Lebron is actually 2/2.5

[Lebronxrings]

The way i view an actual loss in the finals is if you inserted any other player in history and found they would still lose.

I mean whether you inserted Jordan or Prime Shaq, they would still obviously lose to '7 spurs with the cavs cast, '14 spurs, '15 warriors.

Lebron was kind of underwhelming in the '11 finals maybe to the point he deserves some blame.

Mainly since it was his first year with the heat, i really didn't expect him to beat a stacked mavs team.

Therefore, IMO hes 2/2.5

[ShaqTwizzle]

I think Peak Shaq could have maybe won with the 2015 squad.
I mean once Bogut fouls out it would be like watching a Bull in a China shop.
Shaq is triple the size of everyone else on that GState team.

How would they stop Shaq from just running up to the rim everytime and dunking or getting fouled?
Would be hilarious to watch.
GState would be running around like mad not knowing what to do.

Plus we saw Tristan Thompson looking like Moses Malone out there so you can imagine how Shaq would dominate the offensive boards in such a series.

Plus defensively Shaq would have much more impact.

So yeah it would be an interesting series.
Actually scratch that. They wouldn't have enough ball handling to get it done I think.
Replace Mosgov with a decent ball handler and then maybe.

[3ball]

.
The reasons for Lebron's 4 Finals losses


Lebron lost the Finals in 2015 because he couldn't shoot a good percentage at high volume - it's statistical fact that he's bad at the additional 1-on-1 and midrange required of high volume shooters - the poor efficiency at high volume doomed any chance of his team beating the Warriors and is conspicuous in light of the single-coverage and secluded clearouts he enjoyed all series.

Of course, virtually all of Lebron's Finals losses can be attributed to his ball-dominant style, which prevents his teams from running an equal-opportunity offense, where all 5 players share the playmaking responsibilities - this is the kind of offense that teams perceived as "smart" use, such as Mavs, Spurs, 2015 Warriors, and 90's Bulls equal-opportunity triangle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s).. Since Lebron's style prevents equal opportunity and the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented opponents pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

It's not conjecture that Lebron's style prevents equal-opportunity because it's proven by the stats - Lebron's presence craters the APG and assist % of teammates (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841) (Wade, Love, Bosh, Kyrie, Mo Williams), while increasing the amount they are assisted - this proves he turns teammates from playmakers into playfinishers, thus preventing equal-opportunity/sharing the playmaking.. Of course, with Lebron's style decreasing the assists of teammates, it's no surprise that all his TEAMS (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446) have very low assist frequency.

[3ball]

I think Peak Shaq could have maybe won with the 2015 squad.


Shaq needs an All-NBA guard to win a championship... This is fact based on all the empirical evidence we have.

[Lebronxrings]

.
The reasons for Lebron's 4 Finals losses


Lebron lost the Finals in 2015 because he couldn't shoot a good percentage at high volume - it's statistical fact that he's bad at the additional 1-on-1 and midrange required of high volume shooters - the poor efficiency at high volume doomed any chance of his team beating the Warriors and is conspicuous in light of the single-coverage and secluded clearouts he enjoyed all series.

Of course, virtually all of Lebron's Finals losses can be attributed to his ball-dominant style, which prevents his teams from running an equal-opportunity offense, where all 5 players share the playmaking responsibilities - this is the kind of offense that teams perceived as "smart" use, such as Mavs, Spurs, 2015 Warriors, and 90's Bulls equal-opportunity triangle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s).. Since Lebron's style prevents equal opportunity and the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented opponents pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

It's not conjecture that Lebron's style prevents equal-opportunity because it's proven by the stats - Lebron's presence craters the APG and assist % of teammates (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841) (Wade, Love, Bosh, Kyrie, Mo Williams), while increasing the amount they are assisted - this proves he turns teammates from playmakers into playfinishers, thus preventing equal-opportunity/sharing the playmaking.. Of course, with Lebron's style decreasing the assists of teammates, it's no surprise that all his TEAMS (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446) have very low assist frequency.
so do you honestly, truly believe jordan could win in all those years?

He would beat a duncan, parker, manu with bowen guarding him? With a shitty supporting cast?

What about against a warriors team with delly as his starting pg?

[dubeta]

I think Peak Shaq could have maybe won with the 2015 squad.
I mean once Bogut fouls out it would be like watching a Bull in a China shop.
How would they stop Shaq from just running up to the rim everytime and dunking or getting fouled?

Plus we saw Tristan Thompson looking like Moses Malone out there so you can imagine how Shaq would dominate the offensive boards in such a series.

