The Curious Case of Wilt Chamberlain's Free Throws (Video and testimony)

[CavaliersFTW]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-2PuoNIewMp0/VfIBIFHVkvI/AAAAAAAAHGU/LAT8nK2N2M4/s640-Ic42/WiltFreeThrowsYT.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8fn1IaTMQM

All the theories, video and testimony I could find diving into the topic of Wilt's free throws :cheers:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-_R-DHlkwbUY/VfIAo0pCg8I/AAAAAAAAHGE/1us9LXtO_O8/s0-Ic42/Wilt%252520Chamberlain%252520Foul%252520Line%25252 0Blues.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-fe4Ni9coRas/T0noVgi85OI/AAAAAAAADBM/_1tkKlTPhDI/s0/November%252028%252C%25201956%2520-%2520Wilt%2520Dunks%2520his%2520free%2520throws.jp g

[inclinerator]

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2817947/billbored.gif

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

He was a bad freethrow shooter. Not really sure what about that is so profound :oldlol:

[Asukal]

6. It's all in his head. :lol :oldlol:

ILt was a mental midget. Proven by his choking record and further proven by those testimonies. :oldlol:

"Wilt will say he is the greatest at everything". :roll:

[Duffy Pratt]

It's not just Wilt. I've read that Shaq shot free throws pretty well in practice. In 2002, Bruce Bowen led the league in three point percentage, with 44% and yet shot a dismal 40% from the line. Last year Igoudala's free throws dropped to 42% in the playoffs, for no discernible reason, and have dropped steadily year by year.

Rick Barry is right. Anyone can shoot 75% or better underhand, and its hard for me to imagine why its taboo. Was Barry less of a man because he shot his 90% from the line like a girl?

[AirFederer]

Ilt happened.

[warriorfan]

So Wilt shoots 80% free throws in practice regularly...then shoots sub 40% in the Finals.





Well I'm glad we have finally established that Wilt was a huge choker. :applause:

[kennethgriffin]

its cause the further he went in his career the farther he shot behind the free throw line


and he shot them so half assed it wasnt even funny. it was just sad how much he didnt give a f*ck


for a year or 2 he used to jump over the line and scoop in layups. then they banned that


one of the biggest mysteries was how well he shot free throws during his 100 point game. considering he sucked all season


but for some reason during that game he dropped like 90%

didnt make sense


which is just 1 more reason why i don't count that record. intentional fouls to get the ball back quicker. everything about that game smells fishy

[Psileas]

It's not just Wilt. I've read that Shaq shot free throws pretty well in practice. In 2002, Bruce Bowen led the league in three point percentage, with 44% and yet shot a dismal 40% from the line. Last year Igoudala's free throws dropped to 42% in the playoffs, for no discernible reason, and have dropped steadily year by year.

Rick Barry is right. Anyone can shoot 75% or better underhand, and its hard for me to imagine why its taboo. Was Barry less of a man because he shot his 90% from the line like a girl?

+1
I mean, really. Who would be stupid enough to think that a guy who probably belongs in the top 1% arm strength-wise is unable to shoot a FT unless he shoots it underhand (I'm not even talking about Wilt, who was a one-in-millions kind of specimen)? Maybe some ISH trolls, but they barely qualify for having even the basic intelligence, so pretty much nobody.
However, Wilt should not have changed that many styles of shooting. He shot a bearable 61-63% in college, he should have tried to make small changes to this technique and keep/improve his %'s as he was bulking up (which reduces accuracy), not change it completely into something he had never tried before.

[NuggetsFan]

Kinda interesting how the crowd/Wilt was so insecure about it. Wonder how he'd fair in today's league. Watching a guy like D.Jordan go to the FT line during the intentional foul bullshit is probably as much pressure as you'll face in the NBA. Especially with the 24/7 news cycle that basically turns it into a joke.

From reading all that seems like Wilt would have hated it :lol. Hard to say if it's true or not but if he did shoot that well in HS on similar volume appears to be mostly mental.

[AceManIII]

Great job, OP! Very interesting..

Mind doing a topic next on why Wilt couldn't match his regular season stats in the playoffs next?

[TheMarkMadsen]

"they knew that it was a damn mental thing with me"

pretty much sums up his playoff career

[SyRyanYang]

We knew Wilt was a bigger choker than LeBron is, there is nothing curious about it.

[Psileas]

Great job, OP! Very interesting..

Mind doing a topic next on why Wilt couldn't match his regular season stats in the playoffs next?

No, because it has been done to death and it has been proven that Wilt wasn't anywhere near a choker (on the very contrary, he was a really great do-or-die performer and has even made playoff game winning FT's, showing that he was very often making them when it really counted), but, instead, his regular season stats not matching his playoffs stats is logically very explainable: a combination of much higher defensive playoff competition, probably higher than any player has ever faced, including players of his own era (when it comes to his season by season dropoffs) and, when it comes to his overall numbers, also, a game playoff distribution that favored the seasons when he cut down his scoring.
Thanks for playing.

