Ray Allen vs Keyon Dooling fight 2006 season

[Smoke117]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b8HGIzT_lI

I remember when this happened...it's funny thinking about it considering how Ray is perceived these days. Nice take down too. It's kind of sad how young this board is...I rarely ever see shit brought up from Ray's Sonic days. (so of course the Bucks days are completely almost forgotten...you dont know how many times i've read on youtube...RAY ALLEN CAN DUNK!? :facepalm...yeah...he was in the same dunk contest kobe won... ) I suppose it's as much as a technology issue than anything...there just isn't that much quality footage from those days late 90s, early 2000s days. It also seems weird to me that Stacey Augmon was even still in the league at this time...he was the 3rd string sf on the Blazers in 2000...

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Its too bad Ray isnt in his prime now. Easily best SG. He was overshadowed back then especially by Kobe. Ray had like 45 one game in an amazing game with Phoenix, multiple clutch shots...........the type of game that would be up for best performance of the season...............then later that day Kobe drops 81:lol :lol

[Jameerthefear]

Its too bad Ray isnt in his prime now. Easily best SG. He was overshadowed back then especially by Kobe. Ray had like 45 one game in an amazing game with Phoenix, multiple clutch shots...........the type of game that would be up for best performance of the season...............then later that day Kobe drops 81:lol :lol
no harden would still be >

[Legends66NBA7]

I've seen the play and even watched that game.


What's Rays perception on here btw ?

[gasolina]

Robert Swift sighting!

[bizil]

no harden would still be >

I agree! If Ray was in the L now, he would be the 2nd best SG in the L. Harden would have the edge due to better passing. Even though Ray was a pretty good passing SG himself. But Harden is flat out a great passing SG. But in most eras, Ray Allen would have been a top 3 SG in the world.

His best years JUST HAPPENED to be in the Golden Era of SG. So he was more of a top 6 SG in the world instead of a top 3 SG. Ray, AI, Wade, Kobe, Manu, and Vince for sure will be HOFers. Pierce was a swingman and his primary position was SG for multiple seasons. He will go down as an HOF SF, but he saw plenty of time at the SG.

T Mac at his peak was a top 5 SG of all time. So hopefully he will get in the HOF one day. He's a seven time All Star AND seven time All NBA. Joe Johnson may have a bordeline case, but I don't think he will get in.

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

I agree! If Ray was in the L now, he would be the 2nd best SG in the L. Harden would have the edge due to better passing. Even though Ray was a pretty good passing SG himself. But Harden is flat out a great passing SG. But in most eras, Ray Allen would have been a top 3 SG in the world.

His best years JUST HAPPENED to be in the Golden Era of SG. So he was more of a top 6 SG in the world instead of a top 3 SG. Ray, AI, Wade, Kobe, Manu, and Vince for sure will be HOFers. Pierce was a swingman and his primary position was SG for multiple seasons. He will go down as an HOF SF, but he saw plenty of time at the SG.

T Mac at his peak was a top 5 SG of all time. So hopefully he will get in the HOF one day. He's a seven time All Star AND seven time All NBA. Joe Johnson may have a bordeline case, but I don't think he will get in.

While Harden is a better passer Ray was MUCH better offball. He's one of the best shooters ever and created space for his teammates just moving around screens. Ray could initiate offense and bring the ball up tho he wasn't Reggie Miller.

And Ray was clearly better defensively. Ray wasn't anything special on defense but Hardon is complete ass so that adds up. his man D was good, his discipline, staying with defense scheme

[Smoke117]

I know i babbled on in my OP, but so very people seem to understand that the Celtics and beyond Ray Allen is him PAST HIS PRIME and that was not how he played in general in his best days. He was an absolute stud in the early and mid 2000s. Those 2005 Sonics took the Spurs to six games and gave them a very competitive series.

[Smoke117]

While Harden is a better passer Ray was MUCH better offball. He's one of the best shooters ever and created space for his teammates just moving around screens. Ray could initiate offense and bring the ball up tho he wasn't Reggie Miller.

And Ray was clearly better defensively. Ray wasn't anything special on defense but Hardon is complete ass so that adds up. his man D was good, his discipline, staying with defense scheme

Ray was a better scorer than Harden, period. James Harden takes advantage in the fact that the league is so soft now and you can't do anything physical against perimeter players so he drives relentlessly. He's no Dwyane Wade though who actually went to the basket trying to score (which is why this dwhistle shit makes no sense...), he just drives to get the foul. Ray was already 30 when that rule went through in 2006. (and had a career year in scoring) It's pretty obvious under these rules his entire career he'd be a more prolific scorer. Frankly every perimeter player is overrated and has to be reevaluted the last 10 years because of the rule change. Think about it...ray was already 30 when this rule went through...think of how dominate he would have been if he was playing under these rules on the Bucks in his athletic prime.

[Jameerthefear]

While Harden is a better passer Ray was MUCH better offball. He's one of the best shooters ever and created space for his teammates just moving around screens. Ray could initiate offense and bring the ball up tho he wasn't Reggie Miller.

And Ray was clearly better defensively. Ray wasn't anything special on defense but Hardon is complete ass so that adds up. his man D was good, his discipline, staying with defense scheme
okay
but he still wasnt better than harden

[Smoke117]

okay
but he still wasnt better than harden

That teenager logic...basically run your mouth without backing it up. I remember when I was 17 too.

[Jameerthefear]

In ray's highest scoring year (06-07) he didn't even finish top 15 in MVP voting. and Harden in '15 was more efficient, scored more, and rebounded and passes better. And finished #2 in MVP voting.

[Smoke117]

In ray's highest scoring year (06-07) he didn't even finish top 15 in MVP voting. and Harden in '15 was more efficient, scored more, and rebounded and passes better. And finished #2 in MVP voting.

So you want to compare a 31 year old Ray Allen who never got to enjoy these rule changes in his prime to a 25 year old Harden because that makes so much sense. He's a more efficient scorer because of the rules...you realize this, right? It almost makes me cringe to think how much we agree on Dwight Howard to read you say this bullshit. You sound like a kobe stan with your obnxious mvp voting talk...I thought you knew more about basketball...I guess I was wrong.

People don't realize that Ray actually got the FT line LESS IN THE 2006 season than he did in the 2005 season before the rule changes. The rules changed and you couldn't bully perimeter players...they pretty much all got to the line a lot more. Ray was kind of the exception there...he actually put buckets in the basket. Without the ft's Harden is a joke compared to Ray. Harden has absolutely no mid range shot and takes moronic step back three pointers regularly. Hell when Ray actually attacked the basket and tried to score (not get the whistle) he's better than Harden in that aspect to. I would take a 2001 Ray Allen Over a 2015 Harden any day of the week. (and twice on sunday when the mail man doesn't deliver- scottie) It's one of the reasons why I respect Ray so much...he just knew how to put the ball in the hoop and didn't any ref assistance.

[Jameerthefear]

Looking back at it, the highest Ray has EVER finished in MVP voting is tied for 9th.

[Killbot]

Looking back at it, the highest Ray has EVER finished in MVP voting is tied for 9th.

Jam,

Harden has Dwight and is in the era of weak SGs with more importance in spacing. Let that sink in. Helps your efficiency having a great big man down low and more space + era of happy trigger refs. Ray didn't have any great big men during his prime before the Celtics, when he was in the tail end of his prime with Garnett.

He had ok big men and that's it.

[Killbot]

I know i babbled on in my OP, but so very people seem to understand that the Celtics and beyond Ray Allen is him PAST HIS PRIME and that was not how he played in general in his best days. He was an absolute stud in the early and mid 2000s. Those 2005 Sonics took the Spurs to six games and gave them a very competitive series.

And that's without Rashard Lewis, 2nd leading scorer, for most of the series due to injury

[VIP2000]

Jam,

Harden has Dwight and is in the era of weak SGs with more importance in spacing. Let that sink in. Helps your efficiency having a great big man down low and more space + era of happy trigger refs. Ray didn't have any great big men during his prime before the Celtics, when he was in the tail end of his prime with Garnett.

He had ok big men and that's it.

C'mon now. Harden averaged like 26ppg for the Rockets before Dwight arrived, with a 2nd year Chandler Parsons and Jeremy Lin as his running mates (albeit in a super fast paced offense).

I would say Harden (almost in his prime) and a prime Ray Allen would be neck-to-neck for best SG.

[Fallen Angel]

Jam,

Harden has Dwight and is in the era of weak SGs with more importance in spacing. Let that sink in. Helps your efficiency having a great big man down low and more space + era of happy trigger refs. Ray didn't have any great big men during his prime before the Celtics, when he was in the tail end of his prime with Garnett.

He had ok big men and that's it.
Harden had probably one of the worst versions of Dwight Howard in D12's career. He averaged near career lows in PPG, RPG, and BPG while playing half the season. Let's also not act like Howard is this scary post presence that will always garner a double team.

Harden is able to anchor an offense way better than any version of Ray Allen. That ability is highlighted by Harden's ability to rack up assists with mediocre offensive threats.

[Fallen Angel]

I would say Harden (almost in his prime) and a prime Ray Allen would be neck-to-neck for best SG.
Harden would be number 1 and it wouldn't be close.

He's putting up numbers resembling the greatest perimeter players our game has seen at the young age of 25.

http://bkref.com/tiny/SIaX9

[clipps]

no harden would still be >


Prime Ray Allen > Current James Harden at anything basketball related.

[20Four]

no harden would still be >
:roll: :roll:

[Jameerthefear]

:roll: :roll:
What are you laughing at midget? I want my fries and coke bitch.

[20Four]

What are you laughing at midget? I want my fries and coke bitch.
Why you quoting what your customers say to you?

[Jameerthefear]

Why you quoting what your customers say to you?
I'm not quoting shit midget. Get my damn fries NOW.

[20Four]

I'm not quoting shit midget. Get my damn fries NOW.
:roll: :roll:

[bizil]

When it comes to Harden vs. Ray, I slightly prefer Harden because of his passing ability. He's a better slasher than Ray was. Harden HASN'T even peaked yet either. He's really just starting to enter his prime years. But if somebody chose Ray over Harden, I wouldn't argue it all. But I WOULD DISAGREE! I think they are very close in terms of who the better player is. I think MJ, Kobe, Wade, T-Mac, and West are clearly the top five SG's ever peak wise. After that, many of the guys are close in terms of ability.

[Jameerthefear]

T-Mac? ...interesting choice to say the least.

[Smoke117]

1. Take this cat fight to the PM's, ladies.

2. Get the f@ck out of my thread.

[Smoke117]

When it comes to Harden vs. Ray, I slightly prefer Harden because of his passing ability. He's a better slasher than Ray was. Harden HASN'T even peaked yet either. He's really just starting to enter his prime years. But if somebody chose Ray over Harden, I wouldn't argue it all. But I WOULD DISAGREE! I think they are very close in terms of who the better player is. I think MJ, Kobe, Wade, T-Mac, and West are clearly the top five SG's ever peak wise. After that, many of the guys are close in terms of ability.


Harden is a shitty finisher though. He's better at getting to the basket, but Ray is a much better finisher. Harden really needs to go practice with Dwade and/or Tony Parker and learn their scoop shots and floaters. The most important difference between them is Ray doesn't need ft's to be a successful scorer...Harden does. That's why Hardens game doesn't carry over to the playoffs where things become more intense and they call less p@ssy (really? ***** is censored? jesus christ jeff) ticky tack fouls. Ray has never needed ft's to be a prevalent scorer. In that 51 point game he had in 2009 in the playoffs vs the bulls he took 7 ft's...Harden would have needed about 20 to get to 51.

[Jameerthefear]

how is he a shitty finisher when he finishes at the at a higher % with much higher attempts?

[Smoke117]

how is he a shitty finisher when he finishes at the at a higher % with much higher attempts?

Different rules. Ray was already 30 when the rules changed and made it easier on perimeter players. He was already past his prime as a slasher. Ray is incredibly underrated for the simple fact that he was pretty much the most efficient sg out of Iverson, Kobe, Vince, Tmac etc during those early 2000s. In 2001 for instance he averaged 22ppg on a ridiculous .610%ts. That's with only averaging 4.8fta's too. Look at any of those other guys and their efficiency doesn't come close to that before the rule changes.

We all know that Ray and all those others had career years in 2006, but Ray didn't have the advantage of being young when that rule was changed though, so the majority of his prime and best years were spent within the old rules. His scoring stats would obviously be higher if he played under those rules for his entire career like Steph Curry has been able to. Curry's efficiency would take a big hit if you could actually be physical with him. He's a little bitch as far as strength.

[Jameerthefear]

so harden finishes better on 300 more attempts at the rim and it's just "different rule" :hammerhead:

[Smoke117]

Pretty much, yes. Go find some women to hate, I'm done with you.

[20Four]

so harden finishes better on 300 more attempts at the rim and it's just "different rule" :hammerhead:
:roll: :roll:

[Fallen Angel]

This dude thinks Ray Allen is a better finisher than Harden :lol.

[Jameerthefear]

This dude thinks Ray Allen is a better finisher than Harden :lol.
I showed him the stats and all he says is "different rules" :oldlol:
What a ****ing convenient argument :lol

[bizil]

Harden is a shitty finisher though. He's better at getting to the basket, but Ray is a much better finisher. Harden really needs to go practice with Dwade and/or Tony Parker and learn their scoop shots and floaters. The most important difference between them is Ray doesn't need ft's to be a successful scorer...Harden does. That's why Hardens game doesn't carry over to the playoffs where things become more intense and they call less p@ssy (really? ***** is censored? jesus christ jeff) ticky tack fouls. Ray has never needed ft's to be a prevalent scorer. In that 51 point game he had in 2009 in the playoffs vs the bulls he took 7 ft's...Harden would have needed about 20 to get to 51.

As u stated, Harden LOOKS TO ATTACK the rack more than Ray does. So despite his finishing shortcomings, it's not always about finishing at the rack. It's about CONSISTENTLY attacking the rack to put pressure on the defense. But the main reason I slightly take Harden over Ray is due to passing. Scoring wise, I think they are even. Defense wise, Ray is the better defender. But passing and rebounding wise, Harden is better. And Harden at 6'5 and 220 is more physical.

And Harden doesn't need free throws to be a successful scorer. HE'S JUST TAKING ADVANTAGE of today's rules. If those rules weren't in place, Harden has the ability to ADAPT!! He's SMART so he takes advantage of today's climate. And Harden's game hasn't even peaked yet. He's only 25 years old and just completed his sixth season. He has plenty of time to work on his shortcomings.

[Fallen Angel]

The only thing Ray Allen has over James Harden is man defense, shooting ability, and off-ball movement. Even with that, Ray Allen isn't some lockdown defender, James Harden is still an elite shooter, and James Harden mainly plays with the ball in his hands.

Harden's 2015 season is in that 1st Tier of SG seasons in the post-Jordan era. 27 points per game, 7 assists per game, and 5 rebounds per game on good efficiency while leading his team to the 2nd seed in the West and winning the hardest division in the league while also reaching all the way to the WCF.

[Smoke117]

The only thing Ray Allen has over James Harden is man defense, shooting ability, and off-ball movement. Even with that, Ray Allen isn't some lockdown defender, James Harden is still an elite shooter, and James Harden mainly plays with the ball in his hands.

Harden's 2015 season is in that 1st Tier of SG seasons in the post-Jordan era. 27 points per game, 7 assists per game, and 5 rebounds per game on good efficiency while leading his team to the 2nd seed in the West and winning the hardest division in the league while also reaching all the way to the WCF.


:lol :oldlol: :roll: In what reality is James Harden an elite shooter?...lmfao.

[Fallen Angel]

He made 37.5% of his threes while taking 7 of them per game. That type of efficiency is comparable to Ray Allen's 4th and 5th best seasons taking a high volume of threes per game.

2.6 of 6.9 on 37.5%
vs.
2.7 of 7.1 on 37.6%
2.6 of 7.0 on 37,7%

[bizil]

T-Mac? ...interesting choice to say the least.

Peak wise, T Mac has A GREAT CASE as a top 5 SG of all time! I'm not saying u have to agree. But u can't really argue it either. HE CLEARLY HAS A CASE!! If u don't see that, u aren't a student of the game to BEGIN WITH!!!

And even among SF's, T Mac HAS A GREAT CASE peak wise to be in the top 5. For all intents and purposes, T Mac was the perfect swingman!!

[Smoke117]

Peak wise, T Mac has A GREAT CASE as a top 5 SG of all time! I'm not saying u have to agree. But u can't really argue it either. HE CLEARLY HAS A CASE!! If u don't see that, u aren't a student of the game to BEGIN WITH!!!

And even among SF's, T Mac HAS A GREAT CASE peak wise to be in the top 5. For all intents and purposes, T Mac was the perfect swingman!!

No he really doesn't...Tmac was never that great beyond that one 2003 sesaon...Grant Hill 95 to 2000 was better than Tmac ever was, period.

[GIF REACTION]

Shooting Guards are the lite version of Small Forwards

The REAL power perimeter position

[Smoke117]

Shooting Guards are the lite version of Small Forwards

The REAL power perimeter position

And you are the complete bitch made version of a legit insidehoops poster. You insult me and anyone else with your bullshit. Stick to troll theads. I will bury you and all you hold dear if you **** with me.

[tomtucker]

Robert Swift sighting!
http://i0.wp.com/radaronline.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/robert-swift-filthy-house-nc.png?fit=551%2C9999'''

http://cdn.acidcow.com/pics/20130308/things_found_in_a_former_pro_athletes_foreclosed_h ouse_08.jpg
.
http://media.komonews.com/images/130304_swift4.jpg

[bizil]

No he really doesn't...Tmac was never that great beyond that one 2003 sesaon...Grant Hill 95 to 2000 was better than Tmac ever was, period.

LMAO!! T Mac was a great player for MULTIPLE SEASONS!! So much so he was seven time All NBA!! A lot of HOF SG's weren't All NBA as many times as T Mac. Peak wise, T Mac EASILY has a case as a top 5 SG of all time. At SF, it's not as clear cut.

But even at SF, I think T Mac has a case. Other than Lebron, Bird, and Durant, I think I would take T Mac over most SF's to ever play. Once again I'm talking about peak. And NOT GOAT status.

[KembaWalker]

And you are the complete bitch made version of a legit insidehoops poster. You insult me and anyone else with your bullshit. Stick to troll theads. I will bury you and all you hold dear if you **** with me.

:roll:

[Smoke117]

Damn I was really shit faced...not my best moments in this thread.