How close are Kobe, Duncan, and Shaq all-time?

[CavaliersFTW]

And at this point in time which are ranked higher?

[Prime_Shaq]

Shaq
Duncan
Kobe

[KembaWalker]

From any rational NBA fan's point of view there really isn't a wrong answer, they are that close to each other

An argument can be made for any of the 3 being put above/below the others

[Akrazotile]

Duncan/Shaq












































..

[Akrazotile]

others



























..

[Akrazotile]

.



















.














Prime TMac




































CosBe

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

And at this point in time which are ranked higher?

depends on how your rank it

peak for peak,

I put Shaq above everyone all time other than Jordan in terms of his peak, but I really dont see much seperating peaks themselves. imo, especially the gap from 1-4 (which I have Jordan first, Shaq second, and Lebron and Wilt is some order, though I rate Wilts 67 season much higher than his other seasons. I swear to god lets keep this on topic lol).

Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
for Peaks.

Shaq at his peak was a legitimate ATG level defensive anchor, while offensively, he was obviously, well, we know.

Duncan in 03 actually had a similar offensive rapm to any Kobe season. his offense is generally more of a heartbeat than a go-to scorer. his defense puts him way ahead of kobe.


career wise/All time wise


Duncan (I rate him VERY high in teh Goat rankings though).
Shaq
Kobe

[ClipperRevival]

Duncan (top 5ish)

Shaq

Kobe

[Lebronxrings]

shaq









duncan




k



o



b



e

[Cold soul]

From any rational NBA fan's point of view there really isn't a wrong answer, they are that close to each other

An argument can be made for any of the 3 being put above/below the others

Agreed. All three are interchangeable for majority of people that rank them. I can only speak for myself all three are in same tier as far as players go, but careers I give Duncan and Kobe edge over Shaq for longevity reasons and taking care of themselves better not showing up to training camp fat and out of shape.

[Odinn]

Ranking or rating wise?

Ranking wise;
Shaq has a great case to be called top 5 ever due to goat level peak.
Duncan has an average case to be called top 5 ever due to player&team accomplishments.
Kobe's case to be called top 5 isn't strong.

Rating wise;
Peak/prime play: I think Duncan is the middle of Shaq and Kobe. If Shaq was 98 out of 100, Duncan was 95 and Kobe was like 92-93.

[dhsilv]

Peak shaq is well above the other two. Career Duncan has a significant edge and assuming he stays healthy is adding to it. Kobe has had a slightly better career than shaq imo, though I might give that overall head to head to shaq due to his peak being far better than Kobe's

BTW nobody gives Duncan's 02 season nearly enough credit. That team was god awful and while the lakers beat the spurs fairly easily it wasn't like Duncan had ANYONE else to score or shoot the ball that year.

MJ
Kareem
Magic
Russel (I guess...never know what to do with him)
Duncan
Lebron (place holder until he makes the finals again/has MVP numbers and then he moves up and I also hate him with a passion)
Bird
Wilt
Moses
Kobe/West (not picking)
Hakeem
Shaq
Oscar

A nice lucky top 13.

Barkley and KG should be in the top 15 but darn they just couldn't win :( And thus I stop at 13 because I don't really want to rank guys like Baylor...

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Duncan (5th for me)

Shaq (6th/7th)

Kobe (10th)

[outbreak]

Shaq
Duncan

Hakeem
West








































Kobe
Lebron

[SouBeachTalents]

Peak shaq is well above the other two. Career Duncan has a significant edge and assuming he stays healthy is adding to it. Kobe has had a slightly better career than shaq imo, though I might give that overall head to head to shaq due to his peak being far better than Kobe's

BTW nobody gives Duncan's 02 season nearly enough credit. That team was god awful and while the lakers beat the spurs fairly easily it wasn't like Duncan had ANYONE else to score or shoot the ball that year.

MJ
Kareem
Magic
Russel (I guess...never know what to do with him)
Duncan
Lebron (place holder until he makes the finals again/has MVP numbers and then he moves up and I also hate him with a passion)
Bird
Wilt
Moses
Kobe/West (not picking)
Hakeem
Shaq
Oscar

A nice lucky top 13.

Barkley and KG should be in the top 15 but darn they just couldn't win :( And thus I stop at 13 because I don't really want to rank guys like Baylor...