Plus defensively Shaq would have much more impact.

So yeah it would be an interesting series.
Actually scratch that. They wouldn't have enough ball handling to get it done I think.
Replace Mosgov with a decent ball handler and then maybe.

You know how many times Shaq has gotten swept in the playoffs? :facepalm


He had Penny Hardaway and still got embarassed by Hakeem who had no help in the Finals







Again, you cant just warp Shaq into the finals, he has to first get there. The Bulls had a deeper team than the Cavs, and the Hawks had 4 all-stars to LeBrons 0 all star teammates with HCA. Shaq wont even get into the Finals

[catch24]

Personally, I don't count 2014 or 2015 against LeBron.

He's technically 2/6, but with context, dude gets a pass for those finals (he played well given the circumstances). People give him the "age" excuse for 2007 since the cavs were swept, but at home, they played the Spurs tough. Had LeBron played even remotely average, I think that series goes at least 6. He played terrible, and should be judged accordingly.

Same thing with 2011 obviously.

[Lebronxrings]

I think Peak Shaq could have maybe won with the 2015 squad.
I mean once Bogut fouls out it would be like watching a Bull in a China shop.
Shaq is triple the size of everyone else on that GState team.

How would they stop Shaq from just running up to the rim everytime and dunking or getting fouled?
Would be hilarious to watch.
GState would be running around like mad not knowing what to do.

Plus we saw Tristan Thompson looking like Moses Malone out there so you can imagine how Shaq would dominate the offensive boards in such a series.

Plus defensively Shaq would have much more impact.

So yeah it would be an interesting series.
Actually scratch that. They wouldn't have enough ball handling to get it done I think.
Replace Mosgov with a decent ball handler and then maybe.
They could just double up shaq like they did lebron...

Anyways, shaq makes them worse on defense. Lebron anchors that defense and mozgov was a somewhat ok rim protector.

[Lebronxrings]

Personally, I don't count 2014 or 2015 against LeBron.

He's technically 2/6, but with context, dude gets a pass for those finals (he played well given the circumstances). People give him the "age" excuse for 2007 since the cavs were swept, but at home, they played the Spurs tough. Had LeBron played even remotely average, I think that series goes at least 6. He played terrible, and should be judged accordingly.

Same thing with 2011 obviously.
You expect him to beat a spurs team with THAT cast?

And he deserves some blame in '11. Keep in mind however how wade occasionally choked in big moments and the heat team was finding their identity. They faced a vet dallas team.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Shaq needs an All-NBA guard to win a championship... This is fact based on all the empirical evidence we have.

So you're saying that Jordan needs an all-defensive wing? Pippen was 1st team all-defense from '92-'99, 2nd team in '91.

:confusedshrug:

[ShaqTwizzle]

Shaq needs an All-NBA guard to win a championship... This is fact based on all the empirical evidence we have.

Kobe in the 15 games LAL won (2000 playoffs)
20.3-ppg / 4.5-apg on 52%TS

Whoops I broke your evidence.
Also Shaq didn't play in weak, shitty, garbage conferences.


You know how many times Shaq has gotten swept in the playoffs?
Dubeta my friend I was not trying to insult Lebron.
I just think Shaq would have been an incredible mismatch for that small-ball GState team.


He had Penny Hardaway and still got embarassed by Hakeem who had no help in the Finals

Well I wouldn't agree with that.
Hakeem had Drexler who performed at a comparable level to Penny and he also had Robert Horry who dropped something like 20 / 12 / 4 / 2 and outplayed Horace Grant badly.
Cassell and Smith were fine roleplayers and they dominated Anderson & Scott who were in all honestly chokers.

Hakeem had much better help in that series.
And yet...
G1 woulda been Orlando win if not for Anderson choke
G3 was also down to the wire and Horry hit a 3 right at the end to get the win for Houston.

Shaq outplayed Hakeem over the first 3 games of that series.
Anyone blaming that series loss on him is ignorant.

[catch24]

You expect him to beat a spurs team with THAT cast?

And he deserves some blame in '11. Keep in mind however how wade occasionally choked in big moments and the heat team was finding their identity. They faced a vet dallas team.

lol @ some blame for 2011

And I didn't say that he should've beat the Spurs. I "expected" him to shoot better than ~30%, and not get shutdown by Bruce Bowen.

He was ass in that series, and its only fair to judge him accordingly...

