FG (39.0% FG)

Larry scored 27.4 PPG but "only" on 48.4% shooting instead of his "usual" 50+% during his prime... So, it's clear to tell that it was because his mid-range %'s were down for that series, from his "normal" shooting, most likely due to Michael Cooper being his main defender; Coop was on him like a cheap shirt but Bird used his size/strength/skill to kill him in the paint and on them boards.

[sdot_thadon]

Well, Magic killed it from mid-range in the 1984 Finals, we do have that info...

At Rim: 16/28 FG (57.1%)

In Paint (Overall): 16/28 FG (57.1%)

Mid-Range: 31/55 FG (56.4%)

And he put up his "usual" PPG/FG% numbers, playing very well despite choking badly more than once.

By the mid-80's Magic had developed a reliable mid-range game, always improving on his shooting... Teams couldn't really give him the space anymore but the Celtics did just that, to prevent his driving/passing and to double Kareem... Magic was drilling them shots though.


As a sidenote, here's Bird's shooting numbers for those same Finals...

At Rim: 31/55 FG (56.4% FG)

In Paint (Overall): 35/63 FG (55.6% FG)

Mid-Range: 23/59 FG (39.0% FG)

Larry scored 27.4 PPG but "only" on 48.4% shooting instead of his "usual" 50+% during his prime... So, it's clear to tell that it was because his mid-range %'s were down for that series, from his "normal" shooting, most likely due to Michael Cooper being his main defender; Coop was on him like a cheap shirt but Bird used his size/strength/skill to kill him in the paint and on them boards.
Great post.:applause:
Thanks for using real numbers.

[3ball]

Great post.:applause:
Thanks for using real numbers.
Agreed.. Great post by ShaqisGoat.

His post supports the statistical reality that Magic's midrange fg% was at least 45.5% for his career, given he shoots 54.1% from 2-pt range for his career and his at-rim stats couldn't have been higher than 35% of shots at-rim, at a 70% clip (Lebron's at-rim stats).

Also, ShaqisGoat's stats show that Magic didn't take anywhere near 35% of his shots at the rim, so it's no surprise that he shot well over 50% from midrange in that series.

What we learned itt: Magic was ELITE from midrange.

[sdot_thadon]

Agreed.. Great post by ShaqisGoat.

His post supports the statistical reality that Magic's midrange fg% was at least 45.5% for his career, given he shoots 54.1% from 2-pt range for his career and his at-rim stats couldn't have been higher than 35% of shots at-rim, at a 70% clip (Lebron's at-rim stats).

Also, ShaqisGoat's stats show that Magic didn't take anywhere near 35% of his shots at the rim, so it's no surprise that he shot well over 50% from midrange in that series.

What we learned itt: Magic was ELITE from midrange.
From one series. Gotcha.

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-28-2015/296C64.gif


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-11-2015/zbklxS.gif


These kinds of shots were the standard types of shots that players SOUGHT to get off back when defenders didn't have to guard 3-pointers and were allowed to remain in the paint without being within 'armslength' of anyone - the higher number of perpetual paint defenders prevented penetrators from getting all the way to the rim, which forced guys like Magic, MJ, and everyone to pull-up from midrange distance..

Nowadays, players like Lebron and Klay Thompson run from these shots like the plague.. contested and midrange.. For Lebron it's a big problem, since the higher difficulty, level of contest, and lower efficiency of these shots make them the shots defenses give up in crunch time.
.

[sdot_thadon]

From one series. Gotcha.
And not only that, according to your model magic>Bird from midrange and bird~lebron. We learned alot today.

[3ball]

And not only that, according to your model magic>Bird from midrange and bird~lebron. We learned alot today.
Magic shot 54.1% from 2-point range.. That's a fact.

Out of 2-pointers, there is at-rim, and midrange.. Assuming Magic has Lebron's at-rim stats (35% of shots at rim with 70% efficiency), then Magic's midrange stats would be exactly 65% of shots from midrange at 45.5% efficiency.

Magic's midrange stats from the 1984 Finals show that he shot over 45.5% from midrange (not surprising since obviously, Magic's at-rim stats weren't as high as our purposefully-conservative assumption), AND midrange shots constituted the biggest proportion of his shot attempts.
.

[Hey Yo]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-11-2015/zbklxS.gif
You're actually calling that a mid-range shot?

:biggums:

[90sgoat]

Nowadays, players like Lebron and Klay Thompson run from these shots like the plague.. contested and midrange.. For Lebron it's a big problem, since the higher difficulty, level of contest, and lower efficiency of these shots make them the shots defenses give up in crunch time.
.

Correct.

Those kind of shots were bread and butter for every position from point guard to power forward. If you couldn't hit a mid range with daylight then you had no business being on a team.

I stopped watching after Jordan retired, when I began watching again around 2000, something strange had taken place. Players now bricked and bricked and bricked open mid range shots. Of course this was because of the new generation of straight from high school or 1 year in college players who all wanted to 'be like Mike', players like Vince Carter who only saw the dunks of MJ but not the fundamentals.

THAT is why the league needed to open up the game by removing hand checking and disallowing paint camping. New players simply couldn't hit open jumpers anymore, there was a distinct drop in fundamentals.

[3ball]

:biggums:

You're actually calling that a mid-range shot?



