Lebron craters the apg and assist % of his teammates

[3ball]

.
Lebron achieves his stats by lowering his teammates' PPG and APG.

Specifically, he turns them into play-finishers by lowering their APG (playmaking) and increasing their assisted rate (play-finishing):



................................................AP G, ASSIST %....... ASSISTED RATE

Wade before Lebron (04'-10'):..... 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)..................29.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:shooting) <---- links to nba.com data
Wade with... Lebron (11'-14'):..... 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)..................40.3% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:shooting)

Irving before Lebron (12'-14'):.... 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)..................31.9% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:shooting)
Irving with... Lebron.. (2015):..... 5.0 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game), 25.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:advanced)..................32.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2016-sum:shooting)

Bosh before Lebron (04'-10'):...... 2.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 10.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)..................55.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:shooting)
Bosh with... Lebron (11'-14'):...... 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced) ...................71.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:shooting)

Love before Lebron (09'-14'):...... 2.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:per_game), 13.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:advanced)..................62.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:shooting)
Love with ...Lebron (15'-16'):...... 2.3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game), 11.4% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:advanced)..................80.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2016-sum:shooting)

Mo Will before Lebron (05'-08'):.. 5.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:per_game), 30.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:advanced)..................39.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2004-2008-sum:shooting)
Mo Will with... Lebron (09'-10'):.. 4.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:per_game), 22.3% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:advanced)..................47.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:shooting)


FYI...

Pippen with... Jordan 91'-93':...... 6.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game), 24.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced)
Pippen w/out Jordan 94'-95':...... 5.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game), 23.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced)
Pippen with... Jordan 96'-98':...... 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game), 25.1% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced)



Unfortunately, by reducing teammates to play-finishers, Lebron promotes a sophomoric brand of basketball that can't succeed against the best playoff teams, who invariably play a superior brand of basketball.. Guys like Patty Mills and Boris Diaw are tasked with MAKING PLAYS for the Spurs - they aren't just play-finishers like Shumpert and JR Smith (who are actually more talented).

Futhermore, the supporting cast's predictable play-finishing roles don't work against the best playoff teams, which causes them to routinely underperform and play undercapacity in the Finals (the story is ALWAYS how Lebron's teammates played poorly when it mattered) - since Lebron's teammates play undercapacity against the best teams, the TEAM plays undercapacity/underperforms (i.e. losing as the favorite in 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, and 2011 Finals, or losing when it was 50/50 - 2014 Finals (http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2014/06/nba_finals_2014_experts_predict_whether_the_heat_o r_spurs_will_come_out_on_top_in_the_finals_rematch .html)).

Now the question is WHY SPECIFICALLY does Lebron turn teammates into play-finishers?.. It's because he employs a point guard style from the forward position - this adds a 2nd low-assisted, high time of possession player IN ADDITION to the existing point guard, which gives teammates less opportunity to assist and less time with the ball than other teams whose forwards have normal assisted rates and time of possession.

That's the difference between 2/6 and 6/6.. MJ got the most out of his teammates - he elevated teammates so the team played to full capacity and never lost as the favorite.. Otoh, Lebron reduces teammates to play-finishers, which leads to team underperformance and losing as the favorite.
.

[ShawkFactory]

:sleeping

[Dr Hawk]

No matter how hard you try, Lebron > Jordan

[Smoke117]

This is just really pathetic...even for you. Wade's assist went down...nooooooo, really? You realize that Wade never liked having to handle the ball so much right? He was forced into the PG duties because there was no other option...he always wanted to play more off ball. The fact that he was hurt a lot also lowered his numbers, obviously.

The differences with these other guys is just idiotic...comparing guys like Bosh, Love, Mo, and Irving to before and after...all four guys were on shit teams where they could do whatever they pleased for the most part, so of course their assist numbers were higher. You are going to have the ball in your hands less when you play on a better team and especially with a player WHO IS BETTER THAN YOU. That's kind of how it works, genius.

[jlip]

Mods, seriously?

[3ball]

Lebron had 43,300 minutes entering the 2016 regular season.. Conservatively, if we assume Jordan's 3000 college minutes translates to 1000 NBA minutes, that means Jordan reached 43,300 minutes right before the 1998 playoffs.

Here's Jordan's 1998 playoff stats at 35 years old vs. Lebron's 2016 regular season stats at 30 years old:


JORDAN: 32.4 ppg.. 1.6 oreb.. 3.8 dreb.. 3.5 apg.. 2.1 tov.. 1.5 spg.. 0.6 bpg.. 46.2 fg.. 54.5 ts.. 117 ORtg.. 28.1 PER
LEBRON: 26.2 ppg.. 1.4 oreb.. 6.2 dreb.. 6.4 apg.. 3.5 tov.. 1.4 spg.. 0.6 bpg.. 50.1 fg.. 56.9 ts.. 112 ORtg.. 27.4 PER


Btw, Lebron's body is only 30 years old, and therefore better equipped to handle 43k minutes than MJ's much older, 35-year old body.. And obviously, MJ's superior stats are PLAYOFF stats, not early regular season like Lebron's.



Outside the paint, defender can sag off their man, UNTIL defender meets edge of paint


That's where defensive 3 seconds kicks in - since the paint blocks defenders from further sagging on all sides, today's defenders outside the paint aren't allowed to be further away from their man than previous eras... Previous eras were allowed to sag off their man to the edge of the paint as well (see image above) with the same 3 second limit inside the paint.

The only exception where today's defenders outside the paint are allowed to be a FURTHER distance from their man than previous eras is during "flooding". But flooding merely attempts to make today's concentration of strongside defenders equivalent to the un-spaced courts of previous eras, and therefore wasn't a viable strategy back then.. Flooding also wasn't viable because the unspaced courts of previous eras activated the NBA's legal paint-camping provision, which is a superior defensive tactic to flooding..



Inside the paint, today's defenders must "follow" their man

Today's defender must follow their man around the paint to stay within "armslength", per the defensive 3 seconds rule.

"Armslength" is much closer than the allowance in previous eras, where defenders could remain in the paint while their man was up to 3 feet outside the paint - so defenders could stand under the rim while their man was 8 feet away on the block, or 12 feet away below the FT line.

Today's defender can't do that - they must stand right next to their man in both cases to fulfill the "armslength" requirement... Accordingly, paint defenders in previous eras had more freedom - they didn't have "follow" their man to stay within armslength like today's defenders.




Unlike the aforementioned zone qualities of paint-camping where defenders can be far from their man, "armslength" is the exact opposite of a zone - infact, "armslength" is the strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder.. Nonetheless, this strict, no-zone policy governs today's defenders in the most important area of the floor: the paint.


If big men could still paint-camp under the rim while out of "armslength" of their man, that would be preferable to today's flooding, which requires the big man to leave the rim unprotected and contest guards outside the paint - extra rotations are necessary since the weakside is left a man down.

Paint camping has ALWAYS been a more equitable way to defend the court, since it doesn't leave the rim unprotected or require big men to contest guards on the perimeter, nor does it leave the weakside a man down or require extra rotations.

[Rose'sACL]

whatever lebron does, it makes the team into a really good offensive unit even when heat used to play at a slow pace because of their defense which was best suited for half court defense.

[TripleA]

So Lebron ball is good enough to become a top 2 team.:applause:

[TripleA]

How about Jordan is better than Lebron because he is better at basketball.
Truth bombs here.

[3ball]

Kobe won his rivalry with Duncan and defeated him in the clutch:


https://media.giphy.com/media/EEr1d9kg2vAUU/giphy.gif



Otoh, Lebron choked in the clutch and missed the walk-off attempt - he needed Ray Allen to save him:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-05-2015/XxRuyC.gif



Naturally, Jordan MADE his walk-off attempt in his first meeting against Duncan/Popovich to send the game into overtime:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-05-2015/rP-QUs.gif



After hitting the walk-off, MJ dominated overtime, including 2 dunks over Duncan:


https://media.giphy.com/media/26FPq7nUqs2V8LyNO/giphy.gif



In his 2nd meeting against Duncan, MJ dominated Duncan even more thoroughly:


https://media.giphy.com/media/TbKAH5Pl5N91S/giphy.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-11-2015/cyFnUr.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/VgAj53MW9ee5O/giphy.gif


It's obvious that Jordan only ever DOMINATED Duncan and guys like Duncan - they weren't "rivals" like they are for Kobe and Lebron.. :rolleyes.. 6/6






Here's the problem in the Orlando series - as always, Lebron's teammates played horribly, so they lost - who cares how about Lebron's stats if teammates can't play well while Lebron accumulates those stats.. If Lebron's teammates could play WELL alongside him, he'd be 6/6 already.

But it's impossible for teammates to play well when Lebron's presence significantly lowers their APG and PPG - this is statistical fact (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841).. With teammates playing under capacity, the team plays under capacity and comes up short as the favorite, just like they did in 2009 and other years.

Since Lebron significantly reduces the PPG and APG of teammates, he doesn't elevate teammates, which is the hallmark of a great player.. This is why he isn't top 10 all time - you can't be top 10 all-time if teammates play worse alongside you and it leads to team underachievement.

Whereas MJ's teams never played below capacity or lost as the favorite, because he never got his stats at the expense of teammates - he never reduced the PPG or APG of teammates like Lebron did, yet his stats are still better than Lebron's - as the OP shows, MJ had higher PPG, APG, Steals, efficiency and of course, more rings.








Kobe had to do more with less. He wasn't as physically gifted as MJ so his skills needed to be on point. I do think that you can argue that he was the most skilled 2 guard ever.




This is subjective, depending on what your definition of "skills" is.


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-03-2015/P5BrOZ.gif


But what truly separated Jordan, was his shot-making ability inside 15 feet - unmatched in the history of the game.. Phil Jackson said something like "Oscar was amazing shotmaker in the paint, but MJ was by far the best of all time" or something pretty close to that.. he was talking about wing players.

As the GIF above shows, MJ made some things look so easy, you don't realize that's the best offense you've ever seen.

A lot of people think Lebron is a fantastic shotmaker in the paint, but he plays in the 3-point era, which opens up the middle of the floor by forcing defenders to occupy the 3-point line.. With the middle of the floor open, penetrators can beat perimeter defenders or mismatched shading bigs, and then face and open paint while defenders chase from behind and the sides.. This has inflated everyone's at-rim percentages - even Austin Rivers can be a superstar by beating bigs on the perimeter and finishing on unprotected rims:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-28-2015/iDsifM.gif



Otoh, the middle of the floor remained crowded at all times in previous eras because no one shot 3-pointers - this forced wing players like MJ into a lot of mid-range pull-ups because the sheer number of players always standing in the paint frequently sealed the paint.


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-23-2015/bZE6Lj.gif


Also, it's evident that without 3-pointers in previous eras, there was no one spacing the weakside, so defenders could remain on the strongside, eliminating the need to flood.. With all defenders on the strongside, wing players must make plays in a smaller space.. Otoh, in today's game, the weakside is always spaced to reduce the number of strongside defenders and give players more room to make a play.

The above situation of overcrowded paints caused by lack of 3-point shooting/spacing, was exacerbated by legal-paint-camping, which was allowable under certain common conditions pre-2005.. Otoh, in today's game, the new defensive 3 seconds rule banned paint-camping and is designed to "open up the game" - according to the NBA, the absence of today's defensive 3 seconds rule would allow "frontcourt players to stand in the middle of the lane and discourage cutting, passing and dribble penetration.".. See 2nd last question:

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html

[TripleA]

His teams don't play equal-opportunity like all the teams that beat him do (Spurs, Warriors, 2011 Mavs).. His ball-dominance won't allow equal-opportunity and the best brand of basketball, so equal or less-talented teams can pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

He lost in 2014 because his team could not stop the Spurs offense not that his offense was bad. Also in 2009 it was defense. He was incredible offensively and 2011 he was trash in the finals .

[Rose'sACL]

His ball-dominance doesn't allow his teams to run optimal equal-opportunity offenses like all the teams that beat him do (Spurs, Warriors, 2011 Mavs)..

Since his ball-dominance doesn't allow the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented teams can pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).
what optimal offense? heat lost 2014 finals because of their poor defense and lol at using 2011 and 2009.

[Smoke117]

so why didn't Pippen's assists go down alongisde MJ - Pippen's assists went UP alongisde MJ.

everyone else's cratered alongside lebron..... but somehow pippen's went UP alongside Jordan and DOWN when Jordan wasn't there... hmmm....

what is it about mj's presence that made it easier for Pippen to get an assist... hmmmm... that's a tough one boss.. ahem... off-ball.. ahem
.

...because they slowed down the offense and there were less fast break opportunities, for one. Replacing Michael Jordan with Pete Myers obviously didn't help. Doesn't take a genius to realize you are going to get more assist passing the rock to Jordan and not Pete Myers. Comparing these guys to Scottie Pippen is just idiotic. The circumstances are not even close to the same.

[3ball]

MJ vs Lebron prime vs. prime stats:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=387520


percentage of team points while on the floor - jordan monster in 4th

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=392376


jordan most double-teamed player everr

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210


No seriously - this is a foul

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=391306


today's defender must follow their man:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=390393&page=2








lol at using 2011 and 2009.


lol at your beta denials of the facts... It's a statistical fact that ball-dominators travel the shortest distances (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385794) during games despite having the highest time of possession (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?sort=TOP&dir=1&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs) (meaning they stand around a super-ton).

In Lebron's case, his low-assisted, ball-dominance comes from the forward position, so it's in ADDITION to the point guard - he turns a normally high-assisted, frontcourt position into a low-assisted, ball-dominant position.. This extra position of low-assisted, ball-dominance lowers his team's assist frequency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446) relative to his peers.

Furthermore, the extra position of low-assisted, ball-dominance that Lebron adds to every team eliminates any chance of his teams running an equal-opportunity offense or the playing best brand of basketball, which allows equal or less-talented teams to pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..

Ultimately, it takes more ability to achieve great stats within an equal-opportunity, winning framework, than the grade school-level, clearout/playground style that ball-dominators like Lebron need to put up numbers.



.
All-star appearances while playing with Kareem:

Magic 10
Worthy 6
Bob Dandridge 2
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Oscar 2
Flynn Robinson 1
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
_____________
8 players, 25 appearances = 6/9 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Magic:

Kareem 10
Worthy 6
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
_____________
5 players, 20 appearances = 5/9 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Bird:

Parish 9
McHale 6
Tiny Archibald 3
D Johnson 1
_____________
4 players, 19 appearances = 3/5 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Shaq:

Kobe 7
Wade 3
Penny 2
Van Exel 1
Eddie Jones 1
Horace Grant 1
_________________
6 players, 15 appearances = 4/6 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Lebron:

Wade 4
Bosh 4
Kyrie 1
Mo Williams 1
Zydrunas 1
______________
5 players, 11 appearances = 2/6 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with Duncan:

Parker 6
Robinson 3
Ginobili 2
________________
3 players, 11 appearances = 5/6 in Finals




All-star appearances while playing with MJ:

Pippen 6
_______________
1 player, 6 appearances = 6/6 in Finals
.

[TripleA]

Your actually stupid 3brick he lost because of defense in 2009 and 2014. He played like trash in 2011. Have you played basketball or watched it in your life you dumb nerd.:cheers:

[TripleA]

Have actually played a game in your life. Your probably one of those fat kids in school who liked to talk about ball but we're to slow and unskilled to play.:lol

[3ball]

.
Lebron significantly lowers the APG and assist % of his teammates:


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'):. 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'):. 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'):. 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)
Irving apg and assist % with..... Lebron (2015):.. 5.2, 25.0%

Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'):.. 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'):.. 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), .8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN:. 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:.. 2.2, 10.7%

Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron:.. 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron:.. 4.1, 20.1%

FYI...

Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 91'-93':. 6.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game), 24.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % w/out Jordan 94'-95':. 5.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game), 23.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 96'-98':. 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game), 25.1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced)


Source: basketball-reference.com
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[TripleA]

Fat boy have you watched a game. You probably just look at Jordan gifs you unathletic weirdo.

[3ball]

http://lookingforamerica.us/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Nba-Basketball-Court-Dimensions-300x300.jpg


In today's game, if a defender's man is behind the 3-point line (with or without the ball), the defender can sag off an unlimited amount, even all the way to the baseline, BUT ONLY IF the paint doesn't get in the way.

Unfortunately, as the diagram shows, almost nowhere on the 3-point arc can a defender sag off and not eventually meet the paint - in these instances, the defender only has 3 seconds in the paint, which is the same as previous eras, who were also allowed to sag into the paint for 3 seconds.

However, defenders in previous eras had an advantage specifically when sagging off corner/sideline 3-point shooters - they were allowed to paint-camp "with no time limits" in the "outside" lane, which is the outer partition running up the sides of the paint, shown above.. Today's defenders can't do this - they have 3 seconds in the "outside" lane, just like they do in the inside lane.. Given this disadvantage in sagging off on corner/sideline 3-point shooters, today's defender has less freedom in sagging off shooters than previous eras.
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[red1]

another garbage thread brought to you by...

[SouBeachTalents]

Instead of looking at these players assist ratios, you should look at their postseason success before LeBron, then with LeBron (with Wade obviously being the exception)

[3ball]

01-02 Lakers won 58 games and completed the threepeat.

02-03 Lakers had the same core, won 50 games and got knocked out in the second round.

03-04 They added Malone and Payton, lost Horry, won 56 games and got eliminated in the finals. Looks like shaking up the core improved things, but like you said, not enough.


I realized how your Lakers example makes my point - let's say Shaq retires after the 2002 season, and the remaining core players are healthy and in their prime with a chip on their shoulder to prove themselves without the self-proclaimed Most Dominant Ever (MDE)..

Now if Kobe leads that team to 55 wins in 2003, that achievement would be due to 3-peat chemistry and know-how, not talent... No one is going to say he had a stacked squad like young fans say about the 1994 Bulls... Fox, Fisher, and Horry don't represent talent - if you win 55 with those guys, it's due to chemistry.. It's the same thing when Pippen won 55 with Grant, BJ and Longley - they won 55 based on chemistry, not talent.

Now let's say Kobe DOESN'T lead that untalented supporting cast of Fox/Fisher/Horry to 55 wins, and instead wins 45 - then clearly, the team didn't have great chemistry to begin with and won their 3-peat from 2000-2002 based more on TALENT then chemistry (the talent being the monster duo of top 10 all-time players Shaq/Kobe)... Winning via talent is actually more likely, given how the Lakers very tenuous, flimsy chemistry was exposed in 2003 and 2004, when it completely broke down... Furthermore, the stats below show that MJ carried the far bigger load - Shaq/Kobe clearly shared the duties more than MJ/Pippen did.. MJ had to do more, due to a lesser cast - the data is clear.

Jordan scored a FAR higher proportion of his team's points while on the floor than Shaq or Kobe... Shaq got twice the rebounds and blocks, but MJ had twice the assists and steals - so those categories cancel out and we're left with scoring.. The stats below are undeniable and prove MJ had less help than Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Lebron, Magic, Bird, etc, etc... Just like I've been saying all along.. And keep in mind - we're comparing 34-35 year old MJ to prime Shaq, and MJ's 2nd three-peat teams were supposed to be MORE "stacked" (:rolleyes: ):


................Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)


SHAQ 2000....... 35.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 39.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 38.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 43.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2001....... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 38.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 35.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 26.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2002....... 33.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 35.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 25.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 28.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)


PIPPEN 1997.... 24.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 22.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 24.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 25.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 25.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 26.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
PIPPEN 1998.... 24.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 19.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 21.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 15.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 22.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 14.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)


KOBE 2000....... 27.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 29.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 26.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 27.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 19.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 15.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
KOBE 2001....... 32.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 34.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 31.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 37.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 25.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 23.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
KOBE 2002....... 30.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 31.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 29.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 27.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 32.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
.

[KellhitEmup15]

Your stupid as hell. Lebrons teams became trash when he does not play . I'm actually from Chicago and An idiot can see that Lebron has a huge impact on his team success.

[3ball]

Lebron achieves his stats by significantly reducing the APG and PPG of teammates - this is statistical fact (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11709582&postcount=17).

Not only does Lebron reduce teammates' APG, but he increases their assisted rate, proving he turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers..

Naturally, his teammates' basic play-finishing roles no longer succeed against the best teams in the playoffs, which explains their consistent underperformance in the Finals - the story is always how Lebron's teammates underperformed against the best teams, leading to TEAM underperformance by losing as the favorite (2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, 2011 Finals) or when it's 50/50 (2014 Finals) (http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2014/06/nba_finals_2014_experts_predict_whether_the_heat_o r_spurs_will_come_out_on_top_in_the_finals_rematch .html).

The reason Lebron turns teammates into play-finishers is threefold (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12056301&postcount=60).

[KellhitEmup15]

When Lebron left the Cavs in 2011, it wasn't just Lebron that left - Mo Williams, Varejao, Shaq, Zydrunas and Delonte were all gone too.. Don't be dumb and think it was just Lebron that left... And this season, obviously, Bosh and Wade missed significant time with injury.. Again, don't be dumb and ignore this.

Otoh, it's a statistical fact that Lebron lowers the assist capacity of his team relative to other teams by turning a normally high-assisted frontcourt position into a low-assisted one... This is a statistical fact - Lebron's teams have far lower assist frequency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446) than his peers.. And as this thread shows - Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving, and Mo Williams all have significantly lower apg and assist % alongside Lebron (while Pippen's assists went UP alongside off-ball Jordan, and DOWN when Jordan left).
Furthermore, the extra position of low-assisted, ball-dominance that Lebron adds to every team eliminates any chance of his teams running an equal-opportunity offense or the playing best brand of basketball, which allows equal or less-talented teams to pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..

Ultimately, it takes more ability to achieve great stats within an equal-opportunity, winning framework, than the grade school-level, clearout/playground style that ball-dominators like Lebron need to put up
numbers.

The Miami Heat missed the playoffs the Nets and Celtics got in over them that's disgusting. You have to be blind to not see how he helps his team win.

[KellhitEmup15]

Why does it matter if his teammates assists go down if them being the stars of the team did not lead to success aka Love,Irving,Williams and Bosh.

[3ball]

Lebron's low-assisted, point-guard play from the SF position means that every team he's on has an extra point guard... His presence as an extra low-assisted player reduces the playmaking capacity of teammates (since they can't toss him a dime) and their playmaking responsibility (since he's dominating the ball).. Not surprisingly, teammates get far less assists alongside Lebron and all of Lebron's teams have far lower assist frequency than his peers.




Why does it matter if his teammates assists go down if them being the stars of the team did not lead to success aka Love,Irving,Williams and Bosh.


Lebron's ball-dominance turns his teammates from playmakers into play-finishers, which prevents the team from running equal opportunity offenses like the Spurs and Warriors use, where all 5 players share the playmaking responsibility.

Since Lebron's ball-dominance prevents his teams from playing the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented opponents are able to pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..

Btw, it takes more ability to achieve great stats within an equal-opportunity, winning framework, than the grade school-level, clearout/playground style that ball-dominators like Lebron need to get their numbers.

[KellhitEmup15]

Your actually a dimwit. Fake ass intellectual. Your probably some unathletic nerd.

[SouBeachTalents]

I'd take a wild guess and say Bosh, Kyrie, and Love would trade half an assist and zero playoff success for deep playoff runs and championships

[3ball]

- after their top 3 guys who average double figures - the Pistons had Laimbeer/Rodman/Aguirre/Vinnie/Edwards like the Pistons, 1991 Lakers, 1992 Blazers, 1993 Suns, or ANY good team (like today's Spurs or Warriors) have numerous quality players past their top 3 guys.

The Bulls' team was built differently from most good teams - they had 2 good players, 1 role player, and literally 8+ interchangeable stiffs...


4. 1994. Jordan up and QUIT. He is not traded for additional talent...he QUIT. The Bulls scrambled to replace him, and with whom? None other than the legendary Pete Myers. Yes, they also added Kerr and Kukoc, but neither made a significant impact.

The '94 Bulls then went 55-27...which was deceptive. Why? Because Pippen and Grant missed a combined 22 games. Had those played in almost every game, they easily would have won 60+ games. No question about it. Oh, and Pippen was now considered a Top-FIVE player in the league...which, he was. And Grant? An ELITE PF who had a HUGE IMPACT on EVERY team he played with. And easily the best interior defender on the Bulls. Not only that, but his offensive impact could be measured by his staggering ORtgs.





The "if this... if that... and if this" argument for why Bulls could've beaten Knicks, Pacers and Rockets in 1994 Playoffs:

Ok, the '94 55-27 Bulls then lost a close and controversial seven game series against 56-26 Knicks in the ECSF's. In fact, they were ONE PLAY AWAY FROM WINNING THAT SERIES IN SIX GAMES.

The 56-26 Knicks then polished off the Pacers in the ECF's. The same team that Chicago dominated during the season, 4-1. So, the likely scenario was that had Chicago beaten the Knicks, they would have gone to the Finals.

As it was, the 56-26 Knicks lost a game seven to the 58-24 Rockets in the Finals...by four points. In a series that they outscored Houston (just as Chicago had outscored NY in the ECSF's.)

So, we KNOW that this was NOT an "ordinary second round losing team." They were actually a CHAMPIONSHIP contending team.







5. 1995. In addition to not having Jordan, this team no longer had the ELITE PF, Grant. TWO KEY players from their '93 title team. Somehow, Pippen, a Top-5 player in the league, WILLED this roster to a 34-31 record. Think about that. Pippen could carry an MJ-less and Grant-less roster to a winning record, but Jordan never had a winning season without PIPPEN (much less without Grant/Rodman.)


You're bragging about a .500 record?... Many players worse than Pippen have led teams to .500 records.

Furthermore, the Bulls' 1995 roster improved in various ways - starting SG Ron Harper was brought on board, and Kukoc's 2nd year stats drastically improved to 16 ppg on 51% (compared to 10 ppg on 43% in 1994).

And again, Pippen was not a top 5 player in 1995.. 1995/prime David Robinson, Barkley or Malone were all better, along with Shaq (29/13/2.5 blk)... Ewing (25/11/2.7).... and Alonzo (21/10/3).

All these guys would laugh you out of the room if you said Pippen was better, and their stats destroy Pippen's... Don't overrate 22 ppg on 49%.






made several improvements to their roster in 1995You're bragging about a .500 record
Ok, MJ decided to come back to steal another ring. He returns and play the last 17 games of the season. In game five, he poured in 55 points. Clearly, he is completely back, and in fact, when the playoffs arrive, he is the most refreshed and healthiest player in the post-season.


In round 1 MJ proves he is completely back. He hung a 32-7-6 .495 series...which was similar to his '93 playoff averages.

In round 2, the Bulls are beaten 4-2, by a team with Horace GRANT, who put up a staggering 18-11 .647 series. Clearly, it is GRANT who was a KEY piece to Shaq's Magic.

However, the Magic were then SWEPT by a 47-35 team in the Finals.

Think about that. The '94 team came within an eyelash of at least getting to the ECF's, and likely would have given Houston all they could handle in the Finals...since we know that the team that beat the '94 Bulls outplayed that Rockets team. And yet, with MJ basically replacing GRANT on the '95 Bulls...MJ couldn't come close to what the '94 Bulls had accomplished in the post-season.


Now, 3ball (and other's) will tell you NONSENSE, like, you could easily replace Grant (or perhaps even Pippen...which was basically IMPOSSIBLE to replace.) Now, if that were the case, then how about this...

Let's replace PETE MYERS, who wasn't even a Top-20 SG in '94, with even an average SG. Likely a title. But how about replacing him with Reggie Miller, or Joe Dumars, or Mitch Richmond. Does anyone here honestly believe that one of those guys would NOT have made a HUGE difference?


6. 1996. Chicago management took one look at the disappointing '95 season and realized...hey, we can't win without an ELITE PF. So, they went out and grabbed HOFer Dennis Rodman. And the rest was history.

The '96 Bulls had an MJ, who replaced Grant on a 55+ win team, and then ADDED HOFer Rodman.

CLEARLY, the Bulls in the 90's were the most STACKED team in the league. And before 3ball mentions that players like Bird or Magic had better supporting casts...those teams were NOT playing in the 90's. The 90's were a watered down era, where most teams only had one great player, and possibly two. There were no teams like the early 80's Sixers, or late 80's Pistons, or the 80's Celtics and Lakers. Not even close.

One more time...we KNOW how the Bulls played withOUT Jordan. They were a 55+ win team, that could seriously challenge for a title. Now, let's remove the best player from every other team in the 90's...guys like Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, K. Malone, Barkley, etc...

How many rings do the Bulls win without Jordan in that scenario?

I say they easily win six.

THAT tells you all you need to know about MJ's supporting casts in the 90's.[/QUOTE]

[3ball]

.
In the picture below, weakside 3-point shooters (spacing) have drawn defenders away from the strongside.. If Joakim Noah doesn't leave #20 Mozgov and flood to the strongside, the strongside will only have 2 defenders to contest Lebron.


http://i61.tinypic.com/2z7mnvm.png



Otoh, the 80's and 90's didn't shoot 3-pointers like today's game - those eras didn't have shooters on the weakside (spacing) drawing defenders away from the strongside, so the strongside was already flooded with all 5 defenders.. With all 5 defenders on the strongside and multiple defenders already standing where Joakim Noah flooded to, floods weren't necessary:


https://media.giphy.com/media/xT0BKishrkuHZV0IDK/giphy.gif


Ultimately, spacing causes today's defenders to make extra rotations.. But without that spacing (previous eras), defenders were already in closer proximity and the rotations weren't necessary.

Spacing and defensive movement offset each other, which is why league-wide offensive rating (the stat measuring how hard it is to score) has been stable for 30 years.. Excluding a brief downswing from 1999-2004, ORtg has ranged between 105-108 since 1980, including an all-time high of 108.3 in 2009.. The minor shifts within that 105-108 range are due to style of play differences between the eras that affect inputs to the ORtg calculation, such as offensive rebounding rate and FT rate.

30 years of stable ORtg proves the difficulty of scoring hasn't changed, and the changes in offensive strategy (spacing) and defensive strategy (extra rotations) are offsetting - you either have extra rotations required by spacing and defensive 3 seconds (today's game), or the rotations aren't necessary because there is no spacing or defensive 3 seconds (previous eras).
.

[Smoke117]

You hate lebron...we get iiiiiiiit. Stop beating this dead horse into dust.

[3ball]

.
Insightful stats regarding MJ from NBA.com's advanced stats



Here are stats linked to NBA.com's advanced stat pages that show old MJ carried a larger load during his 1997 and 1998 championship runs than Shaq's 2000-2002 runs:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12092334&postcount=1



Here's more linked stats that show old MJ carried a larger load during his 1997 and 1998 championship runs than prime Lebron's 2012 & 2013 runs:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12095171&postcount=1



Here's more linked stats that show old MJ scored a higher proportion of team points while on the floor than every year of Lebron's career:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12056041&postcount=48



Here's linked stats for prime vs. prime - Jordan's 6-year prime (1988-1993) to Lebron's 6-year prime (2009-2014):

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12055910&postcount=35



Here's a comparison of overall stats for MJ and Lebron's entire careers:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12056271&postcount=57

.

[Hey Yo]

You hate lebron...we get iiiiiiiit. Stop beating this dead horse into dust.
Plus he's quite jealous and fearful of him. That's why he goes through great lengths to try to downplay LeBron's greatness and prop up guys like Shumpert, Delonte', Mo and reject J.R Smith.

[TripleA]

:facepalm .. It's not my fault no one can explain why Wade, Kyrie, Mo Williams, Bosh, and Love's assists went way down alongside Lebron, while Pippen's went up alongside MJ (and down when MJ was gone).

I can explain it though (see thread cliffs above).
.

You have exposed yourself as a troll get out of here.

[LikeABosh]

Yea, he's ball dominant point forward. Amazing discovery

[Gileraracer]

That is why he will be 1.5/7 soon

[warriorfan]

C'mon guys, we are having a mature basketball discussion here.

[3ball]

Yea, he's ball dominant point forward. Amazing discovery


He's a point forward who significantly reduces the APG and assist % of his teammates, including Wade, Kyrie, Mo Williams, Bosh, and Love.. Not surprisingly, all of his TEAMS have low assist frequency:


POSSESSIONS PER ASSIST (HIGHER NUMBER MEANS LESS PASSING)


2015 Cavs: 92.3/22.1 = 4.18
2014 Heat: 91.2/22.5 = 4.05
2013 Heat: 90.7/23.0 = 3.94
2012 Heat: 91.2/20.0 = 4.56
2011 Heat: 90.9/20.0 = 4.55
2010 Cavs: 91.4/22.4 = 4.08
2009 Cavs: 88.7/20.3 = 4.37
2008 Cavs: 90.2/20.0 = 4.51
2007 Cavs: 90.8/20.8 = 4.37
2006 Cavs: 89.8/19.0 = 4.72


1998 Bulls: 89.0/23.8 = 3.74
1997 Bulls: 90.0/26.1 = 3.45
1996 Bulls: 91.1/24.8 = 3.67
1993 Bulls: 92.5/26.0 = 3.56
1992 Bulls: 94.4/27.8 = 3.40
1991 Bulls: 95.6/27.0 = 3.54
1990 Bulls: 96.7/26.5 = 3.65
1989 Bulls: 97.0/27.0 = 3.59
1988 Bulls: 95.5/26.2 = 3.65
1987 Bulls: 95.8/26.1 = 3.67
1985 Bulls: 99.4/24.3 = 4.09


2015 GSW:.. 98.3/27.4 = 3.59
2014 Spurs:. 95.0/25.2 = 3.77
2011 Mavs:.. 91.3/23.8 = 3.84
2007 Spurs:. 89.8/22.1 = 4.06

1987 Lakers: 101.6/29.6 = 3.43
1986 Celtics: 102.1/29.1 = 3.47

Source: basketball-reference.com


Forwards are normally high-assisted players where teammates assist them a lot.. They aren't low-assisted, point guards like Lebron who score all by themselves.. Lebron's presence as an EXTRA low-assisted player (in addition to the PG) that teammates rarely get to assist/toss a dime to, reduces the TEAM'S assist frequency and obviously the assists of individual teammates.

The statistical reality is that Lebron's presence as an additional, low-assisted ball-dominator (in addition to the PG) creates an inequitable distribution of playmaking and prevents the best brand of basketball - equal-opportunity offense - which all the great teams use (90's Bulls, Spurs, Kerr's Warriors)... Since Lebron's ball-dominance prevents his teams from playing the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented opponents are able to pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..

Btw, it takes more ability to achieve great stats within an equal-opportunity, winning framework, than the grade school-level, clearout/playground style that ball-dominators like Lebron need to get their numbers.
.

[3ball]

.
...NBA.COM'S STATS ON
"MIDRANGE" EFFICIENCY
..(all shots inside 3-pt line but outside paint)



.......................Midrange Efficiency .

M Jordan. 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.. 48.9%.. 588/1202

Westbrook 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201566/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):. 36.9%.. 164/445
Westbrook 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201566/stats/shooting/):. 42.4%.. 129/304

D Wade.. 2006 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):... 38.4%.. 174/403
D Wade.. 2012 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):... 39.5%.. 115/291
D Wade.. 2013 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):... 38.9%.. 144/370
D Wade.. 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/):... 36.4%.. 143/393

Derozan. 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201942/stats/shooting/):... 37.5%.. 183/488

Butler. 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202710/stats/shooting/):....... 35.9%.. 113/315

Lebron.. 2004 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2003-04&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 33.2%.. 183/551
Lebron.. 2005 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2004-05&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 36.0%.. 217/602
Lebron.. 2006 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 38.4%.. 242/630
Lebron.. 2007 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 35.1%.. 204/581
Lebron.. 2008 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 36.4%.. 185/508
Lebron.. 2009 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 36.8%.. 193/525
Lebron.. 2010 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 38.8%.. 188/444
Lebron.. 2011 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2010-11&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 44.6%.. 217/487
Lebron.. 2012 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 42.3%.. 188/444
Lebron.. 2013 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 43.2%.. 174/403
Lebron.. 2014 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 38.5%.. 126/327
Lebron.. 2015 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 37.0%.. 127/343
Lebron.. 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.... 37.1%.. 96/259


None of these guys are anywhere NEAR the shooter Jordan was.. :confusedshrug:

Lebron, Westbrook, Wade, Derozan and Butler all have poor 3-point AND midrange efficiency, yet they're still the top wing scorers because today's wide open spacing and hands-off defense allows athletic players easier access to the rim than ever before.

Today's spacing and hands-off defense would benefit MJ's athleticism the same way, except he had well-documented, goat midrange efficiency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713011&postcount=43), which would put him in Curry's category as a goat shooter, and give him a similarly massive advantage over Lebron, Westbrook and company..



............................5-9 feet............... 10-14 feet............. 15-19 feet.........Overall Midrange

M Jordan. 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.. 49.2%.. 62/126...... 51.5%... 240/466..... 49.5%.. 294/594..... 48.9%.. 588/1202

Westbrook 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201566/stats/shooting/):. 46.1%.. 47/102...... 41.9%.... 88/210..... 40.9%.... 72/176..... 42.4%... 129/304

D Wade.. 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2548/stats/shooting/):... 40.0%.. 82/205...... 33.7%.... 57/169..... 34.8%.. 116/307..... 37.4%... 174/465

Derozan. 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201942/stats/shooting/):... 41.8%.. 71/170...... 42.5%.... 96/226...... 38.9%.. 129/332..... 38.0%... 211/555

Butler. 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/202710/stats/shooting/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):...... 36.7%... 29/79....... 36.9%.... 41/111...... 37.9%... 78/206...... 36.8%... 138/375

Lebron.. 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season):.....38.1%.. 43/113...... 33.3%..... 33/99...... 42.4%.... 64/151...... 35.1%... 118/357







.

[kshutts1]

Multiple threads saying the same thing (your specialty) and you refuse to acknowledge the following point...

Consider the type of offense ran by all players.

Pippen played in the triangle, an offense whose purpose is to move the ball and allow, more or less, equal opportunity. Pippen's stats (aside from assists), with and without Jordan, are nearly identical. This is because Pippen was playing within a relatively constrictive offense. He took the same amount of shots, made the same amount, at the same percentage.

His assists took a dive because he replaced an GOAT tier talent with a D league talent. Honestly, the difference is, literally, one assist per game. I would wager all of the money I will make in my life that Pippen got X assists passing to Jordan, and (X - 1+) assists passing to Myers because of scoring-ability differences in the two. That would be LITERALLY the difference.

All of the other players played in a ball-dominant offense that featured a centerpiece. They were the center piece. Of course their numbers will be higher when they are the centerpiece than when they are not.

Please try to refute what I said, in particular the bolded portions.

[Hey Yo]

Two things the stats show us:

1) Lebron's presence significantly lowers the APG and assist percentage of his teammates, as seen with Wade, Kyrie, Mo Williams, Bosh, and Love.

2) Since he reduces the assist rate of his teammates, it's no surprise that virtually all of his TEAMS have very low assist frequency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446).
Bosh with Toronto, lowest assist avg. for a year 1.0....with Miami 1.1

Love with Minny, (not counting rookie year) lowest 1.5.......with Cleveland 2.4

Kyrie lowest w/o LeBron, 5.4.....lowest with 5.2

Mo's lowest (not counting his rookie year) w/o 4.0......with, 4.1

Wade's lowest 4.5....with LeBron 4.6.

So as you can see folks, these players have had their worst statistical assist avg. while playing with LeBron.

:rolleyes:

[3ball]

.
Jordan was a FAR better shooter than Curry inside 20 feet:




.....................MJ 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)...................Cur ry 2015 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)............ Curry 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/) <--- link to nba.com data

5-9 ft.......... 49.2%, 126 fga........... 40.3%, 72 fga.......... 48.6%, 72 fga

10-14 ft....... 51.5%, 466 fga........... 52.9%, 85 fga.......... 50.9%, 57 fga

15-19 ft....... 49.5%, 594 fga........... 43.9%, 132 fga........ 37.3%, 102 fga



Overall midrange % (all shots inside the 3-point line but outside the paint)

JORDAN 1997:. 49.3%, 1202 fga
CURRY.. 2015:. 41.1%, 285 fga
CURRY.. 2016:. 42.5%, 200 fga

.

[3ball]

.
Assist Percentage 1991-1993 Playoffs:


Jordan (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced): 31.1%
Pippen (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced): 23.3%



Assist Percentage 1996-1998 Playoffs:


Jordan (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced): 22.3%
Pippen (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced): 22.0%


Click on Jordan or Pippen for links to source data at basketball-reference.com.
.

[3ball]

.
In the 1991 Finals, MJ guarded Magic Johnson for 14 of the 20 quarters (70%) to Pippen's 6 of 20 quarters (30%).

Specifically, Pippen guarded Magic for the 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters of Game 2... the 2nd and 3rd quarters of Game 3... the last 4 minutes of Game 4, and none in Games 1 or 5.. Here's all 5 games in their entirety:

Game 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncUC9fSFdik
Game 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S6AWPT6fG0
Game 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cueGQChyFuU
Game 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO0LJVxaqD0
Game 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCNFQSBUe5c
.

[3ball]

.
Since Lebron significantly lowers the APG and assist % of his teammates:


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)


Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), .8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'): 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)
Irving apg and assist % with... Lebron (2015):... 5.2, 25.0%


Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN: 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:. 2.2, 10.7%

Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron: 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron: 4.1, 20.1%



Naturally, Lebron's all of TEAMS have low assist frequency relative to his peers's teams:


POSSESSIONS PER ASSIST (HIGHER NUMBER MEANS LESS PASSING)


2015 Cavs: 92.3/22.1 = 4.18
2014 Heat: 91.2/22.5 = 4.05
2013 Heat: 90.7/23.0 = 3.94
2012 Heat: 91.2/20.0 = 4.56
2011 Heat: 90.9/20.0 = 4.55
2010 Cavs: 91.4/22.4 = 4.08
2009 Cavs: 88.7/20.3 = 4.37
2008 Cavs: 90.2/20.0 = 4.51
2007 Cavs: 90.8/20.8 = 4.37
2006 Cavs: 89.8/19.0 = 4.72


1998 Bulls: 89.0/23.8 = 3.74
1997 Bulls: 90.0/26.1 = 3.45
1996 Bulls: 91.1/24.8 = 3.67
1993 Bulls: 92.5/26.0 = 3.56
1992 Bulls: 94.4/27.8 = 3.40
1991 Bulls: 95.6/27.0 = 3.54
1990 Bulls: 96.7/26.5 = 3.65
1989 Bulls: 97.0/27.0 = 3.59
1988 Bulls: 95.5/26.2 = 3.65
1987 Bulls: 95.8/26.1 = 3.67
1985 Bulls: 99.4/24.3 = 4.09


2015 GSW:.. 98.3/27.4 = 3.59
2014 Spurs:. 95.0/25.2 = 3.77
2011 Mavs:.. 91.3/23.8 = 3.84
2007 Spurs:. 89.8/22.1 = 4.06

1987 Lakers: 101.6/29.6 = 3.43
1986 Celtics: 102.1/29.1 = 3.47

Source: basketball-reference.com
.

[Hey Yo]

The OP's stats shows teammates' APG and assist % with and without Lebron:


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)


Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), .8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'): 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)
Irving apg and assist % with... Lebron (2015):... 5.2, 25.0%


Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN: 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:. 2.2, 10.7%

Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron: 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron: 4.1, 20.1%


Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 91'-93': 6.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game), 24.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % w/out Jordan 94'-95': 5.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game), 23.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 96'-98': 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game), 25.1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced)

Bosh with Toronto, lowest assist avg. for a year 1.0....with Miami 1.1

Love with Minny, (not counting rookie year) lowest 1.5.......with Cleveland 2.4

Kyrie lowest w/o LeBron, 5.4.....lowest with 5.2

Mo's lowest (not counting his rookie year) w/o 4.0......with, 4.1

Wade's lowest 4.5....with LeBron 4.6.

Where's the significance?? :confusedshrug:

[Hey Yo]

Are you stupid?

I posted the AVERAGES of their assist averages with and without Lebron.. Your comparison of the lowest season compared to the lowest season is garbage.
But their worst season w/o should be significantly better than their worst year with LeBron, ya dope.

It's not garbage, it's FACT

LOL @ significantly lower.

what next, you gonna compare in game used jockstraps?

[3ball]

.
Assist Percentage 1991-1993 Playoffs:

Jordan: 31.1%
Pippen: 23.3%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:playoffs_advanced


Assist Percentage 1996-1998 Playoffs:

Jordan: 22.3%
Pippen: 22.0%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:playoffs_advanced
.

[sd3035]

3ball

http://reactiongif.org/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/08/Troll-Dad-GIF.gif




Lebald fanboys

http://cdn.niketalk.com/a/a3/900x900px-LL-a3c00475_1.gif

[warriorfan]

Keep up the good work.

[ShawkFactory]

3ball craters my brain cells

[kshutts1]

Wtf are you talking about - I just made two threads that posted stats showing Lebron significantly reduced the assists of teammates and that all his teams have very low assist frequency - YOU are the one not responding to or acknowledging these statistical facts.



Pippen played in the triangle with and without Jordan, so the type of offense has no impact on why Pippen's assists were higher WITH Jordan, and lower without.


My entire response was geared toward your premise :facepalm
And of course type of offense matters, just as the quality of teammates matter.
Offense matters more in regards to Bosh, Irving, Wade, whereas teammates matter in terms of Pippen.

You are the one that is failing to recognize the contextual differences created by running completely different offenses, and also by having significantly worse teammates.

[3ball]

.
...........Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4) <---- these are links to nba.com data
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2015... 30.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 38.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 35.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 42.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 44.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
..

[Hey Yo]

Bosh with Toronto, lowest assist avg. for a year 1.0....with Miami 1.1

Love with Minny, (not counting rookie year) lowest 1.5.......with Cleveland 2.4

Kyrie lowest w/o LeBron, 5.4.....lowest with 5.2

Mo's lowest (not counting his rookie year) w/o 4.0......with, 4.1

Wade's lowest 4.5....with LeBron 4.6.

Where's the significant reduction?

[3ball]

.
................Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4) <--- links to nba.com data
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

CURRY 2015..... 29.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 36.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 36.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 29.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 40.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
CURRY 2016..... 35.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/usage/)..... 39.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/usage/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)
.

[dunksby]

Where them OP is a ****** memes at?

[3ball]

Where them OP is a ****** memes at?
As the stats show, Lebron's presence significantly lowered the APG and assist percentage of Dwayne Wade, Kyrie Irving, Mo Williams, Kevin Love and Chris Bosh - these guys went from playmakers that generated action and got assists, to play-finishers that didn't make plays or get assists - this is a statistical fact.. Their lower assist rates explains why Lebron's TEAMS have always had very low assist frequency (shown above).

The statistical reality is that Lebron's presence as an additional, low-assisted ball-dominator (in addition to the PG) creates an inequitable distribution of playmaking that prevents the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that all the great teams use (90's Bulls, Spurs, Kerr's Warriors)... Since Lebron's ball-dominance prevents his teams from playing the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented opponents are able to pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..

Otoh, MJ's off-ball game allowed his teams to play an equal-opportunity offense and the best brand of basketball, which meant that equal or less-talented opponents could never pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball - MJ's teams were never upset by equal or lesser talented teams.. Btw, it takes more ability to achieve great stats within an equal-opportunity, winning framework, than the grade school-level, clearout/playground style that ball-dominators like Lebron need to get their numbers.

[Straight_Ballin]

horseshit - why didn't Pippen's assists go down alongisde MJ - instead, Pippen's assists went UP alongisde MJ (the stats are in the OP).

otoh, everyone else's cratered alongside lebron..... whereas pippen's went UP alongside Jordan and DOWN when Jordan wasn't there... hmmm....

what was it about mj's presence that made it easier for Pippen to get an assist... hmmmm... that's a tough one boss.. ahem... highly-assisted off-ball play.. ahem
.

Can't really use Pippen. bron can't outplay pippen in any scenario, so you think wade as a 2nd option can? I agree, Lebron is a cancer and that's why his teammates are rendered near useless for assists because he has the ball in his hand so much when he should actually be playing within the flow of the offense like Jordan did. Just another reason why Bron is inferior to Jordan.

[Hey Yo]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/significant

Significant:

large enough to be noticed or have an effect

you're welcome, chico.

[3ball]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/significant

Significant:

large enough to be noticed or have an effect


Wade's assists declined 35% alongside Lebron.

Mo Williams' assists declined 40% alongside Lebron.

Bosh's assists declined 25% alongside Lebron and Love's declined 12%.

Kyrie's assists declined 12% alongside Lebron.


EVERYONE'S assists declined alongside Lebron, and of these differences would be defined as "significant"... Otoh, Pippen's assists INCREASED 20% alongside Jordan.

[kshutts1]

Better teammates?... Wade > Pippen.... and Bosh/Love/Kyrie are better than any other teammate MJ ever had.

Your response makes no sense and doesn't refute the statistical reality that:

1) Lebron significantly reduces the assists of teammates (Wade/Bosh/Love/Mo/Kyrie)
2) All of his teams for his entire 11-year career had very low assist frequency.
.
Reading comprehension fail. Wow.

[Hey Yo]

Wade's assists declined 35% alongside Lebron.

Mo Williams' assists declined 40% alongside Lebron.

Bosh's assists declined 25% alongside Lebron and Love's declined 12%.

Kyrie's assists declined 12% alongside Lebron.


EVERYONE'S assists declined alongside Lebron, and of these differences would be defined as "significant"... Otoh, Pippen's assists INCREASED 20% alongside Jordan.
Bosh, Love and Kyrie is significant?

Significant:

large enough to be noticed or have an effect

Thanks for the :oldlol: and keep reachin, yo.

[3ball]

.
Here's Lebron's effective FG% on all "jumpshots" and "midrange" from stats.nba.com (midrange is defined as all shots inside 3-point line but outside paint):


.................eFG% All Jumpshots.................. Midrange

Lebron 2004 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2003-04&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 35.6%, 324/998............ 33.2%, 183/551
Lebron 2005 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2004-05&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 39.9%, 400/1136.......... 36.0%, 217/602
Lebron 2006 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 41.7%, 423/1166.......... 38.4%, 242/630
Lebron 2007 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 39.5%, 372/1066.......... 35.1%, 204/581
Lebron 2008 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 39.4%, 338/1001.......... 36.4%, 185/508
Lebron 2009 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 42.2%, 366/1024.......... 36.8%, 193/525
Lebron 2010 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 43.4%, 356/970............ 38.8%, 188/444
Lebron 2011 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2010-11&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 45.4%, 393/968............ 44.6%, 217/487
Lebron 2012 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 43.7%, 290/726............ 42.3%, 188/444
Lebron 2013 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 49.0%, 333/784............ 43.2%, 174/403
Lebron 2014 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 47.0%, 288/736............ 38.5%, 126/327
Lebron 2015 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 43.1%, 280/788............ 37.0%, 127/343
Lebron 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 39.0%, 181/543............ 37.1%, 96/259

Jordan 1997 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 51.2%, 727/1528........... 48.9%, 588/1202

Currry 2015 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 56.0%, 424/1029........... 41.1%, 117/285
Currry 2016 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201939/stats/shooting/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 62.9%, 389/847............. 45.3%, 67/148

As you can see, Lebron's jumpshooting has been near the bottom of the league for nearly his ENTIRE CAREER - otoh, Kobe's jumpshooting was never considered among the league's worst.
.

[3ball]

Thanks for the keep reaching


http://i.imgur.com/inBAcvB.gif


Lebron's teams are a lot like the Team USA squads he played for in 2004 and 2006 that lost 5 times to international teams with FAR less talent - the USA played such a vastly inferior brand of basketball at the time, that it more than offset their massive talent advantage..

This is the same as Lebron's NBA teams - his ball-dominant presence reduces the assist rate of his teammates and teams, while also preventing equal-opportunity and the best brand of basketball.. Since Lebron prevents his teams from playing the best brand of basketball, his teams are upset by equal or less-talented opponents that play a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014), just like many international teams upset the US in the mid-2000's Olympics.
.

[sdot_thadon]

Significant :oldlol:

[3ball]

http://i.imgur.com/inBAcvB.gif


Lebron's teams are a lot like the Team USA squads he played for in 2004 and 2006 that lost 5 times to international teams with FAR less talent - the USA played such a vastly inferior brand of basketball at the time, that it more than offset their massive talent advantage..

This is the same as Lebron's NBA teams - his ball-dominant presence reduces the assist rate of his teammates and teams, while also preventing equal-opportunity and the best brand of basketball.. Since Lebron prevents his teams from playing the best brand of basketball, his teams are upset by equal or less-talented opponents that play a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014), just like many international teams upset the US in the mid-2000's Olympics.


http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Is-There-Anyone-Else-Achilles-In-Troy.gif


https://media.giphy.com/media/qaFduOMYKkmwE/giphy.gif

[3ball]

.

When Lebron's reduces the assist rate of his teammates and team, the team plays a worse brand of basketball and loses to a far less talented team:


http://i.imgur.com/inBAcvB.gif

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MQmXy-g7bHQ/U55YJiPhrAI/AAAAAAAAHmE/SxmlR-Ep7rk/s1600/leb.gif

[Hey Yo]

This is what happens when you quit the NBA to try to become the next Bo Jackson


http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--1kmyPiN7--/18j58638lzswkjpg.jpg

[knicksman]

http://i.imgur.com/inBAcvB.gif


Lebron's teams are a lot like the Team USA squads he played for in 2004 and 2006 that lost 5 times to international teams with FAR less talent - the USA played such a vastly inferior brand of basketball at the time, that it more than offset their massive talent advantage..

This is the same as Lebron's NBA teams - his ball-dominant presence reduces the assist rate of his teammates and teams, while also preventing equal-opportunity and the best brand of basketball.. Since Lebron prevents his teams from playing the best brand of basketball, his teams are upset by equal or less-talented opponents that play a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014), just like many international teams upset the US in the mid-2000's Olympics.
.

Burned.

This is the reason why bran has to collude. Coz he cant win with equal supporting casts

[sdot_thadon]

So, since we're on a similar subject....why not tell everyone what effect Mj presence or absence has on his teammates' ppg and usage rates? I'm sure you did all your homework 1st since you're such a great scientist.:applause:

[pauk]

.
Since Lebron significantly lowers the APG and assist % of his teammates:


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)


Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), .8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'): 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)
Irving apg and assist % with... Lebron (2015):... 5.2, 25.0%


Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN: 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:. 2.2, 10.7%

Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron: 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron: 4.1, 20.1%



Naturally, Lebron's all of TEAMS have low assist rates relative to the competition:


POSSESSIONS PER ASSIST (HIGHER NUMBER MEANS LESS PASSING)


2015 Cavs: 92.3/22.1 = 4.18
2014 Heat: 91.2/22.5 = 4.05
2013 Heat: 90.7/23.0 = 3.94
2012 Heat: 91.2/20.0 = 4.56
2011 Heat: 90.9/20.0 = 4.55
2010 Cavs: 91.4/22.4 = 4.08
2009 Cavs: 88.7/20.3 = 4.37
2008 Cavs: 90.2/20.0 = 4.51
2007 Cavs: 90.8/20.8 = 4.37
2006 Cavs: 89.8/19.0 = 4.72


1998 Bulls: 89.0/23.8 = 3.74
1997 Bulls: 90.0/26.1 = 3.45
1996 Bulls: 91.1/24.8 = 3.67
1993 Bulls: 92.5/26.0 = 3.56
1992 Bulls: 94.4/27.8 = 3.40
1991 Bulls: 95.6/27.0 = 3.54
1990 Bulls: 96.7/26.5 = 3.65
1989 Bulls: 97.0/27.0 = 3.59
1988 Bulls: 95.5/26.2 = 3.65
1987 Bulls: 95.8/26.1 = 3.67
1985 Bulls: 99.4/24.3 = 4.09


2015 GSW:.. 98.3/27.4 = 3.59
2014 Spurs:. 95.0/25.2 = 3.77
2011 Mavs:.. 91.3/23.8 = 3.84
2007 Spurs:. 89.8/22.1 = 4.06

1987 Lakers: 101.6/29.6 = 3.43
1986 Celtics: 102.1/29.1 = 3.47

Source: basketball-reference.com


Lebron's presence significantly lowered the APG and assist percentage of Dwayne Wade, Kyrie Irving, Mo Williams, Kevin Love and Chris Bosh - these guys went from playmakers that generated action and got assists, to play-finishers that didn't make plays or get assists - this is a statistical fact.. Their lower assist rates explains why Lebron's TEAMS have always had very low assist frequency (shown above).

The statistical reality is that Lebron's presence as an additional, low-assisted ball-dominator (in addition to the PG) creates an inequitable distribution of playmaking that prevents the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that all the great teams use (90's Bulls, Spurs, Kerr's Warriors)... Since Lebron's ball-dominance prevents his teams from playing the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented opponents are able to pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..

Otoh, MJ's off-ball game allowed his teams to play an equal-opportunity offense and the best brand of basketball, which meant that equal or less-talented opponents could never pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball - MJ's teams were never upset by equal or lesser talented teams.. Btw, it takes more ability to achieve great stats within an equal-opportunity, winning framework, than the grade school-level, clearout/playground style that ball-dominators like Lebron need to get their numbers.
.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bijbF3gkNk

[Optimus Prime]

Who cares about teammates? The only thing that matters:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_FDeMx3L6-DQ/TPgiyl7PbtI/AAAAAAAAASI/yvr0bCxE7IQ/s400/news_lebron-james-check-my-stats-1.jpg

:kobe:

[sd3035]

Perhaps the NBA's plan to manufacture a fraudulent superstar is starting to backfire

I've never seen a supposed all time great so ridiculed and disrespected in their prime :roll:

[3ball]

.
HERE'S WHY MJ WINS 2014 FINALS


.
Dallas and OKC hold Kawhi to 12 ppg on ~45%


Result: competitive series


Portland and Heat let Kawhi score 18 ppg on ~57%


Result: Massacre


If Lebron could've held role player Kawhi to 12 ppg on sub-40% like DAL and OKC did, instead of letting him be > Duncan, the series would've been competitive, just like DAL and OKC... In addition to the better defense, if Lebron adds the offensive aggressionAS WELL by doubling his shot attempts like he did in 2015 Finals (which won 2 games with worse supporting cast against better team), the Heat WIN.

MJ would've done both of these things - he never let Byron Russell be better than Karl Malone.. If he had, the Bulls would've been blown away as well.. And he would've been far more aggressive offensively - the combination of Jordan's superior play on BOTH sides of the ball would've led the Heat to victory.. Oh, and Jordan would never get carried off the floor in Game 1 - it's kind of hard to hold teammates accountable on both sides of the ball after that.

But most importantly, the entire Heat TEAM would've been playing a different and superior brand of basketball all year long, because MJ was an off-ball player like Curry, not a ball-dominator that diminishes teammates like Lebron... And the team would've had more heart to continue persevering past the midpoint in Game 3, when the Heat simply GAVE UP.

[3ball]

.
Lebron achieves his APG by significantly lowering his teammates' APG and assist %:


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'):. 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'):. 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'):. 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)
Irving apg and assist % with..... Lebron (2015):.. 5.2, 25.0%

Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'):.. 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'):.. 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), .8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN:. 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:.. 2.2, 10.7%

Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron:.. 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron:.. 4.1, 20.1%

FYI...

Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 91'-93':. 6.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game), 24.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % w/out Jordan 94'-95':. 5.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game), 23.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 96'-98':. 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game), 25.1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced)


It's bad enough that Lebron reduces his teammates' APG (playmaking), but he also increases their assisted rate (play-finishing)!!!... Therefore, it's statistical fact that Lebron turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers.

Unfortunately, his teammates' predictable play-finishing roles don't work against the best playoff teams - since teammates are playing undercapacity, the TEAM plays undercapacity/underperforms (i.e. losing as the favorite in 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, and 2011 Finals, or losing when it was 50/50 - 2014 Finals) (http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2014/06/nba_finals_2014_experts_predict_whether_the_heat_o r_spurs_will_come_out_on_top_in_the_finals_rematch .html).

That's the difference between 2/6 and 6/6.. MJ got the most out of his teammates (elevates teammates), while Lebron doesn't (he turns them into play-finishers).

Now the question is WHY SPECIFICALLY does Lebron turn teammates into play-finishers?.. The reason is twofold (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12056301&postcount=60).






He just needs a better coach


Lebron doesn't know how to play any other way besides dominating the ball, so a different coach wouldn't help - he's already had plenty of coaches from all over the world.. Lebron's ball-dominance and the subsequent reduction of teammates into play-finishers simply takes over every team he's on.. It's called Lebron-ball, and Lebron can't do anything else.

Look at Miami - with Wade there, Lebron had the best incentive to play off-ball... But he couldn't do it - he's not capable of playing that way..

You simply can't run the Warriors offense or the triangle with Lebron on the floor, PERIOD.. Lebron-ball simply takes over, because that's the only way he knows how to play.

Can you imagine the Warriors, Spurs, or 90's Bulls turning their 70-win juggernauts of optimal chemistry and teamwork into disgusting Lebron-ball?... I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.



.
Here's Lebron's FG% on all "jumpshots" and "midrange" from stats.nba.com (midrange is defined as all shots inside 3-point line but outside paint):


.........All Jumpshots................... Midrange

2004: 32.5%, 324/998............ 33.2%, 183/551
2005: 35.2%, 400/1136.......... 36.0%, 217/602
2006: 36.3%, 423/1166.......... 38.4%, 242/630
2007: 34.9%, 372/1066.......... 35.1%, 204/581
2008: 33.8%, 338/1001.......... 36.4%, 185/508
2009: 35.7%, 366/1024.......... 36.8%, 193/525
2010: 36.7%, 356/970........... 38.8%, 188/444
2011: 40.6%, 393/968........... 44.6%, 217/487
2012: 39.9%, 290/726........... 42.3%, 188/444
2013: 42.5%, 333/784........... 43.2%, 174/403
2014: 39.1%, 288/736........... 38.5%, 126/327
2015: 35.5%, 280/788........... 37.0%, 127/343
2016: 33.1%, 114/331........... 36.6%, 56/163


As you can see, Lebron's jumpshooting has been near the bottom of the league for nearly his ENTIRE CAREER - otoh, Kobe's jumpshooting was never considered among the league's worst.





Where were you making these claims during his 14' finals? How about nearly his whole time at Miami?


You don't realize how dumb Lebron and the Heat were in 2014.. In the Finals, the Heat shot better than any other Spurs opponent (DAL, POR, OKC), yet they lost by the most.

Why is this?.. Because the Heat were so wrapped up in their efficiency strategy, that they lost sight of what wins games - POINTS - the more points you score, the better chance you have to win, irregardless of efficiency.

This was proven by the stats.. Again, the Heat shot the best, but lost by the most and had the widest differential in ORtg ever.. Otoh, the stat that ACTUALLY affected the ORtg differential was PPG:

DAL scored the most ppg vs. Spurs, and their disadvantage in ORtg was the smallest.. OKC scored the 2nd most ppg, and their disadvantage in ORtg was the 2nd smallest.. POR scored the 3rd most, and their disadvantage was the 3rd smallest... And of course, Miami, with their dumb efficiency strategy, scored the least ppg, and their disadvantage in ORtg was the most, BY FAR..






THE most important aspect of offense: SPACING.[/I]

3-point shooting spaces-out defenders.. Accordingly, the level of spacing in a given era affects the way defense is played - defenders either make extra rotations due to 3-point shooting/spaced-out defenders (today's era), or defenders have less rotations due to no spacing/bunched-up defenders (previous eras).

Ultimately, improvements in spacing over the years have been offset by extra rotations on defense, which is why league-wide offensive rating (the stat measuring how hard it is to score) has been stable for 30 years.. ORtg has ranged between 105 and 108 since 1980, excluding a brief downswing from 1999-2004.

The minor shifts within that 105-108 range are due to style of play differences between the eras that affect inputs to the ORtg calculation, such as offensive rebounding rate and FT rate.. Specifically, the higher proportion of 2-pointers taken in previous eras resulted in higher offensive rebounding rate, which inflated ORtg.. That's how the stat is calculated - notice how (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html) as 3-pointers increase over the years, offensive rebounding rate declines, which reduced ORtg.. Nonetheless, the rule changes in 2005 (hand-check ban and defensive 3 seconds) began to inflate ORtg again, and it reached all-time highs from 2008-2011.

But again, regardless of these minor shifts, ORtg has remained within the 105-108 range for 30 years - stable ORtg over the years proves the difficulty of scoring hasn't changed, and the changes in offensive strategy (spacing) and defensive strategy (extra rotations) are offsetting - you either have extra rotations required by spacing and defensive 3 seconds (today's game), or the rotations aren't necessary because there is no spacing or defensive 3 seconds (previous eras)

[kshutts1]

Did you just pull a HurricecanKid quote from a different thread?!? I didn't remember him being in this thread, so I checked... and didn't see him. Did I miss something?

In all seriousness, what is wrong with you?

[Nuff Said]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

It's crazy because Cleveland could've won the series had they had a capable scorer. GS didn't exactly play at their RS level. The chip was up for grabs. And who cares about Lebron's rebounds when he had a backcourt fully capable of grabbing those boards. He should be pushing the tempo and rushing down court while the bugs do their job. He wasn't really a floor general in this series either. The cavs had no offense. Good passer but can't really control the game and force his will.

[LAZERUSS]

I have given up in these "anti Lebron" threads.

Here is REALITY.

Lebron joined a team that had gone 17-65 the year before, and immediately doubled their wins. Within a couple of years he led a cast of scrubs to the Cavs first ever Finals. He guided that same cast of goofballs to a team record of 66-16, and then to a 61-21 record. He left that team to go to Miami, and guess what? The Cavs fell to 19-63.

He joined a Heat team that had gone 47-35 and were first round cannon-fodder, and took them to a 58-24 record and a trip to the Finals. In his four seasons with the Heat they went to four straight Finals, won two of them, and set a team record with a 66-16 record. Furthermore, they went 47-18 in the games in which Wade missed. He left the Heat, and they immediately plummeted to a 37-45 record, and missed the playoffs.

He joined a Cavs team that had gone 33-49 the year before, and immediately led them to a 53-29 record. Oh, and in the games in which he missed, they went 3-10. With him... 50-19.

He took that roster, with injuries to his two best teammates, to the Finals, where he single-handedly won two games, and nearly won two more, against a 67-15 Warrior team that had murdered their rivals in what was arguably the toughest conference in many seasons.

[warriorfan]

I have given up in these "anti Lebron" threads.

Here is REALITY.

Lebron joined a team that had gone 17-65 the year before, and immediately doubled their wins. Within a couple of years he led a cast of scrubs to the Cavs first ever Finals. He guided that same cast of goofballs to a team record of 66-16, and then to a 61-21 record. He left that team to go to Miami, and guess what? The Cavs fell to 19-63.

He joined a Heat team that had gone 47-35 and were first round cannon-fodder, and took them to a 58-24 record and a trip to the Finals. In his four seasons with the Heat they went to four straight Finals, won two of them, and set a team record with a 66-16 record. Furthermore, they went 47-18 in the games in which Wade missed. He left the Heat, and they immediately plummeted to a 37-45 record, and missed the playoffs.

He joined a Cavs team that had gone 33-49 the year before, and immediately led them to a 53-29 record. Oh, and in the games in which he missed, they went 3-10. With him... 50-19.

He took that roster, with injuries to his two best teammates, to the Finals, where he single-handedly won two games, and nearly won two more, against a 67-15 Warrior team that had murdered their rivals in what was arguably the toughest conference in many seasons.

Cliffnotes: 2/6

[LAZERUSS]

Cliffnotes: 2/6


Cliffnotes:

Curry 1/6.

Played six seasons in the NBA, could only get his team to one Finals, and watched while a backup led that team to a ring. Hell, Lebron, on a losing team, outvoted him 4-0 in the FMVP balloting.

Lebron >>>>>>>>>>>>> Curry. Not even close my friend.

[warriorfan]

Cliffnotes:

Curry 1/6.

Played six seasons in the NBA, could only get his team to one Finals, and watched while a backup led that team to a ring. Hell, Lebron, on a losing team, outvoted him 4-0 in the FMVP balloting.

Lebron >>>>>>>>>>>>> Curry. Not even close my friend.

Curry is 1/1, brought a title to the team he was drafted to with no other hall of fame teammates.

Let me know when bran does that....

[warriorfan]

Curry is 1/1, brought a title to the team he was drafted to with no other hall of fame teammates.

Let me know when bran does that....

kgreaction.gif

[DatAsh]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

It's crazy because Cleveland could've won the series had they had a capable scorer. GS didn't exactly play at their RS level. The chip was up for grabs.

This.

GS played terribly relative to what they were capable of. With Love and Irving out, and Lebron in a shooting slump, Cleveland was probably one of the weakest teams ever in the finals, and they still took 2 games from GS.

Even without another scorer, if Lebron was his normal self, it would have been a competitive series.

[HurricaneKid]

Horseshit - in 1991, Pippen wasn't all-nba or even an all-star.

1991 was one of only 3 times that anyone WON a ring with only 1 all-star on the team.. Plenty of guys have just MADE the Finals with only 1 all-star.. :rolleyes:

You guys are really delusional - just making up stuff - any lie is fine for you guys if it makes Lebron look better.. :rolleyes:



Exactly - MJ's stats in the 1991 Finals were far better than Lebron's 2015 Finals and he did much better than just winning a couple games - MJ won the entire series against the greatest PG of all time and top 5 all-time player - MJ destroyed Magic mono-a-mono... Lebron has never destroyed a top 5 all-time player and never will.

Everything Lebron has done in his career pales in comparison to MJ's 1991 Finals and MJ's entire prime for that matter, statistically and accolade/stature-wise.
.

I'm honored that someone I have on IGNORE would think so much of my contributions in a thread would post them in another thread (taking them out of context in the process).

Thanks Shutts for pointing out how low 3Ball goes.

The two All NBA player thing was that a team was WITHOUT two players who were All NBA players in the last few seasons. Not that didn't have two on the team but that was playing without two such players. It blows everything you have done all season out of the water and you have to reinvent yourself deep in the playoffs. No team has ever been able to overcome such devastation. But if this were the thread I posted that in it would make far more sense.

[Rocketswin2013]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

It's crazy because Cleveland could've won the series had they had a capable scorer. GS didn't exactly play at their RS level. The chip was up for grabs. And who cares about Lebron's rebounds when he had a backcourt fully capable of grabbing those boards. He should be pushing the tempo and rushing down court while the bugs do their job. He wasn't really a floor general in this series either. The cavs had no offense. Good passer but can't really control the game and force his will.
:facepalm

[PistonsFan#21]

Curry is 1/1, brought a title to the team he was drafted to with no other hall of fame teammates.

Let me know when bran does that....

Andre Iguodala was Finals MVP...so hes more deserving of the credit for that championship actually

[Blue&Orange]

I have given up in these "anti Lebron" threads.

I have given up trying to explain to a retard he is a retard hoping he keeps his mouth shut.

[3ball]

.
................Percentage of team points scored while player was on floor


.........................RS.....RS 4th.... PO....PO 4th....Finals.. Finals 4th


JORDAN 1997... 36.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 40.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 37.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 46.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 40.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 50.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
JORDAN 1998... 36.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 42.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 39.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 48.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 43.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 49.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)


SHAQ 2000....... 35.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 39.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 38.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 43.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2001....... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 38.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 35.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 26.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
SHAQ 2002....... 33.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 35.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 25.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 38.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 28.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/406/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)


PIPPEN 1997.... 24.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 22.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 24.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 25.6 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 25.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 26.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
PIPPEN 1998.... 24.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 19.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 21.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 15.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 22.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 14.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/937/stats/usage/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)


KOBE 2000....... 27.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 29.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 26.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 27.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 19.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 15.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
KOBE 2001....... 32.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 34.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 31.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 37.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 25.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 23.7 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4&Period=4)
KOBE 2002....... 30.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 31.3 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 29.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 34.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 27.2 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 32.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

KOBE 2008....... 31.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)..... 36.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&Period=4)..... 33.9 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 41.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4)...... 30.4 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)...... 32.1 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/usage/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)

LEBRON 2009.... 35.0..... 39.3..... 41.5..... 42.4
LEBRON 2010.... 34.6..... 44.4..... 32.6..... 40.3
LEBRON 2011.... 32.0..... 32.8..... 28.1..... 30.7...... 21.4...... 14.8 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2010-11&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)
LEBRON 2012.... 34.2..... 33.8..... 34.5..... 34.9...... 30.0...... 33.3
LEBRON 2013.... 32.1..... 32.1..... 30.6..... 36.0...... 29.3...... 39.1
LEBRON 2014.... 33.1..... 38.2..... 35.3..... 32.1...... 39.6...... 29.5
LEBRON 2015.... 30.1..... 38.9..... 35.0 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs)..... 42.4...... 40.0...... 44.5 (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/usage/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Playoffs&Period=4&PORound=4)


As you can see, 34-35 year old MJ scored a much higher proportion of his team's points while on the floor than everyone, including PRIME SHAQ and especially in the 4th quarter.. (Shaq got twice the reb & blk, but MJ got twice the apg & spg, so we're left with pts).

And Jordan's 1997/1998 teams were supposed to be more "stacked" (:rolleyes:) than the first 3-peat teams from his prime - so just imagine if we had the stats from MJ's prime - he probably scored 60-70% of his team's points while on the floor.
.

[aquaadverse]

Lebron is 2/6 in the Finals - he beat the best Western Conference team only twice, so if he was in the Western Conference, he would've made only 2 Finals in his entire career.

That's why merely MAKING the Finals is not an accomplishment that all-time greats ever get credit for - everyone knows that the Finals loser would never have made the Finals in the other conference.. :confusedshrug:

This idea that merely making the Finals is an accomplishment that compares to winning the Finals is a new idea purported by new fans only... 15 years from now, those same new fans will understand how dumb they are when the new fans 15 years from now start saying that making the conference finals is equal to making the Finals.. :rolleyes:



If Lebron shot 51% on his repeated clearouts in the Finals instead of 39.8%, Cleveland could've easily won the series with Lebron averaging less rebounds and assists.. :confusedshrug:

That's why I always laugh when people use the argument "Lebron leads his team in pts, rebs, assists...".. They fail to realize that MJ's 8-point and 6-point scoring advantage in the Finals and playoffs respectively (plus greater clutch), are worth much more than a couple extra defensive rebounds..

So who cares whether Lebron leads his team in pts, rebs, and assists - MJ leads his team in pts and assists, and he's SO far ahead of Lebron scoring-wise and clutch, it more than offsets his 2-rebound deficit.. It's pretty intuitive and basic common knowledge that 6-8 more ppg is worth more than a couple defensive rebounds, particularly for the #1 option.

You should just make a Wikipedia page and post the link. Save yourself a bunch of cutting and pasting all your repetitive stuff.

[warriorfan]

Andre Iguodala was Finals MVP...so hes more deserving of the credit for that championship actually

:biggums:

[red1]

Cliffnotes:

Curry 1/6.

Played six seasons in the NBA, could only get his team to one Finals, and watched while a backup led that team to a ring. Hell, Lebron, on a losing team, outvoted him 4-0 in the FMVP balloting.

Lebron >>>>>>>>>>>>> Curry. Not even close my friend.
:roll:


absolute ether.

[red1]

Andre Iguodala was Finals MVP...so hes more deserving of the credit for that championship actually
:eek: warriors fan getting that bukkake ***-dumpster treatment

[warriorfan]

:eek: warriors fan getting that bukkake ***-dumpster treatment

Are you mad?

[red1]

Are you mad?
just amused. admit it, those posts were good

[warriorfan]

just amused. admit it, those posts were good

Ok, you seemed upset. This isn't the first time as well. If you need to talk or something that's cool.

Pm me.

[red1]

Ok, you seemed upset. This isn't the first time as well. If you need to talk or something that's cool.

Pm me.
Same to you my friend