L Messi is nice, Pele also, Cryuff OK...but El Diego GOAT, deal with it

[TheMan]

Nobody greater than El Diego Armando Maradona...y'all forget too easily or never saw prime Maradona. How lucky were the sports fans watching in the 80s, Maradona in futbol, Magic, Bird and MJ in the NBA, Gretzky in the NHL and Joe Montana in the NFL :eek: :bowdown:

Diego sos el mas grande, che!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UH7fI5w9gwo&feature=youtube_gdata_player
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsT-I4TRYTc&feature=youtube_gdata_player
http://www.buenosairesstreetart.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/maradona-street-art-buenos-aires-buenosairesstreetart.com-la-boca-diego-maradona-stencil-mural.jpg

[fiddy]

fenomeno>>>>all

maradona=overrated cokehead

[BlakFrankWhite]

You do know Messi scored 91 goals in a calender year, right?

[West-Side]

http://www.onefootball.com/magazine/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/g14-messi_maradona_europe-700x737.jpg

[SugarHill]

messi just a better version of the coked out tranny lover

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

U can argue many ppl for GOAT in soccer career. Throw Zidane, Muller, Beckenbauer and Di Stefano in there. too many leagues, international comp for there to ever be a consensus GOAT like basketball
Peak Ronaldo is the GOAT tho like peak Shaq for NBA

[West-Side]

U can argue many ppl for GOAT in soccer career. Throw Zidane, Muller, Beckenbauer and Di Stefano in there. too many leagues, international comp for there to ever be a consensus GOAT like basketball
Peak Ronaldo is the GOAT tho like peak Shaq for NBA

Which Ronaldo?

[TheMan]

Maradona singlehandedly carried Argentina to a World Cup title in 86 and if not for a shit call in the final minutes of the 90 WC Final, might have repeated.

The greatest feat in futbol is to lead your team to the most coveted title in sports, the FIFA World Cup, and he almost did it twice!

Messi on the other hand :facepalm Dude was a ghost vs Germany in a very winnable WC Final game.

That's why El Diego is a god in Argentina and Messi is mostly meh amongst his countrymen...

[SugarHill]

Which Ronaldo?
does it matter? neither is right

[West-Side]

Best Year of their careers:

Brazilian Ronaldo: 47 goals in 49 appearances - .96
C. Ronaldo: 61 goals in 54 appearances (22 assists) - 1.13
Messi: 73 goals in 60 appearances (28 assists) - 1.22

Messi had the best peak as well.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Which Ronaldo?
isnt it obvious? the brazil one

[TheMan]

http://www.onefootball.com/magazine/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/g14-messi_maradona_europe-700x737.jpg
I love how this graphic totally ignores international play where Maradona merks Messi :yaohappy:

[West-Side]

Maradona singlehandedly carried Argentina to a World Cup title in 86 and if not for a shit call in the final minutes of the 90 WC Final, might have repeated.

The greatest feat in futbol is to lead your team to the most coveted title in sports, the FIFA World Cup, and he almost did it twice!

Messi on the other hand :facepalm Dude was a ghost vs Germany in a very winnable WC Final game.

That's why El Diego is a god in Argentina and Messi is mostly meh amongst his countrymen...

http://www.onefootball.com/magazine/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/g14-messi_maradona_arg-700x980.jpg

[CeltsGarlic]

http://www.onefootball.com/magazine/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/g14-messi_maradona_arg-700x980.jpg

Messi AKA "Runner up"

[TheMan]

Do you guys know soccer??? Messi plays with loaded ass teams, practically Spain's National Team. Maradona didn't have that luxury :facepalm

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Do you guys know soccer??? Messi plays with loaded ass teams, practically Spain's National Team. Maradona didn't have that luxury :facepalm
Messi is like Steph Curry nikkas always ignore they stacked teams b/c they little dudes with liteskin with a clean "humble " image

[West-Side]

Do you guys know soccer??? Messi plays with loaded ass teams, practically Spain's National Team. Maradona didn't have that luxury :facepalm

That's why I posted their stats.
Messi has scored 141 outside the box goals; while El Diego has only scored 47.
Messi is the GOAT and has little to do with him playing on loaded teams.
You can attribute his team achievements to playing on Barca, but not his individual accolades.
He is just on another level in terms of finishing plays than anyone.
I've already posted the stats of him and CR.
CR takes on average over 100 shots a season and still doesn't score as many goals.
CR is the closest thing to Messi in terms of production yet he has a lower goal per game, assist per game, goal per shot and basically any other significant metrics.

He also has the highest assist ratio among all the greats C.Ronaldo, El Diego and Brazilian Ronaldo.

He has the most "self-created" goals as well.

[ArbitraryWater]

Best Year of their careers:

Brazilian Ronaldo: 47 goals in 49 appearances - .96
C. Ronaldo: 61 goals in 54 appearances (22 assists) - 1.13
Messi: 73 goals in 60 appearances (28 assists) - 1.22

Messi had the best peak as well.

You thinking 2012 Messi is peak Messi already shows you don't know jack shit about football... in fact, all of your breakdowns are horrid, they contain the basic stats, as far as actual football being played? Log off.

[West-Side]

You thinking 2012 Messi is peak Messi already shows you don't know jack shit about football... in fact, all of your breakdowns are horrid, they contain the basic stats, as far as actual football being played? Log off.

Says the guy who literally contributes nothing to this forum besides his lame ass insults.

So you're saying the year in which Messi scored 73 goals and had 28 assists in 60 matches isn't arguably his best ever?

Keep in mind that he helped his club win UEFA Super Cup, Club World Cup, Copa Del Rey and Spanish Super Cup.

Sure in 2010 he helped his team win the Champions League and La Liga, which many consider his best year. But from an individual perspective, I was more impressed by Messi in 2011/2012.

[lakers_forever]

Pele is the greatest. He was like Wilt (crazy scoring numbers) + Russell (titles) + Jordan (scorer, charisma and global superstar).

Maradona and Messi are geniuses as well. Maradona could score, but he was more of a playmaker. I prefer Messi and Pele, who scored like CF's and could playmake like AM.

Site comparing Pele and Messi (both at 28). Pele's teams improved more (% wise) with him on the team. Also, Pele scored a higher % of his teams goals (more fair than gpg, since there was more goals back then). In World Cups is not close. Messi has not scored a single goal in WC knockout games.

http://otaviopinto.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/clubperfomance.jpg

http://otaviopinto.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/NATIONALteam-perfomance.jpg

http://otaviopinto.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/worldcups.jpg

http://otaviopinto.com/index.php/2015/05/16/pele-and-messi-a-comparison-between-two-geniuses/
http://otaviopinto.com/index.php/2015/05/16/part-ii-club-performance/
http://otaviopinto.com/index.php/2015/05/16/part-iii-national-team-performance/
http://otaviopinto.com/index.php/2015/05/16/part-iv-conclusion/

[West-Side]

Pele is the greatest. He was like Wilt (crazy scoring numbers) + Russell (titles) + Jordan (scorer, charisma and global superstar).

Maradona and Messi are geniuses as well. Maradona could score, but he was more of a playmaker. I prefer Messi and Pele, who scored like CF's and could playmake like AM.

Site comparing Pele and Messi (both at 28). Pele's teams improved more (% wise) with him on the team. Also, Pele scored a higher % of his teams goals (more fair than gpg, since there was more goals back then). In World Cups is not close. Messi has not scored a single goal in WC knockout games.

http://otaviopinto.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/clubperfomance.jpg

http://otaviopinto.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/NATIONALteam-perfomance.jpg

http://otaviopinto.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/worldcups.jpg

http://otaviopinto.com/index.php/2015/05/16/pele-and-messi-a-comparison-between-two-geniuses/
http://otaviopinto.com/index.php/2015/05/16/part-ii-club-performance/
http://otaviopinto.com/index.php/2015/05/16/part-iii-national-team-performance/
http://otaviopinto.com/index.php/2015/05/16/part-iv-conclusion/

Pele also played his entire career in Brazil.
Messi has played his entire career on the big stage, against world-class competition.

[lakers_forever]

Pele also played his entire career in Brazil.
Messi has played his entire career on the big stage, against world-class competition.

So? Back in the day, the best football in the world was probably played in Brazil. They won 3 out of 4 world cups with every single squad player from a brazilian club. Search in youtube and find what Santos did to European Champs Benfica. Brazilian who were not close to Pele's level like Altafini moved to Europe and scored like crazy. Imagine what Pele would have done. His average against european teams is exactly the same as his average against brazilian teams...

[West-Side]

So? Back in the day, the best football in the world was probably played in Brazil. They won 3 out of 4 world cups with every single squad player from a brazilian club. Search in youtube and find what Santos did to European Champs Benfica. Brazilian who were not close to Pele's level like Altafini moved to Europe and scored like crazy. Imagine what Pele would have done. His average against european teams is exactly the same as his average against brazilian teams...

All I'm seeing is a bunch of opinions.
Fact is, most say Pele won 3 World Cups; he actually won 2.
He was hurt for most of the tournament when Brazil won its second title.
He was also NEVER the leading scorer in any of the world cups he participated. He had a historically great team around him in Santos. The parity in that league was astonishing. Santos was several tiers above almost every other team.

Second off, over 500+ goals that Pele scored came from unofficial charity and friendly matches. I love how everyone includes that.

He scored 749 officials goals in 804 official matches during his illustrious career. That's a .93 goal per game average.

Messi:
With Barcelona - 287 in 318 (.90)
Domestic Cups - 45 in 62 (.73)
International Cups - 86 in 108 (.80)
National Team - 51 in 101 (.50)

So in total; 469 goals in 589 games (.80)
4 time Champions League winner
7 La Liga's
3 Super Cups
2 FIFA Club World Cup
3 Copa Del Rey
6 Super Cups

The man is also about to win his 5th Ballon d'Or.

https://cdn1.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/TIdx6o-wVBxhw2iY2KgFaHfzhnw=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3493302/10441397_629277837202302_8342077895514649187_n.0.j pg

[West-Side]

The problem with Pele is the same it is with Wilt; it's hard for us to properly evaluate the context of his dominance. He played from 57' to 77'; most of us weren't even born yet when he retired.

This is similar to the Jordan Vs. Wilt argument.
Despite Wilt having better numbers across the board, most people today would consider Jordan the greatest ever.

I read a poll early 2015, with over 10,000 fans voting.
84% of the people claimed Messi is better than both Pele and Maradona.
11% said they were equal.
Only 5% said Messi was not as good.

That's a consensus for you.

[lakers_forever]

Fact is, most say Pele won 3 World Cups; he actually won 2.
He was hurt for most of the tournament when Brazil won its second title.

No. Fact is he won 3. He did inded got hurt in the second out of 6 games in 1962. But he is still a champion that year.

He was also NEVER the leading scorer in any of the world cups he participated.


True. But he was not a CF. He was the 10, just like Messi. He scored a lot because he was a genius (like Messi). Still, Pele is miles ahead in WC scoring than Messi, as you can see in the image I posted.


He had a historically great team around him in Santos. The parity in that league was astonishing. Santos was several tiers above almost every other team.

Santos did have a great team. But it used to suffer without Pele. The only Brazil starter besides Pele was the GK (Gilmar), and the DM (Zito). Barcelona today is much more loaded.
Botafogo, a team Santos used to beat all the time, had Nilton Santos, Didi, Garrincha, Amarildo, Zagallo. Take Pele and Garrincha out, and Botafogo has a better team.
Palmeiras had an all time great team during all the 60's with Djalma Santos, Ademir da Guia, Vava, Dudu, Cesar Maluco, Julinho Botelho.
Plus other teams had guys like Tostao, Rivellino and others.

Second off, over 500+ goals that Pele scored came from unofficial charity and friendly matches. I love how everyone includes that.

Not the images I posted. Only counting official goals there.


About Messi (the things you listed):

Hats off to him. He is a genius, one of the all time best indeed.

[Uncle Drew]

http://www.sportgeschiedenis.nl/userfiles/JOHAN%20CRUIJFF%200008.jpg

[lakers_forever]

The problem with Pele is the same it is with Wilt; it's hard for us to properly evaluate the context of his dominance. He played from 57' to 77'; most of us weren't even born yet when he retired.

This is similar to the Jordan Vs. Wilt argument.
Despite Wilt having better numbers across the board, most people today would consider Jordan the greatest ever.

I read a poll early 2015, with over 10,000 fans voting.
84% of the people claimed Messi is better than both Pele and Maradona.
11% said they were equal.
Only 5% said Messi was not as good.

That's a consensus for you.

If Wilt had the titles to back him up, he would be widely considered GOAT.
Also Pele scored in every single final he ever played in (Brazilian title, Libertadores, Intecontinental Club Cup and World Cup). Wilt wasn't as dominant in the playoffs as he was in the regular season and mainly, most all time great don't see Wilt as GOAT (see next post)

An internet poll? That settles then. :D Beyonce and Justin Bieber would beat Bob Dylan in a poll.

Now let's see what those who have seen them both say (only the very best players and coachers ever (got it from another site):

Cruyff in 2012 - No Messi in his all time XI
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2237293/Johan-Cruyffs-world-XI-No-Lionel-Messi-Cristiano-Ronaldo.html

Di Stefano in 2012 - Pele was better than Messi and Ronaldo
http://www.goal.com/en/news/12/spain/2012/09/10/3366174/pele-was-better-than-messi-cristiano-ronaldo-says-di-stefano

Beckenbauer in 2015 - Pele was better than Messi.
http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2914/champions-league/2015/05/12/11668632/beckenbauer-messi-the-worlds-best-but-pele-the-greatest-ever


Gianni Rivera in 2012 - said Pele was better than Messi.
http://www.goal.com/en/news/12/spain/2012/03/27/2995169/rivera-messi-is-marvellous-but-pele-was-the-best


Alex Ferguson in 2013 - Pele is the best ever.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2441671/Sir-Alex-Ferguson-interview-transcript-Pele-grudges-Civil-War-team-building-life.html

Menotti (Argentina coach in the 1978 and 1982 wc) in 2014 - Pele is the greatest, better than Messi.
http://www.sport-english.com/en/news/barca/menotti-lionel-messi-amazing-but-not-the-greatest-3743287


Platini in 2014 - Pele is the greatest player in history.
http://www.eurosport.com/football/world-cup/2014/brazil-legend-pele-to-leave-hospital-on-tuesday_sto4507610/story.shtml

Also Zico, Romario, Rivelino, Tost

[lakers_forever]

Top football greats ever (most old enough to have seen Pele, Maradona and Messi), let's see who they see as the best ever (I'd take that over some internet poll):

Pele - himself
Maradona - himself
Di Stefano - Pele - said in 2012
Cruyff - Pele
Platini - Pele
Rivera - Pele
Beckenbauer - Pele
Eusebio - Di Stefano (used to be Pele, but he changed his mind years before he died)
Zico - Pele
Zidane - Maradona
Messi - Maradona
Ronaldo - Pele
Romario - Pele
Cristiano Ronaldo - Pele.
Matthaus - Maradona (I think)
Van Basten Pele
Baggio Maradona
Weah Pele
Bobby Charlton - I think he rates Di Stefano as the best. He has said that Messi is in the same class as Pele, Di Stefano and Cruyff..
http://www.laureus.com/news/interview-sir-bobby-charlton


The very best has Pele at 1st and Maradona as second. No one has Messi as the best. Only Charlton claims they are equal.

That's a consensus for you.

It is if almost all of Magic, Bird, Russell, West, Dr.J, Kareem, Moses, Oscar Robertson had the same player as GOAT. Most of them do not see Wilt as the GOAT. That's why Wilt (great as he was) was no Pele.

[ThePhantomCreep]

I love how this graphic totally ignores international play where Maradona merks Messi :yaohappy:

It also ignores how supremely stacked Barca is.

Diego led friggin' Napoli to Serie A titles in the ultra-competitive 80's. That ranks as one of the great achievements in football history, right up there with Diego leading an average Argentinean side to glory in 1986.

[knickballer]

Top football greats ever (most old enough to have seen Pele, Maradona and Messi), let's see who they see as the best ever (I'd take that over some internet poll):

Pele - himself
Maradona - himself
Di Stefano - Pele - said in 2012
Cruyff - Pele
Platini - Pele
Rivera - Pele
Beckenbauer - Pele
Eusebio - Di Stefano (used to be Pele, but he changed his mind years before he died)
Zico - Pele
Zidane - Maradona
Messi - Maradona
Ronaldo - Pele
Romario - Pele
Cristiano Ronaldo - Pele.
Matthaus - Maradona (I think)
Van Basten Pele
Baggio Maradona
Weah Pele
Bobby Charlton - I think he rates Di Stefano as the best. He has said that Messi is in the same class as Pele, Di Stefano and Cruyff..
http://www.laureus.com/news/interview-sir-bobby-charlton


The very best has Pele at 1st and Maradona as second. No one has Messi as the best. Only Charlton claims they are equal.

I did not add guys who died before Messi career like Puskas and Garrincha.


That's a horrible argument. Not only are they old players who played closer in an era to Pele but it's just an opinion. I'm sure you can find hundreds of footballers that will say Messi is the best.

Messi definitely da goat tho

[lakers_forever]

That's a horrible argument. Not only are they old players who played closer in an era to Pele but it's just an opinion. I'm sure you can find hundreds of footballers that will say Messi is the best.

Messi definitely da goat tho

You don't think it tells us something that no top 15 living goat has Messi over Pele?

Jordan, Kareem, Russell, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Lebron, Olajuwon, West, Dr. J, Baylor... If you asked those guys, Jordan would come on top for almost of all them. If all of them don't consider a certain player a GOAT, that does not count for something?

And that was not even my main argument. That was just to counter the poster who thinks an internet poll settles can tell us who was better.

"Messi definitely da goat tho"
Great argument. LOL.

[TheMan]

It also ignores how supremely stacked Barca is.

Diego led friggin' Napoli to Serie A titles in the ultra-competitive 80's. That ranks as one of the great achievements in football history, right up there with Diego leading an average Argentinean side to glory in 1986.
And a shitty call in the 90 Final possibly robbed him of another WC, and again that Argentinien team was not that great outside of Maradona.

Just go ask Argentina fans, they overwhelmingly think Maradona > Messi.

The greatest title in team sports is the World Cup, let's be honest. Argentina had a great shot in last year's Final but Messi went MIA, predictably enough.

[ArbitraryWater]

And a shitty call in the 90 Final possibly robbed him of another WC, and again that Argentinien team was not that great outside of Maradona.

Just go ask Argentina fans, they overwhelmingly think Maradona > Messi.

The greatest title in team sports is the World Cup, let's be honest. Argentina had a great shot in last year's Final but Messi went MIA, predictably enough.

Generally agree here that West-side is a flaming moron, but lets not go there ay ;)

That final itself had another penalty for Germany, that was much more of a pen. but wasnt given.

[West-Side]

Shocker, a bunch of legends who played with Pele say Pele or Maradona are better than Messi. :rolleyes:

Fact is, Messi destroys Diego in virtually every stat against Maradona.
Look closely at the little stat that says "goals outside the box".
That's one of the better statistics that determines a player's scoring ability.
Messi has 147 career goals and Maradona only has 47.

The only reason I'm picking on Maradona is because at least I've seen him play. I never saw Pele play, only footage.

Messi is like Diego on roids to me. He does virtually everything better. The only thing worth discussing between the two is their play-making abilities.

Messi is better at creating for himself and is a better finisher.
Just look at their numbers closely.

The fact that none of those players picked Messi is a ****ing joke; despite FACTS demonstrate that Messi shits on Maradona in virtually everything.

[QUOTE]MATT BARLOW
No. Diego Maradona. Unfortunately there

[ArbitraryWater]

Says the guy who literally contributes nothing to this forum besides his lame ass insults.

So you're saying the year in which Messi scored 73 goals and had 28 assists in 60 matches isn't arguably his best ever?

Keep in mind that he helped his club win UEFA Super Cup, Club World Cup, Copa Del Rey and Spanish Super Cup.

Sure in 2010 he helped his team win the Champions League and La Liga, which many consider his best year. But from an individual perspective, I was more impressed by Messi in 2011/2012.

:biggums: :biggums:

Do you seriously even Football?

[West-Side]

:biggums: :biggums:

Do you seriously even Football?

Moron, he scored 91 goals in 2012.
How the **** is that not his peak year, from an individual perspective?

P.S. - As always, you contribute nothing to the discussion.
You're worthless like the condom that broke when you were conceived.

[GimmeThat]

if you want to take L Messi out of the consideration for the GOAT because his teammates lack of scoring ability/improvements past certain amount of dribbles.

I can tolerate that.


if you put together a CD and process of how Team USA had gone from the bronze medal to where they are now today. The offseason text and communications etc. and hand it to him.

do what you want with the term genius

but I suggest we all be more careful when we choose to use that term.

[alenleomessi]

maradona said himself in 2010 messi is better.. its been 5 years since then.. i dont think there is even a debate anymore.. maradona lacked the consistency and drive.. messi's titles, achievements and stats destroy his

[TheMan]

Only after Messi leads Argentina to a WC victory (like Maradona singlehandedly did in 86 and almost did again in 90) will I entertain that debate.

Until now, I see him as a choker in the WORLD'S BIGGEST STAGE. Which is what the World Cup tourney is...

[ArbitraryWater]

Moron, he scored 91 goals in 2012.
How the **** is that not his peak year, from an individual perspective?

P.S. - As always, you contribute nothing to the discussion.
You're worthless like the condom that broke when you were conceived.

this man really doesn't football :yaohappy:

[lakers_forever]

West side, you don't need to underrate or hate on Pele to make Messi look better. Messi is a genius, just like Pele and Maradona were too. No need for that.

Interesting that you kind of say that Pele's stats can't be compared with Messi, but you compare Messi stats with Maradona. If you used the same criteria, you would not do that since Seria A in the 80's had a much better defensive system (compared to other countries from that time) than current La Liga. Also, european teams were not so loaded back then (you could only have three players from another country, europeans included). Maradona in Napoli only had one all time great player, that was Careca (who can be ranked among the 20 greatest CF's ever). No Ronaldinho, Henry, Xavi, Iniesta, Neymar, Etoo, Ibra, Suarez. Messi at one year had Xavi and Iniesta next to him in the top 3 FIFA Ballon D'or. Not even Pele had the luxury for Santos (that also had better players than Napoli). Who from Pele's Santos besides him can be ranked in all time top 60?

"Considering the World Cup is largely a team accomplishment and Argentina are a high ranked team primarily because of Messi."

Argentina is not Honduras. In a span of 12 years (1978 to 1990]0, they reached 3 wc finals and won 2. Even before that, they were always a footbal giant. Before Pele, Argentina (together with Uruguay) was considered better than Brazil. Messi is a genius, but he has not been close to the same for the NT. Even in Copa Americas, he has failed again and again.

[West-Side]

3 years ago...

[QUOTE]Lionel Messi has won over absolutely everybody in Argentina

[West-Side]

Frank Lampard says Messi is already better than Diego, in 2012. (http://www.foxsports.com.au/football/chelsea-midfielder-believes-lionel-messi-has-surpassed-diego-maradonna-as-one-of-the-all-time-greats/story-e6frf423-1226329791379)

[West-Side]

West side, you don't need to underrate or hate on Pele to make Messi look better. Messi is a genius, just like Pele and Maradona were too. No need for that.

Interesting that you kind of say that Pele's stats can't be compared with Messi, but you compare Messi stats with Maradona. If you used the same criteria, you would not do that since Seria A in the 80's had a much better defensive system (compared to other countries from that time) than current La Liga. Also, european teams were not so loaded back then (you could only have three players from another country, europeans included). Maradona in Napoli only had one all time great player, that was Careca (who can be ranked among the 20 greatest CF's ever). No Ronaldinho, Henry, Xavi, Iniesta, Neymar, Etoo, Ibra, Suarez. Messi at one year had Xavi and Iniesta next to him in the top 3 FIFA Ballon D'or. Not even Pele had the luxury for Santos (that also had better players than Napoli). Who from Pele's Santos besides him can be ranked in all time top 60?

"Considering the World Cup is largely a team accomplishment and Argentina are a high ranked team primarily because of Messi."

Argentina is not Honduras. In a span of 12 years (1978 to 1990]0, they reached 3 wc finals and won 2. Even before that, they were always a footbal giant. Before Pele, Argentina (together with Uruguay) was considered better than Brazil. Messi is a genius, but he has not been close to the same for the NT. Even in Copa Americas, he has failed again and again.

Argentina, in large part, were always viewed as one of the best national clubs because of Diego and later Messi.

Even in 2014, besides Di Maria (who I believe got injured?) and Maschereno, what was so special about Argentina?

Also, Pele (at the time) arguably had the most talent in the WORLD on his team bro. I would say, in their respective time, he had more help than Messi ever had in Barcelona. You can throw names like Xavi, Iniesta, Neymar etc. all you want but let me remind you of something real quick.

[QUOTE]When Pel

[lakers_forever]

Argentina, in large part, were always viewed as one of the best national clubs because of Diego and later Messi.

Even in 2014, besides Di Maria (who I believe got injured?) and Maschereno, what was so special about Argentina?

Also, Pele (at the time) arguably had the most talent in the WORLD on his team bro. I would say, in their respective time, he had more help than Messi ever had in Barcelona. You can throw names like Xavi, Iniesta, Neymar etc. all you want but let me remind you of something real quick.

No, you are absolutely wrong. Argentina has always had some of the very best players in the world. People way before Maradona like: Moreno, Pedernera, Labruna, Di Stefano, Omar Sivori, Kempes and so on.

Di Maria and Mascherano had great World Cups indeed. Messi had a great first round. But he went missing in both the quater final, semi-final and final. Not one goal and not a single assist. Argentina's defense without big names took them to the final (Messi carried them in the first round though), not allowing a single goal in all knockout stage (besides the final of course), proving that sometimes big names is not everything. Brazil had Ronaldinho, Kaka, Adriano, Ronaldo and Juninho and failed miserably. Argentina had Kempes and all the great players from 1978 (all still not 30 years old) plus Maradona in 82 and failed. It happens.

For Brazil? Yes. That's true. Not in Santos. Dorval, Pepe, Coutinho, Mengavlio were all great payers, but were never even regular starters for Brazil (Dorval never even played a wc).

World soccer magazine in 1963 about Mengalvio, Coutinho and Pepe.

"Pepe has never been a class player, packing only a tremendous shot [...] unintelligent and lacking the finer touches of the ball."

"Coutinho was a great disappointment for tubbier and certainly slower despite his youth, all the fire has gone."

"Mengalvio showed promise without ever really being able to take command, and the latter particularly failed to show any understanding of the game."

[TheMan]

I love how West Side doesn't want to talk about Messi's overall lackluster WC tourney career, where men are seperated from the boys and where he doesn't have the luxury of a loaded team and up against the world's elite talent...:oldlol:

[West-Side]

No, you are absolutely wrong. Argentina has always had some of the very best players in the world. People way before Maradona like: Moreno, Pedernera, Labruna, Di Stefano, Omar Sivori, Kempes and so on.

Di Maria and Mascherano had great World Cups indeed. Messi had a great first round. But he went missing in both the quater final, semi-final and final. Not one goal and not a single assist. Argentina's defense without big names took them to the final (Messi carried them in the first round though), not allowing a single goal in all knockout stage (besides the final of course), proving that sometimes big names is not everything. Brazil had Ronaldinho, Kaka, Adriano, Ronaldo and Juninho and failed miserably. Argentina had Kempes and all the great players from 1978 (all still not 30 years old) plus Maradona in 82 and failed. It happens.

For Brazil? Yes. That's true. Not in Santos. Dorval, Pepe, Coutinho, Mengavlio were all great payers, but were never even regular starters for Brazil (Dorval never even played a wc).

World soccer magazine in 1963 about Mengalvio, Coutinho and Pepe.

"Pepe has never been a class player, packing only a tremendous shot [...] unintelligent and lacking the finer touches of the ball."

"Coutinho was a great disappointment for tubbier and certainly slower despite his youth, all the fire has gone."

"Mengalvio showed promise without ever really being able to take command, and the latter particularly failed to show any understanding of the game."

No, I'm not wrong.
I meant that during Diego and Messi era, Argentina did not have great national teams. You act as if Di Maria and Maschareno should be enough to win the World Cup. Both players great yes.

But other teams like Brazil and Germany, for instance, were far deeper.
It was an accomplishment in it self that Argentina made it to the finals.
You also have to factor in how many attention Messi receives during games, leaving the rest of his teammates with room to operate.

On a World stage, I don't deny that Diego has done more than Messi.
Production wise they are very close but Messi does not have that World Cup (yet). On the club stage, Messi absolutely annihilates Diego though. It's not really close.

Pele is a different breed. It's really hard for me to compare Pele and Messi as I haven't seen him play besides random videos. He looks like an incredible finisher. But again, we must also consider the evolution of the sport. Did Pele really play against the best (in Brazil) or with the best. His team was absolutely loaded and I can find you countless articles stating that Santos monopolized the entire league. They had far and away the most talent out of all the teams. He plays in that league his entire career.

The next question I want to ask you is the talent he played against.
Considering Brazil's national team was in large part Santos.

Messi is also only 27 years of age; it's just a testament to his greatness that so many coaches, players and experts consider him ALREADY better than both Pele and Diego. I've already sampled you a few of those quotes. There's many many more.

[West-Side]

I love how West Side doesn't want to talk about Messi's overall lackluster WC tourney career, where men are seperated from the boys and where he doesn't have the luxury of a loaded team and up against the world's elite talent...:oldlol:

http://www.onefootball.com/magazine/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/g14-messi_maradona_arg-700x980.jpg

Messi scored 22 goals (.33) in comparison to Diego's 17 goals (.35).
He has 5 World Cup goals in 14 games (.36) and Diego has 8 World Cup goals in 21 games (.38).

You act like Diego kills him on the World Cup stage.
I guess you would say that, seeing as you're so desperate to find the slightest thing Diego did better than Messi.

http://www.onefootball.com/magazine/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/g14-messi_maradona_europe-700x737.jpg

Yet on the club stage; Messi has a .85 goal margin to Diego's .47. (nearly doubles his production).

When Diego played for Barca from 82-84, he scored 38 goals in 58 matches.
That's a .66 goal per match ratio.

[lakers_forever]

No, I'm not wrong.
I meant that during Diego and Messi era, Argentina did not have great national teams. You act as if Di Maria and Maschareno should be enough to win the World Cup. Both players great yes.

But other teams like Brazil and Germany, for instance, were far deeper.
It was an accomplishment in it self that Argentina made it to the finals.
You also have to factor in how many attention Messi receives during games, leaving the rest of his teammates with room to operate.

On a World stage, I don't deny that Diego has done more than Messi.
Production wise they are very close but Messi does not have that World Cup (yet). On the club stage, Messi absolutely annihilates Diego though. It's not really close.

Pele is a different breed. It's really hard for me to compare Pele and Messi as I haven't seen him play besides random videos. He looks like an incredible finisher. But again, we must also consider the evolution of the sport. Did Pele really play against the best (in Brazil) or with the best. His team was absolutely loaded and I can find you countless articles stating that Santos monopolized the entire league. They had far and away the most talent out of all the teams. He plays in that league his entire career.

The next question I want to ask you is the talent he played against.
Considering Brazil's national team was in large part Santos.

Messi is also only 27 years of age; it's just a testament to his greatness that so many coaches, players and experts consider him ALREADY better than both Pele and Diego. I've already sampled you a few of those quotes. There's many many more.

I just showed that Botafogo had more starters for Brazil than Santos. For instance, in 1958, the only Santos starter was Pele. Yes, Santos had 4 to 5 squad players in 1962 and 1970. But most big teams had 2 or 3 players. If you think about the very best players from 58 to 70, like Gerson (S

[lakers_forever]

You act like Diego kills him on the World Cup stage.
I guess you would say that, seeing as you're so desperate to find the slightest thing Diego did better than Messi.
.

He doesn't? The slightest? You act like Maradona was just some guy. He is a football God.

[TheMan]

Stats this, stats that...all I know is that I saw Diego put Argentina on his back and took them to the promised land vs a better German side in 86 and nearly did the same in 90.

I haven't seen that from Messi. Don't get me wrong, Messi is one of the GOATs but what Diego did in 86 was to me the GOAT example of willing his nation to it's greatest glory...that's why he is a god in Argentina while Messi is nowhere near that.

[West-Side]

[QUOTE=lakers_forever]I just showed that Botafogo had more starters for Brazil than Santos. For instance, in 1958, the only Santos starter was Pele. Yes, Santos had 4 to 5 squad players in 1962 and 1970. But most big teams had 2 or 3 players. If you think about the very best players from 58 to 70, like Gerson (S

[West-Side]

Stats this, stats that...all I know is that I saw Diego put Argentina on his back and took them to the promised land vs a better German side in 86 and nearly did the same in 90.

I haven't seen that from Messi. Don't get me wrong, Messi is one of the GOATs but what Diego did in 86 was to me the GOAT example of willing his nation to it's greatest glory...that's why he is a god in Argentina while Messi is nowhere near that.

Sigh, the only person who thinks that is you and Diego, himself.
Most people in Argentina and around the world consider Messi a god.

The fact that you're clinging on to the ONLY thing (literally) that Diego did that Messi hasn't, is win the World Cup.

I can compile a list much larger consisting of things Messi has done that Diego never has.

[West-Side]

He doesn't? The slightest? You act like Maradona was just some guy. He is a football God.

He is (to me) the 3rd greatest football player of all-time.
Messi is just on a different level; both from a statistical point of view and their abilities on the football field.

https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/messi-goal.gif?w=620&h=380&crop=1

http://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/2014-05/enhanced/webdr06/22/14/anigif_enhanced-3623-1400782307-21.gif

[ArbitraryWater]

He is (to me) the 3rd greatest football player of all-time.
Messi is just on a different level; both from a statistical point of view and their abilities on the football field.

https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2015/06/messi-goal.gif?w=620&h=380&crop=1

http://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/2014-05/enhanced/webdr06/22/14/anigif_enhanced-3623-1400782307-21.gif

:roll:

So Messi isn't just the GOAT, but he's on ANOTHER TIER/LEVEL, from ANYONE? :biggums:

[TheMan]

Sigh, the only person who thinks that is you and Diego, himself.
Most people in Argentina and around the world consider Messi a god.

The fact that you're clinging on to the ONLY thing (literally) that Diego did that Messi hasn't, is win the World Cup.

I can compile a list much larger consisting of things Messi has done that Diego never has.
LOLZ, my best friend is from Mar de Plata, Arg. I know his family and other Argentinos through him, Maradona is THE futbol god over there. Many are so passionate about El Pelusa that if you insult him, you'll likely get punched in the mouth...they don't feel quite the same about Messi.

Also living in soccer crazy Mexico, I get tons of futbol coverage from Argentina on my cable package back home...Maradona is a god down there

[9erempiree]

Cristiano with the hat trick while this thread is going.

:lol

[GimmeThat]

yes, Messi hasn't willed his national team to 'the greatest glory' for his country.

if Maradona is your God, you say, why can't Messi extend all of himself to his countrymen

I say, why hasn't you sacrificed yourself knowing that Messi is what is left of the team


you wanted Messi to tell you to do so, I can only suspect you hadn't treated Messi as what he is.

if Maradona is your God.

[ThePhantomCreep]

I like how Messi's "achievements" for the NT are all runner-up finishes :lol

Argentina isn't as super-stacked as Barca, apparently.

[West-Side]

LOLZ, my best friend is from Mar de Plata, Arg. I know his family and other Argentinos through him, Maradona is THE futbol god over there. Many are so passionate about El Pelusa that if you insult him, you'll likely get punched in the mouth...they don't feel quite the same about Messi.

Also living in soccer crazy Mexico, I get tons of futbol coverage from Argentina on my cable package back home...Maradona is a god down there


Lionel Messi lost another final. Lionel Messi lost another final in an Argentine jersey to be precise; enough fodder for his detractors to raise the usual rhetorical question that follows every time Argentina fails to win a major trophy: How can Lionel Messi be GOAT unless he takes the Albiceleste to a major title? (Messi's Argentina Gets Lukewarm Reception)
Does a player need to win big tournaments for their National side to be considered great?

Untrue. Zico, Johan Cruyff and George Best never won a World Cup or their Continental Championship, yet their positions as greats of the game is undisputed. In fact for a few Dutch and Manchester United fans that I know, Cruyff and Best remain the greatest footballers to have ever walked the planet respectively. (Messi Downfall Plotted by Argentine Sampaoli)
But greats is not the question, greatest is; so let's move on.
Do only World Cups and Continental Championships qualify as big tournaments?

Not quite. (Messi's Family Heckled During Copa America Final)
One of the more successful coaches in world football today, Jose Mourinho, famously said four years ago that the UEFA Champions League is 'more important' than the FIFA World Cup; Sir Alex Fergusson and Wesley Sneijder would later endorse Mourinho's view. (Messi Overtaking Maradona, Says Paolo Maldini)

In fact there is a growing belief amongst fans and football pundits across the globe that club football is the pinnacle of the game because of the higher quality of teams that can be bought and built, rather than assembled from limited pools as in the international arena.
Much like the USA Olympic team of 1992, featuring Michael Jordon and Larry Bird, and aptly title the 'Dream Team'; most top European clubs are exactly that: Dream Teams. Logically, a competition between teams made up of the best talents from across the globe trumps a tournament featuring a group of disjointed player, unaccustomed to playing alongside each other.
Despite, all the recent arguments in favour of Champions League, one can't also argue with the relevance and the reverence that a FIFA World Cup deserves. It is 'The' World Cup after all that comes once every four years. So while winning a World Cup may not be the equivalent of winning a Champions League; winning four Champions League may upstage 1 World Cup.

(Messi: Four Champions Leagues, 0 World Cup; Maradona: One World Cup, Zero Champions League/European Cup)

Messi or Maradona
Most arguments in favour of Diego Maradona as the greatest player ever almost always boil down to the 1986 FIFA World Cup (though one dare not discount his contribution for Napoli, helping the South Italian club win two Serie-A titles during the days when North Italian outfits like AC Milan and Juventus dominated.)

But a major part of El Diego's legend of 86 was also because of his scintillating performance in two games: quarter-final against England and the semi-final vs Belgium. Both games saw him score a total of four goals, three of which were breathtaking and the fourth controversial (Hand of God). The fact that one of his stand out performance came against England - a country known of its aggressive and sometimes hysterical media- only magnified the narrative.

Interestingly, the all important finals, was Maradona's quietest game. Argentina's talismanic captain was on occasions schooled by Lothar Matthaus; though he did provide the through ball that set up Burruchaga for the winner.

Contrary to popular perception, Maradona wasn't the only reason Argentina lifted Mexico 86. Coach Carlos Bilardo played a stellar role in helping the Albiceleste lift their second FIFA World Cup; if Maradona was the star on the pitch, Bilardo was the hero off it.

He visited his overseas stars such as Jorge Valdano at Real Madrid and Jorge Burruchaga at Nantes months ahead of the tournament. He would play them videos and borrow their club team-mates to rehearse set-pieces. Shifting from Argentina's football culture he evolved a revolutionary 3-5-2 formation, with a sweeper in front of two central defenders and five in the midfield. His goal was to allow Maradona all the freedom by adopting the European way of dominating the centre of the field.
Lionel Messi Copa America 2nd
Lionel Messi walks off the podium after receiving the second-place medal. Argentina lost the Copa America final to Chile.

True, unlike Maradona, Messi hasn't been able to scale the pinnacle of international football; but he hasn't been found wanting in the blue and white stripes either. His performances in both the 2010 and 2014 Football World Cup were noteworthy (He won the golden boot at FIFA World Cup 2014 despite losing the finals, courtesy three player of the match awards in the group stages).

Similarly, at the club level, Maradona's exploits with Napoli is pale in comparison to what Messi's achieved at Barcelona; admittedly due to a star supporting cast in Xavi and Iniesta.
And quite frankly with Rojo, Biglia, Banega, Pastore, Lavezzi, Higuain et al. by his side, doubt Messi, or any other great would ever be able to get his hands on any silverware of note.

My limited point being, that in football, like in any other team sport, an individual is nothing without a group of competent teammates. A rule that applies to both Maradona and Messi.

Even the great Zinedine Zidane- already a World Cup and Euro winner-had to switch to Real Madrid and play alongside the Galacticos to get his hands on the Champions League Trophy.


Whom do the numbers favour?
Stats - the gold standard in deciding players vs player battles are heavily tilted in favour of Messi: La Pulga has to his credit 46 international goals compared to La Diego's 34. At club level Messi has amassed 412 goals; Maradona 312.

Messi has been named World Footballer of the year four times; Maradona didn't win it even once, mainly because the award was introduced in 1991, by which time the Argentinian's powers were on the wain.

Beyond numbers
Interestingly, there are more similarities than differences between Messi and Maradona. Same nationality, height, bursts of speed, natural left-footers and penchant for scoring stunning individual goals; hell, both even have their own versions of 'hand of god' goals.

But what sets Messi apart from Maradona is the fact that he is uncorrupted by the current state of professional football: Never the one to look for fouls , instead choosing to stay on his legs unless a really nasty tackle brings him down; a rarity in this generation of 'handle with care' footballers, where theatrics is the name of the game.

Add to that his child like exuberance on the football pitch, displayed in his keenness to play every minute of every game; and the magnanimity to share goals and stage, both on and off the pitch, with his teammates.

Controversies
The only blemish on Messi's otherwise spotless career is the recent tax fraud controversy, a case he's still fighting in court.
Hand of god, failing a drug test during a World Cup, Cocaine addiction: Maradona's list of misdemeanors is endless.


Monologue
The football romantic in me is, and always remain a Maradona fan: He was the reason one played football as a kid in the maidans of Kolkata, wearing the number 10 jersey. But the part of my brain which is heavily influenced by my profession as a sports journalist concedes: Lionel Messi is a freak; a player unlike any other the sport has ever seen. The greatest!

Pretty good read.

[West-Side]

:roll:

So Messi isn't just the GOAT, but he's on ANOTHER TIER/LEVEL, from ANYONE? :biggums:

No, Messi isn't on another level but I think he's clearly the better football player. Both are on the tier of greatness, alongside Pele.

Maybe Ronaldo can achieve that level someday, depending on how long his prime lasts.