Michael Jordan in Today's League: Better or Worse?

[catch24]

Yes or no will suffice, but an explanation would be great too.

I personally think MJ would be the SAME player, only less efficient due to the amount of 3's taken in the game today.

[KG215]

Yes.


Even though it doesn't answer the question.

[sd3035]

Kobe and Lebron

[kennethgriffin]

worse


this is a shooters league

the paint is clogged

PGs are the main ball dominant guys now

team flow and less isolation

less coaches willing to allow mid range game


back to the basket post up games are obsolete



jordans lack of outside shooting and unselfishness would hurt him

nobodies allowed to average 32-33ppg anymore. and jordan wants to lead the nba every year in scoring

[catch24]

Yes.


Even though it doesn't answer the question.

Whoops. Better or worse

:cheers:

[catch24]

worse


this is a shooters league

the paint is clogged

PGs are the main ball dominant guys now

team flow and less isolation

less coaches willing to allow mid range game


back to the basket post up games are obsolete



jordans lack of outside shooting and unselfishness would hurt him

nobodies allowed to average 32-33ppg anymore. and jordan wants to lead the nba every year in scoring

The Perimeter rules might be more lax, but as you said, its a shooters league. The rules have also obliterated post ups which were a big part of MJ's game, especially during the 2nd three-peat.

This is why Jordan would be less efficient albeit still dominant, and probably the best player in the game.

[juju151111]

Yes or no will suffice, but an explanation would be great too.

I personally think MJ would be the SAME player, only less efficient due to the amount of 3's taken in the game today.
You don't have to take alot of 3s to be great in todays league. Look at Wade and LJ that ome year in Miami.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Roughly the same, but possibly a slightly higher TS% in his prime. I also think he'd put up ABSURD steal/block numbers from age 23-28 due to zone rules. Like 2.8 stl/1.2+ blk annually, peaking at 3.2+ stl/1.7+ blk for a year or two in his younger days.

[OldSchoolBBall]

the paint is clogged

LMAo. Paint is WAY more open than for the first 8-10 years of Jordan's career at a minimum.

[Lebron23]

Roughly the same, but possibly a slightly higher TS% in his prime. I also think he'd put up ABSURD steal/block numbers from age 23-28 due to zone rules. Like 2.8 stl/1.2+ blk annually, peaking at 3.2+ stl/1.7+ blk for a year or two in his younger days.


Are you really 37-38 yrs.old?? Every time a Jordan thread was started. You just posts from out of nowhere.

[Asukal]

Considering the game is now dominated by perimeter players, I'd say he'd do even better than in his era. Without the handcheck and the ability to camp the paint, defenders will not be able to defend against the GOAT. :bowdown:

[catch24]

You don't have to take alot of 3s to be great in todays league. Look at Wade and LJ that ome year in Miami.

True, but LeBron has definitely worked on his 3PT shot and its played dividends. Could you imagine him with no long ball AND in-between game? Teams that defend him like the Spurs do would make a complete fool out of the guy. Literally.

Wade is great, but he's not in the same class as MJ, who also made the 3 ball a part of his repertoire.

[juju151111]

The Perimeter rules might be more lax, but as you said, its a shooters league. The rules have also obliterated post ups which were a big part of MJ's game, especially during the 2nd three-peat.

This is why Jordan would be less efficient albeit still dominant, and probably the best player in the game.
How has the rules obliterated post ups? You mean perimeter players have gotten worse. LJ didn't win a championship until he got better in the Post. 09-11 Kobe stayed in the post and so did 14 Durant. Mj is better then all these players in the Post. He will be more efficient cause he not chucking 3s. Look at Wade in 09

[DonDadda59]

Every star perimeter player who was drafted in the mid 90s didn't have their career best scoring year until after the rule changes of the mid 00s. That was no coincidence. MJ, a superior player to them all by a comfortable margin, would not mysteriously and inexplicably buck that trend.

Captain Marvel with James Harden's FTr has at least 1 40 PPG season.


I personally think MJ would be the SAME player, only less efficient due to the amount of 3's taken in the game today.

Dwyane Wade and Tony Parker, multiple champions/finals MVPs/scoring champion say hello. Their career 3s/gm in this era are identical to Jordan's in his. How much did not chucking 3s mindlessly hurt their efficiency? Check the $tats.

[juju151111]

True, but LeBron has definitely worked on his 3PT shot and its played dividends. Could you imagine him with no long ball AND in-between game? Teams that defend him like the Spurs do would make a complete fool out of the guy. Literally.

Wade is great, but he's not in the same class as MJ, who also made the 3 ball a part of his repertoire.
Wade in 09 only took 1.1 three points per game. Thats not alot. LJ never even won until he got a post game

[catch24]

Wade in 09 only took 1.1 three points per game. Thats not alot. LJ never even won until he got a post game

That was 6 years ago, and Wade's efficiency dropped significantly in the playoffs.

Today there seems to more of an emphasis in either shooting 3's, or driving to the basket. Like I said, MJ would still be the best player in the game, but he would have to adjust his game doing so. Unless he's getting more freethrows, his TS, eFG and FG percentages would drop some.

[Legends66NBA7]

Yes or no will suffice, but an explanation would be great too.

I personally think MJ would be the SAME player, only less efficient due to the amount of 3's taken in the game today.

Best player in the game.

I don't think he would see a drop in efficiency and if there is, it's probably miniscule. Yes it is a game for more 3 point shooting, but counters for a perimeter player who doesn't have a good 3 point shot or doesn't rely on them heavily is getting to the basket, getting to the line, having a good/great mid-range, having a good post up game and having good/great passing. Jordan definitely thrives in all of that and would be great today.

The real question for me is how many 3's would he attempt in a league that many perimeter player's take ? Would he be challenged to take many and fall in love with the 3 pointer or would he continue to drive/post up in the paint ?

[Poochymama]

His FG% would be lower, as he'd be taking more 3's, because that's what players do these days.

He'd go to the line more, because star perimeter players go to the line at a higher rate today.

He had more than enough midrange to beat a zone, so I don't see that hurting him too much. The open lanes from from three pointer spacing, lack of handchecking, and extra trips to the line would help his TS% more than zones would hurt it.

Overall he'd be slightly more efficient in todays game, probably 59-65%TS, but the game is also moving towards more team oriented play, and the best scorers are shooting 17-20 times a game, where as he was shooting 24-26 times a game, so his FGA(and his PPG) may actually come down a bit.

[catch24]

Best player in the game.

I don't think he would see a drop in efficiency and if there is, it's probably miniscule. Yes it is a game for more 3 point shooting, but counters for a perimeter player who doesn't have a good 3 point shot or doesn't rely on them heavily is getting to the basket, getting to the line, having a good/great mid-range, having a good post up game and having good/great passing. Jordan definitely thrives in all of that and would be great today.

The real question for me is how many 3's would he attempt in a league that many perimeter player's take ? Would he be challenged to take many and fall in love with the 3 pointer or would he continue to drive/post up in the paint ?

The bold is something that I've been wondering myself. I would learn toward more, hence my affinity for pointing out his efficiency :oldlol: (would probably be a marginal drop off, as you said, but still a drop off).

People don't realize that even today the league is a little different than it was in 2009. Advanced metrics are far more prevelant, and coaches seem to emphasize taking less midrange shots. I hate it, but that's the reality here.

[dhsilv]

You don't have to take alot of 3s to be great in todays league. Look at Wade and LJ that ome year in Miami.

The game changed a LOT defensively after the Celtics won their title. They kinda provided the NBA with the blue print for the modern zone defense which has really changed the game.

00-10 or so MJ would have been unstoppable. Today the rules changes would pose problems for him. That said he can penetrate better than a Harden. MJ's shot is a bit under valued. Just to illustrate it while he slumped in 98 (and stopped shooting them) his 95-97 3 point shooting was 3.3 attempts per game on 40.4% shooting. I believe if he'd needed that aspect of his game to be more dominant he would have developed it sooner in his career.

I think he'd have very effective in today's more complex offenses playing off the ball and in pick and rolls. Also as is always the case, if you're an outlier and you're great at something, you can get away with it. If defenses were giving MJ mid range shots, I'm pretty sure his coach would let HIM take those.

I'm not sure we'd see a 37 a game season out of him, but I don't think the rules would be to his detriment. Lets also not forget that historically the 2 guard spot in the NBA is the weakest positional player. If you have a 2 guard who has jordan's ability to get to the basket, I'm pretty sure the same rules that help point guard would help Jordan.

[sekachu]

worse


this is a shooters league

the paint is clogged

PGs are the main ball dominant guys now

team flow and less isolation

less coaches willing to allow mid range game


back to the basket post up games are obsolete



jordans lack of outside shooting and unselfishness would hurt him

nobodies allowed to average 32-33ppg anymore. and jordan wants to lead the nba every year in scoring





this is a shooters league - What does this have to do on MJ being worse?

the paint is clogged - compare to 90s?

PGs are the main ball dominant guys now - again, I dont understand how does this relate to MJ's superior scoring and defensively?

team flow and less isolation - Have you watched 2015 final? lol

less coaches willing to allow mid range game - wtf?


back to the basket post up games are obsolete - Players today are really regressing instead of obsolete. OMG, strange thought of you :biggums:

[plowking]

I think he puts up slightly less points due to emphasis on team play, on slightly better TS%, and averages slightly less blocks.

Maybe half a rebound more over his career given the dynamism of today's defenses in terms of constantly moving and smaller guys occasionally finding themselves down lower on the block.

Over the last 7 or 8 years he'd compete with Bron for best player in the league consistently.

[Poochymama]

I think he puts up slightly less points due to emphasis on team play, on slightly better TS%, and averages slightly less blocks.

Maybe half a rebound more over his career given the dynamism of today's defenses in terms of constantly moving and smaller guys occasionally finding themselves down lower on the block.

Over the last 7 or 8 years he'd compete with Bron for best player in the league consistently.

This is a good answer, and in line with my thoughts.

[DonDadda59]

That was 6 years ago, and Wade's efficiency dropped significantly in the playoffs.

Today there seems to more of an emphasis in either shooting 3's, or driving to the basket. Like I said, MJ would still be the best player in the game, but he would have to adjust his game doing so. Unless he's getting more freethrows, his TS, eFG and FG percentages would drop some.

Tony Parker dealing with constant injuries, 2010-present: 1 3A/gm, 50.2% FG, .560 TS%, .516 eFG% *2 trips to the finals, 1 championship won*

Dwyane Wade dealing with constant injuries, 2010-present: 1.5 3A/gm, 50.4% FG, .567 TS%, .517 eFG% *4 trips to the finals, 2 championships won*

Where on Earth are you getting this notion that not chucking 3s makes you inefficient? :confusedshrug:

[juju151111]

The game changed a LOT defensively after the Celtics won their title. They kinda provided the NBA with the blue print for the modern zone defense which has really changed the game.

00-10 or so MJ would have been unstoppable. Today the rules changes would pose problems for him. That said he can penetrate better than a Harden. MJ's shot is a bit under valued. Just to illustrate it while he slumped in 98 (and stopped shooting them) his 95-97 3 point shooting was 3.3 attempts per game on 40.4% shooting. I believe if he'd needed that aspect of his game to be more dominant he would have developed it sooner in his career.

I think he'd have very effective in today's more complex offenses playing off the ball and in pick and rolls. Also as is always the case, if you're an outlier and you're great at something, you can get away with it. If defenses were giving MJ mid range shots, I'm pretty sure his coach would let HIM take those.

I'm not sure we'd see a 37 a game season out of him, but I don't think the rules would be to his detriment. Lets also not forget that historically the 2 guard spot in the NBA is the weakest positional player. If you have a 2 guard who has jordan's ability to get to the basket, I'm pretty sure the same rules that help point guard would help Jordan.
Bro what iare you talking about? They didn't change the rules in 2011 and that same Wade destroyed Boston in the playoffs in 2010. Their out of this world defense didn't work then huh?

[Vaniiiia]

He's be behind Durant and LeBron for sure.

Probably behind AD

I see him in the tier with Harden, Westbrook, and Paul

Jordan played in the most watered down league in history in terms of perimeter talent. There were a couple decent big men but they were all soft losers..non intimidating bums who couldn't win in any era. Jordan played with the most stacked teams and arguably the GOAT coach too...

LeBron and Durant do it by themselves essentially. Jordan was playing with teams winning damn near 60 games without him. :oldlol:

FOH.

[catch24]

Tony Parker dealing with constant injuries, 2010-present: 1 3A/gm, 50.2% FG, .560 TS%, .516 eFG% *2 trips to the finals, 1 championship won*

Dwyane Wade dealing with constant injuries, 2010-present: 1.5 3A/gm, 50.4% FG, .567 TS%, .517 eFG% *4 trips to the finals, 2 championships won*

Where on Earth are you getting this notion that not chucking 3s makes you inefficient? :confusedshrug:

Parker's volume isn't even close to Jordan's, and Wade's has dropped a ton since he teamed up with LBJ.

Not the greatest comparison tbh

[juju151111]

That was 6 years ago, and Wade's efficiency dropped significantly in the playoffs.

Today there seems to more of an emphasis in either shooting 3's, or driving to the basket. Like I said, MJ would still be the best player in the game, but he would have to adjust his game doing so. Unless he's getting more freethrows, his TS, eFG and FG percentages would drop some.
His efficiency dropped because he played bad. What about the other 77 regular season. What about the next year when he destroyed Boston in the playoffs. Noting hasn't changed in 6 years. Why do you people say dumb shit.

[juju151111]

I think he puts up slightly less points due to emphasis on team play, on slightly better TS%, and averages slightly less blocks.

Maybe half a rebound more over his career given the dynamism of today's defenses in terms of constantly moving and smaller guys occasionally finding themselves down lower on the block.

Over the last 7 or 8 years he'd compete with Bron for best player in the league consistently.
Mj was playing in a team ball. Bro he wasn't holding the ball like LJ. Go look at the Bulls they averaged 20+ asts

[catch24]

His efficiency dropped because he played bad. What about the other 77 regular season. What about the next year when he destroyed Boston in the playoffs. Noting hasn't changed in 6 years. Why do you people say dumb shit.

I already said dude would be the best player, and you're still getting sensitive. Give the stanning a rest. :oldlol:

[DonDadda59]

He's be behind Durant and LeBron for sure.

Probably behind AD

I see him in the tier with Harden, Westbrook, and Paul

Jordan played in the most watered down league in history in terms of perimeter talent. There were a couple decent big men but they were all soft losers..non intimidating bums who couldn't win in any era. Jordan played with the most stacked teams and arguably the GOAT coach too...

LeBron and Durant do it by themselves essentially. Jordan was playing with teams winning damn near 60 games without him. :oldlol:

FOH.

http://www.supersportscenter.com/images/product/medium/2528.jpg

FOH indeed.

And as far as I know, this man LeBron has yet to issue a formal, public apology to Mr. Whistle for costing him his 4th ring and 2nd Finals MVP in 2011.


Parker's volume isn't even close to Jordan's, and Wade's has dropped a ton since he teamed up with LBJ.

Not the greatest comparison tbh

MJ, Wade, Parker have all won multiple championships, finals MVPs, scoring titles, etc while all taking 1.4-1.7 3s/gm and all averaged above 49% FG for their careers, having shot 50-55% FG multiple times. Regardless of era, rules, etc.

But if MJ played today, he'd be forced to play like Steph Curry.

OK.

[catch24]

MJ, Wade, Parker have all won multiple championships, finals MVPs, scoring titles, etc while all taking 1.4-1.7 3s/gm and all averaged above 49% FG for their careers, having shot 50-55% FG multiple times. Regardless of era, rules, etc.

But if MJ played today, he'd be forced to play like Steph Curry.

OK.

Wade and Parker have substantially less volume, so I'm not sure why you're repeating what you just posted.

How many threes do you think he would take, and how many scoring titles would he grab over KD? To me KD is already one of the greatest scorers of all-time, and basically in the same tier (scoring) with MJ.

[DonDadda59]

Mj was playing in a team ball. Bro he wasn't holding the ball like LJ. Go look at the Bulls they averaged 20+ asts

Apparently 'team ball' = one dude dribbling around the top of the key for 20 sec. while the other 4 guys clear out and watch and then the ball being passed out for a bail out shot.

[juju151111]

I already said dude would be the best player, and you're still getting sensitive. Give the stanning a rest. :oldlol:
No it not about that. This is just discussion i usually have with people here and they never can actually prove their case. Can 02 Kobe play in todays league. That was 13 years ago. When the defense was superior. The points you guys are giving to why his stats would decrease or increase makes no sense

[Soundwave]

About the same, probably a little easier though.

You can't body up like the Pistons or Knicks of the 80s/90s tried to do, so that's out, and there's not nearly as many 7 foot giants like Hakeem, Mutombo, DRob, Ewing, Shaq, etc. waiting at the rim to challenge your shot.

There's no one that I've seen who's as fast as he is a 6 foot 6 in the league. Not with the explosive start/stop first step.

As long as he has that, combined with the leaping ability, he can get his shot off in virtually any era. That's just basically a fact based on his physical attributes.

You can't stop the guy from getting his shot off, and given his basketball I.Q. it was usually a high quality shot.

I think maybe he'd be a little bit stronger because athletes today have access to better supplements and training is more sophisticated than it was 20-25 years ago.

Jordan is an any era player. He would dominate in any time, any era, against any competition.

[juju151111]

Apparently 'team ball' = one dude dribbling around the top of the key for 20 sec. while the other 4 guys clear out and watch and then the ball being passed out for a bail out shot.
Apparent so

[juju151111]

Wade and Parker have substantially less volume, so I'm not sure why you're repeating what you just posted.

How many threes do you think he would take, and how many scoring titles would he grab over KD? To me KD is already one of the greatest scorers of all-time, and basically in the same tier (scoring) with MJ.
What about 09 and 10 Wade in terms of volume. He did it fine against them.

[ClipperRevival]

He would suck. Hand checking was actually beneficial for the offensive player and only smart people realize this and I don't see how good spacing would benefit an athletic perimeter player from getting to the basket.

It's a lot easier when there is hand checking allowed, with less spacing and hard fouls are allowed.

Jesus people are stupid. MJ wouldn't be able to handle the NBA today.

[Vaniiiia]

Apparently 'team ball' = one dude dribbling around the top of the key for 20 sec. while the other 4 guys clear out and watch and then the ball being passed out for a bail out shot.
We saw team ball when MJ left and they won 60 games without him.

Unfortunately for LeBron he was surrounded by the likes of Matthew Dellavedova, Iman Shumpert, JR smith, Tristan Thompson, and Tim Mozgov.

:oldlol:

You try playing team ball with these dudes against the best offense/defense in the league and they get bodied by 30 in every game.

LeBron winning 2 games against Golden State is more impressive than most of Jordans rings. And that's just reality.

I know you Jordan stans don't do well with context though, so carry on with your lame outdated agenda...:sleeping

[DonDadda59]

Wade and Parker have substantially less volume, so I'm not sure why you're repeating what you just posted.

Prime Wade from '05-'06: 27 PPG, 20 FGA, 2.3 3A/gm (11.5% of his shots), 48.7% FG *Championship, 2006 Finals MVP*

Past prime MJ from '95-'98: 30 PPG, 23 FGA, 2.8 3A/gm (c. 12% of his shots), 48.2% FG *3 Championships, '96, '97, '98 Finals MVP*

What are you not understanding here? No one is being forced to chuck 3s against their will. Certain players, teams/coaches just prefer to try to get their points that way. Other players, teams/coaches... multiple time champions in this era, go about it in another way.


How many threes do you think he would take, and how many scoring titles would he grab over KD? To me KD is already one of the greatest scorers of all-time, and basically in the same tier (scoring) with MJ.

Yeah, KD is a great scorer and all but he's not on Jordan's level FOH. Dude gets muscled out of the post by the 6'4" Tony Allen for f*ckssake. Hell of a 3 and FT shooter though. That always helps the ole TS%. Dude barely eeked out one of his scoring titles against a washed up Kobe.

Jordan would take full advantage of the fact that no one would be allowed to touch him or physically impede him and would drive, post up, hit the mid range like he always did (and a smaller, less talented player like Wade has done). With Harden-like or D-Whistle era FTr, he'd push 40 PPG on a shitty squad.

But I'm sure DPOY/First team all NBA center Joakim Noah would have something to say about it.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.mandatory.com/media/2013/02/michael-jordan-laughing.gif

[DonDadda59]

We saw team ball when MJ left and they won 60 games without him.

Unfortunately for LeBron he was surrounded by the likes of Matthew Dellavedova, Iman Shumpert, JR smith, Tristan Thompson, and Tim Mozgov.

:oldlol:

You try playing team ball with these dudes against the best offense/defense in the league and they get bodied by 30 in every game.

LeBron winning 2 games against Golden State is more impressive than most of Jordans rings. And that's just reality.

I know you Jordan stans don't do well with context though, so carry on with your lame outdated agenda...:sleeping

http://www.supersportscenter.com/images/product/medium/2528.jpg

There should be 2 pictures of this. Thanks a lot, LeObama :mad:

[sdot_thadon]

Same, but different. His game from his era would work but not the same way. If he embraced this era's style though maybe even better.

[dhsilv]

Bro what iare you talking about? They didn't change the rules in 2011 and that same Wade destroyed Boston in the playoffs in 2010. Their out of this world defense didn't work then huh?

Did I say rules were changed in 11?

[Lebronxrings]

He was placed in the most perfect situation both a great team and weak competition. I think placed in this era, he would be a demar derozan with slightly better shooting.

so something like 25/5/5 on 47% shooting.

[sportjames23]

worse


this is a shooters league

the paint is clogged

PGs are the main ball dominant guys now

team flow and less isolation

less coaches willing to allow mid range game


back to the basket post up games are obsolete



jordans lack of outside shooting and unselfishness would hurt him

nobodies allowed to average 32-33ppg anymore. and jordan wants to lead the nba every year in scoring


This fool here.



this is a shooters league

And MJ wasn't a shooter?


the paint is clogged

Are you serious? Centers could camp in the paint back in MJ's day. Now, the 3-second defensive rule eliminates that, making it easier for wing players to penetrate. MJ would feast on that shit.


PGs are the main ball dominant guys now

So?


team flow and less isolation

Not with ball dominant guys like Lebron and CP3


less coaches willing to allow mid range game

Because players can't shoot for shit today.


back to the basket post up games are obsolete

Which says a lot about how shit has deteriorated in the League.


jordans lack of outside shooting and unselfishness would hurt him

MJ was smart enough to not have to rely on jacking up 3's, unlike Kobe and many of today's wing players. And I don't see how being unselfish hurts MJ.


nobodies allowed to average 32-33ppg anymore. and jordan wants to lead the nba every year in scoring

You don't allow the GOAT to do anything. He just does. And he wins.

And like MJ said years ago, scoring is easy--8 points a quarter and he's at his average (during his prime years).

[juju151111]

Did I say rules were changed in 11?
The way your talking made it seem 09 wade would struggle in 2011 just two years later. It makes no freaking sense.

[DonDadda59]

He was placed in the most perfect situation both a great team and weak competition. I think placed in this era, he would be a demar derozan with slightly better shooting.

so something like 25/5/5 on 47% shooting.

https://nbcprobasketballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/image3.png

And you wonder why it took a miracle from Jesus himself for your boy to not be 1/6 vs the West. The one time in the past 15 years the East had a win percentage higher than the mid 30s-low 40s, Bron Bron's 61 win team couldn't get out of 2nd round and he fled to Wade County.

Put any of Bron's teams in an East where the win% is in the upper 50s AKA the second 3-peat era and Bron gets clowned 2010 Celtics style every year barring another miracle. Dude would be bouncing from team to team so much, you'd think the motherf*cker was a 6'8" 260 lbs pinball.

[catch24]

Prime Wade from '05-'06: 27 PPG, 20 FGA, 2.3 3A/gm (11.5% of his shots), 48.7% FG *Championship, 2006 Finals MVP*

Past prime MJ from '95-'98: 30 PPG, 23 FGA, 2.8 3A/gm (c. 12% of his shots), 48.2% FG *3 Championships, '96, '97, '98 Finals MVP*

Teams today shoot even more threes than they did in 2006. ~600 more to be exact.

Less midrange shots too.

I'm not saying Jordan would chuck threes. What I'm saying is Jordan actually had a 3 ball, and would have implemented it more so in today's game. That along with his bread and butter, midrange level, would be exploited less.

Again, I think dude still scores the same (volume). Probably even more, but he does so while being marginally less effective.


Yeah, KD is a great scorer and all but he's not on Jordan's level FOH. Dude gets muscled out of the post by the 6'4" Tony Allen for f*ckssake. Hell of a 3 and FT shooter though. That always helps the ole TS%. Dude barely eeked out one of his scoring titles against a washed up Kobe.

Too soon? You're probably right. Dude needs to hit the weights, and be a little more aggressive in the playoffs. That series vs Memphis was definitely the low point of his career.

That MVP season doe? His take over ability was damn near MJ level.

Admit it, Donnie.

[juju151111]

Teams today shoot even more threes than they did in 2006. ~600 more to be exact.

Less midrange shots too.

I'm not saying Jordan would chuck threes. What I'm saying is Jordan actually had a 3 ball, and would have implemented it more so in today's game. That along with his bread and butter, midrange level, would be exploited less.

Again, I think dude still scores the same (volume). Probably even more, but he does so while being marginally less effective.



Too soon? You're probably right. Dude needs to hit the weights, and be a little more aggressive in the playoffs. That series vs Memphis was definitely the low point of his career.

That MVP season doe? His take over ability was damn near MJ level.

Admit it, Donnie.
Durant is great but he actually an example of someone who i think would slightly struggle with handchecking physical defense.

[plowking]

Mj was playing in a team ball. Bro he wasn't holding the ball like LJ. Go look at the Bulls they averaged 20+ asts

Jordan has the highest usage ever. The ball always went through him, or was always heading to him in one way or another.

The Heat didn't have Bron hold the ball up either. The team set records for most passes in a game averaged throughout a season before the Spurs broke it the following season.

You Jordan fanboys are fascinated with bringing up Lebron any time you can.

[plowking]

https://nbcprobasketballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/image3.png

And you wonder why it took a miracle from Jesus himself for your boy to not be 1/6 vs the West. The one time in the past 15 years the East had a win percentage higher than the mid 30s-low 40s, Bron Bron's 61 win team couldn't get out of 2nd round and he fled to Wade County.

Put any of Bron's teams in an East where the win% is in the upper 50s AKA the second 3-peat era and Bron gets clowned 2010 Celtics style every year barring another miracle. Dude would be bouncing from team to team so much, you'd think the motherf*cker was a 6'8" 260 lbs pinball.

You do realize that chart has very little to do with what you're trying to portray, right?

It is like saying Porsche's are bad cars because of their stereo system.

This East isn't close to being the weakest it has ever been. Fact is, Jordan was making the playoffs with a 30 win team. No other way to cut it other than making the playoffs with 30 wins, makes it a weaker conference than teams with 40 wins making it.

[DonDadda59]

Teams today shoot even more threes than they did in 2006. ~600 more to be exact.

Less midrange shots too.

I'm not saying Jordan would chuck threes. What I'm saying is Jordan actually had a 3 ball, and would have implemented it more so in today's game. That along with his bread and butter, midrange level, would be exploited less.

Teams shot 6 3s/gm in 1990, by 1998 off the top of my head it was around 17 or 18 3s/gm. Didn't mean shit to the GOAT. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

And I already showed you how a broken down Wade averaged 22 PPG on 50.4% FG from 2010-present taking only 1.5 3s/gm.

Again- no one is being force to chuck 3s against their will. The only difference for MJ would be him getting a lot more room to operate on the perimeter with the removal of handchecking and a sharp increase in his FTr and more open lanes thanks to the 3-sec rule.

I can't reiterate this enough- dudes that were drafted and played in Jordan era (ie Kobe/Iverson) didn't have their career scoring highs until after the mid 00s rule changes. Now why on Earth would the GOAT perimeter scorer buck that league wide trend and have worse production.

That doesn't even make a little bit of sense


Again, I think dude still scores the same (volume). Probably even more, but he does so while being marginally less effective.

There's absolutely no reason to believe his efficiency would go down. None whatsoever. You just saying it doesn't count for jack. He takes the same # of 3s he always did, AKA what Parker/Wade do now.


Too soon? You're probably right. Dude needs to hit the weights, and be a little more aggressive in the playoffs. That series vs Memphis was definitely the low point of his career.

8 years after he couldn't do a single rep of 185 lbs on the bench press, he's getting bullied by a guy half his size with his own city calling him Mr. Unreliable.

But he = GOAT scorer doe.

:durantunimpressed:


That MVP season doe? His take over ability was damn near MJ level.

http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/tulsaworld.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/b/6a/b6ad3716-d160-11e3-9fad-0017a43b2370/5362967dc536b.image.jpg

Can you imagine MJ in one of his MVP/scoring title seasons getting bossed around on the court by someone 5'9"... in the playoffs :roll:

And his own teammate just won the scoring title a season after KD did. Jordan never had offensive help like that. Prime Pippen = 22 PPG. We haven't even seen Durant's sidekick's prime but already he has a scoring title to his name.


Admit it, Donnie.

F*ck you. I'm going to sleep :D

[plowking]

To be fair to Durant, Payton shut down Jordan in 96 far worse than Allen did Durant.

[catch24]

Guess it just depends on whether you think MJ shoots more threes NOW than when he played in the 80s & 90s. I'd lean toward more considering dude actually had the range, and post 1990, shot it with more frequency than Wade and Parker ever did.

To each his own though.

MJ = GOAT

[Naero]

Yes or no will suffice, but an explanation would be great too.

I personally think MJ would be the SAME player, only less efficient due to the amount of 3's taken in the game today.

I think most fail to contextualize the fact that Michael Jordan grew up without the institutionalization of three-pointers, and he therefore didn't naturally develop that proficiency moving into his formative years in the NBA.

Yes, the three-point line was instituted in the NBA 5 years before Jordan's entrance into the league, but he never needed to use it in college; as such, he was rather ingrained within the mid-range radius of the game, and it took a while for him—alongside the rest of the league—to really espouse it as an indispensable skill. It wasn't until 1989-90 that the league average even cracked 33% three-point-shooting, and Jordan averaged 35.9% three-point-shooting as a Bull since that season—on par with the league average today!

Had Jordan grown up in the modern-age basketball culture that had already conventionalized three-point-shooting and mastered it from a younger, more rootly formative age, he most likely would've developed it as apart of his repertoire and thus would be in better shape to maintain efficience with a more three-point-happy approach.

[juju151111]

Jordan has the highest usage ever. The ball always went through him, or was always heading to him in one way or another.

The Heat didn't have Bron hold the ball up either. The team set records for most passes in a game averaged throughout a season before the Spurs broke it the following season.

You Jordan fanboys are fascinated with bringing up Lebron any time you can.
Usage isn't how long you hold the ball. Its just adds up all the things u do. I never said the Heat held the ball. I was replying to someone who said Mj was a ball stopper\iso player. The Bulls routinely averaged 20+ asts. Yea the offense went through Mj

[juju151111]

Guess it just depends on whether you think MJ shoots more threes NOW than when he played in the 80s & 90s. I'd lean toward more considering dude actually had the range, and post 1990, shot it with more frequency than Wade and Parker ever did.

To each his own though.

MJ = GOAT
He wouldn't need too. Go look at how much the league zhot in 88 to 98. He still was dominating even tho the league was shooting way more 3s

[Vaniiiia]

To be fair to Durant, Payton shut down Jordan in 96 far worse than Allen did Durant.
Durant averaged 30/10 for the series. LOL.

He had one terrible game that brought his efficiency down, but don is a moron and is using newspaper articles for his arguments.

What happened after that article was released Don? Oh, that's right... Durant took a hot steamy pile of shit on Allen and the Grizz in games 6 and 7 to win the series.

[Gileraracer]

Better. No contact, whistle everytime they touch one another.

[BlakFrankWhite]

Durant averaged 30/10 for the series. LOL.

He had one terrible game that brought his efficiency down, but don is a moron and is using newspaper articles for his arguments.

What happened after that article was released Don? Oh, that's right... Durant took a hot steamy pile of shit on Allen and the Grizz in games 6 and 7 to win the series.

Game 6: 36/11

Game 7: 33/9

But he da choker doe

[eeeeeebro]

better - Jordan is a GOAT free throw shooter and he is so fast only way to stop him is becoming physical. His star power will give him all benefit calls you cant look at Jordan wrong cause he is the face of the league you will get fouls called. Jordan will score more 40+ games than anyone in the league and lebron would be easily considered #2 in league

[plowking]

Usage isn't how long you hold the ball. Its just adds up all the things u do. I never said the Heat held the ball. I was replying to someone who said Mj was a ball stopper\iso player. The Bulls routinely averaged 20+ asts. Yea the offense went through Mj

MJ was an iso player.

Why do people paint this in a negative light? You want the ball in your best players hands as much as possible. My point in replying to your post was that YOU in fact tried to paint it in a negative light, when it isn't.

Sometimes it is best to hold the ball for as long as you need, while other times swinging the ball constantly is the way to go.

[SOD 21]

To the poster in this thread who said players no longer average 32 or 33 points per game, do you realize that Kevin Durant averaged 32 points per game in 2014 and averaged nearly 35 points from Christmas until the end of the season in 2014 when he was MVP?

To answer the original question in this thread, Michael Jordan would be the same today as he was in the 80s and 90s. In some ways, he could be even more dangerous by surrounding him with even better three-point shooters ( yes, I am aware that the Chicago team did have some excellent three-point shooters) to help space the floor even more and the lack of hand checking/physicality on the perimeter would make some things easier.

Jordan would still average 30 points per game on a very high efficiency and would likely be the best player in the league. Anyone who says differently is fooling themselves.

[sdot_thadon]

This fool here.




And MJ wasn't a shooter?







No.

In the sense of shooting the ball, sure he's a shooter. Hell, we all are. But in the basketball sense? No man.:oldlol:

[Legends66NBA7]

MJ was an iso player.

Why do people paint this in a negative light? You want the ball in your best players hands as much as possible. My point in replying to your post was that YOU in fact tried to paint it in a negative light, when it isn't.

Sometimes it is best to hold the ball for as long as you need, while other times swinging the ball constantly is the way to go.

True, I don't get the hate on ISO's today. It is true mediocre talent ISO'ing too much and having bad results should be avoided, but that's usually teams using these players out of necessity and lack of talent. Great talent is usually great on ISO's, along with many other factors in the game like passing, spacing, off ball movement, etc... to throw many counters at the defense.

[Beastmode88]

Imagine jordan getting calls like harden and kd... 60 ppg.

[sdot_thadon]

Imagine jordan getting calls like harden and kd... 60 ppg.
He'd never flail enough to get them.

[juju151111]

MJ was an iso player.

Why do people paint this in a negative light? You want the ball in your best players hands as much as possible. My point in replying to your post was that YOU in fact tried to paint it in a negative light, when it isn't.

Sometimes it is best to hold the ball for as long as you need, while other times swinging the ball constantly is the way to go.
You said he puts up slightly less points due to the emphasis on team play. Mj did what he did while his team averaged 20+ asts.

[miles berg]

He would approach 40 ppg in today's weak ass league. This is the weakest the league has been since the 70s, defense is almost non existent on top of a low, low talent level.

[feyki]

Better . 15 ftm per night.

[ShawkFactory]

Similar. He could score whenever he wanted in either era.

Depends on the team to determine if he has similar success.

[PJR]

He would approach 40 ppl in today's weak ass league. This is the weakest the league has been since the 70s, defense is almost non existent.

This is hyperbolic garbage lol.

[fpliii]

He wouldn't be worse. It's not as if his playstyle is one that wouldn't translate to today's game.

A three pointer isn't a huge boon to an on-ball offensive player's impact other than improving his efficiency (and MJ was already a beast in that regard). Off-ball for spacing reasons a three could be valuable, but consider some of the data we had last year on Wade's distraction and respect scores (gravity or whatnot). His man respected him a ton as a cutter. MJ's man wouldn't leave him open since he's a GOAT pull up vs drive threat before his first retirement (post up fadeaway heavy MJ was a different player, but that was an extremely high percentage shot).

Defensively without hand-checking it would be hard to play defense the same way for a lot of guys from the 80s/90s today, but MJ wasn't entirely dependent on it. He also had true guard quickness in the frame of a wing player, so he's going to stay in front of you, and you're not going to beat him off the dribble often. With improved defensive strategy/analytics today, you're giving Jordan additional knowledge, and you'd better bet he'd take advantage of it.

If you're going to judge somebody by his box score stats as better/worse, that's something else entirely. I don't know how MJ's box score would change, but it wouldn't make him a markedly different player if his per game numbers changed.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Every star perimeter player who was drafted in the mid 90s didn't have their career best scoring year until after the rule changes of the mid 00s. That was no coincidence. MJ, a superior player to them all by a comfortable margin, would not mysteriously and inexplicably buck that trend.

Captain Marvel with James Harden's FTr has at least 1 40 PPG season.
Bingo.


wyane Wade and Tony Parker, multiple champions/finals MVPs/scoring champion say hello. Their career 3s/gm in this era are identical to Jordan's in his. How much did not chucking 3s mindlessly hurt their efficiency? Check the $tats.
SERIOUSLY. Not shooting threes helps his efficiency and with a more open driving lanes due to spacing or defensive rules. Less physical contact ... prime / peak MJ is having a field day in the paint. Picture '93 Finals MJ for an entire season. 40 ppg seasons more than plausible.

[ralph_i_el]

Star players don't take as many shots today, because defenses are free to key up on one guy. He'd have less points, and probably more assists. He'd still be the best player in the league.

NO 40 POINT SEASON

[miles berg]

This is hyperbolic garbage lol.

Lol, no. I've been a hardcore fan for four decades. The league is at its lowest point since pre Magic/Bird days. Exactly 2 stars in this league today. No depth. Guys like Harrison Barnes and Tristan Thompson being offered star money because the league is so weak.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Star players don't take as many shots today, because defenses are free to key up on one guy. He'd have less points, and probably more assists. He'd still be the best player in the league.

NO 40 POINT SEASON
Harden and Westbrook just both put up 25 ppg to 27 ppg almost exclusively on free throws and drives. No mid range, post game or truly refined scoring skill. And MJ would score less? Um, OK kid. Prisoner of the moment this kid.

[r15mohd]

Lol, no. I've been a hardcore fan for four decades. The league is at its lowest point since pre Magic/Bird days. Exactly 2 stars in this league today. No depth. Guys like Harrison Barnes and Tristan Thompson being offered star money because the league is so weak.

it's definitely not at its lowest point. you've had some of the greatest performances happen within the past 10-15yrs or so:

Kobe's 81
Game 6 comeback and the most clutch shot in a Finals by Jesus
TMac's 13 in 33sec
Arguably the greatest shooters to exist...initially Ray, and now Steph Curry
Shaq as the MDE to step foot in the NBA
unprecedented 50 win seasons and consistent tenure from the Spurs to date
Lebron's 4th qtr against the Pistons
etc.

as for the money being tossed around...that's apart of the business aspect today. money is readily available with such deals like the TV rights and the players now hold the power in negotiations rather than the solely greedy owners from the "golden days". both the owners and players benefit now, a more level field of compensation.

ultimately, it seems you're just reluctant to accept the evolution of the game today :confusedshrug:

[DonDadda59]

Star players don't take as many shots today, because defenses are free to key up on one guy. He'd have less points, and probably more assists. He'd still be the best player in the league.

NO 40 POINT SEASON

:biggums:

It's almost like you dudes are completely oblivious to anything that happened in the NBA pre 2012. There are no Durant Rules or Harden Rules being run.

And KD averaged 32 PPG on 21 FGA in his last full, healthy year. That was on a team that made the WCF. Imagine if he had been on a shitty team without the 2nd best scorer in the league as a teammate. :eek:


Harden and Westbrook just both put up 25 ppg to 27 ppg almost exclusively on free throws and drives. No mid range, post game or truly refined scoring skill. And MJ would score less? Um, OK kid. Prisoner of the moment this kid.

I'm saying... Westbrook and Harden leading the league in scoring (with KD out) would be like Pippen and Kukoc leading the league in scoring. :oldlol:

When Jordan averaged 37 PPG, the next closest guy was Dominique at 29 PPG. He had a full 8 PPG gap between himself and the #2 scorer in the league. Hell, even Durant had a 5 PPG gap between himself and the #2 guy Melo in his last scoring championship season.

Just because run-of-the-mill stars don't/can't do something, doesn't mean the GOAT can't either. The truly great ones always separate themselves from the pack.

[90sgoat]

I think MJ would put up about 32-34 ppg, no more no less. I do believe he could EASILY average 40 ppg if he wanted, but that wouldn't be optimal.

What I do think is that he would average a lot more assists, because MJ was basically also the GOAT at perimeter penetration. People tend to forget that MJ scored most his points on penetrations during the first 3 peat and this was with full handchecking and paint camping.

MJ today without handchecking is going to be insane to cover. Look at how Kyrie gets open all the time. Who is going to guard MJ and his speed?

MJ is going to get into the paint very easily and then it's going to be open, no one under the basket. Essentially he will make quick first step, one dribble and then two-leg takeoff from around the dotted circle in the paint.

If someone then moves over to try to help defense, he will get a lot of 'Lebron' assists.

MJ would be dunking so much it would be an even bigger show. He would probably get 3-5 dunks a game.

In short I am guessing he averages 33ppg 8apg 7rpg 3spg 1.5bpg on 50+FG%

[ralph_i_el]

Lol, no. I've been a hardcore fan for four decades. The league is at its lowest point since pre Magic/Bird days. Exactly 2 stars in this league today. No depth. Guys like Harrison Barnes and Tristan Thompson being offered star money because the league is so weak.

They're getting offered star money because that isn't going to be star money in a year :facepalm salary cap is going to go up by like 40%


Harden and Westbrook just both put up 25 ppg to 27 ppg almost exclusively on free throws and drives. No mid range, post game or truly refined scoring skill. And MJ would score less? Um, OK kid. Prisoner of the moment this kid.

Harden took 38% of his shots from 3. Westbrook chucked and pushed it in semi-transition and scored 28ppg on poor efficiency on a team without other offensive threats.

No one is scoring 40ppg in todays league. Nobody takes enough shots, because ISO scoring has lost a lot of efficiency. Good teams swing the ball, and break down the D for open shots.

It's a 3 point shooting league, and that was MJ's weakest area on offense, no?

I still say he'd be the best in the league, but he'd have to take 7-8 more shots per game than the current league leaders in shots to score 40 points, even if he had insane efficiency. He'd have to have the highest usg% of all time unless he was scoring at nearly 70 TS%. He scored 32ppg on 22fga in his highest efficiency season, and that was in the no-D, fastbreak 80's. MJ is on record as saying the zone takes away from individual stars, and we've seen that. The best stars today are the guys that share the ball more than any other time in NBA history.

MJ is the goat, but if you actually believe he'd have 70% TS or have 45% usg you're delusional.

I say MJ would have a peak season in today's league of 29ppg on 63% TS, with 7.5 apg and Dpoy defense (aka, clearly the best player in the league).


Also, people are giving Harden so much hate! He is one of the greatest passing wings I've ever seen. His ability to shoot 3's off the dribble makes his defender have to guard him closely far from the hoop, and his passing ability makes it hard to double him. This means that with his epic handle, he can essentially get past his man at will. He stretches defenses to an insane level, because the only strategy to beat him is rough fouls that don't get called, or hoping his shot is off. Last season he shot 7 3's per game, and only 51% of his makes were assisted. That means he's creating really high % looks at will.

[Dragonyeuw]

worse


this is a shooters league

the paint is clogged

PGs are the main ball dominant guys now

team flow and less isolation

less coaches willing to allow mid range game


back to the basket post up games are obsolete



jordans lack of outside shooting and unselfishness would hurt him

nobodies allowed to average 32-33ppg anymore. and jordan wants to lead the nba every year in scoring

You had a diet coke version of MJ(Wade) just put up 30ppg on 49% as recently as 6 years ago with an inferior mid-range game. Both Lebron and Wade in their peaks were 27 to 30 ppg guys without having to rely on an abundance of 3 pointers. Why would MJ be any different, when at his peak he was both an elite midrange shooter and slasher? Midrange hasn't gone anywhere, and you just had a slasher with a streaky midrange shot win the scoring title. How does any of this translate to MJ being worse off today? James fcuking Harden can average 27 ppg and he's several times worse than MJ, yet we're to believe that MJ can't tack on an extra 5 points to what Harden showed last year?

[ralph_i_el]

You had a diet coke version of MJ(Wade) just put up 30ppg on 49% as recently as 6 years ago with an inferior mid-range game. Both Lebron and Wade in their peaks were 27 to 30 ppg guys without having to rely on an abundance of 3 pointers. Why would MJ be any different, when at his peak he was both an elite midrange shooter and slasher? Midrange hasn't gone anywhere, and you just had a slasher with a streaky midrange shot win the scoring title. How does any of this translate to MJ being worse off today? James fcuking Harden can average 27 ppg and he's several times worse than MJ, yet we're to believe that MJ can't tack on an extra 5 points to what Harden showed last year?

"several times worse than MJ"
maybe if you're talking about the full package (D)

But Harden's greatest strength is his ability to shoot 3's off the bounce, and his great floor vision. This guarantees him 1-on-1's with a defender that has to guard him at the 3 point line. He's absolutely built for this era.


Mid range and post game didn't go anywhere.....but if MJ is getting most of his points from those area's, his team is going to be playing at a pretty slow pace. No 40ppg season.

[juju151111]

They're getting offered star money because that isn't going to be star money in a year :facepalm salary cap is going to go up by like 40%



Harden took 38% of his shots from 3. Westbrook chucked and pushed it in semi-transition and scored 28ppg on poor efficiency on a team without other offensive threats.

No one is scoring 40ppg in todays league. Nobody takes enough shots, because ISO scoring has lost a lot of efficiency. Good teams swing the ball, and break down the D for open shots.

It's a 3 point shooting league, and that was MJ's weakest area on offense, no?

I still say he'd be the best in the league, but he'd have to take 7-8 more shots per game than the current league leaders in shots to score 40 points, even if he had insane efficiency. He'd have to have the highest usg% of all time unless he was scoring at nearly 70 TS%. He scored 32ppg on 22fga in his highest efficiency season, and that was in the no-D, fastbreak 80's. MJ is on record as saying the zone takes away from individual stars, and we've seen that. The best stars today are the guys that share the ball more than any other time in NBA history.

MJ is the goat, but if you actually believe he'd have 70% TS or have 45% usg you're delusional.

I say MJ would have a peak season in today's league of 29ppg on 63% TS, with 7.5 apg and Dpoy defense (aka, clearly the best player in the league).


Also, people are giving Harden so much hate! He is one of the greatest passing wings I've ever seen. His ability to shoot 3's off the dribble makes his defender have to guard him closely far from the hoop, and his passing ability makes it hard to double him. This means that with his epic handle, he can essentially get past his man at will. He stretches defenses to an insane level, because the only strategy to beat him is rough fouls that don't get called, or hoping his shot is off. Last season he shot 7 3's per game, and only 51% of his makes were assisted. That means he's creating really high % looks at will.
No body said anything about no 70% TS and KD just averged 32 ppg 2 season ago from December to the end of the season. No thats not his weakest area. Mj shot 40% in his first 3 peat from 3 range. The point is you don't need a 3 just like Wade didn't when he averged 30 ppg. Same way Mj still averged 30 ppg in 96 even through 3 point taken nearly doubled from 86 to 96.

[juju151111]

"several times worse than MJ"
maybe if you're talking about the full package (D)

But Harden's greatest strength is his ability to shoot 3's off the bounce, and his great floor vision. This guarantees him 1-on-1's with a defender that has to guard him at the 3 point line. He's absolutely built for this era.


Mid range and post game didn't go anywhere.....but if MJ is getting most of his points from those area's, his team is going to be playing at a pretty slow pace. No 40ppg season.
Even if he doesn't get 40 ppg, still can get 33-37 ppg. Harden has never averged 30 ppg and probably isn't capable. Durant did it just 2 seasons ago.

[DonDadda59]

You had a diet coke version of MJ(Wade) just put up 30ppg on 49% as recently as 6 years ago with an inferior mid-range game. Both Lebron and Wade in their peaks were 27 to 30 ppg guys without having to rely on an abundance of 3 pointers. Why would MJ be any different, when at his peak he was both an elite midrange shooter and slasher? Midrange hasn't gone anywhere, and you just had a slasher with a streaky midrange shot win the scoring title. How does any of this translate to MJ being worse off today? James fcuking Harden can average 27 ppg and he's several times worse than MJ, yet we're to believe that MJ can't tack on an extra 5 points to what Harden showed last year?

:no:

James 'Toni Kukoc' Harden = Michael Jordan.

If James Harden can't do it, it can't be done. Nevermind that a healthy Durant on a championship contender with a budding scoring champion on his squad just put up 32 PPG on 21 FGA and had a 5 PPG lead over the #2 scorer a season ago. Nevermind that Kobe and Iverson, guys who were drafted/played in Jordan's era saw a healthy surge in their PPG once the rules were modified to what they are now... those guys put up 33 and 35 PPG. Michael Jordan would buck the trend of perimeter players seeing career scoring highs across the board following the rule changes.

Michael Jordan could only score as much as this generation's Toni Kukoc.

True Story.

[ralph_i_el]

No body said anything about no 70% TS and KD just averged 32 ppg 2 season ago from December to the end of the season. No thats not his weakest area. Mj shot 40% in his first 3 peat from 3 range. The point is you don't need a 3 just like Wade didn't when he averged 30 ppg. Same way Mj still averged 30 ppg in 96 even through 3 point taken nearly doubled from 86 to 96.

not true.

and his only good 3 point seasons with volume came with a short line.

KD is one of the GOAT scorers. scored 32 ppg on 64% TS and a league leading 33 usg%, so yeah, to score 40ppg He'd either have to lead the league in USG by a HUGE margin, or have the highest perimeter TS% from a 1st option EVER by a huge margin.


:no:

James 'Toni Kukoc' Harden = Michael Jordan.

If James Harden can't do it, it can't be done. Nevermind that a healthy Durant on a championship contender with a budding scoring champion on his squad just put up 32 PPG on 21 FGA and had a 5 PPG lead over the #2 scorer a season ago. Nevermind that Kobe and Iverson, guys who were drafted/played in Jordan's era saw a healthy surge in their PPG once the rules were modified to what they are now... those guys put up 33 and 35 PPG. Michael Jordan would buck the trend of perimeter players seeing career scoring highs across the board following the rule changes.

Michael Jordan could only score as much as this generation's Toni Kukoc.

True Story.

Blatant disrespect for Harden. Can't take anything you say seriously. Defenses changed slower than the rule changes. After 2008 perimeter players scoring dropped off again as teams figured out how to use defensive freedom to slow down guys like that.

[dh144498]

poor man's Tony Allen.

:confusedshrug:

[f0und]

better

the answer is simple. if dwade can do what he did in 09, mj could do it a bit better. superior slasher, superior mid range, much more superior post game, better iq, and a better motor.

look at the rules too. the rules were changed to allow better penetration. and whats jordan's biggest strength? penetration.

[juju151111]

not true.

and his only good 3 point seasons with volume came with a short line.

KD is one of the GOAT scorers. scored 32 ppg on 64% TS and a league leading 33 usg%, so yeah, to score 40ppg He'd either have to lead the league in USG by a HUGE margin, or have the highest perimeter TS% from a 1st option EVER by a huge margin.



Blatant disrespect for Harden. Can't take anything you say seriously. Defenses changed slower than the rule changes. After 2008 perimeter players scoring dropped off again as teams figured out how to use defensive freedom to slow down guys like that.
I meant in the playoffs. He shot 38% in 91-93. No it didn't he shot 37% the first year he took alot in 90. All he has to do is take more shots then KD and keep his Ts% high. You get more fts in this era.

How did it slow down Wade in the very next season he averaged 30 ppg in 09. How did it slow down Kd in 10 when he had 30 ppg?

[ralph_i_el]

I meant in the playoffs. He shot 38% in 91-93. No it didn't he shot 37% the first year he took alot in 90. All he has to do is take more shots then KD and keep his Ts% high. You get more fts in this era.

How did it slow down Wade in the very next season he averaged 30 ppg in 09. How did it slow down Kd in 10 when he had 30 ppg?

30 points is a lot different than 40 points. Both of those guys are probably top-25 scorers all time. Wade did it on a team that had 22 year old Mario Chalmers, and 20 year old Mike Beasley as their second and 3rd best scorers. And he had a USG% around prime-MJ

and Jermaine O'Neal for 22 games:roll:

You don't just take 8 more shots per game than the next highest person in the league. That's what MJ would have to do.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Depends.
I would guess better. his ability to GET to the rim in unparalleled in nba history, and his ingenuity at the rim is also the best in nba history (though a few players shoot a higher percentage at the rim tbh)

He would get more foul calls, that much is obvious. Spacing feels better today, so Im sure he would have developed a decent 3 point shot.

While it is true that his 3 point shot was very inconsistent throughout his career, he showed enough flashes that I think his 3 point shooting would have improved.

Would play less minutes I guess, so his overall averages might go down. I think with modern training, he would have actually improved his already GOAT level mid range game (I recall that outside of 15 feet, he shot something near 51% at the end of his career, cough cough Harvey Polluck is a bullcrapper)

So yeah, I would think that, considering that peak for peak, and overall, no one matches him (though some admittedly come close, such as possibly Lebron when his career is over, Russell, Kareem, and Ive seen good arguments for and against Wilt)

[juju151111]

30 points is a lot different than 40 points. Both of those guys are probably top-25 scorers all time. Wade did it on a team that had 22 year old Mario Chalmers, and 20 year old Mike Beasley as their second and 3rd best scorers. And he had a USG% around prime-MJ

and Jermaine O'Neal for 22 games:roll:

You don't just take 8 more shots per game than the next highest person in the league. That's what MJ would have to do.
Why can't he if his team needs it? Mj stamina was high anyways. Well i never said he would averge 40 ppg. I think 33-37 on better TS because of how Fts are called today. You acting like what Mj was doing was the norm dummy. Only two players throughout the 90s averaged 30 ppg. The year when Mj averge 37 ppg the next highest was 7 ppg behind. Averging 30ppg is not a normal thing bro. Its rare. Mj did it alot this is what made him the best scorer ever

[Rocketswin2013]

There is nothing that would give him an edge or disadvantage he didn't already have.

[juju151111]

There is nothing that would give him an edge or disadvantage he didn't already have.
Actually the rule changes would give him a edge.

[senelcoolidge]

He would have easier buckets. No one to stand in his way when he drives. Too much spacing, it would be too easy.

[ralph_i_el]

Why can't he if his team needs it? Mj stamina was high anyways. Well i never said he would averge 40 ppg. I think 33-37 on better TS because of how Fts are called today. You acting like what Mj was doing was the norm dummy. Only two players throughout the 90s averaged 30 ppg. The year when Mj averge 37 ppg the next highest was 7 ppg behind. Averging 30ppg is not a normal thing bro. Its rare. Mj did it alot this is what made him the best scorer ever

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1985&year_max=1990&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&birth_state=&college_id=&draft_year=&is_active=&debut_yr_nba_start=&debut_yr_nba_end=&debut_yr_aba_start=&debut_yr_aba_end=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&award=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws

^shot per game leaders '84-'90

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2010&year_max=2015&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&birth_state=&college_id=&draft_year=&is_active=&debut_yr_nba_start=&debut_yr_nba_end=&debut_yr_aba_start=&debut_yr_aba_end=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&award=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws

^shot per game leaders '10-'15


Today's game is played at a slower pace. Stars play less minutes across the board, and take less shots.

[Rocketswin2013]

Actually the rule changes would give him a edge.
Which ones?

[ClipperRevival]

Which ones?

1) No hand check
2) No physical contact allowed which means he would get more calls

And not the rules but the spacing in today's game means more space to work with. MJ already established himself as the best ever at getting to the basket and finishing in an era where it was much more congested, hand checking was allowed and hard fouls were allowed. He would flourish better in this era. The rules were tailor made for the athletic, wing player.

[Rocketswin2013]

Kobe Bryant FTR '97 - '04: .390

Kobe Bryant FTR '06 - '13: .378

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1985&year_max=1990&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&birth_state=&college_id=&draft_year=&is_active=&debut_yr_nba_start=&debut_yr_nba_end=&debut_yr_aba_start=&debut_yr_aba_end=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&award=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws

^shot per game leaders '84-'90

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2010&year_max=2015&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&birth_state=&college_id=&draft_year=&is_active=&debut_yr_nba_start=&debut_yr_nba_end=&debut_yr_aba_start=&debut_yr_aba_end=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&award=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws

^shot per game leaders '10-'15


Today's game is played at a slower pace. Stars play less minutes across the board, and take less shots.

While I partially agree with you, I do have a few points I would like to make.

1. Personally, many people say pace doesent truly effect star scoring, and while the correlation might not be huge, it is foolish however to say that there ISNT a relationship. the correlation increases as the situation gets more extreme. good point about shots, which refutes this point completely.
2. One thing I would like to mention is that this depends on what team he plays in. realistically, Jordan imo was the best player of all time in transition, and Dipper/Phila's research supports this theory, as he shot something like 90% over a 132 game span in transition. for comparison, Lebron generally shoots somewhere in the 70s, even in 09, which imo is his peak year.
3. to all the people talking about how he would dominate because of spacing, defenses are obviously much more complicated today. not gonna go in depth on that lol. But tbh, He already attacked teh rim as good as anyone, what makes people think he would suddenly do better? what, does his percentage go from around 77% to 79% at the rim?
3.
I believe that while his raw stats might not be as impressive, because of minutes and pace, his impact would probably stay the same. After-all, he is far better than people like peak Kobe on offense, and obviously, was a monster defensively as well.
4.
Even now, people fail to realize the nuances of his game. I wont go into depth now, but in terms of his basketball IQ, I find it criminally underrated.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Kobe Bryant FTR '97 - '04: .390

Kobe Bryant FTR '06 - '13: .378

Not a very good example. at all. no offense, but they were completely different players tbh.

[juju151111]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1985&year_max=1990&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&birth_state=&college_id=&draft_year=&is_active=&debut_yr_nba_start=&debut_yr_nba_end=&debut_yr_aba_start=&debut_yr_aba_end=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&award=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws

^shot per game leaders '84-'90

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2010&year_max=2015&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&birth_state=&college_id=&draft_year=&is_active=&debut_yr_nba_start=&debut_yr_nba_end=&debut_yr_aba_start=&debut_yr_aba_end=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&award=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=&c1comp=gt&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws

^shot per game leaders '10-'15


Today's game is played at a slower pace. Stars play less minutes across the board, and take less shots.
Go look who played faster the 1988 bulls or the 2015 rockets. You clearly not understanding what Mj did has a bull wasn't the norm. Nobody but him and Karl malone (1season) averged 30 ppg in the 90s. The year he averged 37 nobody else was close to him. The bulls were a slow pace team similar to most teams today. He was still putting up those numbers.

[juju151111]

While I partially agree with you, I do have a few points I would like to make.

1. Personally, many people say pace doesent truly effect star scoring, and while the correlation might not be huge, it is foolish however to say that there ISNT a relationship. the correlation increases as the situation gets more extreme. good point about shots, which refutes this point completely.
2. One thing I would like to mention is that this depends on what team he plays in. realistically, Jordan imo was the best player of all time in transition, and Dipper/Phila's research supports this theory, as he shot something like 90% over a 132 game span in transition. for comparison, Lebron generally shoots somewhere in the 70s, even in 09, which imo is his peak year.
3. to all the people talking about how he would dominate because of spacing, defenses are obviously much more complicated today. not gonna go in depth on that lol. But tbh, He already attacked teh rim as good as anyone, what makes people think he would suddenly do better? what, does his percentage go from around 77% to 79% at the rim?
3.
I believe that while his raw stats might not be as impressive, because of minutes and pace, his impact would probably stay the same. After-all, he is far better than people like peak Kobe on offense, and obviously, was a monster defensively as well.
4.
Even now, people fail to realize the nuances of his game. I wont go into depth now, but in terms of his basketball IQ, I find it criminally underrated.
Agreed and another thing is Mj played in slow pace systems

[SHAQisGOAT]

Probably better, yup... But I wouldn't say that considerably so this discussion doesn't "matter" all that much to me...

[DonDadda59]

Blatant disrespect for Harden. Can't take anything you say seriously. Defenses changed slower than the rule changes. After 2008 perimeter players scoring dropped off again as teams figured out how to use defensive freedom to slow down guys like that.

Except for those times that Dwyane Wade averaged 30 PPG in '09 and Durant averaged 30-32 PPG in several seasons. :oldlol:

Replace Durant's current/former teammates last season with 28-30 year old Kobe and Iverson and you see 2 guys easily put up 32+ PPG.


Today's game is played at a slower pace. Stars play less minutes across the board, and take less shots.

The late 90s was the slowest paced era ever and a 33-35 year old MJ was still getting off shots and winning scoring titles on championship teams. No change in pace, rules, etc is going to deter the GOAT from getting buckets.


Kobe Bryant FTR '97 - '04: .390

Kobe Bryant FTR '06 - '13: .378

You added the years he spent on the bench, that skews things. Here's a more in depth look:


Star perimeter players who played under both sets of rules (3 sec/handchecking/no handchecking):

Allen Iverson

'96-'01 (handchecking, no 3-sec rule): .385 [.449 peak]
'01-'05 (handchecking, 3-sec rule): .391 [.432 peak]
'05-'09 (no handchecking, 3-sec rule): .468 [.512 peak *full season*]

*AI, drafted in 1996, had his career scoring high in 2006 (33 PPG) just after handchecking on the perimeter was completely eliminated.

Kobe Bryant (As a Starter)

'98-'01: (handchecking, no 3-sec rule): .361 [.375 peak]
'01-'05: (handchecking, 3-sec rule): .415 [.502 peak]
'05-'10: (no handchecking, 3-sec rule): .401 [.437 peak]

*Kobe, drafted in 1996, had his career scoring high in 2006 (35.4 PPG) just after handchecking on the perimeter was completely eliminated

You're welcome :cheers:

[ralph_i_el]

While I partially agree with you, I do have a few points I would like to make.

1. Personally, many people say pace doesent truly effect star scoring, and while the correlation might not be huge, it is foolish however to say that there ISNT a relationship. the correlation increases as the situation gets more extreme. good point about shots, which refutes this point completely.
2. One thing I would like to mention is that this depends on what team he plays in. realistically, Jordan imo was the best player of all time in transition, and Dipper/Phila's research supports this theory, as he shot something like 90% over a 132 game span in transition. for comparison, Lebron generally shoots somewhere in the 70s, even in 09, which imo is his peak year.
3. to all the people talking about how he would dominate because of spacing, defenses are obviously much more complicated today. not gonna go in depth on that lol. But tbh, He already attacked teh rim as good as anyone, what makes people think he would suddenly do better? what, does his percentage go from around 77% to 79% at the rim?
3.
I believe that while his raw stats might not be as impressive, because of minutes and pace, his impact would probably stay the same. After-all, he is far better than people like peak Kobe on offense, and obviously, was a monster defensively as well.
4.
Even now, people fail to realize the nuances of his game. I wont go into depth now, but in terms of his basketball IQ, I find it criminally underrated.

:confusedshrug: I agree with all of this.

I've said like 3 times in this thread that MJ would clearly be the best in the league.

I just think it's foolish to think that he would score 40ppg :confusedshrug: Like you said, he shot like 90% on fastbreaks....in the 80's.....where there were a ton of fastbreaks....

Durant is basically is Ralph Sampson size, with handles and one of the best J's of all time and he will never get close to a 40ppg season.

[ralph_i_el]

The late 90s was the slowest paced era ever and a 33-35 year old MJ was still getting off shots and winning scoring titles on championship teams. No change in pace, rules, etc is going to deter the GOAT from getting buckets.



You added the years he spent on the bench, that skews things. Here's a more in depth look:


Star perimeter players who played under both sets of rules (3 sec/handchecking/no handchecking):

Allen Iverson

'96-'01 (handchecking, no 3-sec rule): .385 [.449 peak]
'01-'05 (handchecking, 3-sec rule): .391 [.432 peak]
'05-'09 (no handchecking, 3-sec rule): .468 [.512 peak *full season*]

*AI, drafted in 1996, had his career scoring high in 2006 (33 PPG) just after handchecking on the perimeter was completely eliminated.

Kobe Bryant (As a Starter)

'98-'01: (handchecking, no 3-sec rule): .361 [.375 peak]
'01-'05: (handchecking, 3-sec rule): .415 [.502 peak]
'05-'10: (no handchecking, 3-sec rule): .401 [.437 peak]

*Kobe, drafted in 1996, had his career scoring high in 2006 (35.4 PPG) just after handchecking on the perimeter was completely eliminated

You're welcome :cheers:

But MJ wasn't anywhere close to 40ppg in the 90's :facepalm you're just proving my point.


And yes, right after handchecking was removed perimeter players scored more....until defenses figured out how to take advantage of the new freedoms allowed with the removal of illegal D. That was around '08.

And you have to account for Bryant and Iverson getting more veteran calls as they got older. Less athletic finishes, more fouls drawn.

[DonDadda59]

:confusedshrug: I agree with all of this.

I've said like 3 times in this thread that MJ would clearly be the best in the league.

I just think it's foolish to think that he would score 40ppg :confusedshrug:

Durant is basically is Ralph Sampson size, with handles and one of the best J's of all time and he will never get close to a 40ppg season.

*If Ralph Sampson was as weak as a newborn kitten and couldn't get post position against Joe Dumars*


:yaohappy:


But MJ wasn't anywhere close to 40ppg in the 90's you're just proving my point.

You don't have a point. You're just spewing nonsensical shit that has been disproven by reality.

Of course a 35 year old Jordan wouldn't come close to 40 PPG in any era. But Captain Marvel put up 37 PPG with the next closest scorer being 8 PPG lower. Give Cap the sort of freedom and ridiculous free throw rate as prime James Kukoc and he pushses 40.


And yes, right after handchecking was removed perimeter players scored more....until defenses figured out how to take advantage of the new freedoms allowed with the removal of illegal D. That was around '08

None of that is true.

And after '08 Wade and Durant had several 30-32 PPG seasons, Durant having done it just a season ago on a contender with the reigning scoring champion on his squad.

[juju151111]

But MJ wasn't anywhere close to 40ppg in the 90's :facepalm you're just proving my point.


And yes, right after handchecking was removed perimeter players scored more....until defenses figured out how to take advantage of the new freedoms allowed with the removal of illegal D. That was around '08.

And you have to account for Bryant and Iverson getting more veteran calls as they got older. Less athletic finishes, more fouls drawn.
Mj had a better team in the 90s but he still averged 33ppg one year

[ralph_i_el]

*If Ralph Sampson was as weak as a newborn kitten and couldn't get post position against Joe Dumars*


:yaohappy:



You don't have a point. You're just spewing nonsensical shit that has been disproven by reality.

Of course a 35 year old Jordan wouldn't come close to 40 PPG in any era. But Captain Marvel put up 37 PPG with the next closest scorer being 8 PPG lower. Give Cap the sort of freedom and ridiculous free throw rate as prime James Kukoc and he pushses 40.



None of that is true.

And after '08 Wade and Durant had several 30-32 PPG seasons, Durant having done it just a season ago on a contender with the reigning scoring champion on his squad.


I can't keep arguing with morons. Free throw rate is FTA/FGA. It's useful because players attempt shots that don't end up being counted as FGA because of fouls. free throw rate just measures the balance between shots and free throws. It doesn't mean MJ is going to score a ton more points. If he had a higher free throw rate it likely would mean he was getting fewer FGA and instead getting more FTA, but since he was so efficient from the field, it wouldn't really impact his overall efficiency that much.

To score 40ppg, he'd have increase his already historic usg% by a substantial amount, or increase his overall efficiency to unprecedented levels for a high usg% player. Substantially higher than guys like Harden, who already pushes efficiency to insane levels by only shooting layups+freethrows+and 3's


even if MJ lead the league by a huge margin in mid range by shooting like 55%....a substantial improvement on his actual numbers (for reference, spot up guys like Al Horford or Dirk have been leading the league shooting close to 50% from midrange) that would keep his efficiency from reaching the levels necessary to score 40ppg.

He's not taking 30 shots per game, and he's not shooting 70 TS%

no 40 point season. The only way that's possible is if he was on the 6er's and they only wanted to win 25 games with the GOAT.

[Rocketswin2013]

Bryant's % at the rim '01 - '04: .640%

Bryant's % at the rim '06 - '13: .635%

And if anyone wants to make a claim about Bryant slashing less in the 10's or any other point. He had a .501 ftr in 1998 as an all-star, and a .437 one in 2004. You can really use these splits and make them look any way you want. The fact is, Bryant's slashing game difference between the "eras" isn't statistically significant.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

*If Ralph Sampson was as weak as a newborn kitten and couldn't get post position against Joe Dumars*


:yaohappy:



You don't have a point. You're just spewing nonsensical shit that has been disproven by reality.

Of course a 35 year old Jordan wouldn't come close to 40 PPG in any era. But Captain Marvel put up 37 PPG with the next closest scorer being 8 PPG lower. Give Cap the sort of freedom and ridiculous free throw rate as prime James Kukoc and he pushses 40.



None of that is true.

And after '08 Wade and Durant had several 30-32 PPG seasons, Durant having done it just a season ago on a contender with the reigning scoring champion on his squad.

Technically, captain marvel represent multiple characters in the fiction universe, some female.

Also, I don't think the arguement is that if Jordan COULD average 40. He could probably average it in 91, in expense of his fg%
(To get 37 PPg, he would only need to make 1.4 in 3.2 shots, in a per 36 basis, and his fg% would still be above 50)

My arguement is that it might not be effective, this is similar to my arguement said against certain Kobe stans, and against wilt.

Effective means in the sense that it's the best use of the players talents.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Agreed and another thing is Mj played in slow pace systems

The thing is, the gap is probably closed when you factor in 3 point shooting, which increases the pace of most teams.

[DonDadda59]

I can't keep arguing with morons. Free throw rate is FTA/FGA. It's useful because players attempt shots that don't end up being counted as FGA because of fouls. free throw rate just measures the balance between shots and free throws. It doesn't mean MJ is going to score a ton more points. If he had a higher free throw rate it likely would mean he was getting fewer FGA and instead getting more FTA, but since he was so efficient from the field, it wouldn't really impact his overall efficiency that much.

To score 40ppg, he'd have increase his already historic usg% by a substantial amount, or increase his overall efficiency to unprecedented levels for a high usg% player. Substantially higher than guys like Harden, who already pushes efficiency to insane levels by only shooting layups+freethrows+and 3's


even if MJ lead the league by a huge margin in mid range by shooting like 55%....a substantial improvement on his actual numbers (for reference, spot up guys like Al Horford or Dirk have been leading the league shooting close to 50% from midrange) that would keep his efficiency from reaching the levels necessary to score 40ppg.

He's not taking 30 shots per game, and he's not shooting 70 TS%

no 40 point season. The only way that's possible is if he was on the 6er's and they only wanted to win 25 games with the GOAT.

Broseph, Kobe Beans Bryant averaged 35.4 PPG on a playoff team after the rule changes. He took 27 FGA, shooting 45% FG, .559 TS%, with only a .377 FTr.

If Captain Marvel on a shitty team takes full advantage of the rules and gets those James Kukoc FTr while taking a shot or more than Beans while maintaining similar shooting #s... He's getting 40 :crazysam:

[90sgoat]

Posters like 'ralph' are willfully liars. They full well know that DonDadda has ethered them but tomorrow they will continue to lie.

The mark of the internet troll, a low grade case of sociopathy.

[juju151111]

I can't keep arguing with morons. Free throw rate is FTA/FGA. It's useful because players attempt shots that don't end up being counted as FGA because of fouls. free throw rate just measures the balance between shots and free throws. It doesn't mean MJ is going to score a ton more points. If he had a higher free throw rate it likely would mean he was getting fewer FGA and instead getting more FTA, but since he was so efficient from the field, it wouldn't really impact his overall efficiency that much.

To score 40ppg, he'd have increase his already historic usg% by a substantial amount, or increase his overall efficiency to unprecedented levels for a high usg% player. Substantially higher than guys like Harden, who already pushes efficiency to insane levels by only shooting layups+freethrows+and 3's


even if MJ lead the league by a huge margin in mid range by shooting like 55%....a substantial improvement on his actual numbers (for reference, spot up guys like Al Horford or Dirk have been leading the league shooting close to 50% from midrange) that would keep his efficiency from reaching the levels necessary to score 40ppg.

He's not taking 30 shots per game, and he's not shooting 70 TS%

no 40 point season. The only way that's possible is if he was on the 6er's and they only wanted to win 25 games with the GOAT.
Bro 34year old Mj was at a similar midrange to Dirk. Mj at 34

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Broseph, Kobe Beans Bryant averaged 35.4 PPG on a playoff team after the rule changes. He took 27 FGA, shooting 45% FG, .559 TS%, with only a .377 FTr.

If Captain Marvel on a shitty team takes full advantage of the rules and gets those James Kukoc FTr while taking a shot or more than Beans while maintaining similar shooting #s... He's getting 40 :crazysam:

Once again, my arguement is based in the actual efficiency of volume scoring. Scoring something like 45 PPg on 53% will always be beneficial to your team , though it can be misleading.

A certain player you hate is my reasoning for this

[ClipperRevival]

On a bad team in this era, I could see MJ possibly averaging 40 ppg. But only on a bad team where his usage would be very high like in 1987.

But this is the era to play in if you are an athletic, wing player. No hand checking, no physical contact allowed with great spacing and not many great rim protectors. MJ proved he was the GOAT at attacking the basket and finishing in a much tougher era for wing players.

[Sarcastic]

Posters like 'ralph' are willfully liars. They full well know that DonDadda has ethered them but tomorrow they will continue to lie.

The mark of the internet troll, a low grade case of sociopathy.

More like willfully stupid.

Jordan would absolutely torch the modern era. Anyone who says otherwise is only claiming he can't because they are too young to have watched him and don't want to believe someone they didn't have a chance to see was that good. He is the absolute GOAT and would dominate any era.

[Levity]

surround him with shooters and a stretch 4, he'd excel substantially in this league. double him, and pay the 3 ball price. single cover him, and he'll score on you. sounds simple, but it sort of is. He'd midrange all over the NBA's face.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

People REALLY need to stop looking at the tail end of an arguement and looking out of context,

Ralph said Jordan would still be great, just that he would not average 40.

Imo, considering he averaged 37 one year, if he fell to a worse team, then sure I could see it.

But ask yourself this, how much did mj, in the regular season, score per game at his peak?

[juju151111]

The thing is, the gap is probably closed when you factor in 3 point shooting, which increases the pace of most teams.
Hmm no they were still slow in the late 90s when 3s doubled from the 80s

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Hmm no they were still slow in the late 90s when 3s doubled from the 80s

But it's still not used as much as it is today.

[SamuraiSWISH]

He would get more foul calls, that much is obvious. Spacing feels better today, so Im sure he would have developed a decent 3 point shot.
All true apart from the fact MJ did at worst have a decent three ball from 1990 forward. It's hyperbole when people want to make it sound like it was a visible weakness in his game. It wasn't. At worst it was average.

And what are you on about less minutes and more modern training? He didn't play THAT long ago. And his trainer, Grover, was ahead of his time. In fact he's still the best in the business. MJ didn't need to improve in that regard after he started weight lifting to build his upper body to sustain more late season physical punishment.

Some players today are too big or built or heavy for the fast cutting game they play. Thus excessive lower body injuries and poor stamina in some cases. Actually one of the negative effects of concentration on weight lifting.

It's basketball not football. Iverson and KD didn't need to be huge to dominate.

[Blue&Orange]

the paint is clogged

PGs are the main ball dominant guys now

HOw hard can it be to use the brain, paint is clogged but PG's are the main ball dominant guys?

Makes sense.


The rules have also obliterated post ups which were a big part of MJ's game, especially during the 2nd three-peat.

Too bad that everyone saw the corpse of Andre Miller multiple times rape people left and right at the post with these "new rules"

People don't post up because of the rules, they don't post up because they can't, they don't have the skills. This is the most dumbed down era of NBA basketball since the 60's.


Reading the first page was enough.


If we think Jordan averaged 37 points for a season and 33\8\8 another, it becomes almost hilarious to think what he would put up in such a fluffy era.

[Levity]

yeah, i also disagree with the "post ups" excuse. Are we talking big men or guards? If the latter, just look at kobe (dont care if he was efficient from there last season or not), he still plays 50% of his possessions in the post. why? because he has the ability to do so, both as a scorer and playmaker. MJ is the same way. he'll get his ISO's in the post if teams allow, but if they decide to hard double as soon as he touches the ball there, he'll kick or skip it to the open man.

More teams would incorporate that into their offense if they had players who could legitimately play from there

[3ball]

this is a 3-point shooters league

the paint is clogged


oxymoron

[Soundwave]

There's no era in the NBA where a prime Jordan wouldn't score his minimum 30+ ppg.

There's no magic defensive scheme or zone or Tom Thibodou voodoo that changes this fundamental fact:

There's no one at 6-6 or taller that can stay in front of Jordan (prime) laterally.

The man had the quickness of a extremely fast 6'0 or 6'1 player in a 6'6 frame with a large wing span to go with that.

So you can either put a taller defender on him and get blown past, or a smaller defender who's quicker but one he can easily shoot over.

If you can't stop the guy from getting his shot off, you're not going to stop him from scoring. Again. And again. And again.

Combine the speed with incredible agility and leaping ability means he could manufacture a quality shot virtually every time down the floor.

[Kvnzhangyay]

On a good team? Probably less ppg and more assists. Pretty sure a coach nowadays would utilize him differently nowadays, considering a lot hate midrange shots and emphasize on finding the open threeball

so maybe 31/5/9

[ClipperRevival]

There's no era in the NBA where a prime Jordan wouldn't score his minimum 30+ ppg.

There's no magic defensive scheme or zone or Tom Thibodou voodoo that changes this fundamental fact:

There's no one at 6-6 or taller that can stay in front of Jordan (prime) laterally.

The man had the quickness of a extremely fast 6'0 or 6'1 player in a 6'6 frame with a large wing span to go with that.

So you can either put a taller defender on him and get blown past, or a smaller defender who's quicker but one he can easily shoot over.

If you can't stop the guy from getting his shot off, you're not going to stop him from scoring. Again. And again. And again.

Combine the speed with incredible agility and leaping ability means he could manufacture a quality shot virtually every time down the floor.

:applause: I always say that his quickness is the most underrated and also the most devastating part of his game. As you said, his quickness for a guy 6'6" was simply off the charts. Looked more like an elite, 6'0" PG's quickness. From the triple threat position, a single defender really had no chance.

[dh144498]

he'd literally average 40-10-10 on 58% FG in this era.

[r0drig0lac]

There's no era in the NBA where a prime Jordan wouldn't score his minimum 30+ ppg.

There's no magic defensive scheme or zone or Tom Thibodou voodoo that changes this fundamental fact:

There's no one at 6-6 or taller that can stay in front of Jordan (prime) laterally.

The man had the quickness of a extremely fast 6'0 or 6'1 player in a 6'6 frame with a large wing span to go with that.

So you can either put a taller defender on him and get blown past, or a smaller defender who's quicker but one he can easily shoot over.

If you can't stop the guy from getting his shot off, you're not going to stop him from scoring. Again. And again. And again.

Combine the speed with incredible agility and leaping ability means he could manufacture a quality shot virtually every time down the floor.
word

[jstern]

No time to look at the stats, but you guys forget that when Jordan decided to make the 3 point shot a part of his game for the 1989 season, he shot 37 or 38%. He made it part of his game, unlike previous season only shooting around 20 to 30 3 pointers per season. That were probably mostly bailouts.

Jordan doesn't live in a vacume. He's abnormal drive to win is what developed his game, and if you put him in any era, especially one with permeter friendly rules, he's going to adjust to that style and dominate. Since it's all abuot winning for him.

Also remember a couple of years ago in the playoff, where the way the 3 point shot was called was modified, and we had record 4 point plays? Defenders now have to be more careful? Easier shots.

[HighFlyer23]

In this league where an effeminate mixed nikka is the MVP?

Jordan would murk this league

[inclinerator]

the general consensus is worse

[Rocketswin2013]

There's no era in the NBA where a prime Jordan wouldn't score his minimum 30+ ppg.

There's no magic defensive scheme or zone or Tom Thibodou voodoo that changes this fundamental fact:

There's no one at 6-6 or taller that can stay in front of Jordan (prime) laterally.

The man had the quickness of a extremely fast 6'0 or 6'1 player in a 6'6 frame with a large wing span to go with that.

So you can either put a taller defender on him and get blown past, or a smaller defender who's quicker but one he can easily shoot over.

If you can't stop the guy from getting his shot off, you're not going to stop him from scoring. Again. And again. And again.

Combine the speed with incredible agility and leaping ability means he could manufacture a quality shot virtually every time down the floor.
Eh. You're right. Almost all 6'0" and 6'6" would get destroyed by him. But intermediate guards (6'3" Gary Payton, 6'3" Joe Dumars) gave him the most trouble.

I think Tony Allen would have the perfect blend of attributes to guard Jordan.

[dh144498]

Eh. You're right. Almost all 6'0" and 6'6" would get destroyed by him. But intermediate guards (6'3" Gary Payton, 6'3" Joe Dumars) gave him the most trouble.

I think Tony Allen would be the perfect blend of attributes to guard Jordan.

Tony Allen would hold him to 5 points on 20 FGA.

[ClipperRevival]

the general consensus is worse

Yeah, but that's limited to 13-15 year old LeBron fans who never saw MJ play.

[sportjames23]

Eh. You're right. Almost all 6'0" and 6'6" would get destroyed by him. But intermediate guards (6'3" Gary Payton, 6'3" Joe Dumars) gave him the most trouble.

I think Tony Allen would have the perfect blend of attributes to guard Jordan.


MJ would still burn TA. Allen is the best perimeter defender in the game today, but he wouldn't slow down the GOAT.

[Vaniiiia]

Yeah, but that's limited to 13-15 year old LeBron fans who never saw MJ play.
We all saw MJ get carried to multiple rings in the weak era of the 90's...

They almost won the ship without him. :oldlol:

MJ was just a chucker on a stacked team. Albeit, a very good chucker...

A lot better than Kobe but not quite the overall player LeBron is, or the all-around scorer that KD is.

He'd likely be third best player in todays game. There's no shame in that.

[sdot_thadon]

Eh. You're right. Almost all 6'0" and 6'6" would get destroyed by him. But intermediate guards (6'3" Gary Payton, 6'3" Joe Dumars) gave him the most trouble.

I think Tony Allen would have the perfect blend of attributes to guard Jordan.
I think Tony would have some success against mj, but it wouldn't be sustainable over the course of a series or anything like that. 2nd 3peat mj he'd probably give fits though. Seems like alot of people here forget 2nd 3peat was really an entirely different player.

[ClipperRevival]

We all saw MJ get carried to multiple rings in the weak era of the 90's...

They almost won the ship without him. :oldlol:

MJ was just a chucker on a stacked team. Albeit, a very good chucker...

A lot better than Kobe but not quite the overall player LeBron is, or the all-around scorer that KD is.

He'd likely be third best player in todays game. There's no shame in that.

I rest my case your honor.

[3ball]

or the all-around scorer that KD is.


This guy can't post, overpower inside, dominate the paint, or make shots under duress like MJ... It's not even close... Durant is a bailout offensive player - most of his offense is bail-out jumpshots.. Don't compare that type of limited, predictable repertoire to the unlimited things MJ did.





not quite the overall player LeBron is,


MJ's style was more effective.. First of all, he had good efficiency at high shot volume, since his efficiency was elite at the additional 1-on-1 and midrange required of high volume shooters. Otoh, we saw Lebron's 1-on-1 fail in the 2015 Finals because he COULDN'T shoot a good percentage at high volume - he's simply bad at the additional 1-on-1 and midrange required of high volume shooters - this is statistical fact.

In addition to shooting well at high volume, MJ's style also succeeded because his buckets usually came AFTER running off-ball, so he didn't use live-dribbles as often - his lack of ball-dominance allowed the Bulls to run an equal-opportunity offense (triangle) and therefore the best brand of basketball.. This is another stark contrast from today's so-called best player - Lebron's ball-dominance prevents his teams from running equal-opportunity offenses and the best brand of basketball, which allows equal or less-talented opponents to pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

Also, there's a 3rd reason why MJ's style ended up working for the Bulls - MJ's off-ball style of play increased the APG and assist percentage of teammates like Pippen, while Lebron's ball-dominance craters (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841) the APG and assist % of his teammates (Wade, Love, Bosh, Kyrie, Mo Williams).. With Lebron's style decreasing the assists of teammates, it's no surprise that all his TEAMS have lower assist frequency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446).

[Vaniiiia]

Sorry to upset you in the other thread 3ball, but i'm not interested in reading your garbage copy pastas.

MJ would die in KD's situation without a head coach and with an inefficient, erratic second option and nobody inside to take the attention off of him.

KD without Westbrook was doubled more than MJ ever was, and he still put up arguably the most impressive season in the modern era.

That's when I knew he was better than Jordan.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

MJ would still burn TA. Allen is the best perimeter defender in the game today, but he wouldn't slow down the GOAT.

IMO, people overrate Payton's defense on Jordan

Jordan averaged 30.5ppg on decent shooting (48%) in the regular season.

In that playoffs, in my opinion, Jordan was basically a shadow of his former self (that season in general imo).

That being said, Ill say one thing.

While Jordan, and by extention, many players are more talented from that era, are more talented than some of the players of today (though we are unfortunate with injuries today, and tbh, imo, 4 of the top 15 peak wise are from the 2000s-2015 era (namely, Shaq, Lebron, Duncan, KG, and I am REALLY high on Curry, after taking part in the realgm peaks project. just sayin, some wilt proppers that try to diss realgm are bull-sh*tters. like, that Darkjaws dumb@$$ is a hypocritical piece of $hit)


However, I will say this, I believe that even though Jordan might be more successful in this era (I think no handchecking would help him, offensively, but more advanced defenses will cancel that out, so it will more or less be the same. spacing might help him, as I thinik he will be a good 3 point shooter in teh modern era, as he will probably tweak his stroke a bit)

But I definately believe that the teams today are far better than the teams of the past, other than some super teams of course.

Like, alot of people try to bash the warriors, but people dont understand that they won by an average of 7.8 points, In the playoffs.

In my research, even the top ATG teams rarely have higher "point differentials" than 10. the bulls in the 72 win season had a 10.6+ win mark.
Yes, pace played a part in this, but still, they were deserved champions. people who are saying the finals are rigged are absolutely wankers.

[warriorfan]

Sorry to upset you in the other thread 3ball, but i'm not interested in reading your garbage copy pastas.

MJ would die in KD's situation without a head coach and with an inefficient, erratic second option and nobody inside to take the attention off of him.

KD without Westbrook was doubled more than MJ ever was, and he still put up arguably the most impressive season in the modern era.

That's when I knew he was better than Jordan.

meltdown

MJ plus Harden and Westbrook = Dynasty

[dh144498]

Sorry to upset you in the other thread 3ball, but i'm not interested in reading your garbage copy pastas.

MJ would die in KD's situation without a head coach and with an inefficient, erratic second option and nobody inside to take the attention off of him.

KD without Westbrook was doubled more than MJ ever was, and he still put up arguably the most impressive season in the modern era.

That's when I knew he was better than Jordan.

meltdown

[Vaniiiia]

meltdown

MJ plus Harden and Westbrook = Dynasty
Ah, it's YOU again.... sigh.

Just suck my dick already, get it over with...

All these flirtatious replies from you. It's weird.

[G0ATbe]

Poor mans Wade. Not sure if that's better or worse to you.

[Fallen Angel]

sigh

[Hey Yo]

This guy can't post, overpower inside, dominate the paint, or make shots under duress like MJ... It's not even close... Durant is a bailout offensive player - most of his offense is bail-out jumpshots.. Don't compare that type of limited, predictable repertoire to the unlimited things MJ did.



MJ's style was more effective.. First of all, he had good efficiency at high shot volume, since his efficiency was elite at the additional 1-on-1 and midrange required of high volume shooters. Otoh, we saw Lebron's 1-on-1 fail in the 2015 Finals because he COULDN'T shoot a good percentage at high volume - he's simply bad at the additional 1-on-1 and midrange required of high volume shooters - this is statistical fact.

In addition to shooting well at high volume, MJ's style also succeeded because his buckets usually came AFTER running off-ball, so he didn't use live-dribbles as often - his lack of ball-dominance allowed the Bulls to run an equal-opportunity offense (triangle) and therefore the best brand of basketball.. This is another stark contrast from today's so-called best player - Lebron's ball-dominance prevents his teams from running equal-opportunity offenses and the best brand of basketball, which allows equal or less-talented opponents to pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

Also, there's a 3rd reason why MJ's style ended up working for the Bulls - MJ's off-ball style of play increased the APG and assist percentage of teammates like Pippen, while Lebron's ball-dominance craters (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841) the APG and assist % of his teammates (Wade, Love, Bosh, Kyrie, Mo Williams).. With Lebron's style decreasing the assists of teammates, it's no surprise that all his TEAMS have lower assist frequency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446).
Maybe LeBron should have quit the league after his 3rd straight Finals appearance and came back refreshed 2ys later. Possibly would have shot better against GSW under that scenario.

LeBron showed he has the mental toughness to try to win 5 straight rings where MJ couldn't handle the pressure after 3 straight Finals and quit the league.

[warriorfan]

Maybe LeBron should have quit the league after his 3rd straight Finals appearance and came back refreshed 2ys later. Possibly would have shot better against GSW under that scenario.

LeBron showed he has the mental toughness to try to win 5 straight rings where MJ couldn't handle the pressure after 3 straight Finals and quit the league.

Brons mental toughness is underrated. It must be very hard to live with the shame after doing something like LeDecision.

[Vaniiiia]

Maybe LeBron should have quit the league after his 3rd straight Finals appearance and came back refreshed 2ys later. Possibly would have shot better against GSW under that scenario.

LeBron showed he has the mental toughness to try to win 5 straight rings where MJ couldn't handle the pressure after 3 straight Finals and quit the league.
Ether sauce with a side of WOAH BABY!

http://i36.tinypic.com/amxkbl.jpg

Down goes 3ball! Down goes 3ball!

[inclinerator]

lol at people saying mj would average 15 fts a game, it doesnt work like that after a while they just stop giving you calls even if they are fouls just look at lebron
even harden is maxed out at around 10 for the rs

his numbers would probably rival kobe's tbh not bad at all

[Crystallas]

MJ had the global attention greater than anyone today in a social media world and constantly was under the microscope from slurpers and haters alike. Hell, he had more global attention than any athlete to ever live.

He would be more dominant, but that is not my question. I want to know if he would get as much attention today, as he did. Isn't he still one of the top paid athletes in his retirement? That is a very very scary thought. Killer instinct vs a league full of players who cry when the ref doesn't bail them out and only play hard for contracts. Yeah, no brainer.

[OldSchoolBBall]

his numbers would probably rival kobe's tbh not bad at all

:roll:

[Beastmode88]

Maybe LeBron should have quit the league after his 3rd straight Finals appearance and came back refreshed 2ys later. Possibly would have shot better against GSW under that scenario.

LeBron showed he has the mental toughness to try to win 5 straight rings where MJ couldn't handle the pressure after 3 straight Finals and quit the league.

Guess he was tough enough to endure 4 finals losses as well.

[theoneneo]

Haha a prime Kobe would just about destroy this weak ass era and ya'll doubting Jordan :lol


Take the little run Westbrook had last season and realize Jordan was twice the player he was.

[Round Mound]

40-43 PPG on 46% FG on a bad team 30-35 PPG on 49% FG on a good team.

Barkley (located 2nd in that shot chart after MJ) would also feast on this weak as defensive league. Older rules allowed way more contact.

[Smoke117]

40-43 PPG on 46% FG on a bad team 30-35 PPG on 49% FG on a good team.

Barkley (located 2nd in that shot chart after MJ) would also feast on this weak as defensive league. Older rules allowed way more contact.

They don't treat the rules the same though...they let the big boys get away with a lot more when they are defending each other than they let perimeters get away with.

[aj1987]

Haha a prime Kobe would just about destroy this weak ass era and ya'll doubting Jordan :lol


Take the little run Westbrook had last season and realize Jordan was twice the player he was.
Kobe was in his prime/peak like 7 years ago. The **** you talking about?

[Dragonyeuw]

"several times worse than MJ"
maybe if you're talking about the full package (D)

But Harden's greatest strength is his ability to shoot 3's off the bounce, and his great floor vision. This guarantees him 1-on-1's with a defender that has to guard him at the 3 point line. He's absolutely built for this era.


Mid range and post game didn't go anywhere.....but if MJ is getting most of his points from those area's, his team is going to be playing at a pretty slow pace. No 40ppg season.

It's fair to assume MJ would tailor certain aspects of his game, like 3point shooting, to adjust to this era. Even if he didn't, after 1990 or so there wasn't anything wrong with his 3point shooting. It wasn't a strength in terms of volume and efficiency, but you couldn't just leave him open at the 3pt line. As it is, there are two recent examples of scoring champions in Wade and Westbrook who were primarily slashers with streaky mid-range( pretty much all of Wade's best seasons were when his mid-range game was on). There is no reason to think with MJ's complete scoring set that he'd be any worse. His mid-range would still be elite, his post-game would be elite, his slashing, quickness at his size would still be elite. His off-ball, catch and shoot ability and quick reactions to double teams would counter modern defensive schemes.

Would he average 40 or close to it? Under certain considerations, like playing for a shit team, sure. Durant, prime Kobe, MJ all had the complete scoring arsenals to score at that level depending on the situation.

[3ball]

As it is, there are two recent examples of scoring champions in Wade and Westbrook who were primarily slashers



Wade and Westbrook were scoring champs in 2009 and 2015, even though they suck at 3-pointers... Also, their midrange is far worse than MJ's, and their overall athleticism doesn't compare either.

Wade and Westbrook's league-leading scoring is all we need to know MJ would lead the league in scoring every year, just like he did in his era.

[Indian guy]

Seems like alot of people here forget 2nd 3peat was really an entirely different player.

Ummm, not really. 2nd 3peat MJ still retained 85-90% of his game-athleticism, IMO. And with hand checking banned starting 94-95, you barely even notice that difference. In some ways, he was blowing past guys with even more ease and really, playing the same game he played in the early 90's, except he became even more efficient in using the triangle to his benefit. MJ actually has a higher usg% during the 2nd 3peat than first and really, if you watch both versions, he is generating shots with more ease and is a more dominant feature in the Bulls offense from 96-98. In a 2013 interview with NBA2K, he considered 1996 to be his peak and I can actually see where he's coming from.

I think impact wise, MJ would be the same player today. Stylistically, you'd definitely see more 3pters and more pick n roll from him. His primary means of attacking in his career was from the triple-threat on either wing. But with no more illegal defense, it's just a lot harder to isolate players today and give 'em a straight-line path to the basket. Teams are always overloading the strong side/shading against wings today. So I see his game including more action from the top of the key, which is how most perimeter players play today. What would work to his benefit, of course, is the complete lack of physicality. Hand checking was already banned in 1995, and the NBA has systematically eliminated all physicality on the perimeter between the 10-year period since(95-2005). His quickness would be a complete nightmare to deal with.

[ralph_i_el]

Wade and Westbrook were scoring champs in 2009 and 2015, even though they suck at 3-pointers... Also, their midrange is far worse than MJ's, and their overall athleticism doesn't compare either.

Wade and Westbrook's league-leading scoring is all we need to know MJ would lead the league in scoring every year, just like he did in his era.

But they didn't get anywhere close to 40:facepalm You're arguing against assertions that no one has made. Everyone in this thread thinks he would be the MVP and lead in scoring. Some of us just don't believe that he'd score at such an insane level.

Last season was weak in terms of the scoring title, because Durant was out and Curry only played 32 MPG. Still, the scoring leader only score 28ppg, and you think MJ would come in and score 40 :rolleyes:

I know you know more about MJ than me, actually being an adult (hopefully) while he was in his prime....but I've watched a ton of old MJ games via the internet and NBATV Hardwood Classics, and he's not that much better as a scorer than Durant. He's not going to come into the league and have significantly higher USG% and TS% than Durant.

[juju151111]

But they didn't get anywhere close to 40:facepalm You're arguing against assertions that no one has made. Everyone in this thread thinks he would be the MVP and lead in scoring. Some of us just don't believe that he'd score at such an insane level.

Last season was weak in terms of the scoring title, because Durant was out and Curry only played 32 MPG. Still, the scoring leader only score 28ppg, and you think MJ would come in and score 40 :rolleyes:

I know you know more about MJ than me, actually being an adult (hopefully) while he was in his prime....but I've watched a ton of old MJ games via the internet and NBATV Hardwood Classics, and he's not that much better as a scorer than Durant. He's not going to come into the league and have significantly higher USG% and TS% than Durant.
Mj wasn't the norm. He won a scoring title in the modern era averging 7 ppg more rhen the next guy. He was the only one averging 30 ppg in 90s except Karl. Mj had a high motor. He was nickname the rabbit for that. He would stay up late before playoff games gambling. He would play golf etc.... Mj had a higher usage % has 33-35years old then his younger days. He was averging 40 mpg.

[ClipperRevival]

But they didn't get anywhere close to 40:facepalm You're arguing against assertions that no one has made. Everyone in this thread thinks he would be the MVP and lead in scoring. Some of us just don't believe that he'd score at such an insane level.

Last season was weak in terms of the scoring title, because Durant was out and Curry only played 32 MPG. Still, the scoring leader only score 28ppg, and you think MJ would come in and score 40 :rolleyes:

I know you know more about MJ than me, actually being an adult (hopefully) while he was in his prime....but I've watched a ton of old MJ games via the internet and NBATV Hardwood Classics, and he's not that much better as a scorer than Durant. He's not going to come into the league and have significantly higher USG% and TS% than Durant.

If you didn't watch him live, you can't fully appreciate his greatness. Without watching him live, you couldn't truly appreciate the drive and will he had and how badly he wanted to destroy opponents. Not to mention, he probably had the best stamina of any player. So he was just relentless for 82 games and the playoffs.

The guy won 10 scoring titles in his 11 full seasons with the Bulls. The only time not winning it his rookie season and he averaged 28.2 ppg. The guy was simply on a different level above everyone else as a player and scorer.

In this era, where the rules are tailor made for athletic, wing players, the guy would've had a good shot at averaging 40 ppg on a bad team. He averaged 37.1 ppg in a tougher era for wing players. I don't see why he couldn't go up 3 more points, especially given the emphasis on the 3 today, which would help his point totals go up quickly.

[3ball]

MJ isn't that much better as a scorer than Durant.. Durant averaged 32 ppg in 2014 and MJ can't do much better than that.


Durant averaged 32 ppg on a GOOD TEAM where he had to share shots, so he only got 20 shots per game.

Otoh, when MJ averaged 37 ppg, his team was horrible, which helped him shoot 28 times per game... On a horrible team in today's game where he didn't have to share shots like Durant, I see no reason why MJ couldn't average 37 ppg again, or more... Quite frankly, today's spacing would help him get shots off even easier and faster than he did in 1987.

Btw, MJ is a superior scorer to Durant because he's a FAR superior shot-maker at the rim - it's not close - he can overpower in the paint and at the rim, whereas Durant can't.





Westbrook was the scoring leader at only 28ppg, and you think MJ would come in and score 40


As for Westbrook... :facepalm ... He averaged 28 ppg as a HORRIFIC shooter:

0-3 feet: 58%


In 1992, MJ shot 74% at the rim (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=317950)

3-10 feet: 31%


In 1992, MJ shot 51.1% from midrange overall (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=317950).. In 1997, MJ's 5-9 ft percentage was 49% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)

10-16 feet: 40%


Again, in 1992, MJ shot 51.1% from midrange overall.. In 1997, MJ's 10-14 foot percentage was 52% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season))

16-23 feet: 36%


Again, in 1992, MJ shot 51.1% from midrange overall.. In 1997, Jordan's 15-19 ft percentage was 50%, and 40% from 20-24 ft)


Furthermore - you're not acknowledging that MJ was a 6'6" Westbrook - he got literally THREE TIMES as many dunks per year - Westbrook gets about 50 dunks a year, while MJ got 150 per year - this is statistical fact (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352399).. It's not remotely close between the two.. Can Westbrook do any of these plays (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=384007&page=4)??... Oh hell no.
.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Durant averaged 32 ppg on a GOOD TEAM where he had to share shots, so he only got 20 shots per game.

Otoh, when MJ averaged 37 ppg, his team was horrible, which helped him shoot 28 times per game... On a horrible team in today's game where he didn't have to share shots like Durant, I see no reason why MJ couldn't average 37 ppg again, or more... Quite frankly, today's spacing would help him get shots off even easier and faster than he did in 1987.

Btw, MJ is a superior scorer to Durant because he's a FAR superior shot-maker at the rim - it's not close - he can overpower in the paint and at the rim, whereas Durant can't.



As for Westbrook... :facepalm ... He averaged 28 ppg as a HORRIFIC shooter:

0-3 feet: 58%


In 1992, MJ shot 74% at the rim (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=317950)

3-10 feet: 31%


In 1992, MJ shot 51.1% from midrange overall (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=317950).. In 1997, MJ's 5-9 ft percentage was 49% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)

10-16 feet: 40%


Again, in 1992, MJ shot 51.1% from midrange overall.. In 1997, MJ's 10-14 foot percentage was 52% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season))

16-23 feet: 36%


Again, in 1992, MJ shot 51.1% from midrange overall.. In 1997, Jordan's 15-19 ft percentage was 50%, and 40% from 20-24 ft)


Furthermore - you're not acknowledging that MJ was a 6'6" Westbrook - he got literally THREE TIMES as many dunks per year - Westbrook gets about 50 dunks a year, while MJ got 150 per year - this is statistical fact (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352399).. It's not remotely close between the two.. Can Westbrook do any of these plays (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=384007&page=4)??... **** no.

I mean, what are we arguing?

him averaging 42ppg doesent make that hypothetical season better than his 91 season.

also, while I agree MJ is a better scorer, IIRC Durant shot 80% at the rim, which is higher than Shaq and Lebron (though in less volume)


MJ's 3-10 feet percentage is VERY impressive though.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Durant averaged 32 ppg on a GOOD TEAM where he had to share shots, so he only got 20 shots per game.

Otoh, when MJ averaged 37 ppg, his team was horrible, which helped him shoot 28 times per game... On a horrible team in today's game where he didn't have to share shots like Durant, I see no reason why MJ couldn't average 37 ppg again, or more... Quite frankly, today's spacing would help him get shots off even easier and faster than he did in 1987.

Btw, MJ is a superior scorer to Durant because he's a FAR superior shot-maker at the rim - it's not close - he can overpower in the paint and at the rim, whereas Durant can't.



As for Westbrook... :facepalm ... He averaged 28 ppg as a HORRIFIC shooter:

0-3 feet: 58%


In 1992, MJ shot 74% at the rim (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=317950)

3-10 feet: 31%


In 1992, MJ shot 51.1% from midrange overall (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=317950).. In 1997, MJ's 5-9 ft percentage was 49% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)

10-16 feet: 40%


Again, in 1992, MJ shot 51.1% from midrange overall.. In 1997, MJ's 10-14 foot percentage was 52% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season))

16-23 feet: 36%


Again, in 1992, MJ shot 51.1% from midrange overall.. In 1997, Jordan's 15-19 ft percentage was 50%, and 40% from 20-24 ft)


Furthermore - you're not acknowledging that MJ was a 6'6" Westbrook - he got literally THREE TIMES as many dunks per year - Westbrook gets about 50 dunks a year, while MJ got 150 per year - this is statistical fact (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352399).. It's not remotely close between the two.. Can Westbrook do any of these plays (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=384007&page=4)??... **** no.

I mean, what are we arguing?

him averaging 42ppg doesent make that hypothetical season better than his 91 season.

also, while I agree MJ is a better scorer, IIRC Durant shot 80% at the rim, which is higher than Shaq and Lebron (though in less volume)


MJ's 3-10 feet percentage is VERY impressive though.

in terms of pure ability, most talented bball player of all time.

Lebron, Shaq, and Wilt come close due to athleticism,

but Jordan is still, imo, impact wise (personally, I consider raw stats and volume scoring to be pure shite if it doesent help the team that much, nudge nudge Kobe) comfortably number 1.

[3ball]

also, while I agree MJ is a better scorer, IIRC Durant shot 80% at the rim, which is higher than Shaq and Lebron (though in less volume)


Are you saying Durant finishes better at the rim than MJ?.. Can Durant overpower defenders in the paint like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MaYccWpdZ4

:confusedshrug:


Or this:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-27-2015/zU1xdh.gif
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-25-2015/sKMzUP.gif


Durant can't overpower defenders like that.. And when does Durant ever need to take shots like these below?

http://i.imgur.com/yjM3Sgo.gif
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36YZvyvPL0I&t=7m14s

Never, because 3-point shooting draws defenders to the perimeter and leaves the paint open... In today's game, shots like the one above are considered bad shots because the spacing allows ball movement to generate better shots.. You'll never see Durant take shots like these, because the available spacing means he doesn't have to.
.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Are you saying Durant finishes better at the rim than MJ?.. Can Durant overpower defenders in the paint like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MaYccWpdZ4

:confusedshrug:


Or this:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-27-2015/zU1xdh.gif
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-25-2015/sKMzUP.gif


Durant can't overpower defenders like that.. And when does Durant ever need to take shots like these below?

http://i.imgur.com/yjM3Sgo.gif
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36YZvyvPL0I&t=7m14s

Never, because 3-point shooting draws defenders to the perimeter and leaves the paint open... In today's game, shots like the one above are considered bad shots because the spacing allows ball movement to generate better shots.. You'll never see Durant take shots like these, because the available spacing means he doesn't have to.
.

No, im not saying that. I said that volume means that MJ's is more impressive/effecient

Also, why didnt you post this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_RLjmI6fK4

[3ball]

No, im not saying that. I said that volume means that MJ's is more impressive/effecient

Also, why didnt you post this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_RLjmI6fK4


That's a great vid... The "total reverse" vid is pretty good too (all reverse layups):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vBc395dSg4

[90sgoat]

Box score watchers again:facepalm

About percentage at the rim.

MJ got to the rim a lot more than Durant, A LOT more. And he was able to finish at the rim from much more difficult positions.

Durant shoots many more jumpers and rarely goes to the rim. You have to look at these numbers in context. For a guy who drove as much as MJ, he has staggering percentages. Keep in mind this isn't Lebron fastbreaks, but half court, reverse layups, up and unders, twisting and turning AND in your face slams.

MJ is in another tier from Durant when it comes to finishing at the rim. The numbers mean NOTHING without CONTEXT.

[diamenz]

We all saw MJ get carried to multiple rings in the weak era of the 90's...

They almost won the ship without him. :oldlol:

MJ was just a chucker on a stacked team. Albeit, a very good chucker...

A lot better than Kobe but not quite the overall player LeBron is, or the all-around scorer that KD is.

He'd likely be third best player in todays game. There's no shame in that.

nt man. it was a nice try but it doesn't look like anyone took the bait this time.

[guy]

Its not like Jordan's 3 point shot was a weakness. Just wasn't a huge strength. Not including the shortened line years, he always averaged around 1 attempt per game, except for 90 and 93 when he shot around 3 per game. Not coincidentally, he shot 38% and 35% in those years. Those are good 3P shooting numbers. The other years he didn't shoot that well from 3. However, its obvious that he was a rhythm shooter, and when he did shoot more of them, he was better at it. On top of that, he would get to take advantage of more spacing in today's games, meaning less clogged lanes, and he would shoot at least 10 FTs per game, which wasn't the norm for him back then. He had a couple of seasons like that, but it was most around 7-8 per game. IMO, he'd probably be better offensively, maybe not as good defensively cause he can't be as physical, but still all-time great. I don't think his stats are really that different.

[DMAVS41]

But they didn't get anywhere close to 40:facepalm You're arguing against assertions that no one has made. Everyone in this thread thinks he would be the MVP and lead in scoring. Some of us just don't believe that he'd score at such an insane level.

Last season was weak in terms of the scoring title, because Durant was out and Curry only played 32 MPG. Still, the scoring leader only score 28ppg, and you think MJ would come in and score 40 :rolleyes:

I know you know more about MJ than me, actually being an adult (hopefully) while he was in his prime....but I've watched a ton of old MJ games via the internet and NBATV Hardwood Classics, and he's not that much better as a scorer than Durant. He's not going to come into the league and have significantly higher USG% and TS% than Durant.

Maybe, but it could swing the other way. MJ would simply abuse people in the half court and wing post. Given how important the 3 has become...teams might guard Jordan more the way the Warriors guarded Lebron in the finals.

If they did that....he'd average about 40.

If they doubled? He wouldn't score as much, but his team would get wide open 3's all night.

Whether he'd score 40 a game is an interesting discussion, but I think he'd be an even better player today because of the amount of space he'd have given the evolution of the game with the 3 point line.

Let MJ go to work? He'll kill you and foul your team out.
Double him and shade him all game? His team will get wide open 3's all night.

His team would be impossible to stop with a decent supporting cast.