Is Bird the best off ball player in NBA history?

[stalkerforlife]

I watched some film of him yesterday and I was amazed at his basketball IQ. Bird was a master at cutting as soon as he passed, catching the defender sleeping. Bird would also post, pass it back out real quick, get the defenders off balance and proceed to post further toward the basket. I'm 33 and didn't see a ton of Bird while also having a high intellect. However, his basketball IQ is higher than any player in the league today.

Damn.

He'd be the best player in the league right now.

[senelcoolidge]

I saw Bird at the end of his career when he was having back problems. Even than when he could play he was outstanding. He could do so much without having to hold the ball forever. He's certainly the best Small Forward ever in my opinion.

[stalkerforlife]

I saw Bird at the end of his career when he was having back problems. Even than when he could play he was outstanding. He could do so much without having to hold the ball forever. He's certainly the best Small Forward ever in my opinion.

That's what I mean, bro. I was amazed at how much he could do without the ball in his hands.

It probably helped his teammates get into a better rhythm and helped them feel part of the game.

[SHAQisGOAT]

He has a great case for it, at least.

You make a pretty good description of his off-ball game there...
Bird was a beast at going through screens to get his shot off, he was a great cutter, terrific at reading his defender and quickly adapting, gained position extremely well, set up screens for teammates, knew when to spot-up to create space, could get the ball then immediately pass it and moved to create the best play... Just a tremendous OVERALL off-ball game, extremely beneficial to his teammates and towards his overall efficiency as well.

Plus, if you watch him in college you can see he already had a sick off-ball game and crazy basketball IQ... As NBA ready as one could be.

And yea, he's the GOAT forward and would've been the #1 player in the league right now, at his peak.

[CeltsGarlic]

That be Derrick Rose

[Fallen Angel]

http://bkref.com/tiny/pKiV5

[scandisk_]

That be Derrick Rose


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[warriorfan]

I watched some film of him yesterday and I was amazed at his basketball IQ. Bird was a master at cutting as soon as he passed, catching the defender sleeping. Bird would also post, pass it back out real quick, get the defenders off balance and proceed to post further toward the basket. I'm 33 and didn't see a ton of Bird while also having a high intellect. However, his basketball IQ is higher than any player in the league today.

Damn.

He'd be the best player in the league right now.

Curry, Jordan, and Bird.

[Coach Eddie]

I couldn't say definitively without really breaking down all the top guys at this, but he is certainly somebody that is in the conversation. I always thought Rip from the Pistons was amazing off ball.

[Coach Eddie]

That be Derrick Rose
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Rocketswin2013]

Peak Shaq was great off-ball. People don't talk about it enough.

[Odinn]

Among all-time great bigs, I think it's Bill Walton.
BTW, I'd say it's Bird as well among all names.

[StephHamann]

Deandre Jordan is the best off ball player in the league right now, all he does is setting screens and throwin in lob passes.

[finchyyy]

Yes.

[SexSymbol]

Although he almost never gets mentioned in these types of threads, Wade is an amazing off-ball player.

The only thing that you really need to have in order to be a great off-ball player is great bball IQ. In 12-13 Kobe and Nash were both great off-ball players playing off each other marvelously when both were healthy, which was a very small portiong of a season, though neither were known to be good off-ball players.

[Justinbask]

I think he gets mentioned with the other greats, just not the all out best.

[3ball]

.
No one in history is more explosive off a one-step vertical (drop-step) than MJ:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-13-2015/LJ8raP.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-03-2015/P5BrOZ.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/zC5nUD.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-10-2015/yIFtcV.gif



No one is more explosive from a pre-dribble, stationary position (triple threat position):


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/PIt8Kg.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-21-2015/PIr0LW.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/TGZukz.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-30-2015/B_wITa.gif

[3ball]

.
No one in history has MJ's level of off-ball sophistication:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-21-2015/5meJLi.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-02-2015/9VPzJD.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-11-2015/5_A_4K.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-05-2015/2KuKjd.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-02-2015/RHtH1z.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-10-2015/JAzUJm.gif

[dhsilv]

Dirk is another guy who puts up significant points without dominating the ball (time in his hands). He doesn't have bird's passing ability though I think of that as more an on ball thing especially with bird, though I guess how this gets defined is up for discussion.

Guys like Miller, Allen, Hamilton were exceptional coming of screens and in the catch and shoot in movement game.

[3ball]

Is there anyone that averaged 30+ as an off-ball player as many times as MJ did?

Anyone routinely get 40, 50, 60 playing off-ball?... :confusedshrug:

No one is close.. (well, except Bird).

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Bird with an HM to Dirk and Reggie

[Nuff Said]

got damn MJ was a ****in beast

[Smoke117]

I watched some film of him yesterday and I was amazed at his basketball IQ. Bird was a master at cutting as soon as he passed, catching the defender sleeping. Bird would also post, pass it back out real quick, get the defenders off balance and proceed to post further toward the basket. I'm 33 and didn't see a ton of Bird while also having a high intellect. However, his basketball IQ is higher than any player in the league today.

Damn.

He'd be the best player in the league right now.

And you are still not watching him with one.

[warriorfan]

And you are still not watching him with one.

No poster here has an iq higher than Smoke's BAC

[SHAQisGOAT]

.
No one in history has MJ's level of off-ball sophistication:

:rolleyes:

Please...

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-22-2015/RCnV4Y.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-22-2015/ho8z3e.gif

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http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-22-2015/lIIPII.gif

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http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/y%20Crazy%20Shot/Great%20Team%20Play/dj2bird2parish.gif~original

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-22-2015/es22Tp.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-22-2015/0gUvNC.gif


Just a small taste there...

[3ball]

Just a small taste there...


That's cool - Bird's off-ball game compares to MJ's, but remember that MJ was a guard... So he was often a primary ballhandler... Accordingly, his off-ball and his post game were just a PART of his overall game.

Whereas Bird relies exclusively on his off-ball and post-up game for his stats - of course, relying on off-ball and post game this is better than Lebron relying exclusively on suboptimal primary ballhandler/ball-dominance, but it's not as good as combining BOTH off-ball and primary ballhandler ability like MJ.
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[Prime_Shaq]

Peak Shaq was great off-ball. People don't talk about it enough.
This

[SHAQisGOAT]

That's cool - Bird's off-ball game compares to MJ's, but remember that MJ was a guard... So he was often a primary ballhandler... Accordingly, his off-ball and his post game were just a PART of his overall game.

Whereas Bird relies exclusively on his off-ball and post-up game for his stats - of course, relying on off-ball and post game this is better than Lebron relying exclusively on suboptimal primary ballhandler/ball-dominance, but it's not as good as combining BOTH off-ball and primary ballhandler ability like MJ.
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Compares to MJ's? No, Bird's off-ball game was better than MJ's.

So, now you're bringing on-ball ability to a thread about the best off-ball players? :rolleyes:
And yea, Bird relied EXCLUSIVELY on off-ball and post-up game :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Round Mound]

Certainly one of the best. Larry Bird was The Best All Around Player of the 80s.

[DatAsh]

.
No one in history is more explosive off a one-step vertical (drop-step) than MJ:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-13-2015/LJ8raP.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-03-2015/P5BrOZ.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/zC5nUD.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-10-2015/yIFtcV.gif



No one is more explosive from a pre-dribble, stationary position (triple threat position):


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/PIt8Kg.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-21-2015/PIr0LW.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/TGZukz.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-30-2015/B_wITa.gif

You're showing clips that showcase Jordan's quick decision making and explosive first step more than his off ball game. Jordan had a great off ball game, better than the superstars today, but when it comes to knowing where to be on the court at all times to hurt the other team the most, give me Bird over Jordan.

[stalkerforlife]

yes....yes larry bird is the best off ball player in nba history.... white people are so desperate to be the best @ something in basketball.Well here u can have best off ball player in nba history..take it...Are you happy now op?MAN I HATE WHITE PEOPLE!

I don't see color.

[pauk]

He was the greatest player to adopt off ball plays but i dont think he was the greatest AT off ball playing.... that was Reggie Miller for me, certainly Jordan & Kobe agree, thats all he did for 48 minutes, 24-7 for 20 years, his bag of tricks was ridicilous...

[CavaliersFTW]

He was the greatest player to adopt off ball plays but i dont think he was the greatest AT off ball playing.... that was Reggie Miller for me, certainly Jordan & Kobe agree, thats all he did for 48 minutes, 24-7 for 20 years, his bag of tricks was ridicilous...
How good was Jordan at flopping? Are you still working on the flop video?

[pauk]

How good was Jordan at flopping? Are you still working on the flop video?

Well, very good i guess, he was very smart, he knew how to exploit foul draws on both ends.... Its only called a "flop" when the foul drawing attempt fails but when it doesnt its a "veteran move" in Jordans time... from what ive seen so far & footage collected most often he got caught when he tried to draw a charge, so many "flops" there for him... its a very usual "flop" players get caught with, but thats not the only flops he got caught with & i have so far... and yes like i promised the video will happen.... and again, remember, im doing this only to show that any player in NBA history can look like the GOAT flopper if you stack all the flops he ever did into a video.... hate doing this to Jordan, but love doing this to you nay sayers... it will feel great... :)

[Lebronxrings]

i think lebron is up there. People will laugh but his cuts are dangerous and his one touch passes are very lethal. Not to mention he can hit the J.

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-22-2015/nGMgMn.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-22-2015/9DLP4a.gif


And yea, Bird relied EXCLUSIVELY on off-ball and post-up game :rolleyes: :rolleyes: [/B]




As you can see above, MJ had great passing highlights too while playing off-ball.. Also, Bird DID rely exclusively on off-ball and post.. Don't try to tell me he took guys off the dribble like a primary ballhandler, pg-style.

Granted, his handle was sick and he was capable (as the gifs show below), but it just wasn't something his team needed from him back then - it wasn't like he had teammates spreading the floor with great 3-point shooting to make drive-and-kick the force it is today - THEN his team might've needed some ball-domination from him like today's wings do.


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-22-2015/xpnFCC.gif

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[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-22-2015/TMiNgc.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-13-2015/LJ8raP.gif


Jordan had a great off ball game, better than the superstars today, but when it comes to knowing where to be on the court at all times to hurt the other team the most, give me Bird over Jordan.



Most guys are biased because they associate off-ball play with JJ Redick - they don't think of MJ as an "off-ball" player, so it's very easy for them to say Bird's off-ball game was better.. But in reality, MJ did stuff off-ball that Bird could only dream of doing (see gif above)..

Also, Bird relied exclusively on his off-ball/post game because that's the only way he could score consistently.. Otoh, MJ's off-ball game was only HALF of his game.. As a guard, there was a default level of primary ballhandler responsibilities that he was forced to undertake just by virtue of being a guard with great handle.






http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-22-2015/LaRhrm.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-12-2015/8qjun-.gif


You're showing clips that showcase Jordan's quick decision making and explosive first step more than his off ball game.



You have a misunderstanding of what off-ball play is.. When a player is running off-ball and then makes a quick move upon the catching the ball (first gif above) - this is off-ball play, as opposed to the far more time-consuming live-dribble/ball-domination (2nd gif).

All the MJ gifs I posted show catch-and-go drives out of the triple-threat position (pre-dribble, stationary position) - it's something many of today's best wings know nothing about (i.e. the live-dribble kings - harden and lebron - they never catch-and-go and rarely operate out of the triple-threat).

Also, the drop-step gifs are obviously off-ball plays - when a player moves off-ball, then catches the ball, and then drop-steps and scores, that's an off-ball play... And most of MJ's drop-step plays are one of a kind - no one in history has the overall athleticism necessary to make any of those plays - that's why MJ is the only guy in history making those types of hangtime, dipsy-do shots off a drop-step.
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[OldSchoolBBall]

[B]Compares to MJ's? No, Bird's off-ball game was better than MJ's.

Disagreed. I'd say they were equal, possibly slight edge to MJ at his best.

[ralph_i_el]

You have a misunderstanding of what off-ball play is.. When a player is running off-ball and then makes a quick move upon the catching the ball (first gif above) - this is off-ball play, as opposed to the far more time-consuming live-dribble/ball-domination (2nd gif).



Ok, so AI should be considered one of the GOAT off-ball players. I agree with that. He tortured dudes running around screens, getting them tired and off-balanced.

[3ball]

Ok, so AI should be considered one of the GOAT off-ball players. I agree with that. He tortured dudes running around screens, getting them tired and off-balanced.
What I said was basic common knowledge - when a player is moving off-ball and makes a quick move upon the catch, that's an off-ball play...

AI's game included some of this, but it also included some of the longest dribbling forays of anyone.. Iverson was a heavily ball-dominant player.. This is obvious.

[ralph_i_el]

What I said was basic common knowledge - when a player is moving off-ball and makes a quick move upon the catch, that's an off-ball play...

AI's game included some of this, but it also included some of the longest dribbling forays of anyone.. Iverson was a heavily ball-dominant player.. This is obvious.

sure he had his share of ISO's, because he played the majority of his career without any offensive help. I remember the majority of his possessions involving him running around screens to get the ball, catching it with his man tired, chasing him, and off-balance....and at that point it was trivial for him to get a shot off.

I wish I had stats to compare the amount of ISO's AI used compared to MJ.