Midrange efficiency means efficiency from the midrange DISTANCE.. Magic's shot was from about 11-13 feet out near the elbow - here's the other angle:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-11-2015/Ra0m-b.gif


Again, these kinds of shots were the standard types of shots that players SOUGHT to get off back when defenders didn't have to guard 3-pointers and were allowed to remain in the paint without being within 'armslength' of anyone - the higher number of perpetual paint defenders prevented penetrators from getting all the way to the rim, which forced guys like Magic, MJ, and everyone to pull-up from midrange distance..

Nowadays, players like Lebron and Klay Thompson run from these shots like the plague.. contested and midrange.. For Lebron it's a big problem, since the higher difficulty, level of contest, and lower efficiency of these shots make them the shots defenses give up in crunch time.
.

[Hey Yo]

The release of the shot wasn't close to 11-13ft.

find a better gif(s)..... preferably a set shot or jumper.


btw, an 11 footer is more of a short 2, than mid-range.

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-11-2015/Ra0m-b.gif


the release of the shot wasn't close to 11-13ft.



Regardless, it was a contested, midrange shot, which were standard shots that players SOUGHT to get off in previous eras when defenders didn't have to guard 3-pointers and were allowed to remain in the paint without being within "armslength" of anyone - the higher number of perpetual paint defenders prevented penetrators from getting all the way to the rim, which forced guys like Magic, MJ, and everyone to pull-up from midrange distance..

Nowadays, players like Lebron and Klay Thompson run from these shots like the plague.. contested and midrange.. For Lebron it's a big problem, since the higher difficulty, level of contest, and lower efficiency of these shots make them the shots defenses give up in crunch time.
.

[Hey Yo]

The release of the shot wasn't close to 11-13ft.

find a better gif(s)..... preferably a set shot or jumper.

[3ball]

The release of the shot wasn't close to 11-13ft.

find a better gif(s)..... preferably a set shot or jumper.
Regardless, it was a contested, midrange shot, which were standard shots that players SOUGHT to get off in previous eras when defenders didn't have to guard 3-pointers and were allowed to remain in the paint without being within "armslength" of anyone - the higher number of perpetual paint defenders prevented penetrators from getting all the way to the rim, which forced guys like Magic, MJ, and everyone to pull-up from midrange distance..

Nowadays, players like Lebron and Klay Thompson run from these shots like the plague.. contested and midrange.. For Lebron it's a big problem, since the higher difficulty, level of contest, and lower efficiency of these shots make them the shots defenses give up in crunch time.

[Hey Yo]

It isn't about where the release is - it's about where the player takes off from, which is about 15 feet on this particular shot.

Regardless, it was a contested, midrange shot
So if a player jumps from just inside the foul line and finger rolls it near the rim...... its considered a mid-range shot?

still waiting for the elite set shot and jumper mid-range gifs.


I'll check back later expecting to see the numerous gif examples

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-11-2015/Ra0m-b.gif


So if a player jumps from just inside the foul line and finger rolls it near the rim...... its considered a mid-range shot?



Good point.. But Magic's release wasn't anywhere near the rim - it was still a midrange shot based on where he RELEASED it.. So what are we arguing about.

Contested, midrange shots like the gif above were standard shots that players SOUGHT to get off in previous era environments where defenders didn't have to guard 3-pointers and were allowed to remain in the paint without being within "armslength" of anyone - the higher number of perpetual paint defenders prevented penetrators from getting all the way to the rim, which forced guys like Magic, MJ, and everyone else to pull-up from midrange like Magic's shot.

Nowadays, players like Lebron and Klay Thompson run from these shots like the plague.. contested and midrange.. For Lebron it's a big problem, since the higher difficulty, level of contest, and lower efficiency of these shots make them the shots defenses give up in crunch time.
.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Here are Magic and Bird's highlights from game2 of the 1984 Finals:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3cpGY9kThY

As you can see, Johnson was doing most damage from mid-range; people like to act as if Magic was - always - an average shooter though :rolleyes: Celtics were playing him wrong there, you can say, but thinking about it, there's no clear way to play a dude like him, he would hurt you in many ways, he would hurt you regardless.

If you watch Bird's highlights from those Finals is also clear that he wasn't shooting like he normally did (hence "only" the 48.4% FG) even if still doing his thing from mid-range and obviously needing major defensive attention; Michael Cooper wasn't letting him breath, keeping up with his off-ball play and contesting most shots... Bird did most of his scoring in the paint, while also eating them on the boards, like he should've against a defender like Coop, who was the one guarding him the most.

[Hey Yo]

Good point.. But Magic's release wasn't anywhere near the rim - it was still a midrange shot based on where he RELEASED it. So what are we arguing about.
No it wasn't............you're ****ing high!

still waiting for those set shot and jumper mid-range gifs.

[3ball]

No it wasn't............you're ****ing high!

still waiting for those set shot and jumper mid-range gifs.
He released it right after he jumped.

But who cares - we know that MOST of Magic's shots were midrange shots - Shaqisgoat just posted stats from the 84' Finals and most of Magic's shots were from midrange.

Contested, midrange shots like the gif above were standard shots that players SOUGHT to get off in previous era environments where defenders didn't have to guard 3-pointers and were allowed to remain in the paint without being within "armslength" of anyone - the higher number of perpetual paint defenders prevented penetrators from getting all the way to the rim, which forced guys like Magic, MJ, and everyone else to pull-up from midrange like Magic's shot.

Nowadays, players like Lebron and Klay Thompson run from these shots like the plague.. contested and midrange.. For Lebron it's a big problem, since the higher difficulty, level of contest, and lower efficiency of these shots make them the shots defenses give up in crunch time.