Is 2/6 the high cap of achievement in modern era?

[Straight_Ballin]

Since when did the game of basketball become such a joke that 2/6 is now considered a great finals record? Whatever happened to 6/6 and 5/7 being the accepted standard as to what constitutes a winning alpha from a beta?

Now in modern watered down era, 2/6 is considered great!

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

So when Bron retires and wiggins goes 1/7, I guess that will be something to strive for. With each passing year the understanding of what is true greatness becomes less and less. :lol

[Marchesk]

No worries, Durant & Westbrook about to reset the bar.

[dubeta]

It's alright bud, its alright....

Relax....

http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz64/Kemisz86/anigif_enhanced-28502-1399325009-6_zpsbut1u18g.gif

[Im so nba'd out]

It's alright bud, its alright....

Relax....

http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz64/Kemisz86/anigif_enhanced-28502-1399325009-6_zpsbut1u18g.gif
:lol the lebron fam wins again

[dubeta]

OP sexually frustrated like MJ walking away from Madonnas hotel room :lol

[Hey Yo]

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oEduZ8RWdW8i4RldK/giphy.gif

[ShaqTwizzle]

While I am not a huge Lebron fan winning 2 titles as the man is impressive.
Of this era only Shaq & Duncan bettered that.
Shaq was obviously the most impressive 3peating as the man which only Jordan & Russell also did.

[3ball]

.
Best excuses for Lebron's losses in Finals


Lebron lost the Finals in 2015 because he couldn't shoot a good percentage at high volume - he's simply bad at the additional 1-on-1 and midrange required of high volume shooters - this is statistical fact, and the resulting poor efficiency at high volume doomed any chance of his team beating the Warriors.. His poor efficiency at high volume is especially conspicuous in light of his single-coverage and the secluded clearouts he enjoyed all series.

Of course, virtually all of Lebron's Finals losses can be attributed his ball-dominance, which prevents his teams from running an equal-opportunity offense, where all 5 players share the playmaking responsibilities - this is the kind of offense that all the teams perceived as "smart" use, such as Mavs, Spurs, 2015 Warriors, and 90's Bulls equal-opportunity triangle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s).. Since Lebron's style prevents equal opportunity and the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented opponents pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

It's not conjecture that Lebron's style prevents equal-opportunity because it's proven by the stats - Lebron's presence craters the APG and assist % of teammates (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841) (Wade, Love, Bosh, Kyrie, Mo Williams), while increasing the amount they are assisted - this proves he turns teammates from playmakers into playfinishers, thus preventing equal-opportunity/sharing the playmaking.. Of course, with Lebron's style decreasing the assists of teammates, it's no surprise that all his TEAMS (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446) have very low assist frequency.

[Straight_Ballin]

OP sexually frustrated like MJ walking away from Madonnas hotel room :lol

Bron walking away from a 4th qtr finals match still got you shook?

[SouBeachTalents]

God damn, 3 LeBron threads in 30 minutes, that's some rent free shit. What Jordan stans like OP and 3ball don't realize is, constantly making threads about LeBron is the highest compliment that can be given to him

[Straight_Ballin]

While I am not a huge Lebron fan winning 2 titles as the man is impressive.
Of this era only Shaq & Duncan bettered that.
Shaq was obviously the most impressive 3peating as the man which only Jordan & Russell also did.

Thank you for proving my point that with each passing era, the bar get's set lower and lower. :lol

Now 2/6 as the man is considered impressive when just 17 years ago winning 6 as the man was "impressive" :lol :lol :lol

[Wade's Rings]

No 3/5 is

http://www.nba.com/media/finals2006/dwade_mvp380.jpg

http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/65/6513/MRS6100Z/posters/dwyane-wade-with-his-two-nba-championship-trophies-game-5-of-the-2012-nba-finals.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YQoloIyBL._SY300_.jpg

[livinglegend]

1-9
Pippen > Baldan

[dubeta]

No 3/5 is




Couldve been 5/5 if Wade actually had a decent off-ball game

[Straight_Ballin]

6/6
5/7
3/5
2/6

[dubeta]

6/6
5/7
3/5
2/6




1-9


Pippen > Kobe > Wade > LeBron > Jordan?

seriously? :lol

[SouBeachTalents]

6/6
5/7
3/5
2/6

I guess we'll just gloss over the fact that they weren't even the best player in the majority of their Finals wins. By this logic

Havlicek 8/8 > Jordan

[Straight_Ballin]

Pippen > Kobe > Wade > LeBron > Jordan?

seriously? :lol

Learn math. The listed are FINAL's win/loss.

6/6 > 5/7 > 3/5 >>>> 2/6

[3ball]

Pippen > Kobe > Wade > LeBron > Jordan?


More delusions - the reality is that today's spacing necessitates gimmick defensive tactics that compromise the defense (i.e. strongside flooding, which doesn't get ball out of ballhandler's hands and leaves weakside a man down - but the move is a necessary gamble, otherwise the spacing gives strongside ballhandlers too much time and room when they have the ball).

Similarly, doubling the post before the ball gets there is an extremely obvious move that leaves someone wide open - it prevents a post player from catching it, but that's only a consideration in today's game because the spacing gives players too much time and room to operate once they catch it... The spacing and further distance of help defenders makes today's post players too dangerous when they catch the ball.

Otoh, when there isn't spacing and help defense is much closer, a team is better off NOT compromising their defense by doubling early and leaving someone wide open.. The lack of spacing made previous eras better-equipped to handle a post player that has the ball.

[Marchesk]

http://idata.over-blog.com/4/92/49/22/Final-Four-2014/Tim-Duncan-NBA-Final-Media-Adress-frJUG4n2uHSl.jpg

[Straight_Ballin]

I guess we'll just gloss over the fact that they weren't even the best player in the majority of their Finals wins. By this logic

Havlicek 8/8 > Jordan

And Havlicek came BEFORE Jordan.

Here's a bit of advice....when you are trying to argue against someone's point, stop posting things that just further reinforce it. With each passing area, the bar for what is considered to be acceptable is lowered. This in combination with the fact that a guy who is just 2/6 even has a following just proves my point to be fact.

Figures that everyone agrees with my sound logic as usual.

[ShaqTwizzle]

Meh.
Spacing may be better today but back in the Jordan days team defense was less advanced and guys just sticking with their own man was much more common.

I was watching a part of the 92 Finals and Jordan who was being single covered led his own defender into one of his own teammates who was completely focused on sticking with his own man and he used him as a screen to get a wide open jumper.
Couldn't do something like that today...

Playing against a defense where everyone sticks to their man makes it easier for an offensive player to control things on that end.

[Straight_Ballin]

OP is 40 years old, sad that the only memories of his favourite player is him getting his father killed over gambling debts

life must suck :lol

Must suck that you never saw Jordan live. Tears do taste good though. :lol


What's it like only being able to be a fan in an era where you didn't get to witness 6/6?

[SouBeachTalents]

And Havlicek came BEFORE Jordan.

Here's a bit of advice....when you are trying to argue against someone's point, stop posting things that just further reinforce it. With each passing area, the bar for what is considered to be acceptable is lowered. This in combination with the fact that a guy who is just 2/6 even has a following just proves my point to be fact.

Figures that everyone agrees with my sound logic as usual.

I don't even care about each era. Saying "5/7" and "3/5" is idiotic when Wade was outplayed by the "2/6" loser in two of his Finals wins, while Kobe was badly outplayed by Shaq in 3 of his Finals wins, including historically so in 2000

[Wade's Rings]

Couldve been 5/5 if Wade actually had a decent off-ball game

True :applause:


I guess we'll just gloss over the fact that they weren't even the best player in the majority of their Finals wins. By this logic

Havlicek 8/8 > Jordan

:biggums:

You'd rather be 2/6 with 2 Finals MVPs or 3/6 with 2 Finals MVPs?

[ShawkFactory]

Being drunk on Tuesday nights is always fun.

[SouBeachTalents]

True :applause:



:biggums:

You'd rather be 2/6 with 2 Finals MVPs or 3/6 with 2 Finals MVPs?

When did I ever say that? In the case of LeBron/Wade, I'd rather be the best player on 2 championship teams than 1, regardless of Finals losses

[Wade's Rings]

When did I ever say that? In the case of LeBron/Wade, I'd rather be the best player on 2 championship teams than 1, regardless of Finals losses

You mentioned being the best player so you must be referring to Finals MVPs. That means you would want 2 Titles over 3?

[dubeta]

You mentioned being the best player so you must be referring to Finals MVPs. That means you would want 2 Titles over 3?

Easily, winning without FMVP means nothing

[3ball]

Playing against a defense where everyone sticks to their man makes it easier for an offensive player to control things on that end.


Except this didn't happen... This is the biggest tell that a poster is both young and never played basketball themselves - so you haven't watched games from previous eras and you don't know what man-to-man defense means.

To make a long story short - since the game was invented, man-to-man defenders have been taught to, and have been legally allowed to play halfway in between their man and the ball, in most situations.

