Top5 GOAT defensive forwards

[SHAQisGOAT]

Garnett
Duncan
Rodman
Pippen
Bobby Jones

That's as close as it gets to being "set in stone" as far as I'm concerned, but what you say?

[iamgine]

Withe the exception of Duncan who many says is a center.

[T_L_P]

Withe the exception of Duncan who many says is a center.

More people say he's a PF (Forward), which is why he's considered one.

If more people called him a C, that's what he'd be seen as.

[Fire Colangelo]

Honorable mentions: Ron Artest, Kirilenko

[SHAQisGOAT]

Honorable mentions: Ron Artest, Kirilenko

No doubt, those dudes were defensive beasts at their best. HM's to Bowen, Gus Johnson and DeBusschere as well... But my next choice, after those 5 I've mentioned, would probably be Dan Roundfield, who's extremely underrated and probably would've won DPOY in 1980 if it was awarded by then.

[ClipperRevival]

Withe the exception of Duncan who many says is a center.

That's what makes Duncan unique and another reason why he has a legit case for top 5 all time. Best 4 ever and probably top 5-7 all time at the 5. Few, if ever, can make that claim at 2 positions.

[ClipperRevival]

I think Jones deserves to be in the HOF. If you are one of the best ever at something, that deserves serious consideration. The guy made All-NBA or All-ABA defensive 1st team for 10 straight years (2 ABA and 8 NBA). At his peak, he gave you 15 ppg, 9 rpg, 4 apg, 2 spg, 2 bpg along with all-time great D. He also won a 6th POY and a ring. They started giving out DPOY awards right when he was starting to decline. No doubt he would've won at least a couple DPOY if this award was handed out his entire career.

[DonDadda59]

Honorable mentions: Ron Artest, Kirilenko

:applause:

And Hondo, Bowen.

[DatAsh]

Garnett
Duncan
Rodman
Pippen
Bobby Jones

That's as close as it gets to being "set in stone" as far as I'm concerned, but what you say?

I would add Mourning(if you count Duncan) over Jones, and Kirilenko after Mourning.

Then you have guys like Bowen, Debusschere, Havlicek, Battier

I would say

Teir 1
Duncan and Garnett

Tier 2
Mourning

Tier 3
Pippen, Rodman, Kirilenko

Tier 4
Jones, Bowen, Debusschere, Havlicek, Battier

[jayfan]

I'm assuming you have Ben Wallace as a center?







.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I think Jones deserves to be in the HOF. If you are one of the best ever at something, that deserves serious consideration. The guy made All-NBA or All-ABA defensive 1st team for 10 straight years (2 ABA and 8 NBA). At his peak, he gave you 15 ppg, 9 rpg, 4 apg, 2 spg, 2 bpg along with all-time great D. He also won a 6th POY and a ring. They started giving out DPOY awards right when he was starting to decline. No doubt he would've won at least a couple DPOY if this award was handed out his entire career.

Very well said.

In my mind, he definitely deserves to be in the HoF...

-One of the GOAT defensive players, doing it at an elite level on and off the ball, while also being one of the most versatile defenders ever.
-Pretty good rebounder, decent passer, and a nice while extremely efficient scorer.
-Showed major levels of heart and hustle on the court.
-In his NBA prime (for 6 straight years) was putting up like 14/7/3/2/2 in 29 MPG on top-of-the-league FG% and 77% FT, while playing elite D.
-In 10 NBA years, had 9 all-defensive selections with 8 of them being 1st team.
-Would've most likely won DPOY in '77 if the award was already given out.
-1st player to win 6moty.
-4x all-star.
-He's 13th all-time in FG%, amongst NBA players.
-Had plenty of clutch moments.
-Peaked in '77, leading the league in DRtg while 2nd in DWS and WS/48, plus 9th in PER, so on...
-Contributed plenty to a NBA championship team and one of the best squads ever.
-Played for 11 years as a pro and the teams he played for were always "successful"... He ALWAYS made the Playoffs in his career and never played for a team which won less than 47 games.
-47th all-time best in WS/48.
-He's one of the best ABA players.
-Olympic silver-medalist.
-Had a pretty good college career.
-He's also a consummate professional, a class act who receives tremendous praise - for his display on and off the court - from his peers and so forth.

...

Various players got in for "less".

[SHAQisGOAT]

I would add Mourning(if you count Duncan) over Jones, and Kirilenko after Mourning.

Then you have guys like Bowen, Debusschere, Havlicek, Battier

I would say

Teir 1
Duncan and Garnett

Tier 2
Mourning

Tier 3
Pippen, Rodman, Kirilenko

Tier 4
Jones, Bowen, Debusschere, Havlicek, Battier

I got Mourning as more of a center... Timmy's more of a PF to me, overall, but won't argue against the contrary.

There's no way that Bobby Jones is less than tier2 there, tbh, and even so, that's underrating him still... In my mind, he's definitely above (not calling it a big gap whatsoever with some, though) Kirilenko, Bowen, DeBusschere, Hondo, Battier...

Pippen and Rodman are also tier2, at least... Guess you could have KG and Duncan in their own tier, above the rest, though...



I'm assuming you have Ben Wallace as a center?







.

Yes.

[iamgine]

More people say he's a PF (Forward), which is why he's considered one.

If more people called him a C, that's what he'd be seen as.
Not sure about that. Maybe casual fans? I think more people who are in the game considers him a C.

[Town's Town]

Not sure about that. Maybe casual fans? I think more people who are in the game considers him a C.

I'd say 55% of huge fans say PF and 90% of casual.

[Odinn]

Not sure about that. Maybe casual fans? I think more people who are in the game considers him a C.
He played as PF in his prime. He's been playing as C in recent years but while considering there aren't many true Cs left in the game, it doesn't say much.
Shortly, Duncan's a PF.

[kshutts1]

What's even the difference between PF and C, the way that Duncan plays those positions? Why do we even care?

To people that say he's the GOAT PF and a top 5-7 C, so those two things boost his overall ranking.. wtf? Why? The positions are so, so close in terms of how they are played. It's not like Duncan needs to completely change his game every time he plays a different position.

[kshutts1]

Garnett
Duncan
Rodman
Pippen
Bobby Jones

That's as close as it gets to being "set in stone" as far as I'm concerned, but what you say?

Is there a recency bias? Or are we just that lucky and blessed to see four of those players during most of our lifetimes?

[GIF REACTION]

Lebron is top 5

2 time runner up DPOY

Shut down peak derrick rose and made him shoot 8%

Shut down Tony Parker in the 2013 finals

Shut down defenders from all 5 positions frequently

Notorious for his chasedown blocks and huge swats (On Tiago Splitter example)

[feyki]

Duncan is power forward but Duncan center at defence. So , Duncan doesn't count.

Pippen
Hayes
Garnett
Lebron
Havlicek

[iamgine]

[I]When asked who the Spurs would start at center, Popovich said,

[ClipperRevival]

What's even the difference between PF and C, the way that Duncan plays those positions? Why do we even care?

To people that say he's the GOAT PF and a top 5-7 C, so those two things boost his overall ranking.. wtf? Why? The positions are so, so close in terms of how they are played. It's not like Duncan needs to completely change his game every time he plays a different position.

There's a pretty big difference between a classical 4 and 5. Like classical 4 would be like Malone or Barkley or Blake Griffin. If you asked them to protect the paint, could they? No.

But Duncan can. He is the best 4 ever, which means he was able to do all of the things required of a 4, like running the floor more than 5s and play P&R or shoot from 15-17 feet.

But Duncan also had the height/length to play the 5 and protect the rim and give you a great post up game down low. So yeah, in that sense, his value is really immense and he was quite unique.

KG was another guy who could do both. But ask most 4s to play the 5 and they can't do a lot of the things that a 5 is supposed to do and vice versa. You lose almost nothing with Duncan moving to the 5. There are few guys I would take over him at the 5 if that was the position he had to play his whole career.

[kshutts1]

There's a pretty big difference between a classical 4 and 5. Like classical 4 would be like Malone or Barkley or Blake Griffin. If you asked them to protect the paint, could they? No.

But Duncan can. He is the best 4 ever, which means he was able to do all of the things required of a 4, like running the floor more than 5s and play P&R or shoot from 15-17 feet.

But Duncan also had the height/length to play the 5 and protect the rim and give you a great post up game down low. So yeah, in that sense, his value is really immense and he was quite unique.

KG was another guy who could do both. But ask most 4s to play the 5 and they can't do a lot of the things that a 5 is supposed to do and vice versa. You lose almost nothing with Duncan moving to the 5. There are few guys I would take over him at the 5 if that was the position he had to play his whole career.
Why are we using classical definitions? I'm not sure they apply any longer.

But that said, Malone definitely could protect the paint.
Rodman could, as well, but he couldn't shoot. Where does he fit?

Elton Brand, Brad Miller, Rik Smits, Patrick Ewing, Kurt Thomas, Rasheed Wallace, Taj Gibson, Anthony Davis, Demarcus Cousins, Pau Gasol, Marc Gasol... off the top of my head, these names jump out as individuals that could do everything you just mentioned. Where do they fit? With so much overlap, what is the difference, really? And, mind you, this was quick. I'm sure the list would grow and grow if I thought about it.

[ClipperRevival]

Why are we using classical definitions? I'm not sure they apply any longer.

But that said, Malone definitely could protect the paint.
Rodman could, as well, but he couldn't shoot. Where does he fit?

Elton Brand, Brad Miller, Rik Smits, Patrick Ewing, Kurt Thomas, Rasheed Wallace, Taj Gibson, Anthony Davis, Demarcus Cousins, Pau Gasol, Marc Gasol... off the top of my head, these names jump out as individuals that could do everything you just mentioned. Where do they fit? With so much overlap, what is the difference, really? And, mind you, this was quick. I'm sure the list would grow and grow if I thought about it.

:biggums:

[kshutts1]

:biggums:
I don't know what you don't understand. Malone has the perception of being a bad defender, but that was not the case. He was a fine defender. Even made a few defensive teams, iirc, and this was during the "peak" time for big men.

As for Rodman, his defense is lauded on this site daily. I don't think I need to explain that.

[ClipperRevival]

I don't know what you don't understand. Malone has the perception of being a bad defender, but that was not the case. He was a fine defender. Even made a few defensive teams, iirc, and this was during the "peak" time for big men.

As for Rodman, his defense is lauded on this site daily. I don't think I need to explain that.

Surely you must know the difference between being a good, positional defender and a "rim protector".

[kshutts1]

Surely you must know the difference between being a good, positional defender and a "rim protector".
You never said rim protector. You said paint :facepalm

[ClipperRevival]

You never said rim protector. You said paint :facepalm

:oldlol: "Protecting the paint" and "rim protector" is the same thing there buddy.

[kshutts1]

:oldlol: "Protecting the paint" and "rim protector" is the same thing there buddy.
Similar, but not the same. The paint is on the floor, and it's roughly 18 feet long and 12 feet wide (I think). The rim is off the floor, and it's 10 feet in the air. Two completely different types of defense required, though they are similar because the rim is "inside" the paint.

One, such as Karl Malone or Dennis Rodman, can "protect the paint" by cutting off drives, or defending a post player, yet not be a rim protector that can defend vertically.

[ClipperRevival]

Similar, but not the same. The paint is on the floor, and it's roughly 18 feet long and 12 feet wide (I think). The rim is off the floor, and it's 10 feet in the air. Two completely different types of defense required, though they are similar because the rim is "inside" the paint.

One, such as Karl Malone or Dennis Rodman, can "protect the paint" by cutting off drives, or defending a post player, yet not be a rim protector that can defend vertically.

They are the same thing. This is layman stuff we are arguing.

[kshutts1]

They are the same thing. This is layman stuff we are arguing.
Come on. You're smarter than this. Recognize the difference, admit that your prior statement was not totally correct. But I don't have anything more to say. I've made my point, and it's valid.

[bizil]

I think Jones deserves to be in the HOF. If you are one of the best ever at something, that deserves serious consideration. The guy made All-NBA or All-ABA defensive 1st team for 10 straight years (2 ABA and 8 NBA). At his peak, he gave you 15 ppg, 9 rpg, 4 apg, 2 spg, 2 bpg along with all-time great D. He also won a 6th POY and a ring. They started giving out DPOY awards right when he was starting to decline. No doubt he would've won at least a couple DPOY if this award was handed out his entire career.

Great point about Bobby Jones! In a sense, I think he was a precursor to guys like Kirilenko and Josh Smith. Combo forwards who were freakish athletic AND could defend damn near any position well. And could also chip in 15 points, 8-9 boards. Plus were underrated for their passing ability. I also think Jones is worthy of HOF induction as well. Especially considering he was a part of that legendary Sixers squad that was a contender for several years. And of course eventually won a title in '83.

[rmt]

There's a pretty big difference between a classical 4 and 5. Like classical 4 would be like Malone or Barkley or Blake Griffin. If you asked them to protect the paint, could they? No.

But Duncan can. He is the best 4 ever, which means he was able to do all of the things required of a 4, like running the floor more than 5s and play P&R or shoot from 15-17 feet.

But Duncan also had the height/length to play the 5 and protect the rim and give you a great post up game down low. So yeah, in that sense, his value is really immense and he was quite unique.

KG was another guy who could do both. But ask most 4s to play the 5 and they can't do a lot of the things that a 5 is supposed to do and vice versa. You lose almost nothing with Duncan moving to the 5. There are few guys I would take over him at the 5 if that was the position he had to play his whole career.

On defense, it doesn't matter whether he's playing PF or C, he does the same thing - protect the paint and rim. It's on offense that he is unique - can play back to the basket center or jump shooting PF. He allows for great flexibility in a team's big man roster as he can switch from center beside Diaw, Bonner, McDyess, Horry and soon-to-be Aldridge to PF beside DRob, Rasho, Nazr, Rose, K. Thomas, Blair, Splitter, Oberto, Elson, and Baynes within a game. TD's ability to play both positions allowed the Spurs to stay below the luxury tax a lot with the cheap, veteran big men they recruited.

[bizil]

Garnett
Duncan
Rodman
Pippen
Bobby Jones

That's as close as it gets to being "set in stone" as far as I'm concerned, but what you say?

Yep u can't really argue that list at all! And they were all great in different ways. KG is flat out the most versatile 7 footer ever. And arguably the most versatile player of all time. A huge part of that was being able to defend big swingman, SF, PF, and C well. To have that kind of versatility was EPIC!

Duncan brought a dominant 7 footer's skillset to the PF position. So he could control the paint better than any PF ever. PLUS he could guard the prototype PF's well in his younger days.

I think Rodman overall is the most versatile defender ever. Probably comes the closest to LEGIT guarding all five positions well.

I believe Pippen is the greatest perimeter defender ever. Can guard PG, SG, and SF GREAT! And at times can even guard the PF. But when it comes to the pure perimeter players, Pip is the best.

And in terms of defense, Jones was likely the most versatile defender of all time before the guys like KG, Rodman, and Pippen came around. His numbers and all around game were a precursor to guys like Kirilenko and Josh Smith. I think Jones REDEFINED basketball on the defensive end under the radar.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Is there a recency bias? Or are we just that lucky and blessed to see four of those players during most of our lifetimes?

Recency bias from whom? Me? Not at all, just think that that list couldn't be any different tbh, so yea, call us lucky or somethin...

In this post...


No doubt, those dudes were defensive beasts at their best. HM's to Bowen, Gus Johnson and DeBusschere as well... But my next choice, after those 5 I've mentioned, would probably be Dan Roundfield, who's extremely underrated and probably would've won DPOY in 1980 if it was awarded by then.

... I forgot about Elvin Hayes though, he'd most likely be my #6 on this list.

KG won DPOY, Rodman has 2 of them, Duncan should've definitely won at least 1, Pippen should probably have won 1, Bobby Jones would've most likely got it in 1977 if it was already given out, Artest got 1... Who else? You got Hayes as the best choice in 1975, Roundfield a top2 choice in 1980, Gus Johnson would've been under heavy consideration for a couple of years, Hondo got at least a year amongst the VERY best candidates, DeBusschere something close, Bowen was up there plenty...
Take that for what is worth though.

My top10 would probably be Garnett, Duncan, Rodman, Pippen, Bobby, Hayes, Roundfield, and 3 out of DeBusschere/Gus/Bowen/Artest/Hondo/Kirilenko.

[feyki]

Top 10 from defrat( per game career) ;


1- Gar Heard - 95.3

2- G.McGinnis - 97.3

3- Elvin Hayes - 97.36

4- Steve Mix - 98.72

5- Kevin Garnett - 99.03

6- Bobby Jones - 99.37

7- Rick Barry - 99.44

8- Dennis Rodman - 100.26

9- Bob Dandridge - 100.48

10- Doctor J. - 100.89

But 1970's low offensive ratings to be overrate 1970's players for defrat.



Top 10 DWS ( total career) ;

1- Kevin Garnett - 90.79

2- Elvin Hayes - 83.65

3- John Havlicek - 74.09

4- Scottie Pippen - 67.29

5- Buck Williams - 61.79

6- Paul Pierce - 61.39

7- Shawn Marion - 61.27

8- Larry Bird - 59.03

9- Dennis Rodman - 54.46

10- Lebron James - 54.40

.

[ClipperRevival]

On defense, it doesn't matter whether he's playing PF or C, he does the same thing - protect the paint and rim. It's on offense that he is unique - can play back to the basket center or jump shooting PF. He allows for great flexibility in a team's big man roster as he can switch from center beside Diaw, Bonner, McDyess, Horry and soon-to-be Aldridge to PF beside DRob, Rasho, Nazr, Rose, K. Thomas, Blair, Splitter, Oberto, Elson, and Baynes within a game. TD's ability to play both positions allowed the Spurs to stay below the luxury tax a lot with the cheap, veteran big men they recruited.

No, he was unique on both ends because not all great 4s were rim protectors.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Top 10 from defrat( per game career) ;


1- Gar Heard - 95.3

2- G.McGinnis - 97.3

3- Elvin Hayes - 97.36

4- Steve Mix - 98.72

5- Kevin Garnett - 99.03

6- Bobby Jones - 99.37

7- Rick Barry - 99.44

8- Dennis Rodman - 100.26

9- Bob Dandridge - 100.48

10- Doctor J. - 100.89

But 1970's low offensive ratings to be overrate 1970's players for defrat.



Top 10 DWS ( total career) ;

1- Kevin Garnett - 90.79 - 1424 games

2- Elvin Hayes - 83.65 - 1303 games

3- John Havlicek - 74.09 - 1270 games

4- Scottie Pippen - 67.29 - 1178 games

5- Buck Williams - 61.79 - 1307 games

6- Paul Pierce - 61.39 - 1250 games

7- Shawn Marion - 61.27 - 1163 games

8- Larry Bird - 59.03 - 897 games

9- Dennis Rodman - 54.46 - 911 games

10- Lebron James - 54.40 - 911 games

.

Yes, the 70's have the lowest ORtg's (officially though, because we only have estimates for the 60's) but that also means the best DRtg's... So, which is it? Worse offense or better defense? Very subjective, that's why we can't go ahead and say stuff like "1970's low offensive ratings to be overrate 1970's players for defrat".


When talking about career's DWS we have to mention the number of games played though, which I've added above.
Only Bird, Rodman and LeBron are there, on that 2nd list, with less than 1000 games... Only Bird with less than 900, another 'indication' of his very underrated defense.

List you've posted is missing some players though...
For DWS it doesn't include Duncan (more of a PF to me) with 102.76 in 1331 games, Karl Malone with 92.41 in 1476, Oakley with 63.34 in 1282, Rasheed Wallace with 57.12 in 1109, also Dolph Schayes and Clifford Robinson...
It goes like:

1 - Duncan

2 - Malone

3 - Garnett

4 - Hayes

5 - Hondo

6 - Pippen

7 - Oakley

8 - Buck

9 - Pierce

10 - Marion

[feyki]

Yes, the 70's have the lowest ORtg's (officially though, because we only have estimates for the 60's) but that also means the best DRtg's... So, which is it? Worse offense or better defense? Very subjective, that's why we can't go ahead and say stuff like "1970's low offensive ratings to be overrate 1970's players for defrat".


When talking about career's DWS we have to mention the number of games played though, which I've added above.
Only Bird, Rodman and LeBron are there, on that 2nd list, with less than 1000 games... Only Bird with less than 900, another 'indication' of his very underrated defense.

List you've posted is missing some players though...
For DWS it doesn't include Duncan (more of a PF to me) with 102.76 in 1331 games, Karl Malone with 92.41 in 1476, Oakley with 63.34 in 1282, Rasheed Wallace with 57.12 in 1109, also Dolph Schayes and Clifford Robinson...
It goes like:

1 - Duncan

2 - Malone

3 - Garnett

4 - Hayes

5 - Hondo

6 - Pippen

7 - Oakley

8 - Buck

9 - Pierce

10 - Marion

Yes , I agreed for "70''s defence better than others(60's and 50's don't calculate) " . But I think individual defensive talents(cause one era more defensive , another era more offensive) changed from era's . So , If we calculate the individual defensive talents , change the era's dynamics.

I don't count Duncan,Karl,Dolph,Rasheed cause them more rim protector than forward at defensive side.

[Pointguard]

Garnett
Duncan
Rodman
Pippen
Bobby Jones

That's as close as it gets to being "set in stone" as far as I'm concerned, but what you say?
Yeah, strange that its a clear list. Hard to do that in basketball.

[inclinerator]

lebron james is up there