That'd be my top 13 as well. But I don't see Moses' argument for being ahead of Kobe, Hakeem, and Shaq

[dhsilv]

That'd be my top 13 as well. But I don't see Moses' argument for being ahead of Kobe, Hakeem, and Shaq

3 MVP's. Best modern era rebounder. And most importantly because for once someone needed to overrate him as there really isn't a strong argument though at his best I got him over Kobe and Hakeem. And I'll be honest I'd have to think about him over Hakeem career, those two are really close imo.

[kennethgriffin]

tier 1

jordan
kareem
russell

all can be argued for #1

tier 2

Magic
Kobe
Duncan

all can be argued for #4

tier 3

shaq
bird
hakeem
wilt

all can be argued for # 7

tier 4

lebron
oscar
west
moses

all can be argued for #11

tier 5

baylor
dr J
pettit
mikan

all can be argued for #15

tier 6

havlicek
karl
garnett
dirk
barkley

all can be argued for #19

tier 7

stockton
wade
pippen
isiah
robinson

all can be argued for #24

[kennethgriffin]

in the end its all opinion. and majority public opinion rules all


http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/post/_/id/11090247/all-nba-players





1.Michael Jordan

2.Magic Johnson

3.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

4.Wilt Chamberlain

5.Larry Bird

6.Bill Russell

7.Kobe Bryant

8.Tim Duncan

9.LeBron James

10.Oscar Robertson

11.Shaquille O'Neal

12.Hakeem Olajuwon




in the end. lebron will more than likely be top 10. and kobe will be above him, duncan and shaq when its all said and done because thats the way the world sees things


period

[TheBigVeto]

Not close.
Duncan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shaq >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kobe

[Marchesk]

Closer to each other than the three of them are to Wilt.

[KembaWalker]

in the end its all opinion. and majority public opinion rules all


http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/post/_/id/11090247/all-nba-players


Jordan's #1 votes though....19,960

Next highest is LeBron with 1,976 (lolol)

MJ :pimp:

[BlakFrankWhite]

Duncan
Shaq
Kobe

[Timmy D for MVP]

Duncan
Shaq




Kobe.

Duncan and Shaq are fairly close (7 and 8 on my All time), but I think both are a tier above Kobe. It's crazy to think but rational lists will soon start having Kobe outside the top 10 and people will look at it and go: "yeah... that's a valid list."

[ArbitraryWater]

Never understand how one could make a shitty topic like this.. gotta have the intentions of baiting.

[bdreason]

7. Duncan
8. Shaq
9. Hakeem
10. Kobe

[Coach Eddie]

They are all pretty close.

Duncan around #5, Shaq about 6 or 7, and Kobe around 9.

[Coach Eddie]

in the end its all opinion. and majority public opinion rules all


http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/post/_/id/11090247/all-nba-players





1.Michael Jordan

2.Magic Johnson

3.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

4.Wilt Chamberlain

5.Larry Bird

6.Bill Russell

7.Kobe Bryant

8.Tim Duncan

9.LeBron James

10.Oscar Robertson

11.Shaquille O'Neal

12.Hakeem Olajuwon




in the end. lebron will more than likely be top 10. and kobe will be above him, duncan and shaq when its all said and done because thats the way the world sees things


period

Damn, a Lakers bias and Kobe still only #7. Imagine Duncan with a "majority rules" vote if he were a flashy playing Laker.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Closer to each other than the three of them are to Wilt.

Not even worth a response. And I usually rank wilt higher than 2 of these guys.

[feyki]

Duncan - 7

Shaquille - 11

Kobe - 9-10 w/Hakeem .

[longhornfan1234]

Duncan
Shaq
Kobe

[longhornfan1234]

in the end its all opinion. and majority public opinion rules all


http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/post/_/id/11090247/all-nba-players





1.Michael Jordan

2.Magic Johnson

3.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

4.Wilt Chamberlain

5.Larry Bird

6.Bill Russell

7.Kobe Bryant

8.Tim Duncan

9.LeBron James

10.Oscar Robertson

11.Shaquille O'Neal

12.Hakeem Olajuwon




in the end. lebron will more than likely be top 10. and kobe will be above him, duncan and shaq when its all said and done because thats the way the world sees things


period


Oscar over Shaq? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[HOoopCityJones]

Ain't it funny what one sidekick ring did for Duncan's legacy? Pre 2014 no one would've said Duncan was better than Kobe.

Averaged damn near the same stats for their last and first rings respectively yet ni99as wanna act like it's a wash.

[rmt]

Ain't it funny what one sidekick ring did for Duncan's legacy? Pre 2014 no one would've said Duncan was better than Kobe.

Averaged damn near the same stats for their last and first rings respectively yet ni99as wanna act like it's a wash.

Duncan 2012 - present:

2012-13 (age 37)

Reg Season 17.8 pts / 9.9 rebs / 2.7 asst / 2.7 blks 50.2% 24.4 PER 8.3 WS 4.1 BPM 3.2 VORP 107 ORtg 95 DRtg all-nba 1st, all-defensive 2nd

Playoffs 18.1 pts / 10.2 rebs / 1.9 asst / 1.6 blk 47% 21.3 PER 2.5 WS 2.1 BPM 0.7 VORP 106 ORtg 98 DRtg


2013-14 (age 38)

Reg Season 15.1 pts / 9.7 rebs / 3 asst / 1.9 blk 49% 21.3 PER 7.4 WS 3.2 BPM 2.8 VORP 106 ORtg 98 DRtg

Playoffs 16.3 pts / 9.2 rebs / 2 asst / 1.3 blk 52.3% 21.1 PER 3.2 WS 4.4 BPM 1.2 VORP 120 ORtg 104 DRtg


2014-15 (age 39)

Reg Season 13.9 pts / 9.1 rebs / 3 asst / 2 blk 51.2% 22.6 PER 9.6 WS 5.5 BPM 4.2 VORP 113 ORtg 97 DRtg all-nba 3rd, all-defensive 2nd

Playoffs 17.9 pts / 11.1 rebs / 3.3 asst / 1.4 blk 58.9% 24.2 PER 1.2 WS 7.7 BPM 0.6 VORP 125 ORtg 102 DRtg

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Ain't it funny what one sidekick ring did for Duncan's legacy? Pre 2014 no one would've said Duncan was better than Kobe.

Averaged damn near the same stats for their last and first rings respectively yet ni99as wanna act like it's a wash.

On the contrary dude. MANY had Duncan over Kobe pre 2014. Kobe has always been a fringe Top 10 player while Duncan's career is right there with Shaq, Hakeem and Bird's.

One thing I don't agree with is Duncan's 2014 "sidekick ring" catapulting him into top 3-5 status. Not sure his play warrants that, especially in a league where bigs are far less prevalent and guys like Shaq, Kareem, Wilt, and Hakeem were very clearly better.

Removing team accomplishments, KG and DRob in their primes are right there with Duncan, IMO.

[kennethgriffin]

Damn, a Lakers bias and Kobe still only #7. Imagine Duncan with a "majority rules" vote if he were a flashy playing Laker.


then why did people vote boring old russell ahead of kobe?

the celtics barely have a fan base these days and most of them dont even know who russell is. and his fans dont even own a computer or know how to use one

[kennethgriffin]

Oscar over Shaq? :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


shaq is a bit overrated


journey man

swept like 7 times

only success without kobe = 13ppg finals title 3rd leading scorer

fat and lazy on defense most of his career

0 time first team defense

was a career loser till he got an elite top 5 all time teammate

was raw till the year 2000 ( getting dominated by hakeem, rodman, rookie duncan before then )

was past his prime after the year 2002 ( got fat in 2003, went up to 350 pounds )


so a 3 year prime when he could actually be alpha/dominant?

meh...

kobe was a dominant alpha taking over playoff games and sh*tting on prime legends from 2000 wcf till 2010 nba finals





shaq had a nice peak. thats about it

hes a peak player. not a career player

[ShawkFactory]

Incredibly close. You could argue any of the three over any of the other and it wouldn't be remotely ridiculous (depending on which argument you choose to use)

[RidonKs]

duncan

bryant
o'neal

[kennethgriffin]

peaks

#1 shaq
#2 kobe
#3 duncan

success

#1 Duncan
#2 Kobe
#3 Shaq

skills

#1 kobe
#2 Duncan
#3 Shaq

overall accolades

#1 kobe
#2 Duncan
#3 Shaq

popularity

#1 kobe
#2 Shaq
#3 Duncan

records

#1 kobe
#2 shaq
#3 Duncan

stats

#1 kobe
#2 shaq
#3 Duncan

[Levity]

from articles and interviews ive seen, it seems that kobe and shaq are pretty close these days, at least compared to a decade ago. theyve even formally apologized to each other for past issues. not sure if kobe and duncan are close, but im sure theres a mutual respect for one another. i dont see shaq getting along with duncan, though. he doesnt seem like the type to get along with his competition.

[SOD 21]

Here is a career comparison for each of these three players:

Tim Duncan - 5/6 titles, two MVP's, three final MVP's, one all-star MVP, 15 time all-Star, 15 All NBA (10, 3, 2), 15 All Defensive teams (8,7), 24.5 PER and 201 total win-shares.

Kobe Bryant - 5/7 titles, one MVP, two final MVP's, four all-star MVP, 17 time all-star, 15 All NBA (11, 2, 2), 12 All Defensive teams (9,3), 23.3 PER and 174.1 win-shares.

Shaquille O'Neal - 4/6 titles, one MVP, three final MVP's, three time all-star MVP, 15 time all-star, 14 All NBA (8, 2, 4), three All Defensive teams (0, 3), 26.4 PER and 181.7 win-shares.

[SOD 21]

Here is a career comparison for each of these three players:

Tim Duncan - 5/6 titles, two MVP's, three final MVP's, one all-star MVP, 15 time all-Star, 15 All NBA (10, 3, 2), 15 All Defensive teams (8,7), 24.5 PER and 201 total win-shares.

Kobe Bryant - 5/7 titles, one MVP, two final MVP's, four all-star MVP, 17 time all-star, 15 All NBA (11, 2, 2), 12 All Defensive teams (9,3), 23.3 PER and 174.1 win-shares.

Shaquille O'Neal - 4/6 titles, one MVP, three final MVP's, three time all-star MVP, 15 time all-star, 14 All NBA (8, 2, 4), three All Defensive teams (0, 3), 26.4 PER and 181.7 win-shares.

Personally, I have TD ranked sixth best all-time, Shaq is eighth and Kobe is ninth.

[kennethgriffin]

Here is a career comparison for each of these three players:

Tim Duncan - 5/6 titles, two MVP's, three final MVP's, one all-star MVP, 15 time all-Star, 15 All NBA (10, 3, 2), 15 All Defensive teams (8,7), 24.5 PER and 201 total win-shares.

Kobe Bryant - 5/7 titles, one MVP, two final MVP's, four all-star MVP, 17 time all-star, 15 All NBA (11, 2, 2), 12 All Defensive teams (9,3), 23.3 PER and 174.1 win-shares.

Shaquille O'Neal - 4/6 titles, one MVP, three final MVP's, three time all-star MVP, 15 time all-star, 14 All NBA (8, 2, 4), three All Defensive teams (0, 3), 26.4 PER and 181.7 win-shares.


kobe has more of everything except mvps





- only player to win multiple titles without a legendary sidekick (Pau Gasol 85th all time HOF rating)
- only player to outscore a team by himself (62-61 vs Dallas)
- only player to score 80+ in the modern era (since ABA merger)
- only player to score 50+ for 5 consecutive games in the modern era
- only player to start or make 17 consecutive all-star games
- only player in nba history with 30,000 points and 6,000 assists
- all time record for all NBA 1st teams (11)
- all time record for all defensive 1st teams (9)
- all time record for all star game mvps (4)
- all time record for three pointers made in a game (12)
- all time best International win% (100%)
- all time Guard scoring champion ( 32,482 points )
- all time most game winning shots (36)
- all time most 50+ win playoff teams beatin (24)
- all time most allstar points (280)
- youngest NBA allstar (19 years)
- youngest 1st team all defense (21 years)
- youngest dunk contest champion (18 years)
- youngest nba starter (17 years)
- 2nd most 30 point games (425)
- 2nd most 60 point games (5)
- 3rd mot 50 point games (24)
- 3rd most 40 point games (119)
- 3rd most points ever scored in the playoffs (5,640)
- Sporting News Player of the decade ( 2000's )
- Dime Magazine Player of the decade ( 2000's )
- TNT Player of the decade ( 2000's )
- 1 NBA MVP
- 2 NBA finals MVP's
- 2 olympic gold medals
- 5 NBA championships


Kobe Bryant:
30+ point games: 425
40+ point games: 119
50+ point games: 24
60+ point games: 5
70+ point games: 1
80+ point games: 1



Tim Duncan:
30+ point games: 120
40+ point games: 5
50+ point games: 1
60+ point games: 0
70+ point games: 0
80+ point games: 0



a) Kobe has basically as many 40 point games as Duncan has 30 point games

b) Kobe has as many 60 point games as Duncan has 40 point games

c) Kobe has as many 80 point games as Duncan has 50 point games

d) Kobes 2 quarter record ( 55 ) is better than Duncans career high ( 53 )

e) Kobe has nearly as many consecutive 50+ point games ( 4 ) as Duncan has total 40+ point games in his career ( 5 )

f) Kobe has more consecutive 40+ point games ( 9 ) than Duncan has total 40+ point games in his entire lifespan ( 5 )



"i thought it was a mistake actually, i saw 81 and i was like nah thats not right. i thought it was a typo definitely a typo. but i was amazed. people dont even give the 60 points the credit it deserves. or how hard it is to score 40. that doesnt get the credit it deserves. but to hear someone do 81 is above and beyond anything i could ever imagine." - Tim Duncan



and before people argue defense:

Kobe Bryant = 9 time first team all defense ( can make G/G )
Tim Duncan = 8 time first team all defense ( can make F/F/C ... literally had 17 more chances to make it )



and before people argue winning:

Kobe Bryant 4-2 career playoff series record vs Tim Duncan




and before people argue MVPs:

Tim Duncan and Steve Nash = 2
Kobe Bryant and Derrick Rose = 1


and before people argue finals MVP's:

playoff averages

Duncan: (P/R/A)
1999 - 23/11/2 ( With HOF Robinson )
2003 - 24/15/5 ( with HOF Robinspn/Parker )
2005 - 23/12/2 ( with HOF Parker/Ginobili )
2007 - 22/11/3 ( with HOF Parker/Ginobili )
2014 - 16/9/2 ( with HOF Parker/Ginobili and FMVP Leonard )

Kobe: (P/R/A)
2000 - 21/5/5 ( with HOF Shaq )
2001 - 29/7/6 ( with HOF shaq )
2002 - 27/6/5 ( with HOF shaq )
2009 - 30/5/5 ( with HOF pau )
2010 - 30/6/5 ( with HOF pau )



"i think hes the most talented player on both ends of the floor" - Gregg Popovich ( referring to Kobe Bryant )


98 popovich/robinson 22/11/3 avrey/vinny/elliott/jackson/person
99 popovich/robinson 16/10/3 avrey/elliott/ellie/jackson/kerr/kersey/daniels
00 popovich/robinson 18/10/2 avery/ellie/porter/jackson/rose/daniels/elliott
01 popovich/robinson 15/9/2 anderson/daniels/elliott/rose/porter/avery/ferry
02 popovich/robinson 13/8/2 parker/smith/rose/daniels/bowen/porter/jackson
03 popovich/parker 15/5/3 robinson/ginobili/jackson/rose/bowen/smith/willis
04 popovich/parker 15/6/3 ginobili/hedo/rasho/rose/bowen/horry/mercer
05 popovich/parker 17/6/4 ginobili/glen/bruce/brent/rose/nazr/horry/beno
06 popovich/parker 19/6/3 ginobili/finley/bowen/nazr/brent/exel/horry/beno
07 popovich/parker 19/6/3 ginobili/finley/barry/white/bowen/horry/beno
08 popovich/parker 19/6/3 ginobili/finley/barry/bowen/oberto/bonner/vaughn
09 popovich/parker 22/7/3 ginobili/mason/gooden/finley/hill/bonner/bowen
10 popovich/parker 16/6/3 ginobili/hill/jefferson/blair/mason/mcdeyes/finley
11 popovich/parker 18/7/3 ginobili/hill/jefferson/neal/blair/mcdeyes/green
12 popovich/parker 18/8/3 ginobili/mills/neal/blair/splitter/jefferson/green
13 popovich/parker 20/8/3 Leonard/ginobili/green/splitter/neal/jackson/diaw
14 popovich/parker 17/6/2 Leonard/ginobili/marco/mills/diaw/green/splitter
15 popovich/parker 15/5/2 Leonard/ginobili/green/marco/diaw/splitter/mills

always

1. legendary coach
2. top 50 all time team mate
3. stacked roster


5 titles/6 finals




while kobe bryant


1997 - no legendary coach
1998 - no legendary coach
1999 - no legendary coach
2000 ( had all 3 )
2001 - no stacked roster
2002 - no stacked roster
2003 - no stacked roster
2004 ( had all 3 )
2005 - no legendary coach, no top 50 all time sidekick, no stacked roster
2006 - no top 50 all time sidekick, no stacked roster
2008 - no top 50 all time sidekick, no stacked roster
2009 - no top 50 all time sidekick, no stacked roster
2010 - no top 50 all time sidekick
2011 - no top 50 all time sidekick
2012 - no legendary coach, no top 50 all time sidekick
2013 - no legendary coach, no top 50 all time sidekick
2014 - no legendary coach, no top 50 all time sidekick, no stacked roster
2015 - no legendary coach, no top 50 all time sidekick, no stacked roster

= 5 titles/7 finals

[kennethgriffin]

a silly espn sports writer vote does NOT overcome all that

[AnaheimLakers24]

Kobe and duncan are in the same tier as bird and magic
snaq is below them

[Dbrog]

I mean, they are all within 5 spots of each other...all top10 ever. It doesn't really get much closer in terms of rating. We all make a huge deal out of it on this forum like there's oceans of distance between these guys, but there's not really. The fact is they are better than almost everyone in NBA history...

[dyna]

Shaq
Duncan
Kobe

[Cold soul]

Kobe
Duncan
Shaq

[JellyBean]

Shaq
Kobe
Duncan

[The Iron Fist]

Kobe doesn't have 2 FMVPs on his team. Duncan does. Kobe has more finals wins than shaq.
Kobe>Duncan>Shaq

[Wade's Rings]

Kobe doesn't have 2 FMVPs on his team. Duncan does. Kobe has more finals wins than shaq.
Kobe>Duncan>Shaq

:biggums:

[Cold soul]

Kobe doesn't have 2 FMVPs on his team. Duncan does. Kobe has more finals wins than shaq.
Kobe>Duncan>Shaq

What lol? Yes, he does.... :facepalm

[Prime_Shaq]

Peak shaq is well above the other two. Career Duncan has a significant edge and assuming he stays healthy is adding to it. Kobe has had a slightly better career than shaq imo, though I might give that overall head to head to shaq due to his peak being far better than Kobe's

BTW nobody gives Duncan's 02 season nearly enough credit. That team was god awful and while the lakers beat the spurs fairly easily it wasn't like Duncan had ANYONE else to score or shoot the ball that year.

MJ
Kareem
Magic
Russel (I guess...never know what to do with him)
Duncan
Lebron (place holder until he makes the finals again/has MVP numbers and then he moves up and I also hate him with a passion)
Bird
Wilt
Moses
Kobe/West (not picking)
Hakeem
Shaq
Oscar

A nice lucky top 13.

Barkley and KG should be in the top 15 but darn they just couldn't win :( And thus I stop at 13 because I don't really want to rank guys like Baylor...
Is that in order? Shaq as #12?

[dhsilv]

Is that in order? Shaq as #12?

It was thought out in about 5 minutes, so I'm not going to fight over it, but yeah I think that's about right for Shaq.

He just missed so many games in his prime, was a liability at times due to free throws and I just think others had more complete careers. His peak is as good as anyone and the guy for a stretch was so dominate that it was unreal.....2000 shaq was about as good as it gets in basketball. Still I'm not seeing him in the top 10 if we're talking career unless I were to add more value to peak play and perhaps I am under valuing peak play in how I rank players.

Career VORP 15th (doesn't go back to under values historical players)
Career Winshare 11th
Box plus minus 17th
PER 3rd
MVP Award Share 7th
4 titles
1 MVP
3 defensive team awards (which is another reason I'm not AS big on him)

Clearly his numbers justify moving him up higher than 12...

That said if you had him 8th or something more around there, I'd not argue over it. He doesn't imo have a case for top 5 and I can't see him over Bird Wilt Duncan Russel Kareem MJ or Magic under really any scenario.

[Prime_Shaq]

It was thought out in about 5 minutes, so I'm not going to fight over it, but yeah I think that's about right for Shaq.

He just missed so many games in his prime, was a liability at times due to free throws and I just think others had more complete careers. His peak is as good as anyone and the guy for a stretch was so dominate that it was unreal.....2000 shaq was about as good as it gets in basketball. Still I'm not seeing him in the top 10 if we're talking career unless I were to add more value to peak play and perhaps I am under valuing peak play in how I rank players.

Career VORP 15th (doesn't go back to under values historical players)
Career Winshare 11th
Box plus minus 17th
PER 3rd
MVP Award Share 7th
4 titles
1 MVP
3 defensive team awards (which is another reason I'm not AS big on him)

Clearly his numbers justify moving him up higher than 12...

That said if you had him 8th or something more around there, I'd not argue over it. He doesn't imo have a case for top 5 and I can't see him over Bird Wilt Duncan Russel Kareem MJ or Magic under really any scenario.
Shaq's peak alone solidifies him as Top 10 all-time. I don't have him in my Top 5 either but I think without a doubt he's Top 10.

[dhsilv]

Shaq's peak alone solidifies him as Top 10 all-time. I don't have him in my Top 5 either but I think without a doubt he's Top 10.

60+ missed games in his prime just really kills it for me. I know Duncan had some issues in his prime (04 and 05 missing games and then the foot issue on 06 where he played but wasn't himself) too, but shaq's whole case is his prime. And again I might not value prime as much as some others. Or I don't like shaq? Who knows what the subconscious thinks. We are splitting hairs between 12th and say 8th aren't we? Both are absurdly good!

[Vaniiiia]

Why do people continue to lump in Kobe with the all-time greats?

I don't give a shit if you compare Kobe to Iverson or Melo.

But stop putting his name next to top 10 greats ike Duncan, Shaq, and LeBron... shit is mad disrespectful. He ain't close to these guys. Never was.

[GoSpursGo1984]

Why do people continue to lump in Kobe with the all-time greats?

I don't give a shit if you compare Kobe to Iverson or Melo.

But stop putting his name next to top 10 greats ike Duncan, Shaq, and LeBron... shit is mad disrespectful. He ain't close to these guys. Never was.

Trolls gonna troll. he he may not be above them but he is certainly near them. When Shaq left the Lakers that is where Kobe separated himself from Shaq. Kobe won multiple championships where Shaq went from team to team and won a Championship as the second best player in Miami.

[dhsilv]

Why do people continue to lump in Kobe with the all-time greats?

I don't give a shit if you compare Kobe to Iverson or Melo.

But stop putting his name next to top 10 greats ike Duncan, Shaq, and LeBron... shit is mad disrespectful. He ain't close to these guys. Never was.

Length of his career, awards, all time place in playoff and career point scored. Like him or not or even respect his stats, he's got a resume for the all time list just do to being an above average all start for 15 or so years.

His prime however might be the most overrated of any player in any sport ever. The numbers just don't agree with the love.

[Vaniiiia]

Trolls gonna troll. he he may not be above them but he is certainly near them. When Shaq left the Lakers that is where Kobe separated himself from Shaq. Kobe won multiple championships where Shaq went from team to team and won a Championship as the second best player in Miami.
How the **** did that separate him from Shaq? Lakers were GARBAGE without Shaq until they landed another HOF center, GOAT head coach, weak ass competition(2009 Magic lol what?)

If anything Shaq leaving separated them more. We all saw how ****ing garbage they were with Kobe as "the man".... lol, is was tragic.

Shaq won immediately AGAIN without Kobe, while he was still relatively young. Who gives a **** what Shaq did in his later years... he won immediately without Kobe. Again, Kobe didn't win SHIT until his historically great franchise built another championship team around Pau.

[Cold soul]

Why do people continue to lump in Kobe with the all-time greats?

I don't give a shit if you compare Kobe to Iverson or Melo.

But stop putting his name next to top 10 greats ike Duncan, Shaq, and LeBron... shit is mad disrespectful. He ain't close to these guys. Never was.

God damn you're dumb ****tard. Please GTFO and go troll somewhere nobody wants to listen to your garbage. Mods please ban this pathetic troll.