Article: The Sinking Legacy of Kobe Bryant

[SsKSpurs21]

http://basketball.realgm.com/analysis/239283/The-Sinking-Legacy-Of-Kobe-Bryant

thoughts?

Underrated by Haters
Overrated by fanboys

basketball purists dont know where to put him based on the two polarizations.

[sportjames23]

This should be interesting.

[ShawkFactory]

Overrated by fanboys, who say top 5. Underrated by haters, who say out of the top 10.

Verdict? And where most more objective people put him? 6-9 range.

[Akrazotile]

When Melo was traded to the Knicks and I told people he wasnt really a superstar, they didnt believe me and said I was trolling.

When I signed up here in 2008 and have derided volume scoring and hero ball since the beginning, people always said I was being contrarian, until the metrics started coming out and the media narrative changed.

When I tell people Kobe is EASILY not Top 10, they say I'm a hater and pushing a gimmick. :facepalm Let's see who's right in time.


The thing is, I'm actually intelligent and give my own opinions, and USUALLY, theyre right. MOST people here simply repeat the current media narrative, and dont change their story until the media tells them to change it.


Bunch of herd animals I tell ya. Buncha sheep. Parrots.


Get on my level.

[Akrazotile]

Overrated by fanboys, who say top 5. Underrated by haters, who say out of the top 10.

Verdict? And where most more objective people put him? 6-9 range.

:facepalm

[Heavincent]

The basis of the article is a random poll on the RealGM forums. Who gives a shit.

[Asiantastic]

When Melo was traded to the Knicks and I told people he wasnt really a superstar, they didnt believe me and said I was trolling.

When I signed up here in 2008 and have derided volume scoring and hero ball since the beginning, people always said I was being contrarian, until the metrics started coming out and the media narrative changed.

When I tell people Kobe is EASILY not Top 10, they say I'm a hater and pushing a gimmick. :facepalm Let's see who's right in time.


The thing is, I'm actually intelligent and give my own opinions, and USUALLY, theyre right. MOST people here simply repeat the current media narrative, and dont change their story until the media tells them to change it.


Bunch of herd animals I tell ya. Buncha sheep. Parrots.


Get on my level.

You also said you're an up and coming actor in Hollywood. Look how far your word's gotten you.

[HOoopCityJones]

RealGM is made up of stat nerds who don't get pu$$y.

Most knowledgeable Basketball fans my ass. They prop up the numbers and their own self made statistics more so than the game itself.

[kennethgriffin]

only on message boards


in reality nobody cares about tim duncan


its just a bunch of guys who hate kobe ganging up on him and joining other players bandwaggon in spite of kobe


this article was posted on realgm.. theyre the biggest group of kobe haters because its all theyel allow on their site


i was banned my first day there. they dont tolerate any kobe fandom




go on the street and ask 10 people whos better... kobe or duncan... 10 out of 10 will say kobe


maybe 1 out of every 90-100 will say duncan

[r15mohd]

only on message boards


in reality nobody cares about tim duncan


its just a bunch of guys who hate kobe ganging up on him and joining other players bandwaggon in spite of kobe


this article was posted on realgm.. theyre the biggest group of kobe haters because its all theyel allow on their site


i was banned my first day there. they dont tolerate any kobe fandom




go on the street and ask 10 people whos better... kobe or duncan... 10 out of 10 will say kobe


maybe 1 out of every 90-100 will say duncan



they don't tolerate any fandom, and seeing how you post the sh!t out of Kobe here...that ban was well deserved lol


as for your latter...people on the "street" choose Kobe because of the flashiness associated with every streetball players style and being that "ooo and ahhh" type. but why would we ask any simpleton from the street to assess who's the better player...we have knowledgeable and tenured GMs, coaches, ex players, etc who primarily will tell you that Duncan is the better player, beginning to end. and I know you'll say how MJ said this about Kobe, and Magic, but they are parallels and biased in most regards as MJ touts SG's as the holy grail and Magic cant see any wrong with Laker-ites.

[Akrazotile]

You also said you're an up and coming actor in Hollywood. Look how far your word's gotten you.


Hey, I said USUALLY I'm right.

[SOD 21]

All this article shows is that Kobe Bryant has a lot of haters, it doesn't really have anything to do whether he deserves to be in the top 10 or not.

He should be correctly ranked somewhere towards the bottom end of the top 10, like 7th to 9th range. That's fair and accurate.

[Akrazotile]

only on message boards


in reality nobody cares about tim duncan


its just a bunch of guys who hate kobe ganging up on him and joining other players bandwaggon in spite of kobe


this article was posted on realgm.. theyre the biggest group of kobe haters because its all theyel allow on their site


i was banned my first day there. they dont tolerate any kobe fandom




go on the street and ask 10 people whos better... kobe or duncan... 10 out of 10 will say kobe


maybe 1 out of every 90-100 will say duncan




Meltdown

[r15mohd]

All this article shows is that Kobe Bryant has a lot of haters, it doesn't really have anything to do whether he deserves to be in the top 10 or not.

He should be correctly ranked somewhere towards the bottom end of the top 10, like 7th to 9th range. That's fair and accurate.


well they did indicate that this is about his ranking, and why many put him out is due to his last 3 years...so they do have it spot on if you're taking everything into account.

if we were to just rate peaks/success, the top 10 would look VERY different than the basis now

[dh144498]

When Melo was traded to the Knicks and I told people he wasnt really a superstar, they didnt believe me and said I was trolling.

When I signed up here in 2008 and have derided volume scoring and hero ball since the beginning, people always said I was being contrarian, until the metrics started coming out and the media narrative changed.

When I tell people Kobe is EASILY not Top 10, they say I'm a hater and pushing a gimmick. :facepalm Let's see who's right in time.


The thing is, I'm actually intelligent and give my own opinions, and USUALLY, theyre right. MOST people here simply repeat the current media narrative, and dont change their story until the media tells them to change it.


Bunch of herd animals I tell ya. Buncha sheep. Parrots.


Get on my level.


meltdown

[90sgoat]

When Melo was traded to the Knicks and I told people he wasnt really a superstar, they didnt believe me and said I was trolling.

When I signed up here in 2008 and have derided volume scoring and hero ball since the beginning, people always said I was being contrarian, until the metrics started coming out and the media narrative changed.

When I tell people Kobe is EASILY not Top 10, they say I'm a hater and pushing a gimmick. :facepalm Let's see who's right in time.


The thing is, I'm actually intelligent and give my own opinions, and USUALLY, theyre right. MOST people here simply repeat the current media narrative, and dont change their story until the media tells them to change it.


Bunch of herd animals I tell ya. Buncha sheep. Parrots.


Get on my level.

Sure Kobe isn't top 10, I agree.

Neither is Lebron.

Lebron is a much bigger fraud than Kobe. Lebron is basically just a top 25-30 player who have taken advantage of almost corrupt levels of refereeing and a set of rules tailor made for his particular strengths.

The truth is that Lebron does not win one single ring without massive and previously unseen ref help. The man pushes players away with his hands and arms in moves which are not even legal in football! He gets away with many blatant offensive charges every single gam.e. The team he plays on are allowed to play 'swarming' defense which in reality is fouling without being called.

Lebron is a massive fraud and in 20 years people will look at him with great doubt, who is this balding fool and why couldn't he win more, even with a top 3 SG of all time and an all star PF. And the conclusion will be, the man was a fraud, pushed by a league desperate to find a new Michael Jordan.

[Akrazotile]

meltdown


Meltdown

[dh144498]

Meltdown

meltdown

[Akrazotile]

meltdown


Boiled down: Meltdown.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Sure Kobe isn't top 10, I agree.

Neither is Lebron.

Lebron is a much bigger fraud than Kobe. Lebron is basically just a top 25-30 player who have taken advantage of almost corrupt levels of refereeing and a set of rules tailor made for his particular strengths.

The truth is that Lebron does not win one single ring without massive and previously unseen ref help. The man pushes players away with his hands and arms in moves which are not even legal in football! He gets away with many blatant offensive charges every single gam.e. The team he plays on are allowed to play 'swarming' defense which in reality is fouling without being called.

Lebron is a massive fraud and in 20 years people will look at him with great doubt, who is this balding fool and why couldn't he win more, even with a top 3 SG of all time and an all star PF. And the conclusion will be, the man was a fraud, pushed by a league desperate to find a new Michael Jordan.

Ugh. You don't even deserve a response

Personally, I have Kobe at 10, Lebron a little higher.
As for realgm, I'm a member there, and tbh, after reading some arguments there, my blatant homered is the only justification for Kobe being ahead of Garnett.
Who is criminally underrated

[KirbyPls]

Sure Kobe isn't top 10, I agree.

Neither is Lebron.

Lebron is a much bigger fraud than Kobe. Lebron is basically just a top 25-30 player who have taken advantage of almost corrupt levels of refereeing and a set of rules tailor made for his particular strengths.

The truth is that Lebron does not win one single ring without massive and previously unseen ref help. The man pushes players away with his hands and arms in moves which are not even legal in football! He gets away with many blatant offensive charges every single gam.e. The team he plays on are allowed to play 'swarming' defense which in reality is fouling without being called.

Lebron is a massive fraud and in 20 years people will look at him with great doubt, who is this balding fool and why couldn't he win more, even with a top 3 SG of all time and an all star PF. And the conclusion will be, the man was a fraud, pushed by a league desperate to find a new Michael Jordan.


Idiot.

[MEB2kDeez]

Sure Kobe isn't top 10, I agree.

Neither is Lebron.

Lebron is a much bigger fraud than Kobe. Lebron is basically just a top 25-30 player who have taken advantage of almost corrupt levels of refereeing and a set of rules tailor made for his particular strengths.

The truth is that Lebron does not win one single ring without massive and previously unseen ref help. The man pushes players away with his hands and arms in moves which are not even legal in football! He gets away with many blatant offensive charges every single gam.e. The team he plays on are allowed to play 'swarming' defense which in reality is fouling without being called.

Lebron is a massive fraud and in 20 years people will look at him with great doubt, who is this balding fool and why couldn't he win more, even with a top 3 SG of all time and an all star PF. And the conclusion will be, the man was a fraud, pushed by a league desperate to find a new Michael Jordan.
:facepalm

Ok.. Ok..

[HurricaneKid]

Wow. The LOLers in here are phenomenal.

[feyki]

Overrated by fanboys, who say top 5. Underrated by haters, who say out of the top 10.

Verdict? And where most more objective people put him? 6-9 range.
True. 9-10 with Hakeem.

[magnax1]

I feel like calling a blog post on realgm an article is a bit disengenuous.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

He's sitting at 10 for me right now.

No case for top 5, highest I could consider seeing him would be 8th.

[Dbrog]

Ugh. You don't even deserve a response

Personally, I have Kobe at 10, Lebron a little higher.
As for realgm, I'm a member there, and tbh, after reading some arguments there, my blatant homered is the only justification for Kobe being ahead of Garnett.
Who is criminally underrated

Genuinely interested in what their arguments are at realgm for KG. Don't get me wrong, KG is one of the most versatile players to ever lace em up (maybe THE most), but he's top 20 or 30 all-time. He was never really able to close games consistently on offense...but that wasn't really his game. I've always said he would have been the GOAT second option to a player like Kobe. Kobe's elite talent is scoring and 100% carrying his teams to victory it with it at times. KG simply couldn't do this minus a few exceptions. You didn't really want KG shooting his fadaway post shot to win the game on those wolves....you looked for a Cassell stepback or 3 or something. Again, KG was primarily a shooter rather than some power post player like Tim or Shaq. I suppose in a sense KG reminds me of someone like Drexler or even a Lebron. They will likely keep you in the game with their elite well-rounded games but you need someone to help em finish it.

[AlphaWolf24]

Kobe is the 2nd GOAT....( in fact that's how I will be referring to him from now on)

RealGM is notorious for hating Kobe...and the Lakers...( site was founded by a bunch of Dutch faqqits...who don't know sh!t about American basketball)


Kobe was already voted player of the 2000's....

Majority of fans ( not the 1% of online fans who argue over advanced stats) have him in the top 5 alltime players.

Bill Simmons a Boston Celtics fanatic?...wrote a book?....about Kobe?...so what?





- Larry Bird being ranked over Kobe....
https://media3.giphy.com/media/2XskdWz9y363OIIeLPq/giphy.gif

GTFO....even Larry Bird himself will tell Kobe is a better basketball player....who has had a better career.


- Kobe should be ranked anywhere from #2 - #6 alltime.....anything below that is just pure hatred. GOAT Laker.....

[kennethgriffin]

kobe has more 50,60,70,80 point games than larry birds entire career

and only 2 less 40 point games




in just 2 seasons of basketball


06,07 > 80,81,82,83,84,85,86,87,88,89,90,91,92


look it up. its true

[dh144498]

Boiled down: Meltdown.

reported for melting down.

[Akrazotile]

kobe has more 50,60,70,80 point games than larry birds entire career

and only 2 less 40 point games




in just 2 seasons of basketball


06,07 > 80,81,82,83,84,85,86,87,88,89,90,91,92


look it up. its true


Individual point totals arent as important in basketball as a random ignoramus unfamiliar with the sport might assume them to be. This has been demonstrated through countless examples in recent years.

Kobetards are the simple people who still cling to the ppg=everything idea bc its simple enough for their simple minds. And bc theyve already hitched the meaning and purpose of their life to kobe's wagon and are living vicariously thru him - so if he takes a hit, they take a hit. Thats why they go to such insane lengths to inflate his impact and importance. Thats literally what theyve committed to doing with their lives.


I mean... It is what it is.

[AlphaWolf24]

I actually have noticed IRL that the people who hated the 2nd GOAT.....are now starting to respect him even more.....

now that the 2nd GOAT is in the twilight of his career and still competing...

[catch24]

I posted there for a bit, but there are too many pretentious, stat mongers. Most arguments on there delve into Analytic Wars with little to no discussion about the ACTUAL game.

ISH has more trolls, no doubt, but there are more versatile posters as well. Nobody on there can break down the game like Kblaze does here, or be as entertaining as DonDadda even with his crazy MJ fandom... This place is loosely modded, but it beats having to deal with the gestapos over there (one-track minds and all).

Just my take

[feyki]

8 times top 2 in mvp votes , 7 times conference finals , 5 times nba finals , 3 times championship and all of them leading by Larry Legend. He hasn't sidekick rings like Kobe's.

[DonDadda59]

I actually have noticed IRL that the people who hated the 2nd GOAT.....are now starting to respect him even more.....

now that the 2nd GOAT is in the twilight of his career and still competing...

The 2nd GOAT is enjoying his retirement and actually wrote a book about Sherlock Holmes' brother.

Dead Serious.

http://www.popmythology.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Mycroft-Holmes-kareem-abdul-jabbar.jpg

:wtf:

[ShawkFactory]

I actually have noticed IRL that the people who hated the 2nd GOAT.....are now starting to respect him even more.....

now that the 2nd GOAT is in the twilight of his career and still competing...
Stop!

[feyki]

The 2nd GOAT is enjoying his retirement and actually wrote a book about Sherlock Holmes' brother.

Dead Serious.

http://www.popmythology.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Mycroft-Holmes-kareem-abdul-jabbar.jpg

:wtf:
2nd Goat after Bill Russell?

[DonDadda59]

2nd Goat after Bill Russell?

You must mean in terms of authors? :confusedshrug:

2nd GOAT basketball player's 'Mycroft Holmes' is getting rave reviews. Don't know much about Mr. Russell's writing exploits.

[Smoke117]

Genuinely interested in what their arguments are at realgm for KG. Don't get me wrong, KG is one of the most versatile players to ever lace em up (maybe THE most), but he's top 20 or 30 all-time. He was never really able to close games consistently on offense...but that wasn't really his game. I've always said he would have been the GOAT second option to a player like Kobe. Kobe's elite talent is scoring and 100% carrying his teams to victory it with it at times. KG simply couldn't do this minus a few exceptions. You didn't really want KG shooting his fadaway post shot to win the game on those wolves....you looked for a Cassell stepback or 3 or something. Again, KG was primarily a shooter rather than some power post player like Tim or Shaq. I suppose in a sense KG reminds me of someone like Drexler or even a Lebron. They will likely keep you in the game with their elite well-rounded games but you need someone to help em finish it.

Top 30? lol...KG is easily in the 15-20 range.

[Dbrog]

Top 30? lol...KG is easily in the 15-20 range.

I too have him in my top 20 :confusedshrug:


...just barely though

[HOoopCityJones]

The hate for Kobe is unreal though.

How many players have gotten their legacies completely downplayed like this on their way out? I don't remember ni99as calling Larry a bum when he was laying on his belly for 30 minutes a night in his twilight years. Or trying to disprove Jordan as Goat because of a few questionable years in Washington.

[Akrazotile]

I actually have noticed IRL that the people who hated the 2nd GOAT.....are now starting to respect him even more.....

now that the 2nd GOAT is in the twilight of his career and still competing...


Ah. Well surely you dont mean Kobe then, since he HASNT actually competed in like 3 years.

Taking up a bloated proportion of cap space without playing isnt generally considered to be "competing." Altho Kobe stans may be willing to make an exception to the definition for basketball reasons.

[r15mohd]

The hate for Kobe is unreal though.

How many players have gotten their legacies completely downplayed like this on their way out? I don't remember ni99as calling Larry a bum when he was laying on his belly for 30 minutes a night in his twilight years. Or trying to disprove Jordan as Goat because of a few questionable years in Washington.


Kobe took the biggest pay out in the league last year and for this year, MJ played for 1-million and which was donated to the 9/11 victims. he also served as mentor during his "questionable" years to the Wiz players, not drive them away from the team or throw them under the bus, ala Kobe with D12 and Gasol.

MJ also adapted to his aging, in that he knew he wasn't going to benefit the squad if he played with the mindset of the MJ-bulls era.

all this is relative to the article, which I don't believe you took the time to read.

[Dbrog]

The hate for Kobe is unreal though.

How many players have gotten their legacies completely downplayed like this on their way out? I don't remember ni99as calling Larry a bum when he was laying on his belly for 30 minutes a night in his twilight years. Or trying to disprove Jordan as Goat because of a few questionable years in Washington.

I mean, Kobe has always been in the shadows of others for most of his career. Really the only time he truly had the spotlight was during those two gasol/odom chips and when competing against the Cs before that. It's not really the same as most of the top10 goats except for maybe Hakeem. All the rest were competing for chips almost every year as the main men when they were in the league or at least were being mentioned as serious contenders.

[HOoopCityJones]

Kobe took the biggest pay out in the league last year and for this year, MJ played for 1-million and which was donated to the 9/11 victims. he also served as mentor during his "questionable" years to the Wiz players, not drive them away from the team or throw them under the bus, ala Kobe with D12 and Gasol.

MJ also adapted to his aging, in that he knew he wasn't going to benefit the squad if he played with the mindset of the MJ-bulls era.

all this is relative to the article, which I don't believe you took the time to read.

Where or when did Kobe throw D12 or Gasol in particular under the bus? :biggums:

I'll wait.

[HOoopCityJones]

I mean, Kobe has always been in the shadows of others for most of his career. Really the only time he truly had the spotlight was during those two gasol/odom chips and when competing against the Cs before that. It's not really the same as most of the top10 goats except for maybe Hakeem. All the rest were competing for chips almost every year as the main men when they were in the league or at least were being mentioned as serious contenders.

Kareem, Magic and Bird didn't.

Each of them have shared FMVP , just like Kobe.

Just admit it, Kobe is the Negro of the basketball world, it's like 1965 and he's held to a double standard that the other greats aren't.

[Doranku]

From the article:

[QUOTE]For me, he

[HOoopCityJones]

Shaq and Kobe both get disrespected.

This Duncan era revisionism is shameful.

They dominated The Spurs together and apart.

[r15mohd]

Where or when did Kobe throw D12 or Gasol in particular under the bus? :biggums:

I'll wait.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Lakers vs OKC in the WCSF, Kobe missed a bunch of shots in the 4th and blamed Pau for it saying he wasn't doing enough and forced him to miss so many shots :facepalm

you Kobe-ites are blind to any wrong he's done, aren't you

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Duncan > Shaq > Kobe.

Seems straightforward. :confusedshrug:

[Dbrog]

Kareem, Magic and Bird didn't.

Each of them have shared FMVP , just like Kobe.

Just admit it, Kobe is the Negro of the basketball world, it's like 1965 and he's held to a double standard that the other greats aren't.

Kareem was always talked about as a contender as were the other two you listed. This occurred even in the years their teammates were injured or even retired. It didn't happen in Kobe's. He probably shouldn't have acted like a "stupid kid" (his words) and run Shaq and Phil out of town. Again, whether it's fair or not, Kobe has almost always been in someone's shadow when it comes to competing for chips (even LeBron's). I think it's easy to see how he has a sinking legacy due to these factors.

disclaimer: I think it's unjustified and he's had an amazing career.

[blablabla]

Being that the RealGM Forums are made up of some of the most passionate and knowledgeable followers of basketball in the world:roll:

[DaOldLion]

Kareem was always talked about as a contender as were the other two you listed. This occurred even in the years their teammates were injured or even retired. It didn't happen in Kobe's. He probably shouldn't have acted like a "stupid kid" (his words) and run Shaq and Phil out of town. Again, whether it's fair or not, Kobe has almost always been in someone's shadow when it comes to competing for chips (even LeBron's). I think it's easy to see how he has a sinking legacy due to these factors.

disclaimer: I think it's unjustified and he's had an amazing career.

Kareem missed the playoffs b2b seasons of his prime with an all star playing beside him..

[ShawkFactory]

Kareem, Magic and Bird didn't.

Each of them have shared FMVP , just like Kobe.

Just admit it, Kobe is the Negro of the basketball world, it's like 1965 and he's held to a double standard that the other greats aren't.
Lebron is held to an incredibly high double standard as well. Just a sign of the times.

[knicksman]

If youre a statnerd then yeah, bran is better. But once you realized that there are skills more important than the others, thats when you realize that kobe has the skills for winning. You can combine 5 role players and you cant still create kobe but you can with bran. Brans skills are common while kobes skills are rare. Thats why you can win with players like him(curry/dirk) while bran hasnt proven yet without stacking.

[chips93]

All this article shows is that Kobe Bryant has a lot of haters, it doesn't really have anything to do whether he deserves to be in the top 10 or not.

He should be correctly ranked somewhere towards the bottom end of the top 10, like 7th to 9th range. That's fair and accurate.

He made a clear argument of why he thinks kobe is top 10

[QUOTE]But we can

[AlphaWolf24]

The 2nd GOAT is enjoying his retirement and actually wrote a book about Sherlock Holmes' brother.

Dead Serious.

http://www.popmythology.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Mycroft-Holmes-kareem-abdul-jabbar.jpg

:wtf:


how is Cap 2nd GOAT?...

he dominated far more then Michael Jordan at every level of Basketball....same way Bill Russell did.....sh!t Russell won 14 major Championships in 15 seasons of Basketball!!!

BUT....


we as real fans who study the game all recognize that MJ's skill level and polarizing style of play is much more aesthetically pleasing then Russell and or Jabbar.....

for those same reasons it propels Kobe Bryant past aforementioned big men....

the 2nd GOAT was voted best player of the 00's....GOAT Laker and so on and so forth...


aint no one got time for one dimensional Big men.....might as well say Wilt is the best ever because he was tall and could rebound.

[AlphaWolf24]

I mean, Kobe has always been in the shadows of others for most of his career. Really the only time he truly had the spotlight was during those two gasol/odom chips and when competing against the Cs before that. It's not really the same as most of the top10 goats except for maybe Hakeem. All the rest were competing for chips almost every year as the main men when they were in the league or at least were being mentioned as serious contenders.


the 2nd GOAT was already widely viewed as the best allround player in the NBA at 22 years old.....in 2001.

I believe since 2000 the 2nd GOAT has always been in the top 5 of allstar voting for the past 15 seasons.

2nd GOAT has basically been the face of the NBA for well over a decade.....minus a few years after COLO.

i repeat....2nd GOAT was voted as an allstar starter at 19 years old....

- Magic had to play with Kareem and Worthy...all who won FMVP's over him.

- Bird had to play with Maxwell ,Mchale and Parish.....Max won FMVP's over him

- 1rst GOAT couldn't win sh!t until the great teams of 80's disbanded.....but he then went on to win 6X

- 2nd GOAT had to play with Snaq and Gasol ....he won with both of them....his 2001 playoff run IMO was his best ( and he was widely viewed as the best allaround player.....he casted his own shadow that year).....he played just like the 1rst GOAT MJ.....and the 3rd GOAT Magic that year......scoring and running the offense.:bowdown:

[dhsilv]

"LeBron James was the runaway leader; followed by Tim Duncan who also received a healthy chunk of the votes. Third place was split between Anthony Davis and Kobe Bryant, but both behind James and Duncan by a very wide margin. Being that the RealGM Forums are made up of some of the most passionate and knowledgeable followers of basketball in the world, and the voting was so decisive, it is fair to say that a large percentage of people no longer consider Kobe Bryant a top-10 player in basketball history."

Wait that logic is about as flaws as it gets! Duncan was ranked ahead of him already and Lebron has without any debate from all but the most hardcore of titles are all that counts "fans" has moved well pasted Kobe. AD given his absurd numbers already certainly is on pace to well....hell he keeps this up and MJ losing GOAT (unlikely but just saying).

All the article showed is that people see other players moving up the list. And heaven forbid someone disagrees with Simmons and has say shaq over kobe still making the +2 here make Kobe 11th!

[dhsilv]

When Melo was traded to the Knicks and I told people he wasnt really a superstar, they didnt believe me and said I was trolling.

When I signed up here in 2008 and have derided volume scoring and hero ball since the beginning, people always said I was being contrarian, until the metrics started coming out and the media narrative changed.

When I tell people Kobe is EASILY not Top 10, they say I'm a hater and pushing a gimmick. :facepalm Let's see who's right in time.


The thing is, I'm actually intelligent and give my own opinions, and USUALLY, theyre right. MOST people here simply repeat the current media narrative, and dont change their story until the media tells them to change it.


Bunch of herd animals I tell ya. Buncha sheep. Parrots.


Get on my level.

Can you define "easily"? I'm iffy on kobe in the top 10 but I don't see an "easily" case here. But perhaps our definitions do not match.

[Dbrog]

the 2nd GOAT was already widely viewed as the best allround player in the NBA at 22 years old.....in 2001.

I believe since 2000 the 2nd GOAT has always been in the top 5 of allstar voting for the past 15 seasons.

2nd GOAT has basically been the face of the NBA for well over a decade.....minus a few years after COLO.

i repeat....2nd GOAT was voted as an allstar starter at 19 years old....



I'm not sure why I'm even responding you considering the rest of your post that I cutoff was complete trolling. Oh well.

Who exactly viewed him as the best player in the nba in 2001?

All the other allstar stuff is meaningless btw...just measures popularity, not how good someone is.

Also the "face of the NBA" can't be missing playoffs fool hahahhaa

[dhsilv]

Ugh. You don't even deserve a response

Personally, I have Kobe at 10, Lebron a little higher.
As for realgm, I'm a member there, and tbh, after reading some arguments there, my blatant homered is the only justification for Kobe being ahead of Garnett.
Who is criminally underrated

I'm a stats nerd both online and at work...I work in finance and I"m the nerdy numbers guy??? Anyway the numbers for KG is without a doubt amazing, but and a big but...did he maybe just not step his game up when it mattered? Or was he playing at 100% to the point he didn't have an extra gear that everyone else had? I struggle to move him up given the numbers really make it seems like he should have had the ability to win a few more games over the years.

I suppose this is the human side of numbers. We have them but we then have to interpret them.

[kennethgriffin]

I'm not sure why I'm even responding you considering the rest of your post that I cutoff was complete trolling. Oh well.

Who exactly viewed him as the best player in the nba in 2001?

All the other allstar stuff is meaningless btw...just measures popularity, not how good someone is.

Also the "face of the NBA" can't be missing playoffs fool hahahhaa


wasnt there already a magazine cover saying "best player at 22" or some shit


and shaq was preaching it after every playoff game the first 3 rounds



kobe was by far the face of the nba by then

[AlphaWolf24]

I'm not sure why I'm even responding you considering the rest of your post that I cutoff was complete trolling. Oh well.

Who exactly viewed him as the best player in the nba in 2001?

All the other allstar stuff is meaningless btw...just measures popularity, not how good someone is.

Also the "face of the NBA" can't be missing playoffs fool hahahhaa

who exactly....Bill Simmons old employer....

http://i495.photobucket.com/albums/rr320/BruceBlitz/AlphaWolf-2173769_596_800_zpsa88ae143.jpg


not sure why I'm responding to you.....you prolly weren't even born yet.

the premiere player of the league since 01'....the 2nd GOAT....

(opens pocket)...get in son.....

[dhsilv]

kobe has more 50,60,70,80 point games than larry birds entire career

and only 2 less 40 point games




in just 2 seasons of basketball


06,07 > 80,81,82,83,84,85,86,87,88,89,90,91,92


look it up. its true

So you're saying Kobe sucked? Is a ball hog? I'm not sure what the above means in terms of basketball. It's like you said he had a light bright growing up. And?

[Dbrog]

You dudes are citing ESPN?! Same guys who hype Bron as the 2nd coming of Jordan? Come on cuhhhhhhhhh

KOBE WAS NUMBER 9 IN MVP VOTING THAT YEAR!

[Cold soul]

I don't see Kobe slipping that much maybe a little but down the road this will happen to all current generations best players say 10-20 years young fans likely will say their players were better and older generation weren't that good to begin with.

[kennethgriffin]

You dudes are citing ESPN?! Same guys who hype Bron as the 2nd coming of Jordan? Come on cuhhhhhhhhh

KOBE WAS NUMBER 9 IN MVP VOTING THAT YEAR!


back then there was a rule that you couldnt win mvp if you had another legendary teammate


lol they changed that rule for lebron obviously

[dhsilv]

From the article:



Where does this guy rank Shaq? :biggums:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/simmons_pyramid.html

12 behind hakeem.

Honestly bill wrote a pretty good argument for shaq's short comings. I'm still however most not sure how Oscar was so easy to rank over him.

[Cold soul]

I'm not sure why I'm even responding you considering the rest of your post that I cutoff was complete trolling. Oh well.

Who exactly viewed him as the best player in the nba in 2001?

All the other allstar stuff is meaningless btw...just measures popularity, not how good someone is.

Also the "face of the NBA" can't be missing playoffs fool hahahhaa


Shaq during 01 playoff run said Kobe was best player in game of course I do not agree with this.

[kennethgriffin]

kobes just in the "what have you done for me lately" pool right now of current active players


he still has haters


wait 10 years and after his heat dies down and he gets his retirement boost or era boost .. youl see him climb into the top 5 all time



duncan will be long forgotten after 20 years. kobes youtube highlights are probably the 2nd most aesthetically pleasing to michael jordan all time


look at all the young kids today fallowing jordan and worshipping him off of youtube clips ...


when all you see is their great moments and highlights. its hard to have a bad opinion about someone




give it time.

[AlphaWolf24]

You dudes are citing ESPN?! Same guys who hype Bron as the 2nd coming of Jordan? Come on cuhhhhhhhhh

KOBE WAS NUMBER 9 IN MVP VOTING THAT YEAR!


all I'm saying is 2nd GOAT was on the cover of Grips of Magazines labeling him best/superstar....

when you the new Hotness at 22 years old.....winning Chips ....you casting yer own shadow...like 2nd GOAT was...


but 15 years later haters gonna hate on the 2nd GOAT???....listen to 1 internet blogger who hates the Lakers?


pssst....next

[dhsilv]

Shaq during 01 playoff run said Kobe was best player in game of course I do not agree with this.

He also when they played the 76ers said Iverson was either top 5 or 10 all time....shaq has about 40 top 10 guys all time....

[kennethgriffin]

He also when they played the 76ers said Iverson was either top 5 or 10 all time....shaq has about 40 top 10 guys all time....


i think 40-50 big names have said kobes one of the top 5 players all time or the goat laker


and every single one of them have been refuted by idiots saying "theyre just being nice"

:lol

[KNOW1EDGE]

When Melo was traded to the Knicks and I told people he wasnt really a superstar, they didnt believe me and said I was trolling.

When I signed up here in 2008 and have derided volume scoring and hero ball since the beginning, people always said I was being contrarian, until the metrics started coming out and the media narrative changed.

When I tell people Kobe is EASILY not Top 10, they say I'm a hater and pushing a gimmick. :facepalm Let's see who's right in time.


The thing is, I'm actually intelligent and give my own opinions, and USUALLY, theyre right. MOST people here simply repeat the current media narrative, and dont change their story until the media tells them to change it.


Bunch of herd animals I tell ya. Buncha sheep. Parrots.


Get on my level.

Jan 2014. :lol

[Wade's Rings]

Shaq during 01 playoff run said Kobe was best player in game of course I do not agree with this.

Shaq called Wade the Best player in the League in the 2005 Playoffs & the GOAT after the 2006 Finals. Later on he says Wade was a sidekick for all 3 of his Titles and Nash robbed him of the 2006 MVP. I'd take what Shaq says with a Grain of Salt.

[raprap]

This thread further proves the article. :oldlol:

Btw, duncan>kobe

[kennethgriffin]

This thread further proves the article. :oldlol:

Btw, duncan>kobe


not according to public opinion


which is what decides jordans goat status.. just sayin


http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/post/_/id/11090247/all-nba-players


1.Michael Jordan

2.Magic Johnson

3.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

4.Wilt Chamberlain

5.Larry Bird

6.Bill Russell

7.Kobe Bryant

8.Tim Duncan

9.LeBron James

10.Oscar Robertson

11.Shaquille O'Neal

12.Hakeem Olajuwon

13.Julius Erving

14.Jerry West

15.Karl Malone

[DonDadda59]

how is Cap 2nd GOAT?...

he dominated far more then Michael Jordan at every level of Basketball....same way Bill Russell did.....sh!t Russell won 14 major Championships in 15 seasons of Basketball!!!

BUT....


we as real fans who study the game all recognize that MJ's skill level and polarizing style of play is much more aesthetically pleasing then Russell and or Jabbar.....

for those same reasons it propels Kobe Bryant past aforementioned big men....

the 2nd GOAT was voted best player of the 00's....GOAT Laker and so on and so forth...


aint no one got time for one dimensional Big men.....might as well say Wilt is the best ever because he was tall and could rebound.

This is the best anti drug ad I've ever seen.

Like watching Pookie in New Jack City all over again. :(

[Showtime2001]

Kobe > Duncan.

Now and forever.

[kennethgriffin]

Kobe > Duncan.

Now and forever.

what makes jordan the goat?

[DonDadda59]

Shaq called Wade the Best player in the League in the 2005 Playoffs & the GOAT after the 2006 Finals. Later on he says Wade was a sidekick for all 3 of his Titles and Nash robbed him of the 2006 MVP. I'd take what Shaq says with a Grain of Salt.

Dudes using Shaq AKA The Big Hyperbole himself as proof of anything. :lol

Like you said, he called Wade the best player in the world, and the GOAT. He called LeBron the best player in the world in 2010. And I saw a recent NBA TV special where he said a 2nd year Penny was just as good as Kobe 6-7 years into his career.

[kennethgriffin]

i'l give everyone a hint as to why michael jordan is the goat




its not his mvps or points... kareem has more

its not his rings or fmvps... russell does and would have more

its not his average or records... wilt has more

its not his skills... kobe and bird had more

its not his repertoire of dunks... vince has more

its not his undefeated finals record... havlicek has more



its public opinion. majority rules. jordan is the best ever because people say so


which is also why kobe is better than duncan all time. its accepted general belief and knowledge among the masses

[Wade's Rings]

Dudes using Shaq AKA The Big Hyperbole himself as proof of anything. :lol

Like you said, he called Wade the best player in the world, and the GOAT. He called LeBron the best player in the world in 2010. And I saw a recent NBA TV special where he said a 2nd year Penny was just as good as Kobe 6-7 years into his career.

Exactly dude will prop up whoever his current teammate was or ones he got along with. He contradicts himself plenty and exaggerates just as much.

IIRC in the Open Court 50 Greatest & Next 10 he said he'd take Penny over Wade :lol Penny over the same guy he called the GOAT.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

i'l give everyone a hint as to why michael jordan is the goat




its not his mvps or points... kareem has more

its not his rings or fmvps... russell does and would have more

its not his average or records... wilt has more

its not his skills... kobe and bird had more

its not his repertoire of dunks... vince has more

its not his undefeated finals record... havlicek has more



its public opinion. majority rules. jordan is the best ever because people say so


which is also why kobe is better than duncan all time. its accepted general belief and knowledge among the masses

Except, Jordan has the best combination of those things you listed. Along with that, he's the greatest postseason and finals performer of all-time.

Kobe can't lay claim to that excellence. Nobody ranks him with Jordan, Kareem or even Russell, and on most lists, he's a back end Top 10 player.

Honestly? LeBron may have kicked him out of the Top 10, but that's another discussion all together.

[SamuraiSWISH]

It's not his legacy sinking so much as people acknowledging reality. He was a poor man's MJ at the end of the day. Fantastic no doubt. While having a transcendent HS drafted player that came along shortly after him that was even greater all time in LeBron. There is no shame in that at all for fellow Kobe fans. It is the plain hard reality.

[DoctorP]

RealGM can suck a dick.

[GimmeThat]

Except, Jordan has the best combination of those things you listed. Along with that, he's the greatest postseason and finals performer of all-time.

Kobe can't lay claim to that excellence. Nobody ranks him with Jordan, Kareem or even Russell, and on most lists, he's a back end Top 10 player.

Honestly? LeBron may have kicked him out of the Top 10, but that's another discussion all together.

it appears that you don't want to get shot by someone's grand children with the stance you've taken and your argument.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

it appears that you don't want to get shot by someone's grand children with the stance you've taken and your argument.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2012/10/biden_wtf2.gif

[kennethgriffin]

Except, Jordan has the best combination of those things you listed. Along with that, he's the greatest postseason and finals performer of all-time.

Kobe can't lay claim to that excellence. Nobody ranks him with Jordan, Kareem or even Russell, and on most lists, he's a back end Top 10 player.

Honestly? LeBron may have kicked him out of the Top 10, but that's another discussion all together.


and kobe was probably the 2nd or 3rd best combination of those things




out of the top 10-11 players all time



MVPs:
#1 Kareem
#2 Jordan
#2 Russell
#4 Wilt
#4 Bran
#6 Bird
#6 Magic
#7 Duncan
#8 Kobe
#8 Shaq
#8 Hakeem

Points
#1 Kareem
#2 Kobe
#3 Jordan
#4 Wilt
#5 Shaq
#6 Hakeem
#7 Duncan
#8 Lebron
#9 Bird
#10 Magic
#11 Russell


Rings
#1 Russell
#2 Jordan
#2 Kareem
#4 Kobe
#4 Magic
#4 Duncan
#7 Shaq
#8 Bird
#9 Hakeem
#9 Wilt
#9 Lebron

fmvps
#1 Jordan
#2 Magic
#2 Shaq
#2 Duncan
#5 Kobe
#5 Hakeem
#5 Bird
#5 Kareem
#5 Lebron
#10 Wilt
#11 Russell


Average
#1 Jordan
#1 Wilt
#3 Lebron
#4 Kobe
#5 Kareem
#6 Bird
#7 Shaq
#8 Hakeem
#9 Duncan
#10 Magic
#11 Russell

records

#1 Wilt
#2 Kareem
#3 Jordan
#4 Kobe
#5 Shaq
#6 Lebron
#7 Bird
#8 Hakeem
#9 Magic
#10 Russell
#11 Duncan


skills

#1 Kobe
#2 Bird
#3 Jordan
#4 Hakeem
#5 Kareem
#6 Lebron
#7 Magic
#8 Wilt
#9 Duncan
#10 Shaq
#11 Russell




Dunks
#1 Jordan
#2 Kobe
#3 Lebron
#4 Wilt
#5 Shaq
#6 Kareem
#7 Hakeem
#8 Russell
#9 Duncan
#10 Magic
#11 Bird


finals record ( wins 1st, tie breaker least losses )

#1 Russell
#2 Jordan
#3 Kareem
#4 Duncan
#5 Kobe
#6 Magic
#7 Shaq
#8 Bird
#9 Hakeem
#10 Wilt
#10 Lebron








but lets continue




1st team all nbas


#1 Kobe
#2 Kareem
#2 Jordan
#2 Duncan
#5 Bird
#5 Magic
#5 Lebron
#8 shaq
#9 Wilt
#10 Hakeem
#11 Russell


1st team all defense

#1 Kobe
#1 Jordan
#3 Duncan
#4 Kareem
#4 Hakeem
#4 Lebron
#7 Wilt
#8 Bill
#9 Bird
#10 Magic ( 0 selections )
#10 Shaq ( 0 selections )


career highs
#1 Wilt
#2 Kobe
#3 Jordan
#4 Shaq
#4 Lebron
#6 Bird
#7 Kareem
#8 Hakeem
#9 Duncan
#10 Magic
#11 Bill



Kobes average spot out of 12 catigories= 3.25





i dont think anyone other than jordan has a better average

[kennethgriffin]

so the criteria that makes jordan the goat... puts kobe in the top 2-3 all time

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Pretty sure that wasn't the original criteria posted.

Is this where I post my rules of conduct? :confusedshrug:

[kennethgriffin]

Pretty sure that wasn't the original criteria posted.

Is this where I post my rules of conduct? :confusedshrug:


so your criteria is to eliminate what kobe has going for him?

i see


1st team all nbas
1st team all defense's
career highs


i cant add these in?

even if i didnt kobes still averaging a top 3-4 spot


:lol

[GimmeThat]

this thread is a lot about the frequency of how/when each franchises hangs up a banner

at least given by the ranking it appears



the NBA hands out 1 every year

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

So you post the original criteria, don't like the results, and now you wanna tally up MORE arbitrary guidelines?

https://media.giphy.com/media/JVsMEetkJm7kI/giphy.gif

[kennethgriffin]

So you post the original criteria, don't like the results, and now you wanna tally up MORE arbitrary guidelines?

https://media.giphy.com/media/JVsMEetkJm7kI/giphy.gif


ok...


original guidlines.. since you dont accept 1st team all nbas, 1st team all defenses

even though theyre just as legit as mvps

or career highs... whatever....


but heres the original



out of the top 10-11 players all time



MVPs:
#1 Kareem
#2 Jordan
#2 Russell
#4 Wilt
#4 Bran
#6 Bird
#6 Magic
#7 Duncan
#8 Kobe
#8 Shaq
#8 Hakeem

Points
#1 Kareem
#2 Kobe
#3 Jordan
#4 Wilt
#5 Shaq
#6 Hakeem
#7 Duncan
#8 Lebron
#9 Bird
#10 Magic
#11 Russell


Rings
#1 Russell
#2 Jordan
#2 Kareem
#4 Kobe
#4 Magic
#4 Duncan
#7 Shaq
#8 Bird
#9 Hakeem
#9 Wilt
#9 Lebron

fmvps
#1 Jordan
#2 Magic
#2 Shaq
#2 Duncan
#5 Kobe
#5 Hakeem
#5 Bird
#5 Kareem
#5 Lebron
#10 Wilt
#11 Russell


Average
#1 Jordan
#1 Wilt
#3 Lebron
#4 Kobe
#5 Kareem
#6 Bird
#7 Shaq
#8 Hakeem
#9 Duncan
#10 Magic
#11 Russell

records

#1 Wilt
#2 Kareem
#3 Jordan
#4 Kobe
#5 Shaq
#6 Lebron
#7 Bird
#8 Hakeem
#9 Magic
#10 Russell
#11 Duncan


skills

#1 Kobe
#2 Bird
#3 Jordan
#4 Hakeem
#5 Kareem
#6 Lebron
#7 Magic
#8 Wilt
#9 Duncan
#10 Shaq
#11 Russell




Dunks
#1 Jordan
#2 Kobe
#3 Lebron
#4 Wilt
#5 Shaq
#6 Kareem
#7 Hakeem
#8 Russell
#9 Duncan
#10 Magic
#11 Bird


finals record ( wins 1st, tie breaker least losses )

#1 Russell
#2 Jordan
#3 Kareem
#4 Duncan
#5 Kobe
#6 Magic
#7 Shaq
#8 Bird
#9 Hakeem
#10 Wilt
#10 Lebron



kobes average spot out of 9 catigories = 3.88

[kennethgriffin]

#1 jordans average spot = 2.00
#2 kareems average spot = 3.33
#3 kobes average spot = 3.88
#4 wilts average spot = 5.66
#5 lebrons average spot = 6.00
#6 shaqs average spot = 6.22
#7 duncans average spot = 6.88
#8 birds average spot = 6.88
#9 magics average spot = 7.11
#10 hakeems average spot = 7.11
#11 russells average spot = 7.33




under the 9 criteria guidline that determines Jordans GOAT standing

kobe bryant is the 3rd greatest player of all time.


even WITHOUT his 1st team all nbas, even WITHOUT his 1st team defenses, and even WITHOUT his 2nd all time career high

[GimmeThat]

1. Didn't Lamarcus Aldridge just joined the Spurs

2. are there any differences between the numbers in differences and actual ranking points?

if we were to utilize the ACT system

thus if 2 rings was set to be at the 90 percentile
then clearly, 11 rings being at the 100 percentile would make the score of 6 rings at roughly somewhere around 95

if not, you got any idea how disruptive that ranking system would be for future basketball players?

[Straight_Ballin]

You can't rate players you can only rate teams. None of these players are even comparable to each other because of the influences brought on by variation in teammates and eras. What you can say however is that a 72-10 record is the greatest team ever and that MJ just so happend to be on that TEAM.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

MVPs

Shaq in 2000 > Kobe in 2008
Hakeem in 1994 > Kobe in 2008

:confusedshrug:

We'll put Kobe at 10. He's right there with Hakeem and Shaq, but they both have the tie-breaker for A) superior stats, B) more dominance and C) impact on both ends


scoring

Kobe is at 4. Behind Wilt, Jordan and LeBron in regular-season PPG.

He's at 4 in the postseason behind Hakeem, LeBron and Jordan

And he's at 5 in the Finals, behind Hakeem, Shaq, LeBron, Jordan

Overall, he's ~4.3 in scoring


Rings
#1 Russell
#2 Jordan
#2 Kareem
#4 Kobe
#4 Magic
#4 Duncan
#7 Shaq
#8 Bird
#9 Hakeem
#9 Wilt
#9 Lebron

Kobe is behind Russell, Jordan, Kareem and right there with Magic and Duncan.

The fact Duncan and Magic played better in the finals, gives them the tie-breaker.

So Kobe is actually #6 in this category.


fmvps
#1 Jordan
#2 Magic
#2 Shaq
#2 Duncan
#5 Kobe
#5 Hakeem
#5 Bird
#5 Kareem
#5 Lebron
#10 Wilt
#11 Russell

Russell should be Top 5. After all, the award is named after him. :confusedshrug: Had the award existed in his prime, he would have more than 2 FMVP's without question.

Moreover, of the guys Kobe tied at #5, he was the WORST finals performer of them all. In fact, him being the worst finals performer of ALL Top 10 candidates is common knowledge.

We'll have to put him at 10. Just behind Wilt, who like Russell, technically should have more FMVPs (1967)


records

#4 sounds about right. Bean has those meaningless longevity awards on LOCK. :applause:


skills

#1 Kobe
#2 Bird
#3 Jordan
#4 Hakeem
#5 Kareem
#6 Lebron
#7 Magic
#8 Wilt
#9 Duncan
#10 Shaq
#11 Russell

Bird has more skills than Kobe, and Jordan is right there with Kobe.

Relative to their position? Hakeem is right there with Kobe who actually went to Hakeem to hone his skillset.

We'll put him at 3 with The Dream. Jordan won more so he gets the tiebreaker.


Dunks
#1 Jordan
#2 Kobe
#3 Lebron
#4 Wilt
#5 Shaq
#6 Kareem
#7 Hakeem
#8 Russell
#9 Duncan
#10 Magic
#11 Bird

LeBron and Jordan are better dunkers while Jordan, LeBron, Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, Hakeem, Russell and Duncan have more total dunks than Kobe.

Kobe = #8 in total dunks
Kobe = #3 in dunking skills (aesthetics)

He's ~5.5 on average


finals record ( wins 1st, tie breaker least losses )

Yes, Kobe is at 5 here.


Overall, tallied up, Bean is at ~5.97 which is 6 rounded. Not quite Top 5 material, even by your own criteria. :confusedshrug:





https://media.giphy.com/media/O5NyCibf93upy/giphy.gif

[sd3035]

Didn't read but after the rape allegations the NBA and media basically jumped ship to Lebald

That's why it's amazing that Kobe won two titles with a bad team and no ref help

[kennethgriffin]

Shaq in 2000 > Kobe in 2008
Hakeem in 1994 > Kobe in 2008

:confusedshrug:

We'll put Kobe at 10. He's right there with Hakeem and Shaq, but they both have the tie-breaker for A) superior stats, B) more dominance and C) impact on both ends



Kobe is at 4. Behind Wilt, Jordan and LeBron in regular-season PPG.

He's at 4 in the postseason behind Hakeem, LeBron and Jordan

And he's at 5 in the Finals, behind Hakeem, Shaq, LeBron, Jordan

Overall, he's ~4.3 in scoring



Kobe is behind Russell, Jordan, Kareem and right there with Magic and Duncan.

The fact Duncan and Magic played better in the finals, gives them the tie-breaker.

So Kobe is actually #6 in this category.



Russell should be Top 5. After all, the award is named after him. :confusedshrug: Had the award existed in his prime, he would have more than 2 FMVP's without question.

Moreover, of the guys Kobe tied at #5, he was the WORST finals performer of them all. In fact, him being the worst finals performer of ALL Top 10 candidates is common knowledge.

We'll have to put him at 10. Just behind Wilt, who like Russell, technically should have more FMVPs (1967)



#4 sounds about right. Bean has those meaningless longevity awards on LOCK. :applause:



Bird has more skills than Kobe, and Jordan is right there with Kobe.

Relative to their position? Hakeem is right there with Kobe who actually went to Hakeem to hone his skillset.

We'll put him at 3 with The Dream. Jordan won more so he gets the tiebreaker.



LeBron and Jordan are better dunkers while Jordan, LeBron, Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, Hakeem, Russell and Duncan have more total dunks than Kobe.

Kobe = #8 in total dunks
Kobe = #3 in dunking skills (aesthetics)

He's ~5.5 on average



Yes, Kobe is at 5 here.


Overall, tallied up, Bean is at ~5.97 which is 6 rounded. Not quite Top 5 material, even by your own criteria. :confusedshrug:





https://media.giphy.com/media/O5NyCibf93upy/giphy.gif



http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Jr1CxlcI_uI/TcCoBXTRaiI/AAAAAAAACrk/6hcl5FzYhlg/s1600/head-scratch2.gif

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Damn. Looks like I stumped Kobe's Hype Man. :oldlol:

That lesson was free of charge, by the way.

[Cold soul]

Shaq called Wade the Best player in the League in the 2005 Playoffs & the GOAT after the 2006 Finals. Later on he says Wade was a sidekick for all 3 of his Titles and Nash robbed him of the 2006 MVP. I'd take what Shaq says with a Grain of Salt.

Well that explains it. :confusedshrug:

[kennethgriffin]

Damn. Looks like I stumped Kobe's Hype Man. :oldlol:

That lesson was free of charge, by the way.


i'm confused because when i added 1st team all nbas, 1st team all d's, career highs


you said "nope! stick to the original criteria"


so i left them off to please you


then you basically voided everything from the original criteria and made up 9 of your own biased opinions overtop of factual number rankings














http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Jr1CxlcI_uI/TcCoBXTRaiI/AAAAAAAACrk/6hcl5FzYhlg/s1600/head-scratch2.gif

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

i'm confused because when i added 1st team all nbas, 1st team all d's, career highs


you said "nope! stick to the original criteria"


so i left them off to please you

Read the post again.

MVPs? Check.
FMVPs? Check.
Points? Check.
Rings? Check.
Records? Check
Skills? Check.
Dunks? Check.
Finals Record? Check.

I literally changed nothing except give tie-breakers to those with more impressive feats.


:confusedshrug:



http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Chicago-Bulls-Michael-Jordan-Last-Shot-Game-Six-vs-Utah-Jazz.gif

[outbreak]

11-15 range all time. Lebrons in that range too

[kennethgriffin]

Read the post again.

MVPs? Check.
FMVPs? Check.
Points? Check.
Rings? Check.
Records? Check
Skills? Check.
Dunks? Check.
Finals Record? Check.

I literally changed nothing except give tie-breakers to those with more impressive feats.


:confusedshrug:



http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Chicago-Bulls-Michael-Jordan-Last-Shot-Game-Six-vs-Utah-Jazz.gif


yah but you basically took factual rankings and awarded personal values in place of the actual numbers

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Jr1CxlcI_uI/TcCoBXTRaiI/AAAAAAAACrk/6hcl5FzYhlg/s1600/head-scratch2.gif

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

If by "personal value" you mean backed with Logic, Facts and Stats - agreed.

Technically, Wilt and Russell have more FMVPs than Kobe. Hell, you've basically said as much in another thread, claiming Russell was the Greatest Playoff Performer (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11725652&postcount=15)

Dunks? Backed up by statistics and logical reason.
Rings? Backed up by stats AKA facts.
Skills? Nobody can back this up with stats, but objectively speaking, everything I listed there was on point.


:whatever:

[kennethgriffin]

If by "personal value" you mean backed with Logic, Facts and Stats - agreed.

Technically, Wilt and Russell have more FMVPs than Kobe. Hell, you've basically said as much in another thread, claiming Russell was the Greatest Playoff Performer (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11725652&postcount=15)

Dunks? Backed up by statistics and logical reason.
Rings? Backed up by stats AKA facts.
Skills? Nobody can back this up with stats, but objectively speaking, everything I listed there was on point.


:whatever:


if its all personal opinion without facts. then why bother even creating categories



we're just reverting back to agendas


you can sum up an agenda simply by saying "hes top 5-6" ... my opinion based on my opinion says so because "my logic counts above all else"



so youre regressing back to the same old neanderthal method people have been arguing about on here in circles for the past 15 years



http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Jr1CxlcI_uI/TcCoBXTRaiI/AAAAAAAACrk/6hcl5FzYhlg/s1600/head-scratch2.gif

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

So you weren't happy about your original criteria, wanted to change it, then flipped the script Rinse N Repeat..and you're STILL crying?


Nothing I can do but:

http://media.giphy.com/media/xTiTnJp3FfCaOm7rG0/giphy.gif

[kennethgriffin]

So you weren't happy about your original criteria, wanted to change it, then flipped the script Rinse N Repeat..and you're STILL crying?


Nothing I can do but:

http://media.giphy.com/media/xTiTnJp3FfCaOm7rG0/giphy.gif


no..you were unhappy with the original

since i voided the 3 things that majorly favor kobe to make you happy


then you voided the 9 things you originally agreed on and revised everything


youre the unhappy one


and btw dumbass.... even in your bold unwavering effort with the upmost form of criticism. you still only managed to take kobe down to around top 5-6



which is exactly where i put him for the last few years on here

i simply provided a formula in which i could easly bump him up to top 3






enjoy the L

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

no..you were unhappy with the original

Re-read the thread, bruh.

I was fine with your original premise, because I knew Kobe wouldn't be ANYWHERE close to the GOAT. :oldlol:

You then wanted to backtrack and include All-Teams and other meaningless garbage to prop Kobe up.

:confusedshrug:


and btw dumbass.... even in your bold unwavering effort with the upmost form of criticism. you still only managed to take kobe down to around top 5-6

So me using the criteria of ISH's #1 Kobe Apostle (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11286739&postcount=2) ... lent Bean a shrimpy #6 rating?


Hold on one second....



https://media.giphy.com/media/HPvfnOuz1tOgg/giphy.gif

[kennethgriffin]

Re-read the thread, bruh.

I was fine with your original premise, because I knew Kobe wouldn't be ANYWHERE close to the GOAT. :oldlol:

You then wanted to backtrack and include All-Teams and other meaningless garbage to prop Kobe up.

:confusedshrug:



So me using the criteria of ISH's #1 Kobe Apostle (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11286739&postcount=2) ... lent Bean a shrimpy #6 rating?


Hold on one second....



https://media.giphy.com/media/HPvfnOuz1tOgg/giphy.gif



wrong. you yourself said


and i quote



If by "personal value" you mean backed with Logic, Facts and Stats - agreed.



when referring to your own revised method


:lol


YOUR logic brought you to the conclusion that kobe was top 5-6



mine brought me to the conclusion that kobe was top 2-3




agree to disagree i guess


:roll:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

you still only managed to take kobe down to around top 5-6



which is exactly where i put him for the last few years on here

So on one hand you post this... (basically agreeing with me)

And on the other... Double Talk Garbage (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11286739&postcount=2)


:yaohappy:


This ain't looking good for you, son. Anybody wanna lend Kenny a life line? :oldlol:

[kennethgriffin]

So on one hand you post this... (basically agreeing with me)

And on the other... This Garbage (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11286739&postcount=2)


:yaohappy:


This ain't looking good for you, son. Anybody wanna lend Kenny a life line? :oldlol:


depending on the criteria you can argue kobe as right there with jordan or as low as 5-6


i personally say hes in the middle somewhere around 3rd behind jordan and kareem


those are the only 2 guys who are clearly above kobe without a biased agenda


but i can live with 5-6 if everyone wants to give him a raw deal

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Top 6 ain't GOAT.

Agreeing that Kobe = #6 range, your criteria, and in another thread being caught saying he's arguably the GOAT...is you getting f*cked. :oldlol:

You can't keep your stories straight, Kenneth. You dirty politician you.

[kennethgriffin]

i mean...

one could throw out everything that favors jordan and simply say


points = kobe > jordan
longevity = kobe > jordan
competition = Kobe > jordan
skills = kobe > jordan

1st teams = kobe > jordan
allstar selections = kobe > jordan
defensive 1st teams = kobe = jordan

50+ win teams beaten = kobe > jordan
game winners = kobe > jordan
career highs = kobe > jordan
titles without a legendary sidekick = kobe > jordan


i mean so what if jordan was 6 for 6 and won mvp every time... kobe would do the same if he had the 90s bulls

and so what if jordan has more season mvps... nash has more than shaq, oscar, kobe, hakeem, dr J

f*ck the media right?


i mean if kobe can score almost as much in 2 quarters ( 55 ) as jordan can score through 4 quarters ( 61 )... then kobe is practically twice the offensive weapon


maybe he is... who knows.

:confusedshrug:




sure jordan has his 30ppg career average. but kobes points per shot is 1.30 ... same as jordans

so if kobe takes the same attempts as MJ throughout his career he also averages 30ppg


so big deal

kobe = or better than jordan



see... anyone can do anything with their own agenda

[kennethgriffin]

Top 6 ain't GOAT.

Agreeing that Kobe = #6 range, your criteria, and in another thread being caught saying he's arguably the GOAT...is you getting f*cked. :oldlol:

You can't keep your stories straight, Kenneth. You dirty politician you.

i said i can live with it from haters


it doesnt bother me cause its not my opinion. everyones entitled to one

[sportjames23]

what makes jordan the goat?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Michael_Jordan

[kennethgriffin]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Michael_Jordan


^ exactly... a logical explanation is to look at everything



not just mvps like some "boiled down" r*tards on ISH


and like i said. if you look at absolutely everything... kobe averages out to a top 3 player all time behind jordan and kareem

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

i said i can live with it from haters


it doesnt bother me cause its not my opinion. everyones entitled to one

:biggums:


You literally claimed having Kobe at the 6 range. For YEARS. In that earlier post I digged up, you actually have him as the alleged GOAT. :oldlol:

Which one is it exactly? Hint... No answer changes the fact you're a two-faced, pathological liar.

[kennethgriffin]

:biggums:


You literally claimed having Kobe at the 6 range. For YEARS. In that earlier post I digged up, you actually have him as the alleged GOAT. :oldlol:

Which one is it exactly? Hint... No answer changes the fact you're a two-faced, pathological liar.


No.. i said an argument can be made for kobe as goat


I didnt say it was my argument

[dhsilv]

No.. i said an argument can be made for kobe as goat


I didnt say it was my argument

Normally when you say an argument CAN be made, it implies it's not a joke argument. There are 3 guys (4 if you allow in 60's guys, I don't) who were clearly without debate the best player in the league for multiple years to the point it's absurd. Kobe fans have a HARD time even making a STRONG case for him being the best player any year in his career.

Now go on and argue over this if you'd like...you're not going to counter it.

[kennethgriffin]

Normally when you say an argument CAN be made, it implies it's not a joke argument. There are 3 guys (4 if you allow in 60's guys, I don't) who were clearly without debate the best player in the league for multiple years to the point it's absurd. Kobe fans have a HARD time even making a STRONG case for him being the best player any year in his career.

Now go on and argue over this if you'd like...you're not going to counter it.


Its not a joke

Kobe has atleast 20 things on mj in terms of longevity, highs, records, streaks, nominations, eras, competition and certain skills



One can simply wipe away finals mvps and season mvps based on biased criteria...

[AirFederer]

Is there a t missing in the headline?

[Akrazotile]

If you think about it...

Kobe was relevant for four years with Shaq. Three years with Gasol. The rest of his 19 year career was not very meaningful. He's 7/19 even just contending for titles. Just getting out of the first round, really.

Boiled down: WEAK longevity

[AlphaWolf24]

Kenneth shut it down....

2nd GOAT is top 5 in every meaningful category used to judge the all time top players...

all that's left is FG%.....lmao.




next

[Wade's Rings]

i mean...

one could throw out everything that favors jordan and simply say


points = kobe > jordan

Playoff Points = jordan > kobe


competition = Kobe > jordan

jordan > kobe


skills = kobe > jordan

jordan > kobe


1st teams = kobe > jordan

MVPs = jordan > kobe


defensive 1st teams = kobe = jordan

dpoy = jordan > kobe


50+ win teams beaten = kobe > jordan

60+ win teams beaten = jordan > kobe


game winners = kobe > jordan

playoff game winners = jordan > kobe

finals game winers = jordan > kobe


career highs = kobe > jordan

playoff career highs = jordan > kobe


titles without a legendary sidekick = kobe > jordan

titles without an all-star = jordan > kobe



i mean so what if jordan was 6 for 6 and won mvp every time... kobe would do the same if he had the 90s bulls

no he wouldn't as he's far inferior vs 60+ win teams, playoff and finals game winners.


and so what if jordan has more season mvps... nash has more than shaq, oscar, kobe, hakeem, dr J

f*ck the media right?

Yet you use ESPN to support your arguments :biggums:



i mean if kobe can score almost as much in 2 quarters ( 55 ) as jordan can score through 4 quarters ( 61 )... then kobe is practically twice the offensive weapon

Kobe twice the offensive weapon in the playoffs right?


sure jordan has his 30ppg career average. but kobes points per shot is 1.30 ... same as jordans

so if kobe takes the same attempts as MJ throughout his career he also averages 30ppg

what are their playoff points per shot?



so big deal

kobe = or better than jordan



see... anyone can do anything with their own agenda

kenneth resorted to using bron stans arguments, THE REGULAR SEASON :roll:

[AlphaWolf24]

This is the best anti drug ad I've ever seen.

Like watching Pookie in New Jack City all over again. :(


stay mad......it aint my fault you weren't born with Kobe's cheekbones...

[ShawkFactory]

Its not a joke

Kobe has atleast 20 things on mj in terms of longevity, highs, records, streaks, nominations, eras, competition and certain skills



One can simply wipe away finals mvps and season mvps based on biased criteria...
If you throw the million things that MJ is better at out, yes you could make a case for Kobe :lol

[Wade's Rings]

If you throw the million things that MJ is better at out, yes you could make a case for Kobe :lol

kenneth stays with the regular season achievements, where are kobe's playoff scoring records? where kobe's playoff game winners? where are kobe's finals game winners? :oldlol:

[24-Inch_Chrome]

kenneth stays with the regular season achievements, where are kobe's playoff scoring records? where kobe's playoff game winners? where are kobe's finals game winners? :oldlol:

B-b-but 81 points! Against the Raptors! :oldlol:

[Dr Hawk]

In 2015 he is ranked around Top10-15.

By 2020 he will be ranked around Top15-20.

[ImKobe]

fakegm is a horrible anti-kobe forum with mods banning anyone daring to speak nicely of him, I'm not even going to give them a click

[SpecialQue]

Why are you linking to Real Gay Men?

[dhsilv]

Its not a joke

Kobe has atleast 20 things on mj in terms of longevity, highs, records, streaks, nominations, eras, competition and certain skills



One can simply wipe away finals mvps and season mvps based on biased criteria...

Again, he was never the best player in the NBA let alone the CLEAR best for multiple years. You're talking about awards that he didn't remotely deserve and rings which really don't matter unless you're the reason you never got one. I'm talking about who was actually the best guy on the floor and Kobe's career stats without the rings and titles make him iffy on being top 20.

There is absolutely no argument that Kobe could be the "GOAT"

[dhsilv]

Kenneth shut it down....

2nd GOAT is top 5 in every meaningful category used to judge the all time top players...

all that's left is FG%.....lmao.




next

PER....VORP....WS.....BPM...........RAPM....MVP winshare....they eye ball test. Nope not top 5 in any of them. What else you got?

[Mr Feeny]

fakegm is a horrible anti-kobe forum with mods banning anyone daring to speak nicely of him, I'm not even going to give them a click

Tbf you'd be laughed out of that forum within a day and banned. You're not up to standard to last on there. That's precisely why you're on here trolling.

[AlphaWolf24]

Tbf you'd be laughed out of that forum within a day and banned. You're not up to standard to last on there. That's precisely why you're on here trolling.


- why would anyone want to stay on that site anyways?.....to argue all day about 1 - 4% difference in FG%...that place sucks.

I have an account from 09' there.....no fun at all.

[senelcoolidge]

25 years from now he will be mostly forgotten except by those older folks that actually saw him play. He won't be put among the elite of all time. Hall of Famer at least which is good.

[HOoopCityJones]

25 years from now he will be mostly forgotten except by those older folks that actually saw him play. He won't be put among the elite of all time. Hall of Famer at least which is good.

You kids sound retarded.

[Smoke117]

You kids sound retarded.

That should be very familiar for you then.

[ArbitraryWater]

That should be very familiar for you then.

https://thestanch.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/undertaker2.png

http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah306/MaleRuler/GIFs/5ze299r3_zpsct953k6k.gif

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-g8lryqrIiQQ/VEB08gCxJmI/AAAAAAAAChg/VvXTI2BCtBc/s1600/oprah_reaction.gif

http://www.kiss925.com/files/46680043_omg_reaction_gif.gif

http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah306/MaleRuler/GIFs/Havethis_874b4905755512b72acad3adc54f0be3_zpsejsnw sfq.gif

http://www.inflexwetrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/IFWT_shock.png

http://38.media.tumblr.com/5d275f4ef197ede7047cdd7087ed2a5e/tumblr_inline_ndm8jh5d8P1s8a39h.gif

[eeeeeebro]

kobe is a good player and thats that.. HE knows how to break down defense and hand the ball off to the bigman. THe problem right now is there is no talented big man for kobe to hand the ball of to so he is forced to take bad shots making him look like a worse player. BUT the truth is if you had someone like GASOL or david west maybe even a guy like amare stoudimare then KOBE would be a better player. CAUSE he knows how to use his moves to get a big man open. he got injured recently so he does not have as much power in his legs as before but the man can still play. AND i do not see him retiring like he is talking about.

[HOoopCityJones]

That should be very familiar for you then.

Put down the booze man, damn.:lol

You come here specifically to let out your drunk ass depressive pent up aggression on the forum.

[Smoke117]

Put down the booze man, damn.:lol

You come here specifically to let out your drunk ass depressive pent up aggression on the forum.

I'm sure I probably deserve that, but as I haven't been drinking since sunday...no skin off my teeth. That you have to get so personal shows how sore you are after that burn and just gives me a good laugh.

[Optimus Prime]

http://i.minus.com/il9XdA.gif

[JohnMax]

Again, he was never the best player in the NBA let alone the CLEAR best for multiple years. You're talking about awards that he didn't remotely deserve and rings which really don't matter unless you're the reason you never got one. I'm talking about who was actually the best guy on the floor and Kobe's career stats without the rings and titles make him iffy on being top 20.

There is absolutely no argument that Kobe could be the "GOAT"

The Art of Hating Kobe Bryant (http://www.playersvoice.com/nba/love-to-hate.html)

Then there is the group of haters who always seem to think that Kobe is the second best player in the league. To let this group tell it, Bryant has been the second best player in the NBA for over a decade, but the number one player changes every other year. Somehow, the number one player always seems to fall down the list but Kobe just never moves up. There was the "he

[ShaqTwizzle]

Do you guys think Hakeem has a case against Kobe All-Time?
Below I compared their Peak years (all stats are playoff stats).

Hakeem (93-97) (81 games) (4 years)
-----
28 / 11 / 4.2-apg / 3.3-bpg on .572%TS
26.5 PER


Kobe (06-10) (79 games) (5 years)
-----
30 / 6 / 5.3-apg / 1.5-spg on .570%TS
24.9 PER


Hakeem won 2 titles over that span as the man.
Kobe won 2 titles over that span as the man.

Not sure if you guys think Hakeem's 2 runs were more impressive or visa-versa.
__________________________________

Then let us look at their pre-peak years.

Hakeem (86 - 91) (6 years)
-----
27 / 12 / 2.2-apg / 3.7-bpg on 59%TS
26.7 PER


Kobe (00-04) (5 years)
-----
26 / 5 / 5.1-apg / 1.5-spg on 52%TS
21.4 PER


Now Kobe did win 3 titles during that span while Hakeem won none however Hakeem did not get to play with a SG the caliber of 00-02 Shaq during his early Prime years.

So for a good example if you put Hakeem with Jordan from 91-93 he would almost certainly have an extra 3 titles.

Anyway I think it is an interesting debate between the two.

[Smoke117]

Do you guys think Hakeem has a case against Kobe All-Time?
Below I compared their Peak years (all stats are playoff stats).

Hakeem (93-97) (81 games) (4 years)
-----
28 / 11 / 4.2-apg / 3.3-bpg on .572%TS
26.5 PER


Kobe (06-10) (79 games) (5 years)
-----
30 / 6 / 5.3-apg / 1.5-spg on .570%TS
24.9 PER


Hakeem won 2 titles over that span as the man.
Kobe won 2 titles over that span as the man.

Not sure if you guys think Hakeem's 2 runs were more impressive or visa-versa.
__________________________________

Then let us look at their pre-peak years.

Hakeem (86 - 91) (6 years)
-----
27 / 12 / 2.2-apg / 3.7-bpg on 59%TS
26.7 PER


Kobe (00-04) (5 years)
-----
26 / 5 / 5.1-apg / 1.5-spg on 52%TS
21.4 PER


Now Kobe did win 3 titles during that span while Hakeem won none however Hakeem did not get to play with a SG the caliber of 00-02 Shaq during his early Prime years.

So for a good example if you put Hakeem with Jordan from 91-93 he would almost certainly have an extra 3 titles.

Anyway I think it is an interesting debate between the two.


My first question would be...why are you leaving out Hakeems steals?...especially when he averaged MORE than Kobe...

Hakeem is the greatest defensive player of the modern era (1980 to the present)...if you are going to compare them you should at least be using all of his defensive stats and frankly even making that a part of your comparison. Kobe's defense isn't even in the same stratosphere as his was. You can't just throw some silly numbers out there and say this is a fair comparison. Your numbers comparison totally disregards how much bigger Dreams impact is defensively in regard to Kobe's.

[ShaqTwizzle]

Hakeem is the greatest defensive player of the modern era (1980 to the present)

Probably though David Robinson also deserves a mention.


Your numbers comparison totally disregards how much bigger Dreams impact is defensively in regard to Kobe's.

I agree with you though just adding in steals wouldn't really make much of a difference in that respect.
I felt like I could let people factor in the defensive gap on their own.

Perhaps some advanced or user collected stats would be useful in showing the large gap between the two on that end and I know some exist but I don't have them on-hand right now.

[Smoke117]

Probably though David Robinson also deserves a mention.



I agree with you though just adding in steals wouldn't really make much of a difference in that respect.
I felt like I could let people factor in the defensive gap on their own.

Perhaps some advanced or user collected stats would be useful in showing the large gap between the two on that end and I know some exist but I don't have them on-hand right now.

It makes a difference because his as a big man are actually higher than the guards. You are basically just using blocks because Hakeem is a big man and steals for kobe because he's a guard, but it's not Dreams fault he was also a better thief than Kobe while also being an all time great shot blocker lol. It just seemed unfair to me to disregard Hakeems steals because Kobe isn't a shot blocker.

I don't honestly get how anyone could put Kobe over Hakeem all time. His impact on the court is just so much higher because of the defense. He was also a premier scorer in the league just like Kobe too...but when it comes to defense Kobe isn't even close. It's why the 94 Rockets were able to win the championship...the fact that Dream just does so much and fills in so many holes by himself. The overall impact between these two players is separated by a huge margin game in-game out because of this.

[ShaqTwizzle]

It just seemed unfair to me to disregard Hakeems steals because Kobe isn't a shot blocker.

I understand and I don't disagree.
Guess I should have listed it.

Anyway.
Interesting fact regarding his stealing ability.

Players who got 100+ blocks & steals in a single season.
------------

Hakeem did it 13x times and would have done it 14 times if not for the 1999 lockout year.

Kevin Garnett did it 8x times.
B. Wallace did it 7x times.
Robinson 7x times.
Ewing did it 2x times.

No one else is even close I think.

[dhsilv]

Probably though David Robinson also deserves a mention.



I agree with you though just adding in steals wouldn't really make much of a difference in that respect.
I felt like I could let people factor in the defensive gap on their own.



Tim Duncan....KG both should be on the last if not the top. OH and crap Ben Wallace and D Howard. Oh and that "other" guy from Africa. I think you're missing a lot of guys as good or better.

[Smoke117]

Tim Duncan....KG both should be on the last if not the top. OH and crap Ben Wallace and D Howard. Oh and that "other" guy from Africa. I think you're missing a lot of guys as good or better.

...Tim Duncan nor KG are greater defensive players than Hakeem and Big Dave. Tim Duncan wasn't even a better defensive player than an older Robinson till around 2002 even. Those two are pretty firmly at the top of the modern era right now.

[dhsilv]

It makes a difference because his as a big man are actually higher than the guards. You are basically just using blocks because Hakeem is a big man and steals for kobe because he's a guard, but it's not Dreams fault he was also a better thief than Kobe while also being an all time great shot blocker lol. It just seemed unfair to me to disregard Hakeems steals because Kobe isn't a shot blocker.

I don't honestly get how anyone could put Kobe over Hakeem all time. His impact on the court is just so much higher because of the defense. He was also a premier scorer in the league just like Kobe too...but when it comes to defense Kobe isn't even close. It's why the 94 Rockets were able to win the championship...the fact that Dream just does so much and fills in so many holes by himself. The overall impact between these two players is separated by a huge margin game in-game out because of this.

Because hakeem is a much worse passer, might be a bigger ball hog, and was a black hole with the ball during the "prime" you listed. Because was at a somewhat peak level longer. Because kobe had more success.

I'll take hakeem but there's certainly an argument for Kobe and it's actually a pretty good one.

[Smoke117]

Because hakeem is a much worse passer, might be a bigger ball hog, and was a black hole with the ball during the "prime" you listed. Because was at a somewhat peak level longer. Because kobe had more success.

I'll take hakeem but there's certainly an argument for Kobe and it's actually a pretty good one.


That's the problem with the "success" argument. This isn't tennis...this is not a one on one game where one guy has absolute control over the outcome. After Sampson went down and those 80s Rockets pretty much fell apart they didn't exactly build much around Hakeem. There is a reason why so many people say that Hakeems supporting cast is one of the weakest ever in 94 when they won it. He never played with anyone CLOSE TO A PRIME SHAQ and I would take Pau Gasol over an older Drexler. Kobe won three times with a guy commonly in the top 10 who was in his prime...Hakeem won with NOBODY in the top 100 and a guy maybe around the top 40 who was past his prime. (drex) This argument of success is just bullshit. The fact of the matter is NO SANE PERSON for the first player they pick for their team would take Kobe Bryant over Hakeem Olajuwon...you would have to be crazy to. Hakeem is better, more impactful, greater...however you want to spin it, he is it.

[dhsilv]

That's the problem with the "success" argument. This isn't tennis...this is not a one on one game where one guy has absolute control over the outcome. After Sampson went down and those 80s Rockets pretty much fell apart they didn't exactly build much around Hakeem. There is a reason why so many people say that Hakeems supporting cast is one of the weakest ever in 94 when they won it. He never played with anyone CLOSE TO A PRIME SHAQ and I would take Pau Gasol over an older Drexler. Kobe won three times with a guy commonly in the top 10 who was in his prime...Hakeem won with NOBODY in the top 100 and a guy maybe around the top 40 who was past his prime. (drex) This argument of success is just bullshit. The fact of the matter is NO SANE PERSON for the first player they pick for their team would take Kobe Bryant over Hakeem Olajuwon...you would have to be crazy to. Hakeem is better, more impactful, greater...however you want to spin it, he is it.

I think honestly I can build a better team around Kobe if I can get a big man than I can around dream. Now it's harder to GET big men so I'd take less risk adverse choice.

The NBA was kinda crap imo in 94 and 95. I'm not sure that matters here, but it's a thought to mention. And that's the thing, we can argue stats and awards and if someone has a clear edge on them all (duncan>dream) we're done. Kobe's stats aren't better but his success was, so we have a leg. I'm not going to argue for kobe, I don't care enough or like him at all but he's got a case man.