[sd3035]

Lebald is actually 0/6

Ray Allen and the refs gifted him two* titles

[dubeta]

Kobe in the 15 games LAL won (2000 playoffs)
20.3-ppg / 4.5-apg on 52%TS

Whoops I broke your evidence.
Also Shaq didn't play in weak, shitty, garbage conferences.


Dubeta my friend I was not trying to insult Lebron.
I just think Shaq would have been an incredible mismatch for that small-ball GState team.



Well I wouldn't agree with that.
Hakeem had Drexler who performed at a comparable level to Penny and he also had Robert Horry who dropped something like 20 / 12 / 4 / 2 and outplayed Horace Grant badly.
Cassell and Smith were fine roleplayers and they dominated Anderson & Scott who were in all honestly chokers.

Hakeem had much better help in that series.
And yet...
G1 woulda been Orlando win if not for Anderson choke
G3 was also down to the wire and Horry hit a 3 right at the end to get the win for Houston.

Shaq outplayed Hakeem over the first 3 games of that series.
Anyone blaming that series loss on him is ignorant.


Solid points, but again





You cant just warp Shaq into the finals, he has to first get there. The Bulls had a deeper team than the Cavs, and the Hawks had 4 all-stars to LeBrons 0 all star teammates with HCA. Shaq wont even get into the Finals

[ShaqTwizzle]

You cant just warp Shaq into the finals, he has to first get there. The Bulls had a deeper team than the Cavs, and the Hawks had 4 all-stars to LeBrons 0 all star teammates with HCA. Shaq wont even get into the Finals


You might be right but consider that Shaq carried a pretty shitty cast to the Finals in 00 through a tougher conference.

So... you never know.

[FreezingTsmoove]

Lebron lost Game 4 in 07 by 1 point and your going to sit here and tell me if you inserted any other player in NBA history replacing Bran they wouldnt win

Other greats in NBA history have heart, and change their offense when it isnt working

Lebron is all his finals losses lost by a string of consectutive games. Not 1 not 2 but by 3 or 4 straight losses

Beta

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-08-2015/3kNYVY.gif


so do you honestly, truly believe jordan could win in all those years?

He would beat a duncan, parker, manu with bowen guarding him? With a shitty supporting cast?

What about against a warriors team with delly as his starting pg?


Yes - don't bring up Bowen - 35-year old MJ could blow by Bowen with ease (seen above).. You don't realize what a weak defender Bowen would be for MJ - MJ faced far tougher defenders than Bowen... Just look at MJ's stats vs. Rodman or Cooper... His stats would be even better, MUCH better vs. Bowen.

And do you think Lebron would've won the 2015 Finals if he shot 50% instead of 39?... That's your answer for whether MJ would've won.

But most importantly, just by virtue of MJ being an off-ball player, an MJ-led Cavs team would play far more EQUAL-OPPORTUNITY, just like the Warriors and Spurs do, where all 5 guys share the playmaking duties - there isn't any one player consistently pounding the rock... So you know how everyone always marvels at the way the Spurs and Warriors play???... That's how MJ's teams would play - he would get his goat stats WITHIN THAT TYPE OF OFFENSE..

MJ's offense wouldn't look like it does with Lebron, where he pounds the ball for half the shot clock - that method gets figured out every time - the only times Lebron wins like that is when he has sufficient talent to overcome his suboptimal style... Otherwise, teams figure him out, which is why everytime he loses in the Finals, he loses consecutively to close out the series - he lost 4 games in a row in 2007, then 3 games in a row in the other 3 losses, which shows how unadjustable Lebron-ball is - it's simply a far cry from the 5-playmaker, equal-opportunity offense that MJ's game would allow.
.

[Cocaine80s]

He's actually 2/2 if you factor in how bad wade and bosh ****ed him over in 2011

[DoctorP]

2 wins
4 losses

story so far...

[3ball]

That's the difference between MJ and Lebron - Lebron's teammates are subjugated into play-finisher roles - it's a statistical FACT that next to Lebron, their apg and assist % goes down (less playmaking), and their assisted rate goes up (more play-finishing).

This is why talented players like Shumpert and JR Smith play worse than their less-talented counterparts in Patty Mills and Danny Green... But on an MJ-led team, Shumpert and JR Smith would be effective players like Patty Mills and Danny Green are for SA.. Just by virtue of MJ being an off-ball player, his teams play more equal-opportunity, which is why the story was never how his role players underperformed, while that's ALWAYS the story for the ball-dominant Lebron, and the suboptimal style he forces all his teams to employ.

[3ball]

He's actually 2/2 if you factor in how bad wade and bosh ****ed him over in 2011


:kobe:

They caused him to average 17 ppg?... That's pretty delusional.. I can't wait until he loses again - eventually the media will learn that this guy isn't a top 10 all-time player.

The statistical reality is that Lebron's teammates are subjugated into play-finisher roles, thus preventing equal sharing of the play-making (equal-opportunity offense) - alongside Lebron, their apg and assist % goes down (less playmaking), and their assisted rate goes up (more play-finishing).

This is why talented players like Shumpert and JR Smith play worse than their less-talented counterparts in Patty Mills and Danny Green... But on an MJ-led team, Shumpert and JR Smith would be effective players like Patty Mills and Danny Green are for SA.. Just by virtue of MJ being an off-ball player, his teams play more equal-opportunity, which is why the story was never how his role players underperformed, while that's ALWAYS the story for the ball-dominant Lebron, and the suboptimal style he forces all his teams to employ.

[G-train]

I haven't needed maths for 15 years, but can you have a decimal as part of a fraction?

[20Four]

The way i view an actual loss in the finals is if you inserted any other player in history and found they would still lose.

I mean whether you inserted Jordan or Prime Shaq, they would still obviously lose to '7 spurs with the cavs cast, '14 spurs, '15 warriors.

Lebron was kind of underwhelming in the '11 finals maybe to the point he deserves some blame.

Mainly since it was his first year with the heat, i really didn't expect him to beat a stacked mavs team.

Therefore, IMO hes 2/2.5

Do me and all of us a favor....fill up a tub full of water, dip your head 3 times, but only come back up twice

[plowking]

I don't think any player ever inserted in Bron's position beats those Spurs in 14'.

I do think Wilt or Shaq walk away with a win in 2015 against the Warriors. I think a more experienced wing like Jordan, 2013 Bron, Bryant or Wade win in 2007 as well. Bron was just too young there.

[dubeta]

I do think Wilt or Shaq walk away with a win in 2015 against the Warriors.




Again, you cant just warp Shaq into the finals, he has to first get there. The Bulls had a deeper team than the Cavs, and the Hawks had 4 all-stars to LeBrons 0 all star teammates with HCA. Shaq wont even get into the Finals

[3ball]

I don't think any player ever inserted in Bron's position beats those Spurs in 14'.

I do think Wilt or Shaq walk away with a win in 2015 against the Warriors. I think a more experienced wing like Jordan, 2013 Bron, Bryant or Wade win in 2007 as well. Bron was just too young there.
The reality is that ANY top 10 player who shoots 50% against the Warriors in Lebron's shoes wins in 2015.

And 22-year old Jordan wins in 2007 too, not just experienced MJ - just compare MJ and Lebron's stats at 22 years old against championship teams and #1 defenses:

Jordan vs. 86' Celtic: 44/6/6 on 51%
Lebron vs. 07' Spurs: 22/6/7 on 35%

[dubeta]

People give him the "age" excuse for 2007 since the cavs were swept, but at home, they played the Spurs tough. Had LeBron played even remotely average, I think that series goes at least 6. He played terrible, and should be judged accordingly.




Would it be better for LeBron to have instead lost to the Pistons in the ECF, instead of taking that finals loss in 2007?


You can't give LeBron blame for the finals loss in 2007, since No player in NBA History ever made the finals with a roster as bad as LeBrons

[dubeta]

. I think a more experienced wing like Jordan, 2013 Bron, Bryant or Wade win in 2007 as well. Bron was just too young there.


And concerning the second part of your statement

No player in NBA History ever made the finals with a roster as bad as LeBron. Even if you argue MJ, Kobe, or Wade would win in the 2007 finals, None of them would be able to carry that Cavs team to the finals in the first place, so you cant really assume they appear in the finals and win

[3ball]

the Hawks had 4 all-stars... Shaq wont even get into the Finals


Oh come on... The Hawks were obviously garbage - anyone would've beaten them... John Wall's Wizards beat the Hawks or Rose's Bulls.

Btw, don't you wonder why the Spurs fringe D-leaguers like Patty Mills and Green are always crushing it for the Spurs, while Lebron's talented role players like Shumpert and JR Smith frequently suck?... Don't you wonder how this could be the case?... Probably not... You probably don't think about this... You just figure it's coincidence, or that somehow Shumpert and JR Smith aren't talented.

But you should ask yourself - why is the story always how Chalmers, Battier, Shumpert or JR Smith suck so bad, when they are far more talented then many of the Spurs role players, who are always adding value for the Spurs?... Crazy phenomenon huh

[dubeta]

Oh come on... The Hawks were obviously garbage - anyone would've beaten them... John Wall's Wizards beat the Hawks or Rose's Bulls.




WOAT level trolling, your arguments have become predictable now :oldlol:


Bosh is a 10 time all star, yet the Hawks dont get credit for having 4 all-stars?

[Marchesk]

I haven't needed maths for 15 years, but can you have a decimal as part of a fraction?

Google says:

PI/E = 1.15572734979

[3ball]

WOAT level trolling, your arguments have become predictable now :oldlol:


Don't you wonder why the story is always how the Spurs fringe D-leaguers like Patty Mills and Green are always doing so well for the Spurs, but for Lebron's teams, the story is always how his MORE talented role players like Shumpert and JR Smith underperform?... Don't you wonder why this is always the case?

But you should ask yourself - why is the story always how Chalmers, Battier, Shumpert or JR Smith suck so bad, when they are far more talented then many of the Spurs role players, who are always adding value for the Spurs?... Crazy phenomenon... Man, it sure is a mystery... Sure wish I knew what was going on.

[dhsilv]

The way i view an actual loss in the finals is if you inserted any other player in history and found they would still lose.

I mean whether you inserted Jordan or Prime Shaq, they would still obviously lose to '7 spurs with the cavs cast, '14 spurs, '15 warriors.

Lebron was kind of underwhelming in the '11 finals maybe to the point he deserves some blame.

Mainly since it was his first year with the heat, i really didn't expect him to beat a stacked mavs team.

Therefore, IMO hes 2/2.5

Who cares? Rating people on finals record is that of an idiot who doesn't understand the NBA.

[dhsilv]

:kobe:

They caused him to average 17 ppg?... That's pretty delusional.. I can't wait until he loses again - eventually the media will learn that this guy isn't a top 10 all-time player.

The statistical reality is that Lebron's teammates are subjugated into play-finisher roles, thus preventing equal sharing of the play-making (equal-opportunity offense) - alongside Lebron, their apg and assist % goes down (less playmaking), and their assisted rate goes up (more play-finishing).

This is why talented players like Shumpert and JR Smith play worse than their less-talented counterparts in Patty Mills and Danny Green... But on an MJ-led team, Shumpert and JR Smith would be effective players like Patty Mills and Danny Green are for SA.. Just by virtue of MJ being an off-ball player, his teams play more equal-opportunity, which is why the story was never how his role players underperformed, while that's ALWAYS the story for the ball-dominant Lebron, and the suboptimal style he forces all his teams to employ.
.
What is your argument for Lebron not being top 10? Seriously?

Nothing you're posting remotely argues against him being top 10 nor does it even make an reasonable argument about anything.

[Gileraracer]

In other words: You would really like to lick LeBrons anus.

[poido123]

Someone please kill the OP from this site.

[3ball]

.

What is your argument for Lebron not being top 10? Seriously?

Nothing you're posting remotely argues against him being top 10 nor does it even make an reasonable argument about anything.


As you can see, Lebron significantly reduces the assists of his teammates:


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)


Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), .8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'): 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)
Irving apg and assist % with... Lebron (2015):... 5.2, 25.0%


Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN: 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:. 2.2, 10.7%

Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron: 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron: 4.1, 20.1%


Since we know Lebron significantly reduces the assists of this teammates, we know that he doesn't allow equal-opportunity offenses, where all 5 players SHARE the playmaking responsibilities - this is the kind of offense that teams perceived as "smart" use, such as Mavs, Spurs, 2015 Warriors, and 90's Bulls equal-opportunity triangle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s).. Since Lebron's style prevents equal opportunity and the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented opponents pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

Of course, with Lebron's style decreasing the assists of teammates, it's no surprise that all his TEAMS (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446) have very low assist frequency.

Also, the fact that all of Lebron's Finals losses have come by losing 3 or 4 games in succession, underscores the lack of adjustability and easily-solvable nature of Lebron's ball-dominant style, playground style.
.

[kennethgriffin]

The way i view an actual loss in the finals is if you inserted any other player in history and found they would still lose.

I mean whether you inserted Jordan or Prime Shaq, they would still obviously lose to '7 spurs with the cavs cast, '14 spurs, '15 warriors.

Lebron was kind of underwhelming in the '11 finals maybe to the point he deserves some blame.

Mainly since it was his first year with the heat, i really didn't expect him to beat a stacked mavs team.

Therefore, IMO hes 2/2.5


how is this formula correct since each team is built/geared toward that stars position and role


then only similar players with similar roles and similar builds can be instituted into the team as a replacement

and thus giving a distinct disadvantage to anyone else

i.e.

small point guards
shooting guards
non playmaking small forwards
power forwards
centers





this is a flawed way of looking at things.. and not only that. you still lose since i could see

- prime jordan
- prime kobe
- prime shaq
- prime hakeem
- prime kareem


and a few others ... all winning atleast 5 out of 6... with the possibility of upsetting the spurs in 07 and going 6 for 6 IF one of them is at their absolute peak during their hottest stretches





no doubt in my mind a 40ppg 2003 or 2006 entire month level kobe could upset the spurs in 2007


especially considering kobe owns the spurs historically

[Spurs m8]

OP is retarded, this is a new low at clutching at straws.

Its 2/6

Simple.

[kennethgriffin]

OP is retarded, this is a new low at clutching at straws.

Its 2/6

Simple.


the worst part is he lost all the meaningful series and won his only 2 times during a lockout and a bail out


dear lord he's failing

[AnaheimLakers24]

Lebron is actually -5/7
For not making finals and for losing next year

[knicksman]

OP cant count therefore bran stans are now officially the dumbest stans on this board

[ArbitraryWater]

Personally, I don't count 2014 or 2015 against LeBron.

He's technically 2/6, but with context, dude gets a pass for those finals (he played well given the circumstances). People give him the "age" excuse for 2007 since the cavs were swept, but at home, they played the Spurs tough. Had LeBron played even remotely average, I think that series goes at least 6. He played terrible, and should be judged accordingly.

Same thing with 2011 obviously.

On point.

[knicksman]

On point.

As you can see, Lebron significantly reduces the assists of his teammates:


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 6.6, 34.8%
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 4.7, 25.5%


Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 1.6, .8.0%

Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'): 5.8, 33.2
Irving apg and assist % with... Lebron (2015):... 5.2, 25.0%


Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN: 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:. 2.2, 10.7%

Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron: 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron: 4.1, 20.1%


Since we know Lebron significantly reduces the assists of this teammates, we know that he doesn't allow equal-opportunity offenses, where all 5 players SHARE the playmaking responsibilities - this is the kind of offense that teams perceived as "smart" use, such as Mavs, Spurs, 2015 Warriors, and 90's Bulls equal-opportunity triangle.. Since Lebron's style prevents equal opportunity and the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented opponents pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

Of course, with Lebron's style decreasing the assists of teammates, it's no surprise that all his TEAMS have very low assist frequency.

Also, the fact that all of Lebron's Finals losses have come by losing 3 or 4 games in succession, underscores the lack of adjustability and easily-solvable nature of Lebron's ball-dominant style, playground style.

[Lebronxrings]

Don't you wonder why the story is always how the Spurs fringe D-leaguers like Patty Mills and Green are always doing so well for the Spurs, but for Lebron's teams, the story is always how his MORE talented role players like Shumpert and JR Smith underperform?... Don't you wonder why this is always the case?

But you should ask yourself - why is the story always how Chalmers, Battier, Shumpert or JR Smith suck so bad, when they are far more talented then many of the Spurs role players, who are always adding value for the Spurs?... Crazy phenomenon... Man, it sure is a mystery... Sure wish I knew what was going on.
its not like chalmers, battier, shumpert, jr have been great players even without lebron. The spurs excel with shitty players because Pop is a genius and the system requires smarter players. The guys you listed are crap, cant blame lebron for exposing what they are.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

So you're saying that Jordan needs an all-defensive wing? Pippen was 1st team all-defense from '92-'99, 2nd team in '91.

:confusedshrug:

To add to this, Pippen was also all-NBA for 5/6 rings. So Jordan needs an All-NBA, All-Defensive wing to have any shot at winning a ring.

[Lebronxrings]

To add to this, Pippen was also all-NBA for 5/6 rings. So Jordan needs an All-NBA, All-Defensive wing to have any shot at winning a ring.
:lebronamazed: :eek:

[Dbrog]

Spurs are 2/2 for ending would-be long dynasties :rockon:

[Vaniiiia]

He's actually 2/2.

I don't hold 2011 against him the same way I don't hold 2004 against Shaq.

Wade and Kobe effectively sabotaged those series with reckless, cancerous abandon.

Bron is 100%.

lol @ these lunatics who repeat the same "2/6" bullshit as if it means anything. No other player in history gets the Cavs to the championship in 07... let alone wins it all. And he was only 22. 2014? :oldlol:

2015???????!!!!!!!!!!! HAHAHAHA. :rolleyes:

Keep lying to yourselves. Those of us with a sensible mind will keep living in reality.

[dubeta]

He's actually 2/2.

I don't hold 2011 against him the same way I don't hold 2004 against Shaq.

Wade and Kobe effectively sabotaged those series with reckless, cancerous abandon.

Bron is 100%.

lol @ these lunatics who repeat the same "2/6" bullshit as if it means anything. No other player in history gets the Cavs to the championship in 07... let alone wins it all. And he was only 22. 2014? :oldlol:

2015???????!!!!!!!!!!! HAHAHAHA. :rolleyes:

Keep lying to yourselves. Those of us with a sensible mind will keep living in reality.

Ether.

:yaohappy:

[tmacattack33]

Lebron is 2/11 or however long he has been playing.

Which is very good, as basically every other star in the past 20 years besides MJ, Pippen, Shaq, Kobe, Wade, Duncan, Ginobli, and Parker are 1 for 15 or even 0 for 15.

[Mike Armstrong]

Lebald is actually 0/6

Ray Allen and the refs gifted him two* titles
Yarp.

[riseagainst]

or we can just stop making excuses and just face reality. He is 2/6. This is the problem with lebron STANS, they are always making excuses. Just man up, stop being a cry baby. A win is a win, a loss is a loss.

[Sarcastic]

He's actually 1/10. 2013 is the Ray Allen ship. You have to hold 2009 and 2010 against him. Had home court throughout, and lost both times. Then there's the first 2 years when he missed the playoffs entirely.

1/10. Accept it.

[dh144498]

or we can just stop making excuses and just face reality. He is 2/6. This is the problem with lebron STANS, they are always making excuses. Just man up, stop being a cry baby. A win is a win, a loss is a loss.


:applause:

[20Four]

or we can just stop making excuses and just face reality. He is 2/6. This is the problem with lebron STANS, they are always making excuses. Just man up, stop being a cry baby. A win is a win, a loss is a loss.
I dont get my leBRONZE stans keep trying to justify him.....just admit he lost and thats it....why are you guys defending someone who doesn't give 2 shits about you.....if leBRONZE saw all his stans in front of him, he would just walk past all of them without giving 2 shits....

[oh the horror]

These fu*king guys are now rewriting reality and gone off into imagination land where things went down differently than the actual reality that the rest of us reside in.


Have at it fellas

[20Four]

Honestly the only way to stop them from posting if you dont reply to ANY of their threads....

[Lebronxrings]

I dont get my leBRONZE stans keep trying to justify him.....just admit he lost and thats it....why are you guys defending someone who doesn't give 2 shits about you.....if leBRONZE saw all his stans in front of him, he would just walk past all of them without giving 2 shits....
Yea not like u Stan kobe right? U think kobe gives a fk bout u guys?

[dubeta]

Yea not like u Stan kobe right? U think kobe gives a fk bout u guys?


Kobe cares greatly about 20four, how else does he get his McD's on time?


:yaohappy:

[20Four]

Kobe cares greatly about 20four, how else does he get his McD's on time?


:yaohappy:
:facepalm says the one with the idol who is sponsored by McDonalds :facepalm :facepalm

[GrapeApe]

Seriously, why is it so hard to view things individually rather than using blanket absolutes (2/6 et al)? Why not take into account the unique circumstances of each of Lebron's finals appearances? All this 2/6, 2/2.5, 1/9, derpy derp nonsense is out of control. I guess in a way it's human nature to want things to be black and white, but things almost never are. The only finals loss that falls squarely on Lebron's shoulders is 2011, and he gets hammered for it plenty (and deservedly so).

I've said this before and I'll keep repeating it but absolute arguments are stupid. They are simplistic, lazy, often misleading, and only the simple minded resort to them. While they may be factually true, they completely ignore context. Any argument devoid of context is inherently flawed. It's fine to cite a single stat, number, or record within the context of an argument, but an intelligent person never uses a single piece of data AS their argument.

:rant

[CTbasketball92]

The reality is that ANY top 10 player who shoots 50% against the Warriors in Lebron's shoes wins in 2015.

And 22-year old Jordan wins in 2007 too, not just experienced MJ - just compare MJ and Lebron's stats at 22 years old against championship teams and #1 defenses:

Jordan vs. 86' Celtic: 44/6/6 on 51%
Lebron vs. 07' Spurs: 22/6/7 on 35%

The reality is that there's no guarantee that all of those top 10 players get to the finals in the first place. The reality is, Magic wouldnt have bee able to score enough, Shaq couldn't get anyone else involved in the offense and would have to shoot freethrows, Kobe would play well, but wouldve been swept ... etc. All sorts of problems. Didn't Jordan get swept by the celtics that year?

Jordan would not have beaten the spurs 2007 w. that weak cavs team, no way. But yes, MJ is a better player than Lebron.

[bobopenguin]

cool thread bruh. 2/7

[No_Look604]

Wow, you Lebron homos keep cementing the nickname "LeManufactured".

How low can you go?

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Shaq needs an All-NBA guard to win a championship... This is fact based on all the empirical evidence we have.

So Duncan can hypothetically win '07, '11, '14 and '15 since he did in fact win 4 rings with no other All-NBA player based on all the empirical evidence we have.

:pimp:

[LBJFTW]

This thread makes no sense.

Bron is 2/6.

if you have a team good enough to get to the finals and still lose, you were out played. It's that simple. Stop making excuses for him.

[Mr. Jabbar]

the way i see it lebron is 12/6

#KENG

[VIntageNOvel]

this is the same guy who keep saying 6 finals appearance is better than no final at all,
but now, he's 2,5 doe :lol

[kennethgriffin]

any other top 11 nba player all time in lebrons position probably goes 5 for 6



except for maybe wilt

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

To be fair, LeBron is already better than Kobe. His ring count is pretty meaningless here.

[kennethgriffin]

To be fair, LeBron is already better than Kobe. His ring count is pretty meaningless here.


lebrons a better passer and finishes better inside more efficiently i guess

other than that?




Kobe Bryant

inside = 9/10
midrange = 10/10
long range = 8/10
contested = 10/10
handles = 8/10
footwork = 10/10
post up = 10/10
passing = 7/10
rebounding = 8/10 ( for height )
off hand = 10/10
driving = 9/10
defense = 9/10

Overall = 9/10 skills



Lebron james

inside = 10/10
midrange = 5/10
long range = 8/10
contested = 7/10
handles = 6/10
footwork = 3/10
post up = 5/10
passing = 10/10
rebounding = 7/10 ( for height )
off hand = 8/10
driving = 10/10
defense = 7/10

total = 7.1/10 skills





seriously just because a guy whos 6-8, 270 averages 2 more rebounds career than a guy whos 6-5, 205 ...does it really mean theyre some kind of fantastic all around legend

kobes a better rebounder.


so all lebron really has over kobe is passing and layups.. which he stat pads for one. and breaks rules for the other


congrats.

... 2 for 6

[Prime_Shaq]

He's 2/6, deal with it. Nothing wrong with reaching the finals 6 times.

[kennethgriffin]

He's 2/6, deal with it. Nothing wrong with reaching the finals 6 times.


unless you lose most of them

lebrons 1 more finals loss away from the all time record for an MVP

[VIntageNOvel]

He's 2/6, deal with it. Nothing wrong with reaching the finals 6 times.


they shouldve stick to this argument,
instead they let kenneth into their head,
and by making this thread, declaring their loss

[Gileraracer]

LeBron fans so insecure, they have to make up stats that never happened

[JebronLames]

Everyone should count LeBron as having 3 finals MVPs

[Gileraracer]

Everyone should count LeBron as having 3 finals MVPs

We Kung fans do that, but at the same time I am ashamed that he hasn't even won 3 finals yet. :(

[nathanjizzle]

if u replaced lebron with any other superstar, the heat are still winning those 2 playoffs. and by your logic, that would mean lebron is "actually" 0/2.5

[Number22]

If you remove finals losses by replacing a player, do you remove finals wins by replacing him too?

[Lebronxrings]

if u replaced lebron with any other superstar, the heat are still winning those 2 playoffs. and by your logic, that would mean lebron is "actually" 0/2.5


If you remove finals losses by replacing a player, do you remove finals wins by replacing him too?

Neither jordan nor kobe nor shaq, wilt, bird, magic, kareem would beat the '12 thunder and '13 spurs.

[20Four]

Neither jordan nor kobe nor shaq, wilt, bird, magic, kareem would beat the '12 thunder and '13 spurs.
You a peasant....your opinion doesnt matter

[dubeta]

You a peasant....your opinion doesnt matter



Yet if he ever got hurt you'd be wiping his ass

[Lebronxrings]

You a peasant....your opinion doesnt matter
not an opinion its a fact.



I asked for extra ketchup... :facepalm

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Neither jordan nor kobe nor shaq, wilt, bird, magic, kareem would beat the '12 thunder and '13 spurs.

http://i.imgur.com/v6mgbPG.gif

[riseagainst]

http://i.imgur.com/v6mgbPG.gif

:lol