Most dominate-make team better

[colts19]

I would like to see everyone's top 5 in 2 categories. The 5 most dominate and the 5 who make their teammates better.

Mine would be.
Most dominate.

Wilt
Shaq
MJ
Lebron
Oscar or Dr. J.

Make teammates better.
Magic
Bird
KAJ
Russell
Nash

[Fallen Angel]

Most Dominant:

1. Shaquille O'Neal
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Moses Malone
5. Larry Bird

Make Teammates Better:

1. Magic Johnson
2. John Stockton
3. Steve Nash
4. Kevin Garnett
5. Larry Bird

[jlip]

Most dominant.
Wilt
Shaq
MJ
Lebron
Kareem or Moses

Make teammates better.
Magic
Bird
Jason Kidd
Russell
Nash

...

[3ball]

Unbelievable... Who did Magic make better?... Kareem?... #1 overall pick Worthy?... Who did Bird make better?... Robert Parish, 1979 FMVP Dennis Johnson?

Otoh, MJ started with a bad team and built them into champions gradually.. He wasn't paired with Kareem as a rookie, or gifted HOF's Robert Parish and Dennis Johnson in his 2nd season.

MJ had to WAIT for his team to become as good as him - therefore he actually had to take part in making them better - whereas Magic and Bird were handed great teammates.

[90sgoat]

In terms of making bad teams into winners, Jason Kidd has a real shot at being the best.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Unbelievable... Who did Magic make better?... Kareem?... #1 overall pick Worthy?... Who did Bird make better?... Robert Parish, 1979 FMVP Dennis Johnson?

Otoh, MJ started with a bad team and built them into champions gradually.. He wasn't paired with Kareem as a rookie, or gifted HOF's Robert Parish and Dennis Johnson in his 2nd season.

MJ had to WAIT for his team to become as good as him - therefore he actually had to take part in making them better - whereas Magic and Bird were handed great teammates.

Yea, Magic made no one better with his - most likely the greatest ever - passing game, with his tremendous control of the tempo and pace, with his great offensive IQ... :rolleyes:
You can say he was the best at making everyone better, even.



Who did Bird make better?... Robert Parish, 1979 FMVP Dennis Johnson?

Otoh, MJ started with a bad team and built them into champions gradually.. He wasn't paired with Kareem as a rookie, or gifted HOF's Robert Parish and Dennis Johnson in his 2nd season.

Yes and yes.

Parish joined the Celtics at 26 years old, never viewed as much, never an all-star, no mvp votes, no all-nba teams, little team success... Then all of a sudden he's as high as top5 in mvp voting, makes all-star games, 2nd all-nba, winning rings...
From GS to Boston, he even went from averaging 17.0 PPG on 50.% FG with 1.7 APG and 3.1 TO's in 29.4 MPG, to 18.9 on 54.5% with 1.8 APG and 2.3 TO's in 28.0 MPG, immediately.

You do know that DJ was out of shape, almost in his 30's and viewed as a "cancer" just before he joined the Celtics? Very few teams wanted him... Bird gave the ok to the front-office and Dennis career was suddenly revived in Boston, with many of the same playing traits but on a new role, even new playing style and athleticism.

You talk about the HoF but if Parish continued his career with the Warriors he wouldn't have been a HoF'er by now. And DJ most likely wouldn't have been selected if he didn't get to join Boston (even with the ring and FMVP in Seattle); took him long as it was.

Oh, and you even got (post-injury) McHale going from 22.6 PPG on 60.4% FG with 2.7 APG and 2.2 TO's in 1988, to 22.5 on 54.6% with 2.2 APG and 2.5 TO's in 1989... Playing with Bird (at the end of his prime) first then without him and Reggie Lewis "in his place".

Just the numbers there, because I can also say they were considerable less impactful when he was out... Team was shitty before he got there, a powerhouse and dynasty in his best years, considerably worse when he was out, even better again when he returned as a shell, and shitty for years after he retired.

[ClipperRevival]

CP3 should get mention. Statistically, he's the most efficient PG ever. He dominates the ball and that might affect the ceiling of his teams but he maximizes each possession about as good as anyone has ever done it. His assist/to ratio is off the charts and he creates easy looks for his teammates. And when there is no shot, he has that rare ability to get off a good shot almost every time. I truly believe he had the type of impact where if you put him on any bad team in history, he would make them at least a .500 team. Again, his ball dominant style might not maximize a teams efficiency but he is great enough to help you win.

If you break down his game (except choking), he really had no weakness. People underrate just how great he is. The guy is 6'0" and one of the best players of his era. He just impacts your team in so many ways on both ends. At his height, I think he's the best defender ever. The guy can be a beast when he decides to lock people down.

[Young X]

CP3 should get mention. Statistically, he's the most efficient PG ever. He dominates the ball and that might affect the ceiling of his teams but he maximizes each possession about as good as anyone has ever done it. His assist/to ratio is off the charts and he creates easy looks for his teammates. And when there is no shot, he has that rare ability to get off a good shot almost every time. I truly believe he had the type of impact where if you put him on any bad team in history, he would make them at least a .500 team. Again, his ball dominant style might not maximize a teams efficiency but he is great enough to help you win.

If you break down his game (except choking), he really had no weakness. People underrate just how great he is. The guy is 6'0" and one of the best players of his era. He just impacts your team in so many ways on both ends. At his height, I think he's the best defender ever. The guy can be a beast when he decides to lock people down.Not to mention he turned around 2 of the worst franchises in league history during his tenures with them.

If you look at the both Hornets' and Clippers' top 5 seasons, 7/10 of them were led by CP3.

Also his offensive net rating last season was the highest ever recorded. The Clippers were better by 20 pts on offense with him on the floor. They played like the worst offesne in the league when he sat and the GOAT offense when he played.

David West's only 2 all star seasons were with CP
Tyson Chandler revitalized his career playing with CP
Peja's best shooting season was with CP
Redick's best shooting season was with CP
DJ had the 2nd highest FG% ever mainly because of all the easy buckets CP got him.

[ClipperRevival]

Not to mention he turned around 2 of the worst franchises in league history during his tenures with them.

If you look at the both Hornets' and Clippers' top 5 seasons, 7/10 of them were led by CP3.

Also his offensive net rating last season was the highest ever recorded. The Clippers were better by 20 pts on offense with him on the floor. They played like the worst offesne in the league when he sat and the GOAT offense when he played.

David West's only 2 all star seasons were with CP
Tyson Chandler revitalized his career playing with CP
Peja's best shooting season was with CP
Redick's best shooting season was with CP
DJ had the 2nd highest FG% ever mainly because of all the easy buckets CP got him.

To be fair, Blake played amazing when CP3 was out for a while a couple of years ago. But having watched about 85% of all Clipper games since he's been here, I didn't realize the guy was this great. He plays the PG position almost perfectly, like a robot. The guy never turns the ball over.

At his peak, he was one of those truly rare talents that had the ability to get to anywhere on the court with his dribble. How many guys in the history of the game was good enough to do that?

I hope he gets a ring. A guy this great deserves one. But he's gotta stop choking.

[Young X]

To be fair, Blake played amazing when CP3 was out for a while a couple of years ago. But having watched about 85% of all Clipper games since he's been here, I didn't realize the guy was this great. He plays the PG position almost perfectly, like a robot. The guy never turns the ball over.

At his peak, he was one of those truly rare talents that had the ability to get to anywhere on the court with his dribble. How many guys in the history of the game was good enough to do that?

I hope he gets a ring. A guy this great deserves one. But he's gotta stop choking.I hope he gets a ring too but unless the Clippers improve their mediocre defense and terrible bench (which I think may have happened with their additions) he's gonna keep "choking" year after year.

I think he's an all time great and possibly a top 5 PG ever but I'm in the minority unless he wins a ring (which doesn't make sense since Stockton never won a ring or MVP either but whatever).

[LoneyROY7]

Unbelievable... Who did Magic make better?... Kareem?... #1 overall pick Worthy?... Who did Bird make better?... Robert Parish, 1979 FMVP Dennis Johnson?

Otoh, MJ started with a bad team and built them into champions gradually.. He wasn't paired with Kareem as a rookie, or gifted HOF's Robert Parish and Dennis Johnson in his 2nd season.

MJ had to WAIT for his team to become as good as him - therefore he actually had to take part in making them better - whereas Magic and Bird were handed great teammates.

So MJ's teammates ultimately were as good as him and he had a stacked roster? Gotcha.

[ClipperRevival]

I hope he gets a ring too but unless the Clippers improve their mediocre defense and terrible bench (which I think may have happened with their additions) he's gonna keep "choking" year after year.

I think he's an all time great and possibly a top 5 PG ever but I'm in the minority unless he wins a ring (which doesn't make sense since Stockton never won a ring or MVP either but whatever).

CP3 has to carry some of the blame for his playoff failures. His last 50 seconds against OKC in game 5 was one of the worst choke jobs ever. And as an all time great, you can't give up a 20 point 3rd quarter lead, at home, in a close out game against Houston.

But like you said, we added the right pieces. We needed wing players more than anything else and we added Stephenson, Pierce and Wes to go along with Smith. On paper, I think we can be as good as anyone if the added pieces play up to potential. But that's a big if.

[Mr. Jabbar]

http://thesportshernia.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451b84f69e201157128bcad970b-450wi

[ShawkFactory]

Unbelievable... Who did Magic make better?... Kareem?... #1 overall pick Worthy?... Who did Bird make better?... Robert Parish, 1979 FMVP Dennis Johnson?

Otoh, MJ started with a bad team and built them into champions gradually.. He wasn't paired with Kareem as a rookie, or gifted HOF's Robert Parish and Dennis Johnson in his 2nd season.

MJ had to WAIT for his team to become as good as him - therefore he actually had to take part in making them better - whereas Magic and Bird were handed great teammates.
Just because he had to wait doesn't mean he wasn't still handed great teammates :lol

[TheMarkMadsen]

i'm gonna say Kobe deserves to be top 5 makes team better

[FKAri]

Most dominate.

[chocolatethunder]

I can't believe that there are still morons here who don't know the difference between dominate and dominant. Pathetic.

[toxicxr6]

i'm gonna say Kobe deserves to be top 5 makes team better

Holy crap

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[Duffy Pratt]

Unbelievable... Who did Magic make better?... Kareem?... #1 overall pick Worthy?... Who did Bird make better?... Robert Parish, 1979 FMVP Dennis Johnson?

Otoh, MJ started with a bad team and built them into champions gradually.. He wasn't paired with Kareem as a rookie, or gifted HOF's Robert Parish and Dennis Johnson in his 2nd season.

MJ had to WAIT for his team to become as good as him - therefore he actually had to take part in making them better - whereas Magic and Bird were handed great teammates.

Bird came to a Celtics team that had won 29 games. His first year, without DJ or Mchale, or Parrish, he took them to 61 wins and the Conference finals.

Magic took a decent, but struggling, Laker team to the championship as a rookie. From 45 wins to 62. Both Kareem and Jamaal Wilkes had increased scoring and shooting percentages with Magics arrival.

Jordan took a terrible Bulls team, 27 wins, and made them mediocre, at 38 wins. Then, after a few mediocre years, with a record that gets as good as 40-42, Pippin and Grant arrive and the team's record goes to 50 wins. But that's because Jordan made them better. Then, after their third championship, a year when the team won 57 games, Jordan retires. The next year, without Jordan, the team's record plummets to 55 wins. The only plausible explanation is that Jordan did such a great job of making his team better that his impact had an effect that lasted for a full year without him.

[colts19]

Unbelievable... Who did Magic make better?... Kareem?... #1 overall pick Worthy?... Who did Bird make better?... Robert Parish, 1979 FMVP Dennis Johnson?

Otoh, MJ started with a bad team and built them into champions gradually.. He wasn't paired with Kareem as a rookie, or gifted HOF's Robert Parish and Dennis Johnson in his 2nd season.

MJ had to WAIT for his team to become as good as him - therefore he actually had to take part in making them better - whereas Magic and Bird were handed great teammates.

It's fine if you disagree with my list, or anybody else's. So make your own list. I think it would be hard to make a top 5 list of players who made their team better that didn't include Magic and Bird.

[LAZERUSS]

I would like to see everyone's top 5 in 2 categories. The 5 most dominate and the 5 who make their teammates better.

Mine would be.
Most dominate.

Wilt
Shaq
MJ
Lebron
Oscar or Dr. J.

Make teammates better.
Magic
Bird
KAJ
Russell
Nash

I would swap Lebron with KAJ.

[SHAQisGOAT]

To answer the OP...

Most dominant:

Shaq
MJ
Kareem
Wilt
LeBron

Make teammates better:

Bird
Magic
Russell
Walton
Nash/Duncan

[3ball]

To answer the OP...

Most dominant:

Shaq
MJ
Kareem
Wilt
LeBron

Make teammates better:

Bird
Magic
Russell
Walton
Nash/Duncan

Seriously, I want to know who Magic made better to the extent MJ made Pippen better.

Don't get me wrong - I think Magic should be the captain of the make-guys-better all-time team... But MJ should be on that team too, along with Magic and Bird... He improved Pippen more than Magic or Bird improved ANY player - that's a stone cold fact.

Not to mention all the guys we would never have even heard of without MJ - guys like Horace, Paxson and Kerr had meaningful careers that we remember, due to being on MJ's team.. Bird and Magic never had so many guys that we'd never have heard of without them - we still would've heard of Parish, DJ, Walton, etc regardless of what team they landed on.... Ditto on Worthy, Byron Scott, Michael Cooper, etc...

MJ had far worse supporting casts than Magic and Bird - this is a fact - it's not even CLOSE.
.

[Pointguard]

Seriously, I want to know who Magic made better to the extent MJ made Pippen better.

Don't get me wrong - I think Magic should be the captain of the make-guys-better all-time team... But MJ should be on that team too, along with Magic and Bird... He improved Pippen more than Magic or Bird improved ANY player - that's a stone cold fact.

Not to mention all the guys we would never have HEARD OF without MJ - guys like Horace, Paxson and Kerr had meaningful careers that we remember, do to MJ.. Bird and Magic never had so many guys that we'd never have heard of without them - we still would've heard of Parish, DJ, Walton, etc regardless of what team they landed on.... Ditto on Worthy, Byron Scott, Michael Cooper, etc

MJ had FAR worse supporting casts than Magic and Bird - this is a fact - it's not even CLOSE.
.
Most players on MJ's team said they couldn't turn to Jordan for anything and instead went to Pippen. If players don't trust him, he can't really make them better. If a player is distant, like Kobe, players don't trust them and build a resentment on them. He punched Kerr in the face and was a bully in general. I could see the argument for Pippen. Jordan is not in every conversation as the best.

Bird can claim Parrish, Maxwell and Ainge pretty easily. Their confidence went sky high with Bird and made an instant impact on the whole team. They thought they were contenders upon his arrival when they sucked the year before. The Bulls don't acquire that mentality until a while after Pippen's arrival.

Magic can claim Kareem's different attitude, Jamal Wilkes and Norm Nixon had their best years with Magic and were much more efficient. Magic should get credit for changing the whole culture of LA. It was an under achieving team before Magic came and instantly had a contender mentality... stayed that way Magic's whole tenure and died the day he left. Kurt Rambis has his best years before his prime because of Magic. Worthy's shooting percentage plummeted 50% points and didn't look like he played to win. Same with Byron Scott. Magic also has claim to running the best offense ever. He played the best rewarding a player game for his hustle in the history of the league.

Jordan was the most dominant to me. Sobeit, Shaq played a more dominant way.

[ClipperRevival]

Magic is one of the greatest winners EVER. His impact can't be measured simply with numbers. He brought so many intangibles to the table. His charisma and outgoing personality brought his teams together and made them feel good. He extended KAJs career. Lakers were't doing squat with a pretty talented team before Magic got there.

And let's not forget his on court impact. He played a style that made everyone want to play with him. An up tempo, fast break style where the wings were allowed to run all day and would get great passes time and time again. When you play with a superstar like that, you run the floor a little harder. You just play harder.

Magic was the leader of Showtime even though he might not have always been their best player. He was the heart and soul of that team and the guy that brought everything together and made it work. "Winner". That's what Magic was.

[3ball]

Jordan was the most dominant to me.


Again, Bird and Magic never made anyone better anywhere NEAR the extent that MJ made Pippen better.





Shaq played a more dominant way



The stats show MJ was clearly more dominant (rebounds/assists cancel out, along with steals/blocks and FG/FT%:


Comparing MJ's Peak to Shaq's Peak (91-93' vs. 00'-02')


REGULAR SEASON

MJ:... 31.4 PPG.. 58.2% ts.. 122 ORtg.. 0.288 WS/48.. 3 All-Defense 1st Team, 2 MVP
Shaq: 28.6 ppg.. 58.0% ts.. 115 ORtg.. 0.264 WS/48.. 2 All-Defense 2nd Team.. 1 MVP


PLAYOFFS

MJ:... 33.7 ppg.. 57.2% ts.. 120 ORtg.. 0.267 WS/48
Shaq: 29.9 ppg.. 56.2% ts.. 113 ORtg.. 0.238 WS/48


FINALS

MJ:... 36.3 ppg.. 52.6% fg.. 84.3% ft.. played #5, #3, #9 defenses.. beat Magic-Drexler-Barkley
Shaq: 35.9 ppg.. 59.5% fg.. 50.6% ft.. played #13, #5, #1 defenses.. beat Miller-Iverson-Kidd

[DCL]

the most domino players are very domination. there skills simply dominant everybody.

[NZStreetBaller]

Omg this has seriously got to go to steve nash during the suns. He made amare an all star.

[Nuff Said]

Again, Bird and Magic never made anyone better anywhere NEAR the extent that MJ made Pippen better.




The stats show MJ was clearly more dominant (rebounds/assists cancel out, along with steals/blocks and FG/FT%:


Comparing MJ's Peak to Shaq's Peak (91-93' vs. 00'-02')


REGULAR SEASON

MJ:... 31.4 PPG.. 58.2% ts.. 122 ORtg.. 0.288 WS/48.. 3 All-Defense 1st Team, 2 MVP
Shaq: 28.6 ppg.. 58.0% ts.. 115 ORtg.. 0.264 WS/48.. 2 All-Defense 2nd Team.. 1 MVP


PLAYOFFS

MJ:... 33.7 ppg.. 57.2% ts.. 120 ORtg.. 0.267 WS/48
Shaq: 29.9 ppg.. 56.2% ts.. 113 ORtg.. 0.238 WS/48


FINALS

MJ:... 36.3 ppg.. 52.6% fg.. 84.3% ft.. played #5, #3, #9 defenses.. beat Magic-Drexler-Barkley
Shaq: 35.9 ppg.. 59.5% fg.. 50.6% ft.. played #13, #5, #1 defenses.. beat Miller-Iverson-Kidd

You can't say Jordan made pippen better because there's nothing to compare it to. We don't know if pippen would've progressed the same if he never played with Jordan. Kobe had the same type of progression and is even better than pippen. Would you say Shaq is the goat made teammates better player? Wade had his best finals with shaq. I'm just saying, there's no way you can definitively say Jordan is responsible for pippen' growth because we just don't know.

[Pointguard]

Again, Bird and Magic never made anyone better anywhere NEAR the extent that MJ made Pippen better.
Pippen was one of the few players ever to lead his team in practically every major category beyond the first round. And was was a shot away from beating the EC champs.

Pippen who took over a team built around Jordan and lost only two games more than when Jordan ran the team? That Pippen?

Th

[colts19]

I can't believe that there are still morons here who don't know the difference between dominate and dominant. Pathetic.
I know the difference I just don't spell worth a crap. I know still Pathetic.

[kshutts1]

I saw no mention of positions...

Dominant:
Shaq
Wilt
Jordan
Kareem
Mikan

Better:
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Russell
Nash

Some tough omissions, most notably Kidd, Moses, Stockton, West, Baylor, Lebron, Barkley, KG, Pippen, Oscar, AI

[kshutts1]

I know the difference I just don't spell worth a crap. I know still Pathetic.
Have you considered slowing down and sounding them out? Not with every word, that would take too long. But dominate and dominant end very differently in terms of how they sound. Just a suggestion to help you along.

[colts19]

Have you considered slowing down and sounding them out? Not with every word, that would take too long. But dominate and dominant end very differently in terms of how they sound. Just a suggestion to help you along.
Thanks for the advice. It's really a matter of I type faster than I think and I don't read over what I write. I just don't find it as being something I really care about. I guess that's why i screw words up every once in a while.

[bizil]

Most dominant:

Shaq
Wilt
MJ
Kareem
Lebron

Makes teammates better the best (best floor generals of all time)

Magic
Big O
Nash
Kidd
Stockton

Big men who made their teammates better the best:

Duncan
Russell
Walton
KG


Special category for THE PLAYER who wasn't really score first or pass first. But was great at both AND ALWAYS seemed to make the proper play:

Bird

[TheMarkMadsen]

Holy crap

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

how does somebody who has been a integral part of 5 championships while playing at an elite level not make his team better

[kshutts1]

Bizil, good call on Walton. I forgot about him. Why do you list Oscar in the "make others better" category, but Lebron in the dominant? What is the difference with the two? I think both are dominant first, make others better second.

[bizil]

Bizil, good call on Walton. I forgot about him. Why do you list Oscar in the "make others better" category, but Lebron in the dominant? What is the difference with the two? I think both are dominant first, make others better second.

Because for the make others better category, I wanted PG's who were the best floor generals. For my list, I designed it that way. But to be frank, many of these legends are interchangeable on these lists.

Oscar could have EASILY been on my most dominant list. But for my most dominant list, I had to have Lebron. Because he's the most physically gifted perimeter player of all time in my opinion. In terms of speed, hops, and strength. And he's also arguably the most versatile player of all time as well.

And of course Big O and Lebron were both dominant players. BUT they did it from a pass first perspective. They are LITERALLY the only two guys who can average 30 points a night from a pass first perspective. But they are SO VERSATILE that they dominate IN THE FLOW of a game.

[TheMarkMadsen]

how many players have made 3 straight finals & won 2 rings while leading their team in scoring and assist while playing in a brutal conference where for 2 out of the 3 years each team in the playoffs won 50+ games.. how many players have scored 600+ points in 3 consecutive playoffs..

that's dominance..

[Pointguard]

Most dominant:

Shaq
Wilt
MJ
Kareem
Lebron

Makes teammates better the best (best floor generals of all time)

Magic
Big O
Nash
Kidd
Stockton

Big men who made their teammates better the best:

Duncan
Russell
Walton
KG


Special category for THE PLAYER who wasn't really score first or pass first. But was great at both AND ALWAYS seemed to make the proper play:

Bird
My thoughts exactly. Even down to your avatar.

[bizil]

My thoughts exactly. Even down to your avatar.

Thanks sir! Great minds think alike!

[LAZERUSS]

Most dominant:

Shaq
Wilt
MJ
Kareem
Lebron

Makes teammates better the best (best floor generals of all time)

Magic
Big O
Nash
Kidd
Stockton

Big men who made their teammates better the best:

Duncan
Russell
Walton
KG


Special category for THE PLAYER who wasn't really score first or pass first. But was great at both AND ALWAYS seemed to make the proper play:

Bird

Pretty much my sentiments, albeit, I would move Lebron into the "makes team better" category.

My Top-4 for all-time "winners"...(in any order)

Magic
Duncan
Russell
Bird

[toxicxr6]

how does somebody who has been a integral part of 5 championships while playing at an elite level not make his team better


Because Kobe was the result of playing with other teammates who made him better..
Shaq made Kobe better
Gasol made Kobe better

Kobe doesn't belong on this list at all. Take those two players away from Kobe teams and it is evident that Kobe actually makes his teammates worse..