If MJ couldn't handle Magic... [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

3ball

09-26-2015, 05:05 PM

LeBron was at his lightest since 2010 and still 255 - 260 pounds.

Lebron's Barkely-like weight would prevent him from being nimble enough to guard MJ's off-ball game... If light-footed DPOY Michael Cooper isn't quick enough to handle MJ's off-ball game (see below), it would be IMMEDIATELY evident that Lebron's big ass can't run around and guard MJ:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-16-2015/NlRpyo.gif

Here's more (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11297486&postcount=42) of MJ's off-ball game being too much for Cooper.. Even though Michael Cooper had the perfect type of quick, nimble athleticism to keep up with MJ's off-ball game, MJ still averaged 35/8/8 on 45% (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88) heads-up against Cooper.

Considering how heavy, lumbering and slow Lebron is in comparison to Cooper, any coach would take Lebron off MJ pretty quickly.. Lebron has never guarded a player like MJ that ran off-ball like Reggie Miller, but was super-athletic like lightning in a bottle when he caught the ball.. No coach would want to see the lumbering Lebron expend so much energy guarding MJ.. It's a mismatch.
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Sarcastic

09-26-2015, 05:23 PM

Magic > Lebron
:confusedshrug:

Asukal

09-26-2015, 05:51 PM

If MJ beat Magic in the finals...

He'd easily beat leflop in any series. :rolleyes:

Smoke117

09-26-2015, 06:01 PM

3ball comparing defending Magic to Lebron...James has about 30-40 lbs on Magic.

catch24

09-26-2015, 06:09 PM

With equal supporting casts, there's no way Jordan could consistently guard LeBron and shut him down. LeBron would either find the open man, or bully MJ in the post.

Obviously there would be possessions where MJ makes LeBron look silly, but for the most part? Phil puts Scottie on Bron.

Beastmode88

09-26-2015, 06:12 PM

ballin just got destroyed by 3ball.. :roll:

DavisIsMyUniBro

09-26-2015, 06:15 PM

Ill never understand these arguements.

Does Lebron feasibly have every advantage on Jordan in a one on one situation? yes.

does it play out like that in real life? no.

Now, dont get me wrong. I put peak Lebron comfortably at the top 5 peaks all time. (I have him in tier one with MJ and Shaq)

but even in his legendary 09 season, he was never a good iso player.

His strengths involve his ability to dominate through other ways. such as involving his teammates, etc.
isolation players arent one of them.

but in reality, this year (which is what im assuming we are arguing, since we didnt specify)

he was below league average in post ups, and very good,but not spectacular, at isolations.

not saying one way or the other, but just some ya know.

SHAQisGOAT

09-26-2015, 06:30 PM

Let me "remind" you that that was mostly in the post (as it happened when Mike tried to guard Bird). Sure, LeBron's a 6'8, 250 lbs, athletic freak but Magic was also 6'8, over 220 lbs, a good overall athlete AND - the most important thing here - LeBron can't really begin to **** with Magic's post-game or soft-touch from close-range... Johnson could "take advantage" of his height/strength/size, on the basketball court (mainly in the post), more than James ever could, that's why he gave Jordan (and many others) fits and that's why Pippen was a better match for him.

Get your shit together please, or do I need to start posting videos/gifs?

3ball

09-26-2015, 06:35 PM

Does Lebron feasibly have every advantage on Jordan in a one on one situation? yes.

MJ has a significant quickness advantage and is a far better 1-on-1 player just in general.

MJ is also the far better shooter.. Lebron can't shoot - the stats couldn't be clearer on this.. What a joke your post is

Now, dont get me wrong. I put peak Lebron comfortably at the top 5 peaks all time. (I have him in tier one with MJ and Shaq)

You're only using the "tiers" verbage so you can put Lebron on MJ's level, but the reality is that Lebron's peak is inferior to MJ's statistically and accolade-wise..

So your "tiers" verbage wreaks of desperation - but hey, it's a free country - so keep being delusional and thinking that inferior stats and accolades means he's equal.. :rolleyes:

His strengths involve his ability to dominate through other ways. such as involving his teammates, etc.

Indeed, Lebron increases the assisted rate of his teammates - this is true - however, he lowers the APG and assist % of his teammates - this is statistical fact (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841), and it proves he turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers.. :confusedshrug:

he was below league average in post ups, and very good,but not spectacular, at isolations.

False... Lebron's isolation FG% was 40% in regular season (115th out of 315), and 33% in the playoffs (35th out of 39)...

His isolation PPP was 0.93 (104th out of 315) and 0.70 in the playoffs (35th out of 39)... So Lebron was below-average at post-ups AND isolations..... and of course midrange too.

The only area where you can say he's elite is primary ballhandler (screen-roll/drive-and-kick)... This is unfortunate, since his below-average ability on post-ups, isolations and midrange preclude him from being as good in the 80's, when those were the only options remaining in the absence of 3-pointers needed to make drive-and-kick a mathematically viable option.. :confusedshrug:
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sdot_thadon

09-26-2015, 07:00 PM

It honestly depends on which season Lebron we're talking about. This year's lebron, sure Mj could do a decent job on him with good team defense around him. If you're talking 12 or 13 lebron on the heat where he finally realized he was bigger than everyone and regularly used his size? Not so much. On the perimeter he'll hold his own as well as most good defenders do. He'll get the stop and he'll get beat. The times it goes down to the block, rag doll action. The only issue is how often he'd get the notion to play big, which was pretty erratic.

GIF REACTION

09-26-2015, 07:03 PM

Lebron has 40-60 pounds on MJ, and is actually more athletic at the same time

Pretty much sums it up

DavisIsMyUniBro

09-26-2015, 07:06 PM

MJ has a significant quickness advantage and is a far better 1-on-1 player just in general.

MJ is also the far better shooter.. Lebron can't shoot - the stats couldn't be clearer on this.. What a joke your post is

You're only using the "tiers" verbage so you can put Lebron on MJ's level, but the reality is that Lebron's peak is inferior to MJ's statistically and accolade-wise..

So your "tiers" verbage wreaks of desperation - but hey, it's a free country - so keep being delusional and thinking that inferior stats and accolades means he's equal.. :rolleyes:

Indeed, Lebron increases the assisted rate of his teammates - this is true - however, he lowers the APG and assist % of his teammates - this is statistical fact (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841), and it proves he turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers.. :confusedshrug:

False... Lebron's isolation FG% was 40% in regular season (115th out of 315), and 33% in the playoffs (35th out of 39)...

His isolation PPP was 0.93 (104th out of 315) and 0.70 in the playoffs (35th out of 39)... So Lebron was below-average at post-ups AND isolations..... and of course midrange too.

The only area where you can say he's elite is primary ballhandler (screen-roll/drive-and-kick)... This is unfortunate, since his below-average ability on post-ups, isolations and midrange preclude him from being as good in the 80's, when those were the only options remaining in the absence of 3-pointers needed to make drive-and-kick a mathematically viable option.. :confusedshrug:
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points per possession...

and btw, in terms of being 104th of 315th and that kind of stuff, we have to take into account other things, such as those people who did it once and have got a 2.00 ppp rating.

as for you biased tiers arguement...

I have Lebron at the bottom of that tier.

as for that playmakers to play finishers...

How is that relevent? the fact is, when is is on the court, there is a noticeable impact, and he is probably the greatest of all time in terms of making bad teams good.

To be frank, I dont know what kind of agenda you have against Lebron. I openly rooted against him in the finals, and I have been a kobe fan all my life. but seriously. this is ridiculous.

as for my post being a joke, it just shows your insecurity tbh. no one here considers lebron to be above MJ all time. the only reason you post here instead of places like realgm is because you know your candy ass will be refuted in every damn way possible.

3ball

09-26-2015, 07:07 PM

3ball comparing defending Magic to Lebron... Lebron is 20-30 pounds heavier.

Lebron can't post worth a lick compared to Magic... or MJ.

Lebron has NEVER exploited a smaller player by posting up and having a big game by posting up.. It's never happened because he has no post game and isn't a post player - he's a ball-dominator that gets literally 75% of his offense from screen-roll, isolations, or transition..

The 75% figure is statistical fact (just like his 8.6% post-up rate).
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GIF REACTION

09-26-2015, 07:09 PM

Except when he shut down the quickest player in NBA history, prime Derrick Rose

3ball

09-26-2015, 07:10 PM

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-16-2015/R29T3G.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-26-2015/6EzAXc.gif

James has about 30-40 lbs on Magic.

Exactly - Lebron's heavy weight would prevent him from being nimble enough to guard MJ's off-ball game and catch-and-go game - Lebron's Karl Malone-like physique isn't ideal for defending quick, high-motor off-ball players or catch-and-go players..

When has Lebron ever guarded the type of offense shown above (running off-ball like Reggie Miller, but done by a super-athlete who slashes to the rim)??.. Never - he's never had to guard a player like that.. As you can see, even dpoy players (Cooper and Rodman) who have OPTIMAL physiques for guarding quick, catch-and-go players can't keep up with MJ.

It would be IMMEDIATELY evident that Lebron's big ass can't run around and guard MJ.. It would look like a mismatch from the outset - no coach would sap Lebron's energy by having him guard MJ... JR Smith would get the nod, or Wade, or Larry Hughes in 2007 Cleveland.. It's better those guys get dropped off than Lebron.

90sgoat

09-26-2015, 07:13 PM

One thing is for sure, Lebron would get torched trying to guard MJ. Lebron couldn't even guard Kawhi lol.

GIF REACTION

09-26-2015, 07:14 PM

Rose was 1/15 (6.66%) from the field with LeBron guarding him in G4/G5 in 2011

sdot_thadon

09-26-2015, 07:17 PM

One thing is for sure, Lebron would get torched trying to guard MJ. Lebron couldn't even guard Kawhi lol.
Was he even guarding him?

DavisIsMyUniBro

09-26-2015, 07:27 PM

Lebron can't post worth a lick compared to Magic... or MJ.

Lebron has NEVER exploited a smaller player by posting up and having a big game by posting up.. It's never happened because he has no post game and isn't a post player - he's a ball-dominator that gets literally 75% of his offense from screen-roll, isolations, or transition..

The 75% figure is statistical fact (just like his 8.6% post-up rate).
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Ill never understand the obsession with assist rates, etc.

it works.

btw, for your isolation arguement.

we dont actually have stats of MJ's isolation.

You actually pointed something out. PHILA counted spot ups as isolations... sooooooo yeah.

the thing about that post up rate, is that the way you are talking, this is streetball rules.

and well, heres the difference. 60 pounds. and I will laugh if you post the barea gif. because you and I both know how that would work out now/in a real one on one

DonDadda59

09-26-2015, 07:40 PM

35 year old Jordan being guarded by the 6'7" 270 lbs Anthony Mason (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJO8yQ7Xxaw)

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-22318-Michael-Jordan-ball-fake-gif-SvYu.gif

Meanwhile PRIME LeBron could barely shoot over 30% against the 6'6" 220 lbs Andre Igoudala. My mistake... Finals MVP Andre Igoudala.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.mandatory.com/media/2013/02/michael-jordan-laughing.gif

3ball

09-26-2015, 07:43 PM

and btw, in terms of being 104th of 315th and that kind of stuff, we have to take into account other things, such as those people who did it once and have got a 2.00 ppp rating.

The 100+ guys that are ahead of Lebron in post-ups, isolations and midrange includes almost every single good/star player there is.. :confusedshrug: ... 100+ guys is a super-ton.

The only area where Lebron is elite is primary ballhandler (screen-roll/drive-and-kick)... This is unfortunate, since his below-average ability on post-ups, isolations and midrange preclude him from being as good in the 80's, when those were the only options remaining in the absence of 3-pointers needed to make drive-and-kick a mathematically viable option..

as for that playmakers to play finishers... How is that relevent?

By turning his teammates from playmakers into play-finishers, Lebron prevents his team from running an equal-opportunity offense, where all 5 players SHARE the play-making responsibility - this is the best brand of basketball used by teams who are considered "smart" teams, like the Spurs, Warriors, and 90's Bulls (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s).

Remember that anytime an equal or less-talented team wins, they won by playing a superior brand of basketball, which overcomes the talent factor... Since Lebron prevents his teams from playing the best brand of basketball (equal-opportunity), equal or less-talented opponents pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).. Lebron's game prevents his teams from reaching their ceiling or playing to capacity, so his teams underperform.

Otoh, MJ's off-ball game increased the APG and assist % of his teammates - teammates RETAINED their playmaking duties alongside MJ, which allowed the Bulls to run the equal-opportunity triangle... Since MJ's game allowed the Bulls to play the best brand of basketball available at that time, equal or less-talented opponents couldn't pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball.. MJ's off-ball game allowed the team to reach it's capacity, which is why his teams never underperformed by losing to an equal or less-talented team... Ever

Lebron is probably the greatest of all time in terms of making bad teams good.

Not better than MJ... We can statistically show that MJ carried his 1989 Bulls more than Lebron carried his 2009 and 2010 teams:

We've already established that Lebron's supporting cast added enough help on top of his 28/8/7/49 to win 66 games in 2009, while MJ's supporting cast only added enough help to his 33/8/8/54 to win 47 games in 1989.

If you think that all 19 of the Cavs' higher win total was due to worse competition (and not better supporting cast), then consider how much better that makes MJ's playoff stats look, since they came against far better competition... Lebron's 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl playoff averages in 2009 are invalidated compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages in 1989, due to facing vastly inferior competition..

Of course, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast was better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This of course, must be true.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of higher-producing veterans, a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.. MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" that MJ faced (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m52s) were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast - the superior competition Jordan faced and his 1-man show was underscored by the Bulls being a 6-seed, and severe underdog in every series, compared to the Cavs being the #1 seed and favorite to make the Finals.

points per possession...

Right... Lebron's points-per-possession is below-average on isolations, midrange and post-ups... This is statistical fact - let me know if you need me to post the links to the NBA's player-tracking data for post-ups, midrange and isolations.

The only area where Lebron is elite is primary ballhandler (screen-roll/drive-and-kick)... This is unfortunate, since his below-average ability on post-ups, isolations and midrange preclude him from being as good in the 80's, when those were the only options remaining in the absence of 3-pointers needed to make drive-and-kick a mathematically viable option.
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DavisIsMyUniBro

09-26-2015, 08:09 PM

The 100+ guys that are ahead of Lebron in post-ups, isolations and midrange includes almost every single good/star player there is.. :confusedshrug: ... 100+ guys is a super-ton.

The only area where Lebron is elite is primary ballhandler (screen-roll/drive-and-kick)... This is unfortunate, since his below-average ability on post-ups, isolations and midrange preclude him from being as good in the 80's, when those were the only options remaining in the absence of 3-pointers needed to make drive-and-kick a mathematically viable option..

By turning his teammates from playmakers into play-finishers, Lebron prevents his team from running an equal-opportunity offense, where all 5 players SHARE the play-making responsibility - this is the best brand of basketball used by teams who are considered "smart" teams, like the Spurs, Warriors, and 90's Bulls (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s).

Remember that anytime an equal or less-talented team wins, they won by playing a superior brand of basketball, which overcomes the talent factor... Since Lebron prevents his teams from playing the best brand of basketball (equal-opportunity), equal or less-talented opponents pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).. Lebron's game prevents his teams from reaching their ceiling or playing to capacity, so his teams underperform.

Otoh, MJ's off-ball game increased the APG and assist % of his teammates - teammates RETAINED their playmaking duties alongside MJ, which allowed the Bulls to run the equal-opportunity triangle... Since MJ's game allowed the Bulls to play the best brand of basketball available at that time, equal or less-talented opponents couldn't pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball.. MJ's off-ball game allowed the team to reach it's capacity, which is why his teams never underperformed by losing to an equal or less-talented team... Ever

Not better than MJ... We can statistically show that MJ carried his 1989 Bulls more than Lebron carried his 2009 and 2010 teams (that underachieved their playoff seeding).

We've already established that Lebron's supporting cast added enough help on top of his 28/8/7/49 to win 66 games in 2009, while MJ's supporting cast only added enough help to his 33/8/8/54 to win 47 games in 1989.

If you think that all 19 of the Cavs' higher win total was due to worse competition (and not better supporting cast), then consider how much better that makes MJ's playoff stats look, since they came against far better competition... Lebron's 35/9/7/51/1.6 stl playoff averages in 2009 are invalidated compared to MJ's nearly identical 35/7/7/51/2.5 stl playoff averages in 1989, due to facing vastly inferior competition..

Of course, the other alternative is that Lebron's supporting cast was better, in addition to the aforementioned weaker comp.. This of course, must be true.. Lebron's supporting cast included an all-star and a slew of higher-producing veterans, a stark contrast from MJ's young cast.. MJ's 1989 Bulls and the "Jordan Rules" that MJ faced (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=22m52s) were simply more of a 1-man team.. Therefore, the gap in RS records was due to a combination of BOTH competition level and supporting cast - the superior competition Jordan faced and his 1-man show was underscored by the Bulls being a 6-seed, and severe underdog in every series, compared to the Cavs being the #1 seed and favorite to make the Finals.

Right... Lebron's points-per-possession is below-average on isolations, midrange and post-ups... This is statistical fact - let me know if you need me to post the links to the NBA's player-tracking data for post-ups, midrange and isolations.

The only area where Lebron is elite is primary ballhandler (screen-roll/drive-and-kick)... This is unfortunate, since his below-average ability on post-ups, isolations and midrange preclude him from being as good in the 80's, when those were the only options remaining in the absence of 3-pointers needed to make drive-and-kick a mathematically viable option.
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I havent slept for 23 ****ing hours

oh, and people saying he aint a good iso defender
https://twitter.com/SynergySST/status/180307307769511937
...
there were like, 50 people better than Davis in the pick and roll... does that prove anything? no.

IIRC, Lebron ranked in the 75th percentile in isolations. also, I dont just have to remember.
http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/isolation/?CF=Poss*G*100&Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&dir=1&sort=Percentile

Filtering in for players who have had more than 100 isolations, lebron ranks 20th. he is below average in the post up... but thats for this year. what about a few years ago?

Season To rim PPP Rank
2010-11 13.7% 1.043 4
2011-12 14.9% 0.959 5
2012-13 15.0% 0.972 4
2013-14 29.6% 1.185 1

You realize how the play type for primary ball handler works right? if he kicks it out its a spot up...

09? Im not even going to try to talk about that.

11, yeah, he did do bad.

14? really? 14?

I actually dare you to show that.

in a 3 year stretch without lebron, the Cavs went 1-14

171-61 with him btw

Bulls went 23-45.
When MJ got injured

so yeah...

as for that playoff arguement, I must kindly ask, what was their box plus? mmkay, thanks

btw, for him not being good at any other play

kindly tell me his ppp for the cut, the spot up, the hand off, as the roll man, and in transition. mmmk? thanks.

I find it funny how you are so offended by me saying they are comparable.

3ball

09-26-2015, 08:13 PM

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-16-2015/R29T3G.gif

and well, heres the difference. 60 pounds.

Exactly - Lebron's heavy weight would prevent him from being nimble enough to guard MJ's off-ball game and catch-and-go game - Lebron's Karl Malone-like physique isn't ideal for defending quick, high-motor off-ball players or catch-and-go players..

When has Lebron ever guarded the type of offense shown above (running off-ball like Reggie Miller, but done by a super-athlete who slashes to the rim)??.. Never - he's never had to guard a player like that.. As you can see, even dpoy players (Cooper and Rodman) who have OPTIMAL physiques for guarding quick, catch-and-go players can't keep up with MJ.

It would be IMMEDIATELY evident that Lebron's big ass can't run around and guard MJ.. It would look like a mismatch from the outset - no coach would sap Lebron's energy by having him guard MJ... JR Smith would get the nod, or Wade, or Larry Hughes in 2007 Cleveland.. It's better those guys get dropped off than Lebron.

and I will laugh if you post the barea gif. because you and I both know how that would work out now/in a real one on one

Lebron isn't a post player - he wouldn't post up Jordan, because he's NEVER posted up ANY player repeatedly.. He's virtually never had a big game by posting up.. It's never happened because he has no post game and isn't a post player - he's a ball-dominator that gets literally 75% of his offense from screen-roll, isolations, or transition..

The 75% figure is statistical fact (just like his 8.6% post-up rate).

Btw, an an unrelated note, you know that MJ is the greatest iso player of all time right?
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DavisIsMyUniBro

09-26-2015, 08:18 PM

Exactly - Lebron's heavy weight would prevent him from being nimble enough to guard MJ's off-ball game and catch-and-go game - Lebron's Karl Malone-like physique isn't ideal for defending quick, high-motor off-ball players or catch-and-go players..

When has Lebron ever guarded the type of offense shown above (running off-ball like Reggie Miller, but done by a super-athlete who slashes to the rim)??.. Never - he's never had to guard a player like that.. As you can see, even dpoy players (Cooper and Rodman) who have OPTIMAL physiques for guarding quick, catch-and-go players can't keep up with MJ.

It would be IMMEDIATELY evident that Lebron's big ass can't run around and guard MJ.. It would look like a mismatch from the outset - no coach would sap Lebron's energy by having him guard MJ... JR Smith would get the nod, or Wade, or Larry Hughes in 2007 Cleveland.. It's better those guys get dropped off than Lebron.

Lebron isn't a post player - he wouldn't post up Jordan, because he's NEVER posted up ANY player repeatedly.. He's virtually never had a big game by posting up.. It's never happened because he has no post game and isn't a post player - he's a ball-dominator that gets literally 75% of his offense from screen-roll, isolations, or transition..

The 75% figure is statistical fact (just like his 8.6% post-up rate).

Btw, an an unrelated note, you know that MJ is the greatest iso player of all time right?
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****ing kidding me right?

its Bendtner

3ball

09-26-2015, 08:22 PM

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-22-2015/LaRhrm.gif

Filtering in for players who have had more than 100 isolations, lebron ranks 20th.

You know that MJ was the greatest isolation player of all time right?.. So, how does that compare to Lebron being 20th in a single season?

For example - see the gif above?... Lebron would never.... in a million years... get an isolation bucket in that spot like MJ did... MJ had the quick-decision ability and REPERTOIRE to isolate the defender really quickly in that spot and get an AND1...

Lebron wouldn't get an isolation bucket there - he'd hold the ball for about 5 seconds and then pull it out for a high screen-roll.. Btw, that's the type of quick, catch-and-go play that Lebron's big, lumbering physique isn't quick enough or suited to guard... No coach would ever want Lebron's big ass chasing around and expending energy guarding that.
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DavisIsMyUniBro

09-26-2015, 08:23 PM

DavisIsMyUniBro

09-26-2015, 08:25 PM

Rose was 1/15 (6.66%) from the field with LeBron guarding him in G4/G5 in 2011

No offense, but I dont respect you as a poster, at all.

nevertheless,
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?703598-Synergy-on-LeBron-isolation-defense

3ball

09-26-2015, 08:28 PM

thing is, Lebron aint exactly slow.... I mean come on.

As for th e 75% figure, do you mean he runs the pick and roll 75% of the time?
He isn't slow for a forward... But for a guard, his speed and quickness is average, and nowadays, easily below-average.

Again, Lebron's big, PF-type physique isn't quick enough or suited to guard MJ's quick, catch-and-go game.. Lebron would get destroyed.

As for the 75% - that's the proportion of Lebron's offense that's either screen-roll, isolation or transition (post-ups are 8.6%)... He's simply not a post player and he's never had a big game on the post or exploited ANYONE on the post... But somehow he's going to post up the goat... it's ludicrous
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DavisIsMyUniBro

09-26-2015, 08:31 PM

He isn't slow for a forward... For a guard, he's average, and nowadays, easily below-average.

Again, Lebron's big, PF-type physique isn't quick enough or suited to guard MJ's quick, catch-and-go game.. Lebron would get destroyed.

As for the 75% - that's the proportion of Lebron's offense that's either screen-roll, isolation or transition... He's simply not a post player and he's never had a big game or exploited ANYONE on the post.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/80162-lebron-james-the-nfls-ultimate-tight-end

timed at a 4.4 40 yard, which is very slightly below MJ.

DavisIsMyUniBro

09-26-2015, 08:34 PM

LeBron's top speed was measured at over 20 miles per hour, which was as fast as Chris Paul's. NFL quarterbacks take an average of .4 seconds to release a pass; it takes LeBron .18 seconds. LeBron passes the ball at up to 40 miles per hour, and can hit a target who is about 12 yards away faster than Tom Brady.

From sports science (this was at age 30ish btw)

3ball

09-26-2015, 08:39 PM

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-27-2015/JjPlqw.gif

timed at a 4.4 40 yard, which is very slightly below MJ.

That's the same kind of report there was about MJ - MJ ran a 4.4 too.

But a full-on sprint has nothing to do with basketball.. Basketball is about changing direction, stopping on a dime, and generating momentum/quickness from a stand-still (which Lebron lacks in the gif above, so he can't stay in front of George).

Lebron's big ass can't do these things well enough to guard MJ... If George can blow by Lebron so easily with a basic dribble and honestly, a weak move, then what would MJ do...

MJ was way quicker, stronger, more hops, athleticism and far better moves.. There is NO WAY a coach would put Lebron on MJ.. The quickness mismatch would be obvious.

DavisIsMyUniBro

09-26-2015, 08:45 PM

That's the same kind of report there was about MJ - MJ ran a 4.4 too.

But a full-on sprint has nothing to do with basketball.. Basketball is about changing direction, stopping on a dime, and generating momentum/quickness from a stand-still (which Lebron lacks in the gif above, so he can't stay in front of George).

Lebron's big ass can't do these things well enough to guard MJ... If George can blow by Lebron so easily with a basic dribble and honestly, a weak move, then what would MJ do...

MJ was way quicker, stronger, more hops, athleticism and far better moves.. There is NO WAY a coach would put Lebron on MJ.. The quickness mismatch would be obvious.

I mean, zooming in, he kind of slipped before George got back in position.

His iso defense was steller a few years back.

40 yard is explosiveness, not quickness

ShaqTwizzle

09-26-2015, 10:17 PM

I think Lebron would have done very poorly against that Bulls defense.
He doesn't have that unstoppable post game that Magic had.
The fact that Magic had the numbers he did even while facing Jordan & Pippen at their best is a testament to just how great he was.

Infact one of my biggest critisms of Lebron is that his halfcourt offensive game is much more "stoppable" then many of the other GOAT guys.

Look at what happened to him against the Spurs in 2007 or even in 2013 where he struggled badly over the first 4-5 games.

Can you imagine Peak Shaq or Peak Jordan getting embarassed like that over 5 games of a Finals series against an old Spurs team led by Grandpa Duncan?

The fact is if you have size and can keep Lebron from effectively utilizing his slashing game then he has to rely on his flawed jumper.
If his jumper is on he does fine but if it isn't... oh boy.

See also against the Mavericks who "figured him out" with a smart strategy and Boston usually frustrated him.

There is no stopping Kareem and his skyhook.
There is no stopping Shaq and his power game.
There is no stopping Jordans slashing game and even if you can on certain possessions his jumper is far more reliable then Lebron's is.

That is why Peak wise I don't rank Lebron that highly because while his numbers put him up with the best that doesn't account for portability against other defenses.
I mean he is in my Top 10 but I don't think he cracks my Top 5.
That truly unstoppable halfcourt game might not matter for Lebron against most opponents but if I am facing a Boston or a Spurs or a team with a new defensive strategy (Mavericks) I would much rather have those other guys because I know they'll probably still do fine while with Lebron I would be less confident of that.

Brook(lyn)Lopez

09-26-2015, 10:39 PM

to handle Magic means to get HIV.

Smoke117

09-26-2015, 11:30 PM

That's the same kind of report there was about MJ - MJ ran a 4.4 too.

But a full-on sprint has nothing to do with basketball.. Basketball is about changing direction, stopping on a dime, and generating momentum/quickness from a stand-still (which Lebron lacks in the gif above, so he can't stay in front of George).

Lebron's big ass can't do these things well enough to guard MJ... If George can blow by Lebron so easily with a basic dribble and honestly, a weak move, then what would MJ do...

MJ was way quicker, stronger, more hops, athleticism and far better moves.. There is NO WAY a coach would put Lebron on MJ.. The quickness mismatch would be obvious.

:facepalm Just stop. This might actually be the dumbest thing you've ever said up to this point.

Hey Yo

09-27-2015, 12:38 AM

You know that MJ was the greatest isolation player of all time right?.. So, how does that compare to Lebron being 20th in a single season?

For example - see the gif above?... Lebron would never.... in a million years... get an isolation bucket in that spot like MJ did... MJ had the quick-decision ability and REPERTOIRE to isolate the defender really quickly in that spot and get an AND1...

Lebron wouldn't get an isolation bucket there - he'd hold the ball for about 5 seconds and then pull it out for a high screen-roll.. Btw, that's the type of quick, catch-and-go play that Lebron's big, lumbering physique isn't quick enough or suited to guard... No coach would ever want Lebron's big ass chasing around and expending energy guarding that.
.
How much time was left on the shot clock when MJ took that shot?

is it possible that his quick decision was due to the shot clock close to running out?

3ball

09-27-2015, 01:26 AM

:facepalm Just stop. This might actually be the dumbest thing you've ever said up to this point.
MJ was way stronger than Paul George dumbass.. You guys have zero reading comprehension and should all go back to school.. seriously

Smoke117

09-27-2015, 01:29 AM

MJ was way stronger than Paul George dumbass.. You guys have zero reading comprehension and should all go back to school.. seriously

Oh you're right...well that's what happens when you repeat shit over and over...people start skimming through your posts.

3ball

09-27-2015, 01:33 AM

Oh you're right...well that's what happens when you repeat shit over and over...people start skimming through your posts.
fair enough

3ball

09-27-2015, 01:40 AM

Smoke117

09-27-2015, 01:44 AM

fair enough

That and and all you usually talk about is Jordan and Lebron...and Jordan is not "way" stronger than George...especially a pre come back Jordan. I don't know where you get this idea that George is a twig and weak.

3ball

09-27-2015, 02:01 AM

That and and all you usually talk about is Jordan and Lebron...and Jordan is not "way" stronger than George...especially a pre come back Jordan. I don't know where you get this idea that George is a twig and weak.
George is a twig and weak... It's not just his skinny frame, arms and legs.. Look how non-physical he plays compared to MJ.. George can't overpower defenders and taking contact like MJ.

Also, the George/Lebron matchup is a great example of how Lebron isn't a post player... He should've been abusing George on the block.. But George was let off the hook - his skinny ass got to defend Lebron on the perimeter - Lebron wastes his size by dominating the ball so much - George may as well have been guarding a 6'1" PG.. :confusedshrug:

Lebron is not a post player - he doesn't have legit post repertoire and has never HAD a big game from the post.. This is why MJ is a bigger mismatch for Lebron than the other way around.. Pippen wouldn't need to switch over to Lebron for short stretches like was needed in the 1991 Finals... That occurred because Magic was posting MJ up every possession... But Lebron would do the same thing he did to George - pound the ball 30 feet from the hoop like a 6'1" PG and waste his height by not posting up.

Smoke117

09-27-2015, 02:07 AM

George is a twig and weak... It's not just his skinny frame, arms and legs.. Look how non-physical he plays compared to MJ.. George can't overpower defenders and taking contact like MJ.

Also, the George/Lebron matchup is a great example of how Lebron isn't a post player... He should've been abusing George on the block.. But George was let off the hook - his skinny ass got to defend Lebron on the perimeter - Lebron wastes his size by dominating the ball so much - George may as well have been guarding a 6'1" PG.. :confusedshrug:

Lebron is not a post player - he doesn't have legit post repertoire and has never HAD a big game from the post.. This is why MJ is a bigger mismatch for Lebron than the other way around.. Pippen wouldn't need to switch over to Lebron for short stretches like was needed in the 1991 Finals... That occurred because Magic was posting MJ up every possession... But Lebron would do the same thing he did to George - pound the ball 30 feet from the hoop like a 6'1" PG and waste his height by not posting up.

While it's true Paul George is more likely to go to the jump shot...that's more because of his lack of skill off the dribble than anything else.

I don't really give a shit about Lebron so let's move on to Dwyane Wade (up to the 12 season before the knee stuff) then...how would Jordan do against him defensively? He's much better off the dribble in an iso situation and he's always been a very strong, compact sg, so...what say you in regards to this match up?

3ball

09-27-2015, 02:20 AM

:facepalm

T_L_P

09-27-2015, 07:09 AM

If LeBron couldn't handle Jason Terry, how could he handle Andre Igoudala?

Ooops, forgot:

http://socialmediapot.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Screen-Shot-2015-06-17-at-1.04.07-AM.png

DavisIsMyUniBro

09-27-2015, 07:53 AM

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-16-2015/R29T3G.gif

I still haven't had anyone explain how Lebron's Barkley-like weight would be able to chase MJ around all night.. In today's game, he doesn't have to chase guys around much, certainly nowhere near what he'd have to do with MJ.

Also, no one has mentioned a single instance when he had to guard someone like MJ, who moved off-ball like Reggie Miller but was super-athletic slasher when he caught the ball (and an all-time midrange shooter) - I guess that's because there are very few players in history like this and he's never faced any of them.

MJ is a bigger mismatch for Lebron than the other way around - like, MJ could guard Lebron for an entire game, whereas no coach would sap Lebron's energy by making him guard MJ the entire game.. Again, Lebron wouldn't post MJ anymore than he posts anyone else (which is about 8.6% of the time), because Lebron is not a post player, doesn't have legit post repertoire that he can rely on for a big game, and has never HAD a big game from the post.

the 40 yard dash is a measure of explosiveness, not of speed. Anyway, to get anywhere near MJ's 40 yard he would either need to have similar explosiveness, or be much faster while sprinting.

as for him not having a post game... that was last year.

the idea of him not being good in the post really isnt true. at all.
(frequency)
2011-12 13.9%
2012-13 11.9%
2013-14 16.2%
(ppp)

frequency wise, from
2011-12 0.959 5th
2012-13 0.972 4th
2013-14 1.185 1th

from 12-14, his ppp was 1.04, which was solid enough.

his frequency was 14%. that isnt exactly a little.

Didnt he guard Derrick rose and make him go 1/15?

And didnt Derrick rose have the record for fastest run ever recorded with the ball?

as for being stronger than Lebron...
I honestly cant give a real response to that. its basically like saying Davis is stronger than rookie Shaq. (and yes, the weight difference is pretty much the same)

Im still wondering where you got your 75% stat.

You also havent responded to what I said before.
Ill just post it here again.

people saying he aint a good iso defender
https://twitter.com/SynergySST/statu...07307769511937

IIRC, Lebron ranked in the 75th percentile in isolations. also, I dont just have to remember.
http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/iso...t=Percenti le

Filtering in for players who have had more than 100 isolations, lebron ranks 20th. he is below average in the post up... but thats for this year. what about a few years ago?

Season To rim PPP Rank
2010-11 13.7% 1.043 4
2011-12 14.9% 0.959 5
2012-13 15.0% 0.972 4
2013-14 29.6% 1.185 1

You realize how the play type for primary ball handler works right? if he kicks it out its a spot up...

09? Im not even going to try to talk about that.

11, yeah, he did do bad. not as bad as some think, but he was bad.

14? really? 14? they werent equal at all.

As for helping teams more... I dare you to show it.

in a 3 year stretch without lebron, the Cavs went 1-14

171-61 with him btw

Bulls went 23-45.
When MJ got injured

so yeah...

as for that playoff arguement, I must kindly ask, what was their box plus? mmkay, thanks

btw, for him not being good at any other play

kindly tell me his ppp;/percentile for the cut, the spot up, the hand off, as the roll man, and in transition. mmmk? thanks.

I find it funny how you are so offended by me saying they are comparable.

andgar923

09-27-2015, 08:18 AM

DavisIsMyUniBro

09-27-2015, 08:30 AM

for the millionth time...

Running fast in the 40 can't be compared to quickness required in basketball.

AGAIN

YOU CAN'T COMPARE 40 YARD DASH SPEED TO BASKETBALL QUICKNESS!

If some of you actually played basketball you'll understand that.

And for the record.

Daring a shitty/overrated Rose to shoot, is different than guarding one of the (if not THE) greatest mid range shooters of all time.

For as much credit as some of you wanna give Bron for daring Rose to shoot, he (Lebron) has been embarrassed multiple times by players slower than Rose and by players nowhere near MJ.

As far as guarding Bron....

Two reserves have won NBA Finals MVP for giving it to him on both ends.

Idiots.

That's the equivalent of Richard Dumas or Byron Russell getting the MVP vs MJ.

the 40 yard dash is a measure of explosiveness. its a measuring point. yes, you can compare it. to say that Jordan has a monstrous speed advantage over Lebron, is just wrong. especially saying that its more visible than the 50 pound strength difference.
I mean, the fact is that Rose has similar explosiveness to MJ means that, according to your guys' logic, he should easily get past lebron. the only way he ever blew by Lebron was by the P and R
IIRC, only 10 isolation field goals were made against Lebron in 2013.

andgar923

09-27-2015, 08:45 AM

the 40 yard dash is a measure of explosiveness. its a measuring point. yes, you can compare it. to say that Jordan has a monstrous speed advantage over Lebron, is just wrong. especially saying that its more visible than the 50 pound strength difference.
I mean, the fact is that Rose has similar explosiveness to MJ means that, according to your guys' logic, he should easily get past lebron. the only way he ever blew by Lebron was by the P and R
IIRC, only 10 isolation field goals were made against Lebron in 2013.

No you f*ckin can't compare it.

I ran track in college, I played basketball against track players and football players that ran the 40 in crazy times.

While it may give them an advantage on the open floor, inside of close proximity it doesn't truly equate to basketball speed.

Im not gonna sit here and say they aren't related, because yes a fast sprinter will most likely be quick with his feet. But there's plenty of runners that are 'power' runners that gather momentum as they run.

There's fat guys that have great basketball quickness, yet they'd probably run the 40 in 8 seconds.

I've given plenty example of this in the past.

Who do you think is faster in a foot race:

Blake Griffin or Zack Randolph?

Lebron James or Diaw?

Lebron James or Bowen?

I"ve seen Chris Gatling destroy people with his first step, players he should have no business beating.

Zach Randolph's fat ass has made a career at beating people with quick first steps and jab moves. He's killed Griffin time and time again and has stopped him time and time again, many times with his first step. The examples of slower sprinters beating faster sprinters from moving to point A to point B on a court are plenty.

A better way to compare is by comparing a trailer to a motorcycle.

A trailer may not start off fast, but gathers momentum. While a motorcycle is pure speed from the start. If they raced a distance equivalent to a 40 yard dash the trailer might win but will need to gather momentum to do so.

Lebron is a trailer

Better suited for football, not basketball. Better suited for an open basketball court where he gathers momentum, not a condensed paint with bodies around.

DavisIsMyUniBro

09-27-2015, 08:51 AM

No you f*ckin can't compare it.

I ran track in college, I played basketball against track players and football players that ran the 40 in crazy times.

While it may give them an advantage on the open floor, inside of close proximity it doesn't truly equate to basketball speed.

Im not gonna sit here and say they aren't related, because yes a fast sprinter will most likely be quick with his feet. But there's plenty of runners that are 'power' runners that gather momentum as they run.

There's fat guys that have great basketball quickness, yet they'd probably run the 40 in 8 seconds.

I've given plenty example of this in the past.

Who do you think is faster in a foot race:

Blake Griffin or Zack Randolph?

Lebron James or Diaw?

Lebron James or Bowen?

I"ve seen Chris Gatling destroy people with his first step, players he should have no business beating.

Zach Randolph's fat ass has made a career at beating people with quick first steps and jab moves. He's killed Griffin time and time again and has stopped him time and time again, many times with his first step. The examples of slower sprinters beating faster sprinters from moving to point A to point B on a court are plenty.

A better way to compare is by comparing a trailer to a motorcycle.

A trailer may not start off fast, but gathers momentum. While a motorcycle is pure speed from the start. If they raced a distance equivalent to a 40 yard dash the trailer might win but will need to gather momentum to do so.

Lebron is a trailer

Better suited for football, not basketball. Better suited for an open basketball court where he gathers momentum, not a condensed paint with bodies around.

You realize that its 40 yards right?

Also, to run the 40 in that time, and if Lebron wasnt explosive, then he would need to be a much faster sprinter.

Actually, I just realized the arguement. you are arguing that Lebron isnt explosive.

Besides, he still only had 10 FG made against him in 2013 from the iso. if he was slow, then people should be scoring all over him in the iso right?

so yeah...

btw, why didnt Rose just "burst" past Lebron then? he has a similar first step to MJ.

and tbh, yes, he was shut down by Iguadola (albeit, he was missing shots he normally makes)

Against the spurs, he averaged 28 ppg on 58%.

and no, he didnt score most of his points in "garbage time"

I dare anyone to prove it. he shot 67% against Kawhi from games 1-3

andgar923

09-27-2015, 09:07 AM

You realize that its 40 yards right?

Also, to run the 40 in that time, and if Lebron wasnt explosive, then he would need to be a much faster sprinter.

Actually, I just realized the arguement. you are arguing that Lebron isnt explosive.

Besides, he still only had 10 FG made against him in 2013 from the iso.

so yeah... your arguement is completely invalid.

Why are you being so obtuse?

While true they are related, they are not the same.

In basketball you aren't running straight for the most part. It's usually side to side, which doesn't require the same muscles that one would use in running straight (track). Whether you're on offense and defense, one isn't truly moving forward all the time. You're not in the sprinting stance either. You're usually side stepping, coming off a move, off a dribble, and when you do go straight there's usually a man in the way or you have to shift a bit.... so again, it isn't a straight race. It's usually stop and go, stop and go.

Now on defense, you're almost always shifting to the side or back. You're stopping, you're moving an inch here a step there, you're lower to the floor, again... nowhere near the same as a track star.

Again, I've ran track and the exercises that one does for track and basketball are different. The weight training is different, the muscles and cardio that one concentrates on are different. Not vastly different, but there's differences.

Yes one can/do incorporate the two, but it doesn't mean that they're used of the same purposes and not the same amount of concentration. You won't see Kobe working out exclusively like Bolt. You might see Kobe do a few sprint exercises, but it'll mostly be basketball specific ones.

andgar923

09-27-2015, 09:08 AM

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/improve_basketball_speed.htm

STFU

DavisIsMyUniBro

09-27-2015, 09:15 AM

Why are you being so obtuse?

While true they are related, they are not the same.

In basketball you aren't running straight for the most part. It's usually side to side, which doesn't require the same muscles that one would use in running straight (track). Whether you're on offense and defense, one isn't truly moving forward all the time. You're not in the sprinting stance either. You're usually side stepping, coming off a move, off a dribble, and when you do go straight there's usually a man in the way or you have to shift a bit.... so again, it isn't a straight race. It's usually stop and go, stop and go.

Now on defense, you're almost always shifting to the side or back. You're stopping, you're moving an inch here a step there, you're lower to the floor, again... nowhere near the same as a track star.

Again, I've ran track and the exercises that one does for track and basketball are different. The weight training is different, the muscles and cardio that one concentrates on are different. Not vastly different, but there's differences.

Yes one can/do incorporate the two, but it doesn't mean that they're used of the same purposes and not the same amount of concentration. You won't see Kobe working out exclusively like Bolt. You might see Kobe do a few sprint exercises, but it'll mostly be basketball specific ones.

Well obviously they arent the same.

But you are basically saying Lebron isnt explosive.

and thats besides the point.
at his defensive peak (09-12 I guess)

He was a phenomenal isolation defender.

Had he been so slow, why didnt Rose just blow by him on every opportunity?

And anyway, we arent exactly arguing "what if Jordan Isos up Lebron every game"

We are arguing if they are EVEN COMPARABLE if they go one on one.

Jordan doesent have a large enough speed advantage over lebron that he'll just blow by him ina second.

heck, in one on one, all Lebron will do is post up the whole time since there arent any offensive fouls.

90sgoat

09-27-2015, 09:23 AM

DavisIsMyUniBro

09-27-2015, 09:30 AM

Damn you can tell who doesn't play ball.

Basketball is about quick change of directions in the half court, which is about quick first steps. Lebron has a very slow first step, which is why you practically never see him beat a man off the dribble in the half court without a screen.

IIRC, Lebron is in teh 75th percentile in isolations.

Why would he need to sidestep when he could just power through?

I dont get this obsession with his first step. as long as he scores, its fine.

Besides, why wouldnt he just post up MJ?

Asukal

09-27-2015, 10:50 AM

What part of 2/6 don't you understand? Lestans are ridiculously stupid. :roll: :oldlol: :facepalm

OldSchoolBBall

09-27-2015, 10:52 AM

IIRC, Lebron is in teh 75th percentile in isolations.

Why would he need to sidestep when he could just power through?

I dont get this obsession with his first step. as long as he scores, its fine.

Besides, why wouldnt he just post up MJ?

He's only allowed to "power through" because they refuse to call offensive fouls on him when he clears guys out with his arms, elbows, and straight up barreling through defenders who have position many times. In previous era of the NBA, when stuff like that would be called offensive fouls, he would accordingly be less effective, not more.

iamgine

09-27-2015, 11:10 AM

Lebron would get screens and get free within the offensive scheme. There's no such thing as consistent iso 1 on 1 in today's game.

ArbitraryWater

09-27-2015, 11:12 AM

DavisIsMyUniBro

09-27-2015, 12:18 PM

I mean, what are we even arguing here? teh speed difference does not equal the power difference.

3ball

09-27-2015, 01:04 PM

While it's true Paul George is more likely to go to the jump shot...that's more because of his lack of skill off the dribble than anything else (like him not having strength).

I've never heard anyone say George is strong or has good strength - whereas a zillion guys have said that about MJ:

Magic Johnson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=1m52s
Ron Artest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5dXZxj6Zbc&t=0m59s

let's move on to Dwyane Wade (up to the 12 season before the knee stuff) then...how would Jordan do against him defensively?

Wade would do much better against MJ than Lebron imo... Prime Wade was a better scorer and much quicker - he didn't wait a long time with the ball like Lebron and was much more aggressive - he would put more consistent pressure on MJ..

It would be a shootout between Wade and MJ - their stats would be very close, although MJ would have the edge... But the main difference is that MJ would be getting his points in a wider variety of ways - primary ballhandler, post, triple threat (http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-21-2015/02jy9L.gif) (pre-dribble, stationary position), off-ball/off-screen...

Accordingly, if you surround Wade and MJ with 1000 randomly-selected supporting casts, MJ's record is better in the end, because he fits with teammates better and can play in whatever fashion allows them to play to their strengths and gives his team the best chance to win.

The previous sentence is not bullshit - when MJ needed to play off-ball to fit into the triangle or so Pippen could get some shine and feel comfortable, MJ had the capacity to do it well enough to go 6/6 while still putting up all-time stat... Whereas with Wade, it's more of a stretch and a much tougher adjustment for him - he might not be able to make the adjustments at all, or without his stats dropping.. Wade is simply not elite in ALL aspects of scoring like MJ.

Papaya Petee

09-27-2015, 01:07 PM

People bringing up Boris Diaw acting like Lebron didnt average 25/10/7 and 28/8/5 in those series.

Lebrons getting his stats regardless of the outcome of the series and whose guarding him.

09 and 2012 Lebron matched up in a series vs any Jordan is still getting his 30/8/7

3ball

09-27-2015, 01:13 PM

09 and 2012 Lebron matched up in a series vs any Jordan is still getting his 30/8/7

And in 2010 and 2011 he gets smoked..

Of course, he wouldn't get those stats in 2009 or 2012 either if he had to guard MJ... He isn't capable of chasing around MJ all game and still getting those numbers..

Also, in 2009, his stats aren't impressive for the same reason his 2015 Finals stats weren't impressive - the stats were achieved employing a playground style where Lebron gets the ball at the top of the key and takes it himself every time.. This style is meant to accumulate stats but has virtually never won, and never will.. Stats achieved employing a playground style that has no chance of winning aren't impressive and don't count..

Now if you can get those stats in a Spurs, Warriors, or Mavs-type offense - an optimal, cutting-edge, equal opportunity offense that can actually WIN - then the stats are far more impressive, since it takes far more skill to get all-time stats in a winning, equal-opportunity system than a playground-style, aau, stat-friendly format that Lebron has used his entire career.
.

Rocketswin2013

09-27-2015, 02:01 PM

Lebron can't post worth a lick compared to Magic... or MJ.

Lebron has NEVER exploited a smaller player by posting up and having a big game by posting up.. It's never happened because he has no post game and isn't a post player - he's a ball-dominator that gets literally 75% of his offense from screen-roll, isolations, or transition..

The 75% figure is statistical fact (just like his 8.6% post-up rate).
.
:facepalm

POST-UP POWERS
Most efficient post-up players in the 2013-14 season, according to Synergy (minimum 125 plays).

Player Plays Points FG% %FT Pts/play
LeBron James 261 283 55.9 21.8 1.08
Kevin Durant 207 221 47.8 20.8 1.07
Dirk Nowitzki 534 568 50.8 15.5 1.06
Dwyane Wade 145 153 53.7 17.2 1.06
Carmelo Anthony 420 427 49.4 16.7 1.02
Al Jefferson 840 813 51.0 11.0 0.97
Arron Afflalo 173 167 49.6 14.5 0.97
Blake Griffin 541 517 47.8 22.7 0.96
Joe Johnson 244 233 50.8 12.3 0.96
Brandon Bass 241 229 44.8 17.0 0.95

LeBron would take Jordan to the post and murder him. He played more than half his minutes at PF against tweeners, big men, and the other teams best combination of length and athleticism.

A 6'6" 200 pound guard is not bothering him.

You haven't even denied this so I guess I'm finished here.

sdot_thadon

09-27-2015, 02:07 PM

I love how everyone keeps bringing up MJ's offense when this thread said how would he be able to handle lebron, and not otherwise. Sounds legit.:applause:

3ball

09-27-2015, 02:26 PM

I love how everyone keeps bringing up MJ's offense when this thread said how would he be able to handle lebron, and not otherwise. Sounds legit.:applause:
MJ would do better against Lebron than Jimmy Butler did, and Butler held Lebron to 39.9% in the 2015 2nd Round..

Again, if Lebron had actual post ability and was actually a post player, than he would do well against Jordan and would have a chance to outplay him/get coach to switch MJ off him.

But he isn't a post player... He has no post moves, no touch around the rim, no touch or efficiency on his turnaround - consequently, he rarely posts - he's virtually NEVER had a big game from the post, or exploited a player by posting more than just one-offs... But all of sudden he's going to become MJ on the post and dominate from the post, when it's virtually NEVER happened before???... You guys couldn't be more delusional.

If MJ guarded Lebron, Lebron would let MJ off the hook by never posting, just like he did Butler and Paul George for that matter.. Lebron would play on the perimeter like he always does, which would allow MJ to guard Lebron ALL GAME - meanwhile, coach would have to take Lebron OFF of Jordan because Lebron is too big to chase MJ around.

Rocketswin2013

09-27-2015, 02:40 PM

Lebron can't post worth a lick compared to Magic... or MJ.

Lebron has NEVER exploited a smaller player by posting up and having a big game by posting up.. It's never happened because he has no post game and isn't a post player - he's a ball-dominator that gets literally 75% of his offense from screen-roll, isolations, or transition..

The 75% figure is statistical fact (just like his 8.6% post-up rate).
.
:facepalm

POST-UP POWERS
Most efficient post-up players in the 2013-14 season, according to Synergy (minimum 125 plays).

Player Plays Points FG% %FT Pts/play
LeBron James 261 283 55.9 21.8 1.08
Kevin Durant 207 221 47.8 20.8 1.07
Dirk Nowitzki 534 568 50.8 15.5 1.06
Dwyane Wade 145 153 53.7 17.2 1.06
Carmelo Anthony 420 427 49.4 16.7 1.02
Al Jefferson 840 813 51.0 11.0 0.97
Arron Afflalo 173 167 49.6 14.5 0.97
Blake Griffin 541 517 47.8 22.7 0.96
Joe Johnson 244 233 50.8 12.3 0.96
Brandon Bass 241 229 44.8 17.0 0.95

Rocketswin2013

09-27-2015, 02:43 PM

MJ would do better against Lebron than Jimmy Butler did, and Butler held Lebron to 39.9% in the 2015 2nd Round..

Again, if Lebron had actual post ability and was actually a post player, than he would do well against Jordan and would have a chance to outplay him/get coach to switch MJ off him.

But he isn't a post player... He has no post moves, no touch around the rim, no touch or efficiency on his turnaround - consequently, he rarely posts - he's virtually NEVER had a big game from the post, or exploited a player by posting more than just one-offs... But all of sudden he's going to become MJ on the post and dominate from the post, when it's virtually NEVER happened before???... You guys couldn't be more delusional.

If MJ guarded Lebron, Lebron would let MJ off the hook by never posting, just like he did Butler and Paul George for that matter.. Lebron would play on the perimeter like he always does, which would allow MJ to guard Lebron ALL GAME - meanwhile, coach would have to take Lebron OFF of Jordan because Lebron is too big to chase MJ around.
You have no idea what you are talking about. LeBron would throw Jordan into a post-up torture chamber.

LeBron in 2014 was defended by tweeners, big men, and the teams best combination of length and athleticism. He spent more than half his minutes at PF.

His eyes would light up if a 6'6 200 pound guard tried to stop him.

Edit: Jordan is smaller than Butler and George. 6'7" 230, 6'9" 225. Compared to 6'6" 200 pound Jordan. Some of his measurements are as low as 195 pounds.

DonDadda59

09-27-2015, 02:49 PM

:facepalm

LeBron would take Jordan to the post and murder him. He played more than half his minutes at PF against tweeners, big men, and the other teams best combination of length and athleticism.

A 6'6" 200 pound guard is not bothering him.

You haven't even denied this so I guess I'm finished here.

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/originals/2015/06/05/film-study-iguodala-vs-lebron.nba/

http://www.isportstimes.com/data/images/full/2015/06/17/8289-andre-iguodala.jpg

DavisIsMyUniBro

09-27-2015, 03:02 PM

And in 2010 and 2011 he gets smoked..

Of course, he wouldn't get those stats in 2009 or 2012 either if he had to guard MJ... He isn't capable of chasing around MJ all game and still getting those numbers..

Also, in 2009, his stats aren't impressive for the same reason his 2015 Finals stats weren't impressive - the stats were achieved employing a playground style where Lebron gets the ball at the top of the key and takes it himself every time.. This style is meant to accumulate stats but has virtually never won, and never will.. Stats achieved employing a playground style that has no chance of winning aren't impressive and don't count..

Now if you can get those stats in a Spurs, Warriors, or Mavs-type offense - an optimal, cutting-edge, equal opportunity offense that can actually WIN - then the stats are far more impressive, since it takes far more skill to get all-time stats in a winning, equal-opportunity system than a playground-style, aau, stat-friendly format that Lebron has used his entire career.
.

Jesus Christ man.

I'll talk about the rest later, but I think we have WELL established that he is a very good post player, at least from 11-14

3ball

09-27-2015, 03:02 PM

LeBron in 2014 was defended by tweeners, big men, and the teams best combination of length and athleticism. He spent more than half his minutes at PF.

In your data, Lebron posted up 261 times in 2014 (261/77 = 3.3 times per game) and 153 times in 2015 (153/69 = 2.2 times per game, which was 8.6% of his possessions).

So it's a fact that Lebron posts up less than 10% of the time and has NEVER had a big game from the post.. So he wouldn't all of a sudden start crushing the goat on the post, just like he never crushed Butler on the post, or any other defender he's ever faced.

So Lebron posts up 2-3 times per game and less than 10% of the time, proving my point that he never posts up.. Not only does Lebron hardly ever post-up - but remember - posting up isn't as efficient nowadays as screen-roll/drive-and-kick, so no coach would put Lebron on the post anyway for any extended period of time.. It simply NEVER happens in today's game and never would.

Again, if MJ guarded Lebron, Lebron would let MJ off the hook by never posting, just like he did Butler and virtually every defender he's ever faced.. Lebron would play on the perimeter like he always does, which would allow MJ to guard Lebron ALL GAME - meanwhile, coach would have to take Lebron OFF of Jordan because Lebron is too big to chase MJ around.
.

3ball

09-27-2015, 03:04 PM

I'll talk about the rest later, but I think we have WELL established that he is a very good post player, at least from 11-14

Lebron has never posted up more than 10% of the time!!!!

How does that make him a good post player?... He's NEVER had a big game from the post, EVER... Quit being delusional and acting like Lebron is a post player - he isn't, and the stats show he almost never posts up.

If MJ guarded Lebron, Lebron would let MJ off the hook by never posting, just like he did Butler and virtually ever defender he's ever faced.. Lebron would play on the perimeter like he always does, which would allow MJ to guard Lebron ALL GAME - meanwhile, coach would have to take Lebron OFF of Jordan because Lebron is too big to chase MJ around.
.

DavisIsMyUniBro

09-27-2015, 03:04 PM

It's a fact that Lebron rarely posts up and has NEVER had a big game from the post.. So he wouldn't all of a sudden start crushing the goat on the post, just like he never crushed Butler on the post, or any other defender he's ever faced.

In your data, Lebron posted up 261 times in 2014 (261/77 = 3.3 times per game) and 153 times in 2015 (153/69 = 2.2 times per game, which was 8.6% of his possessions).

So Lebron posts up 2-3 times per game and less than 10% of the time, proving my point that he never posts up.. Not only does Lebron hardly ever post-up - but remember - posting up isn't as efficient nowadays as screen-roll/drive-and-kick, so no coach would put Lebron on the post anyway for any extended period of time.. It simply NEVER happens in today's game and never would.

Again, if MJ guarded Lebron, Lebron would let MJ off the hook by never posting, just like he did Butler and Paul George for that matter.. Lebron would play on the perimeter like he always does, which would allow MJ to guard Lebron ALL GAME - meanwhile, coach would have to take Lebron OFF of Jordan because Lebron is too big to chase MJ around.

Dude, did you not see my posts? He posted up from 12-15% of the time scoring an average of 1.08 PPP on a 3 year sample

Rocketswin2013

09-27-2015, 03:07 PM

This game against the Grizzlies is a prime example of what I'm talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Ki5RBTxHo

The Grizzlies start out by putting 6'8" 250 pound James Johnson on LeBron but LeBron shot right over him and got by a couple times.

Then they move 6'4' 215 pound Tony Allen on him and LeBron immediately passes it out and moves into the post and destroys him several times. They decided to double him and trap, and even put Ed Davis on him.

LeBron would destroy Jordan on the low-block if he were just left on an island without help(and in Allen's case, even a double team didn't help him).

3ball

09-27-2015, 03:09 PM

Dude, did you not see my posts? He posted up from 12-15% of the time scoring an average of 1.08 PPP on a 3 year sample
In your data, Lebron posted up 261 times in 2014 (261/77 = 3.3 times per game) and 153 times in 2015 (153/69 = 2.2 times per game, which was 8.6% of his possessions).

Posting up 10% of the time is nothing... It's a fact that Lebron has virtually never had a big game from the post.. Ever.. He simply isn't a post player.

If MJ guarded Lebron, Lebron would let MJ off the hook by never posting, just like he did Butler and virtually every defender he's ever faced.. Lebron would play on the perimeter like he always does, which would allow MJ to guard Lebron ALL GAME - meanwhile, coach would have to take Lebron OFF of Jordan because Lebron is too big to chase MJ around.

DavisIsMyUniBro

09-27-2015, 03:10 PM

Lebron has never posted up more than 10% of the time!!!!

How does that make him a good post player?... He's NEVER had a big game from the post, EVER... Quit being delusional and acting like Lebron is a post player - he isn't, and the stats show he almost never posts up.

If MJ guarded Lebron, Lebron would let MJ off the hook by never posting, just like he did Butler and virtually ever defender he's ever faced.. Lebron would play on the perimeter like he always does, which would allow MJ to guard Lebron ALL GAME - meanwhile, coach would have to take Lebron OFF of Jordan because Lebron is too big to chase MJ around.
.

2011-12 13.9%
2012-13 11.9%
2013-14 16.2%

#Frequency Vibrations

(scored 1.08ppp on the sample overall)

I really dont understand that off-ball arguement. Lebron at his peak defensively was far from not explosive.

using 2015, where he lost somewhere around 20 pounds, for his post game, is not a good example.

DavisIsMyUniBro

09-27-2015, 03:13 PM

In your data, Lebron posted up 261 times in 2014 (261/77 = 3.3 times per game) and 153 times in 2015 (153/69 = 2.2 times per game, which was 8.6% of his possessions).

Posting up 10% of the time is nothing... It's a fact that Lebron has virtually never had a big game from the post.. Ever.. He simply isn't a post player.

If MJ guarded Lebron, Lebron would let MJ off the hook by never posting, just like he did Butler and virtually every defender he's ever faced.. Lebron would play on the perimeter like he always does, which would allow MJ to guard Lebron ALL GAME - meanwhile, coach would have to take Lebron OFF of Jordan because Lebron is too big to chase MJ around.

Tell me how thats my data, because I have NEVER seen those numbers.
He posted up from 12-15% of the time, while ranking top 5 in the league... so yeah.

The speed difference is there, but its not like MJ is usain bolt while Lebron is Mark Henry.

the fact remains that Lebron is a very good isolation defender (exceptional in some seasons).

and he held rose, someone who is argueably as explosive as MJ, to 1/15 shooting. going by your logic, Rose should have blown by him every time he had the ball, especially since he was actually blowing by Wade.

(according to PHILA's data, Jordan posted up around 14% of the time)

3ball

09-27-2015, 03:14 PM

2011-12 13.9%
2012-13 11.9%
2013-14 16.2%

#Frequency Vibrations

(scored 1.08ppp on the sample overall)

First of all, the data proves that Lebron barely posts up..

I don't know where you get the idea that 15% post-up rate for a forward is high - IT'S LOW... You're making my point by posting that data.

Second of all, provide the links to your data above, we can verify the data.

3ball

09-27-2015, 03:20 PM

and he held rose, someone who is argueably as explosive as MJ, to 1/15 shooting.

Rose wasn't an off-ball player.

It's the chasing off-ball that would wear Lebron out... You never saw Karl Malone chasing guards off-screens did you?... It's the same thing with MJ - No coach would put Lebron on a high motor, off-ball player who had a quickness advantage like MJ...

I can't remember a time where a guy with a body like Barkley, Malone or Lebron was chasing quicker, off-ball players off screens.. That's probably because no coach would ever do that.. :confusedshrug:
.

DonDadda59

09-27-2015, 03:22 PM

You have no idea what you are talking about. LeBron would throw Jordan into a post-up torture chamber.

LeBron in 2014 was defended by tweeners, big men, and the teams best combination of length and athleticism. He spent more than half his minutes at PF.

His eyes would light up if a 6'6 200 pound guard tried to stop him.

Edit: Jordan is smaller than Butler and George. 6'7" 230, 6'9" 225. Compared to 6'6" 200 pound Jordan. Some of his measurements are as low as 195 pounds.

When Iguodala was in the game, LeBron James shot 38.1 percent from the field, scoring 26 points per 36 minutes with 2.9 turnovers. With Iguodala on the bench, James shot 44 percent, averaging 35 points per 36 minutes with 2.2 turnovers. With Iguodala as the primary defender, opponents shot 37.2 percent overall, and he gave up free throws the same percentage of time (10.8 percent) that he forced a turnover, via Synergy Sports. Those are steller defensive numbers.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25216834/andre-iguodala-wins-2015-nba-finals-mvp

http://i.imgur.com/gZuoQRl.png

His eyes would light up if a 6'6 200 pound guard tried to stop him.

http://i.perezhilton.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/1lebron-james-funny-face-gif.gif

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2260828!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_635/477406642.jpg

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.mandatory.com/media/2013/02/michael-jordan-laughing.gif

Rocketswin2013

09-27-2015, 03:30 PM

Tell me how thats my data, because I have NEVER seen those numbers.
He posted up from 12-15% of the time, while ranking top 5 in the league... so yeah.

The speed difference is there, but its not like MJ is usain bolt while Lebron is Mark Henry.

the fact remains that Lebron is a very good isolation defender (exceptional in some seasons).

and he held rose, someone who is argueably as explosive as MJ, to 1/15 shooting. going by your logic, Rose should have blown by him every time he had the ball, especially since he was actually blowing by Wade.

(according to PHILA's data, Jordan posted up around 14% of the time)
:oldlol:

His arguments are based around Jordan avoiding LeBron in the post.

It's not like NBA 2K where you can put a guard on a PF and the tendencies won't change. LeBron is not lacking in basketball acumen. He would take him in the post until they doubled and would proceed to get hockey assists( something that happened a lot in the 2014 playoffs. He was probably posting up in 25% or more of his possessions).

DavisIsMyUniBro

09-27-2015, 03:32 PM

Rose wasn't an off-ball player.

It's the chasing off-ball that would wear Lebron out... You never saw Karl Malone chasing guards off-screens did you?... It's the same thing with MJ - No coach would put Lebron on a high motor, off-ball player who had a quickness advantage like MJ...

I can't remember a time where a guy with a body like Barkley, Malone or Lebron was chasing quicker, off-ball players off screens.. That's probably because no coach would ever do that.. :confusedshrug:
.

Did you see Karl Malone guard point guards?
Did you see Karl Malone play the pg?

I really do think Barkely and Lebron have the same type of body huh?

Here is basically what you are saying. your entire arguement hinges on Lebron not being fast enough to guard MJ.

Despite him being fast enough to guard/hold his own other players like Rose,
Westbrook, etc.

He also guarded Kobe pretty well, along with Durant, etc.

And yes, Durant does play off-ball.

And yes, im gonna point to that 40 yard dash time again. you know why? because it calculates explosiveness. if not, then we can just use his vertical...

I mean, your entire arguement is him not being explosive.

3ball

09-27-2015, 03:36 PM

:oldlol:

His arguments are based around Jordan avoiding LeBron in the post.

The data shows that Lebron has posted up between 8-16% of his possessions from 2011-2014 - that's very low for a forward, and represents 2-3 post-ups per game.

Are you saying Lebron's 2-3 postups per game would destroy MJ?... Is that what you're saying?

Obviously not.. The reality is that if MJ guarded Lebron, Lebron would let MJ off the hook by never posting, just like virtually every defender he's ever faced.. Lebron's perimeter play would allow MJ to guard Lebron ALL GAME - meanwhile, coach would have to take Lebron OFF of Jordan because Lebron is too big to chase MJ around.

Btw, DonDadda ethered you all a couple posts up... I notice you're conveniently ignoring the truth - no surprise of course - Lebron fans always ignore the truth and make up their own truth.

Rocketswin2013

09-27-2015, 03:45 PM

When Iguodala was in the game, LeBron James shot 38.1 percent from the field, scoring 26 points per 36 minutes with 2.9 turnovers. With Iguodala on the bench, James shot 44 percent, averaging 35 points per 36 minutes with 2.2 turnovers. With Iguodala as the primary defender, opponents shot 37.2 percent overall, and he gave up free throws the same percentage of time (10.8 percent) that he forced a turnover, via Synergy Sports. Those are steller defensive numbers.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/25216834/andre-iguodala-wins-2015-nba-finals-mvp

http://i.imgur.com/gZuoQRl.png

http://i.perezhilton.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/1lebron-james-funny-face-gif.gif

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.2260828!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_635/477406642.jpg

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.mandatory.com/media/2013/02/michael-jordan-laughing.gif
...2015 is an outlier season in the some of the same ways 2011 was. You have 5 years(2009, 2010,2012, 2013,2014) of evidence versus two seasons of him going through drastic weight changes (Gained a ton of weight in 2011, lost a ton in 2015), playing in new, nonstructural, iso heavy offenses with ball-dominant players and sporadic jumper (terrible jumper in 2015, unpredictable in 2011; In 2011 he was elite level from midrange).

So he had no turnaround in 2015 and it took away a lot of his post effectiveness.

If that's not enough, he was going against the WOAT circumstances in those finals.

But go ahead have fun nitpicking. I'm sure 2009 and LeBron and '95 Jordan is a fair comparison.

DavisIsMyUniBro

09-27-2015, 03:48 PM

The data shows that Lebron has posted up between 8-16% of his possessions from 2011-2014 - that's very low for a forward, and represents 2-3 post-ups per game.

Are you saying Lebron's 2-3 postups per game would destroy MJ?... Is that what you're saying?

Obviously not.. The reality is that if MJ guarded Lebron, Lebron would let MJ off the hook by never posting, just like virtually every defender he's ever faced.. Lebron's perimeter play would allow MJ to guard Lebron ALL GAME - meanwhile, coach would have to take Lebron OFF of Jordan because Lebron is too big to chase MJ around.

Btw, DonDadda ethered you all a couple posts up... I notice you're conveniently ignoring the truth - no surprise of course - Lebron fans always ignore the truth and make up their own truth.

The Iggy post? You mean, a post 25 pound weight loss, downhill, etc Lebron?

Like seriously, what? oh, and after game 1, you could kind of tell, Lebron would post up, and Green would use his excellent off-ball defense to cut him off. Lebron was a shadow of his former self in the post this year as well, he scored 0.3ppp less than the year before. so yeah...

I mean, off the top of my head, I can remember 4 or 5 instances where he would have definately made the shot with his extra muscle.

3ball

09-27-2015, 03:50 PM

Did you see Karl Malone guard point guards?

Lebron never guards point guards except that one time against Rose.

Lebron's body is like an Orlando Woolridge or Malone, only a little smaller than those guys - and no coach would ever put those guys, or Lebron on a high-motor, off-ball player with a quickness advantage like MJ...

He also guarded Kobe pretty well, along with Durant, etc.

No he didn't - Durant averaged 31 ppg on 55% in 2012 Finals.. And Lebron can't guard Kobe, the poor man's Jordan.. Kobe has dropped off Lebron repeatedly and has solid stats against Lebron.. You're making my point again, just like when you posted how infrequently Lebron posts.

Also, it's not wise to compare Durant/Kobe to MJ as if they're on the same footing - Kobe/Durant rely on bailout jumpshots far more than MJ.. Otoh, MJ had more effective moves and could overpower defenders in the paint far more than Kobe or Durant ever could, so he didn't need bailout jumpers as often... Furthermore, MJ was far stronger than Kobe or Durant, according to Ron Artest and Magic:

RON ARTEST:

"MJ is the toughest to guard because he's as strong as Lebron, he shoots just as good as Reggie Miller from the midrange, and he's tough... He's a killer out there on the court."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5dXZxj6Zbc&t=0m59s

MAGIC JOHNSON:

"MJ's strength is like a big man's. He's the strongest guard, I'm talking about body-wise, to ever play."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=1m52s
.

Rocketswin2013

09-27-2015, 03:54 PM

A prime LeBron normal circumstances(, There are literal years worth of this) would use his 50 pound advantage over Jordan and cause serious for his opposition. I haven't seen this disputed.

Also, can someone show me any evidence of Jordan attempting to defend an actual big man outside of help defense?

DonDadda59

09-27-2015, 03:57 PM

...2015 is an outlier season in the some of the same ways 2011 was. You have 5 years(2009, 2010,2012, 2013,2014) of evidence versus two seasons of him going through drastic weight changes (Gained a ton of weight in 2011, lost a ton in 2015), playing in new, nonstructural, iso heavy offenses with ball-dominant players and sporadic jumper (terrible jumper in 2015, unpredictable in 2011; In 2011 he was elite level from midrange).

So he had no turnaround in 2015 and it took away a lot of his post effectiveness.

If that's not enough, he was going against the WOAT circumstances in those finals.

But go ahead have fun nitpicking. I'm sure 2009 and LeBron and '95 Jordan is a fair comparison.

So basically PRIME LeBron's eyes light up when he's being guarded by a 6'6" 200 lb player... but only when it's not an 'outlier' season like 2011 or 2015 and the conditions are just perfectly right.

Otherwise he shoots 38.1%, virtually all on isolations, and allows said 6'6" 200 lb player to win Finals MVP.

That sound about right?

The mental gymnastics this man LeBron forces his fans to go through...

http://scalabrinealert.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Disapointed-Michael-Jordan-Headshake.gif

3ball

09-27-2015, 04:02 PM

.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgFWyLRNsGk

The youtube uploader "Nobody Touches Jordan" uploaded all the possessions where Payton guarded MJ in Game 4 (link above) - MJ was doubled on exactly 10 of 20 possessions shown in the video - all 10 double-teams are shown here:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-23-2015/tEZzVL.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-23-2015/u_VLzF.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-23-2015/I9HNOC.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-23-2015/NpOtW3.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-23-2015/_8DMGr.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-23-2015/19zUGW.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-23-2015/rE_8J7.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-23-2015/EH39bA.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-23-2015/sK1KEQ.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-23-2015/GdCC40.gif

[B]By comparison, Lebron was doubled-teamed a TOTAL of 18 times in the entire Finals... Think about that for a second.. Still impressed with his 36 ppg on 39%?

[INDENT][I]"Curry

3ball

09-27-2015, 04:03 PM

Also, can someone show me any evidence of Jordan attempting to defend an actual big man outside of help defense?

During those spurts in the 1991 Finals where Pippen guarded Magic, the matchup for MJ was Vlade Divac (Paxson on Byron Scott)... MJ spent a lot of time guarding Divac in that series.

It's somewhat fascinating how Magic's presence as a big PG and goat passer forced strategic changes on the Bulls... Magic was posting MJ every possession and occasionally, it would result in some momentum for the Lakers... This would prompt Phil to make the switch to Pippen... MJ would guard Divac while Paxson guarded Byron Scott or Teagle.

But then Magic started feeding Divac, and that yielded positive results, which forced Phil to go back to MJ on Magic... Ultimately, MJ did a good enough job on Magic to guard him for 70% of the series (14 of 20 quarters), and prevent the previously-described mismatch dynamic from taking over the series and allowing the Lakers to prevail.
.

DavisIsMyUniBro

09-27-2015, 04:04 PM

Lebron never guards point guards except that one time against Rose.

Lebron's body is like an Orlando Woolridge or Malone, only a little smaller than those guys - and no coach would ever put those guys, or Lebron on a high-motor, off-ball player with a quickness advantage like MJ...

No he didn't - Durant averaged 31 ppg on 55% in 2012 Finals.. And Lebron can't guard Kobe, the poor man's Jordan.. Kobe has dropped off Lebron repeatedly and has solid stats against Lebron.. You're making my point again, just like when you posted how infrequently Lebron posts.

Also, it's not wise to compare Durant/Kobe to MJ as if they're on the same footing - Kobe/Durant rely on bailout jumpshots far more than MJ.. Otoh, MJ had more effective moves and could overpower defenders in the paint far more than Kobe or Durant ever could, so he didn't need bailout jumpers as often... Furthermore, MJ was far stronger than Kobe or Durant, according to Ron Artest and Magic:

RON ARTEST:

"MJ is the toughest to guard because he's as strong as Lebron, he shoots just as good as Reggie Miller from the midrange, and he's tough... He's a killer out there on the court."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5dXZxj6Zbc&t=0m59s

MAGIC JOHNSON:

"MJ's strength is like a big man's. He's the strongest guard, I'm talking about body-wise, to ever play."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=1m52s
.

Sigh.
so, by posting up more than Jordan did, he doesent post up enough?

lol at using player quotes. Im not even a lebron fan you retard.
"body wise" basically implying at his body type.
and here is the difference, if you believe MJ is stronger, STRONGER, than Lebron, at his weight peak, than literally, just no. lol.
But anyway, remember what pippen said? is it true? no.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/miamiheat/post/_/id/19942/lebron-shows-hes-got-everyone-covered

Lebron held kobe to 9/28 shooting when they were matched up against each other.

and I will LAUGH if you bring up lebrons averages against kobe when they are matchup up against each other. considering only 8 shots, and this wasnt exactly peak Lebron.

DonDadda59

09-27-2015, 04:06 PM

Also, it's not wise to compare Durant/Kobe to MJ as if they're on the same footing - Kobe/Durant rely on bailout jumpshots far more than MJ.. Otoh, MJ had more effective moves and could overpower defenders in the paint far more than Kobe or Durant ever could, so he didn't need bailout jumpers as often... Furthermore, MJ was far stronger than Kobe or Durant, according to Ron Artest and Magic:

RON ARTEST:

"MJ is the toughest to guard because he's as strong as Lebron, he shoots just as good as Reggie Miller from the midrange, and he's tough... He's a killer out there on the court."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5dXZxj6Zbc&t=0m59s

MAGIC JOHNSON:

"MJ's strength is like a big man's. He's the strongest guard, I'm talking about body-wise, to ever play."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=1m52s
.

People don't understand how physically strong Jordan was. Everyone who played with/against him says the same thing- he was much, much stronger than you'd expect. Horace Grant mentions this in every interview he does.

Phil said the same thing when he compared the GOAT to Bean:

[INDENT]

DavisIsMyUniBro

09-27-2015, 04:08 PM

So basically PRIME LeBron's eyes light up when he's being guarded by a 6'6" 200 lb player... but only when it's not an 'outlier' season like 2011 or 2015 and the conditions are just perfectly right.

Otherwise he shoots 38.1%, virtually all on isolations, and allows said 6'6" 200 lb player to win Finals MVP.

That sound about right?

The mental gymnastics this man LeBron forces his fans to go through...

http://scalabrinealert.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Disapointed-Michael-Jordan-Headshake.gif

I actually respect you as a poster. You realize the arguement im making isnt that

"OMG LEBRON WOULD WIN FO SURE"

Im saying that it wouldn't be a mismatch against Lebron

(if they went one on one, Jordan would probably win 6-7 times out of 10)

btw, Lebrons prime was 06-13. (maybe 14)

IIRC, Lebron was around 235 pounds-240 pounds when facing Iguadola this year.

He was rumored to be 260-270 pounds at his peak

DonDadda59

09-27-2015, 04:22 PM

I actually respect you as a poster. You realize the arguement im making isnt that

"OMG LEBRON WOULD WIN FO SURE"

Im saying that it would be competitive.

btw, Lebrons prime was 06-13. (maybe 14)

IIRC, Lebron was around 235 pounds-240 pounds when facing Iguadola this year.

He was rumored to be 260-270 pounds at his peak

Michael Jordan at age 35 vs 6'7 260-270 lbs Anthony Mason in the '98 playoffs:

http://media.thehoopdoctors.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/anthony-mason-hornets-rt-float.jpg

http://static.wixstatic.com/media/24f731_9ea871cf1bfe8d8206dad04a619ffeca.jpg_srz_p_ 217_290_75_22_0.50_1.20_0.00_jpg_srz

Game 4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L2_Yp09-As)

Game 5 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJO8yQ7Xxaw)

*Jordan put up 30 PPG on 47% FG that series.

Rocketswin2013

09-27-2015, 04:22 PM

During those spurts in the 1991 Finals where Pippen guarded Magic, the matchup for MJ was Vlade Divac (Paxson on Byron Scott)... MJ spent a lot of time guarding Divac in that series.

It's somewhat fascinating how Magic's presence as a big PG and goat passer forced strategic changes on the Bulls... Magic was posting MJ every possession and occasionally, it would result in some momentum for the Lakers... This would prompt Phil to make the switch to Pippen... MJ would guard Divac while Paxson guarded Byron Scott or Teagle.

But then Magic started feeding Divac, and that yielded positive results, which forced Phil to go back to MJ on Magic... Ultimately, MJ did a good enough job on Magic to guard him for 70% of the series (14 of 20 quarters), and prevent the previously-described mismatch dynamic from taking over the series and allowing the Lakers to prevail.
.
LeBron's weight advantage on Jordan is more than twice as big as Magic's

Magic Johnson was not a big man. He was a small forward with solid size.

Charles Barkley was a big man, Malone was a big man, Am are Stoudemire is a big man. Those are the physiques LeBron was on par with. Magic Magic Johnson was a Paul George or Shane Battier sized player.

Not a hyper explosive power forward with great agility, awareness and skill on the block.

DavisIsMyUniBro

09-27-2015, 04:26 PM

Michael Jordan at age 35 vs 6'7 260-270 lbs Anthony Mason in the '98 playoffs:

http://media.thehoopdoctors.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/anthony-mason-hornets-rt-float.jpg

http://static.wixstatic.com/media/24f731_9ea871cf1bfe8d8206dad04a619ffeca.jpg_srz_p_ 217_290_75_22_0.50_1.20_0.00_jpg_srz

Game 4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L2_Yp09-As)

Game 5 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJO8yQ7Xxaw)

*Jordan put up 30 PPG on 47% FG that series.

Okay.

and?

Im not saying MJ wouldnt get his. hell, im not saying MJ wouldnt win.

Im saying that MJ wouldnt exactly fare better against Lebron than any other player.

Also, I would guess that at his peak defensively, Lebron was a better defender than Anthony Mason.

ppg wise, isnt that below what he averaged in the playoffs overall?

and did they guard each other? or did Mason only guard Jordan.

btw, Mason was listed at 250 pounds in bball reference

thats besides the point though.

(Mason averaged his average numbers agains Jordan, with higher effeciency I think, if Jordan did guard him)

GIF REACTION

09-27-2015, 04:30 PM

Lebron's simply a different animal.

DonDadda59

09-27-2015, 04:50 PM

Okay.

and?

You and your running mate keep bringing up the weight difference. Just infusing some reality here. LeBron's bulging eyes aside, he was completely shut down in 1 on 1 isolation situations by a 6'6" 200 lbs player. On the flip side, a 35 year old Jordan gave a 6'7" 270 lb beast the business.

Also, I would guess that at his peak defensively, Lebron was a better defender than Anthony Mason.

Mason was part of that imposing, athletic, bruising, smart defensive front court of the Knicks in the 90s-

https://cbsnewyork.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/patrick-ewing-charles-oakley-and-anthony-mason.jpg?w=625

I'd say they were equal defensively. Personally, I always thought Bron gets (or should I say got now since his teams have been lower tier on D lately) vastly overrated defensively.

ppg wise, isnt that below what he averaged in the playoffs overall?

Bit lower points, same efficiency.

and did they guard each other? or did Mason only guard Jordan.

Jordan guarded everyone 1-3 in the series, including completely shutting down the PGs for a whole game (as mentioned in the beginning of the first vid). But Pip was mainly on Mason.

btw, Mason was listed at 250 pounds in bball reference

And LeBron is listed at 240.

Rookie year weights is what's listed. Jordan is listed at 195, he was 215-220 in the 90s, as high as 235 during his Wizards years. Mason was 260-270 on the Hornets (and 350 during his last years, RIP).

GIF REACTION

09-27-2015, 04:57 PM

Lebron is 250

He was 275 at his heaviest and most athletic

Lebron has 50 pounds on MJ

And he doesn't lose any athleticism at that size.

DavisIsMyUniBro

09-27-2015, 05:01 PM

You and your running mate keep bringing up the weight difference. Just infusing some reality here. LeBron's bulging eyes aside, he was completely shut down in 1 on 1 isolation situations by a 6'6" 200 lbs player. On the flip side, a 35 year old Jordan gave a 6'7" 270 lb beast the business.

Mason was part of that imposing, athletic, bruising, smart defensive front court of the Knicks in the 90s-

https://cbsnewyork.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/patrick-ewing-charles-oakley-and-anthony-mason.jpg?w=625

I'd say they were equal defensively. Personally, I always thought Bron gets (or should I say got now since his teams have been lower tier on D lately) vastly overrated defensively.

Bit lower points, same efficiency.

Jordan guarded everyone 1-3 in the series, including completely shutting down the PGs for a whole game (as mentioned in the beginning of the first vid). But Pip was mainly on Mason.

Okay then. but the thing is, a heavier, stronger Lebron would have dominated Iggy in the post.

Rookie year weights is what's listed. Jordan is listed at 195, he was 215-220 in the 90s, as high as 235 during his Wizards years. Mason was 260-270 on the Hornets (and 350 during his last years, RIP.

It was rumored that he weighed far more than his listed weight (like Shaq).
when it was 250.
He said he lost around 25 pounds. in the rigors of the nba season, players dypically lose around 10-12 pounds (Davis for example, was at 245 pounds entering this year, went out at 235ish)

The weight arguement is based on offense. Looking at the footage, its plain to see that Lebron would have "powered through" his post up possessions if he had that extra weight. in fact, his decline in the post coincided with his weight loss.

Lebron didnt "power through" iggy because right now I doubt he is much more than 240-ish pounds. 30 extra pounds change that matchup. heavily. (most of the possessions were post ups)
Lebron obviously runs alot more htan Davis.

This holds true, since Lebrons numbers remain about the same against Iguadola throughout his career.

Mason was a good defender. But imo, Lebron is underrated by many on defense, during his peak years. IM GOING TO sleep now, so ill post stats tommorow.

In post ups, he gave up 0.5ppp in 09.

Not only that, but according to most advanced metrics, such as RAPM, his impact on the perimeter in 09 was ungodly.

His off-ball defense is probably better than his on-ball defense tbh.

Jordan was just, well Jordan against Mason.

That being said, while Im not sure if he was always defended by Mason, It seems like Masons teams defended Jordan reasonably well.

about his point average at lower than normal fg%

sdot_thadon

09-27-2015, 07:06 PM

DonDadda59

09-27-2015, 07:17 PM

Damn the thread about mj defending Lebron is still going on about MJ's offense?:rolleyes:
You guys are a trip, Lebron's peak years in the post you couldn't put a small guy on him. He'd score 2 or 3 easy buckets then they'd have to start doubling. Are you cats sure you watch ball?

You really should be asking yourself that question, broseph. This was only a handful of months ago (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR7oP6NmfHQ)

3ball

09-27-2015, 07:29 PM

You really should be asking yourself that question, broseph. This was only a handful of months ago (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR7oP6NmfHQ)
My god.. playground ball at it's finest - the most stat-friendly way to play.. It never wins of course.. Honestly, that's some of the most cringeworthy 1-on-1 I've ever seen... Worse than ball-up.

Good comparison of MJ and Iggy.... Of course, Lebron would have to defend twice the offense output guarding MJ as he did Iggy, which would take energy away from his offense - players have a finite amount of energy - Lebron would be defending MJ twice as often as he defended Iggy, and the lesser energy left for offense means he would've shot worse than 39% or taken much less than 33 fga.
.

3ball

09-27-2015, 07:40 PM

:facepalm

GIF REACTION

09-27-2015, 07:42 PM

Lebron is backing mike up right to the basket

3ball

09-27-2015, 07:42 PM

LeBron's weight advantage on Jordan is more than twice as big as Magic's

Except Magic posted up every possession (just about), while Lebron posts up around 10% of the time, which is 2-3 times per game.

Are you saying MJ wouldn't be able to handle Lebron posting up 2-3 times per game?... Iggy who is 6'6", 207 pounds had no problem with it - Lebron shot 38% against Iggy.

Magic Johnson was not a big man. He was a small forward with solid size.

Magic was a big man - he posted up more than most PF's.

Go watch any footage of him in the halfcourt, since you've obviously never seen him play... You're like a kid 15 years from now who never saw Harden play, but now wants to claim he was a post player - in other words, you sound ridiculous saying Magic didn't play like a big man when anyone who saw him knows he LIVED on the block.

andgar923

09-27-2015, 08:04 PM

Magic KNEW how to use his body and had great footwork and moves.

Bron on the other hand.

Hey Yo

09-27-2015, 08:09 PM

3ball

09-27-2015, 08:12 PM

Anyone?

I'm getting your proof right now.

Hey Yo

09-27-2015, 08:14 PM

Magic KNEW how to use his body and had great footwork and moves.

Bron on the other hand.
Yet he had no mid-range shot/jumpshot, no 3pt shot (until much later) and could barely played defense.

Bron on the other hand.....

Rocketswin2013

09-27-2015, 08:19 PM

Except Magic posted up every possession (just about), while Lebron posts up around 10% of the time, which is 2-3 times per game.

Are you saying MJ wouldn't be able to handle Lebron posting up 2-3 times per game?... Iggy who is 6'6", 207 pounds had no problem with it - Lebron shot 38% against Iggy.

Magic was a big man - he posted up more than most PF's.

Go watch any footage of him in the halfcourt, since you've obviously never seen him play... You're like a kid 15 years from now who never saw Harden play, but now wants to claim he was a post player - in other words, you sound ridiculous saying Magic didn't play like a big man when anyone who saw him knows he LIVED on the block.
Kobe Bryant posted up more than most modern floor spacing PF's too. Is he a big man? I clearly emphasized physique. Not post-up tendency.

Post-up tendency =/= Big man status.

I said LeBron was a big man because:

1.) His physique and physically tools to play the positions.
2.) He literally played PF for 82% of his minutes in the 2014 regular season, and 87% in the playoffs. Effectively.

LeBron posted up 16.4% of his possessions in 2014, Jordan posted 14.4% of his over a 3 year stretch of his BEST games over that span(Likely the only ones people would even post on the net).

Saying Jordan could stop LeBron at around his physical best, within a structured offense, when he crushed players with more strength, length and post defensive experience than Jordan because of a 6 game stretch against the most stacked defensive team of the era, with him being slight of build(for his own standard) and surrounded by garbage while expended ungodly amounts of energy carrying the offense to just-enough levels is, inane.

I saw a post from DonDadda touting Jordan's weight and him going up against Anthony Mason offensively and correlating it to him stopping LeBron in the post(Which doesn't even make sense, and is worse than saying LeBron could lock Jordan down because he locked down super athletic rose for a few games).

Jordan's weight in his prime peaked at 213 or 214.

In the 1992 off-season he said 213-214 lbs was the heaviest he ever was to that point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViiOHgnQm4w&t=29m40s

June 06, 1992

Early Wednesday morning, Michael Jordan went through his regular game-day routine. After awaking, and before leaving for practice, Jordan went to the weight room for a workout.

"I lift every day," Jordan said. "Before games, it's all upper body, just to maintain the weight that I worked hard in the offseason to gain."

About 12 hours or so before the tipoff of Game 1 of the NBA Finals, Jordan set a personal record by bench-pressing 265 pounds. Then he went to the gym, and began working on his outside shot.

"I go over and shoot and get the rhythm," Jordan said. He got it. Wednesday night, Jordan continued his personal record-setting day by making a career-high six three-point shots, which tied an NBA Finals record.

When you're the best player in the world, that's how you maintain your status. Much is made of Jordan's so-called "natural" talent and his "God-given" gifts. There is no doubt that he is blessed with divine abilities. But he leaves nothing to chance. How many out there figured that Jordan was furiously pumping weights on the day that the championship series began?

"He's really dedicated himself to picking up a couple of pounds and getting stronger," teammate Horace Grant said. "Michael is definitely stronger than he's ever been. He's bigger, and it seems like he's a little faster, if that's possible."

LeBron weight was at around 270 in 2009.

And just how big is James, exactly? Well, that is a matter of intense speculation around the NBA. He came into the league in 2003 weighing 240 pounds and is listed at 250 in this year's media guide, but that number is clearly low. There are whispers that he goes 265; one report recently had him at 274. "He's at least 260, right?" guessed Jackson, who added that D-ing up James is like "guarding a brick wall."

In an attempt to settle the matter last week I brought a scale to my interview with James at a ballroom in San Francisco's St. Regis Hotel. He laughed, but didn't get on. "I can't let everybody know everything about LeBron," said James, who more than any other star understands the value of mystique. He did joke that he'd "gotten fat" -- this from a man with 5% body fat whose raised veins run like tiny interstates up his arms and calves -- then hemmed and hawed before confiding that he had gained eight pounds this summer "even though I was trying to lose 10." That said, a Cavs source puts James's weight "between 265 and 270."

He actually gained a bit more weight and slimmed down his last years with Miami. So my 255 - 260 estimation was about right.

That's at least 40 pounds against a guard who isn't even in that situation enough versus a guy who is the best in the league at it.

This is one of the most ridiculous claims I've ever seen Jordan fans make. Up there with Jordan's Bulls 8-peating. It's one thing to think Jordan would have a good shot against LeBron in this situation(Horrible assumption given so much evidence), but it's another thing to think he would dominate it.

Even Jordan himself doesn't think he can just stop LeBron at the rim.

"So if I have to guard him," Jordan told ESPN's Wright Thompson, "I'm gonna push him left so nine times out of 10, he's gonna shoot a jump shot. If he goes right, he's going to the hole and I can't stop him. So I ain't letting him go right."

Now whether that's him talking on his lateral quickness or just overall strength required to stop him with a full head of steam, I highly doubt he'd feel better about guarding him in the post.

3ball

09-27-2015, 08:35 PM

Rocketswin2013 - if Lebron only posts 10% of the time (which is 2-3 times per game), then who cares how big he is?... If Shaq only posted up 2-3 times per game, MJ could guard him too.

Also, the reality is that Lebron only shot 38% on Iggy, who is 6'6", 207.. Think about it - he shot 38% against Iggy, and he only had to expend HALF the energy guarding Iggy as he would MJ.. With less energy vs. MJ, he'd shoot worse than 38% or take far less fga.

3ball

09-27-2015, 08:36 PM

In the 1991 Finals, MJ guarded Magic for 14 of the 20 quarters (70%) to Pippen's 6 of 20 quarters (30%).

Specifically, Pippen guarded Magic for the 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters of Game 2... the 2nd and 3rd quarters of Game 3... the last 4 minutes of Game 4, and none in Games 1 or 5.. Here's all 5 games in their entirety:

(New links - these links work!!!)

Game 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncUC9fSFdik
Game 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S6AWPT6fG0
Game 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cueGQChyFuU
Game 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO0LJVxaqD0
Game 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCNFQSBUe5c

Can anyone show proof of MJ guarding big men ever?

After MJ picked up his 3rd foul in Game 2 of the 1991 NBA Finals, Phil put Scottie on Magic for the 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters, which helped the Bulls blow the Lakers out - this is articulated here, in the Bulls 1991 Championship video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s

In Game 3, Phil tried putting Pippen on Magic again for the 2nd and 3rd quarters... But this time it didn't work because the Lakers were ready - they pounded the ball into Vlade, who MJ was now guarding, and this yielded positive results, as articulated here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=39m19s

This forced Phil to put MJ back on Magic for the rest of the series - after Game 3, Pippen only guarded Magic for 4 minutes the remainder of the series (the last 4 minutes of Game 4, specifically - this means Pippen only guarded Magic for the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th quarters of Game 2, the 2nd and 3rd quarters of Game 3, the last 4 minutes of Game 4, and none in Games 1 or 5...

Ultimately, MJ did a good enough job on Magic to guard him for 70% of the series - 14 of 20 quarters - and prevent the previously-described mismatch dynamic from taking over the series and allowing the Lakers to prevail.)
.

Da KO King

09-27-2015, 09:01 PM

Using clips of what is now viewed as poor team defense from the Lakers relates to the Jordan vs LeBron conversation how exactly?

sdot_thadon

09-28-2015, 12:15 AM

You really should be asking yourself that question, broseph. This was only a handful of months ago (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR7oP6NmfHQ)
Don, don't do it to yourself again man. This thread is about how Mj would deal with lebron?
Right?
Thought so.

These sucks in here can't say he'd handle him well enough so the conversation switches to MJ's offense, which has shit to do with the thread.
Correct?
Thought so.

You on the other hand, here making a fool out of yourself as a cosigner to dumb shit. Why is it when we speak of Mj we always pull from his absolute best moments yet the comparison, no matter who is pulled from their lesser moments. Reeks of legit.

Rocketswin2013 - if Lebron only posts 10% of the time (which is 2-3 times per game), then who cares how big he is?... If Shaq only posted up 2-3 times per game, MJ could guard him too.

Also, the reality is that Lebron only shot 38% on Iggy, who is 6'6", 207.. Think about it - he shot 38% against Iggy, and he only had to expend HALF the energy guarding Iggy as he would MJ.. With less energy vs. MJ, he'd shoot worse than 38% or take far less fga.
Here, we have a guy who more obviously by the post hasn't watched basketball since the Mj retired. If he did at all then. Dude, you've never watched a heat game when lebron was posting alot? He'd post the weaker man till the defense made an adjustment, which was either doubling or putting someone stronger on him. Then he'd either start hitting the open man from the double, or take the slower big off the dribble. He would never post every possession. No player does, he'd do it enough to make the other team do something about it for sure though.

3ball

09-28-2015, 12:52 AM

These sucks in here can't say he'd handle him well enough so the conversation switches to MJ's offense

Bullshit... DonDadda pointed out that MJ would do better than Iggy, who's 6'6 and 207 pounds, and who held Lebron to 38% shooting in the Finals.

And I've stated a dozen times itt that Lebron wouldn't post up MJ anymore than he posts up anyone else, which is between 8-16% of his possessions the since 2011 (depending on the year), which amounts to 2-4 post-ups per game.

Are you saying MJ couldn't handle Lebron posting up 2-4 times per game, or do as well as Iggy?... If you are, you have no credibility, because obviously, MJ was a better defender than Iggy and he'd have no problem 2-4 post-ups per game from Lebron.

DonDadda59

09-28-2015, 01:36 AM

Don, don't do it to yourself again man. This thread is about how Mj would deal with lebron?
Right?
Thought so.

These sucks in here can't say he'd handle him well enough so the conversation switches to MJ's offense, which has shit to do with the thread.
Correct?
Thought so.

You on the other hand, here making a fool out of yourself as a cosigner to dumb shit. Why is it when we speak of Mj we always pull from his absolute best moments yet the comparison, no matter who is pulled from their lesser moments. Reeks of legit.

Bruh, your cohorts were all over this thread screaming about LeBron's 'eyes lighting up if a 6'6" 200 lbs guard tried to stop him'... a few months after the 6'6" 207 lbs Igoudala did this:

[INDENT][B]Andre Iguodala made his biggest impact in the NBA Finals serving as LeBron James

sportjames23

09-28-2015, 02:24 AM

Lebron is backing mike up right to the basket

And then doing what? Kid doesn't have a post game.

Gileraracer

09-28-2015, 02:27 AM

LeBron would quit after 1 or 2 quarters.

sportjames23

09-28-2015, 02:31 AM

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Bruh, your cohorts were all over this thread screaming about LeBron's 'eyes lighting up if a 6'6" 200 lbs guard tried to stop him'... a few months after the 6'6" 207 lbs Igoudala did this:

[INDENT][B]Andre Iguodala made his biggest impact in the NBA Finals serving as LeBron James

AirFederer

09-28-2015, 02:42 AM

http://media2.giphy.com/media/GH6WCDysNk34c/giphy.gif
:roll:

julizaver

09-28-2015, 04:42 AM

Dumb thread.. In the 1991 Finals, MJ guarded Magic for 14 of the 20 quarters (70%) to Pippen's 6 of 20 quarters (30%).

Specifically, Pippen guarded Magic for the 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters of Game 2... the 2nd and 3rd quarters of Game 3... the last 4 minutes of Game 4, and none in Games 1 or 5.. Here's all 5 games in their entirety:

Game 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncUC9fSFdik
Game 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S6AWPT6fG0
Game 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cueGQChyFuU
Game 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO0LJVxaqD0
Game 5: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCNFQSBUe5c
.

The thread is dump - creating a myth (of how MJ could not handle the bigger Magic, just because Pippen guarded him for some quarters) and then creating a thread.
And again basketball is not an one-on-one game it is a team sport who requires collective efforts and individual sacrifices to achieve the ultimate goal.

andgar923

09-28-2015, 08:06 AM

All MJ has to do is turn off the AC in the building.

And YES MJ is stronger than Bowen, Iggy, Jimmy Butler etc.etc.

OLD MAN KOBE vs Bron

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Tfq3V6C5dA&ab_channel=KentCho

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mk_3qOcixiI&ab_channel=BBALLBREAKDOWN

If OLD MAN KOBE did this to Bron, what do ya'll think MJ would do?

Kobe in his prime isn't as strong as MJ
Kobe in his prime isn't as fast as MJ
Kobe in his prime doesn't jump as high as MJ
Kobe in his prime isn't as good a defender as MJ

Yet OLD MAN KOBE past his prime, shits on him.

andgar923

09-28-2015, 08:22 AM

Speaking of Magic...

A. Magic did NOT shit on MJ, so let's cut the myth that MJ couldn't handle Magic. Magic did get his at times, but MJ did a decent job overall.

B. Magic is a better post player than Bron. He has a better touch around the basket, has better balance, footwork, knows how to use his body to shield players, has a great spin move, is quicker, better handles, has a great hesitation move and has that unstoppable hook.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQqiQp_vWUY&ab_channel=LMCHale

Meanwhile all Bron can really do is lower his shoulder and battle ram his way through.

GIF REACTION

09-28-2015, 08:30 AM

He did

I watched the official Jordan Bulls Threepeat video

The voice over guy said it

"It wasn't until Phil Jackson decided to put Scottie Pippen onto Magic, that the tide started to turn"

sdot_thadon

09-28-2015, 10:11 AM

Bullshit... DonDadda pointed out that MJ would do better than Iggy, who's 6'6 and 207 pounds, and who held Lebron to 38% shooting in the Finals.

And I've stated a dozen times itt that Lebron wouldn't post up MJ anymore than he posts up anyone else, which is between 8-16% of his possessions the since 2011 (depending on the year), which amounts to 2-4 post-ups per game.

Are you saying MJ couldn't handle Lebron posting up 2-4 times per game, or do as well as Iggy?... If you are, you have no credibility, because obviously, MJ was a better defender than Iggy and he'd have no problem 2-4 post-ups per game from Lebron.
And you still won't admit in your rainmain gimmick of using his lesser performances instead of looking at the ones you were scared shit less of. Until you can deal honestly no one will ever really respect what you post, they'll just keep lining up and destroying the same as they have been.

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]Bruh, your cohorts were all over this thread screaming about LeBron's 'eyes lighting up if a 6'6" 200 lbs guard tried to stop him'... a few months after the 6'6" 207 lbs Igoudala did this:

[INDENT][B]Andre Iguodala made his biggest impact in the NBA Finals serving as LeBron James

Hey Yo

09-28-2015, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by DonDadda59
LeBron in his prime shot 35% against a 6'6" 200 lb guard in the finals,
:facepalm

Who else, after finishing their 12th season and 43,000MP later, is/was still considered in their prime?

Any examples that can be compared to LeBron's?

dubeta

09-28-2015, 11:13 AM

Lol didn't Jordan have problems with freaking John Starks??

Wtf is he gonna do with LeBron? :oldlol:

sdot_thadon

09-28-2015, 11:36 AM

:facepalm

Who else, after finishing their 12th season and 43,000MP later, is/was still considered in their prime?

Any examples that can be compared to LeBron's?
Exactly.

DonDadda59

09-28-2015, 11:56 AM

1st off Don you need to drop the little girl shit, you're a grown man. I don't have any "cohorts" here, it's message board not a cheerleading squad like you broads (especially the one cheering you a few posts down) seem to think. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm some part of a team, I just don't feel the way you do. Period.

Back on subject, did Iggy just guard lebron at his best this past finals? Didn't think so, you dudes know this was considered a down year. So why are we going to use that as the comparison? Who ever uses non peak versions for broad comparisons? Unless duly noted? The absolute worse shit about what you're doing here is continuing the same thing after it was brought to your attention, several posters mentioned change in weight and post frequency of this year's lebron. Obviously that would change the conversation, you're just making a conscious choice to be intellectually dishonest.:no:

So that's the LeBron Family's party line, huh? That Lebron at 30 years old was so past his prime that he could only shoot 30% against the 6'6" 207 lbs Andre Iguodala in the finals? Let me guess, it was also an 'outlier' season like 2011 (when he was out of prime then too, right?). Oh, and it was a down year too. OK.

The mental gymnastics this man makes you guys go through. You dudes are basically 4'11 Chinese girls on those balance beams. :roll:

Bron has limited isolation scoring skills, hence him being completely and utterly shut down by a guy he had 2" and 40 lbs on. Watch the tape again (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR7oP6NmfHQ). Pure isolation, clear out, everyone on the other side of the court, 1 on 1 basketball. Look at how clumsy, uncoordinated, stiff/blocky... unskilled this man LeBron is. Let a Karl Malone see a 6'6" 207 lbs guard in the post with no help... he's not shooting 30% that's for damn sure.

:facepalm

Who else, after finishing their 12th season and 43,000MP later, is/was still considered in their prime?

Any examples that can be compared to LeBron's?

Kobe Bean Bryant.

GIF REACTION

09-28-2015, 12:00 PM

MJ only led the playoffs in Box Plus Minus 3 times when he won championships

There were more impactful players during the 2nd threepeat

Lebron has already led BPM in the playoffs for both his championship wins

sdot_thadon

09-28-2015, 12:25 PM

So that's the LeBron Family's party line, huh? That Lebron at 30 years old was so past his prime that he could only shoot 30% against the 6'6" 207 lbs Andre Iguodala in the finals? Let me guess, it was also an 'outlier' season like 2011 (when he was out of prime then too, right?). Oh, and it was a down year too. OK.

The mental gymnastics this man makes you guys go through. You dudes are basically 4'11 Chinese girls on those balance beams. :roll:

Bron has limited isolation scoring skills, hence him being completely and utterly shut down by a guy he had 2" and 40 lbs on. Watch the tape again (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR7oP6NmfHQ). Pure isolation, clear out, everyone on the other side of the court, 1 on 1 basketball. Look at how clumsy, uncoordinated, stiff/blocky... unskilled this man LeBron is. Let a Karl Malone see a 6'6" 207 lbs guard in the post with no help... he's not shooting 30% that's for damn sure.

Kobe Bean Bryant.
Keep on playing the game, I've already outed you. Make a choice. Wanna discuss the topic or want to be on this fake ass cheerleader squad shit you're on?

GIF REACTION

09-28-2015, 12:28 PM

Fun fact: Jordan didn't lead the playoffs in Box Plus Minus during any of the 2nd threepeat

3ball

09-28-2015, 12:48 PM

Keep on playing the game, I've already outed you. Make a choice. Wanna discuss the topic or want to be on this fake ass cheerleader squad shit you're on?
You've been exposed as a close-minded fan that can't see outside his delusional lane.

Your only response after getting destroyed is to say "I didn't really lose, you're a fake cheerleader".

I've just been sitting back with a smile on my face watching the end of your time as a credible poster.

3ball

09-28-2015, 12:49 PM

.
Let's recap one of the bigger ethers in recent ISH history:

Lebron's eyes would light up if a 6'6" 200 lbs guard tried to stop him

(Agreed) These sucks in here can't say he'd handle him well enough so the conversation switches to MJ's offense, which has shit to do with the thread.
Correct?
Thought so.

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]

Bruh, your cohorts were all over this thread screaming about LeBron's 'eyes lighting up if a 6'6" 200 lbs guard tried to stop him'... a few months after the 6'6" 207 lbs Igoudala did this:

[INDENT][B]Andre Iguodala made his biggest impact in the NBA Finals serving as LeBron James

Hey Yo

09-28-2015, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by DonDadda59
Kobe Bean Bryant
Naaa.....considering Kobe didn't even start his first 2 years and didn't have his own team (where the offense was run through him) until 2004-05 ( his 9th season)

GIF REACTION

09-28-2015, 12:52 PM

3ball, why does MJ have a lower Box Plus Minus compared to Lebron?

3ball

09-28-2015, 01:04 PM

3ball, why does MJ have a lower Box Plus Minus compared to Lebron?
idk, why does clyde drexler have a higher one than Kareem?

why does barkley have a higher one than Magic and Bird?

why is Wade's higher than Duncan's and Shaq's and Hakeem's?

And on... and on... and on..

why is eddie jones higher than gary payton?... there are literally a million of these that make no sense.

GIF REACTION

09-28-2015, 01:07 PM

Meltdown

3ball

09-28-2015, 01:11 PM

Otoh, why does Lebron have lower PER, win shares, PPP...............

and

championships

and championship frequency?

Levity

09-28-2015, 01:12 PM

Bran couldn't handle playing without air conditioning.

:lol

GIF REACTION

09-28-2015, 01:20 PM

3ball

09-28-2015, 01:30 PM

Don't be fooled 3ball

Box Plus minus is such a good skill because it looks at the impact an individual has on the scoreboard, in a net weighted plus minus style. It's the best way to accurately determine a players impact on the game.
so why does clyde drexler have a higher box plus minus than Kareem?

why does barkley have a higher one than Magic and Bird?

why is Wade's higher than Duncan's and Shaq's and Hakeem's?

And on... and on... and on..

why is eddie jones higher than gary payton?... there are literally a million of these that make no sense.
.

dubeta

09-28-2015, 01:32 PM

so why does clyde drexler have a box plus minus than Kareem?

why does barkley have a higher one than Magic and Bird?

why is Wade's higher than Duncan's and Shaq's and Hakeem's?

And on... and on... and on..

why is eddie jones higher than gary payton?... there are literally a million of these that make no sense.

Because Barkley, Clyde, and Wade were more impactful :confusedshrug:

DonDadda59

09-28-2015, 01:37 PM

Because Barkley, Clyde, and Wade were more impactful :confusedshrug:

So Bron played with a guy who was more impactful than Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal, and Hakeem Olajuwon... but could only muster 2 rings? :lebronamazed:

Meanwhile, the GOAT clowned those other 2 in the Finals.

Wow.

Thank you, Beta.

GIF REACTION

09-28-2015, 01:40 PM

So Bron played with a guy who was more impactful than Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal, and Hakeem Olajuwon... but could only muster 2 rings? :lebronamazed:

Meanwhile, the GOAT clowned those other 2 in the Finals.

Wow.

Thank you, Beta.
Nope

Wade was past his prime and had knee problems

MJ had 3 of the top 10 all time best supporting casts in NBA history with 2 HOFers, and a really deep bench. MJ never led the impact stats in the 2nd threepeat for the playoffs as there were better players by then

dubeta

09-28-2015, 01:51 PM

Got em Gif!

Me with the lob and Gif with the facial all over DonDadda's ugly face :lol

Paul George 24

09-28-2015, 02:23 PM

That is 2014 LeBron. Why would he guard Jordan?

2014 LeBron played a lot in the post. That was actually his post-up peak. :oldlol:

LeBron was at his lightest since 2010 and still 255 - 260 pounds.

He even had a good(great in the playoffs) jumper. There is no version of Jorda nthat could bother him. NO-ONE bothered him.
AND DAVID WEST DESTROYED HIM :roll:

Paul George 24

09-28-2015, 02:25 PM

Except when he shut down the quickest player in NBA history, prime Derrick Rose
HE DIDN'T :no:

Indian guy

09-28-2015, 02:31 PM

LeBron has career averages of 29/7/7/52% against Iguodala, winning 22 of their 30 match-ups. 24/10/6/47% in a playoff series against Iguodola back in 2011. In Iguodala's 2 All Defensive seasons('12 and '14), LeBron averaged 30/9/7/60% in 6 meetings against him. In the 2 games Kyrie was present against GS this past season, LeBron averaged 43/10/5/52%. So let's stop pretending Iguodala, while a great defender, has any history of success against LeBron.

Yes, when LeBron was stuck with the worst offensive cast in NBA Finals history, had to undertake a ridiculous volume just to keep his team competitive, all at the age of 30 years old against the most successful team in modern NBA history(GS), that ranked #1 on both ends of the court, then yes, Iguodala did manage to force him into a poor %. But what in GOD's name does that mean anyway? How are these 6 games in the most hopeless of circumstances remotely representative of LeBron's true ability as a basketball player? Pretty much any wing in LeBron's position would've shot poorly in the Finals, given the obscene volume because of nonexistent help and the level of competition. To cherry-pick those 6 games and make 'em the be-all-end-all of LeBron's worth as a basketball player is the height of desperation.

And Iguodola's NOT 207 pounds. NBA sites never change players' draft-day/rookie measurements. LeBron's still listed at 240 lbs everywhere for crying out loud. At the 2011 training camp, Iguodola weighed in at 225 pounds. That's the latest I can find anything on his weight. Just looking at him though, he's definitely north of 220 pounds or at least close to it.

Paul George 24

09-28-2015, 02:31 PM

Paul George 24

09-28-2015, 02:32 PM

LeBron has career averages of 29/7/7/52% against Iguodala, winning 22 of their 30 match-ups. 24/10/6/47% in a playoff series against Iguodola back in 2011. In Iguodala's 2 All Defensive seasons('12 and '14), LeBron averaged 30/9/7/60% in 6 meetings against him. In the 2 games Kyrie was present against GS this past season, LeBron averaged 43/10/5/52%. So let's stop pretending Iguodala, while a great defender, has any history of success against LeBron.

When LeBron was stuck with the worst offensive cast in NBA Finals history, had to undertake a ridiculous volume just to keep his team competitive, all at the age of 30 years old against the most successful team in modern NBA history(GS), that ranked #1 on both ends of the court, then yes, Iguodala did manage to force him into a poor %. But what in GOD's name does that mean anyway? How are these 6 games in the most hopeless of circumstances remotely representative of LeBron's true ability as a basketball player? Pretty much any wing in LeBron's position would've shot poorly in the Finals, given the minimal support and the level of competition. To cherry-pick those 6 games and make 'em the be-all-end-all of LeBron's worth as a basketball player is the height of desperation.

KING OF TRAVEL :lol
AND THIS IS THE GUY WHO IS A STUDENT FROM HAKEEM
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-05-2015/65FWzo.gif

Paul George 24

09-28-2015, 02:35 PM

Got em Gif!

Me with the lob and Gif with the facial all over DonDadda's ugly face :lol
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-05-2015/65FWzo.gif
http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-05-2015/Ya6ji4.gif

sdot_thadon

09-28-2015, 10:04 PM

You've been exposed as a close-minded fan that can't see outside his delusional lane.

Your only response after getting destroyed is to say "I didn't really lose, you're a fake cheerleader".

I've just been sitting back with a smile on my face watching the end of your time as a credible poster.
How in the hell can I win or lose some hypothetical conversation when you bums aren't even debating the same thing I am. :biggums:

Oh yeah and you're definitely an authority on credibility with all of your "experience" go ahead and give ish that resume 3ball. You get ran off every forum you touch, multiple times. This bum talking about credibility. :biggums:

LeBron has career averages of 29/7/7/52% against Iguodala, winning 22 of their 30 match-ups. 24/10/6/47% in a playoff series against Iguodola back in 2011. In Iguodala's 2 All Defensive seasons('12 and '14), LeBron averaged 30/9/7/60% in 6 meetings against him. In the 2 games Kyrie was present against GS this past season, LeBron averaged 43/10/5/52%. So let's stop pretending Iguodala, while a great defender, has any history of success against LeBron.

Yes, when LeBron was stuck with the worst offensive cast in NBA Finals history, had to undertake a ridiculous volume just to keep his team competitive, all at the age of 30 years old against the most successful team in modern NBA history(GS), that ranked #1 on both ends of the court, then yes, Iguodala did manage to force him into a poor %. But what in GOD's name does that mean anyway? How are these 6 games in the most hopeless of circumstances remotely representative of LeBron's true ability as a basketball player? Pretty much any wing in LeBron's position would've shot poorly in the Finals, given the obscene volume because of nonexistent help and the level of competition. To cherry-pick those 6 games and make 'em the be-all-end-all of LeBron's worth as a basketball player is the height of desperation.

And Iguodola's NOT 207 pounds. NBA sites never change players' draft-day/rookie measurements. LeBron's still listed at 240 lbs everywhere for crying out loud. At the 2011 training camp, Iguodola weighed in at 225 pounds. That's the latest I can find anything on his weight. Just looking at him though, he's definitely north of 220 pounds or at least close to it.
Aaaaaand that's a /thread.