Dennis Rodman as a Bull

[97 bulls]

I felt i had to make this thread in response to this constant claim that Rodman was not a great defender with the Bulls. And using his stats in the playoffs as proof.

This is a post from Don Dada: "Rodman averaged 4 PPG/8 RPG for the whole 1997 playoffs." Totally dismissing his actual defense.

Heres another from Don Dada
"He had a combined 3 points and 10 rebounds in games 2 and 3 of the Finals against MVP Karl Malone and the Jazz.

And the Bulls still won the 'ship thanks to the most clutch finals series ever by the GOAT. He had a combined 3 points and 10 rebounds in games 2 and 3 of the Finals against MVP Karl Malone and the Jazz.

And the Bulls still won the 'ship thanks to the most clutch finals series ever by the GOAT. "

Dada totally dismisses Rodmans actual defense on Malone.

Heres a post from Datash:
" He was 35-37 years old by the time the playoffs rolled around and was no where near the DPOY level defender he was in the late 80s"

I don't see how anyone can make this claim if they really watched the Bulls during their second run. And its not Just these two. The Jordanaires have gone out of their way to undermine the contributions of Jordans teammates. And usually center their agenda around stats. The fact is the most important way to judge a player is by their impact. When you have a guy capable of literally shutting down the opposition's best scoring threat, you have to put that impact as high as that of a great scorer. Mainly because of what happens to the team when their number 1 option is having a hard time just getting open.

Through Rodmans time with the Bulls, he shut down arguably the two most dominant low post players in the NBA. Shaquille O'Neal and Karl Malone.

I posted some videos i found actually showing what Rodman did to these two players in their matchup together. Im not gonna post stats because it doesnt tell the whole story. A large percentage of Malone and Oneals success came against Luc Longley. And i noticed one prevailing theme when wathcing these videos. Shaq and Malone would start the game off hot. Looking to be well on their way to a monster game. Rodman is put on them, and they have hard time just getting position.

And this isnt one game it was over the course of a whole series.

Heres Shaq vs Rodman.

Dennis Rodman Schools and Destroys Shaq (Document

[97 bulls]

Heres Rodman vs Malone. Again. Notice how well Malone starts off vs Longley and then how much he shrivels up when Rodman is put on him. Not to mention the commentators constantly saying that Rodman shut down Malone.
Dennis Rodman shuts down Karl Malone - 1998 Final…: http://youtu.be/EglLZwE_frI

Dennis Rodman shuts down Karl Malone - 1998 Final…: http://youtu.be/NWwI1_8WEcoDennis

Rodman shuts down Karl Malone - 1998 Final…: http://youtu.be/LksCGBWXWdsDennis

Rodman shuts down Karl Malone - 1998 Final…: http://youtu.be/eC0B-9Ma-8M

Hopefully this ends this notion that the Bulls won in spite of Rodman. That he had great impact on the game as a Bulls, and that he was a great defender still. Just in the low post.

[Akrazotile]

Very well stated, OP. Excellent research and clear perspective.

For all these lay chumps out there, lemme put it a different way.

Boiled down: Rodman > Kobe

Lebron > MJ

[97 bulls]

Heres another vid vs Shaq. The Lakers were up by 20+ points. Rodman checks Shaq, the Bulls run that vaunted trap/full court pressure defense and they come all the way back and beat the Lakers in overtime

Dennis Rodman shuts down Shaq - 0 pts in 2nd Half

[97 bulls]

Heres one vs Barkley
Rodman shuts down Barkley (8 pts) + Good Defense

[DonDadda59]

Dennis Rodman was the same age when he joined the Bulls as Ben Wallace was when he joined the Cavs.

And he did in fact put up 4 PPG and 8 RPG on 37% FG during the entire 1997 playoffs (after missing nearly 30 games during the regular season). He averaged 2.3 PPG and 7.7 RPG on 25% FG in the finals. The Bulls won 69 games and the championship regardless. There is nothing factually incorrect about that. Tristan Thompson just averaged 10 PPG and 11 RPG on 56% FG in this past Spring's playoffs.

Why do you have such an emotional attachment to this issue? Did I say anything factually incorrect? :confusedshrug:

[97 bulls]

Duncan and Robinson
Dennis Rodman Defense on Rookie Duncan + David Ro

[97 bulls]

Dennis Rodman was the same age when he joined the Bulls as Ben Wallace was when he joined the Cavs.

And he did in fact put up 4 PPG and 8 RPG on 37% FG during the entire 1997 playoffs (after missing nearly 30 games during the regular season). He averaged 2.3 PPG and 7.7 RPG in the finals. The Bulls won 69 games and the championship regardless. There is nothing factually incorrect about that. Tristan Thompson just averaged 10 PPG and 11 RPG on 56% FG in this past Spring's playoffs.

Why do you have such an emotional attachment to this issue? Did I say anything factually incorrect? :confusedshrug:
If anyone is spinning something its you. I know why you posted Rodmans stats. Its to discredit him. Undermine his contribution. You even stated the Bulls only won because of Jordan.

All i did was post the actual video and put context to it.

[DonDadda59]

...

Be honest now, since you got your panties in a bunch because sane rational people ranked franchise players like Pau and Bosh over a role player like Dennis... if Pau averages 4 PPG and 8 RPG on 37% FG in the 2009 or 2010 playoffs and 2.3 PPG and 7.7 RPG on 25% FG in the finals... do the Lakers win the championship?

Honesty is the best policy.


If anyone is spinning something its you. I know why you posted Rodmans stats. Its to discredit him. Undermine his contribution. You even stated the Bulls only won because of Jordan.

All i did was post the actual video and put context to it.

:rolleyes:

So I'm discrediting a player by posting their actual, documented production? OK.

Answer the question- if either Chris Bosh during the collusion era or Pau Gasol during the Lakers title run put up the same numbers that Dennis Rodman did in 1997 (the team you named yourself after)... do their teams win a championship?

Could either squads win 69 games with those guys missing 27+ games during the regular season?

[DonDadda59]

Any time now.

Don't run away from your own thread. See what happens when you name drop and think people won't come see you about it? Lesson learned I suppose. :lol

[DatAsh]

I'm not a "Jordanaire", and I don't particularly care for agenda threads such as this. Both sides are blinded by bias to the point where it's not even worth having a discussion.

Like you said in the other thread, defense is something that's difficult to quantify. My opinions are based on my memory of what I thought at the time. My thoughts at the time, were:

Jordan and Rodman had really fallen off defensively from what they used to be
Pippen was now the Bulls best defender by far
Harper was a really good defender, arguably better than Jordan or Rodman



I don't see how anyone can make this claim if they really watched the Bulls during their second run

I don't see how anyone that watched them could disagree with that. You just have an agenda to push though, so I'll leave you to that.

Either that or you never saw Rodman as a Piston.

[kshutts1]

Heres a post from Datash:
" He was 35-37 years old by the time the playoffs rolled around and was no where near the DPOY level defender he was in the late 80s"

I don't see how anyone can make this claim if they really watched the Bulls during their second run. And its not Just these two. The Jordanaires have gone out of their way to undermine the contributions of Jordans teammates. And usually center their agenda around stats. The fact is the most important way to judge a player is by their impact. When you have a guy capable of literally shutting down the opposition's best scoring threat, you have to put that impact as high as that of a great scorer. Mainly because of what happens to the team when their number 1 option is having a hard time just getting open.

Through Rodmans time with the Bulls, he shut down arguably the two most dominant low post players in the NBA. Shaquille O'Neal and Karl Malone.


The fact that I agree with your basic point aside, some glaring mistakes...
Rodman NEVER "literally shut down" Malone or Shaq. Did he "literally shut down" them? Or just "shut down"? Huge literal difference.

DatAsh strikes me as a pretty level-headed dude. He's one of the handful of posters whose opinion/thoughts I won't take as fact, but I'll consider them and/or do more research in to the topic to see if I am wrong. So I'm not sure he should be included.

[90sgoat]

Rodman did play great defense in spurts. His lack of offense really hurt though.

Here's the thing, Rodman gets to look very good because he has so few responbilities and his team wins (because of MJ and Pippen).

Had Rodman had such a series for another team, he wouldn't have been seen on favorably. Rodman only worked because he played with the GOAT scorer who didn't requite ANY offensive production.

Keep this in mind with Harper too, who barely every had to do anything on offense. MJ was that dominant and reliable a scorer that the Bulls basically played 2 guys who were never asked to score.

[stalkerforlife]

Box scores could NEVER calculate Rodman's presence. NEVER.

They could NEVER calculate his defense. Help and man to man.

[1987_Lakers]

Rodman was GREAT in his first season with the Bulls, in '97 & '98 however he became very inconsistent in the postseason, there is a reason why Phil Jackson didn't even start him in the majority of postseason games in 1998.

[97 bulls]

Be honest now, since you got your panties in a bunch because sane rational people ranked franchise players like Pau and Bosh over a role player like Dennis... if Pau averages 4 PPG and 8 RPG on 37% FG in the 2009 or 2010 playoffs and 2.3 PPG and 7.7 RPG on 25% FG in the finals... do the Lakers win the championship?

Honesty is the best policy.



:rolleyes:

So I'm discrediting a player by posting their actual, documented production? OK.

Answer the question- if either Chris Bosh during the collusion era or Pau Gasol during the Lakers title run put up the same numbers that Dennis Rodman did in 1997 (the team you named yourself after)... do their teams win a championship?

Could either squads win 69 games with those guys missing 27+ games during the regular season?
Again. Its the context that you're trying to push across. You're trying to say that based on those stats, Rodman didn't have a great series. Thats not true. The actual video proves it. Your stats are misleading my friend. Its no different than if you were to tell me you owned a Lamborghini, then pull a Hot Wheels Lamborghini out of your pocket. Did you lie? No. Context is important.

To answer your Chris Bosh/ Pau Gasol question. Again. Get away from stats bro. Gasol and Bosh approach the game in a totally different way from Rodman. Its about impact. So no. The Lakers and Heat don't win with those two having that type of a game because i know theyre not gonna make their mark on the defensive end to the degree that Rodman did. IMPACT IMPACT IMPACT!!!!!!! I cant stress this enough.

And alluding to the Bulls winning 69 games with Rodman missing almost 30 means nothing more than they had a great team. They also had one of the best records without Pippen in 98 and Jordan in 94.

Ive said this a million times. The Bulls championships should be sperated into two groups, 91-93 and then 94-98. The 94 team resembled the second threepeat team much more than the first. Theyre the only team that provee they could win without Jordan, or Rodman, or Pippen

And thus why they're the greatest team ever.

[97 bulls]

I'm not a "Jordanaire", and I don't particularly care for agenda threads such as this. Both sides are blinded by bias to the point where it's not even worth having a discussion.

Like you said in the other thread, defense is something that's difficult to quantify. My opinions are based on my memory of what I thought at the time. My thoughts at the time, were:

Jordan and Rodman had really fallen off defensively from what they used to be
Pippen was now the Bulls best defender by far
Harper was a really good defender, arguably better than Jordan or Rodman




I don't see how anyone that watched them could disagree with that. You just have an agenda to push though, so I'll leave you to that.

Either that or you never saw Rodman as a Piston.
I didnt mean to lump you in when i mentioned the Jordanaires. I was refferimg to Dada 3ball Oodschoolbball Samaria Swish types. Definitely not you.

And theres no agenda. You made a point and inrefuted it with videos. What actually happened. Rodman was a great defender with the Bulls.

[97 bulls]

The fact that I agree with your basic point aside, some glaring mistakes...
Rodman NEVER "literally shut down" Malone or Shaq. Did he "literally shut down" them? Or just "shut down"? Huge literal difference.

DatAsh strikes me as a pretty level-headed dude. He's one of the handful of posters whose opinion/thoughts I won't take as fact, but I'll consider them and/or do more research in to the topic to see if I am wrong. So I'm not sure he should be included.
Shut down in the context that he the players mentioned didnt score???? Off course not. When i say literrally i mean these guys were completely taken out of the game

[97 bulls]

Rodman did play great defense in spurts. His lack of offense really hurt though.

Here's the thing, Rodman gets to look very good because he has so few responbilities and his team wins (because of MJ and Pippen).

Had Rodman had such a series for another team, he wouldn't have been seen on favorably. Rodman only worked because he played with the GOAT scorer who didn't requite ANY offensive production.

Keep this in mind with Harper too, who barely every had to do anything on offense. MJ was that dominant and reliable a scorer that the Bulls basically played 2 guys who were never asked to score.
Again... This is just blatantly false. How can his "lack of offense" hurt the team if hes constantly getting them extra rebounds????? You can't leave Rodman. If you do hes gonna end up having 15/22 with 9 offensive rebound type games.

I dont see what your point is about playing defense in spurts. Nor do i agree with it. Please enlighten me.

[97 bulls]

Rodman was GREAT in his first season with the Bulls, in '97 & '98 however he became very inconsistent in the postseason, there is a reason why Phil Jackson didn't even start him in the majority of postseason games in 1998.
Why? Maybe because he felt he needed more offense. The fact is Rodman had great impact even in 97 and 98.

[DatAsh]

And theres no agenda. You made a point and inrefuted it with videos. What actually happened. Rodman was a great defender with the Bulls.

Your videos don't refute what I said. What I said was, Rodman as a bull was a good defender, arguably a great defender in 96, but he wasn't the DPOY level defender he was as a Piston.

[1987_Lakers]

Why? Maybe because he felt he needed more offense. The fact is Rodman had great impact even in 97 and 98.

Translation: Rodman was a liability on offense which is why he was benched.

[TheMarkMadsen]

according to Jordan fans Pippen isn't top 100 and was literally created in a lab by michael jordan who programmed him and everything

rodman was the biggest scrub on the team, didn't play defense, didn't do shit.

[SouBeachTalents]

according to Jordan fans Pippen isn't top 100 and was literally created in a lab by michael jordan who programmed him and everything

rodman was the biggest scrub on the team, didn't play defense, didn't do shit.

3ball response forthcoming

[97 bulls]

Your videos don't refute what I said. What I said was, Rodman as a bull was a good defender, arguably a great defender in 96, but he wasn't the DPOY level defender he was as a Piston.
How can you make the claim???? Tell me what you saw that makes you say such????

[97 bulls]

An fyi.... I didnt make the videos. I dont even have videos (wish i did)

[97 bulls]

Translation: Rodman was a liability on offense which is why he was benched.
Don't know hiw you can say such. He just had a better offensive option. He was always on the court at the end of games.

[TheMarkMadsen]

3ball response forthcoming

Pippen was the first test tube baby, created entirely in a secret Chicago lab by Michael Jordan

[kshutts1]

Pippen was the first test tube baby, created entirely in a secret Chicago lab by Michael Jordan
Jordan thought so little of his own skills and abilities that he had to create someone completely different. True beta.

[kshutts1]

If you don't know the definition of the word "literal" I suggest you not use it. High probability of misuse. See: this thread.

[SouBeachTalents]

Pippen was the first test tube baby, created entirely in a secret Chicago lab by Michael Jordan

Man, considering Pippen wasn't even a top 100 player of all time and Jordan had the weakest championship cast of all time, whether as a scientist or GM, dude just had a horrible knack for picking talent

[TheMarkMadsen]

Man, considering Pippen wasn't even a top 100 player of all time and Jordan had the weakest championship cast of all time, whether as a scientist or GM, dude just had a horrible knack for picking talent

true, we are talking about a guy who approved of swapping Rip Hamilton for Jerry Stackhouse.

[DonDadda59]

Again. Its the context that you're trying to push across. You're trying to say that based on those stats, Rodman didn't have a great series. Thats not true. The actual video proves it. Your stats are misleading my friend. Its no different than if you were to tell me you owned a Lamborghini, then pull a Hot Wheels Lamborghini out of your pocket. Did you lie? No. Context is important.

According to people here, video proves that Seventh Woods>>>Lebron James at the same age. :lol

It doesn't change the fact that Rodman was putting up 4 PPG 8 RPG on 37% FG in the '97 playoffs and 2.3 PPG and 7.7 RPG on 25% FG in the finals. That's horrible and part of the reason Phil took to benching him those last 2 playoffs.

He was a role player, which is why I couldn't in good conscience rank franchise players below him. Of course that had you catching the worst feelings imaginable. To the point you had to start this thread.


To answer your Chris Bosh/ Pau Gasol question. Again. Get away from stats bro. Gasol and Bosh approach the game in a totally different way from Rodman. Its about impact. So no. The Lakers and Heat don't win with those two having that type of a game because i know theyre not gonna make their mark on the defensive end to the degree that Rodman did. IMPACT IMPACT IMPACT!!!!!!! I cant stress this enough.

The Bulls won 69 games with Rodman missing 27 in 1997. And they won the championship with him putting up 4 PPG and 8 RPG on 37% FG in the playoffs and 2.3 PPG on 7.7 RPG on 25% FG in the finals. I can't stress this enough.

The Lakers don't win 50 games or get out of the first round if Pau misses 27 games or puts up that production in the playoffs.

On the flipside, put Pau on the Bad Boy Pistons coming off the bench like Rodman (let's be real, he'd start over Laimbeer) or the Spurs that won 59 games after Dennis was traded for Will Perdue or on the '96-'98 Bulls, and Pau retires with 6 or 7 rings.

[SamuraiSWISH]

He was a great defender in 1996 on the low block for PF and Centers. And was obviously an amazing rebounder. He could frustrate the best low block players in the game Shaq, Kemp, basically anyone. He was injured quite a bit and missed a number of games from '96 - '98.

'97, and '98 saw steep regressions in his mental, and physical abilities. Suddenly his out bursts, and weirdness became more difficult to tolerate because he wasn't the player he was from 1996 to prior.

As for his quality of a defender as a Bulls v.s. the player he was on San Antonio, or certainly Detroit? He was definitely better as a Spur, but didn't have a leader to reign him in like Jordan.

On the Pistons? He could guard SGs - PFs and light weight centers. Easily a superior overall player offensively, and especially defensively on the Pistons than he was on Chicago.

[97 bulls]

According to people here, video proves that Seventh Woods>>>Lebron James at the same age. :lol

It doesn't change the fact that Rodman was putting up 4 PPG 8 RPG on 37% FG in the '97 playoffs and 2.3 PPG and 7.7 RPG on 25% FG in the finals. That's horrible and part of the reason Phil took to benching him those last 2 playoffs.

He was a role player, which is why I couldn't in good conscience rank franchise players below him. Of course that had you catching the worst feelings imaginable. To the point you had to start this thread.



The Bulls won 69 games with Rodman missing 27 in 1997. And they won the championship with him putting up 4 PPG and 8 RPG on 37% FG in the playoffs and 2.3 PPG on 7.7 RPG on 25% FG in the finals. I can't stress this enough.

The Lakers don't win 50 games or get out of the first round if Pau misses 27 games or puts up that production in the playoffs.

On the flipside, put Pau on the Bad Boy Pistons coming off the bench like Rodman (let's be real, he'd start over Laimbeer) or the Spurs that won 59 games after Dennis was traded for Will Perdue or on the '96-'98 Bulls, and Pau retires with 6 or 7 rings.
I don't see why i have to keep answering the same question. Ok how bout statistics since this seems to be the only thing thats important to you.

In 97 Karl Malome avg 27 ppg on 55% shooting. And won the MVP (even though Jordan deserved it)

In the Finals. 23 ppg on roughly 47% shooting. And its even worse than that if you take out that 37 pts game he had. Put Gasol or Bosh in Rodmans place and he sure he will score more. But so will Malone. I think he may push 35 on 60% if he had Gasol on him. Again both players have different styles. You just refuse to take the derensive side of the ball into account.

[97 bulls]

He was a great defender in 1996 on the low block for PF and Centers. And was obviously an amazing rebounder. He could frustrate the best low block players in the game Shaq, Kemp, basically anyone. He was injured quite a bit and missed a number of games from '96 - '98.

'97, and '98 saw steep regressions in his mental, and physical abilities. Suddenly his out bursts, and weirdness became more difficult to tolerate because he wasn't the player he was from 1996 to prior.

As for his quality of a defender as a Bulls v.s. the player he was on San Antonio, or certainly Detroit? He was definitely better as a Spur, but didn't have a leader to reign him in like Jordan.

On the Pistons? He could guard SGs - PFs and light weight centers. Easily a superior overall player offensively, and especially defensively on the Pistons than he was on Chicago.
I agree with half of this. I think his injuries and being suspended for 20 games for kicking that cameraman hurt his perception as a defender. But are you guys even watching the videos? How can you measure the difference in defense between Spurs Rodman and Bulls Rodman. Definitely not the eye test because the video shows him having a tremendous effect defensivly on the best bigs in the game at the time.

[DonDadda59]

I don't see why i have to keep answering the same question. Ok how bout statistics since this seems to be the only thing thats important to you.

In 97 Karl Malome avg 27 ppg on 55% shooting. And won the MVP (even though Jordan deserved it)

In the Finals. 23 ppg on roughly 47% shooting. And its even worse than that if you take out that 37 pts game he had. Put Gasol or Bosh in Rodmans place and he sure he will score more. But so will Malone. I think he may push 35 on 60% if he had Gasol on him. Again both players have different styles. You just refuse to take the derensive side of the ball into account.

Dwight in '08-'09: 21 PPG on 57% FG
Dwight in '09 Finals vs Pau: 15 PPG on 49% FG
* Pau: 18/9/2/2 on 60% FG in this series

KG in '09-'10: 14.2 PPG/ 7 RPG on 52% FG
KG in '10 Finals vs Pau: 15.3 PPG/5.6 RPG on 51% FG
*Pau: 19/12/4/3 on 48% FG in this series

If Pau 'shut down' KG to the tune of 24/10/4 on 47% FG while putting up 2.3 PPG and 7.7 RPG on 25% FG... do you envision the Lakers winning the championship in 2010? :confusedshrug:

Be honest now.

And how do you think either team would fare if you swapped bench-riding Rodman from '88-'90 on the Pistons with Pau from '08-'10 on the Lakers. No other roster changes for both teams.

[Smoke117]

LOL shaq was shooting 39% from the ft line in this playoffs...jesus christ, that's Deandre Jordan level of shitiness.

Also Dennis Rodman was not as good as defensive player on the Bulls as he was on the Pistons...that's just a simple fact. He also should never have won those DPOY over Dream.

[97 bulls]

Dwight in '08-'09: 21 PPG on 57% FG
Dwight in '09 Finals vs Pau: 15 PPG on 49% FG
* Pau: 18/9/2/2 on 60% FG in this series

KG in '09-'10: 14.2 PPG/ 7 RPG on 52% FG
KG in '10 Finals vs Pau: 15.3 PPG/5.6 RPG on 51% FG
*Pau: 19/12/4/3 on 48% FG in this series

If Pau 'shut down' KG to the tune of 24/10/4 on 47% FG while putting up 2.3 PPG and 7.7 RPG on 25% FG... do you envision the Lakers winning the championship in 2010? :confusedshrug:

Be honest now.

And how do you think either team would fare if you swapped bench-riding Rodman from '88-'90 on the Pistons with Pau from '08-'10 on the Lakers. No other roster changes for both teams.
Dude. You can't possibly be serious. Comparing Shaq and Malone to Kevin Garnett and Dwight Howard offensively????? Incredible.

I personally think replacing Gasol with Rodman hurts the Pistons because it changes the whole dynamic of the team. The Pistons actually traded Adrian Dantley to make room for Rodman. And lets not forget. Whose Rodman spent a lot of time on Bird, Jordan, and Pippen. You want Gasol chasing Jordan around on the perimeter?????

[97 bulls]

LOL shaq was shooting 39% from the ft line in this playoffs...jesus christ, that's Deandre Jordan level of shitiness.

Also Dennis Rodman was not as good as defensive player on the Bulls as he was on the Pistons...that's just a simple fact. He also should never have won those DPOY over Dream.
Prove it. Not saying i disagree. Because I've always maintained that he was still great. But what makes you say he was better as opppsed to a different type of defender

[Sarcastic]

Pistons won because of Isiah, not Dennis Rodman.

Pau on Bad Boys Pistons is 3 peating at least.

[Smoke117]

Prove it. Not saying i disagree. Because I've always maintained that he was still great. But what makes you say he was better as opppsed to a different type of defender


Why do I need to prove something you have just said you basically agree with? You silly man, you.

[DonDadda59]

Dude. You can't possibly be serious. Comparing Shaq and Malone to Kevin Garnett and Dwight Howard offensively????? Incredible.

Where did I compare any player to another? You're being emotional again for no reason.

I was just pointing out that Gasol was able to limit the star big on the opposite team while putting up infinitely better production himself. I mean, does Karl Malone not get credit for turning a 6 PPG/ 16 RPG (45% FG) into a 2 PPG/8 RPG (25% FG) player in the finals? :confusedshrug:

Why is it so hard for you to admit that the Bulls won 69 games and a championship despite Rodman missing 27 regular season games, putting 4/8 (36% FG) in the playoffs, and 2/8 (25% FG) in the finals. The man was terrible and getting benched for Jason Caffey.


I personally think replacing Gasol with Rodman hurts the Pistons because it changes the whole dynamic of the team. The Pistons actually traded Adrian Dantley to make room for Rodman. And lets not forget. Whose Rodman spent a lot of time on Bird, Jordan, and Pippen. You want Gasol chasing Jordan around on the perimeter?????

Why on Earth would Pau Gasol have to chase Jordan around on the perimeter when his primary defender on the Pistons was always Joe Dumars? :biggums:

Laimbeer
Gasol
Dantley/Aguirre
Dumars
Thomas
Bench: Microwave, Mahorn, Edwards, Salley

Robinson
Gasol
Elliot
Ellis
Johnson
Bench: Cummings, Del Negro, Anderson, Person, Reid

Longley
Gasol
Pippen
Jordan
Harper
Bench: Kukoc, Kerr, Wennington, Caffey

Those are all guaranteed championship squads. I would put money on the Spurs beating the Rockets in '95. We know D-Rob thrived when he had a twin tower situation going on.

On the flip side...

Wright
Rodman
Posey
Miller
Wiliams
Bench: Wells, Battier, Watson, Swift

That would be a squad made up of 100% role players. :lol

They wouldn't make the playoffs.

Bynum
Rodman
Ariza/World Peace
Kobe
Fisher
Bench: Odom, Walton, Farmar, Vujacic

Is maybe a second round team. If Bynum can't stay healthy (and he can't), they struggle mighitly to even make the playoffs. First round exit at best.

[97 bulls]

Where did I compare any player to another? You're being emotional again for no reason.

Ain't that what you're doing? Then why even bring uo the stats of Howard? Its not the same thing. Malone and Shaq are both 10 times the offensive forces Dwight Howard is.


I was just pointing out that Gasol was able to limit the star big on the opposite team while putting up infinitely better production himself. I mean, does Karl Malone not get credit for turning a 6 PPG/ 16 RPG (45% FG) into a 2 PPG/8 RPG (25% FG) player in the finals? :confusedshrug:
Lol Dwight Howard??? And how often was he even defending Howard???? Bynum played as well. I'd be willing to bet that most of Gasols points came against Rashard Lewis. And Bynum always checked Howard when he was on the floor. And dont forget most of the points Malone scored was on Longley not Rodman.

Absolutely give credit to Malone. But heres the problem. Malones impact wasnt gonna be on defense so much as his offense.


Why is it so hard for you to admit that the Bulls won 69 games and a championship despite Rodman missing 27 regular season games, putting 4/8 (36% FG) in the playoffs, and 2/8 (25% FG) in the finals. The man was terrible and getting benched for Jason Caffey.
Hard to admit. I've been saying this since I've been on this site. And he was never benched for Caffey. Caffey replaced Rodman when he was suspended. Now Kukoc was the starter during the following season in the playoffs. But as the video shows. Rodman had far more impact.




Why on Earth would Pau Gasol have to chase Jordan around on the perimeter when his primary defender on the Pistons was always Joe Dumars? :biggums:
Why on Earth do they need Gasol? This is your POV not mine


Laimbeer
Gasol
Dantley/Aguirre
Dumars
Thomas
Bench: Microwave, Mahorn, Edwards, Salley

Robinson
Gasol
Elliot
Ellis
Johnson
Bench: Cummings, Del Negro, Anderson, Person, Reid

Longley
Gasol
Pippen
Jordan
Harper
Bench: Kukoc, Kerr, Wennington, Caffey

Those are all guaranteed championship squads. I would put money on the Spurs beating the Rockets in '95. We know D-Rob thrived when he had a twin tower situation going on.

On the flip side...

Wright
Rodman
Posey
Miller
Wiliams
Bench: Wells, Battier, Watson, Swift

That would be a squad made up of 100% role players. :lol

They wouldn't make the playoffs.

Bynum
Rodman
Ariza/World Peace
Kobe
Fisher
Bench: Odom, Walton, Farmar, Vujacic

Is maybe a second round team. If Bynum can't stay healthy (and he can't), they struggle mighitly to even make the playoffs. First round exit at best.
There's soooo many variables to this concept. I can say the Grizzlies wins at least 2 championships with Rodman in place of Gasol. How can you argue otherwise????

I disagree as to the Pistons success. You relegate Gasol to being a jumpshooter defense first big. That is what the Lakers wanted him to do in 11 onward. How did that work??? Or, you take the ball out of Thomas hands and go more into the post. How is Aguirre gonna b effective? He liked working in the post as well. Just too many "ifs".

And let's not forget last year Gasol had a great team in Chicago and we got smashed by the Cavs. And he got outplayed by Tristan Thompson and Timofy Mosgov.

[97 bulls]

Why do I need to prove something you have just said you basically agree with? You silly man, you.
I didn't say I agreed. I'm not disagreeing. I wanted to know why you made the claim.

[1987_Lakers]

Just a random thought, but I believe Pau Gasol has to be one of the most mistreated players in NBA History by the media/fans. This is a guy who got blamed for the Lakers losing in 2008 because he was "soft". How does he respond? He helps LA win back to back titles while improving his game and being the clear cut #2 guy on the Lakers, but that wasn't enough. In future seasons he was always the scapegoat when LA struggled which really bothered me. The way LA treated him has to be one of the most ****ed up things I've ever seen. It didn't help that the Lakers pretty much changed his playing style in his last few seasons there...

No coincidence that Gasol had one of his best seasons in the last few years last season with Chicago.

[DonDadda59]

Just a random thought, but I believe Pau Gasol has to be one of the most mistreated players in NBA History by the media/fans. This is a guy who got blamed for the Lakers losing in 2008 because he was "soft". How does he respond? He helps LA win back to back titles while improving his game and being the clear cut #2 guy on the Lakers, but that wasn't enough. In future seasons he was always the scapegoat when LA struggled which really bothered me. The way LA treated him has to be one of the most ****ed up things I've ever seen. It didn't help that the Lakers pretty much changed his playing style in his last few seasons there...

No coincidence that Gasol had one of his best seasons in the last few years last season with Chicago.

Mike D'Antoni has to be the biggest fraud of a coach the NBA ever produced. This man wanted Pau, possibly the most potent post weapon in the league at the time, chucking 3s mindlessly. :wtf:

Best thing Pau ever did was leaving that ungrateful city. Look at the great season he had and look at the dumpster fire that is the Lakers. Who are they going to use as their scapegoat now? Russell? Randle? Clearly won't be the guy shooting 37% while chucking 20 FGA though. Go figure.

[NuggetsFan]

Jordan is the GOAT. Let's be real tho. He teamed up with the best possible personal possible. Pippen who's literally one of the greatest defensive players ever, greatest teammate, and could run an offense. Same with Rodman. His impact is insane. The energy and defensively ability will NEVER show up in boxscores, never appear on the radar of the individuals who love to obsess over one individual player which sadly seems like the majority of the NBA fanbase. Jordan gets the flashy numbers, and all the credit. Rodman is shitted on because his lack of production.

It's the same with Kobe/Shaq. Without Shaq Kobe's not in the top 10. That 3 peat is everything. LeBron? If he doesn't team up with Wade he's a Barkley/Malone. If I give LeBron any credit it's that he was smart enough to know the basketball world. People will forget about the collusion and his teammates and just give him the 2 rings like all the stars before him.

NBA fans are hilarious and so much different than NFL/NHL/MLB fans. Just weirdo's obsessed with individuals and there rankings. The NBA is like the pop world. Some fans just the glorified versions of what makes Taylor Swift and Katy Perry millions .

[Smoke117]

I didn't say I agreed. I'm not disagreeing. I wanted to know why you made the claim.


This is like me trying to tell you that Scottie was just as good of a defender in 2000 on the blazers as he was in his prime in 94. The body is a machine with a time table and you can't obviously do what you were doing in your mid to late 20s as you were doing in your mid 30s. That's simple anatomy.

[97 bulls]

Jordan is the GOAT. Let's be real tho. He teamed up with the best possible personal possible. Pippen who's literally one of the greatest defensive players ever, greatest teammate, and could run an offense. Same with Rodman. His impact is insane. The energy and defensively ability will NEVER show up in boxscores, never appear on the radar of the individuals who love to obsess over one individual player which sadly seems like the majority of the NBA fanbase. Jordan gets the flashy numbers, and all the credit. Rodman is shitted on because his lack of production.

It's the same with Kobe/Shaq. Without Shaq Kobe's not in the top 10. That 3 peat is everything. LeBron? If he doesn't team up with Wade he's a Barkley/Malone. If I give LeBron any credit it's that he was smart enough to know the basketball world. People will forget about the collusion and his teammates and just give him the 2 rings like all the stars before him.

NBA fans are hilarious and so much different than NFL/NHL/MLB fans. Just weirdo's obsessed with individuals and there rankings. The NBA is like the pop world. Some fans just the glorified versions of what makes Taylor Swift and Katey Perry millions .
Great post. I couldn't agree more.

[97 bulls]

Just a random thought, but I believe Pau Gasol has to be one of the most mistreated players in NBA History by the media/fans. This is a guy who got blamed for the Lakers losing in 2008 because he was "soft". How does he respond? He helps LA win back to back titles while improving his game and being the clear cut #2 guy on the Lakers, but that wasn't enough. In future seasons he was always the scapegoat when LA struggled which really bothered me. The way LA treated him has to be one of the most ****ed up things I've ever seen. It didn't help that the Lakers pretty much changed his playing style in his last few seasons there...

No coincidence that Gasol had one of his best seasons in the last few years last season with Chicago.
Very true. Dantoni basically tried to make Gasol Dirk Nowitzki. That's not his game

[97 bulls]

Mike D'Antoni has to be the biggest fraud of a coach the NBA ever produced. This man wanted Pau, possibly the most potent post weapon in the league at the time, chucking 3s mindlessly. :wtf:

Best thing Pau ever did was leaving that ungrateful city. Look at the great season he had and look at the dumpster fire that is the Lakers. Who are they going to use as their scapegoat now? Russell? Randle? Clearly won't be the guy shooting 37% while chucking 20 FGA though. Go figure.
So true. Funny how we agree on so many points. But you get real strange when it comes yo Michael Jordan and the Bulls

[Bosnian Sajo]

Dennis Rodman was the same age when he joined the Bulls as Ben Wallace was when he joined the Cavs.

And he did in fact put up 4 PPG and 8 RPG on 37% FG during the entire 1997 playoffs (after missing nearly 30 games during the regular season). He averaged 2.3 PPG and 7.7 RPG on 25% FG in the finals. The Bulls won 69 games and the championship regardless. There is nothing factually incorrect about that. Tristan Thompson just averaged 10 PPG and 11 RPG on 56% FG in this past Spring's playoffs.

Why do you have such an emotional attachment to this issue? Did I say anything factually incorrect? :confusedshrug:


It's not that you're posting anything incorrect, it's the fact that you are just posting stats, when clearly that doesn't tell the whole story (wouldn't be so clear if you didn't watch Rodman on the bulls...).

[90sgoat]

So true. Funny how we agree on so many points. But you get real strange when it comes yo Michael Jordan and the Bulls

You're a Lebron stan trying to pass yourself off as a Bulls fan.

We all see through it.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Love when people say dumb stuff like "Jordan puts up the flashy numbers and gets all the credit" as if Jordan (even in '96-'98) wasn't:

- One of the most hustling SG's of all time - he'd dive for balls, get on the ground, jump into the stands when necessary.

- An all-world defender

- One of the 5 best rebounding guards of all time, capable of upping his rebounding when needed to cover holes (see: his 9+ rpg in Rodman's absence in 1997, or his 8 rpg in the '97 playoffs)

ITT: people acting like Jordan was Kobe Bryant.

[iamgine]

What is Malone's '97 & '98 Finals average only when Rodman is in the game?

[Millslapped]

The fact that I agree with your basic point aside, some glaring mistakes...
Rodman NEVER "literally shut down" Malone or Shaq. Did he "literally shut down" them? Or just "shut down"? Huge literal difference.

DatAsh strikes me as a pretty level-headed dude. He's one of the handful of posters whose opinion/thoughts I won't take as fact, but I'll consider them and/or do more research in to the topic to see if I am wrong. So I'm not sure he should be included.
he sure as hell shut down shaq

[LootOP]

I will leave this just here, taken from a reddit post:

inkw3llMagic1d, 7h293
Michael Jordan never lost more than 2 games in a row from November 1990 until he retired from the Bulls (for the second time) in 1998.
wise_drunkerBulls1d, 4h138
Also never lost a series in which the Bulls had home court advantage. 24-0

From 1991 to 1998:

25-1 series record

21-1 in 7 first rounds

26-11 in 2nd round

24-8 on ECF

24-11 on NBA Finals

For a 95-31 record. That's the equivalent of a 62 win team in a 82 game season that played those 82 games against playoff teams...

[97 bulls]

Love when people say dumb stuff like "Jordan puts up the flashy numbers and gets all the credit" as if Jordan (even in '96-'98) wasn't:

- One of the most hustling SG's of all time - he'd dive for balls, get on the ground, jump into the stands when necessary.

- An all-world defender

- One of the 5 best rebounding guards of all time, capable of upping his rebounding when needed to cover holes (see: his 9+ rpg in Rodman's absence in 1997, or his 8 rpg in the '97 playoffs)

ITT: people acting like Jordan was Kobe Bryant.
But he wasnt doing it by himself.

[97 bulls]

You're a Lebron stan trying to pass yourself off as a Bulls fan.

We all see through it.
Why would you say such? Simply because Jordan had great teammates.

[DonDadda59]

It's not that you're posting anything incorrect, it's the fact that you are just posting stats, when clearly that doesn't tell the whole story (wouldn't be so clear if you didn't watch Rodman on the bulls...).

I saw most of the games Rodman played as a Bull and let's not sit here and make believe that 2.3 PPG and 7.7 RPG on 25% FG (when he averaged 6 PPG and 16 RPG on 45% FG) isn't absolutely abysmal production, especially for someone people try to prop up and give undue credit to for that Bulls championship. If Michael Jordan doesn't have the most clutch series in NBA finals History, the Bulls lose in 6 games instead of winning a championship, and history remembers Rodman's series as one of the absolute worst chokes ever.

But everyone glosses over it now because the Bulls won and they act like the Bulls were some sort of triumvirate during that season and playoffs when the reality is Dennis was clearly waaaaay past his best and his production in the playoffs and especially the finals was horrid. The man was getting benched by Phil regularly it got so bad.

Again, Rodman when he joined the Bulls was the same age as Ben Wallace was when he joined the Cavs.

[97 bulls]

I saw most of the games Rodman played as a Bull and let's not sit here and make believe that 2.3 PPG and 7.7 RPG on 25% FG (when he averaged 6 PPG and 16 RPG on 45% FG) isn't absolutely abysmal production, especially for someone people try to prop up and give undue credit to for that Bulls championship. If Michael Jordan doesn't have the most clutch series in NBA finals History, the Bulls lose in 6 games instead of winning a championship, and history remembers Rodman's series as one of the absolute worst chokes ever.

But everyone glosses over it now because the Bulls won and they act like the Bulls were some sort of triumvirate during that season and playoffs when the reality is Dennis was clearly waaaaay past his best and his production in the playoffs and especially the finals was horrid. The man was getting benched by Phil regularly it got so bad.

Again, Rodman when he joined the Bulls was the same age as Ben Wallace was when he joined the Cavs.
The man shut down two of the greatest offensive players ever. EVER!!!!!!! Why would you try to paint the perception that he had no contributions???? Thats a bold faced lie. The video, no VIDEOS show it.

And what i like most is that it shows the points, misses, battling for post position and how it effects the whole offense. Every time Rodman was on these two. As well as how they faired vs Longley.

[DonDadda59]

The man shut down two of the greatest offensive players ever. EVER!!!!!!! Why would you try to paint the perception that he had no contributions???? Thats a bold faced lie. The video, no VIDEOS show it.

And what i like most is that it shows the points, misses, battling for post position and how it effects the whole offense. Every time Rodman was on these two. As well as how they faired vs Longley.

You have a bizarre definition of 'shut down'. And I didn't 'try to paint the perception that he had no contributions'. I'm just pointing out that his contributions that season have been grossly overblown by people who never saw him play. There was a reason he was getting benched and had his minutes limited by Phil and it wasn't because of his great 'impact'.

It's because he wasn't fully healthy and he played like absolute shit. But despite all that, the Bulls still won 69 regular season games and the championship.

[Dr.J4ever]

Jordan is the GOAT. Let's be real tho. He teamed up with the best possible personal possible. Pippen who's literally one of the greatest defensive players ever, greatest teammate, and could run an offense. Same with Rodman. His impact is insane. The energy and defensively ability will NEVER show up in boxscores, never appear on the radar of the individuals who love to obsess over one individual player which sadly seems like the majority of the NBA fanbase. Jordan gets the flashy numbers, and all the credit. Rodman is shitted on because his lack of production.

It's the same with Kobe/Shaq. Without Shaq Kobe's not in the top 10. That 3 peat is everything. LeBron? If he doesn't team up with Wade he's a Barkley/Malone. If I give LeBron any credit it's that he was smart enough to know the basketball world. People will forget about the collusion and his teammates and just give him the 2 rings like all the stars before him.

NBA fans are hilarious and so much different than NFL/NHL/MLB fans. Just weirdo's obsessed with individuals and there rankings. The NBA is like the pop world. Some fans just the glorified versions of what makes Taylor Swift and Katy Perry millions .

Not NBA fans in general, but ISH fans in particular are obsessed with individuals and stars. If you go to team websites like the ones from SB Nation, all fans do there is talk teams and building the franchise. The real world.

This is what has disappointed me with ISH. Too many posters arguing for individuals. I don't even know if they are fans of the game, a team, or just one player.It' s almost like a cult or religion.:(

[3ball]

Not NBA fans in general, but ISH fans in particular are obsessed with individuals and stars. If you go to team websites like the ones from SB Nation, all fans do there is talk teams and building the franchise. The real world.

This is what has disappointed me with ISH. Too many posters arguing for individuals. I don't even know if they are fans of the game, a team, or just one player.It' s almost like a cult or religion.:(
LOL regarding "building teams"... None of you guys are general managers - you're dumb fans that don't know shit - how the **** are you going to build a team when you can't properly evaluate talent?.. (regarding new fans not knowing shit - i.e. to combat your MJ fatigue, you've argued on many occasion that the 80's had spacing)

Your post above is the euphemistic, sugar-coated garbage - it's the post of someone who simply has MJ fatigue, even though you don't have the capacity/understanding to properly evaluate his game.
.

[Blue&Orange]

Not NBA fans in general, but ISH fans in particular are obsessed with individuals and stars. If you go to team websites like the ones from SB Nation, all fans do there is talk teams and building the franchise. The real world.
Tell me more about this SB Nation. Is it free of Lebrontards?

[97 bulls]

You have a bizarre definition of 'shut down'.
It's a metaphor. Of course he didn't literally shut him down in the aspect that he took his life or something. It's no different than if we say this team KILLED that team. Or so and so CARRIED his team. Stop being so childish.


And I didn't 'try to paint the perception that he had no contributions'. I'm just pointing out that his contributions that season have been grossly overblown by people who never saw him play.
Thats not what the videos show.


There was a reason he was getting benched and had his minutes limited by Phil and it wasn't because of his great 'impact'.
Right. Because he wanted more offense on the court. Duh.


It's because he wasn't fully healthy and he played like absolute shit. But despite all that, the Bulls still won 69 regular season games and the championship.
Once again. That's not what the videos show. Listen to the commentators. Rodman is being interviewed after games vs the Jazz basee on his defense on Malone. And I posted videos from multiple games through out the seasons in question

[iamgine]

What was Malone's 97 & 98 Finals stats only when Rodman is in the game?
Anyone?

[97 bulls]

Anyone?
Not sure. But as the video shows. He was extremely effective.

[3ball]

Thats not what the videos show.


The videos show the times Rodman did well.

But overall, with Karl Malone as his primary defensive assignment, Rodman let Karl go off for 24/10 in the 1997 Finals and 25/11 in the 1998 Finals, while only providing 3/7 himself on both occasions.

[97 bulls]

The videos show the times Rodman did well.

But overall, with Karl Malone as his primary defensive assignment, Rodman let Karl go off for 24/10 in the 1997 Finals and 25/11 in the 1998 Finals, while only providing 3/7 himself on both occasions.
Lol. This is just a flat out lie. The videos show EVERY INSTANCE where Rodman guarded Malone. Including the times when Malone scored on him.

[DonDadda59]

It's a metaphor. Of course he didn't literally shut him down in the aspect that he took his life or something. It's no different than if we say this team KILLED that team. Or so and so CARRIED his team. Stop being so childish.

So basically pure hyperbole. Rodman wasn't even Shaq's primary defender.



Thats not what the videos show.

OK.


Right. Because he wanted more offense on the court. Duh.

Meaning other guys' offensive impact was greater than Rodman's defensive impact and his nonexistent offense, or even rebounding really. Duh.

You still haven't addressed the fact that Rodman went from 6 PPG/ 16 RPG (45% FG) in the regular season to 4 PPG/ 8 RPG (37% FG) in the playoffs, putting up 2.3 PPG/ 7.7 RPG (25% FG) in the finals. His production fell off a cliff.

He simply got worse and worse as the season wore on and was eventually a liability on the court and had to be benched by the time the finals began.



Once again. That's not what the videos show. Listen to the commentators. Rodman is being interviewed after games vs the Jazz basee on his defense on Malone. And I posted videos from multiple games through out the seasons in question

You should find the videos where Rodman is being pulled from games because he was playing so terribly.

Can we all stop making believe that the Bulls got a prime Rodman. '96 was the last time he was healthy and productive from the beginning to the end of the season, and even then he missed 18 games in the RS. He was downright awful in the playoffs and finals in '97 and '98. He didn't even start a single game in the '98 finals.

[97 bulls]

So basically pure hyperbole. Rodman wasn't even Shaq's primary defender.




OK.



Meaning other guys' offensive impact was greater than Rodman's defensive impact and his nonexistent offense, or even rebounding really. Duh.

You still haven't addressed the fact that Rodman went from 6 PPG/ 16 RPG (45% FG) in the regular season to 4 PPG/ 8 RPG (37% FG) in the playoffs, putting up 2.3 PPG/ 7.7 RPG (25% FG) in the finals. His production fell off a cliff.

He simply got worse and worse as the season wore on and was eventually a liability on the court and had to be benched by the time the finals began.




You should find the videos where Rodman is being pulled from games because he was playing so terribly.

Can we all stop making believe that the Bulls got a prime Rodman. '96 was the last time he was healthy and productive from the beginning to the end of the season, and even then he missed 18 games in the RS. He was downright awful in the playoffs and finals in '97 and '98. He didn't even start a single game in the '98 finals.
Give it up Dada.

[DonDadda59]

Give it up Dada.

Give what up? :oldlol:

You think posting a few selective videos will make people who actually saw this man play forget what actually happened? It got to the point that Rodman became a liability on the court and was benched by Phil during the playoffs and finals in '97-'98. This is a fact. You can spin it however you want, it won't change History.

Rodman was way past prime, injury prone and his production plummeted from the RS to the playoffs to the finals. '96 was his last truly great season. Everything after that was spotty at best.

[GIF REACTION]

Don't bother responding 97. Don is a KNOWN jordan troll. It doesn't matter what the topic is, he'll find some way to prop up Michael Jeffrey.

[iamgine]

Not sure.
It's important piece of evidence.

[97 bulls]

You still haven't addressed the fact that Rodman went from 6 PPG/ 16 RPG (45% FG) in the regular season to*4 PPG/ 8 RPG (37% FG)*in the playoffs, putting up*2.3 PPG/ 7.7 RPG (25% FG)*in the finals. His production fell off a cliff.

I am gonna respond to this paragraph. This is the reason I made this thread. Statistically, Rodman had a bad series. But his impact was extremely great. I believe you realize this but are just too stubborn to admit it.

Did you watch the documentary with Shaq and Rodman???? He draws a parallel between the two and Russell and Chamberlain. He goes on to show the difference between stats and impact. Chamberlain would be held to 9 points on 4/12 shooting then once the Celtics get a comfortable lead they slack off and Chamberlain finishes with 30 meaningless pts in a blowout. It's about impact.

[3ball]

The videos show EVERY INSTANCE where Rodman guarded Malone.


The videos only show Games 1-4 of the 1998 Finals where Rodman only played 25 minutes - Rodman was often benched in that series because he was such a liability.. 25 minutes per game is ROLE PLAY.. And in the videos don't show Games 5 and 6, where where Malone went off for 27/9 and 29/9.

Also, you didn't post any games from the 1997 Finals - in those Finals, Malone went off for 25/10 on Rodman, just like he did in the 1998 Finals.. And what does Rodman give in response?... Surely he averaged 12+ rebounds per game, probably 15+.... Nope... 3/7 on 30% in both 1997 and 1998 Finals.

Since the Bulls were such juggernauts and so famous, people didn't notice that the 1997 and 1998 Rodman was the same garbage he was in 1999 with the Lakers... Phil Jackson noticed though - that's why Rodman was benched in the 1998 Finals, where he didn't even start one game and barely got 25 mpg in most games... How can someone who gets 25 mpg for 4 of the 6 games and averages 3/7 have the massive impact you claim?... It's impossible - it's only possible through delusion and ignoring the facts..
.

[97 bulls]

It's important piece of evidence.
Just watch the video. How can we be considered die hard basketball fans but refuse ti actually watch the games??????

[GIF REACTION]

https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png

[GIF REACTION]

Oh. Wow. Look who is at the top.

[iamgine]

Just watch the video. How can we be considered die hard basketball fans but refuse ti actually watch the games??????
Video is important but not enough.

[97 bulls]

The videos only show Games 1-4 of the 1998 Finals where Rodman only played 25 minutes - Rodman was often benched in that series because he was such a liability..
First of all he wasnt "benched" he came off the bench. If you've ever played any kind of athletics (I doubt you have) you'd know there is a tremendous difference. He was always on the court at the end of the games.


25 minutes per game is ROLE PLAY.. And in the videos don't show Games 5 and 6, where where Malone went off for 27/9 and 29/9.
I don't care about "role player". I care about how much impact a player has on the game. And you're right about the last two games. Maybe the maker hasn't got around to it. Even if Malone lit Rodman up like a cigarette in those two games. It happens. Great scorers have bad nights.


Also, you didn't post any games from the 1997 Finals - in those Finals, Malone went off for 25/10 on Rodman, just like he did in the 1998 Finals.. And what does Rodman give in response?... Surely he averaged 12+ rebounds per game, probably 15+.... Nope... 3/7 on 30% in both 1997 and 1998 Finals.
Here's Malones stats for 97. 27 ppgon 55% but vs the Bulls? He averged 23 on 47. Somebody did a very good job on him.




Since the Bulls were such juggernauts and so famous, people didn't notice that the 1997 and 1998 Rodman was the same garbage he was in 1999 with the Lakers... Phil Jackson noticed though - that's why Rodman was benched in the 1998 Finals, where he didn't even start one game and averaged 25 mpg... How can someone who gets 25 mpg and averages 3/7 have the massive impact you claim?... It's impossible - it's only possible through delusion and ignoring the facts..
I jusy posted videos showing how. You can't be this bull headed.

[97 bulls]

Video is important but not enough.
Unbelievable

[Blue&Orange]

Unbelievable
Yes unbelievable how deeply retards you are. You disregard his recorded production, but cherry picked videos are like the word of god.

I remember a youtube clip o Jerome James where he looked like the GOAT center.


I don't even know why people debate with lebrontards, they are truly the cockroaches of the internet they get destroyed over and over and over, but keep coming back. Just like cockroaches will be oblivious to nuclear Armageddon, lebrontards are oblivious to ridicule.

[97 bulls]

Yes unbelievable how deeply retards you are. You disregard his recorded production, but cherry picked videos are like the word of god.
Lol. Cherry picked? Its just games 1-4. Out of six games.


I remember a youtube clip o Jerome James where he looked like the GOAT center.
It's not a highlight reel. It's video of every play where Rodman guarded Malone. Make or miss.

[3ball]

Cherry picked? Its just games 1-4. Out of six games.

.
Except 36-year old Rodman wasn't capable of guarding Malone for more than 25 minutes or even being a starter anymore - he didn't start even 1 game in the 1998 Finals and was a role player, and just a bit-player at that.

And in Games 5 and 6, Malone went off for 27/9 and 29/9, for an overall series average of 25/11.. Rodman offset that by averaging 3/7 for the series.

Of course, there are NO videos for 1997, when Malone averaged the same 24/10 while Rodman averaged the same 3/7... Malone owned Rodman.

[97 bulls]

Except 36-year old Rodman wasn't capable of guarding Malone for more than 25 minutes or even being a starter anymore - he didn't start even 1 game in the 1998 Finals and was a role player, and just a bit-player at that.

What does it matter??? When he was put on Malone, he was effective. Thats the point. Why is this so hard for you to grasp. Maybe if Jackson put Rodman on Malone from the start, the Bulls wouldn't have needed six games.


And in Games 5 and 6, Malone went off for 27/9 and 29/9, for an overall series average of 25/11.. Rodman offset that by averaging 3/7 for the series.
I've already addressed this. Even if Malone got the best of Rodman for those two games, Rodman got the best of him for the series. Michael Jordan shot 39% one game in 91. Does that mean he had a bad series????


Off course, there are NO videos for 1997, when Malone averaged the same 24/10 while Rodman averaged the same 3/7... Malone owned Rodman.
No. Malone owned Longley. I don't know why Jackson wouldn't put Rodman on Malone from the start. He also put Longley on Kemp in 96. But that doesnt negate the fact that Rodman gave Malone fits when he was on him. And was still a great defender albeit in the low post as opposed to the perimeter earlier in his career.

[Poochymama]

No. Malone owned Longley.

What were Malone's percentages on Longley, and what were they on Rodman?

[97 bulls]

What were Malone's percentages on Longley, and what were they on Rodman?
I apologize for anwering a question with a question. But did you watch the videos?

[3ball]

What does it matter??? When he was put on Malone, he was effective. Thats the point. Why is this so hard for you to grasp. Maybe if Jackson put Rodman on Malone from the start, the Bulls wouldn't have needed six games.


Rodman's 25 mpg and not even starting 1 game in the 1998 Finals means he wasn't good enough to be a starter or play big minutes... End of story.

His horrible play was also proven by his abysmal playoff and Finals stats, which are far worse than his regular season stats - so it's a FACT that Rodman's playoff contribution was a SHELL of his normal contribution... :confusedshrug:

Btw, Rodman guarded Kemp... That was his main assignment... He guarded other guys too - he did great frustrating Brickowski and also getting 15 rpg, but Kemp well against Rodman.. Kemp was the only Sonic that had a good series... He put up great numbers and dunked on Rodman a bunch:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-20-2015/A2ugsT.gif

[1987_Lakers]

No offense 97 bulls, but you have to be one of the most stubborn posters on this site. Me and you have had many debates in past years and I've noticed you let your bias get in the way of logical thinking, it doesn't matter if the majority of people think you are wrong, you will argue your point to the end despite evidence showing otherwise. Not a good trait to have. This thread I'm about to show you is a great example...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=275820

[97 bulls]

Rodman's 25 mpg and not even starting 1 game in the 1998 Finals means he wasn't good enough to be a starter or play big minutes... End of story.

His horrible play was also proven by his abysmal playoff and Finals stats, which are far worse than his regular season stats - so it's a FACT that Rodman's playoff contribution was a SHELL of his normal contribution... :confusedshrug:

Btw, Rodman guarded Kemp... That was his main assignment... He guarded other guys too - he did great frustrating Brickowski and also getting 15 rpg, but Kemp well against Rodman.. Kemp was the only Sonic that had a good series... He put up great numbers and dunked on Rodman a bunch:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-20-2015/A2ugsT.gif
Nope. Longley primarily guarded Kemp. Watch the games. Did Rodman as well? Yes. But it was mostly Longley

[97 bulls]

No offense 97 bulls, but you have to be one of the most stubborn posters on this site.
No offense taken.


Me and you have had many debates in past years and I've noticed you let your bias get in the way of logical thinking, it doesn't matter if the majority of people think you are wrong, you will argue your point to the end despite evidence showing otherwise. Not a good trait to have. This thread I'm about to show you is a great example...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=275820
This is a bad bad example. I went through the first three pages. You know who responded??? The Jordanaires, you, and Celtic fans.

Saying thats, your no less stubborn. The arguments you've made as to your opinion are weak at best.

[1987_Lakers]

Here is another good example...


Longley was a solid center. And perfect for the bulls. He has a wet mis range jumper, was nifty in the post and a good man defender. In todays league, hed be top 10.

:roll: :roll:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=181206&page=2

[DonDadda59]

No offense 97 bulls, but you have to be one of the most stubborn posters on this site. Me and you have had many debates in past years and I've noticed you let your bias get in the way of logical thinking, it doesn't matter if the majority of people think you are wrong, you will argue your point to the end despite evidence showing otherwise. Not a good trait to have. This thread I'm about to show you is a great example...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=275820

On the first page: "Numbers are there in black and white. There is no bias. Only facts. Check them out yourself if you dont believe me." -97 Bulls

He was all about the numbers back then... but where was the video doe?

:yaohappy:

[97 bulls]

On the first page: "Numbers are there in black and white. There is no bias. Only facts. Check them out yourself if you dont believe me." -97 Bulls

He was all about the numbers back then... but where was the video doe?

:yaohappy:
And what does this prove???

[dhsilv]

He was a great defender in 1996 on the low block for PF and Centers. And was obviously an amazing rebounder. He could frustrate the best low block players in the game Shaq, Kemp, basically anyone. He was injured quite a bit and missed a number of games from '96 - '98.

'97, and '98 saw steep regressions in his mental, and physical abilities. Suddenly his out bursts, and weirdness became more difficult to tolerate because he wasn't the player he was from 1996 to prior.

As for his quality of a defender as a Bulls v.s. the player he was on San Antonio, or certainly Detroit? He was definitely better as a Spur, but didn't have a leader to reign him in like Jordan.

On the Pistons? He could guard SGs - PFs and light weight centers. Easily a superior overall player offensively, and especially defensively on the Pistons than he was on Chicago.


Just a glance at his defensive advanced stats but he was noticeably better in 98 and was about the same or better in 97 as he was in 90. Certainly other parts of his game and minutes played were lesser.

That said he certainly was living more off tricks and "experience" type moves than in years past.

[Dr.J4ever]

LOL regarding "building teams"... None of you guys are general managers - you're dumb fans that don't know shit - how the **** are you going to build a team when you can't properly evaluate talent?.. (regarding new fans not knowing shit - i.e. to combat your MJ fatigue, you've argued on many occasion that the 80's had spacing)

Your post above is the euphemistic, sugar-coated garbage - it's the post of someone who simply has MJ fatigue, even though you don't have the capacity/understanding to properly evaluate his game.
.

:lol Did I touch a nerve?

You seem to believe I was directly referring to you and your MJ Cult worship. Repeating daily all your BS on this site won't make it true, but it might make you feel better. Maybe.

Get a life!

[OldSchoolBBall]

Just a glance at his defensive advanced stats but he was noticeably better in 98 and was about the same or better in 97 as he was in 90. Certainly other parts of his game and minutes played were lesser.

That said he certainly was living more off tricks and "experience" type moves than in years past.

This is why stats like individual DRTG are pretty useless, and are tied to team/league trends more than individual impact. Rodman wasn't anywhere NEAR the defender in '97 or '98 that he was in 1990.

[juju151111]

This is why stats like individual DRTG are pretty useless, and are tied to team/league trends more than individual impact. Rodman wasn't anywhere NEAR the defender in '97 or '98 that he was in 1990.
DRTG says Boozer was a good defender with the bulls. :roll: its a team stat. Drapm is way better.

[97 bulls]

This is why stats like individual DRTG are pretty useless, and are tied to team/league trends more than individual impact. Rodman wasn't anywhere NEAR the defender in '97 or '98 that he was in 1990.
How unreasonable can you get? The videos shows him doing shutting down Shaq, Malone, Barkley, Duncan etc. In the same way he did Jordan, Magic, Worthy etc. Except one was on the perimeter the other in the post.

[97 bulls]

DRTG says Boozer was a good defender with the bulls. :roll: its a team stat. Drapm is way better.
No stats should be considered the end all be all when judging players. Boozers ratings are always high because he always guarded the worse defenders. Same as Bird in his career.

[lil jahlil]

Rodman was still amazing with the Bulls, but I would take Pistons Rodman 10 times out of 10.

[dhsilv]

This is why stats like individual DRTG are pretty useless, and are tied to team/league trends more than individual impact. Rodman wasn't anywhere NEAR the defender in '97 or '98 that he was in 1990.

Well a key KEY point to note is Rodman was playing less allowing him to be better when he was on the floor, but there's no doubt he wasn't the same guy who was running defensive player of the year awards. His offense had all be vanished (he could at least add SOMETHING on the pistons), but he was still a skilled defender who was far better at getting people off their games than stopping them with his raw skills, but perhaps being annoying and trash talking is a skill we should evaluate more?

[TheBigVeto]

the 96-98 bulls are overrated. David Stern helped them quite a lot.
91-93 bulls FTW.

[3ball]

You seem to believe I was directly referring to you and your MJ Cult worship. Repeating daily all your BS on this site won't make it true, but it might make you feel better. Maybe.

Get a life!


Get a life!.... says the guy who "builds teams" with his fellow internet nerds at sb nation... :roll:

And it isn't BS that the 80's lacked spacing, and it isn't BS that spacing makes it easier on offense... These things are facts which you deny, which makes you the delusional one spouting BS.

Just last week, I showed you that Magic was an elite midrange player (like most good players back then).. Then Shaqisgoat backed up my assertions with actual midrange stats for Magic during the 1985 playoffs - he shot 55% from midrange..

You were educated in that discussion and I was happy to do it... That's just one example of me having to educate you on the game.
.

[Round Mound]

Rodman not a good defender with the Bulls? :rolleyes: :facepalm