[LAZERUSS]

No, because it has been done to death and it has been proven that Wilt wasn't anywhere near a choker (on the very contrary, he was a really great do-or-die performer and has even made playoff game winning FT's, showing that he was very often making them when it really counted), but, instead, his regular season stats not matching his playoffs stats is logically very explainable: a combination of much higher defensive playoff competition, probably higher than any player has ever faced, including players of his own era (when it comes to his season by season dropoffs) and, when it comes to his overall numbers, also, a game playoff distribution that favored the seasons when he cut down his scoring.
Thanks for playing.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[SpanishACB]

with the amount of crap reporters/players say today on daily basis I don't know how you can still use all this "testimony" stuff with a straight face

[jongib369]

Great job, OP! Very interesting..

Mind doing a topic next on why Wilt couldn't match his regular season stats in the playoffs next?

No, because it has been done to death and it has been proven that Wilt wasn't anywhere near a choker (on the very contrary, he was a really great do-or-die performer and has even made playoff game winning FT's, showing that he was very often making them when it really counted), but, instead, his regular season stats not matching his playoffs stats is logically very explainable: a combination of much higher defensive playoff competition, probably higher than any player has ever faced, including players of his own era (when it comes to his season by season dropoffs) and, when it comes to his overall numbers, also, a game playoff distribution that favored the seasons when he cut down his scoring.
Thanks for playing.


http://static.fjcdn.com/gifs/Ahhh_7f0918_725474.gif

[Jameerthefear]

Wilt's a choker. What else is new?

[AceManIII]

http://static.fjcdn.com/gifs/Ahhh_7f0918_725474.gif

http://i.imgur.com/7x401HR.gif

[AceManIII]

No, because it has been done to death and it has been proven that Wilt wasn't anywhere near a choker (on the very contrary, he was a really great do-or-die performer and has even made playoff game winning FT's, showing that he was very often making them when it really counted), but, instead, his regular season stats not matching his playoffs stats is logically very explainable: a combination of much higher defensive playoff competition, probably higher than any player has ever faced, including players of his own era (when it comes to his season by season dropoffs) and, when it comes to his overall numbers, also, a game playoff distribution that favored the seasons when he cut down his scoring.
Thanks for playing.

If you believe the bolded, then that would mean you're at odds with the OP so address the OP and the facts the OP has provided. :no:

I actually agree with the rest. :confusedshrug:

[CavaliersFTW]

If you believe the bolded, then that would mean you're at odds with the OP so address the OP and the facts the OP has provided. :no:

I actually agree with the rest. :confusedshrug:
He's not at odds with the OP. Wilt making clutch free throws actually made it into the video.

[Psileas]

If you believe the bolded, then that would mean you're at odds with the OP so address the OP and the facts the OP has provided. :no:

I actually agree with the rest. :confusedshrug:

Ηοw am I at odds? We're not even talking about the same things. It's well known that Wilt disliked shooting FT's, but "choker" is a more general mentality. As for Wilt's performances in do or die games or crucial FT's, we've posted evidence of him performing great/making clutch FT's, so it's not really a matter of what we believe.

[AceManIII]

He's not at odds with the OP. Wilt making clutch free throws actually made it into the video.

So you're trying to say Wilt is a clutch free throw shooter??? If so, the rest of your OP is a huge contradiction.

I know you want to save a fellow Wilt fan...but c'mon....

[CavaliersFTW]

So you're trying to say Wilt is a clutch free throw shooter??? If so, the rest of your OP is a huge contradiction.

I know you want to save a fellow Wilt fan...but c'mon....
It's part of the video. There are no contradictions. If you only pick and choose what you want to watch in the video, you are being dishonest with yourself.

[LAZERUSS]

So you're trying to say Wilt is a clutch free throw shooter??? If so, the rest of your OP is a huge contradiction.

I know you want to save a fellow Wilt fan...but c'mon....

Time-and-again, Chamberlain made CLUTCH FTs. This is a KNOWN fact.

[AceManIII]

It's part of the video. There are no contradictions. If you only pick and choose what you want to watch in the video, you are being dishonest with yourself.

The video mentioned him going 28 out of 32 once and all of a sudden..he's a clutch free throw shooter?!? You're the one picking and choosing...but I see you won't admit you're wrong unless I flood this thread with obvious stats of Wilt shooting poorly from the FT line and his team losing.

I'll do so on Monday...and will even post an old newspaper article (along with other proof) stating how Bill Russell was ACTUALLY the one who was a normally bad, yet clutch free throw shooter.

Lemme repeat: WILT WAS A NOTORIOUSLY POOR FREE THROW SHOOTER.
The narrative of (He "didn't care" about FTs, but made them when it count) is WRONG! :no:

[CavaliersFTW]

The video mentioned him going 28 out of 32 once and all of a sudden..he's a clutch free throw shooter?!? You're the one picking and choosing...but I see you won't admit you're wrong unless I flood this thread with obvious stats of Wilt shooting poorly from the FT line and his team losing.

I'll do so on Monday...and will even post an old newspaper article (along with other proof) stating how Bill Russell was ACTUALLY the one who was a normally bad, yet clutch free throw shooter.

Lemme repeat: WILT WAS A NOTORIOUSLY POOR FREE THROW SHOOTER.
The narrative of (He "didn't care" about FTs, but made them when it count) is WRONG! :no:
The 28 for 32 wasn't the part of the video where clutch was implied. However, immediately following that comment the words clutch are used in the video. Him making the final baskets in "clutch time" in two separate playoff situations to seal the win against Boston in the EDF, and the Warriors in the NBA Finals. You glossed that part over though, it's okay I get it you're not supposed to acknowledge that part it wouldn't fit your agenda. But it is part of the video.

And as for the 2nd bolded part, yes the narrative you propose is wrong but not because of the reason you think it is. The part that is wrong is suggesting he didn't care about free throws. He always cared about them, a great deal. Thus, all that testimony of hard work, experimentation, and the looks of frustration when he's at the line. That's called caring. Him making them in the clutch is actually correct, at least on the occasions that the 1960's narrator proceeds to call Wilt's free throws clutch during 2 different playoff games. I don't have that kind of editing power to fake that. He's an otherwise terrible free throw shooter.

[dunksby]

OP just convinced me Wilt was a mental midget.

[CavaliersFTW]

OP just convinced me Wilt was a mental midget.
Actually you did that yourself years ago, when you let your pride get the best of you.

[dunksby]

Actually you did that yourself years ago, when you let your pride get the best of you.
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/article/media_slots/photos/000/751/375/kIdaI12_original.jpg

[Jameerthefear]

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/article/media_slots/photos/000/751/375/kIdaI12_original.jpg
:roll:

[CavaliersFTW]

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/article/media_slots/photos/000/751/375/kIdaI12_original.jpg
That's like the exact same problem Wilt, Shaq, Rodman etc had. They all appeared to shoot normal percentages in practice. Not in games. No clue why but it's not exactly a list of horrible players.

If you assert it's because they are "chokers" you are making a logical leap. They all seemed to shoot terrible in games regardless of the pressure on their shoulders. It's honestly a mystery until someone comes along and finds a way to turn this enigma on or off in a player.

[warriorfan]

That's like the exact same problem Wilt, Shaq, Rodman etc had. They all appeared to shoot normal percentages in practice. Not in games. No clue why but it's not exactly a list of horrible players.

If you assert it's because they are "chokers" you are making a logical leap. They all seemed to shoot terrible in games regardless of the pressure on their shoulders. It's honestly a mystery until someone comes along and finds a way to turn this enigma on or off in a player.

Wilt shot free throws fine in practice, in real games when there was actual pressure he didn't perform as well.

A choker is a person who performs worse under pressure.

Wilt is a choker.

[CavaliersFTW]

Wilt shot free throws fine in practice, in real games when there was actual pressure he didn't perform as well.

A choker is a person who performs worse under pressure.

Wilt is a choker.
By that definition, so is Dennis Rodman, and Shaquille O'Neal. Just so you're consistent.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt shot free throws fine in practice, in real games when there was actual pressure he didn't perform as well.

A choker is a person who performs worse under pressure.

Wilt is a choker.

Talk about a CHOKER...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aYA0eVyR-4

and yet the clown can only hit 43% in actual games.

And then in the Finals...all the way down to 38%.

Not only that...but the idiot didn't even receive a vote for FMVP, and lost to arguably the worst FMVP in NBA history.

Curry = GOAT CHOKER...

[Jameerthefear]

Talk about a CHOKER...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aYA0eVyR-4

and yet the clown can only hit 43% in actual games.

Not only that...but the idiot didn't even receive a vote for FMVP, and lost to arguably the worst FMVP in NBA history.

Curry = GOAT CHOKER...
Are you retarded? :roll:

[LAZERUSS]

Are you retarded? :roll:

This is a basketball forum, not a Power Rangers forum. Move on.

[warriorfan]

Are you retarded? :roll:

dude is comparing open gym 3 pointers to in game 3 pointers like its the same as shooting free throws

laz has gone full mother fuccing retard :roll:

[dunksby]

That's like the exact same problem Wilt, Shaq, Rodman etc had. They all appeared to shoot normal percentages in practice. Not in games. No clue why but it's not exactly a list of horrible players.

If you assert it's because they are "chokers" you are making a logical leap. They all seemed to shoot terrible in games regardless of the pressure on their shoulders. It's honestly a mystery until someone comes along and finds a way to turn this enigma on or off in a player.
That's what I'm saying, there is no curious case or enigma or whatever rationalization you wanna do to wrap this non-issue in a mysterious air. Some players suck at something and that's it, some of them work at it and get better, others just pretend to. If we are to believe Wilt practiced so hard on FTs and made 80%+ of them in the gym but fell so hard in game situations, well I'm sorry but there is no other explanation than some kind of mental block to put it mildly.

[AirFederer]

Talk about a CHOKER...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aYA0eVyR-4

and yet the clown can only hit 43% in actual games.

And then in the Finals...all the way down to 38%.

Not only that...but the idiot didn't even receive a vote for FMVP, and lost to arguably the worst FMVP in NBA history.

Curry = GOAT CHOKER...
http://cdn.smosh.com/sites/default/files/legacy.images/smosh-pit/022011/chuck-norris-class.gif

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt's a choker. What else is new?

Wilt was a poor FT shooter, but FG shooting has an even greater affect on efficiency...

So, how about we compare FG% shooting in Game 7's of Finals?


Kareem in his three game seven's of his Finals: 48% (24-50)

Magic in his two game seven's of his Finals: 48% (11-23)

Russell in his four game seven's of his Finals: 43% (34-79)

Duncan in his two game seven's of his Finals: 40% (18-45)

Hakeem in his one game seven of the Finals: 40% (10-25)

Bird in his one game seven of his Finals: 33% (6-18)

Kobe in his one game seven of his Finals: 25% (6-24)


How about Wilt?

In his two game seven's of his Finals: 71% (17-24)

BTW, in his one game seven of the Finals against Russell...Wilt outshot Russell from the field by an .875 to .286 margin (7-8 to 2-7.) And overall, in his two game seven's of his Finals, Chamberlain outshot Russell and Reed by a 17-24 to 4-12 margin.

Yep. Wilt "choked" alright.

[AirFederer]

Wilt was a poor FT shooter, but FG shooting has an even greater affect on efficiency...

So, how about we compare FG% shooting in Game 7's of Finals?


Kareem in his three game seven's of his Finals: 48% (24-50)

Magic in his two game seven's of his Finals: 48% (11-23)

Russell in his four game seven's of his Finals: 43% (34-79)

Duncan in his two game seven's of his Finals: 40% (18-45)

Hakeem in his one game seven of the Finals: 40% (10-25)

Bird in his one game seven of his Finals: 33% (6-18)

Kobe in his one game seven of his Finals: 25% (6-24)


How about Wilt?

In his two game seven's of his Finals: 71% (17-24)

BTW, in his one game seven of the Finals against Russell...Wilt outshot Russell from the field by an .875 to .286 margin (7-8 to 2-7.) And overall, in his two game seven's of his Finals, Chamberlain outshot Russell and Reed by a 17-24 to 4-12 margin.

Yep. Wilt "choked" alright.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/gay_dance.gif

[Psileas]

That's what I'm saying, there is no curious case or enigma or whatever rationalization you wanna do to wrap this non-issue in a mysterious air. Some players suck at something and that's it, some of them work at it and get better, others just pretend to. If we are to believe Wilt practiced so hard on FTs and made 80%+ of them in the gym but fell so hard in game situations, well I'm sorry but there is no other explanation than some kind of mental block to put it mildly.

Shooting your FT's (and 3's and whatever) better at practices is the absolute rule, as has shown the pic above, where you see a 69% FT team shoot at 89%. It's obviously a lot easier to shoot when rested and while not having your muscles strained out of having played against real opponents. Nothing mental.

[Asukal]

Shooting your FT's (and 3's and whatever) better at practices is the absolute rule, as has shown the pic above, where you see a 69% FT team shoot at 89%. It's obviously a lot easier to shoot when rested and while not having your muscles strained out of having played against real opponents. Nothing mental.

It's easy to see guys who understand the game by virtue of having played it themselves. This post right here comes from somebody who never played the game. No wonder you guys stan wilt so hard. :rolleyes: :roll: :lol :oldlol:

[Elosha]

Thanks for the info and cites Cavs. Always great to get true insights - good or bad - on all time great players. :cheers:

[dunksby]

Shooting your FT's (and 3's and whatever) better at practices is the absolute rule, as has shown the pic above, where you see a 69% FT team shoot at 89%. It's obviously a lot easier to shoot when rested and while not having your muscles strained out of having played against real opponents. Nothing mental.
What? Shooting FTs is the least straining thing you do in the game.

[Psileas]

What? Shooting FTs is the least straining thing you do in the game.

You obviously didn't understand what I mean: FT's, exactly because they are the least straining thing you do in the game, are something that needs small, fine movements and precision. A strong guy who's battling under the baskets all the time is the most likely one to lose this precision, due to this strain combined with his own strength. As you see, near the end of his career, when shooting his FT's, Wilt was standing 3 feet beyond the line, he was simply flickering his wrist and the ball was still shot as if it had been shot out of a cannon. For a guy like Wilt, it would take a very high level of precision to shoot FT's at a good percentage. A typical smaller player isn't going to need all this and isn't likely to realize how much more difficult it is for a big man to shoot at high %'s.

(Neither is Asukal, btw, but that's not something new).

[Poochymama]

Its definitely a mental issue op, just like it is with Howard. Standing in front of thousands of people, all staring at you, focusing all their attention on you, judging you, if that's not pressure, I don't know what is. I think people really underestimate just how much pressure that is. Wilt is just like Shaq and Howard, their freethows get worse from regular season to playoffs, and then worse again in the finals as the pressure thickens. Can't really compare practice freethows though since players shoot one after the other and get into a rhythm.

[warriorfan]

wilts free throws were a mental issue just like op's obsession with him

[AirFederer]

You obviously didn't understand what I mean: FT's, exactly because they are the least straining thing you do in the game, are something that needs small, fine movements and precision. A strong guy who's battling under the baskets all the time is the most likely one to lose this precision, due to this strain combined with his own strength. As you see, near the end of his career, when shooting his FT's, Wilt was standing 3 feet beyond the line, he was simply flickering his wrist and the ball was still shot as if it had been shot out of a cannon. For a guy like Wilt, it would take a very high level of precision to shoot FT's at a good percentage. A typical smaller player isn't going to need all this and isn't likely to realize how much more difficult it is for a big man to shoot at high %'s.

(Neither is Asukal, btw, but that's not something new).

Sorry, but this makes no sense. We have the same mechanics, no matter the size. When you claim Wilt was a good FT shooter in practice (Laz and Cavs also have him with an "unstoppable fadeaway" in games), it's clear that his horrendous FT shooting in games is 99,99% a mental thing.

Not great in big moments this Wilt, but still great :cheers:

[dunksby]

You obviously didn't understand what I mean: FT's, exactly because they are the least straining thing you do in the game, are something that needs small, fine movements and precision. A strong guy who's battling under the baskets all the time is the most likely one to lose this precision, due to this strain combined with his own strength. As you see, near the end of his career, when shooting his FT's, Wilt was standing 3 feet beyond the line, he was simply flickering his wrist and the ball was still shot as if it had been shot out of a cannon. For a guy like Wilt, it would take a very high level of precision to shoot FT's at a good percentage. A typical smaller player isn't going to need all this and isn't likely to realize how much more difficult it is for a big man to shoot at high %'s.

(Neither is Asukal, btw, but that's not something new).
Yep exactly, that's why Kareem is GOAT, he was a complete package and clutch as ****.

[CavaliersFTW]

Yep exactly, that's why Kareem is GOAT, he was a complete package and clutch as ****.
Couldn't rebound or play defense like Wilt tho. Couldn't even score as well as Wilt when that was his job to be honest.

Career high against Imhoff: 46 points.

Wilt's career high against Imhoff: 100 points.

Not that Kareem isn't a GOAT candidate, he is, but Wilt was better at just about everything - outside of free throws.

[Psileas]

Couldn't rebound or play defense like Wilt tho. Couldn't even score as well as Wilt when that was his job to be honest.

Career high against Imhoff: 46 points.

Wilt's career high against Imhoff: 100 points.

Not that Kareem isn't a GOAT candidate, he is, but Wilt was better at just about everything - outside of free throws.

I can't imagine even a big bodied center like Gilmore or Moses grabbing offensive rebounds at will or catching the ball near the basket vs Wilt and score with easy layups, with Wilt just half-heartedly raising one hand and overall shying away from banging his body against them, practically stepping away, the way Kareem was doing when facing them.

[iznogood]

You obviously didn't understand what I mean: FT's, exactly because they are the least straining thing you do in the game, are something that needs small, fine movements and precision. A strong guy who's battling under the baskets all the time is the most likely one to lose this precision, due to this strain combined with his own strength. As you see, near the end of his career, when shooting his FT's, Wilt was standing 3 feet beyond the line, he was simply flickering his wrist and the ball was still shot as if it had been shot out of a cannon. For a guy like Wilt, it would take a very high level of precision to shoot FT's at a good percentage. A typical smaller player isn't going to need all this and isn't likely to realize how much more difficult it is for a big man to shoot at high %'s.

(Neither is Asukal, btw, but that's not something new).

I'm not buying the size & strength argument.

When I started out as a coach I was also coaching kids and in most countries in Europe kids play using small basketball and lower baskets untill they reach a certain age.

So I shot a ton using this mini hoops and basketballs. And after a short period of time I would normally make more then I would shooting on a regular sized hoop using a regular sized basketball.

We also had a parent 3 pointer competiton at the end of every season and I remember one of the dads, a 6"5' SG who played competitionally back in the days made like 23 or 24 out of 25.

So while I have a lot of respect for Tom Heinson, I don't agree with him on this. I don't think a wrist flick alone would make things better. I've seen people using technique simillar to what he's saying. Slovenian PF Marko Milic, who played for Real Madrid and also stayed with the Phoenix Suns for a year shot that way at the end of his career (ball high above his head and only raising to his toes to shoot). It didn't make him a better shooter.

I agree with What Rick Berry said. The biggest reason was probably the fact the fact that he kept changing his technique. Or maybe his mechanics just wasn't good enough.

[dunksby]

Couldn't rebound or play defense like Wilt tho. Couldn't even score as well as Wilt when that was his job to be honest.

Career high against Imhoff: 46 points.

Wilt's career high against Imhoff: 100 points.

Not that Kareem isn't a GOAT candidate, he is, but Wilt was better at just about everything - outside of free throws.
Wilt was at his best as a defensive specialist, never was as skilled as Kareem, nor as successfull. Kareem is just flat out the better player and his basketball career just trumps Wilt from HS to the NBA. You love to drool over stats, but the reality is that no one player comes close to him in size, athleticism, skills and resume. As Psileas pointed out it's so hard for a player that size to have such finesse and stroke, his footwork and mastery of the ball was so great you would never believe you're watching a 7'2" guy playing. You keep mentioning career bests and records because in truth Wilt's game doesn't match his numbers. You can't even convince yourself that Wilt was a skilled player on offense or in the post in particular.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt was at his best as a defensive specialist, never was as skilled as Kareem, nor as successfull. Kareem is just flat out the better player and his basketball career just trumps Wilt from HS to the NBA. You love to drool over stats, but the reality is that no one player comes close to him in size, athleticism, skills and resume. As Psileas pointed out it's so hard for a player that size to have such finesse and stroke, his footwork and mastery of the ball was so great you would never believe you're watching a 7'2" guy playing. You keep mentioning career bests and records because in truth Wilt's game doesn't match his numbers. You can't even convince yourself that Wilt was a skilled player on offense or in the post in particular.

Aside from FT shooting, Chamberlain was better at EVERY aspect of the game. Plain-and-simple.

A younger Chamberlain...you know, the Wilt who averaged 40 ppg in his first seven seasons (and 33 ppg in the POST-SEASON in that same span), had better RANGE (yes, Wilt came into the league with a good OUTSIDE game), more MOVES, as reliable a shot in his fadeaway bank shot; was quicker, and all of that coupled with his amazing athleticism and awesome power...and he was EASILY a better scorer.

And after that...Wilt in a RUNAWAY. He was a MUCH better rebounder; a MUCH better defender...both individual and team; a MUCH better shot-blocker and rim protector; a MUCH better passer; and finally...get this...MUCH more CLUTCH. Not even close in the CLUTCH department.

Compare their "must-win" playoff production, and Wilt was LIGHT YEARS better. And if the KAJ fans want to use PEAK, Wilt blew away Kareem in "must win" playoff scoring (as well as FG%, rebounding, and defense.)

And before some idiot brings up RINGS...a PRIME Wilt won as many rings as a PRIME Kareem...BUT, had FAR more team success.

Choke jobs? I could easily post FAR more post-season "choke jobs" by a prime Kareem. Before MAGIC arrived, KAJ was arguably the GOAT UNDERACHIEVER.

[LAZERUSS]

Couldn't rebound or play defense like Wilt tho. Couldn't even score as well as Wilt when that was his job to be honest.

Career high against Imhoff: 46 points.

Wilt's career high against Imhoff: 100 points.

Not that Kareem isn't a GOAT candidate, he is, but Wilt was better at just about everything - outside of free throws.

You can go right down the list, too.

A PRIME Chamberlain was FAR more dominant against the same centers that a PEAK Kareem would face a few years later (and most of those guys were fading by that time...and KAJ STILL couldn't come CLOSE to Wilt's domination.) Players like Imhoff, Dierking, Reed, Bellamy, and Thurmond (and even Jim Fox, who Wilt battered far worse despite no longer being in his absolute prime.)

[dunksby]

Aside from FT shooting, Chamberlain was better at EVERY aspect of the game. Plain-and-simple.

A younger Chamberlain...you know, the Wilt who averaged 40 ppg in his first seven seasons (and 33 ppg in the POST-SEASON in that same span), had better RANGE (yes, Wilt came into the league with a good OUTSIDE game), more MOVES, as reliable a shot in his fadeaway bank shot; was quicker, and all of that coupled with his amazing athleticism and awesome power...and he was EASILY a better scorer.

And after that...Wilt in a RUNAWAY. He was a MUCH better rebounder; a MUCH better defender...both individual and team; a MUCH better shot-blocker and rim protector; a MUCH better passer; and finally...get this...MUCH more CLUTCH. Not even close in the CLUTCH department.

Compare their "must-win" playoff production, and Wilt was LIGHT YEARS better. And if the KAJ fans want to use PEAK, Wilt blew away Kareem in "must win" playoff scoring (as well as FG%, rebounding, and defense.)

And before some idiot brings up RINGS...a PRIME Wilt won as many rings as a PRIME Kareem...BUT, had FAR more team success.

Choke jobs? I could easily post FAR more post-season "choke jobs" by a prime Kareem. Before MAGIC arrived, KAJ was arguably the GOAT UNDERACHIEVER.
Stop lying, even your boy Magic passed the ball to Kareem in the clutch, you are attracted to stats not basketball, you are just a long time on the stands basketball fan at best, and that is not withstanding your posts disrespecting old school basketball. Your posts just cry out arm chair fanboy illogical rants, you never post anything other than stats or outrageous history revisions in form of huge ass walls of text to appear thoughtful and discourage discussion. You are like a humanoid Internet forum bot with all those copy paste paste jobs from your post vault saved on your computer. Every time Wilt is mentioned you spam the thread with the same tired shtick, posting stuff you have ready on your hard drive over and over just to numb the pain and silence that voice in the back of your head that says " maybe Wilt isn't so great as you think he is".

[Asukal]

You obviously didn't understand what I mean: FT's, exactly because they are the least straining thing you do in the game, are something that needs small, fine movements and precision. A strong guy who's battling under the baskets all the time is the most likely one to lose this precision, due to this strain combined with his own strength. As you see, near the end of his career, when shooting his FT's, Wilt was standing 3 feet beyond the line, he was simply flickering his wrist and the ball was still shot as if it had been shot out of a cannon. For a guy like Wilt, it would take a very high level of precision to shoot FT's at a good percentage. A typical smaller player isn't going to need all this and isn't likely to realize how much more difficult it is for a big man to shoot at high %'s.

(Neither is Asukal, btw, but that's not something new).

Your points are valid, I'm not saying they are completely false. But to say its "nothing mental" is full of ignorance and completely shows lack of understanding of the game. Knowledge that only comes to people who compete. Your lack of experience explains why people like you love a guy like ILt. :rolleyes: :oldlol:

[LAZERUSS]

Stop lying, even your boy Magic passed the ball to Kareem in the clutch, you are attracted to stats not basketball, you are just a long time on the stands basketball fan at best, and that is not withstanding your posts disrespecting old school basketball. Your posts just cry out arm chair fanboy illogical rants, you never post anything other than stats or outrageous history revisions in form of huge ass walls of text to appear thoughtful and discourage discussion. You are like a humanoid Internet forum bot with all those copy paste paste jobs from your post vault saved on your computer. Every time Wilt is mentioned you spam the thread with the same tired shtick, posting stuff you have ready on your hard drive over and over just to numb the pain and silence that voice in the back of your head that says " maybe Wilt isn't so great as you think he is".

MAGIC MADE Kareem a winner. Not the other way around. Hell, the Lakers won 75% games in which Kareem missed, and Magic played. And in the one playoff game in which Kareem missed, it was MAGIC who put up one of the TRUE GOAT games in NBA history. BTW, LA had their largest win of that series withOUT Kareem. And of course...it was in a CLINCHING game. Something that Kareem was just not that good at.

REALITY...Kareem PALED in comparison to Wilt in EVERY aspect of the game.

[dunksby]

MAGIC MADE Kareem a winner. Not the other way around. Hell, the Lakers won 75% games in which Kareem missed, and Magic played. And in the one playoff game in which Kareem missed, it was MAGIC who put up one of the TRUE GOAT games in NBA history. BTW, LA had their largest win of that series withOUT Kareem. And of course...it was in a CLINCHING game. Something that Kareem was just not that good at.

REALITY...Kareem PALED in comparison to Wilt in EVERY aspect of the game.
Blah blah blah, you have nothing to say as always, posting the same bullshit. Carry on though, you continue to expose yourself and make my point.

[Psileas]

I'm not buying the size & strength argument.

When I started out as a coach I was also coaching kids and in most countries in Europe kids play using small basketball and lower baskets untill they reach a certain age.

So I shot a ton using this mini hoops and basketballs. And after a short period of time I would normally make more then I would shooting on a regular sized hoop using a regular sized basketball.

We also had a parent 3 pointer competiton at the end of every season and I remember one of the dads, a 6"5' SG who played competitionally back in the days made like 23 or 24 out of 25.

So while I have a lot of respect for Tom Heinson, I don't agree with him on this. I don't think a wrist flick alone would make things better. I've seen people using technique simillar to what he's saying. Slovenian PF Marko Milic, who played for Real Madrid and also stayed with the Phoenix Suns for a year shot that way at the end of his career (ball high above his head and only raising to his toes to shoot). It didn't make him a better shooter.

I agree with What Rick Berry said. The biggest reason was probably the fact the fact that he kept changing his technique. Or maybe his mechanics just wasn't good enough.

From the data you offer here, we get:
1) Smaller+lighter ball
2) Shorter rims,
however, I don't see anything pertaining to the size of the rims itself. It's obviously easier to shoot better when the ball is smaller and the rim is shorter, but still as wide as the normal ones.

Plus, I also mentioned Wilt keeping changing his technique as a mistake he committed. His most successful one was his college one and he should have tried to improve it instead of change it into something completely new.

[LAZERUSS]

From the data you offer here, we get:
1) Smaller+lighter ball
2) Shorter rims,
however, I don't see anything pertaining to the size of the rims itself. It's obviously easier to shoot better when the ball is smaller and the rim is shorter, but still as wide as the normal ones.

Plus, I also mentioned Wilt keeping changing his technique as a mistake he committed. His most successful one was his college one and he should have tried to improve it instead of change it into something completely new.

THIS.

The footage is out there. Wilt actually had decent form when he was in college and early in his NBA career.

But, I do think his strength hindered him, as well as his arthritis in his knees, as the years went by.

In any case, one of his coaches asked him to shoot his fadeaway from the line, but he refused. Which was odd, since the same coach had Hal Greer shooting jump shot FTs.

And Barry was right about "granny shooting"...which he perfected. It involved shooting them with the middle and ring fingers of each hand, and was delicate shot. Chamberlain had such huge hands, and so much strength, that it was difficult for him to learn. And he subsequently gave it up.

By the end of his career he was standing as far away in the FT circle as he could...and as you said... was "flicking" the ball toward the basket.

He wasn't the only one with FT shooting problems, though. Shaq was just as bad.

[Psileas]

Your points are valid, I'm not saying they are completely false. But to say its "nothing mental" is full of ignorance and completely shows lack of understanding of the game. Knowledge that only comes to people who compete. Your lack of experience explains why people like you love a guy like ILt. :rolleyes: :oldlol:

Dude, realize that I'm talking about the fact that Wilt shot much worse in normal games than practices. Dunksby made the point that, somehow, it was evidence something was wrong with him mentally. If this were the case, then something is wrong with virtually every player, because all players shoot worse to much worse in normal games than practices.
Was there something mental out there? Maybe, but comparing practices to real games isn't going to cut it.

[dunksby]

Dude, realize that I'm talking about the fact that Wilt shot much worse in normal games than practices. Dunksby made the point that, somehow, it was evidence something was wrong with him mentally. If this were the case, then something is wrong with virtually every player, because all players shoot worse to much worse in normal games than practices.
Was there something mental out there? Maybe, but comparing practices to real games isn't going to cut it.
Stop trivializing it, you don't drop 40% in efficiency in game situations unless there's a mental block involved, if it's not mental it's pure lack of skill and touch, so you Wilt fans got to pick one and stick with it.

[AirFederer]

We've established that none of the Ilt stans ever played the game. What they provide is (wheel)chair knowledge about his stats... And they alway look away from the most obvious reasons where Ilt failed. So no choking FT's from Wilt, he was just too exhausted, so very much more than almost anyone i the L. So he had bad stamina then? :lol

:facepalm

[iznogood]

From the data you offer here, we get:
1) Smaller+lighter ball
2) Shorter rims,
however, I don't see anything pertaining to the size of the rims itself. It's obviously easier to shoot better when the ball is smaller and the rim is shorter, but still as wide as the normal ones.

Plus, I also mentioned Wilt keeping changing his technique as a mistake he committed. His most successful one was his college one and he should have tried to improve it instead of change it into something completely new.
The rim was the same size, good point. What I wanted to say is that I don't believe the size and weight of the ball has that big of an effect on mechanics unless we're discussing extremes. Just look at all the big men that have good shooting form. You can argue that Wilt was stronger than most of them, but most of these men are strengthwise closer to Wilt then they are to guards, yet they shoot like guards.

[LAZERUSS]

And the "bashers" get too caught up in WILT's FT shooting.

The reality was/is...that aside from centers like Yao or McAdoo, and perhaps a few others, the average center has historically not even been an AVERAGE FT shooter.

The NBA has shot about .750 from the line in it's history.

Most of the best centers in the history of the game, have shot worse than that. Kareem was a career .721 shooter, Hakeem was at .719, and Duncan was at .696. All three of them had poor regular AND post-seasons, as well. Hell, Hakeem barely shot 60% over the course of his last three seasons combined.

And then there was Russell, who was a career .561 FT shooter (albeit, slightly better in the post-season at .603.) And how about Shaq? He shot .527 in his regular season career, and .504 in his post-season career. And yet Russell and Shaq won 15 rings between them. Clearly, FT shooting was not a pre-requisite for team success.

[LAZERUSS]

We've established that none of the Ilt stans ever played the game. What they provide is (wheel)chair knowledge about his stats... And they alway look away from the most obvious reasons where Ilt failed. So no choking FT's from Wilt, he was just too exhausted, so very much more than almost anyone i the L. So he had bad stamina then? :lol

:facepalm

How do explain Russell's team success, when he was barely a better FT shooter, and was FAR less efficient from the field, then?

Not to mention the FACT that Chamberlain slaughtered him in scoring, rebounding, and efficiency in their career H2H's.

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, and for those idiots who seem to think that Wilt was just a 60's "Shaq"...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak

And then this...

http://wiltfan.tripod.com/quotes.html




Carl Braun said "He [Wilt] disorganizes you under the basket the same way [as Bill Russell, on defense]. With Wilt, of course, there's that offense on top of it, which is better than Russell's. He hit on all those jumpers."
"Yes, Wilt hit on those jumpers...Wilt did come into the league with a good touch from the outside, which made his early scoring that much more significant. He wasn't just dunking the ball then."

--Red Holzman. A View from the Bench. P.70

[Psileas]

Stop trivializing it, you don't drop 40% in efficiency in game situations unless there's a mental block involved, if it's not mental it's pure lack of skill and touch, so you Wilt fans got to pick one and stick with it.

There's no need at all to "pick one" as if it has to be 100% responsible for the dropoff. It's probably some combination of factors and that's what the thread is about.

Btw, how do we even know it's a 40% drop? Wilt exaggerated things, so he might not even have been an 80% practice shooter to begin with. Or he might be an 80% practice shooter in one of his earlier seasons when he was shooting closer to 60%.
There's too much informal info to draw any conclusions, but big dropoffs between practices and games are normal for bad FT shooters.

[dunksby]

There's no need at all to "pick one" as if it has to be 100% responsible for the dropoff. It's probably some combination of factors and that's what the thread is about.

Btw, how do we even know it's a 40% drop? Wilt exaggerated things, so he might not even have been an 80% practice shooter to begin with. Or he might be an 80% practice shooter in one of his earlier seasons when he was shooting closer to 60%.
There's too much informal info to draw any conclusions, but big dropoffs between practices and games are normal for bad FT shooters.
:cheers:

[Asukal]

How do explain Russell's team success, when he was barely a better FT shooter, and was FAR less efficient from the field, then?

Not to mention the FACT that Chamberlain slaughtered him in scoring, rebounding, and efficiency in their career H2H's.

He did slaughter him. :applause:

Except in ring count. :rolleyes: