Distance traveled per 48 minutes - Lebron's is a league-bottom 3.0 miles

[3ball]

(Lebron is on 13th page of 14): http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/speed/?sort=DIST_48&dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Harden is also at a league-bottom 3.0 miles.. Chris Paul's is at 3.1 miles.. Westbrook's is 3.3.. All the heavy ball-dominators are < 3.5 miles.. And they're stats are identical in the playoffs.

Otoh, all the high-assisted, off-ball players are > 3.5 miles.. Korver, Danny Green, Kawhi Leonard, Klay Thompson, Steph Curry - all the off-ball players have over 3.5 miles traveled per 48 minutes, which means off-ball players travel almost 20% further than Lebron every 48 minutes.

So don't be fooled into thinking ball-dominators are expending more energy with their playground style because they're not - they're actually traveling a shorter distance than everyone else, which is remarkable since ball-dominators have the highest time of possession.. The low distance traveled coupled with high time of possessions means that Chris Paul, Lebron, and other ball-dominators spend a lot of time just standing around with the ball.
.

[SouBeachTalents]

Are you ever going to make a thread that's not about Jordan/LeBron?

[warriorfan]

Are you ever going to make a thread that's not about Jordan/LeBron?

That is his specialty. 3ball is a scientist. Why would you ask a biochemist to write about astrophysics?

[SexSymbol]

3ball's MJ obsession sometimes overshadow his very good thread ideas.
And this is a very good thread idea with perfect execution.
Facts, no biases, just straight up murdering fools.
You should always be like this, friend

[90sgoat]

And he still cramps up:facepalm

[SugarHill]

had no idea dudes running around screens travelled more distances

[3ball]

had no idea dudes running around screens travelled more distances
Seems counterintuitive, but it actually isn't.

And the fact that ball-dominators travel a shorter distance than everyone else is particularly remarkable since ball-dominators have the highest time of possession.

The low distance traveled along with high time of possession means that Chris Paul, Lebron, and all ball-dominators spend a lot of time just standing around with the ball... which is confirmed pretty clearly by a cursory eye test.

[aj1987]

(Lebron is on 13th page of 14): http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/speed/?sort=DIST_48&dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Harden is also at a league-bottom 3.0 miles.. Chris Paul's is at 3.1 miles.. Westbrook's is 3.3.. All the heavy ball-dominators are < 3.5 miles.. And they're stats are identical in the playoffs.

Otoh, all the high-assisted, off-ball players are > 3.5 miles.. Korver, Danny Green, Kawhi Leonard, Klay Thompson, Steph Curry - all the off-ball players have over 3.5 miles traveled per 48 minutes, which means off-ball players travel almost 20% further than Lebron every 48 minutes.

So don't be fooled into thinking ball-dominators are expending more energy with their playground style because they're not - they're actually traveling a shorter distance than everyone else, which is remarkable since ball-dominators have the highest time of possession.. The low distance traveled coupled with high time of possessions means that Chris Paul, Lebron, and other ball-dominators spend a lot of time just standing around with the ball.
.
You're melting down because Curry runs 0.5 miles more per game than LeBron?

Kevin Durant runs pretty much the same as LeBron, BTW. Kobe as well (the sample size is small though).


Seems counterintuitive, but it actually isn't.

And the fact that ball-dominators travel a shorter distance than everyone else is particularly remarkable since ball-dominators have the highest time of possession.

The low distance traveled along with high time of possession means that Chris Paul, Lebron, and all ball-dominators spend a lot of time just standing around with the ball... which is confirmed pretty clearly by a cursory eye test.
You've never watched a game of basketball, have you?

[3ball]

You're melting down because Curry runs 0.5 miles more per game than LeBron?


0.5 miles is a ton - it's 20% more than Lebron every game..

And it isn't just Curry - it's ALL off-ball players - Korver, Danny Green, Kawhi, etc.. Off-ball players travel about 20% further in games than ball-dominators like Lebron, Harden, CP3, etc.

So the notion that Lebron expended so much energy "running the show" for Cleveland is proven wrong by the stats... The stats also prove that even though ball-dominators travel the least distances in games, they still have the highest time of possession, which proves they stand around a lot.

[dubeta]

Its called navigational efficiency, getting the most production with the least amount of steps

LeBron is the most navigational efficient player in the league, no player produces more per step than him.


OP wouldnt understand

[sportjames23]

That is his specialty. 3ball is a scientist. Why would you ask a biochemist to write about astrophysics?


Right? Right?

You don't ask Michelangelo to explain the Theory of Relativity.

You don't ask Bill Gates to paint the Mona Lisa.

You don't ask Stevie Wonder to race in the Daytona 500.

And you don't ask rent freeball to discuss anything other than MJ vs Lebron.

[TripleA]

Running mile is not that tiring but attacking the basket and getting hit is a lot more tiring. Running more is not guaranteed to create more physical exertion. Their is more than that to the equation. Like jumping, fighting for position, shooting, defending, at asking the basket. All you are saying is that off ball players run more.

[AirFederer]

GOAT navigation efficiency, OP? :eek:
:oldlol:

[3ball]

Their is more than that to the equation. Like jumping, fighting for position, shooting, defending, at asking the basket. All you are saying is that off ball players run more.



kawhi does all that plus he runs an additional half mile a game.
.

[TripleA]

Their are so many factors that we can simply say that Lebron does not expend as much energy as off ball players. If isolated every variable except for distance ran and test their energy expenditure than you can that Lebron does not expend energy but you cannot so your analysis is bias. Also Lebron plays much more minutes than those players and is older so those are other variables in this analysis. If you going to look at basketball scientifically you have to take your analysis a step at a time.

[outbreak]

Still 3 miles more than I run in a day.

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-16-2015/NlRpyo.gif


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-16-2015/R29T3G.gif


Their are so many factors that we can simply say that Lebron does not expend as much energy as off ball players. If isolated every variable except for distance ran and test their energy expenditure than you can that Lebron does not expend energy but you cannot so your analysis is bias.



Again, Kawhi does all the things you say Lebron does, AND he runs an extra 1/2 mile per game.

And as you can see from the gifs above, scoring off-ball uses more energy than just running a longer distance.





Also Lebron plays much more minutes than those players


The stat measures PER 48 MINUTES - so playing time has nothing to do with it.. Stop being biased and turning a blind eye to the facts.

[Jameerthefear]

is op retarded? do u really think a half mile over a 48 minute basis is that tiring? it's not the running part that's tiring. i can run around a basketball court for 48 minutes with little to no trouble.

[LoneyROY7]

Damn, I guess JJ Redick > LeBron.

[TripleA]

Again, Kawhi does all the things you say Lebron does, AND he runs an extra 1/2 mile per game.

And as you can see from the gifs above, scoring off-ball uses more energy than just running a longer distance.



The stat measures PER 48 MINUTES - so playing time has nothing to do with it.. Stop being biased and turning a blind eye to the facts.

What facts your facts mean nothing without actually testing. You acting like your hypothesis is fact. For it to be fact you have actually test by isolating the variables. Kawhi might do the same things but you have to test it to consider it to be considered facts. You are trying to act like a scientist but you are just using observations that are not rooted in cold hard statistics to make your point.

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-03-2015/P5BrOZ.gif


Damn, I guess JJ Redick > LeBron.



For athletic players like MJ, off-ball play often requires MORE athleticism than ball-dominance does.
.

[Trollsmasher]

sounds like GOAT-tier navigation effiency paired with an excellent equal-opportunity running style

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-10-2015/LfHlds.gif


sounds like GOAT-tier navigation effiency paired with an excellent equal-opportunity running style



In addition to running an extra half mile per game, elite off-ball play requires the elite athleticism seen above, along with superior skill and smarts.

Accordingly, it's much harder than today's AAU, playground-style ball-dominance..

Look at the gif above - MJ's relentless off-ball game created an assist for Toni and increased the playmaking capacity of the team.. His off-ball game allowed his teammates to partake in the playmaking process, which made them bigger threats and increased strategic options... Hence, 6/6... :applause: :bowdown:

[aj1987]

0.5 miles is a ton - it's 20% more than Lebron every game..

And it isn't just Curry - it's ALL off-ball players - Korver, Danny Green, Kawhi, etc.. Off-ball players travel about 20% further in games than ball-dominators like Lebron, Harden, CP3, etc.

So the notion that Lebron expended so much energy "running the show" for Cleveland is proven wrong by the stats... The stats also prove that even though ball-dominators travel the least distances in games, they still have the highest time of possession, which proves they stand around a lot.
Nope. It's closer to 15%.

Korver, Green, Curry, etc.. What do they all have in common? They constantly run around screens to get open for a 3. That's why they run more than most players. Kobe, LeBron, KD, etc. don't need to. That's not their game. Also, those players are like 50lbs lighter than LeBron. If you still can't figure it out, I can't help you.

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-13-2015/LJ8raP.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-10-2015/LfHlds.gif


Nope. It's closer to 15%.

Korver, Green, Curry, etc.. What do they all have in common? They constantly run around screens to get open for a 3. That's why they run more than most players. Kobe, LeBron, KD, etc. don't need to. That's not their game. Also, those players are like 50lbs lighter than LeBron. If you still can't figure it out, I can't help you.



In addition to running an extra half mile per game, elite off-ball play FOR ATHLETIC PLAYERS requires the elite athleticism seen above, along with superior skill and smarts.

Accordingly, it's much harder than today's AAU, playground-style ball-dominance.

Look at the gif above where MJ dunks on Shaq - MJ's relentless off-ball game created an assist for Toni, which made him a bigger threat, and increased the playmaking capacity of the team.. His off-ball game allowed him to achieve elite stats within an equal-opportunity offense that was run well enough to go 6/6.
.

[3ball]

.
Thread Cliffs:


Despite having the highest time of possession (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?sort=TOP&dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs) per game, ball-dominators like Lebron, Harden, and CP3 actually travel the least distance (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/speed/?sort=DIST_48&dir=1) each game, presumably because they stand around half the time pounding the rock and not actually going anywhere..

Of course, we already know that in Lebron's case, he's a SF, so his ball-dominance turns a normally high-assisted position into a low-assisted one, which has served to drastically reduce his team's assist frequency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446) relative to his peers.

[aj1987]

.
Thread Cliffs:

I'm OBSESSED with LeBron and my life is absolutely pointless without him.

:applause:

[Straight_Ballin]

.
Thread Cliffs:


Despite having the highest time of possession (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?sort=TOP&dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs) per game, ball-dominators like Lebron, Harden, and CP3 actually travel the least distance (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/speed/?sort=DIST_48&dir=1) each game, presumably because they stand around half the time pounding the rock and not actually going anywhere..

Of course, we already know that in Lebron's case, he's a SF, so his ball-dominance turns a normally high-assisted position into a low-assisted one, which has served to drastically reduce his team's assist frequency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446) relative to his peers.

Wow, 3ball just took a big dump on Branstans and all they can do is sit there, hold the L, and take it. I honestly expected a better rebuttal, but the mad scientist just found another way to use facts to prove a solid point.

[20Four]

.
Thread Cliffs:


Despite having the highest time of possession (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?sort=TOP&dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs) per game, ball-dominators like Lebron, Harden, and CP3 actually travel the least distance (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/speed/?sort=DIST_48&dir=1) each game, presumably because they stand around half the time pounding the rock and not actually going anywhere..

Of course, we already know that in Lebron's case, he's a SF, so his ball-dominance turns a normally high-assisted position into a low-assisted one, which has served to drastically reduce his team's assist frequency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446) relative to his peers.

I'm a HUGE leBRONZE fan and I agree, we take the L on this one like usual :cry: :cry: :cry: I wish leBRONZE was as good as kobe :banghead: :banghead:

[sd3035]

exposes the fraudulent tired excuse for his 39% shooting against single coverage

[Im so nba'd out]

I like how OP just ignores the fact that this is really a positive thing.His navigational efficiency is probably the highest in league history.Per step lebron averages more(pps,rps,bps,sps, and aps) points rebounds blocks steals and assist per step than anyone in nba history.


