MJ is the most double-teamed player of all time, besides Wilt

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-24-2015/QvXF8J.gif


During the Bulls-Pistons series, the Pistons' 4th quarter policy was to double-team MJ every single time he touched the ball.. Here's an examle from Game 6 of 1989 ECF, starting at the 9 minute mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4W_0I82B18&t=1h21m11s) - MJ is double-teamed 10 of 13 times he touched the ball to finish out the game.. The 3 times he didn't get doubled were because he shot the ball immediately - here's all 10 double-teams shown in gifs:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88



Here's a video of MJ against Atlanta - he's double-teamed 12 of 13 possessions from the 6:40 mark to the 8:40 mark - the consecutive double-teams are shown in rapid succession:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s



The youtube channel "Nobody Touches Jordan" did a video of Payton guarding MJ in Game 4 of 1996 Finals (link here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgFWyLRNsGk)) - MJ was doubled exactly 10 of the 20 times he caught the ball with Payton guarding - all 10 double-teams are shown if gifs here:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11792377&postcount=161



Here's the New York Times on Jordan, 1987:


"Last season, Jordan had to overcome the harrassment of zone traps and double-triple teaming to average 37.1 points a game."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s9_GKFNL9E&t=0m49s



Even on the post, MJ was double-teamed equally - here's a Shaq post video that shows him being doubled 33 of 62 times he caught the ball on the post (53%) compared to 52 of 103 in the MJ post video (50%).


SHAQ'S POST MOVES: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVxZs7dwCO8
MJ'S POST MOVES: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfSftZvpHJg


However, MJ got doubled all over the court, not just on the post - MJ's danger from anywhere on the court resulted in teams often doubling him 10+ possessions in a row, as various videos in the OP showed.. This type of every-possession double teams for 10 consecutive possessions never happened for Shaq, not even in the 2000 Finals.



By comparison, Lebron was doubled-teamed a TOTAL of 18 times in the entire Finals... So in comparison to MJ getting double-teamed 12 times in a single quarter, Lebron was doubled 3 times per game.


"Curry’s ability to guard one-on-one allowed the Warriors’ wing defenders to double-team LeBron James effectively. When James was double-teamed, the Cavaliers scored 5 points on 2-of-18 shooting (11 percent)".

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106718/iguodala-heads-all-playoff-defensive-team
.

[NZStreetBaller]

Nah, kobe is the most double teamed player.

MJ just apeears to be doubled because he runs into multiple defenders.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-24-2015/QvXF8J.gif


Here are gifs from the 1989 ECF, where the Pistons double-teamed MJ (full double-teams to get the ball out of his hands) on 10 of 13 times he touched the ball in the last 9 minutes of Game 6 - the 3 times he didn't get doubled were because he shot the ball immediately upon the catch:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88


Here's the entire game, queued at the 9 min mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4W_0I82B18&t=1h21m11s


If you watch ANY Jordan video, you'll see he's doubled about half the time, and his scoring occurs while running away from a double team or otherwise avoiding/eluding a double (shown above, and more examples here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703595&postcount=91)).. MJ is simply the most double-teamed player of all time, not named Wilt... This makes the gap between his stats and everyone else's even more impressive.


well, one question, were they hard doubles or soft doubles?

In soft doubles, the "double teamer" acts more as a free roamer, who doesent really try to force a steal or a jumpball. those are much easier to "score against" as in footage, both players above seemed to face those


not quite sure about this though, so i might be wrong.

[3ball]

Nah, kobe is the most double teamed player.


Show me a 5 minute stretch in ANY game where Kobe got doubled-teamed every time he caught the ball.

The bigger issue is whether a player's presence hurts or helps other players ability to play to their capacity, since that affects whether the team can play to capacity..

In Lebron's case, there are stats which show his style doesn't foster as much teamwork as say, Jordan's style.. For example, it's statistical fact that the APG of Wade, Kyrie, Mo Williams, Love and Bosh all decreased significantly alongside Lebron, while Pippen's and other teammates increased alongside Jordan.. This is statistical fact (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841).

Also, there was little or no increase in the Heat or Cavs' assist frequency during Lebron's time there, whereas the Bulls' assist frequency increased significantly during MJ's time - again, statistical fact (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446).. Off-ball players like MJ foster better teamwork - they always have low time of possession and are highly-assisted, so teammates literally have more assist opportunities and playmaking time.

[3ball]

well, one question, were they hard doubles or soft doubles?




it says in the OP they were hard doubles, and the gif (http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-24-2015/QvXF8J.gif) in the OP is obviously a 'full' or 'hard' double:





Here are gifs from the 1989 ECF, where the Pistons double-teamed MJ (full double-teams to get the ball out of his hands) on 10 of 13 times he touched the ball in the last 9 minutes of Game 6 - the 3 times he didn't get doubled were because he shot the ball immediately upon the catch:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88


Here's the entire game, queued at the 9 min mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4W_0I82B18&t=1h21m11s


If you watch ANY Jordan video, you'll see he's doubled about half the time, and his scoring occurs while running away from a double team or otherwise avoiding/eluding a double (shown above, and more examples here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703595&postcount=91)).. MJ is simply the most double-teamed player of all time, not named Wilt... This makes the gap between his stats and everyone else's even more impressive.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Show me a 5 minute stretch in ANY game where Kobe got doubled-teamed every time he caught the ball.

The OP shows you a stretch of 9 minutes where MJ got doubled 10 of 13 times he had the ball (FULL double-teams to get the ball out of his hands) - the 3 times he didn't get doubled were because he shot the ball immediately upon the catch.. Here are gifs of all 10 double teams and a link to the game, queued to the 9 min mark:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4W_0I82B18&t=1h21m11s

2 things.

1, it didnt seem like he was doubled as much from before the 9 minute mark
2, yeah, theyw ere hard doubles, so this is very impressive. Despite that, I could contend that his playstyle might have helped him eluded double teams

[Horatio33]

Shaquille O'Neal

[3ball]

2 things.

1) it didnt seem like he was doubled as much before the 9 minute mark


Right - the Pistons didn't turn on the "Jordan Rules" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m49s) and start doubling everytime until the 9 minute mark.

Before that - at the start of the 4th - MJ scored on Rodman twice and the Pistons took a timeout... After that timeout (around the 9 minute mark), they started double-teaming MJ every single time for the rest of the game... 10 out of 13 times they doubled him, and the 3 times they didn't was because MJ shot it immediately.

Again, all 10 double teams are shown here: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88






http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-27-2015/ZQEqEe.gif


2) yeah, they were hard doubles, so this is very impressive. Despite that, I could contend that his playstyle might have helped him eluded double teams



Agreed - in the last 24 games of the 1989 season, Collins started MJ at point guard... In the playoffs, he returned MJ to shooting guard, but still had MJ run the point in the 4th.. Unfortunately, this ball-dominant style at the most crucial parts of the game allowed MJ to get doubled incessantly... It played into the "Jordan Rules" perfectly.

Collins should've had MJ playing off-ball like the first 3 quarters and catching it on the move or on the wing in a PRE-dribble, stationary position (the triple-threat position, seen above - notice how Rodman has no chance vs. MJ's triple-threat).. The lower dribble-time and overall time-of-possession of this style lowers the possibility that MJ can be doubled as often or in time to get the ball out of his hands.

It was a major blunder by Collins to have MJ play point in the 4th against the Jordan Rules - it allowed him to get doubled incessantly.. It's not like MJ is Lebron or something, where his bad 1-on-1 efficiency and midrange allow teams to let him go 1-on-1 all alone like Kerr did in the Finals... No way... MJ's 1-on-1 and midrange efficiency was elite - you couldn't leave him all alone against a single defender.
.

[Purch]

Actually statisticlly he's not close to being the most double teamed player of all time.

That's actually Shaq. Stats were released a couple years ago.

[sekachu]

Nah, kobe is the most double teamed player.

MJ just apeears to be doubled because he runs into multiple defenders.




lol at you turn the other way around. It is kobe likes to run into multiple defenders or dribble too long to attract help defense. MJ always know how to dodge or makes the move before help defense comes

[3ball]

I'm not sure if you clicked the link, but it separates into contested and open shots. So you can compare apples with apples.


Vantage's definition of "contested" (within 3 feet with hands up) skews their data, because a much higher proportion of 2-pointers are shot with defenders DRAPED ALL OVER with significant physical contact, whereas that rarely happens or 3-pointers.

But yeah, I'm sure many 3-pointers are "contested" based on Vantage's criteria of the defender being within 3 feet with hands-up.. :rolleyes: .. But let's compare the proportion/frequency of fouls and AND1's on 2-pointers and 3-pointers - that will give us an idea of how much more heavily contested 2 pointers are.






But the article contains numerical proof that *contested* threes on a per shot basis are more valuable than *open* mid range shots (again, using the same definition of contested vs open for all shot types).




The argument isn't whether 3-pointers are more efficient - everyone knows they provide an extra point... The point I'm making is that 2-point attempts such as paint and midrange shots have far heavier contests than 3-point attempts - 3-pointers are almost never attempted with the kind of physical contact or borderline AND1 situations that are standard for 2-pointers.

Players have always been willing to take 2-pointers while enduring heavier contests than they'd be willing to endure for 3-pointers, which meant that the 2-point shooting eras didn't need to run as much offense to get quality looks as today's game.

The standard of settling for more heavily-contested 2-pointers in previous eras made pace faster than today's game, where teams must run more offense to get quality 3-point looks.

[KembaWalker]

Most doubled perimeter player probs

[NZStreetBaller]

Show me a 5 minute stretch in ANY game where Kobe got doubled-teamed every time he caught the ball.

The OP shows you a stretch of 9 minutes where MJ got doubled 10 of 13 times he had the ball (FULL double-teams to get the ball out of his hands) - the 3 times he didn't get doubled were because he shot the ball immediately upon the catch.. Here are gifs of all 10 double teams and a link to the game, queued to the 9 min mark:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4W_0I82B18&t=1h21m11s

You cant judge most double teamed player over an entire career by a 9 minute stretch..... btw you know that good off the ball movement especially in an equal opportunity offense can prevent double teaming from ever happening....

[andgar923]

Not sure if MJ is THE most doubled player ever, but he's certainly the most doubled perimeter player ever hands down.

Only reason I hesitate stating he's the most double teamed player in general, is because it's easier to collapse defenders in the paint. Specially when the paint was more crowded.

And as already mentioned, MJ's style made it harder to double more than a big camping in the paint since he moved around often, passed and cut efficiently, and was simply too fast.

But when it comes to perimeter players, MJ by a good margin.

[Trollsmasher]

still waiting for that empirical evidence, OP

[AirFederer]

Wilt? Lol.

Where`s Shaq?

[feyki]

Fan boy thread like kernnetthgriffins's.

[fpliii]

Some other guys that might be up there (all are probably top 10 in double teams you'd think):

Moses - Terrific scorer and rebounder but not the most willing passer at C.

Barkley - He on the other hand was a great passer but was finishing at the rim at Shaq/MJ levels.

Hakeem - After Sampson was traded, and without Lucas/Lloyd/Wiggins, he was doubled a ton.

[3ball]

You cant judge most double teamed player over an entire career by a 9 minute stretch.....
Again, point me to ONE 5 MINUTE STRETCH - it doesn't even have to be 9 minutes - where Kobe, Shaq or ANYONE is doubled-teamed every single time they catch the ball.. I'll wait

otherwise, take this L

[Dbrog]

Of course not. Illegal defense was a thing. Wtf you talking about Bruce? :oldlol:

Btw, doubles happened to Shaq literally all the time vs most teams.

[DonDadda59]

Shaquille O'Neal

Came to post this. But as far as perimeter players go it's easily MJ.

[Indian guy]

Probably the most doubled perimeter player ever. But big men were easily more doubled. Not even a comparison.

[senelcoolidge]

Not sure if MJ is THE most doubled player ever, but he's certainly the most doubled perimeter player ever hands down.

Only reason I hesitate stating he's the most double teamed player in general, is because it's easier to collapse defenders in the paint. Specially when the paint was more crowded.

And as already mentioned, MJ's style made it harder to double more than a big camping in the paint since he moved around often, passed and cut efficiently, and was simply too fast.

But when it comes to perimeter players, MJ by a good margin.

OP said MJ was the most doubled player not named Wilt. Perimeter for sure.

[aj1987]

EVERYONE IS BLINDLY SAYING THAT BIG MEN GET DOUBLED MORE, BUT SHOW ME WHERE YOU'VE SEEN A BIG MAN GET DOUBLED FOR 9 MINUTES EVERY TIME THEY CAUGHT THE BALL LIKE I SHOWED IN THE OP.

SHAQ GOT TONS OF SINGLE-COVERAGE, WHICH IS WHY HE AVERAGED 40 PPG IN VARIOUS PLAYOFFS SERIES - TEAMS HAD TO PICK THEIR POISON WITH THE LAKERS - DOUBLE SHAQ AND LET FISHER, FOX, HORRY GO CRAZY WITH THREES, OR PLAY HIM STRAIGHT UP... TEAMS OFTEN OPTED TO PLAY SHAQ STRAIGHT-UP AND HE WAS VIRTUALLY NEVER DOUBLED EVERY SINGLE POSSESSION LIKE MJ... EVER... THE JORDAN RULES BASICALLY MEANT "DOUBLE TEAM HIM EVERY TIME HE CATCHES IT"... NO BIG MAN EVER FACED THIS TYPE OF EVERY-SINGLE-POSSESSION FREQUENCY EXCEPT WILT.
You are ****ing retarded. Seek help, kid.

[3ball]

Crock of shit. :oldlol:

The best Lebron is just as good as best Jordan.

The 5 years stretch of 09-13 Bron is just as good as Jordan's 89-93 stretch.

28/8/7 on 52% shooting vs 32/7/6 on 52% shooting.

Bron with a 30.4 PER during that time and 61% TS...
MJ with a 30.3 PER during that time and a 59% TS...

You acting as if he wouldn't be either the best or second best player in the league. :oldlol:
Playoffs Per 100 Possession:

JORDAN 89'-93' (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1989-1993-sum:playoffs_per_poss): 44.2 pts.. 8.6 reb... 8.8 ast.. 3.0 stl.. 50.3 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 120 ORtg.. 30.0 PER
LEBRON 09'-13' (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2009-2013-sum:playoffs_per_poss): 36.5 pts. 11.5 reb.. 8.3 ast.. 2.3 stl.. 49.3 fg.. 58.7 ts.. 118 ORtg.. 29.1 PER


Per Game in Finals:

MJ 91'-93': 36.3 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 7.9 apg.. 2.0 spg.. 0.76.. bpg.. 52.6 fg.. 40.7 3 pt
LEBRON 11'-13': 24.7 ppg..

[PHILA]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hScvvOtBOi4&t=1m25s

[3ball]

Came to post this. But as far as perimeter players go it's easily MJ.
How could teams double Shaq more than MJ, when teams had to worry about Kobe and all the shooters (fisher, fox, horry)??.. Teams had to pick their poison against the Lakers - this is a fact, whereas opponents could just load up on MJ.

Due to Kobe and all the shooters, teams COULDN'T double-team Shaq every single possession - but they could against MJ, because MJ didn't have Kobe or a bunch of 3-point shooters.

Again, no one can show me a stretch where Shaq is double-teamed virtually every time he catches the ball - I've checked - such instances don't exist.. :confusedshrug:

[aj1987]

You're the one spouting a lie - teams COULDN'T double team Shaq every possession like teams could do MJ, because teams had to pick their poison with the Lakers: double Shaq and make it easier for Kobe, while Fisher, Horry and Fox go crazy with threes, or play him straight up.. Otoh, opponents didn't have to pick their poison against the Bulls - they could just load up on MJ.

Teams opted to play Shaq straight up a lot - he virtually NEVER got doubled every single possession like MJ.. Ever.. Teams couldn't take that risk with Kobe on that team and all the shooters.. Otoh, the "Jordan Rules" meant "double-team MJ every time he catches it" - no big man ever faced this type of every-single-possession frequency of double-teaming, except Wilt.

Everyone is blindly saying that big men get doubled more, but no one can show me where a big man got doubled for 9 minutes straight every time they caught the ball like I showed in the OP.
Seek help, dude. Seriously. You have a mental condition which needs to be addressed.

[3ball]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hScvvOtBOi4&t=1m25s
You only posted a 4 minute stretch, where Shaq was doubled a total of 4 times and wasn't doubled at the 4:07 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hScvvOtBOi4&t=4m07s) mark, the 4:53 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hScvvOtBOi4&t=4m53s) mark, or the 8:05 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hScvvOtBOi4&t=8m05s) mark.

It's amazing how people post something for LESSER than what I posted, and then act like what they posted is meaningful - the OP showed a 9 minute stretch where MJ was doubled every time he caught the ball.. And you come back with a 4 minute stretch where Shaq is doubled only 4 times and not every time he had the ball.

Btw, your 1992 Jordan shot chart is inaccurate because it drastically overstates the number of isolations - you counted every single drive he made as an isolation, even though many of his catch-and-go drives and other drives aren't isolations - like, you had 1 category for his drives: isolations.. That's a little lazy, just like you posting a clip of Shaq NOT getting doubled every time and for only 4 minutes.

[PHILA]

Btw, your 1992 Jordan shot chart is inaccurate because it drastically overstates the number of isolations - you counted every single drive he made as an isolation, even though a lot of his catch-and-go drives and other drives aren't isolations.. That's a little lazy, just like your posting of Shaq NOT getting doubled every single time and for only 4 minutes.
Yes I was aware of that while compiling the data. But it was not as big a discrepancy as you may think. Jordan was certainly the greatest scorer ever on the move, and plays where he caught the ball and immediately went to work did not count as isolations. But the plays where he kept the ball for longer than a couple seconds (usually using a jab step) before shooting or driving against a half court defense was what I recorded as isolation play. However the shot charts and especially the playoff clutch data is accurate. There is no highlight bias at all with the clutch data (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=322375). That is his entire playoff career.

Even looking at Jordan only on isolation jump shots, he was still shooting over 53% on only 2.5 attempts per game.

[3ball]

Yes I was aware of that while compiling the data. But it was not as big a discrepancy as you may think. Jordan was certainly the greatest scorer ever on the move, and plays where he caught the ball and immediately went to work did not count as isolations. But the plays where he kept the ball for longer than a couple seconds (usually using a jab step) before shooting or driving against a half court defense was what I recorded as isolation play. However the shot chart and especially the playoff clutch data is accurate.


What category is the bolded above categorized under?

From what I can tell, you had 1 category for his drives: isolations

Nonetheless, other than the overstatement of his isolations, I appreciate your work and think it's stellar... I wish the NBA would pay guys to do that type of work for old footage so we have advanced stats for previous eras like we have for today's game.
.

[jlip]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hScvvOtBOi4&t=1m25s

Bob Costas at 1:34...

They get it deep to O'neal...The Pacers hold a team meeting around him. :roll:

The entire Pacer's team literally converged on Shaq as if no other Laker was playing.

Also @ PHILA,

I think some time ago either you or Round Mound (I can't remember who) did a post regarding Barkley being double teamed so much. Was it you?

[3ball]

Bob Costas at 1:34...

They get it deep to O'neal...The Pacers hold a team meeting around him. :roll:

The entire Pacer's team literally converged on Shaq as if no other Laker was playing.

Also @ PHILA,

I think some time ago either you or Round Mound (I can't remember who) did a post regarding Barkley being double teamed so much. Was it you?
The Shaq clip is only a 4 minute stretch, where Shaq was doubled a total of 4 times and wasn't doubled at the 4:07 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hScvvOtBOi4&t=4m07s) mark, the 4:53 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hScvvOtBOi4&t=4m53s) mark, or the 8:05 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hScvvOtBOi4&t=8m05s) mark.

This doesn't compare to the 9 minutes of incessant double-teaming MJ faced shown in the OP.. The reason Shaq wasn't doubled as much as MJ, is because teams had to pick their poison against the Lakers: they could double-team Shaq, which opens it up for Kobe, along with three-pointers from Fisher, Horry and Fox - or play Shaq straight up and stay at home on Kobe/Horry/Fisher.. Otoh, opponents didn't have to pick their poison against the Bulls - they could just load up on MJ because he didn't have Kobe or a bunch of 3-point shooters.

Teams opted to play Shaq straight up a lot - he virtually NEVER got doubled every single possession like MJ.. Ever.. Teams couldn't take that risk with Kobe on that team and all the shooters.. Otoh, the "Jordan Rules" meant "double-team MJ every time he catches it" - no big man ever faced this type of every-single-possession frequency of double-teaming, except Wilt.

Everyone is blindly saying that big men get doubled more, but no one can show me where a big man got doubled for 9 minutes straight every time they caught the ball like I showed in the OP.
.

[PHILA]

What category is the bolded above categorized under?
Depends on how his movement before getting the ball, for instance whether he cut to the basket, came off a screen on the weakside, drove out of a post up play, etc.

A couple of examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUKuRxshqL8&t=1m5s

For most other players would be a post up or isolation, but given how quickly he turned that corner this goes under the Off Screen category. Keep an eye on Cartwright's screen that got Jordan the mismatch with Cadillac Anderson.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDqJZ96hOBU&t=2m7s

This goes under the Isolation category even though it was a quick iso. Like the clip above, he starts off flashing for a quick look in the post, but when that is not available he comes off a screen for a quick isolation at the top of the key. I know Synergy would probably have plays like this as Off Screen instead of Isolation, so that may be something to keep in mind. That 1587 figure for total iso plays can be misleading if it is interpreted as Jordan being that much of a ball dominant figure. I would say the while Jordan was certainly shot dominant, he was not ball dominant to that extent. Phil Jackson took his offensive game to another level in 1990 with the traingle offense.



The Jordan Rules: The Inside Story of Michael Jordan and the Chicago Bulls - Sam Smith

http://i.imgur.com/zKZqZbM.png

[PHILA]

I think some time ago either you or Round Mound (I can't remember who) did a post regarding Barkley being double teamed so much. Was it you?

Yes, Barkley with the Sixers is the one guy I have seen who basically commanded an instant double team just by touching the ball inside of the 3 point line. He loved attacking from the left wing. Even though I have seen critics who called him a ball stopper, the team impact data shows him as one of the offensive GOAT's.

[catch24]

Shaq was the most double-teamed player in modern history. Kareem and Wilt were more doubled in the past.

Jordan isn't even close.

[3ball]

Depends on how his movement before getting the ball, for instance whether he cut to the basket, came off a screen on the weakside, drove out of a post up play, etc.


Again, you have 1 category for MJ's drives: isolations

That's wildly inaccurate, obviously, and a significant overstatement - there's no way all his drives are isolations, and to assume so is wrong and creates a significant error in the numbers.

[Vaniiiia]

Shaq was the most double-teamed player in modern history. Kareem and Wilt were more doubled in the past.

Jordan isn't even close.
This.

Dude sits there all day watching ONLY Jordan highlights... maybe why his posts are ONLY about Jordan?

He knows nothing outside of Jordan and blatantly makes shit up to prop him. Kinda sad to see a guy use a pro athlete for attention that he's obviously lacking outside the internet...

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2015/uAh_p8.gif


Jordan on isolation jump shots, was shooting over 53%



MJ's 53% on isolation jumpers is a stark contrast from the 40% and 33% that Lebron shot on isolations in the regular season and playoffs, respectively, and that included shots at the rim, not just jumpers like MJ's 53% represented.

Lebron's 40% and 33% shooting on isolations in RS and PO ranked him 135th out of 315, and 35th out of 39, respectively.

That's how we know MJ could've won the 2015 Finals... He would've shot well over 50% in Lebron's shoes, given all the secluded isolations Lebron enjoyed where he was all alone on the strongside and faced an open paint - MJ never got isolations like that (seen above) where he had the entire strongside to himself AND and open paint - but Lebron enjoyed those kind of iso's for the entire series.

[PHILA]

Again, you have 1 category for MJ's drives: isolations

That's wildly inaccurate, obviously, and a significant overstatement - there's no way all his drives are isolations, and to assume so is wrong and creates a significant error in the numbers.
No those are just isolation drives. Quite a few of his drives also came out of the following plays: Post Up, Off Screen, P&R Ball Handler, Cut To Basket and were recorded as such on the chart.

[3ball]

Shaq was the most double-teamed player in modern history. Kareem and Wilt were more doubled in the past.


This is complete bullshit - Shaq virtually NEVER got doubled every single possession like MJ.. Ever.. Teams couldn't take that risk because of Kobe and all the shooters (horry, fox, fisher).

Without a guy like Kobe or a bunch of 3-point shooters, teams didn't have to pick their poison against the Bulls and could load up on Jordan... Whereas teams had to PICK THEIR POISON when they played the Lakers - they could double Shaq and let Kobe, Horry, Derek Fisher go off, or they could play Shaq straight-up and stay at home.

Everyone is blindly saying that big men get doubled more, but no one can show me where a big man got doubled for 9 minutes straight every time they caught the ball like I showed in the OP.

[PHILA]

If you are looking for his isolation play tendencies, I also posted that in the original thread.


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9177131&postcount=4

*Jordan's shooting tendencies & effectiveness when making a move off the dribble either to the left or right. Also recorded turnovers in each of these instances, including stolen pass outs, offensive fouls, getting stripped by the defense, or being forced into a jump ball (and possession lost).



Drive Right

Pull-Up Jumper/Runner/Leaner - 292 Plays, 35 Fouls, 146/249 FG (58.6%), 14 TOV, 358 Points, 1.23 PPP

Attack Basket - 225 Plays, 85 Fouls, 107/161 FG (66.5%), 1 TOV, 353 Points, 1.57 PPP

Overall - 517 Plays, 120 Fouls, 253/410 FG (61.7%), 15 TOV, 711 Points, 1.38 PPP



Drive Left

Pull-Up Jumper/Runner/Leaner - 212 Plays, 28 Fouls, 104/189 FG (55.0%), 2 TOV, 250 Points, 1.18 PPP

Attack Basket - 345 Plays, 109 Fouls, 154/232 FG (66.4%), 34 TOV, 479 Points, 1.39 PPP

Overall - 557 Plays, 137 Fouls, 258/421 FG (61.3%), 36 TOV, 729 Points, 1.31 PPP

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/PIt8Kg.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/TGZukz.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/jzLx3O.gif


No those are just isolation drives. Quite a few of his drives also came out of the following plays: Post Up, Off Screen, P&R Ball Handler, Cut To Basket and were recorded as such on the chart.


The first GIF above is a catch-and-go drive and not an isolation, but you categorized this type of shot as an isolation - that's inaccurate - catch-and-go where MJ doesn't hold the ball even for a second and the defender isn't set set are not isolations.

In the 2nd and 3rd GIF's, MJ is double-teamed, but you called them isolations as well - again, that's inaccurate.

[HurricaneKid]

I know when I make statistical assertions like OP did I back it up with more than anecdotal video that includes 9 min out of MJs 48,485 min played.

Good GOD OP. How are you so ridiculous? I mean at some point it HAS to sink in right?

[Kblaze8855]

Nobody needs to show anyone some arbitrary number of minutes being double teamed. There are tens of thousands of games from some of the best scorers ever....that will never be seen again.

Bob Mcadoo has like 4 games total from his prime with good footage. Im gonna act like I know how much he was double teamed due to footage from one 50 point night?

George Mikan had teams so shook they stalled their way to a 19 point game and forced the creation of the shot clock. Im gonna assume based on a few minutes of footage that teams never doubled him a whole game?

This is an issue that cant be resolved because only the most popular of modern players have enough footage to consider. Jordan has a cult like following uploading everything of note he ever did.

You cant rationally say "We have footage of Jordan doing this and that suggests hes the only one".

The NBA didnt even record most games that aired on tv till Stern suggested it when he was still just a young guy in the league offices working his way up.

Games were shown live and there was no effort to even save highlights. Its one thing I give him credit for. Stern is the reason we have a lot of full game highlights from before the 90s.

But people still listened to the radio as much as watched games even when I was a kid. We used to occasionally have to LISTEN to Bulls games....40 years after the NBA was created.

But im gonna assume I know how often Elvin Hayes was doubled on the Rockets?

Jordan was doubled a lot.

Thats all there is any evidence to suggest. Most ever or most since ____ just isnt worth arguing over.

We dont have the evidence to even begin the discussion.

[ClipperRevival]

These MJ gifs are beautiful. Like poetry in motion. So quick, so fluid, so explosive with no wasted motion. GOAT gonna GOAT.

[3ball]

I know when I make statistical assertions like OP did I back it up with more than anecdotal video that includes 9 min out of MJs 48,485 min played.


The 9 minutes is just one example... When he scored 61 against the Hawks and 53 against Indiana in 1987, he eluded double teams for most of his points.. I'll post stretches from those games where he was doubled teamed every time he caught the ball.

This type of every-possession double-teaming is something you can't show me for any other player - the best anyone's been able to do is post a 4 minute stretch where Shaq was doubled 4 times, and not every time he caught the ball... Only MJ faced this type of every-possession double-team.

[ClipperRevival]

There is absolutely no doubt MJ had the most attention of any perimeter player in history and it's not even close. Bigs? That's another story. But perimeter? Not even close.

The "Jordan Rules" saids it all. One of the best teams ever were so worried about #23, they said, "Fu*k it, we'll let everyone else get theirs but we have to stop #23 at all costs." They threw 2-3 guys at him constantly. It's simply a fact. He was THAT dangerous and THAT scary to the opposition.

[PHILA]

The first GIF above is a catch-and-go drive and not an isolation, but you categorized this type of shot as an isolation - that's inaccurate - catch-and-go where MJ doesn't hold the ball even for a second and the defender isn't set set are not isolations.

In the 2nd and 3rd GIF's, MJ is double-teamed, but you called them isolations as well - again, that's inaccurate.

2nd gif looks like him coming off a screen play (this time as the screener) and faking the defense closing out to drive to the hoop. Nowhere near an isolation.

1st and 3rd gifs do not show his activity beforehand to get himself in a position to receive the ball. I would need to see that before placing them in a category. I did not just count every drive as an isolation like you are suggesting.

[warriorfan]

Michael Jordan and Steph Curry are the two most doubled perimeter players of all time

[3ball]

I did not just count every drive as an isolation like you are suggesting.



You count every MJ double-team as an isolation, like these:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-10-2015/biPAFm.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-11-2015/cyFnUr.gif



You count every catch-and-go as a isolation, like these:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-24-2015/Jewc60.gif


The bottom line is that you categorized catch-and-go drives and double teams as isolations.. That makes your estimate of MJ's isolation proportion (which was about 40-45% or something based on your numbers) materially overstated.

[PHILA]

You count every MJ double-team as an isolation, like these:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-10-2015/biPAFm.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-11-2015/cyFnUr.gif



You count every catch-and-go as a isolation, like these:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-24-2015/Jewc60.gif


The bottom line is that you categorized catch-and-go drives and double teams as isolations.. That makes your estimate of MJ's isolation proportion (which was about 40-45% or something based on your numbers) materially overstated.

I did not count every "catch-and-go" drive as an isolation (most of these were off screens), nor did I count every double team as an isolation, as he was also doubled a lot in the post & out of the pick and roll. That first gif vs. Orlando is clearly an isolation. The 2nd gif vs the Spurs looks more like a post up play where he drives out of the post. I agree the isolation is a bit overstated, for those plays I would look at the tendencies post to get a more accurate picture.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

I did not count every "catch-and-go" drive as an isolation (most of these were off screens), nor did I count every double team as an isolation, as he was also doubled a lot in the post & out of the pick and roll. That first gif vs. Orlando is clearly an isolation. The 2nd gif vs the Spurs looks more like a post up play where he drives out of the post. I agree the isolation is a bit overstated, for those plays I would look at the tendencies post to get a more accurate picture.

Hi.

I really, REALLY respect your work.

that being said, are their any other players you are making "shot charts" for right now?

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

I did not count every "catch-and-go" drive as an isolation (most of these were off screens), nor did I count every double team as an isolation, as he was also doubled a lot in the post & out of the pick and roll. That first gif vs. Orlando is clearly an isolation. The 2nd gif vs the Spurs looks more like a post up play where he drives out of the post. I agree the isolation is a bit overstated, for those plays I would look at the tendencies post to get a more accurate picture.

I havent read much of your debate.

but to be honest, I find his isolation ppp much more impressive than the idea of him being double teamed alot.

[PHILA]

Hi.

I really, REALLY respect your work.

that being said, are their any other players you are making "shot charts" for right now?

Larry Bird 84-88 playoffs. Still missing some games though.

[3ball]

I did not count every "catch-and-go" drive as an isolation (most of these were off screens)


What about the catch-and-go's that WEREN'T off-screens?... There's no category for this.. You categorized them as isolations, which is inaccurate and results in an overstatement of the proportion of isolations..

Don't get me wrong - I understand that MJ was more skilled at isolating defenders because he could isolate players QUICKLY in spots where most players cannot, but 45% isolation rate is ridiculously high... Should be somewhere in the 30's.





That first gif vs. Orlando is clearly an isolation.



How can it be an isolation if he's getting double-teamed?.. Makes no sense.. Same thing with these GIFs - these aren't isolations either, but there's no category for them in your data:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/ZGUxyC.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-30-2015/fOCP0H.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/QmCJlv.gif


Again, there's no category for these kinds of double-teams, which means you must've counted these as isolations... This is why MJ's isolation proportion is overstated in your data... But the tendencies post helps a ton, true.
.

[PHILA]

I havent read much of your debate.

but to be honest, I find his isolation ppp much more impressive than the idea of him being double teamed alot.

Yes even if he was isolating at that volume, he was still unbelievably efficient. Most players couldn't maintain that efficiency at a lower volume. I may consider Jordan again only looking at playoff games to get a more accurate picture, at least I can fast forward though it this time if I don't keep track of that possession team data.

There are only two games I am missing for Jordan at his playoff peak (1990-93) right now:

1990 vs. Bucks Game 3 (1st Half missing)

1993 vs. Cavaliers (Games 2 & 4 Missing)

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Larry Bird 84-88 playoffs. Still missing some games though.

Do you have any future plans.

I dont want to sound overbearing, and these are requests, but what do you think of Robinson, defensively.

I think he overachieved with his rosters the most, other than Lebron.


Also, how much would you estimate Jordan scored in regular, non-catch and go iso situations?
I recall that he had an abnormally high iso success rate in your study, at first, I though it was just because he was goat and all of that, but looking at footage, his catch and go drives (those are correctly categorized I think) probably skewed it a bit. I mean,

ACTUALLY, I have an idea.

where you do get the footage of those games?

Just wondering, if its to much to ask, could you send it to a site such as synergy or JE? they do great things there. One thing I would like to see is RAPM numbers. I mean, looking at your Jordan study, you definately have enough data for him. (generally, 100 ish games is a decent sample).

Also, what about Wilt and Russell? how much footage do you have of them?

Sorry if this sounds overbearing, but the guys at realgm would salivate over some RAPM data for peak Jordan.

It would also be interesting to look at some Russell and Wilt games, from an on-off point of view (though, considering their minutes, it would be funny if they went on a 1 minute run and the on-off rating was something ridiculous like -100)

I mean, alot of people talk about Russell's HOF teammates (which they were, not taking anything away from them) but if Im not mistaken, while Russell was injured, discounting his rookie year, I recall they went 10-18 without him, with a srs rating of -2.02 (granted, srs and point differential were horribly skewed, due to the pace of the game causing many blowouts, one way or another)

[sd3035]

Shaq, Kobe, Durant, and Curry

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2015/uAh_p8.gif


I find MJ's isolation ppp much more impressive than the idea of him being double teamed alot.



PHILA's data shows that MJ had a 1.23 PPP on isolations (which includes some double-teams that shouldn't be included, so the number is actually higher).

MJ's 1.23 PPP on isolations is a stark contrast from Lebron's 0.93 and 0.70 PPP in regular season and playoffs, respectively, which ranked him 114th out of 315 in RS, and 35th out of 39 in playoffs.

That's how we know MJ could've won the 2015 Finals... He would've shot well over 50% in Lebron's shoes, given all the secluded isolations Lebron enjoyed where he was all alone on the strongside and faced an open paint - MJ never got isolations like that (seen above) where he had the entire strongside to himself AND and open paint - but Lebron enjoyed those kind of iso's for the entire series.

[juju151111]

PHILA's data shows that MJ had a 1.23 PPP on isolations (which includes some double-teams that shouldn't be included, so the number is actually higher).

MJ's 1.23 PPP on isolations is a stark contrast from Lebron's 0.93 and 0.70 PPP in regular season and playoffs, respectively, which ranked him 114th out of 315 in RS, and 35th out of 39 in playoffs.

That's how we know MJ could've won the 2015 Finals... He would've shot well over 50% in Lebron's shoes, given all the secluded isolations Lebron enjoyed where he was all alone on the strongside and faced an open paint - MJ never got isolations like that (seen above) where he had the entire strongside to himself AND and open paint - but Lebron enjoyed those kind of iso's for the entire series.
I firgot to save it but he was also shooting 50% on midrange in 97 at 34 years old.

[PHILA]

How can it be an isolation if he's getting double-teamed?.. Makes no sense..
He is isolating on the wing before the double team arrives. I did not keep track of double teams at all when compiling this data. I agree though his isolation percentage is probably in the mid to high 30's for a full season.


Do you have any future plans.
Magic perhaps, Moses Malone, Ewing, Robinson, etc.


I dont want to sound overbearing, and these are requests, but what do you think of Robinson, defensively.

I think he overachieved with his rosters the most, other than Lebron.
Very underrated player, he is in conversation for greatest defensive player after Russell.



Also, how much would you estimate Jordan scored in regular, non-catch and go iso situations?

I recall that he had an abnormally high iso success rate in your study, at first, I though it was just because he was goat and all of that, but looking at footage, his catch and go drives (those are correctly categorized I think) probably skewed it a bit.
I am not sure, I may do a playoff only version to get a better picture and actually record the data like synergy does this time.



where you do get the footage of those games?
Most of them came from sport-scene.net which has since been taken down for some reason, probably copyright.


Just wondering, if its to much to ask, could you send it to a site such as synergy or JE? they do great things there. One thing I would like to see is RAPM numbers. I mean, looking at your Jordan study, you definately have enough data for him. (generally, 100 ish games is a decent sample).
I don't see the point since I am sure the NBA already has the complete season data going back to the early 90's. This is possible highlight bias as well. Now that playoff clutch data can be used as an official standard, at least by 82games method.


Also, what about Wilt and Russell? how much footage do you have of them?
Very little is known to exist, most of which is up on Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/user/Hal15Greer/videos). But only a few games from Russell's prime exist (one of which is complete) and zero complete games from Wilt's prime are available.


Sorry if this sounds overbearing, but the guys at realgm would salivate over some RAPM data for peak Jordan.
I don't think that is possible unless you have the play by play data for every player in the NBA during those years.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

PHILA's data shows that MJ had a 1.23 PPP on isolations (which includes some double-teams that shouldn't be included, so the number is actually higher).

MJ's 1.23 PPP on isolations is a stark contrast from Lebron's 0.93 and 0.70 PPP in regular season and playoffs, respectively, which ranked him 114th out of 315 in RS, and 35th out of 39 in playoffs.

That's how we know MJ could've won the 2015 Finals... He would've shot well over 50% in Lebron's shoes, given all the secluded isolations Lebron enjoyed where he was all alone on the strongside and faced an open paint - MJ never got isolations like that (seen above) where he had the entire strongside to himself AND and open paint - but Lebron enjoyed those kind of iso's for the entire series.

Alright, I respect your basketball knowledge, but seriously, stop this Lebron Agenda. Nobody on ISH believes that peak Lebron is better than Peak MJ.

I personally rate Lebron highly.

But here is my opinion on looking at play types.


Something that people overlook, is that how many playtypes, result in other playtypes. I mean, there is a reason why the ball-handler pick and roll is run so much, despite its low effeciency.

after executing the pick and roll, passes are usually made, which result in spot ups, cuts, etc. these arent measured by play type stats.

Likewise, how many of Lebron's isos actually end up with him passing to a cutter, for a score?

Im willing to bet that in certain games, many of them, but the iso wont be credited with the point. the Cut will.


Lebron is overrated on the isolation. that much I will agree with.

As for WHY MJ's Isolation game was so good, ill repost here what I did on Realgm.

For Jordan, I believe its the fact that he could do so much that no one could see.

ill just add my arguement in another page here.
I believe that he does alot of things that no one sees, which is a testament to his bball iq, and his overall skillset.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8MP6839B78

ill just put in a few plays where I think jordan is underrated in bball iq

in 2:20, the timing of his jab step was superb. he pretty much time it exactly as his defender was coming off the screen, so he was rushing back to get to jordan, and was left off balance. the window to use this jab step to basically get him off-balance, in this situation, was literally less than half a second. the defender had to over commit to one side, and jordan simply bursted past him in the other side.
in around 2:30, he made a really subtle head fake. while this by itself is quite normal, though the way he did it was quick and pretty much perfect, the important thing to note is that there was a guard literally right next to him that had barely even started running to the corner, making it seem much more legitimate. he basically read what his teammate was going to do before his teammate himself knew it.

in 3:48 ish, there was a really subtle head fake. it was hard to see even when slowing down teh video to 0.25 speed, that got the defender leaning. not only that, but he did a push through crossover that really was just long enough to avoid the defenders hands, but short enough that jordan kept full control/full speed. considering that he scored over 1.9ppp in transition according to some studies, it seems like he would do this on a majority of his transition plays, its just so hard to see. Its more clearly seen int eh 4 minute mark, and its obvious that the defender expected him to go the other way, as he shifted his foot jsut enough so jordan could get past him.

in 4:50, its another show of how he times his jab steps. he basically timed it as his defender was still approaching him, and his left foot was in the air, which made him lean a little, once again.

in 6:45, this is a reason why I think he was much better in the early ninetys than post baseball. normally, even athletic players like westbrook and Wall start "preparing" their fastbreak shot around teh ft line. They only really prepare it furthur when they are literally completely open, to the point where a clear path foul is possible. With Jordan, he regularly, as long as he had a clear few steps to gather, prepared his transition buckets from the 3 point line, and simply used a mixture of his long arms and long strides to just simply find a perfect angle to jump between the gaps of the defense.

6:53 demonstrates his ability to basically understand the mindset of his defender. it seems just like a simple hesitation, and then a crossover. in my opinion, he did something brilliant. he basically played the whole game at full throttle, either making it a point to really get past the defender completely, with room to spare, or take a jab and swing the other way. What he did here was go at a medium pace. at this point, his defender had basically been manhandled, so he pretty much really overcommitted. had he done this earlier, i doubt this would have worked. his ability to change pace multiple times in one possession was frankly astounding. he basically kept a medium pace this time to pretty much displace his defender, and get to the basket at the same time. Something else, is that he used his patented tounge while going during the hesitation, basically making it seem like he would 100% go at that certain direction. something I find unique is how he kept his head low throughout. imo, other superstars usually keep their head a little bit higher during their hesitation moves, making it seem more obvious imo. (a general concept I learned is the lowest head always wins)

7:25 demonstrates his ingenuity. he uses a referee as a screen. he also gets into an argument with Danny Ainge, basically meaning he would have won if a fight started, and his reputation would have been bolstered.

at around 7:50, he made the most subtle move of the game. first of all, he timed this perfectly, just as his defender was lifting his foot that he wanted to "move away" Secondly, the speed at which he did this head fake was probably the fastest one so far. while he was bringing the ball down. he actually made it seem like he would bring it down to the right, and moved his head very slightly to the right, first, if one slows the footage down and watches frame by frame.


IIRC, most stars, even those who actually shoot a higher percentage than MJ at the rim, rarely have these moments.

Someone similar to him is wade, in this type of thing though. not as good obviously, but the most "invisible" play I saw was actually from wade.

[Hey Yo]

MJ's 53% on isolation jumpers is a stark contrast from the 40% and 33% that Lebron shot on isolations in the regular season and playoffs, respectively, and that included shots at the rim, not just jumpers like MJ's 53% represented.

Lebron's 40% and 33% shooting on isolations in RS and PO ranked him 135th out of 315, and 35th out of 39, respectively.

That's how we know MJ could've won the 2015 Finals... He would've shot well over 50% in Lebron's shoes, given all the secluded isolations Lebron enjoyed where he was all alone on the strongside and faced an open paint - MJ never got isolations like that (seen above) where he had the entire strongside to himself AND and open paint - but Lebron enjoyed those kind of iso's for the entire series.
Heavy speculation on your part. We have no idea what kind of performance MJ would have put up playing in his 5th straight Finals.

You keep referring to the 2015 Finals as if it was fresh legged LeBron playing. Could he have played better, sure. But don't make it sound as if he hadn't logged many postseason minutes up until then. It was a miracle they won 2 games.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

He is isolating on the wing before the double team arrives. I did not keep track of double teams at all when compiling this data. I agree though his isolation percentage is probably in the mid to high 30's for a full season.



Magic perhaps, Moses Malone, Ewing, Robinson, etc.


Very underrated player, he is in conversation for greatest defensive player after Russell.



I am not sure, I may do a playoff only version to get a better picture and actually record the data like synergy does this time.



Most of them came from sport-scene.net which has since been taken down for some reason, probably copyright.


I don't see the point since I am sure the NBA already has the complete season data going back to the early 90's. This is possible highlight bias as well. Now that playoff clutch data can be used as something


Very little is known to exist, most of which is up on Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/user/Hal15Greer/videos). But only a few games from Russell's prime exist (one of which is complete) and zero complete games from Wilt's prime are available.


I don't think that is possible unless you have the play by play data for every player in the NBA during those years.


I mean, the thing is, Synergy Sports and alot of other sites dont actually use this footage. if they had it, then im sure they would do something with it. they are very creative lol.

im sure JE doesent have the data.

Im not quite sure how the RAPM data works, but I do think that all we need is the Bulls seasons to do this, as I think that in essense, RAPM data is just lineup adjusted on-off ratings..

Also, while your Jordan analysis is VERY good, to be honest, its the BEST read in terms of on Jordan I have ever seen, In my opinion, there might have been a slight problem with the stats. the Misc category seems far too filled, though considering he was a special player, that could have been why.

Im guessing the guys at synergy would just compile the lineup/play by play data for the bulls from footage. anyway, this is more of a "what if?" kind of thing.

Again, this is just a request.

[PHILA]

Again, this is just a request.
Now that sport-scene.net is down, a lot of what I use is from Youtube. I don't know what the request is for, but I am pretty sure they already have the data and are just sitting on it for whatever reason. The NBA even talked about digitizing its archive (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8338965&postcount=22) going back to the 1950's. These 5 channels are great for old NBA games.


https://www.youtube.com/user/michalus/videos

https://www.youtube.com/user/supereldoncloud/videos

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCio3Yej1qXnqYRmB0THRELQ/videos

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8-044bto1AXpoC6xiH5ntA/videos

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCo6OfBwxOb89-e0S-GXWxyw/videos

[juju151111]

How many double teams do you guys count here please tell me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOS1qNTWb70

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Now that sport-scene.net is down, a lot of what I use is from Youtube. I don't know what the request is for, but I am pretty sure they already have the data and are just sitting on it for whatever reason. The NBA even talked about digitizing its archive (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8338965&postcount=22) going back to the 1950's. These 5 channels are great for old NBA games.


https://www.youtube.com/user/michalus/videos

https://www.youtube.com/user/supereldoncloud/videos

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCio3Yej1qXnqYRmB0THRELQ/videos

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8-044bto1AXpoC6xiH5ntA/videos

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCo6OfBwxOb89-e0S-GXWxyw/videos


ahh, oh well.

Thanks for the videos though:rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon:

[juju151111]

ahh, oh well.

Thanks for the videos though:rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOS1qNTWb70

[3ball]

there's a reason why the ball-handler pick and roll is run so much, despite its low effeciency


:wtf:

Screen-roll/drive-and-kick is the MOST efficient play in today's game - that's why it's used so much - it yields the highest PPP.. The reason drive-and-kick has become the highest efficiency play and is now the foundation of every team's offense is because today's 3-point shooting makes screen-roll/drive-and-kick more mathematically worthwhile than before - driving and kicking for 3-pointers yields a far higher PPP than driving-and-kicking for 2-pointers.

It's a statistical fact that WITHOUT 3-pointers, the efficiency of screen-roll/drive-and-kick plummets and isn't worthwhile anymore.. If you removed the 3-point line from today's game, nothing could prevent post, midrange, and off-ball play from making a comeback and supplanting drive-and-kick like in the 80's and 90's.

This is how we know that Lebron would suck in the 80's.... Lebron's lack of midrange, isolation and off-ball ability prevents him from being as good back then, when these were the primary options remaining in the absence of the 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile.

Without teammates spreading the floor for him and making drive-and-kick the force it is today, Lebron would have to score from the mid-range like everyone else in the 80's - since he sucks at mid-range, we know for a fact he would be a lesser player back then.

[Smoke117]

3ball we know you don't like the modern era of basketball...you've repeated it enough times for us not to know, but don't you like any other players from the Jordan era? Can't you at least use this shtick on a different player? You have already said everything you have to say about Jordan 100 times or so...have some pity on us and say the same shit over and over about a different player.

[3ball]

Can't you at least use this shtick on a different player?


It's not a schtick... It's the truth... Lebron's horrible midrange means he wouldn't be as good in the 80's when that was the primary option without the 3-point shooting needed to make drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile..

I mean, if Lebron shot 50% from midrange instead of 35%, then I would have no argument - but his horrible midrange efficiency enables the argument to be true... Btw, his horrible midrange efficiency is the reason for his horrible isolation efficiency, since 1-on-1 results in a lot of midrange.





have some pity on us


http://dc379.4shared.com/img/w6pOLZ3Z/s3/12ab7f3afd8/Steven_Seagal_Animatie_2_Bew.gif

[Poochymama]

3ball we know you don't like the modern era of basketball...you've repeated it enough times for us not to know, but don't you like any other players from the Jordan era? Can't you at least use this shtick on a different player? You have already said everything you have to say about Jordan 100 times or so...have some pity on us and say the same shit over and over about a different player.

Thing is, he actually knows a shit ton, and most of the time what he says is true, but it's about 2 players...all the time. Really just makes me not like Jordan tbh.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

:wtf:

Screen-roll/drive-and-kick is the MOST efficient play in today's game - that's why it's used so much - it yields the highest PPP.. The reason drive-and-kick has become the highest efficiency play and is now the foundation of every team's offense is because today's 3-point shooting makes screen-roll/drive-and-kick more mathematically worthwhile than before - driving and kicking for 3-pointers yields a far higher PPP than driving-and-kicking for 2-pointers.

It's a statistical fact that WITHOUT 3-pointers, the efficiency of screen-roll/drive-and-kick plummets and isn't worthwhile anymore.. If you removed the 3-point line from today's game, nothing could prevent post, midrange, and off-ball play from making a comeback and supplanting drive-and-kick like in the 80's and 90's.

This is how we know that Lebron would suck in the 80's.... Lebron's lack of midrange, isolation and off-ball ability prevents him from being as good back then, when these were the primary options remaining in the absence of the 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile.

Without teammates spreading the floor for him and making drive-and-kick the force it is today, Lebron would have to score from the mid-range like everyone else in the 80's - since he sucks at mid-range, we know for a fact he would be a lesser player back then.

That is what I'm saying-ish I guess.

But the actual ball handler pick and roll I recall is technically the lowest average in terms of points per possession alone.

[knicksman]

Mj is the most doubled team player while bran is being defended like a role player yet his stans has the guts to compare him to mj.lol

[KG215]

I know of a game, that definitely has footage, of Durant being double teamed full court for most of the game. Can I link footage of that game and claim no one has ever been doubled to the same extent even though there are thousands upon thousands of games of all-time greats that I've never seen and never will?

The hell is up with 3ball's bullshit tactic of using a limited sample size or limited pool of data and Stretch Armstronging his way to reach the conclusion that "Jordan iz da GOAT"?? Who the hell thinks that's a sound and logical arguing technique?

[juju151111]

It's not a schtick... It's the truth... Lebron's horrible midrange means he wouldn't be as good in the 80's when that was the primary option without the 3-point shooting needed to make drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile..

I mean, if Lebron shot 50% from midrange instead of 35%, then I would have no argument - but his horrible midrange efficiency enables the argument to be true... Btw, his horrible midrange efficiency is the reason for his horrible isolation efficiency, since 1-on-1 results in a lot of midrange.
Watch the amount of doubles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOS1qNTWb70
http://dc379.4shared.com/img/w6pOLZ3Z/s3/12ab7f3afd8/Steven_Seagal_Animatie_2_Bew.gif
Watch the doubles https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOS1qNTWb70

[aj1987]

I know of a game, that definitely has footage, of Durant being double teamed full court for most of the game. Can I link footage of that game and claim no one has ever been doubled to the same extent even though there are thousands upon thousands of games of all-time greats that I've never seen and never will?

The hell is up with 3ball's bullshit tactic of using a limited sample size or limited pool of data and Stretch Armstronging his way to reach the conclusion that "Jordan iz da GOAT"?? Who the hell thinks that's a sound and logical arguing technique?
That's 3ball for you. He cherrypicks stats and arguments and keeps going in a circle like a dog trying to catch its tail. Try typing a length reply which absolutely wrecks him, he ignored most of it and replies to one single point, going back to the same retarded argument.

[3ball]

Watch the doubles https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOS1qNTWb70


^^^ That game was MJ's 53 point game against Indiana in 1987, where he faced incessant double-teams on every possession.

I posted another game below - watch two minutes from the 6:40 mark to the 8:40 mark.. The video shows MJ being double-teamed 12 times in a row in the 4th quarter - they are shown in rapid succession.. It's amazing - NO PLAYER has ever been double-teamed like that, except Wilt... The announcers mention how MJ was being doubled on every single possession at the 7:55 and 8:18 marks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s

[Vaniiiia]

I know of a game, that definitely has footage, of Durant being double teamed full court for most of the game. Can I link footage of that game and claim no one has ever been doubled to the same extent even though there are thousands upon thousands of games of all-time greats that I've never seen and never will?

The hell is up with 3ball's bullshit tactic of using a limited sample size or limited pool of data and Stretch Armstronging his way to reach the conclusion that "Jordan iz da GOAT"?? Who the hell thinks that's a sound and logical arguing technique?
KD was double teamed literally every possession in 2013 against the Grizzlies.

3ball knows nothing outside of Jordan, and all these threads do is expose his lack of bball knowledge.

I think he's doing it on purpose for attention just like kennethgriffin. Kinda sad.

[3ball]

KD was double teamed literally every possession in 2013 against the Grizzlies.

3ball knows nothing outside of Jordan, and all these threads do is expose his lack of bball knowledge.

I think he's doing it on purpose for attention just like kennethgriffin. Kinda sad.
Post the video showing Durant being doubled every time he touched it, or stfu.

I provided video in the OP, and my previous post above showed another game where MJ was doubled 12 times in a row.. I'll repost it here - it's only 2 minutes long - the double-teams are shown in rapid succession starting at the 6:40 mark to the 8:40 mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s

[Vaniiiia]

Post the video showing Durant being doubled every time he touched it, or stfu.

I provided video in the OP, and my previous post above showed another game where MJ was doubled 12 times in a row.. I'll repost it here - it's only 2 minutes long - the double-teams are shown in rapid succession starting at the 6:40 mark to the 8:40 mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s
I don't do the work of peasants like you.

No time to dig up video footage of shit I watched with my own two eyes and have a clear memory of... I don't need to prove anything, it's already out there.

Go find it yourself. I mean, what else do you have to do? You've literally been on here all day copy/pasting the same material.

I know you don't actually watch the NBA, which means you don't remember anything that happened in 2013, so it might actually be a learning experience for you to go dig up some footage that has nothing to do with the guy that got his father killed. You need to branch out.

[3ball]

Post the video showing Durant being doubled every time he touched it, or stfu.


I don't do the work of peasants like you.

No time to dig up video footage of shit I watched with my own two eyes and have a clear memory of... I don't need to prove anything, it's already out there.

Go find it yourself. I mean, what else do you have to do? You've literally been on here all day copy/pasting the same material.

I know you don't actually watch the NBA, which means you don't remember anything that happened in 2013, so it might actually be a learning experience for you to go dig up some footage that has nothing to do with the guy that got his father killed. You need to branch out.
http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/twit.gif

[Vaniiiia]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/twit.gif
Cute.

But here's a more accurate depiction of you:

http://i.imgur.com/eEe3mul.gif

:lol


Just admit I get to you on a personal level AND on a fan level. I own your soul 2 ball. Thass just the way it be. Not only do I expose Jordan but I expose YOU in the process.

With no effort either. Someones gonna post the Durant footage FOR ME, and you'll meltdown further and further until eventually you stop coming here anymore. My bullying tactics have ended more careers on here than even I'd like to admit.

I'm off for now though big dawg. Keep on fightin' the good fight... exposing Jordan for being inferior to both KD AND LeBron. :oldlol:

#60WinsWithoutJordan

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/twit.gif

Just sayin, while I don't agree with some of what you say, you rekt him.

[knicksman]

Cute.

But here's a more accurate depiction of you:

http://i.imgur.com/eEe3mul.gif

:lol


Just admit I get to you on a personal level AND on a fan level. I own your soul 2 ball. Thass just the way it be. Not only do I expose Jordan but I expose YOU in the process.

With no effort either. Someones gonna post the Durant footage FOR ME, and you'll meltdown further and further until eventually you stop coming here anymore. My bullying tactics have ended more careers on here than even I'd like to admit.

I'm off for now though big dawg. Keep on fightin' the good fight... exposing Jordan for being inferior to both KD AND LeBron. :oldlol:

#60WinsWithoutJordan

Meltdown:oldlol:

[ShaqTwizzle]

Shaq was the most double-teamed player in modern history.

Agreed.
The 00 & 02 Finals are a good example if you want to see a crazy amount of double/triple teaming.
Indiana even doubled Shaq off the ball at times.
Shaq is the most double/triple teamed guy ever.

Also Mr. 3ball keeps saying that Jordan was doubled everytime he ever had the ball but I recently watched some footage of the 92 Finals (Chicago VS Portland) and while I didn't watch the whole series I watched a good deal of it and I rarely saw Portland double teaming Jordan and infact their defense looked pretty awful at times letting Jordan get easy looks for jumpers and flat out letting him take open deep jumpers sometimes.
Again I didn't watch the whole series just parts of it but clearly they were not double teaming him a good deal of the time.
Portlands defense didn't seem to have great unity and guys seemed to just try and stick with their own assignment for the most part.

[3ball]

Agreed.
The 00 & 02 Finals are a good example if you want to see a crazy amount of double/triple teaming.
Indiana even doubled Shaq off the ball at times.
Shaq is the most double/triple teamed guy ever.


If Shaq was double-teamed so much, it shouldn't be hard to find a stretch where he is double-teamed every time he caught the ball - not just 3 or 4 times in a row - 10 times in a row like the videos of MJ showed earlier itt.

Shaq has never been double-teamed 10 possessions in a row like MJ - this happened to MJ a lot, but it never happened to Shaq, in part because Shaq was always on stacked squads where it would be detrimental to double Shaq every possession and let Kobe go off, or let Fisher/Fox/Horry go crazy from three.

Otoh, MJ had zero help until about 1990... Up until then, MJ was frequently doubled EVERY SINGLE TIME HE TOUCHED IT - again, if this really happened to Shaq, it shouldn't be hard to find a stretch where he is doubled every time he catches the ball.. I've shown several instances where this type of every-possession double-teaming happened to MJ - but no one has provided that for Shaq - everyone SAYS he got doubled more than MJ, but they can't prove it... But I have already PROVEN that MJ got doubled more, whereas you guys are just talking out of your ass.

[ShaqTwizzle]

If Shaq was double-teamed so much, it shouldn't be hard to find a stretch where he is double-teamed every time he caught the ball - not just 3 or 4 times in a row - 10 times in a row like the videos of MJ showed earlier itt.


I am sure it wouldn't be hard to find that or something comparable to your Jordan example.
I don't have the energy right now to do it though.
I give you props for your effort.



Shaq has never been double-teamed 10 possessions in a row like MJ - this happened to MJ a lot, but it never happened to Shaq

You say this but you can't off your head remember all of Shaq's playoff games and how he was defended in them so how could you know either way?
I definitely remember many games where he was doubled literally everytime he got the ball and occasionally off the ball.


in part because Shaq was always on stacked squads where it would be detrimental to double Shaq every possession and let Kobe go off

That really isn't true.
Shaq's 00 & 02 squads were pretty weak honestly.
Just Kobe and a couple of ok roleplayers.

Pippen in the early 90's put up better numbers then Kobe did in 00 or 02 and he played better defense.
Jordan also had Grant while Shaq never had a special 3rd guy like that.

He also had many other years with crap casts that lacked even a single All-Star caliber player.
>inb4 Van Exel and Jones were actual All-Stars
No they were not.


or let Fisher/Fox/Horry go crazy from three.

These guys aren't exactly renown sharp shooters and they shot poorly from deep in some of their runs/seasons.
Look up the playoff stats for the 00 Laker squad and you'll see how little support Shaq had outside of Kobe.
That squad was incredibly thin, old, unproductive and inefficient.


Otoh, MJ had zero help until about 1990... Up until then, MJ was frequently doubled EVERY SINGLE TIME HE TOUCHED IT

You haven't provided much evidence for this other then one video where MJ was facing a team known to focus their defense more specifically on him then most other teams did.
You also provided a gif where he wasn't doubled at all.

Also how Jordan was doubled during his contending years doesn't matter?
I would think that would matter even more.


everyone SAYS he got doubled more than MJ, but they can't prove it...

That is actually true but the fact remains that neither side can prove it so we are kind of wasting time here.

I watched plenty of Jordan in the 90's and tons of Shaq in the early 00's and per my memories Shaq was double/triple teamed considerably more often and far more consistently.

I think a big part of that is simply the fact that post players are much easier to double and perimeter players are very rarely doubled until they instigate a move and have moved towards the basket.

While with post scorers the second the offense moves to get them the ball or throws them the ball the defense can immediately react and double.
I am sure you get what I am saying there.

I think defenses also improved and became more cohesive while just "sticking with your man" becomes more common the further you go back.

But yeah there isn't any real point of debating this since it would take a ton of time to actually track how often they were double/triple teamed over a large number of playoff games for both players and actually formulate a factual picture of how it went down.

I can respect your opinion and hopefully you can respect mine.

:kobe:

[3ball]

:facepalm

[3ball]

You haven't provided much evidence for this other then one video


I provided two other videos - you must have missed them earlier itt.

Here's a video of him against Atlanta - he's double-teamed 12 of 13 possessions from the 6:40 mark to the 8:40 mark - the double-teams are shown in rapid succession:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s


Here's another video of him against Indiana:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOS1qNTWb70





I definitely remember many games where Shaq was doubled literally everytime he got the ball and occasionally off the ball.


Why is everyone relying on their memory from 15 years ago??.. Unless you have photogenic memory, it's impossible to remember every single possession for 15 years ago - and that's what I'm talking about - every... single.... possession.. nothing less than that.

Shaq was never doubled every single possession for extended stretches like MJ was.. Unless you can SHOW me where he was, it's sheer dumbness for anyone to rely on your memory from 15 years ago.. I won't rely on your memory, and no one else should either.






Shaq's 00 & 02 squads were pretty weak honestly.

Just Kobe and a couple of ok roleplayers.



Just a top 10 all-time player that people said for a while was as good as MJ and possibly the GOAT...

You can't do any better than having a top 10 all-time player as your #2.





Jordan also had Grant while Shaq never had a special 3rd guy like that.


Grant was nothing more than an ordinary play-finisher who averaged 11/8 during the 1991-1993 championship runs with Jordan in RS and PO and also 11/8 for his entire career.. If you think he was anything more than a play-finisher, then you don't know basketball and/or didn't watch him play... period.. end of story... this is not debateable...

It's like some kid 15 years from now trying to say Tristan Thompson was a special, rare kind of 3rd option.. gtfo





That is actually true but the fact remains that neither side can prove it so we are kind of wasting time here.


I proved it - see the video - I provided 3 videos itt where MJ was doubled every possession for extended stretches - and you've provided zero.

So I've proved my case, and you haven't proven shit - you want us to rely on your memory from 15 years ago... gtfo






per my memories Shaq was double/triple teamed considerably more often and far more consistently.



Again, **** your memory - show the video or stfu - you spent more time with your long-ass response than it takes to find video of Shaq being doubled every possession for extended stretch.





He also had many other years with crap casts that lacked even a single All-Star caliber player.


Massive lie obviously - ruins your credibility Laz - Shaq played with all-stars his entire career.. He played with Penny in Orlando... In 1998, he had 3 other all-stars on his team - Van Exel, Eddie Jones, and Kobe.. During the championship years, he had a top 10 all-time player (Kobe) as his #2 - you can't do better than that.

[ShaqTwizzle]

I provided two other videos - you must have missed them earlier itt.

Either way you are cherry picking what is in reality .000000000000000000000000001% of MJ's career and presumably didn't use any footage from his contending years.
You haven't proved anything except that if you cherry pick you can "prove" anything you want.
Not to say that MJ didn't get double teamed plenty especially over isolated stretches but the same is true even for a guy like Kobe.


Why is everyone relying on their memory from 15 years ago??

Because without the data there isn't much else to do.
I can look up a game where Shaq was doubled constantly but what would be the point?
That would still be cherry picking and doesn't truly prove anything.


Shaq was never doubled every single possession for extended stretches like MJ was.

Because you say so?
Or because you have the greatest photogenic memory of All-Time and watched all Shaq's playoff games so you can truly say that and be right?

Oh right... you're actually just speaking out of your arse.
I get it.


I won't rely on your memory, and no one else should either.

And I won't waste time agreeing with a shitt* cherry picking argument.
I could easily provide the same cherry picked examples but there'd be no point as I have already explained.

>inb4 since I won't waste the time to do it I am obviously wrong and you are right



Just a top 10 all-time player that people said for a while was as good as MJ and possibly the GOAT.

We don't judge the value of a supporting star based on how great their careers turned out.

00 Kobe : 21.1 / 4.5 / 4.4 on 52%TS
92 Pipp : 19.5 / 8.8 / 6.7 on 54%TS

02 Kobe : 26.6 / 5.8 / 4.6 on 51%TS (20.5 PER)
91 Pipp : 21.6 / 8.9 / 5.8 on 56%TS (22.0 PER)

This doesn't take into account Pippen's large defensive advantage either.

Kobe's career ranking is bolstered primarily by his late 00 years (06-10).
In 00 & 02 he was not a more productive, efficient or better performing 2nd option then early 90's Pippen was as you can plainly see.


Grant was nothing more than an ordinary play-finisher who averaged 11/8 during the 1991-1993 championship runs with Jordan in RS and PO and also 11/8 for his entire career.

Grant was a great player and a better 3rd wheel then any Shaq had from 00-02.


If you think he was anything more than a play-finisher.
He was much more then that.


I provided 3 videos itt where MJ was doubled every possession for extended stretches - and you've provided zero.

Knowing your delusions he probably wasn't even doubled every possession like you say.
In that GIF you posted in the first page he wasn't even doubled.
I am not quite sure you know what a real double is.

The fact remains that the majority of people believe Shaq was doubled more then MJ.
Neither of us have concrete proof and your 2-3 cherry picked examples (even if they are legit) certainly don't prove anything.
Incredibly small sample.

I atleast have the intelligence to say that since neither of us can prove it right now there is no point in debating it.
You on the other hand will say "look at my 3 minutes of cherry picked game it proves me right!" etc...


He played with Penny in Orlando.

Yes. For 2 years.
Penny was a legit All-Star.


In 1998, he had 3 other all-stars on his team - Van Exel, Eddie Jones, and Kobe.


Van Exel was a flashy chucker who didn't play defense and didn't care about winning.
He was certainly not a true All-Star caliber player or a guy you could win a title with as your #2.

In the 1998 WCF as the Lakers lost to Utah this is what he averaged.
*
Van Exel : 9.0-ppg / 4-apg on 36%TS
----
Yup... that is an All-Star alright.
______________________________

Jones was an elite roleplayer who didn't have the skillset needed to maintain his averages in the playoffs.

In the 98 WCF this is what he averaged.
*
Jones : 15.0-ppg / 3.3-apg on 52%TS
----
Yup... that is All-Star level production right there...
______________________________

Oh and let us not forget the best of the bunch, Kobe, who was a super dominant All-Star in 1998 as you would imply.
Let us see how he did in that same series.

Kobe : 10.0-ppg / 1-apg on 37% shooting

Wow... another All-Star level performer.
How did Shaq lose?

You've been ethered.
Good night.

:yaohappy:

[poido123]

This.

Dude sits there all day watching ONLY Jordan highlights... maybe why his posts are ONLY about Jordan?

He knows nothing outside of Jordan and blatantly makes shit up to prop him. Kinda sad to see a guy use a pro athlete for attention that he's obviously lacking outside the internet...


3ball is clearly obsessed with Jordan, but there's no denying he knows him well. Just because he rants a lot, doesn't mean he's a dumb fck.


You and him share a strong similarity. You are both completely crackers.

[poido123]

I don't do the work of peasants like you.

No time to dig up video footage of shit I watched with my own two eyes and have a clear memory of... I don't need to prove anything, it's already out there.

Go find it yourself. I mean, what else do you have to do? You've literally been on here all day copy/pasting the same material.

I know you don't actually watch the NBA, which means you don't remember anything that happened in 2013, so it might actually be a learning experience for you to go dig up some footage that has nothing to do with the guy that got his father killed. You need to branch out.


LOL.


Simon is getting the treatment from 3ball

:roll: :roll:

[warriorfan]

MJ is the most double teamed player of all time. Especially when you account for double teams plus distance from the basket. Yeah, Shaq was doubled a lot, when he was in the restricted zone. No two double teams are equal, drawing a double team away from the hoop is more valuable than drawing a double team close to the hoop.

Therefore we can say that MJ attracted MORE defensive attention than Shaq. We can also say that Steph Curry attracted MORE defensive attention than Shaq.

Pulling defense INTO the hoop is way less productful than pulling defense AWAY from the hoop. Which what Michael Jordan and Steph Curry did.

Therefore we can say that Michael Jordan and Steph Curry drew FAR more attention away from the basket than Shaq or any other player in the history of the game. Thus boosting offenses in ways that were never seen before Jordan or Curry.

[ShaqTwizzle]

MJ is the most double teamed player of all time.


I don't think that is true.
Shaq was doubled more and it was pretty much a commonly accepted fact (one that was repeated on air many times) that single covering Prime Shaq was suicide for opposing defenses.
Just wasn't done most of the time because he was almost automatic in those situations against most defenders.
Even an older Shaq consistently drew double teams because he was so hard to stop with single coverage.


No two double teams are equal, drawing a double team away from the hoop is more valuable than drawing a double team close to the hoop.

Why is that?
A double team is a double team and teams don't double on the perimeter using their C's.

Also even a guy like Jordan wasn't doubled on the perimeter very often.
Was only closer to the basket (mid-range area) or once he made a move towards the basket that the doubles or extra attention came.

Curry is doubled/trapped out on the 3pt line 100x more often then Jordan ever was.
But he is a very unique shooter so there is a reason for it.

I also think collapsing a defense into the paint has its own advantages.


Pulling defense INTO the hoop is way less productful than pulling defense AWAY from the hoop.

Haven't really explained why and if you have a cast of good shooters I would think collapsing guys into the paint would help them out more.
Maybe if you had slashers it would benefit more? but again teams aren't gonna double on the perimeter using their rim protectors so that argument doesn't seem to work.

[warriorfan]

I don't think that is true.
Shaq was doubled more and it was pretty much a commonly accepted fact (one that was repeated on air many times) that single covering Prime Shaq was suicide for opposing defenses.
Just wasn't done most of the time because he was almost automatic in those situations against most defenders.
Even an older Shaq consistently drew double teams because he was so hard to stop with single coverage.

Even if he was doubled more than MJ, which he was not, what good do you bring your team if you attract the defense INTO the hoop, rather than away from it?

The best shot in basketball is a layup or dunk, anyone who knows ball knows this.

So would you rather have your teammate, A) Draw the defense away from the hoop, or B) Draw your defense towards the hoop.

You want your teammates to draw defenders away from the hoop, giving you a better opportunity at the best shot in basketball. This is basketball 101 here.

[ShaqTwizzle]

Even if he was doubled more than MJ, which he was not, what good do you bring your team if you attract the defense INTO the hoop, rather than away from it?

The best shot in basketball is a layup or dunk, anyone who knows ball knows this.

So would you rather have your teammate, A) Draw the defense away from the hoop, or B) Draw your defense towards the hoop.

You want your teammates to draw defenders away from the hoop, giving you a better opportunity at the best shot in basketball. This is basketball 101 here.

Yes but perimiter guys aren't drawing out C's or rim-protectors so it doesn't make a difference.
Shaq dragging rim-protectors 5-8+ feet away from the hoop with another 1-2 perimiter guys not only opens up outside shooters for jumpers but also clears the perimiter, clears the lanes and makes it easier for slashers to get by their man, build up steam and finish at the basket either unimpeded or over a recovering bigman who probably will have a hard time stopping the now full steam perimiter guy without fouling him.

Wade himself said Shaq made it easier for him to slash and do his thing and had some of his best playoff series playing with/off of him.

[ShaqTwizzle]

Oh and as I already mentioned most of the double teams Jordan drew were in the mid-range area or right around the basket so it really isn't that much different then where Shaq was doing it.

Curry is the only one out of the three who was regularly getting trapped or doubled near the 3pt line.

[warriorfan]

Yes but perimiter guys aren't drawing out C's or rim-protectors so it doesn't make a difference.
Shaq dragging rim-protectors 5-8+ feet away from the hoop with another 1-2 perimiter guys not only opens up outside shooters for jumpers but also clears the perimiter, clears the lanes and makes it easier for slashers to get by their man, build up steam and finish at the basket either unimpeded or over a recovering bigman who probably will have a hard time stopping the now full steam perimiter guy without fouling him.

Wade himself said Shaq made it easier for him to slash and do his thing and had some of his best playoff series playing with/off of him.

Drawing a 7 foot guy 5 feet away from the hoop? So that means he can close in for a shot block with literally one step. That isn't doing much at all.

A true basketball mind would much rather have defenders away from the hoop. The Bigman is going to have to rotate onto the guard or let him take a free shot. If the Bigman shows on the perimeter than he will get toasted from a pass to the cutter. The objective of the offense is to draw the defense as far from the easiest shots as possible. The way you do this is through outside spacing and drawing double teams on the perimeter, not jampacking the paint. Creating clusterfuccs in the paint is counter-productive to creating easy opportunities for scoring. This is why LeBron-Ball fails at a high level. Instead of drawing attraction to the perimeter, LeBron can only attract defensive attention by collapsing in the paint...thus not giving as efficient looks as drawing double teams from the perimeter.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Oh and as I already mentioned most of the double teams Jordan drew were in the mid-range area or right around the basket so it really isn't that much different then where Shaq was doing it.

Curry is the only one out of the three who was regularly getting trapped or doubled near the 3pt line.

I doubt anyone honestly thinks Jordan was double teamed more than Shaq.

[3ball]

I won't waste the time to find Shaq being doubled every possession



Waste time??... It takes more time to type the long responses you've provided itt than it should take to find Shaq being doubled for extended periods.

Of course, Shaq was never doubled every possession for extended periods like MJ was - I went through all the games from the 2000 Finals, when Shaq was at his uber-peak... The most he was ever doubled was 3 times in a row.

It never happened for longer stretches like MJ, for 2 reasons: 1) the option was always there to send Shaq to FT line - he has a zillion unearned FT's in his career... 2) For Shaq's entire career, he played with All-NBA guards and a bevy of 3-point shooters, so it was far more dangerous to double Shaq than MJ, whose 80's teams were a 1-man show with no 3-point shooters.. All irrefutable facts.






http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-24-2015/QvXF8J.gif


MJ isn't even doubled in the above GIF



Jordan is clearly about to be double-teamed, but he avoids it by spinning the other way.. It's clear as day.. But apparently, whatever blinders you're wearing are reaaallly effective.

Also, if I wanted to (and I might), I could find many more instances of MJ being doubled every possession for extended periods.. All I have to do is look up ANY Bulls-Pistons playoff game from 1988-1990 - that's when MJ faced the "Jordan Rules", which were double teams every time he caught the ball!!





he probably wasn't even doubled every possession like you say.

your 2-3 cherry picked examples (even if they are legit) certainly don't prove anything.


So the bolded above implies that you purposefully didn't watch any of the evidence I provided itt - you obviously didn't look at the gifs I posted in the OP that showed MJ was doubled every time he caught the ball for 9 minutes...

And you didn't watch the Atlanta game where MJ was doubled on 12 of 13 possessions (shown below from 6:40 mark to 8:40 mark).. You won't watch the evidence because you're afraid of what you'll see (MJ being doubled in a fashion that Shaq never was):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s

[ShaqTwizzle]

Waste time??... It takes more time to type the long responses you've provided itt than it should take to find Shaq being doubled for extended periods.


Any video of Prime Shaq will show him being doubled consistently.
Go watch G2 of the 2001 Finals if you want.
Doubled on almost every possession.

Jordan was never auto-doubled over his Prime against almost every opponent the way Shaq was.


whose 80's teams were a 1-man show with no 3-point shooters.. All irrefutable facts.


Yeah well in the 90's Jordan had Pippen and sharp shooters like Kerr, Kukoc and Paxson.
He was doubled far less then.
Go watch the 92 Finals. Portland barely doubled Jordan in that series.


Jordan is clearly about to be double-teamed

The help was late. Jordan was not doubled on that play.


Also, if I wanted to (and I might), I could find many more instances of MJ being doubled every possession for extended periods.

I watched one of the videos and it wasn't all doubles.
Yes I am sure you can find games where Jordan got heavily doubled and the same is true for Shaq (but in greater quantity).


All I have to do is look up ANY Bulls-Pistons playoff game from 1988-1990 - that's when MJ faced the "Jordan Rules", which were double teams every time he caught the ball!!

Yes Detroit went after Jordan pretty hard.
Jordan still did great because he is the GOAT.
You might think I dislike Jordan but I don't.
I just don't think he was doubled more then Shaq and I think it is ok if we disagree on that.
Anyone who watched both of them knows that Shaq was doubled far more often.
No one in league history came close to drawing as many double/triple teams as Prime Shaq did. Not even the GOAT (MJ).
Your energy is best spent working on some other facet of his game because you are never gonna convince people of this.

[juju151111]

Any video of Prime Shaq will show him being doubled consistently.
Go watch G2 of the 2001 Finals if you want.
Doubled on almost every possession.

Jordan was never auto-doubled over his Prime against almost every opponent the way Shaq was.



Yeah well in the 90's Jordan had Pippen and sharp shooters like Kerr, Kukoc and Paxson.
He was doubled far less then.
Go watch the 92 Finals. Portland barely doubled Jordan in that series.



The help was late. Jordan was not doubled on that play.



I watched one of the videos and it wasn't all doubles.
Yes I am sure you can find games where Jordan got heavily doubled and the same is true for Shaq (but in greater quantity).



Yes Detroit went after Jordan pretty hard.
Jordan still did great because he is the GOAT.
You might think I dislike Jordan but I don't.
I just don't think he was doubled more then Shaq and I think it is ok if we disagree on that.
Anyone who watched both of them knows that Shaq was doubled far more often.
No one in league history came close to drawing as many double/triple teams as Prime Shaq did. Not even the GOAT (MJ).
Your energy is best spent working on some other facet of his game because you are never gonna convince people of this.
How about this how many doubles and triples? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOS1qNTWb70

[andgar923]

How about this how many doubles and triples? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOS1qNTWb70

I made my own edit of this very game. I added a few possessions that were missed. Along with annotations to focus on other aspects of the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujtZZ5n4AeA&ab_channel=andgar923

[warriorfan]

Any video of Prime Shaq will show him being doubled consistently.
Go watch G2 of the 2001 Finals if you want.
Doubled on almost every possession.

Jordan was never auto-doubled over his Prime against almost every opponent the way Shaq was.



Yeah well in the 90's Jordan had Pippen and sharp shooters like Kerr, Kukoc and Paxson.
He was doubled far less then.
Go watch the 92 Finals. Portland barely doubled Jordan in that series.



The help was late. Jordan was not doubled on that play.



I watched one of the videos and it wasn't all doubles.
Yes I am sure you can find games where Jordan got heavily doubled and the same is true for Shaq (but in greater quantity).



Yes Detroit went after Jordan pretty hard.
Jordan still did great because he is the GOAT.
You might think I dislike Jordan but I don't.
I just don't think he was doubled more then Shaq and I think it is ok if we disagree on that.
Anyone who watched both of them knows that Shaq was doubled far more often.
No one in league history came close to drawing as many double/triple teams as Prime Shaq did. Not even the GOAT (MJ).
Your energy is best spent working on some other facet of his game because you are never gonna convince people of this.

For one Shaq wasn't doubled more than MJ, for two it is less desirable for your star player to draw attention towards the basket rather than away. Freeing up the paint for easy layup and dunk opportunities is the optimal approach for a successful and efficient offense. This is achieved by drawing defenders out on the perimeter, not drawing attention towards the middle and settling for jump shots due to congestion in the key.

Therefore even if Shaq was doubled as much as Jordan, which he wasn't, it would still lead to less efficient team opportunities when compared to Jordan.

[ClipperRevival]

You guys are killing me. Unless if you watched almost every game of peak MJ and Shaq, there is no way to know who was doubled more. And in the grand scheme of things, does it matter? Both had two of the best peaks ever and defenses had sleepless nights game planning against them.

However, I do believe that MJ was THE most impactful player EVER regardless of position.

[knicksman]

As a bran stan, it really is a big insult for me that hes being guarded like a role player

[dubeta]

Too bad Pippen didn't let him double-team Madonna

[SpanishACB]

I played with tons of NBA players and I'm on sports-reference.com

That should shut up your delusion that I'm a "new" fan.. I'm 38 and played against most of your "heroes"... They weren't heroes to me though - they were the guys I competed against - that's why I can dissect their games better than any other poster you've ever seen (whether you realize it or not).

You guys are the new fans that must change the facts of history to say Lebron matches MJ... for example, Dr.J4ever, sdot_thadon, and flpii spread lies in the forums by saying the 80's DID have spacing, and therefore spacing can't be used as an argument to say today's spacing makes it easier on offensive players. You guys are a bunch of ****

:biggums:

[aj1987]

3ball and warriorfan going full retard ITT.

[3ball]

I went through all the games from the 2000 Finals, when Shaq was at his uber-peak... Shaq was never doubled every possession for extended periods like MJ was - the most Shaq was ever doubled was 3 times in a row.

It never happened for longer stretches like MJ, for 2 reasons: 1) the option was always there to send Shaq to FT line - he has a zillion unearned FT's in his career... 2) For Shaq's entire career, he played with All-NBA guards and a bevy of 3-point shooters, so it was far more dangerous to double Shaq than MJ, whose 80's teams were a 1-man show with no 3-point shooters.. These are all irrefutable facts.

Even though I've already provided 3 examples where MJ is doubled every time he touches it for 10+ possessions in a row (see OP and the 2 links below), I could easily find many more.. All I have to do is look up any Bulls-Pistons playoff game from 1988-1990 - that's when MJ faced the "Jordan Rules", which were double teams every time he caught the ball!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOS1qNTWb70

[aj1987]

I went through all the games from the 2000 Finals, when Shaq was at his uber-peak...
It never happened for longer stretches like MJ, for 2 reasons: 1) the option was always there to send Shaq to FT line - he has a zillion unearned FT's in his career... 2) For Shaq's entire career, he played with All-NBA guards and a bevy of 3-point shooters, so it was far more dangerous to double Shaq than MJ, whose 80's teams were a 1-man show with no 3-point shooters.. These are all irrefutable facts.

Even though I've already provided 3 examples where MJ is doubled every time he touches it for 10+ possessions in a row (see OP and the 2 links below), I could easily find many more.. All I have to do is look up any Bulls-Pistons playoff game from 1988-1990 - that's when MJ faced the "Jordan Rules", which were double teams every time he caught the ball!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOS1qNTWb70
Unless you can provide IRREFUTABLE PROOF it's not a fact, you literal retard.

Please go to a free clinic (as you probably can't afford anything else) and get your tubes tied. Either that or take a blow torch castrate yourself.

[3ball]

Unless you can provide IRREFUTABLE PROOF it's not a fact, you literal retard.




All NBA guards Shaq played with: Kobe, Wade, Penny

Here's the bevy of 3-point shooters Shaq played with - all these guys shot over 37% with at least 4 attempts alongside Shaq: Dennis Scott, Nick Anderson, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Jason Williams, James Posey, Antoine Walker.

All of Shaq's teams that appeared in the Finals attempted at least 18 threes per game... By comparison, MJ's 80's Bulls peaked at 6.5 threes per game in 1989


https://i.imgflip.com/rudtg.gif

[warriorfan]

All NBA guards Shaq played with: Kobe, Wade, Penny

Here's the bevy of 3-point shooters Shaq played with - all these guys shot over 37% with at least 4 attempts alongside Shaq: Dennis Scott, Nick Anderson, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Jason Williams, James Posey, Antoine Walker.

All of Shaq's teams that appeared in the Finals attempted at least 18 threes per game... By comparison, MJ's 80's Bulls attempted a high of 6.5


https://i.imgflip.com/rudtg.gif

I believe that is called irrefutable proof.

[ShaqTwizzle]

I believe that is called irrefutable proof.

Not really.
He just listed the #2's Shaq played with and some average roleplayers.

Guess what?
Jordan played with Pippen and great shooting roleplayers like Kerr, Paxson and Kukoc during his contending years. Shaq wish he had that shooting.

Either way it didn't matter who you surrounded Shaq with because giving him single coverage was absolute suicide.
He'd just overpower his man and score with ease. You HAD to double team him unless you had a Robinson or something and even those teams consistently doubled him.

Go watch the 92 Finals and tell me Jordan was doubled as much as Shaq was in the early 00-02 Finals.
He wasn't and its not even close.

Shaq was doubled more then any other player in the league history.

3ball needs to stop shilling his disinfo.
Jordan wasn't the best at absolutely everything.
He didn't draw the most doubles and he didn't block the most shots.

He also keeps mentioning the Pistons matchups from the 80's like that is all the info that he needs.
Even if they did double him as much as he says it doesn't mean anything because he is ignoring how all the other teams defended him from those years and his other years when he had better casts.

If Shaq was heavily doubled by all teams throughout his Prime while Jordan was only doubled heavily by one team in the late 80's well then.... I think we have a winner.
Not saying that was the case but 3ball acts like it is.

[3ball]

He'd just overpower his man and score with ease. You HAD to double team him unless you had a Robinson or something and even those teams consistently doubled him.

Go watch the 92 Finals and tell me Jordan was doubled as much as Shaq was in the early 00-02 Finals.


You just killed the very point you're trying to make with the bolded above - the Blazers had Drexler, just like the Spurs had Robinson, so they weren't as inclined to double team, although they still did a ton.

And the point being made is that MJ was doubled in the 80's far more than Shaq ever was, because the 80's Bulls were more of a 1-man show than any of Shaq's teams, since he played with a bevy of all-nba guards his entire career (Penny, Wade, Kobe, Lebron).

80's MJ was also double-teamed far more because he didn't play with a bevy of 3-point shooters like Shaq and you couldn't just foul him to send him to the line like you could Shaq - Shaq has a zillion unearned FT's in his career.. Again, these are all irrefutable facts - the point that 80's MJ was doubled far more than Shaq, and more than any player ever (except Wilt) has been proven pretty clearly itt.
.

[aj1987]

All NBA guards Shaq played with: Kobe, Wade, Penny

Here's the bevy of 3-point shooters Shaq played with - all these guys shot over 37% with at least 4 attempts alongside Shaq: Dennis Scott, Nick Anderson, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Jason Williams, James Posey, Antoine Walker.

All of Shaq's teams that appeared in the Finals attempted at least 18 threes per game... By comparison, MJ's 80's Bulls peaked at 6.5 threes per game in 1989


https://i.imgflip.com/rudtg.gif
Shaq being doubled more than MJ is just your delusional opinion, unless you can provide IRREFUTABLE proof.

MJ should've probably commanded more defensive attention, that would've opened up space for 3's. :cheers:


You just killed the very point you're trying to make with the bolded above - the Blazers had Drexler, just like the Spurs had Robinson
.
Clyde didn't make a single All-NBA team. Robinson is a DPOY.

[ShaqTwizzle]

You just killed the very point you're trying to make with the bolded above - the Blazers had Drexler, just like the Spurs had Robinson, so they weren't as inclined to double team.


Yeah except the Spurs still doubled Shaq far more often then the Blazers doubled Jordan.
Also Robinson was a GOAT defender while Drexler... was not.


And the point being made is that MJ was doubled in the 80's far more than Shaq ever was.

Except that is not even true.
Maybe 80's Jordan VS Detroit in certain games or stretches was doubled at a level comparable to what Shaq received on average but thats about it.

In general or on average against all opponents/playoff opponents especially if you compare their contending years Shaq was doubled way more often then Jordan was.

Part of that was because Shaq was considerably more unstoppable and efficient from the field and the other part was that as a post player he was much easier to double.

These are irrefutable facts.

[3ball]

:facepalm

[3ball]

Shaq was considerably more unstoppable and efficient from the field



Comparing MJ's Peak to Shaq's Peak (91-93' vs. 00'-02')


Rebounds/Assists cancel out.. So do Steals/Blocks and FG/FT%:


REGULAR SEASON

MJ:... 31.4 ppg.. 58.2% ts.. 122 ORtg.. 0.288 WS/48.. 3 All-Defense 1st Team.. 2 MVP
Shaq: 28.6 ppg.. 58.0% ts.. 115 ORtg.. 0.264 WS/48.. 2 All-Defense 2nd Team.. 1 MVP


PLAYOFFS

MJ:... 33.7 ppg.. 57.2% ts.. 120 ORtg, 0.267 WS/48
Shaq: 29.9 ppg.. 56.2% ts.. 113 ORtg.. 0.238 WS/48


FINALS

MJ:... 36.3 ppg.. 52.6% fg.. 84.3% ft.. played. #5, #3, #9 defenses.. beat Magic-Drexler-Barkley
Shaq: 35.9 ppg.. 59.5% fg.. 50.6% ft.. played #13, #5, #1 defenses.. beat Miller-Iverson-Kidd


MJ was more dominant and more efficient - irrefutable stats.

[3ball]

Except that is not even true.
Maybe 80's Jordan VS Detroit in certain games or stretches was doubled at a level comparable to what Shaq received on average but thats about it.


I re-watched every single game from the 2000 Finals - this was Shaq's most dominant series ever and the most he was doubled was 3 times in a row.

Even though we've been arguing about this for a week now, you can't show me a single stretch where Shaq was doubled 10 times in a row - this should take 10 minutes if he was doubled more than 80's MJ - because that's all the time it would take me to find more instances of MJ, and I've already shown 3 such games for MJ itt.. So the argument stands, just based on the fact that I can easily reproduce games where MJ was doubled 10 times in a row, and you can't produce any..

And it's intuitive anyway - Shaq played with a bevy of All-NBA guards (Penny, Kobe, Wade, then Lebron) and a bevy of 3-point shooters, so it would be dumb for the other team to EVER double Shaq 10 times in a row... Also, it's easier to just foul Shaq, which occurred often...

Otoh, it was much easier to double MJ, because the 80's Bulls didn't even have any all-stars, let alone all-nba players like Shaq had, and they didn't have any 3-point shooting like Shaq's teams either... And of course you couldn't just foul Mike like you can Shaq - for all these very intuitive reasons, 80's MJ was doubled far more than Shaq ever was on his stacked, 3-point shooting teams.

Btw, MJ was more dominant that Shaq - this is easily the most irrefutable fact - just look at the previous post.. :rolleyes:
.

[ShaqTwizzle]

Do you even know what "from the field" means?
That means FG% not TS%.

For an opposing defender it doesn't matter how good you shoot FT's it just matters how good you can score from the field.

That is why Shaq was doubled more often then MJ.
He was far more unstoppable and efficient from the field.
Take away FT's and MJ isn't close to Shaq as a scorer.



Btw, MJ was more dominant that Shaq - this is easily the most irrefutable fact - just look at the previous post.. :rolleyes:

No he wasn't and your previous post doesn't prove shit.
MJ may have been a slightly better scorer Peak for Peak but offensively they are on the same level while defensively Shaq has a huge edge and is also a monster on the boards.

Peak Shaq's overall impact > Peak Jordan's
Not a big gap but a clear one imo.

[3ball]

Do you even know what "from the field" means?
That means FG% not TS%.

For an opposing defender it doesn't matter how good you shoot FT's it just matters how good you can score from the field.


Even though it's the dumbest, most beta thing in the world to remove FT shooting just so you can have a chance in the argument, I'll do it anyway, because MJ still wins.. If you insist on being a dumbass, MJ still wins using your twisted logic:


Points per 100 Possessions in Playoffs MINUS FREE THROWS MADE:


MICHAEL JORDAN: 43.3 pts - 10.6 ft's = 32.7 pts

SHAQ AS LAKER: 36.3 pts - 7.7 ft's = 28.6 pts


That feeling you have right now - that's you being ethered... Enjoy.. Happens to the best of us

Of course, why would we remove FT shooting anyway?... gtfo, ridiculous... MJ is was the better scorer and was more dominant - higher ts, higher points-per-possession, higher win shares, and of course, higher ppg..
.

[warriorfan]

Do you even know what "from the field" means?
That means FG% not TS%.

For an opposing defender it doesn't matter how good you shoot FT's it just matters how good you can score from the field.

That is why Shaq was doubled more often then MJ.
He was far more unstoppable and efficient from the field.
Take away FT's and MJ isn't close to Shaq as a scorer.



TS% is a more accurate representation of scoring efficiency when compared to FG%. MJ was the more efficient and dangerous scorer, that is why he was double teamed more often than Shaq.



No he wasn't and your previous post doesn't prove shit.
MJ may have been a slightly better scorer Peak for Peak but offensively they are on the same level while defensively Shaq has a huge edge and is also a monster on the boards.

Peak Shaq's overall impact > Peak Jordan's
Not a big gap but a clear one imo.

Peak Shaq is not better than Peak Jordan. Peak Shaq cannot give you elite offense and properly guard the pick and roll for the entire game. He is not a true two way player. Shaq couldn't step into a creater role for your offense like Michael Jordan could. Shaq's impact diminishes as the game comes to an end due to being a liability from free throw shooting. Jordan's impact increases. When the game is down to the last play, who are you inbounding the ball too, Jordan, or Shaq?

[ShaqTwizzle]

[B]Even though it's the dumbest, most beta thing in the world to remove FT shooting just so you can have a chance in the argument, I'll do it anyway, because MJ still wins.


First of all MJ does not win, LOL.
Are you ****ing kidding me?

Second of all removing FT shooting does make sense in the context of our discussion.

If you are an opposing defender who is trying to stop a guy without fouling it doesn't matter how good his FT shooting ability is it only matters how good his halfcourt offensive game is.

Peak VS Peak (scoring from the field)
--------
Shaq = 11.7 FG's made on 21.3 FG Attempts
MJ = 12.1 FG's made on 23.7 FG Attempts

Jordan = .4 more FG's made on 2.4 extra attempts.

Enjoy dat ether boy.

:kobe:

[ShaqTwizzle]

TS% is a more accurate representation of scoring efficiency when compared to FG%.


Agreed but in the context of our discussion FG% was relevant and TS% was not.


MJ was the more efficient and dangerous scorer.

But he wasn't more efficient even going by TS% and I don't think he was more dangerous.
Shaq was a more unstoppable scorer from the field which made him more consistent and more portable VS various defenses.


that is why he was double teamed more often than Shaq.

Except in reality he wasn't.



Peak Shaq is not better than Peak Jordan.

Yes he is.


Peak Shaq cannot give you elite offense and properly guard the pick and roll for the entire game.

Peak Shaq was a dominant interior defender and a DPOY level defensive anchor at the C position.
His defensive impact was far greater then Jordan's ever was.
His PnR defense was also fine at his Peak.


He is not a true two way player.

Retard alert.
Shaq was an elite defensive anchor throughout most of his Prime.


Shaq couldn't step into a creater role for your offense like Michael Jordan could.

Of course he could.
Look at the 2000 Finals where he scored nearly 40ppg and carried a team that had barely any creators outside of an injured and useless Kobe.
Look at many other series. He could create efficient offense better then anyone.


Shaq's impact diminishes as the game comes to an end due to being a liability from free throw shooting.

No it doesn't because his efficiency from the field balances it out.
Shaq led the 00-02 Laker's in 4th quarter pts scored.
Shaq has the two highest 4th quarter PPG averages in a Finals series.


When the game is down to the last play, who are you inbounding the ball too, Jordan, or Shaq?

For a last second play?
Jordan.

For an entire 4th quarter?
Could go either way.

[warriorfan]

pick and roll defense

pick and roll defense

pick and roll defense

[ShaqTwizzle]

pick n roll hurrr

What about it?
Shaq was never great at defending deep PnR plays but during his youth and Peak years he was more then capable of defending them and in the playoffs he ramped up his effort level and always did a passable job of it.

Shaq was one of the most dominant interior defenders & rim-protectors of his generation.
Him being fairly average at one minor facet of defense (deep PnR screens) didn't prevent him from being an elite defensive anchor especially at his Peak where he anchored the #1 defense in the league despite Kobe missing a ton of games and him having no other notable defenders on his team.

Peak Wilt (like Shaq) was also fairly average at perimeter defense and yet his defensive impact was also far greater then Jordan's ever was.

[3ball]

But he wasn't more efficient even going by TS% and I don't think he was more dangerous.


What the **** are you talking about??... MJ had higher TS and ORtg in the playoffs.. Also, without FT's, MJ still scored a lot more:


Points per 100 Possessions in Playoffs MINUS FREE THROWS MADE:


MICHAEL JORDAN: 43.3 pts - 10.6 ft's = 32.7 pts

SHAQ AS LAKER: 36.3 pts - 7.7 ft's = 28.6 pts


But again, why are we handicapping it for Shaq by excluding FT's?... Only because Shaq is clearly worse and doesn't have a chance comparing to MJ otherwise.

[ShaqTwizzle]

But again, why are we handicapping it for Shaq by excluding FT's?... Only because Shaq is clearly worse and doesn't have a chance comparing to MJ otherwise.

Shaq's FG% >>>>>>> Jordan's

You are literally insane if you think he wasn't a better scorer from the field.
I am done discussing that particular topic with you.

Regarding their scoring Peak VS Peak.
Jordan was arguably better but the gap is small.

Shaq : 30ppg on .562%TS
MJ : 33.6ppg on .572%TS

Let us not act like their is some gigantic gap between those stats above.
Its pretty small and honestly Shaq faced much better defenses and much better h2h defenders.
Plus he was more consistent and more portable VS varied defenses.

I think they are about equal as offensive anchors or a small edge for Jordan.
But defensively it is not even close.
Peak Shaq was a DPOY level C.
Jordan couldn't dream of matching his impact on that end.
Then we have the 13-15 boards he grabbed.

Yeah in terms of overall impact Peak Shaq > Peak Jordan

[3ball]

If you are an opposing defender who is trying to stop a guy without fouling it doesn't matter how good his FT shooting ability is it only matters how good his halfcourt offensive game is.


MJ's scoring stats are GOAT - they're far better than Shaq's, and he has FAR more big games than Shaq... MJ simply scored way more than Shaq in the halfcourt, or ANY court - you've just lost your mind by thinking otherwise.

(i.e. Jordan has thirty-eight 40-point playoff games to Shaq's 10 or whatever it is... don't make me start busting out lists of most 30 point, 40 point and 50 point playoff games - Jordan DOMINATES that list... You'll look really dumb.

you already look like an idiot saying anyone is a better scorer than MJ - the stats couldn't be clearer on this - MJ was the far more dominant scorer, which is why he required more double-teams).

[warriorfan]

he anchored the #1 defense in the league despite Kobe missing a ton of games and him having no other notable defenders on his team.


2000 Lakers were stacked with great defenders. Veteran AC Green was picking up pick and roll responsibilities for Shaq that year. Next year, AC Green goes to Miami where they secure the #2 defense in the league, meanwhile the Lakers defense dropped to #21 in Green's absence with no one to cover the pick and roll.

[ShaqTwizzle]

MJ simply scored way more than Shaq in the halfcourt, or ANY court - you've just lost your mind by thinking otherwise.

Hmm.... and yet....

00-02 Shaq = 11.7 FG's made on 21.3 FG Attempts
91-93 Mike = 12.1 FG's made on 23.7 FG Attempts

Looks like they scored about the same amount in the halfcourt except that Shaq needed 2.4 less attempts per game...

So much for Jordan scoring "way more" in the halfcourt.

Shaq was a far more efficient, consistent and unstoppable scorer from the field.
Jordan is clearly his inferior in that respect and any sane basketball fan would agree.

Now Jordan is a much better FT shooter and overall as you said he was probably the better scorer of the two.
Happy now?

[3ball]

:facepalm

[ShaqTwizzle]

2000 Lakers were stacked with great defenders.

No they weren't.
You have no idea what you're talking about.


Veteran AC Green was picking up pick and roll responsibilities for Shaq that year.


Green was 36 years old and only played 22-mpg.
He was not a great defender and Shaq played great PnR defense in 00.


meanwhile the Lakers defense dropped

That was because of chemistry issues, infighting, lack of effort by a disgruntled Shaq and other problems the team was having.

If you really think their defense fell off that hard because a 20mpg, 36 old roleplayer left the team then you're an idiot.

Not to mention that they picked up Horace Grant in 01 who was a far, far better defender then Green was.

Fukk off with that agenda fueled bullshit.
:coleman:

[3ball]

Now Jordan is a much better FT shooter and overall as you said he was probably the better scorer of the two.



Indeed, it's quite OBVIOUS that MJ scored more in the halfcourt, or ANY court:

Career PPG in regular season and playoffs:


JORDAN: 30.1 and 33.4 (#1 all time, #1 all-time)

SHAQ:.. 23.7 and 24.3 (#22 all-time, #24 all time)


This is why MJ was doubled more - because he was a much better scorer... /thread

[ShaqTwizzle]

Indeed, it's quite OBVIOUS that MJ scored more in the halfcourt.

Scored more? Probably.
Scored better? Debatable.

You use career stats but that isn't really fair since Shaq hung around longer and ruined his shit.
Jordan didn't stick around past his Prime (which is a good thing).

95-03 Shaq : 10.9 FGM on 19.5 FGA
Jordan : 12.1 FGM on 25.5 FGA

So what do we have here?
Jordan did indeed "score more" as you said but he also took many more attempts.

Jordan made 1.2 more FG's per game but also used 6 more full attempts.

So I think clearly Shaq was scoring more effectively from the field.
---
That doesn't make him the better overall scorer because obviously FT's matter a great deal but strictly from the field Shaq was considerably more efficient & consistent while making a comparable (if slightly lower) number of shots.

:cheers:

[warriorfan]

No they weren't.
You have no idea what you're talking about.



Green was 36 years old and only played 22-mpg.
He was not a great defender and Shaq played great PnR defense in 00.



That was because of chemistry issues, infighting, lack of effort by a disgruntled Shaq and other problems the team was having.

If you really think their defense fell off that hard because a 20mpg, 36 old roleplayer left the team then you're an idiot.

Not to mention that they picked up Horace Grant in 01 who was a far, far better defender then Green was.

Fukk off with that agenda fueled bullshit.
:coleman:

Horace Grant was not a good defender nor a better defender than AC Green. This gets reflected when Horace Grant replaced AC Green in the rotation and the the Laker's defense suffered greatly due to the loss of pick and roll coverage. Opposing teams knew how Shaq was vulnerable to pick and roll and exploited the advantage regularly.

[dubeta]

Scored more? Probably.
Scored better? Debatable.

You use career stats but that isn't really fair since Shaq hung around longer and ruined his shit.
Jordan didn't stick around past his Prime (which is a good thing).

95-03 Shaq : 10.9 FGM on 19.5 FGA
Jordan : 12.1 FGM on 25.5 FGA

So what do we have here?
Jordan did indeed "score more" as you said but he also took many more attempts.

Jordan made 1.2 more FG's per game but also used 6 more full attempts.

So I think clearly Shaq was scoring more effectively from the field.
---
That doesn't make him the better overall scorer because obviously FT's matter a great deal but strictly from the field Shaq was considerably more efficient & consistent while making a comparable (if slightly lower) number of shots.

:cheers:

Ether!


And 2000-2002 Shaq was FAR more unstoppable than MJ ever was

[OldSchoolBBall]

Scored more? Probably.
Scored better? Debatable.

You use career stats but that isn't really fair since Shaq hung around longer and ruined his shit.
Jordan didn't stick around past his Prime (which is a good thing).

95-03 Shaq : 10.9 FGM on 19.5 FGA
Jordan : 12.1 FGM on 25.5 FGA

So what do we have here?
Jordan did indeed "score more" as you said but he also took many more attempts.

Jordan made 1.2 more FG's per game but also used 6 more full attempts.

So I think clearly Shaq was scoring more effectively from the field.
---
That doesn't make him the better overall scorer because obviously FT's matter a great deal but strictly from the field Shaq was considerably more efficient & consistent while making a comparable (if slightly lower) number of shots.

:cheers:

What years are you using for Jordan here? Is this playoffs or RS for both players?

[ShaqTwizzle]

Horace Grant was not a good defender nor a better defender than AC Green.


#1. Grant was a great defender.
He was a guy always known for his excellent defense.
Ask any decent poster on the board and they'll confirm it for you.

#2. He was a better defender then Green who was a year away from retirement and infact did retire in 2001 playing 16-mpg for Miami before calling it quits.


This gets reflected when Horace Grant replaced AC Green in the rotation and the the Laker's defense suffered greatly due to the loss of pick and roll coverage.


That is simply not true nor what happened.
Chemistry issues are what caused the Laker's to underperform in the reg-season that year.

Once they "figured things out" by the end of the year their defense returned to its normal level.
In the playoffs they had by far the best defense in the league.
So that alone immediately disproves your theory that they needed Green for their defense to be elite or that he played any significant role in their defense being elite in 2000.

Infact their playoff defense in 2001 was considerably better then their playoff defense in 2000.

[warriorfan]

#1. Grant was a great defender.
He was a guy always known for his excellent defense.
Ask any decent poster on the board and they'll confirm it for you.

#2. He was a better defender then Green who was a year away from retirement and infact did retire in 2001 playing 16-mpg for Miami before calling it quits.



That is simply not true nor what happened.
Chemistry issues are what caused the Laker's to underperform in the reg-season that year.

Once they "figured things out" by the end of the year their defense returned to its normal level.
In the playoffs they had by far the best defense in the league.
So that alone immediately disproves your theory that they needed Green for their defense to be elite or that he played any significant role in their defense being elite in 2000.

Infact their playoff defense in 2001 was considerably better then their playoff defense in 2000.

Their chemistry change was due to the fact that they had a hole in the pick and role coverage, something that Horace Grant never excelled at.

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-10-2015/LfHlds.gif


So I think clearly Shaq was scoring more effectively from the field.



:facepalm

Why do mods let dumbs stuff like this fly?... Unlike Shaq, Jordan took shots OUTSIDE OF 5 FEET - MJ was better at converting FG's everywhere on the floor.. But once again, MJ can win this argument anyway even using your dumb, erroneous, twisted logic:

Prime MJ's paint and at-rim percentages beat Shaq's.. MJ shot 74% at the rim in 1992 (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=317950) - this is the same as Shaq's career 74% at the rim... And MJ's fg% in the entire 16 x 19 foot paint was 59%, which destroys Shaq, since he shoots 42% from 3-10 feet and 27% from 10-16 feet.. So MJ shoots the same percentage at the rim, and blows Shaq away from virtually every other distance.

I have a question for you - how does it feel to be a complete dumbass... But it's okay - you shouldn't be surprised that prime MJ was the superior shot-maker in the paint - for example, MJ and Dr. J are the only wing players in history with sufficient explosion off two feet to dunk on a massive, physically dominant center without needing any dribbles or steps (see gif above) - and he was 34 at the time of that dunk.





but strictly from the field Shaq was considerably more efficient & consistent


This was just debunked in previous response above... Again don't be surprised that prime MJ was a superior finisher in the paint - prime MJ overpowered and finished over bigs like no player in the history of the game - try to imagine Kobe, Westbrook, Lebron, Harden or Durant doing any of these moves below - THEY SIMPLY CAN'T - they don't have the full combination of athleticism necessary (including big hands):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MaYccWpdZ4
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-27-2015/zU1xdh.gif
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-01-2015/Kxoq9J.gif
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-25-2015/sKMzUP.gif


RON ARTEST:


"MJ is the toughest to guard because he's as strong as Lebron, he shoots just as good as Reggie Miller from the midrange, and he's tough... He's a killer out there on the court."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5dXZxj6Zbc&t=0m59s


MAGIC JOHNSON:


"MJ's strength is like a big man's. He's the strongest guard, I'm talking about body-wise, to ever play."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=1m52s
.

[ShaqTwizzle]

Facts are facts Mr. 3ball.

Shaq was considerably more efficient & consistent from the field on only slightly lower volume.

Here is another way of looking at it.

Shaq = 22-ppg on 19.5 FGA
MJ = 25-ppg on 25.1 FGA

Which is better?
Shaq obviously...

Give him 5.8 extra FGA at (for him) a conservative 55% rate and he scores an extra 6.16-ppg.

So.
Shaq = 28-ppg
MJ = 25-ppg

Shaq wins. :pimp:

[3ball]

Shaq was considerably more efficient & consistent from the field on only slightly lower volume.


Are you stupid - MJ shot FG's from all over the floor not just in the paint, and Shaq shot a WORSE percentage in the 16 x 19 foot paint than MJ anyway.

Shaq shot 42% from 3-10 feet for his career - MJ destroys this... Shaq shot 27% from 10-16 feet - MJ destroys this... And prime MJ shot the same 74% (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=317950) at the rim as Shaq... So MJ is the better shotmaker inside the 16 x 19 foot paint.. But I know you're too dumb to understand what I just wrote.

So prime MJ shot the same percentage at the rim as Shaq, while shooting far better everywhere else on the floor.

MJ is the superior shot maker, by far, and the stats prove it.
inb4 i have to repeat myself to this dumbass

[ShaqTwizzle]

Are you stupid

Are you?

Prime Playoff FG%
-------------------
Shaq = .560%
Jordan = .487%

Just so you know FG% represents efficiency from the field.
There is no debating the irrefutable fact that Shaq was much more dangerous and unstoppable scorer then MJ outside of the FT line.

If Jordan was more efficient from every area of the floor as you stupidly say then his FG% would be higher but it isn't and he wasn't.
Durrrrrrr.

Give Shaq the FT shooting ability of MJ and he'd be a far better overall scorer then Jordan ever was.

[dubeta]

MJ's FG% cratered as his athleticism faded, while Shaq was still 56%+ FG all the way throughout his career

[3ball]

If Jordan was more efficient from every area of the floor as you stupidly say then his FG% would be higher but it isn't and he wasn't.


No, you're just too dumb to understand that Shaq only took high percentage at-rim shots.. Otoh, MJ took the high efficiency at-rim shots too, but he ALSO took many lower efficiency shots outside of 5 feet, which lowered his overall FG%.

Again, in MJ's prime, he shot 74% at the rim just like Shaq, and destroyed Shaq everywhere else on the floor... But again, the higher proportion of lower percentage shots MJ took further from the basket made his FG% lower than Shaq's - this is statistical fact, but you're just too dumb to understand it..

Go back to school you dumb ****, so then you won't be a dumb **** anymore... It's good advice, you should take it.

[ShaqTwizzle]

No, you're just too dumb to understand that Shaq only took high percentage at-rim shots.

Translation : Shaq could consistently create high percentage shots for himself close to the basket and Jordan couldn't so Shaq was more effective and shot a higher percentage.

I mean... yeah.
Like... is Carmelo a better scorer then Kareem because his shot spread is far more diverse and he uses more moves?

Dummy.

[3ball]

I mean... yeah.
Like... is Carmelo a better scorer then Kareem because his shot spread is far more diverse and he uses more moves?



You just exposed yourself as a dumbass - you think Shaq is a better scorer than MJ???

You're far dumber than I ever imagined..

[ShaqTwizzle]

You're far dumber than I ever imagined..

Where did I say Shaq was a better scorer then MJ in that post?
Dummy...

MJ was a slightly better scorer overall but that is because not only was he very efficient from the field "for a guard" but because he was also an elite FT shooter.

Shaq was still the better scorer from the field but from the line he was considerably inferior to MJ which is why overall MJ retains the edge.

None of this is hard to understand and MJ still comes out on top you are just so arrogant and hard headed that you cant accept easily understandable commonly accepted facts.

Take away FT's from the game and yes everyone would prefer Shaq over Jordan as their teams main scorer because he is a better scorer from the field.

I am done... you can keep rambling if you want but I won't further discuss this.

[3ball]

Where did I say Shaq was a better scorer then MJ in that post?


You're analogy of Carmelo and Kareem implied it, but you're too dumb to even see that.

Go to bed kid.. You were destroyed.

MJ's a better scorer than Shaq, Kareem, Lebron, Kobe, and virtually every other player in the history of the game... That's why he was doubled more than any player ever, especially in the 80's when he was a 1-man team and had no 3-point shooters (unlike Shaq who always had all-nba guards and a bevy of 3-point shooters).

I've proven MJ was doubled the most with multiple videos and more on deck, while we've been arguing this for a week and not a SINGLE video from anyone about Shaq - just their 15-year old memory of every single possession (because that's how often MJ was doubled).
.

[Round Mound]

I think Charles should also be mentioned more regarding just MJ and Shaq. The most doubled playes ive seen where MJ, Barkley, Hakeem and Shaq. Now the player ive seen create more ilegal defenses and had more defensive rotations and making others foul out was probably Chuck.:bowdown:

[3ball]

.
SHAQ'S POST MOVES: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVxZs7dwCO8
MJ'S POST MOVES: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfSftZvpHJg


The Shaq video shows him being doubled 33 of 62 times he caught the ball on the post (53%) compared to 52 of 103 in the MJ video (50%).

^^^ This is for all those who think Shaq was doubled WAAAY more than MJ - you're wrong.. They were doubled about the same on the post - this means MJ was doubled more overall, since he was doubled all over the court.

MJ's danger from anywhere on the court resulted in teams often doubling him 10+ possessions in a row, as various videos in the OP showed.. This type of every-possession double teams for 10 consecutive possessions never happened for Shaq, not even in the 2000 Finals.

[Smoke117]

.
SHAQ'S POST MOVES: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVxZs7dwCO8
MJ'S POST MOVES: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfSftZvpHJg


The Shaq video shows him being doubled 33 of 62 times he caught the ball on the post (53%) compared to 52 of 103 in the MJ video (50%).

^^^ This is for all those who think Shaq was doubled WAAAY more than MJ - you're wrong.. They were doubled about the same on the post - this means MJ was doubled more overall, since he was doubled all over the court.

MJ's danger from anywhere on the court resulted in teams often doubling him 10+ possessions in a row, as various videos in the OP showed.. This type of every-possession double teams for 10 consecutive possessions never happened for Shaq, not even in the 2000 Finals.

You realize nobody gives a flying **** about this bullshit, but you right? Write it in your journal and shut the hell up.

[ShawkFactory]

You realize nobody gives a flying **** about this bullshit, but you right? Write in in your journal and shut the hell up.
:applause:

[aj1987]

You realize nobody gives a flying **** about this bullshit, but you right? Write in in your journal and shut the hell up.
The dude deleted his post and reposted the same shit to bump up the thread as he always does. I'm pretty sure that he sent a PM to ShaqTwizzle as well. Talk about pathetic.

[knicksman]

You realize nobody gives a flying **** about this bullshit, but you right? Write it in your journal and shut the hell up.

Then you dont know shit about this game coz thats what separates a 6/6 to 2/6

[FKAri]

Did mods at the "besides Wilt" qualifier in the thread title? I could've sworn it wasn't there before.

[3ball]

.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgFWyLRNsGk

The youtube channel "Nobody Touches Jordan" did a video of Payton guarding MJ in Game 4 of 1996 Finals (link above) - MJ was doubled exactly 10 of the 20 times he caught the ball with Payton guarding - all 10 double-teams are shown here:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-23-2015/tEZzVL.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-23-2015/u_VLzF.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-23-2015/I9HNOC.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-23-2015/NpOtW3.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-23-2015/_8DMGr.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-23-2015/19zUGW.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-23-2015/rE_8J7.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-23-2015/EH39bA.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-23-2015/sK1KEQ.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-23-2015/GdCC40.gif


By comparison, Lebron was doubled-teamed a TOTAL of 18 times in the entire Finals... Think about that for a second.. Still impressed with his 36 ppg on 39%?


"Curry’s ability to guard one-on-one allowed the Warriors’ wing defenders to double-team LeBron James effectively. When James was double-teamed, the Cavaliers scored 5 points on 2-of-18 shooting (11 percent)".

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106718/iguodala-heads-all-playoff-defensive-team
.

[choppermagic]

I say Shaq also.

And Shaq probably has the record for most triple teams too.

[NZStreetBaller]

Rumor has it jordan once crossed over a spider and broke all his ankles

[3ball]

Shaq wasn't doubled more than MJ.

[3ball]

:confusedshrug:

[3ball]

I say Shaq also.

And Shaq probably has the record for most triple teams too.


That sounds nice, but it isn't true - MJ was doubled all over the court, not just on the post - but even on the post, MJ was double-teamed equally:


SHAQ'S POST MOVES: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVxZs7dwCO8
MJ'S POST MOVES: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfSftZvpHJg


The Shaq video shows him being doubled 33 of 62 times he caught the ball on the post (53%) compared to 52 of 103 in the MJ video (50%).

However, MJ got doubled all over the court, not just on the post - MJ's danger from anywhere on the court resulted in teams often doubling him 10+ possessions in a row, as various videos in the OP showed.. This type of every-possession double teams for 10 consecutive possessions never happened for Shaq, not even in the 2000 Finals.

[3ball]

Here's the New York Times on Jordan, 1987:



"Last season, Jordan had to overcome the harrassment of zone traps and double-triple teaming to average 37.1 points a game."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s9_GKFNL9E&t=0m49s


What more proof does anyone need that MJ was the most double-teamed player of all time?

As the previous post showed - we have extensive footage of each player's post-ups and they show that MJ was double-teamed on the post as much as Shaq - but unlike Shaq, he was doubled everywhere else on the court too - this is why he was frequently doubled 10+ times in a row, as shown in the OP, while Shaq never was..
.

[oarabbus]

It's true, MJ was the most doubled player of all time except Wilt. It's a testament to how poor the talent was in the weak ass fuc.k era that he played in, where defensive schemes were terrible, and players were unable to shoot 3s. It was even worse in Wilt's era.

[3ball]

It's true, MJ was the most doubled player of all time except Wilt. It's a testament to how poor the talent was in the weak ass fuc.k era that he played in, where defensive schemes were terrible, and players were unable to shoot 3s. It was even worse in Wilt's era.


Wade and Westbrook are inferior versions of MJ, yet they were scoring champs in 2009 and 2015 with a worse 3-point shot and far worse mid-range shot than MJ..

Nor could they double-pump with ease from the FT line (http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-03-2015/64Ba72.gif) like MJ.. And let's compare the defenses they faced:

PREVIOUS ERA: paint-camping... no-spacing... hand-checking
TODAY'S ERA:..... shading.......... spacing.. ..no hand-checking

[3ball]

today's defender can't sag off 3-point shooters as much as previous eras could



http://lookingforamerica.us/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Nba-Basketball-Court-Dimensions-300x300.jpg


In today's game, if a defender's man is behind the 3-point line (with or without the ball), the defender can sag off an unlimited amount, even all the way to the baseline, BUT ONLY IF the paint doesn't get in the way.

Unfortunately, as the diagram shows, almost nowhere on the 3-point arc can a defender sag off and not eventually meet the paint - in these instances, the defender only has 3 seconds in the paint, which is the same as previous eras, who were also allowed to sag into the paint for 3 seconds.

However, defenders in previous eras had an advantage specifically when sagging off corner/sideline 3-point shooters - they were allowed to paint-camp "with no time limits" in the "outside" lane, which is the outer partition running up the sides of the paint, shown above.. Today's defenders can't do this - they have 3 seconds in the "outside" lane, just like they do in the inside lane.. Given this disadvantage in sagging off on corner/sideline 3-point shooters, today's defender has less freedom in sagging off shooters than previous eras.

[WayOfWade]

Speaking of which, where's Pauk's video?