Also, when there's no spacing and all 10 players are bunched up on strongside and/or in paint - help defenders are much CLOSER to help.... This contrasts with today's game where the 10 players are spread out - so help defenders are always further away)... Here's an example of the lack of spacing and resulting closer proximity of help defenders:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s

[Straight_Ballin]

Easily, winning without FMVP means nothing

Losing FVMP to role players means everything. You basically go from a possible top 10 candidate to a beta. If old ass Iggy made bron shoot 29% outside free throw line I can't imagine what Pippen out of his prime would have done. Probably would have made bron retire.

[plowking]

Lebron is the guy on that team that is an absolute beast, you never want to verse, but you have solace in the fact that his teammates aren't that great, and if you do what you game planned for, you should be okay.

At the end of the day, he will destroy you, but you could end up with the win simply based on how poor his teammates are.

Outside of that 2011 shambles, this has been the case every time he has lost in the finals.

[3ball]

At the end of the day, he will destroy you, but you could end up with the win simply based on how poor his teammates are.


Your delusions are amusing.. Here are the reasons Lebron lost each one of his Finals: he lost the 2015 Finals because he couldn't shoot a good percentage at high volume - he's simply bad at the additional 1-on-1 and midrange required of high volume shooters - this is statistical fact, and the resulting poor efficiency at high volume doomed any chance of his team beating the Warriors.. His poor efficiency at high volume is especially conspicuous in light of his single-coverage and the secluded clearouts he enjoyed all series.

Of course, virtually all of Lebron's Finals losses can be attributed his ball-dominance, which prevents his teams from running an equal-opportunity offense, where all 5 players share the playmaking responsibilities - this is the kind of offense that all the teams perceived as "smart" use, such as Mavs, Spurs, 2015 Warriors, and 90's Bulls equal-opportunity triangle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s).. Since Lebron's style prevents equal opportunity and the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented opponents pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

It's not conjecture that Lebron's style prevents equal-opportunity because it's proven by the stats - Lebron's presence craters the APG and assist % of teammates (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841) (Wade, Love, Bosh, Kyrie, Mo Williams), while increasing the amount they are assisted - this proves he turns teammates from playmakers into playfinishers, thus preventing equal-opportunity/sharing the playmaking.. Of course, with Lebron's style decreasing the assists of teammates, it's no surprise that all his TEAMS (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446) have very low assist frequency.

[Wade's Rings]

Easily, winning without FMVP means nothing

True :applause:

[sportjames23]

Straight_Ballin straight killin Lebron Family members. :cheers:

[Straight_Ballin]

Straight_Ballin straight killin Lebron Family members. :cheers:

You know I really was hoping that I could go to sleep tonight thinking that maybe I have to try to come up with a rebuttal but it's honestly been too easy as of late. Bron's failures just make it to easy really.

At the end of the day, Lebron got manhandled by role players like Kwahi and Iggy and they won FMVP by single coverage on Lebron. When in the hell did Kobe or Duncan or Jordan get covered by a role player and shut down so badly that the role player won the FMVP? Teammates are irrelevant here. You either are good enough to best a role player that is covering you under single coverage or you aren't. It really is that simple. That is why Lebron James will never be on the same level as those guys. Ring count and finals win/loss ratio is just the tip of the iceberg.

[Asukal]

Lebron is the guy on that team that is an absolute beast, you never want to verse, but you have solace in the fact that his teammates aren't that great, and if you do what you game planned for, you should be okay.

At the end of the day, he will destroy you, but you could end up with the win simply based on how poor his teammates are.

Outside of that 2011 shambles, this has been the case every time he has lost in the finals.

Tell that to Ray Allen. Let's keep acting like Lebron won 2013 by himself, let's forget how shitty he was in the first 5 games of that series. :whatever:

[plowking]

Your delusions are amusing.. Here are the reasons Lebron lost each one of his Finals: he lost the 2015 Finals because he couldn't shoot a good percentage at high volume - he's simply bad at the additional 1-on-1 and midrange required of high volume shooters - this is statistical fact, and the resulting poor efficiency at high volume doomed any chance of his team beating the Warriors.. His poor efficiency at high volume is especially conspicuous in light of his single-coverage and the secluded clearouts he enjoyed all series.

So Lebron puts up 36ppg on 40% shooting and he sucks at shooting a good percentage at a high volume, but Jordan puts up 27ppg on 41% and we should praise him since he can't shoot well on normal volume? Dude got straight shut out by Payton and still they managed to win. :oldlol:



It's not conjecture that Lebron's style prevents equal-opportunity because it's proven by the stats - Lebron's presence craters the APG and assist % of teammates (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841) (Wade, Love, Bosh, Kyrie, Mo Williams), while increasing the amount they are assisted - this proves he turns teammates from playmakers into playfinishers, thus preventing equal-opportunity/sharing the playmaking.. Of course, with Lebron's style decreasing the assists of teammates, it's no surprise that all his TEAMS (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446) have very low assist frequency.

A lot of incorrect information here. MJ still has the highest usage rate, comfortably out of any player ever, hence the ball always had to go through his hands, and yet doesn't put up the assists Bron does... Usage essentially gives us an indicator of how many times you touch the ball, and how much opportunity you have to rack up stats.

Bron's second guy in charge Kyrie, puts up a 26.2% usage, while Scottie never got close to that with MJ.

So, you're wrong, as usual.

[LBJFTW]

You know I really was hoping that I could go to sleep tonight thinking that maybe I have to try to come up with a rebuttal but it's honestly been too easy as of late. Bron's failures just make it to easy really.

At the end of the day, Lebron got manhandled by role players like Kwahi and Iggy and they won FMVP by single coverage on Lebron. When in the hell did Kobe or Duncan or Jordan get covered by a role player and shut down so badly that the role player won the FMVP? Teammates are irrelevant here. You either are good enough to best a role player that is covering you under single coverage or you aren't. It really is that simple. That is why Lebron James will never be on the same level as those guys. Ring count and finals win/loss ratio is just the tip of the iceberg.

You know when you put it like that, it really is that simple. I never saw that happen to Kobe or Duncan. Couldn't happen to MJ cause he was 6/6 with FMVP. I don't think anyone ever for one second thought to themselves "oh Jordan is in the finals...there's a chance he might not win and get FMVP". The thought honestly never entered anyone's mind

[plowking]

Tell that to Ray Allen. Let's keep acting like Lebron won 2013 by himself, let's forget how shitty he was in the first 5 games of that series. :whatever:

He had 3 bad games that series, and I'm not the one arguing Bron won by himself.

What exactly was the point of this post?

[dubeta]

So Lebron puts up 36ppg on 40% shooting and he sucks at shooting a good percentage at a high volume, but Jordan puts up 27ppg on 41% and we should praise him since he can't shoot well on normal volume? Dude got straight shut out by Payton and still they managed to win. :oldlol:




A lot of incorrect information here. MJ still has the highest usage rate, comfortably out of any player ever, hence the ball always had to go through his hands, and yet doesn't put up the assists Bron does... Usage essentially gives us an indicator of how many times you touch the ball, and how much opportunity you have to rack up stats.

Bron's second guy in charge Kyrie, puts up a 26.2% usage, while Scottie never got close to that with MJ.

So, you're wrong, as usual.


Ether.


LeBrons poor efficiency is similar to Kobes and MJs average finals efficiency


ie. a poor finals for LeBron is = an average MJ finals

[SouBeachTalents]

Ether.


LeBrons poor efficiency is similar to Kobes and MJs average finals efficiency


ie. a poor finals for LeBron is = an average MJ finals

Jordan's Finals average (34/6/6 49%) is better than any Finals LeBron has ever had

[plowking]

At the end of the day, Lebron got manhandled by role players like Kwahi and Iggy and they won FMVP by single coverage on Lebron. When in the hell did Kobe or Duncan or Jordan get covered by a role player and shut down so badly that the role player won the FMVP? Teammates are irrelevant here. You either are good enough to best a role player that is covering you under single coverage or you aren't.

Kwahi and Iggy held Bron to a combined 32/10.5/7 on 48% shooting.

Meanwhile, Jordan got held to 27/5/4 on 39.8% shooting by Gary Payton, a guy 3 inches shorter than him on single coverage. Also held him to 5-19 in the closeout game, which the Bulls still somehow dominated and won in double digits.

Teammates don't matter though.

[dubeta]

Jordan's Finals average (34/6/6 49%) is better than any Finals LeBron has ever had

Except Jordans average Finals team had a substantially lower defensive ratings than the team LeBron faced


LOL do you realize the Pheonix team Jordan faced were WOAT tier defense?


Combined with the faster pace, theres no wonder Jordans points are higher



Worse average team defense + Faster pace = more point totals


But.. LeBron averages 10 rebounds and 8 assists to go along with his 26-27 points



Overall they are close, and if you remove LeBrons 2007 Finals as a 22 year old kid with 0 help, you could argue LeBron is > Jordan as a Finals performer relative to the team defense they are facing

[SouBeachTalents]

Kwahi and Iggy held Bron to a combined 32/10.5/7 on 48% shooting.

Meanwhile, Jordan got held to 27/5/4 on 39.8% shooting by Gary Payton, a guy 3 inches shorter than him on single coverage. Also held him to 5-19 in the closeout game, which the Bulls still somehow dominated and won in double digits.

Teammates don't matter though.

I agree with your points about Jordan's '96 Finals, and how he put up significantly worse numbers than LeBron's in '14 & '15 and was still able to win. But you can't really compare Kawhi and especially Iggy to Payton, who besides Pippen was arguably the GOAT perimeter defender

[dubeta]

I agree with your points about Jordan's '96 Finals, and how he put up significantly worse numbers than LeBron's in '14 & '15 and was still able to win. But you can't really compare Kawhi and especially Iggy to Payton, who besides Pippen was arguably the GOAT perimeter defender

So a 6'4 Payton would do a better job on LeBron than a 6'7 Kawhi or Iggy?

[dubeta]

Except Jordans average Finals team had a substantially lower defensive ratings than the team LeBron faced


LOL do you realize the Pheonix team Jordan faced were WOAT tier defense?


Combined with the faster pace, theres no wonder Jordans points are higher



Worse average team defense + Faster pace = more point totals


But.. LeBron averages 10 rebounds and 8 assists to go along with his 26-27 points



Overall they are close, and if you remove LeBrons 2007 Finals as a 22 year old kid with 0 help, you could argue LeBron is > Jordan as a Finals performer relative to the team defense they are facing

This is the key to the LeBron/Jordan debate


you're welcome

[SouBeachTalents]

So a 6'4 Payton would do a better job on LeBron than a 6'7 Kawhi or Iggy?

Would Kawhi or Iggy do as good a job on Jordan than peak Payton?

[plowking]

I agree with your points about Jordan's '96 Finals, and how he put up significantly worse numbers than LeBron's in '14 & '15 and was still able to win. But you can't really compare Kawhi and especially Iggy to Payton, who besides Pippen was arguably the GOAT perimeter defender

In what way is Kwahi not comparable to Payton or Pippen?
He is a DPOY, and the first perimeter one since Metta World Peace 11 years ago, and before that Payton in 96.
He is every bit the defender they are, and is even more physically capable than either.

You also can't compare having the carry a team without its 2nd and 3rd option to a 72 win team, with options all over the court, the most talented cast assembled, and fully healthy. Or can you?

[plowking]

Would Kawhi or Iggy do as good a job on Jordan than peak Payton?

Kawhi might.

[LBJFTW]

Kwahi and Iggy held Bron to a combined 32/10.5/7 on 48% shooting.

Meanwhile, Jordan got held to 27/5/4 on 39.8% shooting by Gary Payton, a guy 3 inches shorter than him on single coverage. Also held him to 5-19 in the closeout game, which the Bulls still somehow dominated and won in double digits.

Teammates don't matter though.

Straight ballin is right doe. Payton >>> iggy and Kwahi who are both role players and still Jordan didn't lose his FMVP, not even to the glove.

I have yet to see anyone have an answer as to why a "king" loses his FMVP to role players if he is truly that great of a finals performer. I thought that 2/6 would provide enough of a clue as to Bron's inability to win much in a finals matchup but you still need more than that to realize that this guy is no where near Jordan?

[plowking]

Straight ballin is right doe. Payton >>> iggy and Kwahi who are both role players and still Jordan didn't lose his FMVP, not even to the glove.

I have yet to see anyone have an answer as to why a "king" loses his FMVP to role players if he is truly that great of a finals performer. I thought that 2/6 would provide enough of a clue as to Bron's inability to win much in a finals matchup but you still need more than that to realize that this guy is no where near Jordan?

Jordan's team was good enough to carry him when Payton shut him down, preventing anyone from getting FMVP over him.

And Bron is every bit as good as Jordan.

[3ball]

Dude got straight shut out by Payton and still they managed to win. :oldlol:


MJ averaged 32 ppg on 46% thru 3 games to get the Bulls a 3-0 lead and win the series... Then he got 22, 26, and 23 points in garbage time when it didn't matter.. Those are the facts..

You think that Payton guarding MJ from Game 1 would've turned a 3-0 deficit into a win for the Sonics?... Keep dreaming... This kind of delusion is what allows you to think Lebron holds a candle to MJ.
.

[Straight_Ballin]

Jordan's team was good enough to carry him when Payton shut him down, preventing anyone from getting FMVP over him.

And Bron is every bit as good as Jordan.

Why would carried players win FVMP? Curry got carried and did he win FMVP over iggy?

You are comparing the glove to players like iggy and Kwahi who are role players. Payton was a much much better defender and he hand checked Jordan the whole game and Jordan was also double covered.

Kwahi and Iggy are roll players and they dominated bron with single coverage.

Bron is vastly inferior to Jordan, especially in the finals and the proof is that Bron lost 2 FMVPs to role players. I was really hoping for a better discussion but looks like the point still stands that 2/6 is the new 6/6 by today's standards.

Can someone actually refute my point or is this the best the bron fan has for me?

[catch24]

Apparently basketball is now tennis, boxing and golf - individual competition. I mean, people here are legit equating team achievements with individual ones. :confusedshrug:

[red1]

Apparently basketball is now tennis, boxing and golf - individual competition. I mean, people here are legit equating team achievements with individual ones. :confusedshrug:
:applause: Well said.

[plowking]

How did Bron lost FMVP to a role player? He wasn't the one on the winning team.

If anything, he almost became the 2nd player to win FMVP on a losing team.

[catch24]

:applause: Well said.

Yup. I see a lot of Jordan fans bringing up the 2/6 nonsense, but they wanna run away from their boy's 1-9 record without Pippen.

Subscribing to OP's logic, you can't have it both ways. :hammerhead:

[3ball]

:facepalm :facepalm

[3ball]

MJ has higher usage, yet he doesn't put up the assists Bron does.


MJ's usage is 33% and Lebron's is 32%, yet MJ scores 20% and 45% more (in playoffs and Finals, respectively), with only 1 less APG in the playoffs.. MJ gets about the same assists as Lebron, even though Lebron employs a ball-dominant style designed to accumulate stats more than win.. But the argument wasn't about MJ or Lebron's personal assist averages - it was about how their style of play affects the playmaking and assist rates of their teammates..

The statistical reality is that Lebron's presence craters the APG and assist % of teammates (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841) (Wade, Love, Bosh, Kyrie, Mo Williams), while increasing the amount they are assisted.. This proves he turns teammates from playmakers into playfinishers, thus preventing his team from running an equal-opportunity offense where all 5 players share the playmaking responsibilities.

Equal-opportunity is the kind of offense that teams perceived as "smart" use, such as Mavs, Spurs, 2015 Warriors, and 90's Bulls equal-opportunity triangle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s).. Since Lebron's style prevents equal opportunity and the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented opponents pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).. Of course, with Lebron's style decreasing the assists of teammates, it's no surprise that all his TEAMS (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446) have very low assist frequency.

[Straight_Ballin]

Apparently basketball is now tennis, boxing and golf - individual competition. I mean, people here are legit equating team achievements with individual ones. :confusedshrug:

The Bulls with a 72-10 record is the greatest TEAM accomplishment. What a coincidence that the greatest TEAM accomplishment just so happened to have Jordan on it. :lol

[catch24]

The Bulls with a 72-10 record is the greatest TEAM accomplishment. What a coincidence that the greatest TEAM accomplishment just so happened to have Jordan on it. :lol

OK. What happened with the Bulls' success before drafting Scottie Pippen?

[plowking]

The Bulls with a 72-10 record is the greatest TEAM accomplishment. What a coincidence that the greatest TEAM accomplishment just so happened to have Jordan on it. :lol

The greatest team accomplishment is achieved by Bill Russell. 11 rings. No Jordan around.

[plowking]

OK. What happened with the Bulls' success before drafting Scottie Pippen?

:oldlol:

[Straight_Ballin]

OK. What happened with the Bulls' success before drafting Scottie Pippen?

So what your telling me is that the greatest DUO ever is Jordan and Pippen who went 6/6? How shocking that Jordan makes up one half of that duo. I'm really starting to see a common theme here....

[Straight_Ballin]

The greatest team accomplishment is achieved by Bill Russell. 11 rings. No Jordan around.

Wrong. Russell is just one player who didn't have the same roster for those 11 rings. We are talking about team accomplishments here. 72-10 is the greatest TEAM accomplishment. Stop deflecting to Russell because Bron is being exposed.

[dubeta]

So what your telling me is that the greatest DUO ever is Jordan and Pippen who went 6/6? How shocking that Jordan makes up one half of that duo. I'm really starting to see a common theme here....

Except Pippen won the same amount of games without Jordan as well


So maybe in your twisted fantasy it was a equal duo


When in reality



1-9 without Pippen


Same wins without Jordan (55 vs 57 wins)





Seems like it was all Pippen to me

[Straight_Ballin]

Except Pippen won the same amount of games without Jordan as well


So maybe in your twisted fantasy it was a equal duo


When in reality



1-9 without Pippen


Same wins without Jordan (55 vs 57 wins)





Seems like it was all Pippen to me

Wrong again, because if it was all Pippen he would have superior stats than Jordan in all 6 finals series, which he did not.

[catch24]

So what your telling me is that the greatest DUO ever is Jordan and Pippen who went 6/6? How shocking that Jordan makes up one half of that duo. I'm really starting to see a common theme here....

That's not what I asked you.

Don't dodge the question now, homie. :no:

[red1]

OK. What happened with the Bulls' success before drafting Scottie Pippen?
:applause: :roll:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/US_1-9_Truck.svg

[Rocketswin2013]

:applause: :roll:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/US_1-9_Truck.svg
:oldlol:

[dubeta]

:applause: :roll:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/US_1-9_Truck.svg

DAMN

[Straight_Ballin]

That's not what I asked you.

Don't dodge the question now, homie. :no:

So you are going to fault Jordan for not winning as the only star player? What player since Jordan has won it all himself? Bron had to COLLUDE and he still got owned in 2011 like a beta. That's worse than any of Jordan's losses without
Pippen.

All I've see so far from the responses in this thread is that 2/6 is now accepted as greatness which is laughable at best.

[catch24]

So you are going to fault Jordan for not winning as the only star player? What player since Jordan has won it all himself? Bron had to COLLUDE and he still got owned in 2011 like a beta. That's worse than any of Jordan's losses without
Pippen.

All I've see so far from the responses in this thread is that 2/6 is now accepted as greatness which is laughable at best.

I thought Jordan was a one-man show? He needed HOFers and other all-stars?

Wait, 1-9 before Scottie Pippen you say? The way yall talk about him, you would think Jordan won his entire career.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ma628lRwNr1rcg3xpo1_500.gif

[3ball]

I thought Jordan was a one-man show? He needed good teammates?

Wait, 1-9 before Scottie Pippen you say? The way yall talk about him, you would think Jordan won his entire career.


MJ's superior stats prove he had to produce the most to win his championships.. :confusedshrug:

Best stats AND best accolades = goat

Remember, only Wilt and MJ are ranked top 5 in both offense AND defense for big men and non-big men, respectively.
.

[Straight_Ballin]

MJ's superior stats prove he had to produce the most to win his championships.. :confusedshrug:

Best stats AND best accolades = goat

Compare to modern era where 2/6 and losing 2 FMVP to role players constitutes as being "great".

Laughable at best but the tears do taste so goooooood!

[catch24]

So, 2/6 is only convenient for Jordan fans when they get to sweep 1-9 under the rug.

Think I've made my point here. :cheers:

[Straight_Ballin]

So, 2/6 is only convenient for Jordan fans when they get to sweep 1-9 under the rug.

Think I've made my point here. :cheers:

No point was made. You are sweeping 6/6 under the rug while neglecting a laugable 2/6. The fact that you have to reach for 1-9 is hillairious in that this stat was never even mentioned until Lebron was 2/5. It was made by some insecure Bran stan on ISH in a poor effort to justify a colluders 2/5 finals record in comparison to GOAT Jordan. Fast forward a year and we have 2/6. Wanna try for 2/7? :lol

[sportjames23]

Jordan's team was good enough to carry him when Payton shut him down, preventing anyone from getting FMVP over him.

And Bron is every bit as good as Jordan.


LOL at this myth of Payton shutting down MJ.

And LOL even more about Bron even as good as MJ.


plow, you're better than this. Don't drag yourself down to dubeta's level.

[3ball]

If you remove LeBrons 2007 Finals as a 22 year old kid, you could say their Finals performances are equal relative to the defense they were facing


Except MJ faced the Utah Jazz in 1998, who had a lower playoff DRtg (100.3) than anything Lebron has ever faced in the Finals..

Also, MJ never got single coverage like Lebron has most of his career, or the secluded 1-on-1 he enjoyed in the 2015 Finals.

Also, compare MJ and Lebron's performance at age 22 against championship teams and #1 defenses:

Jordan vs. 1986 Celtics: 44/6/6 on 51%
Lebron vs. 2007 Spurs.: 22/7/6 on 35%

[dubeta]

Jordan vs. 1986 Celtics: 44/6/6 on 51%
Lebron vs. 2007 Spurs.: 22/7/6 on 35%

DTAG?

Pace?


Per 100 Stats?


Adjust for minutes?


On face value MJs numbers look nice, but he was far from impactful that series

[3ball]

Also, compare MJ and Lebron's performance at age 22 against championship teams and #1 defenses:

Jordan vs. 1986 Celtics: 44/6/6 on 51%
Lebron vs. 2007 Spurs.: 22/7/6 on 35%




Pace?.. Adjust for minutes


**** pace, and all that - MJ scored literally TWICE as much as Lebron as a 22-year old against a championship team and #1 defense.

TWICE as much... Adjust for pace all you want... MJ still destroys Lebron, as usual.

Also, MJ faced the Utah Jazz in 1998, who had a lower playoff DRtg (100.3) than anything Lebron has ever faced in the Finals..

Of course, MJ never got single coverage like Lebron has most of his career, or the secluded 1-on-1 he enjoyed in the 2015 Finals.

[dubeta]

pace destroys my argument, so does defensive efficiency and overall fg% in that era, so **** it


Thanks for letting us know






And btw, LeBrons 2009 playoff (same age as MJ) had the highest PER in nba history






But again, Its unfair to compare an inferior player in MJ to play to the same expectations as LeBron






MJ got swept in the 1st round, and you're celebrating it, thats how pathetic MJ is, getting swept in the 1st round

[pauk]

No, "2/6" is the high cap of a "stat" pun created by Kobetards for Lebron/Lebrontards..... the logic & ration of this "achievement"/"stat" in general itself doesnt make any sense whatsoever since it literally supports:

"overachieving is not good"
"you shall punish people for almost winning a championship"
"you shall punish people for trying to win a championship"
"its more prestigious to lose earlier than Finals & nobody cares/there is no "x of x in pre-Finals" stat"
"its more prestigious to miss the entire Playoffs & nobody cares/there is no "x of x playoffs" stat"
"this is a one man game, 1vs1, like tennis, no teammates to bottleneck your outcome, hence record like this matters"
"John Havlicek 8/8 > Scottie Pippen 6/6 > Kobe Bryant 5/7, hell Kobe is not even a top 10 player anymore or not even a top 20-30-40 player anymore based on how meaningful this stat seems to be" (but that is the one assumption this logic creates they ignore)

Lebron had only 1 championship/Finals run which he SHOULD/COULD have won and that was in 2011, that is the only one you can spit at with perfect logic as he was way to passive / not agressive at all.... in any of those other Finals i am not sure if any player in NBA history could have won them, better yet GOT to Finals based on what he had to work with & work against (2007 & 2015)....

[sportjames23]

dubeta on meltdown alert :oldlol:

[pauk]

Anybody who uses this "stat" in any way whatsoever is an imbecile / doesnt know basketball or is simply a troll, im sorry (like especially Kennethgriffin).

See, lets take Jordan for example... he is "6/6 in Finals" right? Well, him being 6/8 or 6/10 or 6/15 instead is supposed to be worse right? Him adding either 2 or 4 or 9 more Finals Appearances/Eastern Conference Championship trophies to his resume and many more memorable performances trying to win a championship with scrubs with his never say die instinct..... is worse....... right? he would have been better of missing those playoffs/finals.... right?

I have debunked/explained the stupidity behind this logic since day 1.. everybody knows how stupid it is.... yet its still alive & running for some reason... and it makes us NBA/basketball Fans generally look stupid to any other team sport, all because of one big & stupid fanbase (Kobetards, not Kobe fans, there is a difference)....

[Sarcastic]

So, 2/6 is only convenient for Jordan fans when they get to sweep 1-9 under the rug.

Think I've made my point here. :cheers:


1-9 >>> missing the playoffs entirely for first 2 years.

[Straight_Ballin]

How predictable that a bran stan would use poor logic to negate the importance of X/Y in terms of record in finals appearances.

X/Y means everytime you had a team good enough surrounding you to get to the finals, how many times were you actually successful enough to ensure your team was the victor by being the leader and leading your team to victory?

For Jordan, it was 6/6. Perfection. 6 FMVP.
Bron's finals record is a joke. 2/6, with FMVP losses to role players.

Dude had SIX teams good enough to get him to the finals and he musters up just TWO wins AFTER collusion? That's just plain pathetic Pauk, but you use 2/6 to define greatness.

That's just sad. You probably think 2/7 and 2/8 is better than 2/6 even though Bron himself said this is not the case.

[knicksman]

you know you lack deep knowledge of this game if you cant see the reason for why bran is 2/6. All of the ATG can attract double teams like magnet while bran repels defenders by giving him 6 ft.

[Straight_Ballin]

you know you lack deep knowledge of this game if you cant see the reason for why bran is 2/6. All of the ATG can attract double teams like magnet while bran repels defenders by giving him 6 ft.

And then when Stern tells the coach of the other team to put a role player on Bron like iggy or kwahi on him under single coverage, they shut Bron down so much so that they take his FMVP.

[Asukal]

He had 3 bad games that series, and I'm not the one arguing Bron won by himself.

What exactly was the point of this post?

"At the end of the day, he will destroy you, but you could end up with the win simply based on how poor his teammates are.

Outside of that 2011 shambles, this has been the case every time he has lost in the finals."

Compare the bolded. Your own words you piece of shit. :whatever:

Now you tell us how great lebron was in 2013 coz I remember he sucked prior to Ray's 3.

[lil jahlil]

The sad thing is how many free trips to the Finals LeBron has had. His record in the Finals just shows that he is very beatable when against quality Western teams.

[ISHGoat]

:roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll: