How is George Mikan not top 10 if Bill Russell is?

[Akrazotile]

Mikan won 7 'chips as the man. Thats more than MJ.

Bill Russell was basically DeAndre Jordan in the 60s. Mikan was more skilled offensively and probably didnt have stacked teams like Russell did. They both played in an era were there was like 8 teams, and little complete footage to go back and study.

Mikan fits literally the EXACT criteria people use to put Russell in the top 10, even top 5. Vast majority of these people never saw either play.

Is this just sheep gonna sheep or is there some justification for this that I'm missing?

[LoneyROY7]

Just a big white dude dominating smaller white dudes.

[CavaliersFTW]

I think his resume really is potentially top 5.

Wilt - set/holds MDE bar
Russell - set/holds GWE bar

Kareem GOAT tier blend of MDE/GWE
MJ - GOAT tier blend of MDE/GWE
...Mikan? GOAT tier blend of MDE/GWE blend

Mikan won like 7 world championships in a 9 year stretch and was flat out Shaq-like in in-game dominance against his peers. Zero answers for him. So he was physically dominant, and a winner. Top 5 level in the same class of dominance and winning combo as MJ and Kareem and greater than that of Shaq, Duncan, LeBron to this point, etc. He'd have a shit ton more awards had they existed in his era, such as MVP's, he'd no doubt have at many MVP's and FMVP's to go along with those titles.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

See, I know the weak era is nonsense at times, (against wilt and Russell)

But in the 40s...

[dhsilv]

5 NBA titles and 2 BBA titles (I honestly don't know what the BBA is?)

439 regular season games between BOTH leagues.

I'm not 100% Russell should be top 5, but he at least played over 900 nba games.

[dhsilv]

See, I know the weak era is nonsense at times, (against wilt and Russell)

But in the 40s...

He retired the year before Russell started, it all changed in a year? Actually to be honest at the speed the game was likely changing that might be true, but just had to point that out :)

[Naero]

George Mikan is underrated by modernists, as he pioneered the historical lineage of dominant big-men. Due to interspersing his career with only 9 years of NBA time, however, his longevity did suffer, and many do not even bother to ingest information from the past iterations of the NBA league.

That being said, underratedness shouldn't be hyperbolized to the point of swinging to the other end of the extreme. To lump him together with DeAndre Jordan is to completely underplay all the tangibles he brought to the table.

He wasn't just a defensive legend and anchor of the 11 championship Celtics team; he also won it while also juggling the task of coaching for two of them

[feyki]

Fifth all time ; after Wilt , before Bird .

[AnaheimLakers24]

All those losers form the 60s and before would be asking me for my change on the freeway in this era

russel is a joke

[sdot_thadon]

Man times changes everything, I remember Mikan still getting respect and mention in these type of conversations as a kid. It sucks because his era was basically basketballs stone age, undocumented, not many alive that can tell the stories now. As time passes eventually this may happen to any era not documented enough.

[Thorpesaurous]

This is a fair point and one I've considered myself many times, but the truth is is that as much as people claim the game looks nothing like the game Russell played, the truth is is that if you watch Mikan's game footage, Russell's game footage, and current game footage, Russell's game footage and todays look nearly the same compared to the Mikan stuff. It's just too hard to interpolate. Russell really was the start of modern basketball. And there are other guys who are underrated because they span that stretch, including Bob Cousey and Bob Petitte.

[stalkerforlife]

Because he's white.

We've been black balled.

[Asukal]

You could make a case for him over loser Wilt. :bowdown: :applause:

[Pointguard]

Marques Haynes would have to be up for GOAT then. He beat those Mikan's Lakers twice while playing with a team that barely played professional/competitive games. And Haynes was the most influential player ever with his dribble and he was the first international star.

Mikan was blacklisted because he spoke very highly of Wilt in comparison to Russell. Something like Wilt would stuff Russell in the basket every time if they call the game fair. That was something you just didn't do at that time. Russell was anointed. Mikan went from being the greatest player in the sport into anonymity after that statement.

[GimmeThat]

not saying he isn't.

but this has got a lot to do with the fact that NBA players doesn't get a part of the profit from the league revenue as a whole. instead, independent contracts with teams based off of their own performance etc.

imagine the benefit that has with players for just an extended year of stay of playing, not just for their legacy, but financially as well.

but then, they'll always be fighting against the rookies for a spot anyways.


if you told the players that if the league ends not being profitable, they would have their paycheck being deducted as well, I wonder what they would say.

[kshutts1]

Surprised no one has mentioned the shot clock yet.

Mikan played pre-shot clock. He's one of the very, very few players that should be in everyone's top 5 in terms of creating what the game is today. But there's no denying that the shot clock was the single largest change to the way basketball is been played, ever. And Mikan didn't play with the shot clock.

That said, what he accomplished is astounding. I read somewhere, wish I remembered the source, that Mikan's team won the title every single year that Mikan was healthy. :applause:

He deserves everyone's respect for what he accomplished as an individual and as a player; there are training regimens still in place today that Mikan started, not to mention rules that were changed because of him.

And the history of the game should have a few names attached to it, whenever it's discussed...

Naismith
Mikan
Jordan
Doc
Wilt
Pollack
Stern

...and probably quite a few individuals whose names I've forgotten, or never heard. All of those people are responsible for more than just playing the game, but for furthering the game, for helping to create what we see today.

[HurricaneKid]

Surprised no one has mentioned the shot clock yet.

Mikan played pre-shot clock. He's one of the very, very few players that should be in everyone's top 5 in terms of creating what the game is today. But there's no denying that the shot clock was the single largest change to the way basketball is been played, ever. And Mikan didn't play with the shot clock.

That said, what he accomplished is astounding. I read somewhere, wish I remembered the source, that Mikan's team won the title every single year that Mikan was healthy. :applause:

He deserves everyone's respect for what he accomplished as an individual and as a player; there are training regimens still in place today that Mikan started, not to mention rules that were changed because of him.

And the history of the game should have a few names attached to it, whenever it's discussed...

Naismith
Mikan
Jordan
Doc
Wilt
Pollack
Stern

...and probably quite a few individuals whose names I've forgotten, or never heard. All of those people are responsible for more than just playing the game, but for furthering the game, for helping to create what we see today.

Pollack?

Thats a weird inclusion. No Bird/Magic but including a stats guy?

All you can do is compare players to the rest of their peers. And for that, Mikan was an all time great. The reason he isn't listed on every top 10 list is because the game looked so different back then.

[Rake2204]

I actually find this to be an interesting thread. I've never been one to believe individual greatness was most readily defined by team championships, but for those who do believe as such, the re-introduction of George Mikan seems to raise some interesting points.

For instance, if Mikan is penalized for being pre-shot clock or from an era that played a different type of game, where does it end? It seems most previous eras feature circumstances that vary greatly from the present game.

[ArbitraryWater]

I actually find this to be an interesting thread. I've never been one to believe individual greatness was most readily defined by team championships, but for those who do believe as such, the re-introduction of George Mikan seems to raise some interesting points.

For instance, if Mikan is penalized for being pre-shot clock or from an era that played a different type of game, where does it end? It seems most previous eras feature circumstances that vary greatly from the present game.

Based on playing in a time where the majority of other professional players had other jobs as well and basketball was just an activity done on the side.

Based on playing in an era that wasn't fully integrated yet (80+% whites), but most importantly, he didn't survive the SHOT CLOCK ERA. Once the shot clock was introduced, Mikan's play fell off to mediocrity, leading to his retirement.

I generally like to the "players dominance against their OWN era"; but in the case of the 1950's you cannot overlook the obvious lack of skill.

Mikan just fell apart when the league introduced the shot clock and especially when players equal his size, strength started to play in the NBA.

Mikan played against short white guys (literally), and had a set shot.

His dominance was gone, and he retired at age of 31, couldn't hang with Russell/Wilt/Pettit.

[senelcoolidge]

Mikan was blacklisted because he spoke very highly of Wilt in comparison to Russell. Something like Wilt would stuff Russell in the basket every time if they call the game fair. That was something you just didn't do at that time. Russell was anointed. Mikan went from being the greatest player in the sport into anonymity after that statement.

Interesting. Do you have a source? If this is true I wouldn't doubt it. Russell is the anointed one and Wilt is hated in the media back than and to this day. Russell was a great player especially defensively and his leadership, but I could not put him top 10. Mikan was a great player, but because he was pre-shot clock I have some reservations. I think he was highly skilled, that can't be argued. Rules have changed, look at today's game with no carry rules and otherwise.

[Dbrog]

Mikan won 7 'chips as the man. Thats more than MJ.

Bill Russell was basically DeAndre Jordan in the 60s. Mikan was more skilled offensively and probably didnt have stacked teams like Russell did. They both played in an era were there was like 8 teams, and little complete footage to go back and study.

Mikan fits literally the EXACT criteria people use to put Russell in the top 10, even top 5. Vast majority of these people never saw either play.

Is this just sheep gonna sheep or is there some justification for this that I'm missing?

DeAndre WISHES he could run the floor, pass, play defense and post up like Russell. Russell is closer to the style of Duncan tbh minus the bank shot.

As for Mikan, I personally don't rank him cause I've never taken the time to truly learn about him. It also doesn't help that there are no full games of him playing (as far as I know).

Edit: Also Pettit is extremely difficult for me to rank. He's the only dude other than Wilt to ever beat Russell :eek:

[jlip]

Mikan won 7 'chips as the man. Thats more than MJ.

Bill Russell was basically DeAndre Jordan in the 60s. Mikan was more skilled offensively and probably didnt have stacked teams like Russell did. They both played in an era were there was like 8 teams, and little complete footage to go back and study.

Mikan fits literally the EXACT criteria people use to put Russell in the top 10, even top 5. Vast majority of these people never saw either play.

Is this just sheep gonna sheep or is there some justification for this that I'm missing?

Stopped reading after that foolishness.

[RidonKs]

[QUOTE=Naero]George Mikan is underrated by modernists, as he pioneered the historical lineage of dominant big-men. Due to interspersing his career with only 9 years of NBA time, however, his longevity did suffer, and many do not even bother to ingest information from the past iterations of the NBA league.

That being said, underratedness shouldn't be hyperbolized to the point of swinging to the other end of the extreme. To lump him together with DeAndre Jordan is to completely underplay all the tangibles he brought to the table.

He wasn't just a defensive legend and anchor of the 11 championship Celtics team; he also won it while also juggling the task of coaching for two of them

[AlphaWolf24]

all I know is Basketball doesn't really count in the 50' , 60's , 70's...( prolly even throw out 80 - 83' )

Kobe is 2nd alltime ....f@ck outta here with all this Wilt , Russell ...Mikan BS

[Dbrog]

all I know is Basketball doesn't really count in the 50' , 60's , 70's...( prolly even throw out 80 - 83' )

Kobe is 2nd alltime ....f@ck outta here with all this Wilt , Russell ...Mikan BS

So no Kareem too then AND some good Magic years. Dude you just got rid of like...more than half of NBA history. How convenient :rolleyes:

[Vaniiiia]

So no Kareem too then AND some good Magic years. Dude you just got rid of like...more than half of NBA history. How convenient :rolleyes:
And yet Kobe STILL isn't top 5. :oldlol:

MJ
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan
LeBron

No Kobe in sight! :roll:

[Jailblazers7]

Didn't have a major rival that remained relevant in basketball history. That era is pretty much entirely forgotten besides Mikan. Not really that hard to understand why people tend to ignore him too.

[dh144498]

Mikan won 7 'chips as the man. Thats more than MJ.

Bill Russell was basically DeAndre Jordan in the 60s. Mikan was more skilled offensively and probably didnt have stacked teams like Russell did. They both played in an era were there was like 8 teams, and little complete footage to go back and study.

Mikan fits literally the EXACT criteria people use to put Russell in the top 10, even top 5. Vast majority of these people never saw either play.

Is this just sheep gonna sheep or is there some justification for this that I'm missing?


:lol
:roll:
:roll:
:lol
:oldlol:

[CavaliersFTW]

Didn't have a major rival that remained relevant in basketball history. That era is pretty much entirely forgotten besides Mikan. Not really that hard to understand why people tend to ignore him too.
That era and every era since are not forgotten because nobody played back then or it wasn't relevent. They are forgotten because the NBA has, and will always have a policy where the history of the game is only told so far back.

During the last lockout for example, NBAtv was ordered to only play content from 1992 to the present.

They cater to their audiences for profit. Not for education on the history of the game. So they only show what 20-30 somethings (typical age of fans) are interested in watching. If you look at 1980's content, they used to make a lot of NBA history documentaries on the 1950's and 60's. Now they don't anymore. It's not because that era suddenly doesn't matter, it's because the goal posts are just constantly moving forward as time goes by. To the present day, the 1990's is now what the 1960's was to the 1980's. In 20 years, nobody will give a **** about 1990's basketball except for really old people who will wonder why social media and television no longer plays, mentions, or shows anything from the 1990's. It's because it won't be profitable. Kids will interpret that as not important or relevant though. Just like you are doing.

[Richesly]

From the late '40s to early '60s, being honest, Pettit was the best center out of himself, Mikan, and Russell.

Pettit had scrubs surrounding him and led his team to intervene Celtic's dynasty.

Mikan was the prototype of the first elite center. But the thing is, he isn't one of the greatest.

[CavaliersFTW]

From the late '40s to early '60s, being honest, Pettit was the best center out of himself, Mikan, and Russell.

Pettit had scrubs surrounding him and led his team to intervene Celtic's dynasty.

Mikan was the prototype of the first elite center. But the thing is, he isn't one of the greatest.
Pettit was not a career center in the NBA. If you've ever thought that, you're mistaken. Pettit even explains in detail in a few interviews how he became a forward in the NBA, how it was immediate - and who the centers were on his teams.

Charlie Share, Clyde Lovellette, and Zelmo Beatty.

None of them were ever forwards, and when they were on the floor Pettit was not a center. Pettit had the flexibility to play center, in the same way Dirk does. But Pettit played forward, from my understanding the same way and frequency Dirk plays forward throughout his career.

[dhsilv]

Just to add a bit of color, but mikan is one of the most influential players, but best...he's a dead ball baseball player. I have no idea what to do with that, but great? Oh he's great!

[Richesly]

Pettit was not a career center in the NBA. If you've ever thought that, you're mistaken. Pettit even explains in detail in a few interviews how he became a forward in the NBA, how it was immediate - and who the centers were on his teams.

Charlie Share, Clyde Lovellette, and Zelmo Beatty.

None of them were ever forwards, and when they were on the floor Pettit was not a center. Pettit had the flexibility to play center, in the same way Dirk does. But Pettit played forward, from my understanding the same way and frequency Dirk plays forward throughout his career.

Pettit played center against Russell, so I'm just using that.

[bizil]

What hurt Mikan in the long term was his overall career numbers and longevity. He only played seven years in the NBA. And the league was only in its infancy. As time went on for centers, u simply had too many guys that came along. Russell won FAR MORE RINGS than Mikan. And in general Russ's game would translate more to today's game. GOAT status factors solo accolades, team accolades, numbers, peak value, longevity being great, and overall impact. If Mikan had more dominant career numbers, then he would have been rated much higher.

[kshutts1]

Pollack?

Thats a weird inclusion. No Bird/Magic but including a stats guy?

All you can do is compare players to the rest of their peers. And for that, Mikan was an all time great. The reason he isn't listed on every top 10 list is because the game looked so different back then.
I was attempting to make a "mount rushmore" of pioneers, essentially. Magic helped bring us Showtime, so maybe he should be included. But not Bird. Bird was phenomenal, a top tier talent, but not necessarily a pioneer.

[jbryan1984]

I can actually remember hearing about Mikan as a kid from my friends grandfather. It got brought up from us collecting cards and he said he had a Mikan rookie card when he was younger and how much it would be worth if he had it today but nobody thought to keep it back then. Truth be told, I knew about Mikan before I knew who Bill Russell was. Its so hard to compare eras for any competitive sport. The game has evolved so much since 1948. So many rule changes, medical and enhancement improvements, etc.

[Pointguard]

Interesting. Do you have a source? If this is true I wouldn't doubt it. Russell is the anointed one and Wilt is hated in the media back than and to this day. Russell was a great player especially defensively and his leadership, but I could not put him top 10. Mikan was a great player, but because he was pre-shot clock I have some reservations. I think he was highly skilled, that can't be argued. Rules have changed, look at today's game with no carry rules and otherwise.
Hey Senelcoolidge, I don't have a source other than historically he was trumped up before the statement and wasn't afterwards. Lazeruss might remember the quote.

[senelcoolidge]

Hey Senelcoolidge, I don't have a source other than historically he was trumped up before the statement and wasn't afterwards. Lazeruss might remember the quote.

Thanks. I haven't seen Laz around these boards in days. I hope he can give us some insight.

[feyki]

Pettit played center against Russell, so I'm just using that.
But you are wrong brother. Pettit perfect fit to be power forward. Centesr are the center in the game. Pettit mobile player like Dirk.