You disappoint me OP :facepalm

[plowking]

That is his specialty. 3ball is a scientist. Why would you ask a biochemist to write about astrophysics?


:oldlol:

[swagga]

(Lebron is on 13th page of 14): http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/speed/?sort=DIST_48&dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Harden is also at a league-bottom 3.0 miles.. Chris Paul's is at 3.1 miles.. Westbrook's is 3.3.. All the heavy ball-dominators are < 3.5 miles.. And they're stats are identical in the playoffs.

Otoh, all the high-assisted, off-ball players are > 3.5 miles.. Korver, Danny Green, Kawhi Leonard, Klay Thompson, Steph Curry - all the off-ball players have over 3.5 miles traveled per 48 minutes, which means off-ball players travel almost 20% further than Lebron every 48 minutes.

So don't be fooled into thinking ball-dominators are expending more energy with their playground style because they're not - they're actually traveling a shorter distance than everyone else, which is remarkable since ball-dominators have the highest time of possession.. The low distance traveled coupled with high time of possessions means that Chris Paul, Lebron, and other ball-dominators spend a lot of time just standing around with the ball.
.

sup brother..... just out of curiosity, what do you do for a living ?

[Coach Eddie]

Interesting.

[Straight_Ballin]

I like how OP just ignores the fact that this is really a positive thing.His navigational efficiency is probably the highest in league history.Per step lebron averages more(pps,rps,bps,sps, and aps) points rebounds blocks steals and assist per step than anyone in nba history.


You disappoint me OP :facepalm

He moves around the court less than a non dominate ball player so essentially he is holding onto the ball way more than he should. Same with CP3. It's wasted time of possession at the expense of the team. He is causing his team to work harder and take more steps per game than they should in order to get the win.

[sd3035]

He moves around the court less than a non dominate ball player so essentially he is holding onto the ball way more than he should. Same with CP3. It's wasted time of possession at the expense of the team. He is causing his team to work harder and take more steps per game than they should in order to get the win.


Also he just stands around on defense, or camps near the rim to statpad his rebounds, that probably accounts for his low distance

[aj1987]

He moves around the court less than a non dominate ball player so essentially he is holding onto the ball way more than he should. Same with CP3. It's wasted time of possession at the expense of the team. He is causing his team to work harder and take more steps per game than they should in order to get the win.
That would be true if Kawhi, Green, and TP are among the league leaders in distance travelled per game. Who's holding onto the ball on the Spurs and making them run?

Also, Cleveland was the 3rd best offense last seasons and the Clips were #1. They must be doing something right...:confusedshrug:

[dubeta]

I'd argue that LeBron is one of the best off-ball players in the league, not as good as Reggie Miller, but certainly quite a bit better than Jordan.

[aj1987]

I'd argue that LeBron is one of the best off-ball players in the league, not as good as Reggie Miller, but certainly quite a bit better than Jordan.
Please kill yourself.

[sd3035]

Please kill yourself.

:roll:

[KellhitEmup15]

0.5 miles is a ton - it's 20% more than Lebron every game..

And it isn't just Curry - it's ALL off-ball players - Korver, Danny Green, Kawhi, etc.. Off-ball players travel about 20% further in games than ball-dominators like Lebron, Harden, CP3, etc.

So the notion that Lebron expended so much energy "running the show" for Cleveland is proven wrong by the stats... The stats also prove that even though ball-dominators travel the least distances in games, they still have the highest time of possession, which proves they stand around a lot.

Lol at this fake ass scientist. Thinking he's smart.

[iamgine]

sup brother..... just out of curiosity, what do you do for a living ?
Professional troll. He gets paid by Jeff to rustle feathers so there's more clicks to this site.

[Straight_Ballin]

Professional troll. He gets paid by Jeff to rustle feathers so there's more clicks to this site.


You know it's a sad time in NBA history of it takes Jeff having to pay someone to educate current fans about how much better MJ is. If greatness gets them ruffled, you know it's all down hill from there for them.

[sdot_thadon]

You know it's a sad time in NBA history of it takes Jeff having to pay someone to educate current fans about how much better MJ is. If greatness gets them ruffled, you know it's all down hill from there for them.
Nothing to do with greatness, everything to do with being way over the top with the hyperbole.

You can't present arguments as educated when you half ass the education part on your end. It's hilarious because dude presents his shit as grand discoveries that get ripped apart by the end of the 1st page usually. If he actually took more time to solidify these "findings" they'd endure longer. But he's just a repeat troll, Banned from every other forum I've seen him on. About. The. Same. Shit.

[sportjames23]

sup brother..... just out of curiosity, what do you do for a living ?


He lives rent free in a buncha nikkas heads here. That's what he does for a living. :oldlol:

[Lebron23]

Lol at this fake ass scientist. Thinking he's smart.


The guy is a stupid gimmick account by a veteran poster in this forum.

[Gileraracer]

Allthough I am a huge LeBron fan I got to admit that we took another L in here.

[Straight_Ballin]

Nothing to do with greatness, everything to do with being way over the top with the hyperbole.

You can't present arguments as educated when you half ass the education part on your end. It's hilarious because dude presents his shit as grand discoveries that get ripped apart by the end of the 1st page usually. If he actually took more time to solidify these "findings" they'd endure longer. But he's just a repeat troll, Banned from every other forum I've seen him on. About. The. Same. Shit.

Initially his earlier posts were well educated and accepted as irrefutable fact. Then once his work was done and things slowed down, Jeff had him ante up his game and so he started posting all those vids about Jordan and defenses that he went up against. It's still hilarious how he finds new and innovative ways to compare Jordan to whoever. I look forward to the next new criteria that he uses as a comparison.

[aj1987]

Initially his earlier posts were well educated and accepted as irrefutable fact. Then once his work was done and things slowed down, Jeff had him ante up his game and so he started posting all those vids about Jordan and defenses that he went up against. It's still hilarious how he finds new and innovative ways to compare Jordan to whoever. I look forward to the next new criteria that he uses as a comparison.

He moves around the court less than a non dominate ball player so essentially he is holding onto the ball way more than he should. Same with CP3. It's wasted time of possession at the expense of the team. He is causing his team to work harder and take more steps per game than they should in order to get the win.
That would be true if Kawhi, Green, and TP are among the league leaders in distance travelled per game. Who's holding onto the ball on the Spurs and making them run?

Also, Cleveland was the 3rd best offense last seasons and the Clips were #1. They must be doing something right...:confused shrug:

...

[3ball]

Initially his earlier posts were well educated and accepted as irrefutable fact. Then once his work was done and things slowed down, Jeff had him ante up his game and so he started posting all those vids about Jordan and defenses that he went up against. It's still hilarious how he finds new and innovative ways to compare Jordan to whoever. I look forward to the next new criteria that he uses as a comparison.




So wait, you think this defense:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2015/uAh_p8.gif




Is tougher than this defense below?... :wtf:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/kZeK3Z.gif


The paint and entire strongside is wide open for Lebron, but completely packed for Jordan.. This was normal (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11709076&postcount=19).

Here's the reality - the need for today's defenses to guard the weakside makes their strongside defense worse and more porous than previous eras (who didn't have to guard the weakside, so all 10 guys were bunched up on the strongside and help defenders always in much closer proximity than today's spaced out defenses).

[Straight_Ballin]

So wait, you think I'm bullshitting about the defense?

No, I agree with you I'm just saying that you posted those videos so many times (what else can you really do to educate these kids?) that I look forward to the new material and new ways that you continue to educate about Jordan's dominance. The fact that you have to spend ANY time educating those about Jordan's greatness over Lebron and Kobe is sad because these kids don't have fathers to teach them right from wrong.

The whole "well Lebron is the best because I never saw Kobe play, or Kobe is best because I never saw Jordan play" is just complete nonsense.

To those posters, no one cares if you never saw Jordan play live. That doesn't mean that he's not the GOAT.

[aj1987]

No, I agree with you I'm just saying that you posted those videos so many times (what else can you really do to educate these kids?) that I look forward to the new material and new ways that you continue to educate about Jordan's dominance. The fact that you have to spend ANY time educating those about Jordan's greatness over Lebron and Kobe is sad because these kids don't have fathers to teach them right from wrong.

The whole "well Lebron is the best because I never saw Kobe play, or Kobe is best because I never saw Jordan play" is just complete nonsense.

To those posters, no one cares if you never saw Jordan play live. That doesn't mean that he's not the GOAT.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11709095&postcount=49

[chips93]

0.5 miles is a ton - it's 20% more than Lebron every game..

And it isn't just Curry - it's ALL off-ball players - Korver, Danny Green, Kawhi, etc.. Off-ball players travel about 20% further in games than ball-dominators like Lebron, Harden, CP3, etc.

So the notion that Lebron expended so much energy "running the show" for Cleveland is proven wrong by the stats... The stats also prove that even though ball-dominators travel the least distances in games, they still have the highest time of possession, which proves they stand around a lot.

have you ever played basketball?

handling the ball takes up energy, so pgs that travel 3 miles per game, but spend a lot of that time protecting the ball, and driving to the basket are gonna expend a lot more energy than off-ball guys that dont have to expend energy protecting the ball.

they might be travelling more distance, but its still a lot less work.

anyone who has played basketball knows this from experience.

handling the ball against pressure is one of the more exhausting parts of basketball.

[chips93]

Again, Kawhi does all the things you say Lebron does, AND he runs an extra 1/2 mile per game.

And as you can see from the gifs above, scoring off-ball uses more energy than just running a longer distance.

kawhi does them, but not with nearly as heavy a workload, his usage rate is far lower than lebron's, so he can afford to pace himself more, and work harder on defense (which he is rightly commended for)

and two gifs dont prove anything. 90% off-ball scores are just spot up jumpers, or cuts to the hoop, and dont take that much effort


The stat measures PER 48 MINUTES - so playing time has nothing to do with it.. Stop being biased and turning a blind eye to the facts.
you ought to think before you post.

i could play in an nba game, log 5 mins, run half a mile, and per 48 mins i'd have covered 4.8 miles, leading the league by far. and by your logic, I would be doing more work than lebron/westbrook/etc.

those heavy usage, high minutes players have to pace themselves far more than low usage, low minute players have to.

[3ball]

have you ever played basketball?

handling the ball takes up energy, so pgs that travel 3 miles per game, but spend a lot of that time protecting the ball, and driving to the basket are gonna expend a lot more energy than off-ball guys that dont have to expend energy protecting the ball.

they might be travelling more distance, but its still a lot less work.

anyone who has played basketball knows this from experience.

handling the ball against pressure is one of the more exhausting parts of basketball.
Ball-handling isn't any more taxing than running off screens or battling for position in the paint or on the post.. And when you're handling the ball, your adrenaline is up, so you don't even notice any fatigue until after.

The rest of the time (the time when you're not making a move or driving), you're just holding the ball and resting, while off-ball players are still moving and/or battling for position in paint or on post.. It's a statistical fact that ball-dominators have the highest time of possession in addition to traveling the shortest distances - this proves they are standing around a lot and waiting/holding the ball.

But again - the main point is that off-ball players run almost 20% further every game - about a half a mile further - this offsets any additional muscle burn you perceive occurs to these guys from dribbling..

Most importantly, ball-dominance doesn't require the same level of skill sophistication - ball-domination is the aau/playground, grade-school-level approach to offense.. It's made for guys to rack up stats, whether it's the playground or the NBA - it's much more impressive to get those same or better stats within an optimal offense - equal-opportunity offense, which ball-dominance prevents.

[ralph_i_el]

How come LeBron's teams are always near the league lead in offensive efficiency then?

[3ball]

How come LeBron's teams are always near the league lead in offensive efficiency then?


So all teams that are "near the league lead in offensive efficiency" like you stated above, should be given chamionship rings?.. :oldlol:

The issue is that Lebron's ball-dominance doesn't allow his teams to run equal-opportunity offenses.. Since his ball-dominance prevents equal-opportunity, opponents can overcome lesser talent by playing equal opportunity themselves - essentially, since his ball-dominance doesn't allow the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented teams can pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

Otoh, MJ's highly-assisted, off-ball game increased the assist capacity of the team and allowed the team to employ the best brand of basketball (equal-opportunity) - by playing the best brand of basketball possible, MJ's teams weren't susceptible to less talented opponents pulling upsets by playing a better brand of basketball.. MJ's teams never got beat by equal or less talented teams.. Ever.

Furthermore, it takes more ability to achieve all-time stats within an equal-opportunity, winning framework, than the grade school-level, clearout/playground style that ball-dominators like Lebron need to put up numbers.

[Straight_Ballin]

3ball toe taggin em.

[ClipperRevival]

have you ever played basketball?

handling the ball takes up energy, so pgs that travel 3 miles per game, but spend a lot of that time protecting the ball, and driving to the basket are gonna expend a lot more energy than off-ball guys that dont have to expend energy protecting the ball.

they might be travelling more distance, but its still a lot less work.

anyone who has played basketball knows this from experience.

handling the ball against pressure is one of the more exhausting parts of basketball.

Yup. Sort of a layman argument by OP. Guys who run through picks cover a lot more distance with much less resistance. A guy like JJ Redick runs about as much as anyone and on one possession, he can run a few hundred feet, running through picks. But he's seldom planting hard and exploding, which is extremely taxing. Guys like him run at slight angles through picks, which is much less taxing. Sure, he has to change directions sometimes but not constantly. The ball handler can move 50 feet and exert more energy because he has to worry about the defender, doubles and the contact when driving to the basket and also the contact through picks. Much easier and less taxing to move without the ball. This isn't even a debate.

[ClipperRevival]

So all teams that are "near the league lead in offensive efficiency" like you stated above, should be given chamionship rings?.. :oldlol:

The issue is that Lebron's ball-dominance doesn't allow his teams to run equal-opportunity offenses.. Since his ball-dominance prevents equal-opportunity, opponents can overcome lesser talent by playing equal opportunity themselves - essentially, since his ball-dominance doesn't allow the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented teams can pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

Otoh, MJ's highly-assisted, off-ball game increased the assist capacity of the team and allowed the team to employ the best brand of basketball (equal-opportunity) - by playing the best brand of basketball possible, MJ's teams weren't susceptible to less talented opponents pulling upsets by playing a better brand of basketball.. MJ's teams never got beat by equal or less talented teams.. Ever.

Furthermore, it takes more ability to achieve all-time stats within an equal-opportunity, winning framework, than the grade school-level, clearout/playground style that ball-dominators like Lebron need to put up numbers.

Makes me wonder if you even watched Bron prior to the 2015 finals. For most of his career, he played more like Magic than a ball dominator. He almost always tried to make the right basketball play and was seen as too unselfish. Yes, he ran isos when needed but that wasn't his fortay. He enjoyed playing unselfish basketball.

His numbers from 2008-2013 (6 years) is matched by only 1 other perimeter player and that's MJ. 6 straight seasons leading in PER with a whooping 30.2 and giving you 28.2 ppg on only 19.6 fga while shooting .511%.

I am an MJ fan like you but when you continue to unfairly bash Bron, I have to call you for it.

[FKAri]

3ball's MJ obsession sometimes overshadow his very good thread ideas.
And this is a very good thread idea with perfect execution.
Facts, no biases, just straight up murdering fools.
You should always be like this, friend

Because he hasn't yet posted "The Turn". He's waiting for more replies until he pops out how MJ ran more than soccer players.

[red1]

I am amazed that people still read this retard's threads. Distance traveled per 48 minutes? What in the ****?

[3ball]

I am amazed that people still read this retard's threads. Distance traveled per 48 minutes? What in the ****?
It's a statistical fact that ball-dominators travel the shortest distances (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385794) during games - about 20% less than off-ball players, about a 1/2 mile - so don't act like "Lebron has to handle to ball so much", as if it's an extra burden.

In Lebron's case, his low-assisted, ball-dominance comes from the forward position, so it's in ADDITION to the point guard - he turns a normally high-assisted, frontcourt position into a low-assisted, ball-dominant position.. This extra position of low-assisted, ball-dominance that he adds to all his teams lowers his team's assist frequency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446) relative to his peers.

Furthermore, the extra position of low-assisted, ball-dominance that Lebron adds to every team eliminates any chance of his teams running an equal-opportunity offense or the playing best brand of basketball, which allows equal or less-talented teams to pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..

Ultimately, it takes more ability to achieve great stats within an equal-opportunity, winning framework, than the grade school-level, clearout/playground style that ball-dominators like Lebron need to put up numbers.
.

[3ball]

Makes me wonder if you even watched Bron prior to the 2015 finals. For most of his career, he played more like Magic than a ball dominator. He almost always tried to make the right basketball play and was seen as too unselfish. Yes, he ran isos when needed but that wasn't his fortay. He enjoyed playing unselfish basketball.



The issue is that Lebron's ball-dominance doesn't allow his teams to run equal-opportunity offenses.. Since his ball-dominance prevents equal-opportunity, opponents can overcome lesser talent by playing equal opportunity themselves - essentially, since his ball-dominance doesn't allow the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented teams can pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

Otoh, MJ's highly-assisted, off-ball game increased the assist capacity of the team and allowed the team to employ the best brand of basketball (equal-opportunity) - by playing the best brand of basketball possible, MJ's teams weren't susceptible to less talented opponents pulling upsets by playing a better brand of basketball.. MJ's teams never got beat by equal or less talented teams.. Ever.

Furthermore, it takes more ability to achieve all-time stats within an equal-opportunity, winning framework, than the grade school-level, clearout/playground style that ball-dominators like Lebron need to put up numbers.

[Mr. Jabbar]

my KINGs league-bottom may be 3.0 miles, but he surely did travel them

#kang

[ClipperRevival]

The issue is that Lebron's ball-dominance doesn't allow his teams to run equal-opportunity offenses.. Since his ball-dominance prevents equal-opportunity, opponents can overcome lesser talent by playing equal opportunity themselves - essentially, since his ball-dominance doesn't allow the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented teams can pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

Otoh, MJ's highly-assisted, off-ball game increased the assist capacity of the team and allowed the team to employ the best brand of basketball (equal-opportunity) - by playing the best brand of basketball possible, MJ's teams weren't susceptible to less talented opponents pulling upsets by playing a better brand of basketball.. MJ's teams never got beat by equal or less talented teams.. Ever.

Furthermore, it takes more ability to achieve all-time stats within an equal-opportunity, winning framework, than the grade school-level, clearout/playground style that ball-dominators like Lebron need to put up numbers.

Lol. Why are you copying and pasting the same thing? How about you read my thread and respond with something constructive instead of copying and pasting the same thing?

[poido123]

As clinically insane as 3ball is with his persistent MJ agenda threads day in day out, he does make some unique and often valid claims that no one really challenges all that well.

He is a one man wrecking machine, get out of his way. :oldlol:

[3ball]

His numbers from 2008-2013 (6 years) is matched by only 1 other perimeter player and that's MJ. 6 straight seasons leading in PER with a whooping 30.2 and giving you 28.2 ppg on only 19.6 fga while shooting .511%.

I am an MJ fan like you but when you continue to unfairly bash Bron, I have to call you for it.



MJ only "matched" Lebron's best??.. "Superceded" is a better description of what happened:

Regular season:

MJ 87'-93':. 33.4 ppg.. 1.7 oreb.. 4.7 dreb.. 6.0 apg.. 2.9 tov.. 121 ORtg.. 30.4 PER
LBJ 08'-13': 28.2 ppg.. 1.3 oreb.. 6.4 dreb.. 7.3 apg.. 3.3 tov.. 120 ORtg.. 30.2 PER

.

[ClipperRevival]

MJ only "matched" Lebron's best??.. "Superceded" is a better description of what happened:


MJ 87'-93':. 33.4 ppg.. 1.7 oreb.. 4.7 dreb.. 6.0 apg.. 2.9 tov.. 121 ORtg.. 30.4 PER
LBJ 08'-13': 28.2 ppg.. 1.3 oreb.. 6.4 dreb.. 7.3 apg.. 3.3 tov.. 120 ORtg.. 30.2 PER

MJ Reg. Season Per Game: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1987-1993-sum:per_game
MJ Advanced: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1987-1993-sum:advanced

Lebron RS Per Game: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2008-2013-sum:per_game
Lebron Advanced: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2008-2013-sum:advanced

MJ is the GOAT for a reason but even you have to admit that's a hell of a 6 year run. MJ type dominance in the efficiency department.

[3ball]

MJ is the GOAT for a reason but even you have to admit that's a hell of a 6 year run. MJ type dominance in the efficiency department.
Playoffs Per 100 Possessions:

MJ 88'-93':. 44.2 pts.. .8.6 rebs... 8.5 ast.. 4.2 tov.. 120 ORtg
LBJ 08'-13': 36.6 pts.. 11.3 rebs.. 8.5 ast.. 4.3 tov.. 117 ORtg


And again, it takes more ability to achieve all-time stats within an equal-opportunity, winning framework, than the grade school-level, clearout/playground style that ball-dominators like Lebron need to get their numbers.

Also, it's a statistical fact that Lebron's isolation ability is far below-average - so given MJ's goat isolation ability, we can assume he would've done much better in the same clearout spots that Lebron got in the 2015 Finals.. This is especially true since MJ shot 50% against packed strongsides and paints, so he would run roughshod when he saw the wide open strongside afforded by today's weakside spacing.

[red1]

As clinically insane as 3ball is with his persistent MJ agenda threads day in day out, he does make some unique and often valid claims that no one really challenges all that well.

He is a one man wrecking machine, get out of his way. :oldlol:
until you actually read the posts...

[aj1987]

As clinically insane as 3ball is with his persistent MJ agenda threads day in day out, he does make some unique and often valid claims that no one really challenges all that well.

He is a one man wrecking machine, get out of his way. :oldlol:
Random contextless BS is what it is.


@3ball, http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11695332&postcount=37

[Smoke117]

Wait...why should we care about this?...

[Smoke117]

my KINGs league-bottom may be 3.0 miles, but he surely did travel them

#kang

Yawn...you're not funny. Stop trying so hard all the time.

[sdot_thadon]

3ball, could you post the stats for how many accounts you've had banned with this shtick?

[Jailblazers7]

Boogie with an average speed of 118 mph? :biggums: :oldlol:

[Orlando Magic]

Only a mother****ing straight up rabies infested retarded ****ing moron would think that the amount of footsteps you take in any given game automatically equates to how hard you tried or how much energy you expended.

I'm not entirely sure where to begin when approaching such a retarded ****ing conclusion, but I'll attempt it anyways...

1) Guys that carry more weight are burning more energy when running around. That's a fact. Not an opinion. A fact.

2) Rim attackers are burning more energy than jump shooters. That's a fact. Not an opinion. A fact.

3) Since, by OP's logic, more footsteps = more energy expended... as an example, do any of idiotic ****s really want to argue with me that Shaq used less energy banging in the post... than let's say... Steph Curry's tiny little jump shooting ass, because Shaq wasn't constantly running around the court? **** out of here you ****ing retards.

[Orlando Magic]

3ball's MJ obsession sometimes overshadow his very good thread ideas.
And this is a very good thread idea with perfect execution.
Facts, no biases, just straight up murdering fools.
You should always be like this, friend

Retard exposed.


And he still cramps up:facepalm

Retard exposed.


Wow, 3ball just took a big dump on Branstans and all they can do is sit there, hold the L, and take it. I honestly expected a better rebuttal, but the mad scientist just found another way to use facts to prove a solid point.

Retard exposed.



exposes the fraudulent tired excuse for his 39% shooting against single coverage

Retard exposed.


Allthough I am a huge LeBron fan I got to admit that we took another L in here.

Retard exposed.

[Lebron23]

Only a mother****ing straight up rabies infested retarded ****ing moron would think that the amount of footsteps you take in any given game automatically equates to how hard you tried or how much energy you expended.

I'm not entirely sure where to begin when approaching such a retarded ****ing conclusion, but I'll attempt it anyways...

1) Guys that carry more weight are burning more energy when running around. That's a fact. Not an opinion. A fact.

2) Rim attackers are burning more energy than jump shooters. That's a fact. Not an opinion. A fact.

3) Since, by OP's logic, more footsteps = more energy expended... as an example, do any of idiotic ****s really want to argue with me that Shaq used less energy banging in the post... than let's say... Steph Curry's tiny little jump shooting ass, because Shaq wasn't constantly running around the court? **** out of here you ****ing retards.



Only a ****ing idiot would go along with the idea that this was a valid claim. Retard exposed.

Orlando Magic just ethered and destroyed 3ball.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9z8F4fgj6Q

[Gileraracer]

I am glad we all know that LeBron traveled nonetheless :rockon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptH0DyiomvE

[Lebron23]

Orlando Magic just annihilated, and destroyed the trolls in this thread.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/20140611/5050218/bruce-lee-vs-japanese-school-o.gif

[Gileraracer]

Guess you got to say that cause it matches your opinion.



2/6
27%
35FGAs


#cantdeny

[Lebron23]

Guess you got to say that cause it matches your opinion.



2/6
27%
35FGAs


#cantdeny


Simon

[sd3035]

Simon


Wow, this Simon dude really has you on strings :roll:

[Gileraracer]

Simon

What do I have to do with your boyfriend?

[Lebron23]

Wow, this Simon dude really has you on strings :roll:


I love that guy. He can play some guitars like me.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

3ball always reinventing himself. That's what scientists do.

As I type this, guy is probably slaving away in his laboratory...thinking of a new serum to annihilate leftover Kang stans. :eek:

[Lebron23]

3ball always reinventing himself. :bowdown:

As I type this, guy is probably slaving away in his laboratory thinking of a new serum to annihilate Kang stans. :eek:


The guy is so stupid and posts the same stuff over and over again.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The guy is so stupid and posts the same stuff over and over again.

Navigation efficiency, off-ball passing, and now "distance traveled"? :yaohappy:

Admit it, you're curious to see what he comes up with next.

[sdot_thadon]

Navigation efficiency, off-ball passing, and now "distance traveled"? :yaohappy:

Admit it, you're curious to see what he comes up with next.
Only in the sense of how quick his next one will get annihilated. Over/under one page?

[warriorfan]

3ball always reinventing himself. That's what scientists do.

As I type this, guy is probably slaving away in his laboratory...thinking of a new serum to annihilate leftover Kang stans. :eek:

Professor rent free ball is in the lab cooking up another batch of ether for these stans

[3ball]

Only a mother****ing straight up rabies infested retarded ****ing moron would think that the amount of footsteps you take in any given game automatically equates to how hard you tried or how much energy you expended.


I never said distance traveled = energy expended.. I stated a statistical fact that off-ball players travel 1/2 mile more per game (about 20% more) than ball-dominators like Lebron.. "Distance traveled" is the NBA's stat, not mine.

For point guards, the lower distance traveled and lack of physical contact (zero contact is allowed above the foul line) offsets energy spent dribbling the ball.. And unlike normal point guards, Lebron doesn't have to DEFEND point guards, which is a primary source of energy drain for point guards in general.

Since Lebron travels a shorter distance each game, experiences zero physical contact like all PG's due to hand-check ban, and doesn't have to guard point guards, it cannot be argued that Lebron's ball-dominant style makes him expend more energy than any other equal-producing player in history.






do any of idiotic ****s really want to argue with me that Shaq used less energy banging in the post... than let's say... Steph Curry's tiny little jump shooting ass, because Shaq wasn't constantly running around the court?



Yes, Shaq would expend MUCH MORE energy running around the court like Curry.. He'd be way more tired running around on the perimeter like Curry, than he would leaning on his defender in the paint.

[Orlando Magic]

I never said distance traveled = energy expended.. I stated a statistical fact that off-ball players travel 1/2 mile more per game (about 20% more) than ball-dominators like Lebron.. "Distance traveled" is the NBA's stat, not mine.

Oh? Let's refer to your original post.


So don't be fooled into thinking ball-dominators are expending more energy with their playground style because they're not - they're actually traveling a shorter distance than everyone else

**** outta here, idiot.

[Rocketswin2013]

This guy misinterprets literally all the data he looks at. :lol

[3ball]

Oh? Let's refer to your original post.



**** outta here, idiot.
Can you read you dumbass... The post you quoted never said distance traveled = energy expended.. I stated a statistical fact that off-ball players travel 1/2 mile more per game (about 20% more) than ball-dominators like Lebron.

Since Lebron travels a shorter distance each game, experiences zero physical contact like all ballhandlers because of hand-check ban, and doesn't have to defend point guards, it cannot be argued that Lebron's ball-dominant style makes him expend more energy than any other equal-producing player in history.

Basically, as a ball-dominator, Lebron benefits from all the things that HELP a point guard's stamina (traveling less distance during game and no physical contact due to hand-check ban), but doesn't have to do the biggest thing that saps a PG's energy - defending other PG's.. :confusedshrug:

[aj1987]

Can you read you dumbass... The post you quoted never said distance traveled = energy expended.. I stated a statistical fact that off-ball players travel 1/2 mile more per game (about 20% more) than ball-dominators like Lebron.

Since Lebron travels a shorter distance each game, experiences zero physical contact like all ballhandlers because of hand-check ban, and doesn't have to defend point guards, it cannot be argued that Lebron's ball-dominant style makes him expend more energy than any other equal-producing player in history.

Basically, as a ball-dominator, Lebron benefits from all the things that HELP a point guard's stamina (traveling less distance during game and no physical contact due to hand-check ban), but doesn't have to do the biggest thing that saps a PG's energy - defending other PG's.. :confusedshrug:
Actually, you did, you mouth breathing retard.

Again, LeBron is like 50lbs heavier than Green, Curry, etc.. Do you even know how that works?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11709095&postcount=49

[3ball]

Again, LeBron is like 50lbs heavier than Green, Curry, etc.. Do you even know how that works?


Since Lebron travels a shorter distance each game, experiences zero physical contact like all ballhandlers because of hand-check ban, and doesn't have to defend point guards, it cannot be argued that Lebron's ball-dominant style makes him expend more energy than any other equal-producing player in history.

Basically, as a ball-dominator, Lebron benefits from all the things that HELP a point guard's stamina (traveling less distance during game and no physical contact due to hand-check ban), but doesn't have to do the biggest thing that saps a PG's energy - defending other PG's.

[red1]

Distance travelled. What. In. The. ****. This is even lower than the ESPN stat-mongering we all hate.

[3ball]

Distance travelled. What. In. The. ****. This is even lower than the ESPN stat-mongering we all hate.


It's a real thing - we know for a FACT that ball-dominators like Lebron, Harden and CP3 travel 1/2 mile less per game (about 20% less) than off-ball players like Kawhi Leonard or Steph Curry.

Since Lebron travels a shorter distance each game, experiences zero physical contact like all ballhandlers because of hand-check ban, and doesn't have to defend point guards, it cannot be argued that Lebron's ball-dominant style makes him expend more energy than any other equal-producing player in history.

Basically, as a ball-dominator, Lebron benefits from all the things that HELP a point guard's stamina (traveling less distance during game and no physical contact due to hand-check ban), but doesn't have to do the biggest thing that lowers a PG's energy: defending other PG's.

[red1]

It's a real thing - we know for a FACT that ball-dominators like Lebron, Harden and CP3 travel 1/2 mile less per game (about 20% less) than off-ball players like Kawhi Leonard or Steph Curry.

Since Lebron travels a shorter distance each game, experiences zero physical contact like all ballhandlers because of hand-check ban, and doesn't have to defend point guards, it cannot be argued that Lebron's ball-dominant style makes him expend more energy than any other equal-producing player in history.

Basically, as a ball-dominator, Lebron benefits from all the things that HELP a point guard's stamina (traveling less distance during game and no physical contact due to hand-check ban), but doesn't have to do the biggest thing that lowers a PG's energy: defending other PG's.
Excellent analysis. 1-starred and subscribed.

[aj1987]

Since Lebron travels a shorter distance each game, experiences zero physical contact like all ballhandlers because of hand-check ban, and doesn't have to defend point guards, it cannot be argued that Lebron's ball-dominant style makes him expend more energy than any other equal-producing player in history.

Basically, as a ball-dominator, Lebron benefits from all the things that HELP a point guard's stamina (traveling less distance during game and no physical contact due to hand-check ban), but doesn't have to do the biggest thing that saps a PG's energy - defending other PG's.
And he's 50+lbs heavier than EVERY PG. :facepalm

Stop posting, retard.

[warriorfan]

And he's 50+lbs heavier than EVERY PG. :facepalm

Stop posting, retard.

As a lebron fan, lebron being overweight is his own problem

[aj1987]

As a lebron fan, lebron being overweight is his own problem
I forgot who won the FMVP in the Finals. Can you please remind me?

[Megabox!]

Oh? Let's refer to your original post.



**** outta here, idiot.
:roll: :roll: 3ball is getting destroyed.

[ralph_i_el]

I bet LeBron is up there at the top of travels per 48 minutes:yaohappy:

[warriorfan]

I forgot who won the FMVP in the Finals. Can you please remind me?

Rent Free AMC, better than dWade has ever been. Can you live with it?

[aj1987]

Rent Free AMC, better than dWade has ever been. Can you live with it?
Can you stop melting down?

[red1]

Rent Free AMC, better than dWade has ever been. Can you live with it?
curry would slap you for saying that

[KnittingRyu]

I bet if this were distance traveling without getting called for it per 48, LeBron would lead the league.

[sd3035]

I bet if this were distance traveling without getting called for it per 48, LeBron would lead the league.

Lebald would be first with 3.0 miles

[LikeABosh]

Lebron isn't a off the ball player and Cavs are a slow paced team. WTF is your point shit for brain?

[3ball]

Lebron isn't a off the ball player and Cavs are a slow paced team. WTF is your point shit for brain?


Who's fault is it that Lebron isn't an off-ball player?... It's Lebron's fault and his fault only.. It's an indictment on his game that he isn't good off-ball, just like it's an indictment on his game that he isn't a good shooter, barely posts up, and is poor at 1-on-1 (which is probably the reason he barely posts up).

But regarding his style of play and stamina - since Lebron travels a shorter distance each game, experiences zero physical contact like all ballhandlers because of hand-check ban, and doesn't have to defend point guards, it cannot be argued that Lebron's ball-dominant style makes him expend more energy than any other equal-producing player in history.

Basically, as a ball-dominator, Lebron benefits from all the things that HELP a point guard's stamina (traveling less distance during game and no physical contact due to hand-check ban), but doesn't have to do the biggest thing that saps a PG's energy - defending other PG's..

[Optimus Prime]

But LeBron expends great energy creating new ways to flop.

http://cdn.rsvlts.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Lebron-James-Flop-GIF-020-compressor.gif

Also, do they track the distance he travels while crab dribbling?

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/z%20Funny%20NBA%20Photos/Others%20Masterpiece/0%20queen%20lebron%20james/lebron-james-crab-dribble.gif~original

Serious question. :kobe: