LeBron vs Bird argument officially destroyed

[dubeta]

Career per 100 possession stats

LeBron

36.9 points 9.3 asssists 9.3 rebounds 2.3 steals 1.1 blocks

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html


Bird

30.3 points 7.9 assists 12.5 rebounds 2.2 steals 1.0 blocks

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01.html



Not only does LeBron already put up much better stats than Bird but when you look at it in terms of per 100 possessions the difference is even greater. LeBron is statistically an entire tier above Bird.



lol

rekt :lol

[dubeta]

http://img.michaeljacksonspictures.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/popcorn-blank.gif

[Round Mound]

Lebron is Better Than 88-92 Bird NOT HEALTHY 79-87 Bird.

[Lebron23]

Dubeta, Jeff might ban you. You need to calm down until the start of the 2016 NBA Playoffs.

[dubeta]

Lebron is Better Than 88-92 Bird NOT HEALTHY 79-87 Bird.

Post their stats.

[Gileraracer]

Stop comparing Larry Legend to this flopping Beta.


Bird was a deadly shooter, LeBron can't see the rim beyond 5ft.

[dhsilv]

Career per 100 possession stats

LeBron

36.9 points 9.3 asssists 9.3 rebounds 2.3 steals 1.1 blocks

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html


Bird

30.3 points 7.9 assists 12.5 rebounds 2.2 steals 1.0 blocks

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01.html



Not only does LeBron already put up much better stats than Bird but when you look at it in terms of per 100 possessions the difference is even greater. LeBron is statistically an entire tier above Bird.



lol

rekt :lol

Not really posting any real stats there, a few minor non important deals but anyway. I think lebron is better but man it's close. Bird was a much smarter player, but he didn't have the physical gifts.

[plowking]

Lebron is Better Than 88-92 Bird NOT HEALTHY 79-87 Bird.

Bron is a better basketball player. I don't know how you, out of all people are saying otherwise, considering nearly all of your analysis on players is purely from a statistical standpoint on here.

He just is. He does everything Bird does, but better, outside of rebounding.

He scores more, he is a better passer, better defender, better two way player, etc.

Larry Bird and Earl Monroe were my damn heroes when it came to basketball, who I have countless tapes of, and plenty of footage of, yet I'm not ignorant enough to think that either of them are better than Bron.

Given they have 10 games in a series, I'm sure Bird outplays him 3-5 times himself, but at the end of the day, Bron is a better player. He puts up better stats, playing a similar style of ball, with similar strengths, in a less stat inflated era. Not to mention he is a far more dynamic player on defense, and probably on offense too, which says a lot given how multi faceted Bird was.

[eeeeeebro]

MAYBE bird didnt pad his stats like lebron... i know this BIRD would kill lebron in a game of HORSE anyday

[JT123]

SHAQisGOAT avoiding this thread like the plague :oldlol:

[plowking]

Not really posting any real stats there, a few minor non important deals but anyway. I think lebron is better but man it's close. Bird was a much smarter player, but he didn't have the physical gifts.

Bird doesn't play basketball any "smarter" than most all time greats.

He was just dirty, tactical and aware of what he could get away with. Much in the same way that Stockton or Payton were "smart" players.

[GIF REACTION]

The facts are, statistically Lebron stands up with anyone, including Jordan

Jordan is 40/8/7 on 30 shots per 100 possessions

Lebron is 37/9/9 on 24 shots per 100 possessions

[ProfessorMurder]

Bird doesn't play basketball any "smarter" than most all time greats.

He was just dirty, tactical and aware of what he could get away with. Much in the same way that Stockton or Payton were "smart" players.
Bran is as soft as tissue paper. Bird is far better. Continue letting that tear you up inside.

[GIF REACTION]

Bran is as soft as tissue paper. Bird is far better. Continue letting that tear you up inside.
Yet Bird could barely play for more than a decade before succumbing to injuries whereas Lebron has rarely if ever missed any games, while also playing an extra 179 playoff game over the span of 9 years

Bu bu bu bu

Get wrecked

[kennethgriffin]

3 for 5 > 1.5 for 6


Op destroyed

[1987_Lakers]

I've said this many times, fans don't truly appreciate current legends when comparing them to past legends, it's not until the player is close to retirement that people look and evaluate their career and realize how great the career was. When you really think about it LeBron is just 1 title away from being considered greater than Bird, he will have the longevity edge on him, same amount of rings, & more MVPs.

This is coming from a huge Bird fan too, I love that dude's game with a passion, but chances are LeBron will surpass him by the time he retires.

[retaxis]

Ive watched both players and I know Bird is better then Lebron. For one Bird always stepped up to the game and fought with his heart on his sleeve win or lose. Lebron looked defeated so many times I can not even bloody count and I am a Lebron fan to a degree. Bird wanted to make the shots at the end of the game where as Lebron wanted to draw the defenders for an open shot at the end of the game. If Bird had Lebrons body, Bird would be the GOAT by far.

[Lebron23]

I've said this many times, fans don't truly appreciate current legends when comparing them to past legends, it's not until the player is close to retirement that people look and evaluate their career and realize how great the career was. When you really think about it LeBron is just 1 title away from being considered greater than Bird, he will have the longevity edge on him, same amount of rings, & more MVPs.

This is coming from a huge Bird fan too, I love that dude's game with a passion, but chances are LeBron will surpass him by the time he retires.


Truer words has never been Spoken.


PS:

The Lakers are going to suck this season. I really feel bad for real fans like you, but the Kobe Era is done. They can rebuilt next year.

[Lebron23]

Ive watched both players and I know Bird is better then Lebron. For one Bird always stepped up to the game and fought with his heart on his sleeve win or lose. Lebron looked defeated so many times I can not even bloody count and I am a Lebron fan to a degree. Bird wanted to make the shots at the end of the game where as Lebron wanted to draw the defenders for an open shot at the end of the game. If Bird had Lebrons body, Bird would be the GOAT by far.

2011 is the only time he really struggled in the NBA Finals. Lebron put up better numbers than Bird in the NBA Finals. You cannot blame him in 2014 and 2015. Hie teammates let him down in 2014 while in 2015 his 3 best players were missing.

They were very lucky to win 2 games vs. the Warriors with that kind of supporting casts.

[Round Mound]

Ive watched both players and I know Bird is better then Lebron. For one Bird always stepped up to the game and fought with his heart on his sleeve win or lose. Lebron looked defeated so many times I can not even bloody count and I am a Lebron fan to a degree. Bird wanted to make the shots at the end of the game where as Lebron wanted to draw the defenders for an open shot at the end of the game. If Bird had Lebrons body, Bird would be the GOAT by far.

This :applause:

And BTW. Lebron is NOT a Better Passer...He Gets More Assists But That is Because He is a Better Creator of Offense Cause of his Superior Ballhandling Skills, Velocity and Speed and All He Does Is CHARGE OR DRIVE, GET DOUBLED and PASS TO AN OPEN MAN


Bird Was Far Clutcher, A Better Shooter, A Better Rebounder, A Better Passer (No One Was Better At Half Court or At Stantionary Positions), A Better Post Player, A Better Team Defender, Way More Hustle and More Heart.

Lebron is Better at Ballhandling (only skill over Bird), Driving Capacity, Finishing Capacity and 1 on 1 Perimeter Defense. Basically Just Athletic Capacity. Thats It!

[3ball]

This :applause:

And BTW. Lebron is NOT a Better Passer...He Gets More Assists But That is Because He is a Better Creator of Offense Cause of his Superior Ballhandling Skills, Velocity and Speed.

Bird Was Far Clutcher, A Better Shooter, A Better Rebounder, A Better Passer (No One Was Better At Half Court or At Stantionary Positions), A Better Post Player, A Better Team Defender, Way More Hustle and More Heart.

Lebron is Better at Ballhandling, Driving Capacity, Finishing Capacity and 1 on 1 Perimeter Defense. Thats It!


True, but unlike Bird, Lebron significantly reduces the assists of his teammates:


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)


Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), .8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'): 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)
Irving apg and assist % with... Lebron (2015):... 5.2, 25.0%


Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN: 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:. 2.2, 10.7%

Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron: 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron: 4.1, 20.1%


Since we know Lebron significantly reduces the assists of this teammates, we know that he doesn't allow equal-opportunity offenses, where all 5 players SHARE the playmaking responsibilities - this is the kind of offense that teams perceived as "smart" use, such as Bird's Celtics, Spurs, 2015 Warriors, Mavs, and 90's Bulls equal-opportunity triangle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s).. Since Lebron's style prevents equal opportunity and the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented opponents pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

Of course, with Lebron's style decreasing the assists of teammates, it's no surprise that all his TEAMS (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446) have very low assist frequency.

Also, the fact that all of Lebron's Finals losses have come by losing 3 or 4 games in succession, underscores the lack of adjustability and easily-solvable nature of Lebron's ball-dominant, stat-friendly, rudimentary, playground style.

[Lebron23]

True, but unlike Bird, Lebron significantly reduces the assists of his teammates:


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)


Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), .8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'): 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)
Irving apg and assist % with... Lebron (2015):... 5.2, 25.0%


Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN: 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:. 2.2, 10.7%

Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron: 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron: 4.1, 20.1%


Since we know Lebron significantly reduces the assists of this teammates, we know that he doesn't allow equal-opportunity offenses, where all 5 players SHARE the playmaking responsibilities - this is the kind of offense that teams perceived as "smart" use, such as Bird's Celtics, Spurs, 2015 Warriors, Mavs, and 90's Bulls equal-opportunity triangle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s).. Since Lebron's style prevents equal opportunity and the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented opponents pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

Of course, with Lebron's style decreasing the assists of teammates, it's no surprise that all his TEAMS (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446) have very low assist frequency.

Also, the fact that all of Lebron's Finals losses have come by losing 3 or 4 games in succession, underscores the lack of adjustability and easily-solvable nature of Lebron's ball-dominant, stat-friendly, rudimentary, playground style.


Why are you copy pasting, and deleting your posts?? Are you some kind of mentally handicapped?

[Round Mound]

True, but unlike Bird, Lebron significantly reduces the assists of his teammates:


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)


Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), .8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'): 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)
Irving apg and assist % with... Lebron (2015):... 5.2, 25.0%


Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN: 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:. 2.2, 10.7%

Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron: 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron: 4.1, 20.1%


Since we know Lebron significantly reduces the assists of this teammates, we know that he doesn't allow equal-opportunity offenses, where all 5 players SHARE the playmaking responsibilities - this is the kind of offense that teams perceived as "smart" use, such as Bird's Celtics, Spurs, 2015 Warriors, Mavs, and 90's Bulls equal-opportunity triangle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s).. Since Lebron's style prevents equal opportunity and the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented opponents pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

Of course, with Lebron's style decreasing the assists of teammates, it's no surprise that all his TEAMS (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446) have very low assist frequency.

Also, the fact that all of Lebron's Finals losses have come by losing 3 or 4 games in succession, underscores the lack of adjustability and easily-solvable nature of Lebron's ball-dominant, stat-friendly, rudimentary, playground style.

True...Thats Why I Laugh Out Out Load When a Kid Tells Me Lebron is a Better Passer Than Bird. When All He Does is CHARGER OR DRIVE, GET DOUBLED and PASS TO AN OPEN MAN

Unlike Lebron Bird: Was THE GOD HALF COURT & STATIONARY PASSER!!!

Bird`s Passing Was Way More Crafty!!!

[SpaceJammeR]

True...Thats Why I Laugh Out Out Load When a Kid Tells Me Lebron is a Better Passer Than Bird. When All He Does is CHARGER OR DRIVE, GET DOUBLED and PASS TO AN OPEN MAN

Unlike Lebron Bird: Was THE GOD HALF COURT & STATIONARY PASSER!!!

Bird`s Passing Was Way More Crafty!!!

then you need to watch more lebron highlights.

[kennethgriffin]

the thing about stats is ... theyre subjective to

a) position

b) duties

c) teammates

d) eras

e) coaches

f) minutes

g) contention

h) rules

i) selflessness

j) selfishness

k) skillsets

l) priorities

m) range

n) speed

o) verticality

p) pressure

q) power

r) weight

s) height

t) blowouts

u) resting

v) competition

w) chemistry

x) referees

y) HGH

z) steroids



and not one of these things are the same between the 2 except for them both being listed at small forward. ( while bird played most of his career at power forward and lebron at point )

[HOoopCityJones]

True, but unlike Bird, Lebron significantly reduces the assists of his teammates:


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)


Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), .8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'): 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)
Irving apg and assist % with... Lebron (2015):... 5.2, 25.0%


Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN: 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:. 2.2, 10.7%

Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron: 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron: 4.1, 20.1%


Since we know Lebron significantly reduces the assists of this teammates, we know that he doesn't allow equal-opportunity offenses, where all 5 players SHARE the playmaking responsibilities - this is the kind of offense that teams perceived as "smart" use, such as Bird's Celtics, Spurs, 2015 Warriors, Mavs, and 90's Bulls equal-opportunity triangle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s).. Since Lebron's style prevents equal opportunity and the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented opponents pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

Of course, with Lebron's style decreasing the assists of teammates, it's no surprise that all his TEAMS (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446) have very low assist frequency.

Also, the fact that all of Lebron's Finals losses have come by losing 3 or 4 games in succession, underscores the lack of adjustability and easily-solvable nature of Lebron's ball-dominant, stat-friendly, rudimentary, playground style.


:bowdown:

[3ball]

True...Thats Why I Laugh Out Out Load When a Kid Tells Me Lebron is a Better Passer Than Bird. When All He Does is CHARGER OR DRIVE, GET DOUBLED and PASS TO AN OPEN MAN

Unlike Lebron Bird: Was THE GOD HALF COURT & STATIONARY PASSER!!!

Bird`s Passing Was Way More Crafty!!!


Exactly, Lebron's teams have always had below-average assist levels.. His ball-dominant, point guard style turns a normally high-assisted frontcourt position into a low-assisted one, thus reducing the playmaking capacity of the team - teammates can't throw the their leading scorer and one of their forwards an assist as often as other teams.. The lower playmaking capacity of Lebron's teams limits their strategic options on offense - the team is locked into playing Lebron-ball.

Otoh, when you have a guy like Bird getting 29 ppg off-ball - this is highly optimal.. Playing off-ball and having a high assisted rate MAXIMIZES the play-making capacity of the team and maximizes teammates' opportunity to get an assist - Bird's off-ball game and his goat scoring was a reservoir of playmaking and assist opportunities for teammates.. No wonder his role players never underperformed - his relentless off-ball game made it easier for teammates to playmake, hence the team's higher assist rate and playmaking capacity.
.

[Dr Hawk]

Exactly, Lebron's teams have always had below-average assist levels.. His ball-dominant, point guard style turns a normally high-assisted frontcourt position into a low-assisted one, thus reducing the playmaking capacity of the team - teammates can't throw the their leading scorer an assist as often as other teams.. The lower playmaking capacity of Lebron's teams limits their strategic options on offense - the team is locked into playing Lebron-ball.

Otoh, when you have a guy like Bird getting 30 ppg off-ball - this is highly optimal.. Playing off-ball and having a high assisted rate MAXIMIZES the play-making capacity of the team and maximizes teammates' opportunity to get an assist - Bird's off-ball game and his goat scoring was a reservoir of playmaking and assist opportunities for teammates.. No wonder his role players never underperformed - his relentless off-ball game made it easier for teammates to playmake.


This :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[HOoopCityJones]

3ball fuccing this thread raw dog.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Boil it down

[knicksman]

2011 is the only time he really struggled in the NBA Finals. Lebron put up better numbers than Bird in the NBA Finals. You cannot blame him in 2014 and 2015. Hie teammates let him down in 2014 while in 2015 his 3 best players were missing.

They were very lucky to win 2 games vs. the Warriors with that kind of supporting casts.

As you can see, Lebron significantly reduces the assists of his teammates:


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 6.6, 34.8%
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 4.7, 25.5%


Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 1.6, .8.0%

Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'): 5.8, 33.2
Irving apg and assist % with... Lebron (2015):... 5.2, 25.0%


Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN: 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:. 2.2, 10.7%

Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron: 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron: 4.1, 20.1%


Since we know Lebron significantly reduces the assists of this teammates, we know that he doesn't allow equal-opportunity offenses, where all 5 players SHARE the playmaking responsibilities - this is the kind of offense that teams perceived as "smart" use, such as Mavs, Spurs, 2015 Warriors, and 90's Bulls equal-opportunity triangle.. Since Lebron's style prevents equal opportunity and the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented opponents pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

Of course, with Lebron's style decreasing the assists of teammates, it's no surprise that all his TEAMS have very low assist frequency.

Also, the fact that all of Lebron's Finals losses have come by losing 3 or 4 games in succession, underscores the lack of adjustability and easily-solvable nature of Lebron's ball-dominant style, playground style.

[Lebron23]

As you can see, Lebron significantly reduces the assists of his teammates:


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 6.6, 34.8%
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 4.7, 25.5%


Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 1.6, .8.0%

Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'): 5.8, 33.2
Irving apg and assist % with... Lebron (2015):... 5.2, 25.0%


Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN: 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:. 2.2, 10.7%

Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron: 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron: 4.1, 20.1%


Since we know Lebron significantly reduces the assists of this teammates, we know that he doesn't allow equal-opportunity offenses, where all 5 players SHARE the playmaking responsibilities - this is the kind of offense that teams perceived as "smart" use, such as Mavs, Spurs, 2015 Warriors, and 90's Bulls equal-opportunity triangle.. Since Lebron's style prevents equal opportunity and the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented opponents pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

Of course, with Lebron's style decreasing the assists of teammates, it's no surprise that all his TEAMS have very low assist frequency.

Also, the fact that all of Lebron's Finals losses have come by losing 3 or 4 games in succession, underscores the lack of adjustability and easily-solvable nature of Lebron's ball-dominant style, playground style.


You forgot to posts to your other account?? You are using two browsers.

[feyki]

Dubeta, Jeff might ban you. You need to calm down until the start of the 2016 NBA Playoffs.

:rockon: :rockon:

[Kvnzhangyay]

True...Thats Why I Laugh Out Out Load When a Kid Tells Me Lebron is a Better Passer Than Bird. When All He Does is CHARGER OR DRIVE, GET DOUBLED and PASS TO AN OPEN MAN

Unlike Lebron Bird: Was THE GOD HALF COURT & STATIONARY PASSER!!!

Bird`s Passing Was Way More Crafty!!!
Most seniors that I talked to in a senior home said Lebron was better than any wing player they ever saw except Jordan. ( including magic, bird, kobe, etc)

[Gileraracer]

Most seniors that I talked to in a senior home said Lebron was better than any wing player they ever saw except Jordan. ( including magic, bird, kobe, etc)

I talked to 20 seniors in a senior home and all of them said "I have no clue who LeBron is". So if seniors are always right does this mean LeBron is totally irrelevant?

[miles berg]

Bird all day. He made others around him better. Much better passer, other world shooter, other world BBIQ. Bird played a style where he didn't dominate the ball the whole game. Why don't you post their usage rate.

On top of all of that the actual mental aspect of the game is truly what separates the two. Bird was fearless, LeBron shrinks in the biggest moments. He is mentally incapable of being in the tier of guys like Magic & Bird and anyone that has ever truly watched them all play understands this.

[dubeta]

And all this is even without getting into LeBrons far superior off-ball game


It's easily Bron in this debate







Bird is still > Kobe though

[Dragonyeuw]

Lebron is more physically gifted and dominant from a two-way perspective, but you can plug Bird into pretty much any team scenario, and not have to completely revamp the team make-up around him. Both Wade and Bosh had to adjust themselves in order for the Heat experiment to work. You plug Bird into that scenario, and both of those guys would have performed to capacity without having to do any major alterations to their game. In 2011, Wade and James pretty much had a 'my turn, your turn' dynamic for the entire year, that's why they started off mediocre and only by the end of the season got it together, before imploding against Dallas, because of their talent. But they didn't have anything resembling a real offense until 2012. You stick Bird on the 2011 Heat, and he'll give you his usual production while allowing Wade to maintain his game, and not turn Bosh into a spot-up shooter.

[Lebronxrings]

bird does nothing better than bron...

[Gileraracer]

bird does nothing better than bron...

Bird won the 3pt contest three times and had 2 seasons of 50%/40%/90%


Besides all trolling, do you really think LeBron could do that?

[dubeta]

Bird won the 3pt contest three times and had 2 seasons of 50%/40%/90%


Besides all trolling, do you really think LeBron could do that?

LeBron has had a 55fg+ 40% 3 point season



Lol


Rekt :lol

[Gileraracer]

LeBron has had a 55fg+ 40% 3 point season



Lol


Rekt :lol

So in your opinion that's equal? :facepalm

[juju151111]

Lebron is Better Than 88-92 Bird NOT HEALTHY 79-87 Bird.
No LJ is better then Bird

[LikeABosh]

:oldlol: Was there even an argument? Lebron passed Bird 2 years ago

[LikeABosh]

As you can see, Lebron significantly reduces the assists of his teammates:


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 6.6, 34.8%
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 4.7, 25.5%


Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 1.6, .8.0%

Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'): 5.8, 33.2
Irving apg and assist % with... Lebron (2015):... 5.2, 25.0%


Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN: 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:. 2.2, 10.7%

Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron: 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron: 4.1, 20.1%


Since we know Lebron significantly reduces the assists of this teammates, we know that he doesn't allow equal-opportunity offenses, where all 5 players SHARE the playmaking responsibilities - this is the kind of offense that teams perceived as "smart" use, such as Mavs, Spurs, 2015 Warriors, and 90's Bulls equal-opportunity triangle.. Since Lebron's style prevents equal opportunity and the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented opponents pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

Of course, with Lebron's style decreasing the assists of teammates, it's no surprise that all his TEAMS have very low assist frequency.

Also, the fact that all of Lebron's Finals losses have come by losing 3 or 4 games in succession, underscores the lack of adjustability and easily-solvable nature of Lebron's ball-dominant style, playground style.
Obviously his teammates assists will go down you ****ing idiot. Lebron is the one with the ball in his hands running the show.

[sdot_thadon]

I thought it's been pretty settled for a while that lebron is a better player than bird was, but bird had the better career up to this point. Really Lebron's not far off either. One ring and Bird's accolades suddenly pale in comparison. Longevity is already a wrap now.

As players they are arguable as passers, we know bird was the better shooter and rebounder. Lebron is likely better at everything else aside from fundamental technique I suppose. I do know lebron would never be forgiven for a teammate getting finals mvp like Bird did.

[Rocketswin2013]

Bird all day. He made others around him better. Much better passer, other world shooter, other world BBIQ. Bird played a style where he didn't dominate the ball the whole game. Why don't you post their usage rate.

On top of all of that the actual mental aspect of the game is truly what separates the two. Bird was fearless, LeBron shrinks in the biggest moments. He is mentally incapable of being in the tier of guys like Magic & Bird and anyone that has ever truly watched them all play understands this.
I think this can officially be considered trolling at this point.

[Pushxx]

I still have Bird over LeBron, and I'd choose Bird over LeBron to build a team. It's gonna be hard for that to change.

[GoatBoy]

All LeBron stans have to offer are his padded stats :facepalm

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Bird is still the better offensive player (in the post, footwork, passer, shooter from 3 and midrange) and rebounder.

Aside from athleticism? The only definitive aspects LeBron has over Bird are defense and finishing around the basket.

LeBron is climbing his way up the all-time list, still think he's behind Larry there too.

[Thorpesaurous]

I consider both guys at the absolute peak level, and really the difference is a matter of taste. But as for the numbers I'm a little surprised by how close the steal and block numbers are considering the reputations. (Actually I'm not, I've long considered Bird a wildly underrated defender. He's probably the best guy I've ever seen at screwing up fast breaks with the numbers against him).

[dubeta]

Lol can any post career averages, or advanced stats?


All I hear from bird supporters is subjective factors


Post the numbers :lol

[Mike Armstrong]

Lebron is Better Than 88-92 Bird NOT HEALTHY 79-87 Bird.
Yarp.

[West-Side]

Bird also played on stacked ass teams.
LeBron didn't, for first half of his career.


79 - 88' Bird: 31.0 PPG, 12.7 RPG, 7.6 APG, 2.3 SPG, 1.0 BPG, 50.2% FG, 37.2% 3PT, 87.8% FT, 26.7 usage, .593 TS%

LeBron: 36.9 PPG, 9.6 RPG, 9.3 APG, 2.3 SPG, 1.1 BPG, 49.6% FG, 34.2% 3PT, 74.5% FT, 31.7 usage, .581 TS%

1) Why are we including post-injury Bird's numbers? If that's the case, why not wait till their respective careers are over and include seasons where LeBron is past his prime??

2) LeBron's usage rating is significantly higher. In fact, all the stats that LeBron is ahead of DEPENDS on usage rating (PPG & APG). Funny how RPG does not depend on usage rating, Bird leads LeBron. In fact, despite LeBron's superior athleticism, Bird still has literally the same BPG & SPG.

3) Bird was a more efficient scorer, period. He has a higher FG%, 3PT%, FT% and TS%.

4) You adjust for their usage rating, and their points & assists almost become identical.

For instance, if we were to assume LeBron had a similar usage rating to Bird's.

He'd average 7.83 APG & 31.08 PPG.
Bird averaged 7.6 APG & 31.0 PPG.

Class dismissed.

[dubeta]

So no matter how you manipulate the stats, LeBrons is still better?


Damn :yaohappy:

[West-Side]

So no matter how you manipulate the stats, LeBrons is still better?


Damn :yaohappy:

He's actually, clearly worse.
He only scores more points & has more assists because he's an enormous ball hog. Despite his athletic advantage, he doesn't even have a clear advantage at BPG and their SPG are identical.

The most important factor to consider is EFFICIENCY, which Bird wins in a landslide. In fact, the ONLY reason LeBron has a clear advantage in two statistical categories (PPG & APG) is because of his excessively higher usage rating.

[3ball]

Bird also played on stacked ass teams.
LeBron didn't, for first half of his career.


79 - 88' Bird: 31.0 PPG, 12.7 RPG, 7.6 APG, 2.3 SPG, 1.0 BPG, 50.2% FG, 37.2% 3PT, 87.8% FT, 26.7 usage, .593 TS%

LeBron: 36.9 PPG, 9.6 RPG, 9.3 APG, 2.3 SPG, 1.1 BPG, 49.6% FG, 34.2% 3PT, 74.5% FT, 31.7 usage, .581 TS%

1) Why are we including post-injury Bird's numbers? If that's the case, why not wait till their respective careers are over and include seasons where LeBron is past his prime??

2) LeBron's usage rating is significantly higher. In fact, all the stats that LeBron is ahead of DEPENDS on usage rating (PPG & APG). Funny how RPG does not depend on usage rating, Bird leads LeBron. In fact, despite LeBron's superior athleticism, Bird still has literally the same BPG & SPG.

3) Bird was a more efficient scorer, period. He has a higher FG%, 3PT%, FT% and TS%.

4) You adjust for their usage rating, and their points & assists almost become identical.

For instance, if we were to assume LeBron had a similar usage rating to Bird's.

He'd average 7.83 APG & 31.08 PPG.
Bird averaged 7.6 APG & 31.0 PPG.

Class dismissed.


Yeah, in reality, for usage of that magnitude to consistently win at the highest level, the player has to score an exhorbitant amount at a ridiculous efficiency (see MJ).

There's also the time of possession factor - Lebron's time of possession is among the league leaders, who are all point guards and low-assisted like Lebron... Lebron's point guard style from the forward position means there are TWO guys in the starting lineup that have high time of possession and are low-assisted, which reduces the playmaking capacity of his teams compared to other teams - Lebron's teammates have less time with the ball and they have less opportunity to toss their leading scorer and one of their forwards a dime.

Otoh, the off-ball Bird was a low time of possession, high-assisted player, which increases the playmaking capacity of the team.. Bird's off-ball style resulted in his teams having far greater playmaking capacity than Lebron's ball-dominant, playground style.. The stats show that Lebron reduces the APG and assist % of his teammates and his teams have very low assist frequency.

[4 Inches]

I'm going with the black player.
http://cdn.niketalk.com/0/01/01ae485e_Weebay_shrug_zps9748fdc7.gif

[3ball]

I'm going with the black player



http://sportsblogs.star-telegram.com/.a/6a00e54f7fc4c5883301b7c6e9d155970b-pi

http://d13beo3f7vpmvd.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/lebrons-face.jpg

[GIF REACTION]

Yeah, in reality, for usage of that magnitude to consistently win at the highest level, the player has to score an exhorbitant amount at a ridiculous efficiency (see MJ).

There's also the time of possession factor - Lebron's time of possession is among the league leaders, who are all point guards and low-assisted like Lebron... Lebron's point guard style from the forward position means there are TWO guys in the starting lineup that have high time of possession and are low-assisted, which reduces the playmaking capacity of his teams compared to other teams - Lebron's teammates have less time with the ball and they have less opportunity to toss their leading scorer and one of their forwards a dime.

Otoh, the off-ball Bird was a low time of possession, high-assisted player, which increases the playmaking capacity of the team.. Bird's off-ball style resulted in his teams having far greater playmaking capacity than Lebron's ball-dominant, playground style.. The stats show that Lebron reduces the APG and assist % of his teammates and his teams have very low assist frequency.
But you fail to realize that this also minimizes turnover and opponent total offensive possession

[4 Inches]

http://sportsblogs.star-telegram.com/.a/6a00e54f7fc4c5883301b7c6e9d155970b-pi

http://d13beo3f7vpmvd.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/lebrons-face.jpg
I phuck with Dirk heavy but nuff black men have run a train on him during his career. Plus he got a lack wife so he a real ni99a anyway.

[bizil]

GOAT wise, Magic at PG, MJ at SG, and Timmy at PF are the clear cut #1 at their positions. When it comes to SF and C, u can argue multiple guys. Peak wise and GOAT, u could argue BOTH Bird and Bron at the top. Peak wise, I think Bird will ALWAYS have a case as the best SF.

But GOAT wise, Bron is gonna pass Bird by FOR SURE at some point. Looking at Bron's durability and amount of time left to play, I think he will be the clear cut GOAT SF. In terms of individual accolades, he's ALREADY Bird's equal. Bird just has the slight edge in rings.

[Wally450]

Give me Bird over LeBron.

LeBron as a strong chance to be better when its all said and done of he can win another championship or two.

[dhsilv]

Bird doesn't play basketball any "smarter" than most all time greats.

He was just dirty, tactical and aware of what he could get away with. Much in the same way that Stockton or Payton were "smart" players.

1. Disagree, bird had amazing court awareness especially given his size. His passing doesn't get nearly enough credit, and that was because of his court awareness.
2. Getting away with cheap crap while not fun for fans, is being smart. That take the ability to read and understand the refs.

[dhsilv]

3 for 5 > 1.5 for 6


Op destroyed



and you lose the argument already....

[dhsilv]

I still have Bird over LeBron, and I'd choose Bird over LeBron to build a team. It's gonna be hard for that to change.

Once LBJ hits 20 years in the league would it not change by default? The guy is 30 and has played close enough to the same number of seasons as bird and hasn't shown ANY health issues.

The real shame of Bird and Magic is that both retired far too young.

[KevinNYC]

Quote:
Originally Posted by plowking
Bird doesn't play basketball any "smarter" than most all time greats.

He was just dirty, tactical and aware of what he could get away with. Much in the same way that Stockton or Payton were "smart" players.
1. Disagree, bird had amazing court awareness especially given his size. His passing doesn't get nearly enough credit, and that was because of his court awareness.
2. Getting away with cheap crap while not fun for fans, is being smart. That take the ability to read and understand the refs.

This I think was the most surprising post in this thread. Bird's basketball smarts are up there with anyone. I would have to hear a real good argument to place another player above him. Perhaps Russell? Bird is only this debate due to his feel for the game and sense of anticipation which is how he got so many steals and blocks. When Bird was rolling, you always had to keep your eyes on him. Even if he didn't have the ball. Yeah, he was a great shooter, but he's top ten all time because of all the other things he did. One of the all time great defensive rebounders. One of the all time help defenders.

Also where's this dirty nonsense from? I don't remember hearing that at all about Bird. Trash talk, yes, but dirty?

Larry Bird had a 9 steal game. A 9 steal game in which he sat out the entire 4th quarter. The NBA record for steals is 11.

[dhsilv]

Lol can any post career averages, or advanced stats?


All I hear from bird supporters is subjective factors


Post the numbers :lol

Hmmm, I don't agree bird was better, but I'll throw some stats out there.

lets start with the argument is that Bird's peak was better than lebrons. We'll do this for two reasons. The first is it's an interesting argument that I can make and I'll find a way to argue it. Second, we already know career length will favor lebron due to bird's injuries ending his career where it really should have been entering his mental prime with his body still working. Sadly we don't have those years to judge.

Next we'll start with what I consider an "ok" argument that the 80's were a strong if not the strongest time in nba history and the early 2000's were the weakest since the russel and wilt eras. The point to make here is that bird played in a league that was around 23 team vs lebron with 30, so the league had 30% more players. We can counter this argument all day but lets hold that this is at least to some degree true. Until I think 89 or 88 the league was 23 or less teams and lebron has been in a 30 team league without the time to saturate it in talent at least for the start of his career (I'll go on record saying right now the nba is better than ever talent wise).

Now given above, the logical way to judge players with advanced stats and voting is based on the league and not on raw scores. I'm making the assumption that advanced stats are not the same season over season (the stats guy will disagree at least to some degree), but again I have to cheat this, lol.

MVP Award Share:

We all know that Lebron is a hair away from passing MJ on this one and both are ahead of Kareem the guy with the most trophies BUT bird finished top 3 in the award (only once was he actually 3rd btw) 8 straight years. That is a pretty major accomplishment and something very very few guys can claim. Lebron HAS finished top 3 8 times over his career, but he's currently on a 7 year streak and he needed 3rd twice on that one to get there. 6 straght top 2's for bird to lebron's 3.

Now things get difficult. Here's the thing. MJ and Lebron are basically the advanced stats darlings. Kareem and Wilt maybe could compete and do in some areas but they didn't have full stats on them for some of the better advanced stats. Anyway the point is even the crap about shaq being the most dominant ever...you can't show that with stats like you can for MJ and Lebron.

That said bird had a 4 year run where he was the top dog in VORP, BPM, 2 years WS, 2 years WS/48, and two years PER. He was clearly in the top 3 multiple times for these stats as well. Again this doesn't touch lebron.

HOWEVER, we assumed earlier than the 80's were a better time in basketball and that competition was better. As a result his dominance against a better level of competition could be seen as superior.

Defense, the 2000 tone elephant in the room.

I'm not sure why but around here for some reason people are giving Lebron the defensive edge?

Top 10 DBPM
Bird 6
Lebron 1

Top 10 DWS
Bird 8 (4 times league leader)
Lebron 6

Advanced stats GREATLY favor bird all be it we know all defensive stats are iffy, but still lets assume they got this close. It's a big lead for Bird and likely if it's true he was a much better defender then we also can assume his other advanced stats were underrated as a result.

I'd like to look at playoffs but we run into some major problems. It's pretty well agreed that the east over bird's career was a bit stronger (some would say a lot) then the west and lebron clearly is in the lesser conference now. If we factor in a era bias that makes this even harder. If we then factor in that lebron gets more first round games (we assume against lessor teams) we get more bias in the stats.

So there you have it. Unbiased (all be it assumption loaded) arguments that show that Bird has a case against lebron, even if I'm not buying it, I actually think there's a legit case there.

FYI I ignored playoffs but Bird's playoffs stats are REALLY good so don't think that they were ignored because they suck. They don't, it's just it's hard to compare fairly in this context, also super high usage skews things like PER so much and then minutes and games skew win share and vorp...it just gets messy.

[CavaliersFTW]

Post their stats per actual individual touches. Not team possessions. And you'd find Bird looks superior.

Lebron plays in an era with lower pace so his team TRIES to get the ball to him relatively more often.

On top of this, LeBron likes to dominate the ball and bring it up in transition a number of times a game, where as Bird was more of an off-ball player.

Put Bird in this era and his "per-100" stats go up. Put LeBron in Bird's era and his "per-100" goes down.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Defensive winshares and DPBM. :oldlol:

You really couldn't ask for more terrible stats. Notably ones reliant on supporting cast and TEAM.

[dhsilv]

GOAT wise, Magic at PG, MJ at SG, and Timmy at PF are the clear cut #1 at their positions. When it comes to SF and C, u can argue multiple guys. Peak wise and GOAT, u could argue BOTH Bird and Bron at the top. Peak wise, I think Bird will ALWAYS have a case as the best SF.

But GOAT wise, Bron is gonna pass Bird by FOR SURE at some point. Looking at Bron's durability and amount of time left to play, I think he will be the clear cut GOAT SF. In terms of individual accolades, he's ALREADY Bird's equal. Bird just has the slight edge in rings.

always amazes me a guy who plays nearly 70% of the time at center is the best power forward of all time.....

[dhsilv]

Defensive winshares and DPBM. :oldlol:

You really couldn't ask for more terrible stats. Notably ones reliant on supporting cast and TEAM.

if you have better stats for the 80's most them. If you have mathematical issue with them, post them. if you have stupid unsupported comments, shove them up you......

[dubeta]

Post their stats per actual individual touches. Not team possessions. And you'd find Bird looks superior.

Lebron plays in an era with lower pace so his team TRIES to get the ball to him relatively more often.

On top of this, LeBron likes to dominate the ball and bring it up in transition a number of times a game, where as Bird was more of an off-ball player.

Put Bird in this era and his "per-100" stats go up. Put LeBron in Bird's era and his "per-100" goes down.



A Cavs fan who's picking against LeBron? Why am I not surprised?

:yaohappy:


Btw you're wrong, LeBron was a hair better off-ball player than Bird


The Celtics offense was built around Birds playmaking, with McHale and Parish acting as the off-ball post players


Meanwhile LeBron has been playing off-ball behind Chalmers in Miami and Kyrie in Cleveland, hence a superior off-ball game


I thought you watch Cavs games??? :biggums:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

if you have better stats for the 80's most them. If you have mathematical issue with them, post them. if you have stupid unsupported comments, shove them up you......

:whatever:

Remember that time you claimed RAPM didn't exist for 1998-2001? And remember when I found those stats...you suddenly went MIA? :confusedshrug:

You can find a number of stats (bball-ref) better than winshares, which are heavily dependent on your team. Do your own homework, kiddo

[Wade's Rings]

2011 is the only time he really struggled in the NBA Finals. Lebron put up better numbers than Bird in the NBA Finals. You cannot blame him in 2014 and 2015. Hie teammates let him down in 2014 while in 2015 his 3 best players were missing.

They were very lucky to win 2 games vs. the Warriors with that kind of supporting casts.

:kobe: 2007: 35% with 6 Turnovers a Game.

[dhsilv]

:whatever:

Remember that time you claimed RAPM didn't exist for 1998-2001? And remember when I found those stats...you suddenly went MIA? :confusedshrug:

You can find a number of stats (bball-ref) better than winshares, which are heavily dependent on your team. Do your own homework, kiddo

Remember that time I said if you had stats that made a different point than what I posted earlier and you never posted anything but kept on bickering without providing them? Yeah I recall that too....

If you have stats that provide a counter view, post the stats and explain them if asked. Otherwise, shut up.

[Wade's Rings]

2) LeBron's usage rating is significantly higher. In fact, all the stats that LeBron is ahead of DEPENDS on usage rating (PPG & APG). Funny how RPG does not depend on usage rating, Bird leads LeBron. In fact, despite LeBron's superior athleticism, Bird still has literally the same BPG & SPG.

The most important factor to consider is EFFICIENCY, which Bird wins in a landslide. In fact, the ONLY reason LeBron has a clear advantage in two statistical categories (PPG & APG) is because of his excessively higher usage rating.


He's actually, clearly worse.
He only scores more points & has more assists because he's an enormous ball hog. Despite his athletic advantage, he doesn't even have a clear advantage at BPG and their SPG are identical.

The most important factor to consider is EFFICIENCY, which Bird wins in a landslide. In fact, the ONLY reason LeBron has a clear advantage in two statistical categories (PPG & APG) is because of his excessively higher usage rating.

Usage Rate is the % of Offense that runs through a player. Time of Possession has to do with how long a player has the ball in their hands.

[bizil]

always amazes me a guy who plays nearly 70% of the time at center is the best power forward of all time.....

That's the thing about Duncan. He's a 7 footer with a dominant center's skillset. He dominated in the paint like the great centers did. But I think he played enough PF in his career to be considered the GOAT PF. But he played more center than any of the GOAT PF's.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Remember that time I said if you had stats that made a different point than what I posted earlier and you never posted anything but kept on bickering without providing them? Yeah I recall that too....

The onus is on you.

:confusedshrug:

I'm not gonna be fetching stats for your simple mind just to prove you wrong...again. A simple google search will do that for you, masochist.


If you have stats that provide a counter view, post the stats and explain them if asked. Otherwise, shut up.

No thoughts on RAPM circa 1998-2001? Didn't think so.

[dhsilv]

That's the thing about Duncan. He's a 7 footer with a dominant center's skillset. He dominated in the paint like the great centers did. But I think he played enough PF in his career to be considered the GOAT PF. But he played more center than any of the GOAT PF's.

Again he played the majority of his career at center....and by a margin. He's a center who has the skill to play PF and did when he had another true center on the team. But anyway, either way he's an all time great.

[dhsilv]

The onus is on you.

:confusedshrug:

I'm not gonna be fetching stats for your simple mind just to prove you wrong...again. A simple google search will do that for you, masochist.



No thoughts on RAPM circa 1998-2001? Didn't think so.

I post stats. You tell me I used the wrong ones and that other stats will show a different story. You don't post stats.

One of us posted stats. The other person was posting rude comments and acting like I'm an idiot because I don't subscribe to RAPM as the only metric on the planet. Unless you have something to add, shut the hell up already. If you have something to add, POST IT, asshole!

[3ball]

No thoughts on RAPM circa 1998-2001? Didn't think so.


Why do you guys look at RAPM to compare players - like, for every seemingly rational observation of RAPM (like say, Shaq has higher RAPM than Luc Longley), there are 5 irrational ones (i.e. Laettner leading league in RAPM)... People say you're supposed to compare similar players - even when you do that, there's tons of nonsensical ratings.

Same thing with box score plus/minus - this stats shows that Drexler is higher than Kareem... Wade is higher than Shaq, Duncan, and Kareem... There are literally a zillion that make no sense.

[3ball]

That's the thing about Duncan. He's a 7 footer with a dominant center's skillset. He dominated in the paint like the great centers did. But I think he played enough PF in his career to be considered the GOAT PF. But he played more center than any of the GOAT PF's.
And one thing about Lebron is that he gets his stats by reducing the stats of teammates - this is statistical fact.. A blatant statisical fact.

Consequently, the only way time Lebron wins championship is when he has so much talent that his team can overcome the reduction of teammate stats...

But otherwise, Lebron's teams lose while he employs his stat-friendly, rudimentary, ball-dominant, easily-solvable, playground/bush league style - Lebron MUST get his - and if his team is lucky enough to have enough talent to overcome this - great - but regardless, Lebron ain't gettin' blamed cause he got his... yeah baby

[dubeta]

And one thing about Lebron is that he gets his stats by reducing the stats of teammates - this is statistical fact.. A blatant statisical fact.

Consequently, the only way time Lebron wins championship is when he has so much talent that his team can overcome the reduction of teammate stats...

But otherwise, Lebron's teams lose while he employs his stat-friendly, rudimentary, ball-dominant, easily-solvable, playground/bush league style - Lebron MUST get his - and if his team is lucky enough to have enough talent to overcome this - great - but regardless, Lebron ain't gettin' blamed cause he got his... yeah baby

straight giggles

Do you actually believe LeBron doesn't have a better off-ball game than Bird?

:yaohappy:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I post stats. You tell me I used the wrong ones and that other stats will show a different story. You don't post stats.

One of us posted stats. The other person was posting rude comments and acting like I'm an idiot because I don't subscribe to RAPM as the only metric on the planet.

I've already posted "stats".

You went ghost after I linked RAPM numbers those years. :confusedshrug:

But hey, you wanna use by all accounts a worse measure of impact? Knock yourself out.

Equating "winshares" with the best players, and postulating like its 100% fact, is where you're wrong, and I will continue to correct you every time I see such nonsense.


Unless you have something to add, shut the hell up already. If you have something to add, POST IT, asshole!

Again, I've already posted "stats".

What are you gonna do about it?


Why do you guys look at RAPM to compare players - like, for every seemingly rational observation of RAPM (like say, Shaq has higher RAPM than Luc Longley), there are 5 irrational ones (i.e. Laettner leading league in RAPM)... People say you're supposed to compare similar players - even when you do that, there's tons of nonsensical ratings.

Same thing with box score plus/minus - this stats shows that Drexler is higher than Kareem... Wade is higher than Shaq, Duncan, and Kareem... There are literally a zillion that make no sense.

I'm not really sold on either of them. Not a big proponent of advanced numbers unless I'm discussing teams.

If you're gonna use advanced numbers for individuals, though, and try to pass them off as fact? PER (efficiency) and RAPM (impact) are the best you're going to get. A hell of a lot better than looking at BPM and winshares. Especially winshares, which don't even attempt to adjust their raw figures.

Offense, defense, opponent, minutes, your teammates? None of this is accounted for.

Terrible.

[dhsilv]

And one thing about Lebron is that he gets his stats by reducing the stats of teammates - this is statistical fact.. A blatant statisical fact.

Consequently, the only way time Lebron wins championship is when he has so much talent that his team can overcome the reduction of teammate stats...

But otherwise, Lebron's teams lose while he employs his stat-friendly, rudimentary, ball-dominant, easily-solvable, playground/bush league style - Lebron MUST get his - and if his team is lucky enough to have enough talent to overcome this - great - but regardless, Lebron ain't gettin' blamed cause he got his... yeah baby

Please post stats. Note you need to adjust to usage rate before and after lebron when comparing metrics. Also use on off metrics. If not, please note that you do not have proof but have stats you'd like considered.

[dhsilv]

I've already posted "stats".

You went ghost after I linked RAPM numbers those years. :confusedshrug:

But hey, you wanna use by all accounts a worse measure of impact? Knock yourself out.

Equating "winshares" with the best players, and postulating like its 100% fact, is where you're wrong, and I will continue to correct you every time I see such nonsense.



Again, I've already posted "stats".

What are you gonna do about it?



I'm not really sold on either of them. Not a big proponent of advanced numbers unless I'm discussing teams.

If you're gonna use advanced numbers for individuals, though, and try to pass them off as fact? PER (efficiency) and RAPM (impact) are the best you're going to get. A hell of a lot better than looking at BPM and winshares. Especially winshares, which don't even attempt to adjust their raw figures.

Offense, defense, opponent, minutes, your teammates? None of this is accounted for.

Terrible.

I'll take BPM and WS/48 over PER everyday of the week. RAPM is an interesting measures but only the 3 year one seems useful, but it doesn't work with 90% of the arguments here.

Anyway, no you didn't post ANY stats. You never posted a damn stat even once. you linked to sites, but you never made a single counter to what I said other than throwing insults like a rude asshole. Honestly man, go to hell. If you don't want to talk basketball or discuss stats in a meaningful way leave me alone. I have no interest in dealing with people who have nothing to say but negative shit without posting a single fact, stats, or opinion of value. You have done nothing but post insults and attacks at me without any reason. I have better things to do than both with people who can't make their point but love to attack and insult others.

Any other insults from you, I'll move this to PM's. The board is better than your attacks and cheap insults.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'll take BPM and WS/48 over PER everyday of the week. RAPM is an interesting measures but only the 3 year one seems useful, but it doesn't work with 90% of the arguments here.

PER is an efficiency metric, but at least it adjusts for pace. That's good for year-to-year, and sometimes decade-to-decade comparisons.

But again, that's just a "stat" to measure overall efficiency.


Anyway, no you didn't post ANY stats. You never posted a damn stat even once. you linked to sites, but you never made a single counter to what I said other than throwing insults like a rude asshole. Honestly man, go to hell. If you don't want to talk basketball or discuss stats in a meaningful way leave me alone. I have no interest in dealing with people who have nothing to say but negative shit without posting a single fact, stats, or opinion of value. You have done nothing but post insults and attacks at me without any reason. I have better things to do than both with people who can't make their point but love to attack and insult others.

I've posted said RAPM numbers in other threads, and you have YET to rebut or give feedback on them. :oldlol:

So far all I've seen from you is "winshares and BPM = factz!!!111"

That's not an argument, and pasting those SAME metrics doesn't address the underlying negatives I've explained with them.

Let me know when you're off your rag, and ready to reply.

[dhsilv]

PER is an efficiency metric, but at least it adjusts for pace. That's good for year-to-year, and sometimes decade-to-decade comparisons.

But again, that's just a "stat" to measure overall efficiency.



I've posted said RAPM numbers in other threads, and you have YET to rebut or give feedback on them. :oldlol:

So far all I've seen from you is "winshares and BPM = factz!!!111"

That's not an argument, and pasting those SAME metrics doesn't address the underlying negatives I've explained with them.

Let me know when you're off your rag, and ready to reply.

I did not state facts, I stated numbers. PER is much like WS/48 and BPM as far as efficiency. WS and BPM are pace adjusted.

You did not post your stats. I still do'nt know why you think DBPM and DWS are not reasons for the kobe argument last made. You never posted RAPM counters. You posted links but didn't even say why it would be different...

But please keep trolling me...

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I did not state facts, I stated numbers. PER is much like WS/48 and BPM as far as efficiency. WS and BPM are pace adjusted.

You did not post your stats. I still do'nt know why you think DBPM and DWS are not reasons for the kobe argument last made. You never posted RAPM counters. You posted links but didn't even say why it would be different...

But please keep trolling me...

:kobe:

So why continuously ask for numbers? Your health?

I've posted RAPM numbers that take into account all variables explained in this thread and the other, and you haven't addressed that.

You haven't addressed the negatives I posted with winshares or BPM either.

I'll assume you have no counter argument, so keep begging for numbers. After all they're not facts. :oldlol:

[Prime_Shaq]

I've said this many times, fans don't truly appreciate current legends when comparing them to past legends, it's not until the player is close to retirement that people look and evaluate their career and realize how great the career was. When you really think about it LeBron is just 1 title away from being considered greater than Bird, he will have the longevity edge on him, same amount of rings, & more MVPs.

This is coming from a huge Bird fan too, I love that dude's game with a passion, but chances are LeBron will surpass him by the time he retires.
I agree, I just don't think LeBron is above Bird YET.

[gilalizard]

Larry Legend had the heart of a true champion.

LeBaldo has the heart of a journeyman. And HGH. And the most ref favoritism in the history of the game.

[ralph_i_el]

Stats don't account for the different impacts on spacing between Bird and Bron. LeBron has at best a neutral impact on spacing (although it doesn't matter, considering he always has the ball), whereas Bird had an extremely positive impact on spacing. Also,

[juju151111]

PER is an efficiency metric, but at least it adjusts for pace. That's good for year-to-year, and sometimes decade-to-decade comparisons.

But again, that's just a "stat" to measure overall efficiency.



I've posted said RAPM numbers in other threads, and you have YET to rebut or give feedback on them. :oldlol:

So far all I've seen from you is "winshares and BPM = factz!!!111"

That's not an argument, and pasting those SAME metrics doesn't address the underlying negatives I've explained with them.

Let me know when you're off your rag, and ready to reply.
Where can i find RAPM for 97-2015

[GrapeApe]

And all this is even without getting into LeBrons far superior off-ball game

:facepalm

The absurdity of that statement is the equivalent of saying "Dwyane Wade is a far superior 3 point shooter than Steph Curry".

It not only belongs in the "stupidest things said on ish" thread, it might be THE stupidest thing ever said on ish. Lebron is a terrible off-ball player. His lack of ability to play off the ball is one of his biggest weaknesses. Meanwhile Bird is arguably the greatest off-ball player ever.

[Rocketswin2013]

Where can i find RAPM for 97-2015
IIRC '97 - '01 is separate. '01- '13 can be found here: https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/

'97 - '14 is the only thing on the google site.

Across the court has '97 - '01.

There are several '14 and '15 versions. Easy enough to find. Do some google searches.

[Rocketswin2013]

Also, usage rate to Point per game calculation is literally one of the dumbest ****ing things I've ever seen on this forum.

I'm not even going to detail why, but it is beyond stupid.

[dhsilv]

Why do you guys look at RAPM to compare players - like, for every seemingly rational observation of RAPM (like say, Shaq has higher RAPM than Luc Longley), there are 5 irrational ones (i.e. Laettner leading league in RAPM)... People say you're supposed to compare similar players - even when you do that, there's tons of nonsensical ratings.

Same thing with box score plus/minus - this stats shows that Drexler is higher than Kareem... Wade is higher than Shaq, Duncan, and Kareem... There are literally a zillion that make no sense.

Box score based stats are great, HOWEVER they're much better when looking at the same year to same year or league rankings. I'm a bit less positive on them as cumulative career stat.

Add in we don't have kareem's full career in BPM, missing his peak early years. Wade's career isn't over, his stats are skewed by his peak. Just like Magic and Bird are higher due in part to having shorter careers. Duncan's longer career hurts him here.

As for the love of these stats, they do very well in predicting future team results. That said even RAPM while the best predictor doesn't do any better if not worse than PER (which generally sucks for this) for when players are traded. So even RAPM doesn't really adjust for teammates FULLY. Still they are as good as we get and when used with other stats, they paint a much better picture than old men a barber shop talking about how great Wilt was....

[Dr Hawk]

:facepalm

The absurdity of that statement is the equivalent of saying "Dwyane Wade is a far superior 3 point shooter than Steph Curry".

It not only belongs in the "stupidest things said on ish" thread, it might be THE stupidest thing ever said on ish. Lebron is a terrible off-ball player. His lack of ability to play off the ball is one of his biggest weaknesses. Meanwhile Bird is arguably the greatest off-ball player ever.


So much this, and also it limits theceiling of hsi teams

[dhsilv]

And one thing about Lebron is that he gets his stats by reducing the stats of teammates - this is statistical fact.. A blatant statisical fact.

Consequently, the only way time Lebron wins championship is when he has so much talent that his team can overcome the reduction of teammate stats...

But otherwise, Lebron's teams lose while he employs his stat-friendly, rudimentary, ball-dominant, easily-solvable, playground/bush league style - Lebron MUST get his - and if his team is lucky enough to have enough talent to overcome this - great - but regardless, Lebron ain't gettin' blamed cause he got his... yeah baby

You really haven't proven this btw. You posted raw numbers, but didn't factor in the change in usage rates let alone discussing changes in offensive play calling. You can't take 3 guys who were all the focal point of their offense, put them together, and expect that their production would not shift.

[NZStreetBaller]

Everything about bird was alpha and he was a great leader and a winner. You can go shove any statline where the sun dont shine.

[Blue&Orange]

IIRC '97 - '01 is separate. '01- '13 can be found here: https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/

'97 - '14 is the only thing on the google site.

Across the court has '97 - '01.

There are several '14 and '15 versions. Easy enough to find. Do some google searches.
uhhh, sites.google.com/site/rapmstats, who made that? Your mother?


Baron Davis > Lebron James
CArlos Boozer > Kobe Bryant

Jason Collins > Kevin GArnett


Great stat, flawless.

[sportjames23]

:facepalm

The absurdity of that statement is the equivalent of saying "Dwyane Wade is a far superior 3 point shooter than Steph Curry".

It not only belongs in the "stupidest things said on ish" thread, it might be THE stupidest thing ever said on ish. Lebron is a terrible off-ball player. His lack of ability to play off the ball is one of his biggest weaknesses. Meanwhile Bird is arguably the greatest off-ball player ever.


Big dubeta fan here, but even I must admit he got destroyed here.

[3ball]

Agreed.

[3ball]

:facepalm

[3ball]

You really haven't proven that Lebron gets his stats by reducing his teammates stats.



In addition to PPG, Lebron significantly lowers the APG and assist % of his teammates:


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)


Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), .8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'): 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)
Irving apg and assist % with... Lebron (2015):... 5.2, 25.0%


Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN: 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:. 2.2, 10.7%

Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron: 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron: 4.1, 20.1%

FYI...

Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 91'-93': 6.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game), 24.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % w/out Jordan 94'-95': 5.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game), 23.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 96'-98': 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game), 25.1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced)


Lebron's presence significantly lowered the APG and assist percentage of Dwayne Wade, Kyrie Irving, Mo Williams, Kevin Love and Chris Bosh, while increasing their assisted rates.. Lower APG and higher assisted rates proves that these guys went from playmakers to play-finishers.. Their reduced playmaking alongside Lebron explains why Lebron's TEAMS (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446) have always had very low assist frequency.

Keep in mind that teams normally have 1 low-assisted, ball-dominator - the point guard.. But Lebron's presence as an additional, low-assisted ball-dominator (in addition to the PG) creates an inequitable distribution of playmaking that prevents the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that all the great teams use (Bird's Celtics, 90's Bulls, Mavs, Spurs, Warriors)... Since Lebron's ball-dominance prevents his teams from playing the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented opponents are able to pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..

Btw, it takes more ability to achieve great stats within an equal-opportunity, winning framework, than the stat-friendly, easily-solvable, grade school-level, clearout/playground style that ball-dominators like Lebron need to get their numbers.
.

[GIF REACTION]

Incorrect 3ball

Lebron teams are almost ALWAYS in the top 5 or top 10 in assist ratio

Basketball is a game of possessions, it is a net weighing.

[Dr Hawk]

Incorrect 3ball

Lebron teams are almost ALWAYS in the top 5 or top 10 in assist ratio

Basketball is a game of possessions, it is a net weighing.

2-pt field goals assisted = #18

3-pt field goals assisted = #24

Not good

[aj1987]

Cherrypicked BS stats without any context.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11695332&postcount=37

Seriously though, look at the years you used, retard. Just mind boggling that you're this obsessed with LeBron though.

[3ball]

Seriously though, look at the years you used.. You cherry-picked


Cherry-picked?

I compared every single year these guys DIDN'T play with Lebron, to all the years they played with him...

And for every single player (Wade, Kyrie, Bosh, Love, Mo Williams), their APG and assist % were significantly lower alongside him.. That's not cherry-picking - that's using all the available data.

Lebron significantly lowers the points and assists of teammates - this is statistical fact and irrefutable.. Since he lowers PPG and APG of teammates, he achieves his stats by reducing the stats of teammates.. :confusedshrug:

[dubeta]

3ball respond to this





DeMar Derozan = '87 Jordan



Same fluidity, hops, quickness, jumper, dunking ability


The only difference is that DeMar can't abuse the no zone defense of today (i.e. He plays with shading defenses), and defenders have gotten more athletic.


Don't believe me? Look at MJ's stats in the modern era (Post 2000s) and compare it to DeMar Derozans, they're about the same, with DeMar having higher efficiency.

[3ball]

3ball respond to this


ok





Demar had same hops


:roll:





same quickness


:roll:





same dunking ability


:roll:





same jumper


:roll: :roll:





same fluidity


:roll: :roll:





DeMar Derozan = '87 Jordan


:roll: :roll:





The only difference is that DeMar can't abuse the no zone defense of today


zone isn't allowed inside the 16 x 19 foot painted area - inside the paint, defenders must stay within "armslength" (about 3 feet).

"armslength" is the strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder.. yet this ridiculously strict policy governs today's defenders in the most important area of the floor: the paint.





Demar plays with shading defenses


Paint-camping is a superior defensive tactic than shading.

Also, paint-camping and no-spacing is a tougher defensive environment than shading and spacing.. :confusedshrug:

Today's game has spacing, so defenders are helping from further away - that's the definition of spacing... The further distance of today's help defenders isn't disputable - it's physics... Spacing affords today's players more time and room to operate than ever before.





Look at MJ's stats in the modern era (Post 2000s) and compare it to DeMar Derozans, they're about the same


You don't seem to understand that there has NEVER been an athletic wing player who was still very good/all-star caliber past 35 years old.. Athletic wing is the hardest position to play as an older man.. Nonetheless, MJ had better stats as a 40-year old in 2003, then Lebron had in 2004...

40-year old MJ destroys prime Demar, and you know it.. MJ's stats would've been even higher in the playoffs LIKE THEY ALWAYS WERE... 40-year old MJ gets 23-24 ppg in playoffs on 43-44%.. Demar will never sniff those numbers, let alone at 40.. Not even at 30.
.

[Straight_Ballin]

Post their stats.

lol at using "stats" from 2 different eras to compare players

[aj1987]

Cherry-picked?

I compared every single year these guys DIDN'T play with Lebron, to all the years they played with him...

And for every single player (Wade, Kyrie, Bosh, Love, Mo Williams), their APG and assist % were significantly lower alongside him.. That's not cherry-picking - that's using all the available data.

Lebron significantly lowers the points and assists of teammates - this is statistical fact and irrefutable.. Since he lowers PPG and APG of teammates, he achieves his stats by reducing the stats of teammates.. :confusedshrug:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11695332&postcount=37

You should ask Jeff to change your name to cherrypicker.

[3ball]

You should ask Jeff to change your name to cherrypicker.


I posted the assist frequency of every single team Lebron had for his entire NBA career.

They ALL have very low assist frequency, far lower than the teams of Bird, Magic, MJ, Curry, Duncan.

I'm fine with these facts, but you keep being delusional - you probably think Lebron's teams are GOOD passing teams and my data hurt your feelings.
.

[3ball]

Also you never responded to what I posted - you ran like a b itch from this:

Lebron significantly lowered the APG and assist % of Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love and Mo Willliams.

Since Lebron significantly lowers the points and assists of teammates, we know how Lebron gets his stats: by reducing the stats of teammates - this is statistical fact.
.

[aj1987]

Also you never responded to what I posted - you ran like a b itch from this:

Lebron significantly lowered the APG and assist % of Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love and Mo Willliams.

Since Lebron significantly lowers the points and assists of teammates, we know how Lebron gets his stats: by reducing the stats of teammates - this is statistical fact.
.
I did respond to you, chimp:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11695332&postcount=37

Looks like the teams are better passing teams WITH LeBron than without him. Stop ducking that post like aa bitch, you cherrypicking ******.

Oh, and 0.3 and 0.6 change in APG is significant? Stop being a dense ****.

[3ball]

I did respond to you, chimp:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11695332&postcount=37

Looks like the teams are better passing teams WITH LeBron than without him. Stop ducking that post like aa bitch, you cherrypicking ******.


Possessions Per Assist (higher number means less passing)


2014 Heat: 4.05
2013 Heat: 3.94
2012 Heat: 4.56
2011 Heat: 4.55
________________________________________
2010 Heat: 4.75
2009 Heat: 4.41
2008 Heat: 4.50

^^^ SAME - NO IMPROVEMENT WITH LEBRON


2014 Cavs: 4.41
2013 Cavs: 4.47
2012 Cavs: 4.61
2011 Cavs: 4.43
________________________________________
2010 Cavs: 4.08
2009 Cavs: 4.37
2008 Cavs: 4.51
2007 Cavs: 4.37
2006 Cavs: 4.72

^^^^ SAME


1998 Bulls: 3.74
1997 Bulls: 3.45
1996 Bulls: 3.67
1993 Bulls: 3.56
1992 Bulls: 3.40
1991 Bulls: 3.54
1990 Bulls: 3.65
1989 Bulls: 3.59
1988 Bulls: 3.65
1987 Bulls: 3.67
1985 Bulls: 4.09
_________________________________________
1984 Bulls: 3.91
1983 Bulls: 4.18
1982 Bulls: 3.98
1981 Bulls: 4.28
1980 Bulls: 3.89
1979 Bulls: 3.88
1978 Bulls: 3.93
1977 Bulls: 4.12
1976 Bulls: 4.82
1975 Bulls: 4.45

^^^ MORE PASSING WITH MJ (LESS POSSESSIONS PER ASSIST)
.

[aj1987]

Possessions Per Assist (higher number means less passing)


2014 Heat: 4.05
2013 Heat: 3.94
2012 Heat: 4.56
2011 Heat: 4.55
________________________________________
2010 Heat: 4.75
2009 Heat: 4.41
2008 Heat: 4.50

^^^ SAME - NO IMPROVEMENT WITH LEBRON


2014 Cavs: 4.41
2013 Cavs: 4.47
2012 Cavs: 4.61
2011 Cavs: 4.43
________________________________________
2010 Cavs: 4.08
2009 Cavs: 4.37
2008 Cavs: 4.51
2007 Cavs: 4.37
2006 Cavs: 4.72

^^^^ SAME

Heat:

With LeBron - 4.27 (With the lowest being 3.94 and the highest being 4.56)
Without LeBron - 4.55 (with the lowest being 4.4 and the highest 4.75)

Cavs:

With LeBron - 4.41
Without LeBron - 4.48

Not the same. Lets also not forget that MJ played with the GOAT coach and LeBron played witch coaches, who are either average or flat out bums.

You must also include an * for those Bulls teams as it was Pippen who carried out the playmaking and not MJ.

[GIF REACTION]

Can someone explain to me what he's trying to prove

[JtotheIzzo]

Bron is a better basketball player. I don't know how you, out of all people are saying otherwise, considering nearly all of your analysis on players is purely from a statistical standpoint on here.

He just is. He does everything Bird does, but better, outside of rebounding.


Just, f*cking stop.

Clutch - Bird
Shooting - Bird
free throws - Bird
Leadership - Bird
Winning - Bird
Passing - Bird/Push...but I still think Bird
Intangibles - Bird
Interior defense - Bird
Post game - Bird

[Rocketswin2013]

Just, f*cking stop.

Clutch - Bird
Shooting - Bird
free throws - Bird
Leadership - Bird
Winning - Bird
Passing - Bird/Push...but I still think Bird
Intangibles - Bird
Interior defense - Bird
Post game - Bird
You cannot prove a lot of that stuff.

[sportjames23]

You cannot prove a lot of that stuff.

Actually, he can.

[Kvnzhangyay]

Actually, he can.

He can if he's never watched Bird before and only sees highlights

Most real old people that have seen both believe Lebron is better

[sportjames23]

He can if he's never watched Bird before and only sees highlights

Most real old people that have seen both believe Lebron is better


You're shittin me, right?

[dubeta]

You're shittin me, right?


1-9

[Kvnzhangyay]

You're shittin me, right?

Not at all

I'm talking from experience (I only watched Bird when he was basically done... so I avoid judgment on him)

[HurricaneKid]

LeBron is going into his 12th year. Bird played 12 years.

LeBron has twice as many 3pters made as Bird. And thats supposed to be the one area Bird crushes him.

The difference between their OWS is 38. Thats more than Bird's two best years, and better than three of his avg years. The difference between their VORP is 31. Difference in career PER is 4.2. These aren't small gaps. They are chasms.

I really do think Bird gets the shaft. He was widely considered a better player than Magic during his time but his career was shorteded due to injury and Magic made the Finals in 91 and a decade later with all the TV he does people somehow jumped Magic in front of him. I sure don't. Bird was a really good defender and Magic was a sieve.

But I don't think either has been nearly as good as LeBron has been. And the stats aren't even close.

[3ball]

Possessions Per Assist (higher number means less passing)


2014 Heat: 4.05
2013 Heat: 3.94
2012 Heat: 4.56
2011 Heat: 4.55
________________________________________
2010 Heat: 4.75
2009 Heat: 4.41
2008 Heat: 4.50

^^^ SAME - NO IMPROVEMENT WITH LEBRON


2014 Cavs: 4.41
2013 Cavs: 4.47
2012 Cavs: 4.61
2011 Cavs: 4.43
________________________________________
2010 Cavs: 4.08
2009 Cavs: 4.37
2008 Cavs: 4.51
2007 Cavs: 4.37
2006 Cavs: 4.72

^^^^ SAME


1998 Bulls: 3.74
1997 Bulls: 3.45
1996 Bulls: 3.67
1993 Bulls: 3.56
1992 Bulls: 3.40
1991 Bulls: 3.54
1990 Bulls: 3.65
1989 Bulls: 3.59
1988 Bulls: 3.65
1987 Bulls: 3.67
1985 Bulls: 4.09
_________________________________________
1984 Bulls: 3.91
1983 Bulls: 4.18
1982 Bulls: 3.98
1981 Bulls: 4.28
1980 Bulls: 3.89
1979 Bulls: 3.88
1978 Bulls: 3.93
1977 Bulls: 4.12
1976 Bulls: 4.82
1975 Bulls: 4.45

^^^ MORE PASSING WITH MJ (LESS POSSESSIONS PER ASSIST)

[3ball]

Heat:

With LeBron - 4.27
Without LeBron - 4.55


Cavs:

With LeBron - 4.41
Without LeBron - 4.48


Bulls:

With MJ - 3.64
Without MJ - 4.14


As you can see - the Heat only improved 0.18 with Lebron, and the Cavs didn't improve at all, only 0.07.

Otoh, MJ's Bulls improved exactly 0.50.. They went frorm 4.14 without MJ, to 3.64 with MJ.

So you're wrong and I'm right - MJ improved the Bulls a lot, while Lebron didn't improve the Cavs at all, and his Heat barely improved - they improved less than half as much as MJ's Bulls (Bosh being moved to 3-point shooter and the addition of Ray Allen made the difference in 2013 and 2014)

[Straight_Ballin]

He can if he's never watched Bird before and only sees highlights

Most real old people that have seen both believe Lebron is better

This post is pure speculation and not even remotely true.

I watched both play live and Lebron by the eye test is not the better player of the 2 all things considered.

http://www.celticsblog.com/2015/1/7/7507079/the-story-of-how-rookie-phenom-larry-bird-led-the-nbas-greatest

[dubeta]

(Bosh being moved to 3-point shooter and the addition of Ray Allen made the difference in 2013 and 2014)

So you have no answers for 2013 and 2014?


Bosh was a spot up shooter in 2012 as well and the Heat always had shooters from 2011-2014, Adding Ray didnt change anything. No difference roster wise from 2012-2014.

[SHAQisGOAT]

This post is pure speculation and not even remotely true.

I watched both play live and Lebron by the eye test is not the better player of the 2 all things considered.

http://www.celticsblog.com/2015/1/7/7507079/the-story-of-how-rookie-phenom-larry-bird-led-the-nbas-greatest

:applause:

Larry was a better shooter from pretty much everywhere, had a better post-game, better footwork, better soft-touch from close-range (with both hands), was a better off-ball player, a better rebounder, better pure passer, better team and post defender, better leader, better in the clutch, better at adapting to any type of teammates and playing-style...
James is definitely a better athlete and thus benefiting from everything that comes with it; he's a better overall defensive player, a better finisher at the rim, better at running on the fastbreak, better suited to play PG...

People who've seen both at their respective best, can tell that Bird was a better overall player... Extremely close but still clear.

And rookie Bird led one of the greatest turnaround seasons ever, he was then champion by in his 2nd year, for the 1984 Playoffs he displayed one of the very best "carry jobs" of all-time (better than any of LeBron's), in 1986 with everything clicking he was the centerpiece for what many call the GOAT team... He was the main-man from the get-go, building a dynasty for the ground up, playing in the most competitive era for teams, superstars and SF's...
Celtics were shitty before he got there, WAY better when he got there, considerably worse again when he was out, even much better again when he returned as a shell of his former self, and shitty again for many years right after he retired.
Apart from all of the rest, he has all that^ to "back him up".

That's that... LeBron fanboys stay mad and stay trolling though :lol

[3ball]

So you have no asnwers for 2013 and 2014


I already said the answer - the Heat's assist frequency only improved 0.18 with Lebron, and the Cavs didn't improve at all, only 0.07.

Otoh, MJ's Bulls improved exactly 0.50.. They went from 4.14 without MJ, to 3.64 with MJ.

MJ materially improved the assist frequency of his teams, while Lebron did not.

[Indian guy]

Actual on-court production is so heavily stacked in LeBron's favor, in both regular season and particularly in the playoffs, that there's simply no argument for Bird being the superior basketball player. His stans' entire argument boils down his superior offensive skill-set, until you realize LeBron scored more on better efficiency, and led superior offensive teams too. Bird has no argument. None.

[dubeta]

:applause:

Larry was a better shooter from pretty much everywhere, had a better post-game, better footwork, better soft-touch from close-range (with both hands), was a better off-ball player, a better rebounder, better pure passer, better team and post defender...
James is definitely a better athlete and thus benefiting from everything that comes with it; he's a better overall defensive player, a better finisher at the rim, better at running on the fastbreak, better suited to play PG...

People who've seen both at their respective best, can tell that Bird was a better overall player... Extremely close but still clear.




This guy cant be serious :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


10 bucks says he never saw Bird play

[Le Shaqtus]

This guy cant be serious :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


10 bucks says he never saw Bird play

Do you even basketball? LeBron doesn't even have an offball game :lol

[3ball]

Actual on-court production is so heavily stacked in LeBron's favor, in both regular season and particularly in the playoffs, that there's simply no argument for Bird being the superior basketball player. His stans' entire argument boils down his superior offensive skill-set, until you realize LeBron scored more on better efficiency, and led superior offensive teams too. Bird has no argument. None.
Having Bird on your team allows your team to play smart and use the best strategy, like the Spurs.

Otoh, Lebron prevents his teams from playing like the Spurs or other teams considered "smart", like the Warriors or Mavs.

Lebron's teams are dumb teams that get by on talent, not brand of basketball..

[dubeta]

Do you even basketball? LeBron doesn't even have an offball game :lol

LOL arent you the waiter who gets pissed when customers dont pay you more than a 15% tip? Like some sort of entitled brat. Your opinion is worthless





You and 20four should work together and start your own restaurant, finally do something with your pathetic lives :lol

[Dr Hawk]

Having Bird on your team allows your team to play smart and use the best strategy, like the Spurs.

Otoh, Lebron prevents his teams from playing like the Spurs or other teams considered "smart", like the Warriors or Mavs.

Lebron's teams are dumb teams that get by on talent, not brand of basketball.

this

[Straight_Ballin]

LOL arent you the waiter who gets pissed when customers dont pay you more than a 15% tip? Like some sort of entitled brat. Your opinion is worthless





You and 20four should work together and start your own restaurant, finally do something with your pathetic lives :lol

How fitting that a fan of a guy that doesn't believe in giving tips (LBJ) would say something like this.

http://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2011/08/lebron_james_is_no_4_on_nbc_sp.html

My friend used to drive for a limo service and said Bron gave him a $1 tip. :lol

I guess that's what happens when you didn't have a father to teach you right from wrong when growing up.

[SHAQisGOAT]

This guy cant be serious :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:


10 bucks says he never saw Bird play

You really think it's funny to act that dumb? :rolleyes: :facepalm

As the saying goes... Never go full retard.



Having Bird on your team allows your team to play smart and use the best strategy, like the Spurs.

Otoh, Lebron prevents his teams from playing like the Spurs or other teams considered "smart", like the Warriors or Mavs.

Lebron's teams are dumb teams that get by on talent, not brand of basketball..

Very true.

And that nikka talking about LeBron leading superior offensive teams :wtf: :facepalm
Bird led what many call the GOAT team, playing one of the best, most beautiful types of basketball you'll ever see... Team built from the ground up while LeBron joined two of the best players in the league and they never came close to that dominance or play, then James ended up bolting again when things were going south.

Plus...
-What Bird did right when he joined the Celtics, LeBron never could match and never did.
-For the 1984 Playoffs, Bird had a better "carry job" than anything LeBron ever did of that nature, or could ever muster.
-1986 Larry was at a level, as an overall basketball player, that LeBron has never quite reached.

[3ball]

You really think it's funny to act that dumb? :rolleyes: :facepalm

As the saying goes... Never go full retard.




Very true.

And that nikka talking about LeBron leading superior offensive teams :wtf: :facepalm
Bird led what many call the GOAT team, playing one of the best, most beautiful basketball you'll ever see... Team built from the ground up while LeBron joined two of the best players in the league and they never came close to that dominance or play, then James ended up bolting again when things were going south.

Plus...
-What Bird right when he joined the Celtics, LeBron never could match and never did.
-For the 1984 Playoffs, Bird had a better "carry job" than anything LeBron ever did of that nature, or could muster.
-1986 Larry was at a level, as an overall basketball player, that LeBron has never quite reached.


Exactly... And it required far more skill to achieve all-time stats within a smart, cutting edge, WINNING framework and style of play like Bird did, then the stat-friendly, easily-solvable, grade-school level, playground style that Lebron subjugates his team to.

[DaOldLion]

why people even respond to dubeta is beyond me

[sportjames23]

dubeta getting his shit pushed in. :oldlol:

[JT123]

So boiled down, all the non trolls agree that Bron is a tier above Bird. :applause: :bowdown:

[riseagainst]

dam.... dubeta getting his sh1t kicked in in every thread he makes.

poor little boy.

:roll:

[dubeta]

So boiled down, all the non trolls agree that Bron is a tier above Bird. :applause: :bowdown:

Agreed, the stats clearly favour LeBron.

10 pages in and still no real reason why Bird is better than LeBron, just a bunch of trolling and subjective facts/opinions from ISH's brightest.


But oh well, I guess thats ISH for you

[Odinn]

Agreed, the stats clearly favour LeBron.

10 pages in and still no real reason why Bird is better than LeBron, just a bunch of trolling and subjective facts/opinions from ISH's brightest.


But oh well, I guess thats ISH for you
Wrong.

There are reasons but no brain.

[Dro]

Bird is still the better offensive player (in the post, footwork, passer, shooter from 3 and midrange) and rebounder.

Aside from athleticism? The only definitive aspects LeBron has over Bird are defense and finishing around the basket.

LeBron is climbing his way up the all-time list, still think he's behind Larry there too.
Pretty much this. Lebron is not a better player than Bird. No matter what trolls like Dubeta think..and who cares anyway? He's a troll...:confusedshrug:

[Dro]

Agreed, the stats clearly favour LeBron.

10 pages in and still no real reason why Bird is better than LeBron, just a bunch of trolling and subjective facts/opinions from ISH's brightest.


But oh well, I guess thats ISH for you
Please, just like every other thread....you completely ignore all the facts thrown your way unless its coming from a fellow Lebron stan and then come back and act like nobody has posted any good arguments:rolleyes:

[Dro]

why people even respond to dubeta is beyond me
:confusedshrug:

I fell for it again also.......Its just when you see a guy continuously posting such bs, its hard to ignore him. All he does is look at box scores. I don't think he actually watches games...

[dubeta]

Please, just like every other thread....you completely ignore all the facts thrown your way unless its coming from a fellow Lebron stan and then come back and act like nobody has posted any good arguments:rolleyes:

Okay? Argue for Bird then. I showed everyone LeBrons stats are much better

[JT123]

Okay? Argue for Bird then. I showed everyone LeBrons stats are much better
The only argument anyone has made is that Bird had a more versatile scoring skill set. Even if that were true, (it isn't) what does that matter when he scored fewer points than Lebron on WORSE efficiency? :facepalm

[HurricaneKid]

You really think it's funny to act that dumb? :rolleyes: :facepalm

As the saying goes... Never go full retard.




Very true.

And that nikka talking about LeBron leading superior offensive teams :wtf: :facepalm
Bird led what many call the GOAT team, playing one of the best, most beautiful types of basketball you'll ever see... Team built from the ground up while LeBron joined two of the best players in the league and they never came close to that dominance or play, then James ended up bolting again when things were going south.

Plus...
-What Bird did right when he joined the Celtics, LeBron never could match and never did.
-For the 1984 Playoffs, Bird had a better "carry job" than anything LeBron ever did of that nature, or could ever muster.
-1986 Larry was at a level, as an overall basketball player, that LeBron has never quite reached.

The Cavs when LeBron wasn't in in 09 was a -5.64 SRS team. Thats a ~22 win team. With LeBron they were +15.6 and won 66 games, 10th all time. That is more than joining 3 HoFers and losing like Bird did.

Bird was great in 84. LeBron was great in 2012.

86 Bird is great but creeping up on overrated. He made 82 3s. That would have been #91 in the league last season. He had FOUR HoF teammates that year as well.

LeBron has CARRIED his teams offensively. You can certainly complain about LeBron ball but there is no sense in suggesting it isn't effective. Miami ranked #19 offensively the season before he got there and #21 the season after he left. While he was there they were #2, #3, #5, and #8. So with LBJ, they avg #4.5. Without him they were #20. Cle had a very similar path with and without him. With him in 09 they were the #4 offense. And #6 in 2010. Then without him in 11, 12, 13, and 14 they were #29, #24, #19, #22, then with him in 2015 they were back up to #3. So with him over the last 7 years - #4.3 offense. Without him they were #24.3.

So next time 3Ball throws some garbage stat that means nothing, just look at his impact on the offenses he plays on. Because its enormous.

[JT123]

The Cavs when LeBron wasn't in in 09 was a -5.64 SRS team. Thats a ~22 win team. With LeBron they were +15.6 and won 66 games, 10th all time. That is more than joining 3 HoFers and losing like Bird did.

Bird was great in 84. LeBron was great in 2012.

86 Bird is great but creeping up on overrated. He made 82 3s. That would have been #91 in the league last season. He had FOUR HoF teammates that year as well.

LeBron has CARRIED his teams offensively. You can certainly complain about LeBron ball but there is no sense in suggesting it isn't effective. Miami ranked #19 offensively the season before he got there and #21 the season after he left. While he was there they were #2, #3, #5, and #8. So with LBJ, they avg #4.5. Without him they were #20. Cle had a very similar path with and without him. With him in 09 they were the #4 offense. And #6 in 2010. Then without him in 11, 12, 13, and 14 they were #29, #24, #19, #22, then with him in 2015 they were back up to #3. So with him over the last 7 years - #4.3 offense. Without him they were #24.3.

So next time 3Ball throws some garbage stat that means nothing, just look at his impact on the offenses he plays on. Because its enormous.
Ether

[Straight_Ballin]

The Cavs when LeBron wasn't in in 09 was a -5.64 SRS team. Thats a ~22 win team. With LeBron they were +15.6 and won 66 games, 10th all time. That is more than joining 3 HoFers and losing like Bird did.

Bird was great in 84. LeBron was great in 2012.

86 Bird is great but creeping up on overrated. He made 82 3s. That would have been #91 in the league last season. He had FOUR HoF teammates that year as well.

LeBron has CARRIED his teams offensively. You can certainly complain about LeBron ball but there is no sense in suggesting it isn't effective. Miami ranked #19 offensively the season before he got there and #21 the season after he left. While he was there they were #2, #3, #5, and #8. So with LBJ, they avg #4.5. Without him they were #20. Cle had a very similar path with and without him. With him in 09 they were the #4 offense. And #6 in 2010. Then without him in 11, 12, 13, and 14 they were #29, #24, #19, #22, then with him in 2015 they were back up to #3. So with him over the last 7 years - #4.3 offense. Without him they were #24.3.

So next time 3Ball throws some garbage stat that means nothing, just look at his impact on the offenses he plays on. Because its enormous.

I stopped reading right at the bolded part. ALL teams back then shot much less 3's relative to ALL teams of today. Try again.

[Rocketswin2013]

The Cavs when LeBron wasn't in in 09 was a -5.64 SRS team. Thats a ~22 win team. With LeBron they were +15.6 and won 66 games, 10th all time. That is more than joining 3 HoFers and losing like Bird did.

Bird was great in 84. LeBron was great in 2012.

86 Bird is great but creeping up on overrated. He made 82 3s. That would have been #91 in the league last season. He had FOUR HoF teammates that year as well.

LeBron has CARRIED his teams offensively. You can certainly complain about LeBron ball but there is no sense in suggesting it isn't effective. Miami ranked #19 offensively the season before he got there and #21 the season after he left. While he was there they were #2, #3, #5, and #8. So with LBJ, they avg #4.5. Without him they were #20. Cle had a very similar path with and without him. With him in 09 they were the #4 offense. And #6 in 2010. Then without him in 11, 12, 13, and 14 they were #29, #24, #19, #22, then with him in 2015 they were back up to #3. So with him over the last 7 years - #4.3 offense. Without him they were #24.3.

So next time 3Ball throws some garbage stat that means nothing, just look at his impact on the offenses he plays on. Because its enormous.
This is true. LeBron turned actual garbage into an elite team in 2009. Similar story with 2010.

Also, if 1984 is a carry job, then so is 2013(I don't believe that is fully the case).

Except LeBron didn't get outplayed by a teammate in his Finals game 7.

Bird in the '84 Finals G7: 20/12/32 .464 TS%(6/18 from the field)

Maxwell: 24/8/8/2 .686 TS%

Bird was also benched by Jones down the stretch of that game.

People would never let LeBron live such a shitty big game performance down.

[HurricaneKid]

I stopped reading right at the bolded part. ALL teams back then shot much less 3's relative to ALL teams of today. Try again.

If the one cat Bird wins is shooting, and it certainly is where he is demonstrably better, he needs to contribute more in that category for it to impact the overall equation. His lack of makes limits the exposure to his prized skill set.

[3ball]

Lebron's style is effective because he led top 5 offenses



Nash, Kevin Johnson, Karl Malone and many other players have led top 5 offenses as well.. It means nothing.

The point is that Lebron achieves his stats by significantly lowering the PPG and APG of teammates - this is statistical fact.. With his teammates not playing to capacity, the TEAM can't play to capacity and underperforms.. It's always easier to rack up stats if you're reducing teammates' stats and are employing a stat-friendly, easily-solvable, playground style, rather than trying to win.






The Cavs when LeBron wasn't in in 09 was a -5.64 SRS team. Thats a ~22 win team. With LeBron they were +15.6 and won 66 games, 10th all time.


Pretty much all teams throughout history were significantly worse when their best player wasn't on the floor.. It's standard.. The fact that it happens with Lebron isn't amazing or unique.

Btw, regarding the first response above - in addition to reducing the ppg and apg of teammates, Lebron also increases their assisted rate - this proves he turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers, which prevents the kind of equal-opportunity offenses used by teams that are considered cutting edge, like Spurs, Warriors, 90's Bulls.. But since Lebron's teams play a dumb style and not the best brand of basketball, they're susceptible to being upset by equal or lesser talented teams that are playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).
.

[KevinNYC]

LeBron has twice as many 3pters made as Bird. And thats supposed to be the one area Bird crushes him.

Well when you take 3671 compared to 1727 you can make up a lot of room.

This mainly reflects the changing of the game where every team is taking more threes.

I think your other points have validity, but this one does not.

[aj1987]

As you can see - the Heat only improved 0.18 with Lebron, and the Cavs didn't improve at all, only 0.07.

Otoh, MJ's Bulls improved exactly 0.50.. They went frorm 4.14 without MJ, to 3.64 with MJ.

So you're wrong and I'm right - MJ improved the Bulls a lot, while Lebron didn't improve the Cavs at all, and his Heat barely improved - they improved less than half as much as MJ's Bulls (Bosh being moved to 3-point shooter and the addition of Ray Allen made the difference in 2013 and 2014)
Why the **** are you comparing MJ to LeBron. They're not even on the same tier. MJ is the GOAT and LeBron is ~10th all time.

How ****ing insecure do you have to be to validate MJ's greatness by comparing him to LeBron all the time?

[DaOldLion]

:confusedshrug:

I fell for it again also.......Its just when you see a guy continuously posting such bs, its hard to ignore him. All he does is look at box scores. I don't think he actually watches games...

he's the most active poster on the site and he hasn't even attempted to make an honest post yet

[Straight_Ballin]

Why the **** are you comparing MJ to LeBron. They're not even on the same tier. MJ is the GOAT and LeBron is ~10th all time.

How ****ing insecure do you have to be to validate MJ's greatness by comparing him to LeBron all the time?

You think MJ is GOAT.
3ball thinks MJ is GOAT.

You call him insecure for posting about something that you agree with?
Since when the hell is making a statement about the obvious (Jordan>Bron) a sign of insecurity? Is this some kind of new ISH logic?

:biggums:

[KevinNYC]

Bird was also benched by Jones down the stretch of that game.
Down the stretch? Bird hit four foul shots at the end of the game and fought his way off the court as the fans stormed the floor.

That game is online.
https://youtu.be/PxOMKMr4pHQ?t=6882

Bird played the last four minutes and secured the win as LA almost made a comeback.

[aj1987]

You think MJ is GOAT.
3ball thinks MJ is GOAT.

You call him insecure for posting about something that you agree with?
Since when the hell is making a statement about the obvious (Jordan>Bron) a sign of insecurity? Is this some kind of new ISH logic?

:biggums:
:facepalm :facepalm

I'm calling him insecure, because that's the only thing he does, moron.

[Straight_Ballin]

:facepalm :facepalm

I'm calling him insecure, because that's the only thing he does, moron.

Might wanna look up that definition. Posting facts has nothing to do with insecurity. :lol

[aj1987]

Might wanna look up that definition. Posting facts has nothing to do with insecurity. :lol
You MJ stans are an extremely retarded and insecure bunch. Worse than both LeBron and Kobe stans combined.

[Kovach]

You MJ stans are an extremely retarded and insecure bunch. Worse than both LeBron and Kobe stans combined.
This sounds like a very secure comment.

[sportjames23]

You MJ stans are an extremely retarded and insecure bunch. Worse than both LeBron and Kobe stans combined.


Someone's butt is surely sore. :oldlol:

[aj1987]

This sounds like a very secure comment.
I'm not the one creating a dozen threads a day comparing MJ and LeBron (3ball). Nor do I have an account dedicated to hating on LeBron or any other player as a matter of fact.


Someone's butt is surely sore. :oldlol:
Because I said MJ's the GOAT and he's on an entirely different tier than LeBron?

Yeah, as I said, you MJ stans are dumber than LeTurds and Kobe stans put together.

[3ball]

I'm not the one creating a dozen threads a day comparing MJ and LeBron (3ball). Nor do I have an account dedicated to hating on LeBron or any other player as a matter of fact.

Because I said MJ's the GOAT and he's on an entirely different tier than LeBron?

Yeah, as I said, you MJ stans are dumber than LeTurds and Kobe stans put together.


Check out #3 aj1987 - you helped me hone that argument... Indeed, it's all about how each guy IMPROVED their teams assist frequency (Lebron barely or none at all, and MJ materially).


1) Lebron isn't capable of good efficiency at high shot volume

The 27 shots per game that Lebron took in 2015 playoffs can't be achieved on all 3-and-D.. But unfortunately, Lebron is poor at the additional midrange and 1-on-1 required of high volume shooting - this is statistical fact - since he can't shoot well at high volume, he doesn't require/command a double team.. No other top 15 player has these horrible indictments on their game.


2) Lebron's poor midrange and 1-on-1 ability means he wouldn't be as good in the 80's

Lebron's poor 1-on-1 and midrange efficiency also prevents him from being as good in the 80's, when these were the primary options remaining in the absence of the 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile (driving and kicking for 2-pointers isn't worthwhile by comparison).. Without teammates spreading the floor with threes to make drive-and-kick the force it is today, Lebron would have to score a much higher proportion via 1-on-1 and mid-range like everyone else in the 80's - since his efficiency in very poor in these areas, we know for a fact he would be a lesser player back then.


3) Lebron's low-assisted play reduces teammates' assist opportunities and doesn't positively impact his team's assist frequency

Starting fives normally have only 1 ball-dominant, low-assisted player that teammates rarely throw assists to - the point guard - but Lebron's point guard style from the forward position adds a 2nd low-assisted player that teammates can't throw assists to, which lowers the assist capacity of the team - not surprisingly, Lebron's presence didn't improve the assist frequency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446) of his Heat and Cavs teams.. Otoh, MJ was a highly-assisted, off-ball player, so his presence significantly increased the assist frequency of the Bulls' teams, as the data linked above shows.


4) Lebron's presence as an extra point guard results in a concentration of playmaking responsibilities among the 2 point guards, which reduces the APG of remaining teammates and prevents more optimal, equal-opportunity offenses

The APG and assist % of teammates crater alongside Lebron (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841), while their assisted rate increases - this proves Lebron's presence as an extra point guard turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers, thus preventing the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that the Mavs, Spurs, Warriors, and 90's Bulls used (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s), where all 5 guys share the playmaking duties - since Lebron prevents an equitable, optimal brand of basketball, his teams are susceptible to equal or less-talented opponents pulling upsets by playing a more equitable/better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).


5) Lebron achieves his stats at the expense of teammates and by employing a stat-friendly, losing style

The fact that Lebron usually leads a top 5 offense is not noteworthy.. Nash, Kevin Johnson, Karl Malone and many other players have led top 5 offenses as well.. It means nothing.. Otoh, Lebron's stats lack integrity because he achieves them at the expense of teammates - as previously shown, it's a statistical fact that Lebron significantly lowers the PPG and APG of teammates... With Lebron's production preventing teammates from playing to capacity (lower ppg, apg), the TEAM can't play to capacity and underperforms (2009, 2011, 2014).. His stat accumulation is also helped by employing a stat-friendly, easily-solvable, playground style, rather than getting his stats within a more equal-opportunity offense that can win.

[aj1987]

Check out #3 aj1987 - you helped me hone that argument... Indeed, it's all about how each guy IMPROVED their teams assist frequency (Lebron barely or none at all, and MJ materially).


1) Lebron isn't capable of good efficiency at high shot volume

The 27 shots per game that Lebron took in 2015 playoffs can't be achieved on all 3-and-D.. But unfortunately, Lebron is poor at the additional midrange and 1-on-1 required of high volume shooting - this is statistical fact - since he can't shoot well at high volume, he doesn't require/command a double team.. No other top 15 player has these horrible indictments on their game.


2) Lebron's poor midrange and 1-on-1 ability means he wouldn't be as good in the 80's

Lebron's poor 1-on-1 and midrange efficiency also prevents him from being as good in the 80's, when these were the primary options remaining in the absence of the 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile (driving and kicking for 2-pointers isn't worthwhile by comparison).. Without teammates spreading the floor with threes to make drive-and-kick the force it is today, Lebron would have to score a much higher proportion via 1-on-1 and mid-range like everyone else in the 80's - since his efficiency in very poor in these areas, we know for a fact he would be a lesser player back then.


3) Lebron's low-assisted play reduces teammates' assist opportunities and doesn't positively impact his team's assist frequency

Starting fives normally have only 1 ball-dominant, low-assisted player that teammates rarely throw assists to - the point guard - but Lebron's point guard style from the forward position adds a 2nd low-assisted player that teammates can't throw assists to, which lowers the assist capacity of the team - not surprisingly, Lebron's presence didn't improve the assist frequency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446) of his Heat and Cavs teams.. Otoh, MJ was a highly-assisted, off-ball player, so his presence significantly increased the assist frequency of the Bulls' teams, as the data linked above shows.


4) Lebron's presence as an extra point guard results in a concentration of playmaking responsibilities among the 2 point guards, which reduces the APG of remaining teammates and prevents more optimal, equal-opportunity offenses

The APG and assist % of teammates crater alongside Lebron (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841), while their assisted rate increases - this proves Lebron's presence as an extra point guard turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers, thus preventing the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that the Mavs, Spurs, Warriors, and 90's Bulls used (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s), where all 5 guys share the playmaking duties - since Lebron prevents an equitable, optimal brand of basketball, his teams are susceptible to equal or less-talented opponents pulling upsets by playing a more equitable/better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).


5) Lebron achieves his stats at the expense of teammates and by employing a stat-friendly, losing style

The fact that Lebron usually leads a top 5 offense is not noteworthy.. Nash, Kevin Johnson, Karl Malone and many other players have led top 5 offenses as well.. It means nothing.. Otoh, Lebron's stats lack integrity because he achieves them at the expense of teammates - as previously shown, it's a statistical fact that Lebron significantly lowers the PPG and APG of teammates... With Lebron's production preventing teammates from playing to capacity (lower ppg, apg), the TEAM can't play to capacity and underperforms (2009, 2011, 2014).. His stat accumulation is also helped by employing a stat-friendly, easily-solvable, playground style, rather than getting his stats within a more equal-opportunity offense that can win.


Again, why are you comparing LeBron to MJ??! They're not even on the same tier!

**** it, I'm out. You're an insecure moron and continue doing what you do.



As for #3, I've already pointed out that LeBron does in fact help with the assisting.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11695332&postcount=37

Dude led the Cav's to their only two Finals EVER and the Heat to 4 straight Finals (only been done twice before) and a repeat. Also, literally everything you post about LeBron can be attributed to the coach. Lets see him play with a GOAT tier coach like Pop or PJax and then we can talk. Not to mention, Pip was the playmaker on the Bulls and not MJ.

[sportjames23]

I'm not the one creating a dozen threads a day comparing MJ and LeBron (3ball). Nor do I have an account dedicated to hating on LeBron or any other player as a matter of fact.


Because I said MJ's the GOAT and he's on an entirely different tier than LeBron?

Yeah, as I said, you MJ stans are dumber than LeTurds and Kobe stans put together.


Yeah, someone's booty is real sore.

[aj1987]

Yeah, someone's booty is real sore.
Yeah. You're been getting it real hard from MJ it seems.

[Lebron23]

Yeah. You're been getting it real hard from MJ it seems.


:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[3ball]

Look at his '06 RS and PO's and the '09 PO's.


He only attempted 22 and 23.6 shots per game in those years, compared to 27.1 this year.. That's by far the most he's ever taken.





So, you're calling the '80's players/coaches dumb?


Super-dumb.

Their foolish positioning of players closer to the rim (instead of shooting threes) activated the legal paint-camping provision in the Illegal Defense Guidelines - rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) said defenders could remain in the paint "with no time restriction" if their man was already in the paint or within 3 feet of either side.

Obviously, the lack of 3-point shooting and spacing meant the necessary conditions for unlimited paint-camping were always happening (players being in the paint or near the paint).





If a player like Lebron were transported to the 80's, he'd be raining 3's on them till they cry.


Maybe, but his teammates wouldn't be... It's not worthwhile to drive and kick for 2-pointers, so without teammates shooting 3-pointers, Lebron would have to score via midrange like everyone else back then.





So, it means NOTHING that MJ did it as well, right?


Right, because a lot of guys have top 5 team offenses.. The more important factor is that MJ's teams played to CAPACITY because his teammates played to capacity alongside him.. MJ's teams never lost to a lower seed or when they had HCA, which proves they played to capacity.

Otoh, Lebron's stats lack integrity because he achieves them at the expense of teammates - with Lebron's production preventing teammates from playing to capacity, the TEAM can't play to capacity and underperforms (2009, 2011, 2014).





Significantly? 0.3 and 0.6 is not significant. Also, Bosh's and Love's numbers are BOUND to drop, when they play with two other 20+ PPG scorers.


Not at all - Love and Bosh's assist opportunities should be higher playing alongside high scoring forwards, since forwards are normally high-assisted players and big targets for teammates to find for assists.

However, Lebron isn't a highly-assisted player like all other forwards are... Instead, he's a low-assisted ball-dominator, which lowers the assist opportunities for Love and Bosh.. But alongside your typically, highly-assisted forward, Love and Bosh's assist opportunities would go up.





The Heat players got their stats in '11. LeBron's stats dropped and the Heat lost. That absolutely DESTROYS your argument that LeBron getting his stats diminishes his teams performance.


That MAKES my argument that Lebron can only get stats by diminishing his teammates stats - but he simply didn't get his stats in 2011, so his teammates were able to get theirs.. But any other year, Lebron gets his stats, which means his teammates don't.

Btw, Lebron's stat accumulation is also helped by employing a stat-friendly, easily-solvable, losing, playground style, rather than the superior, nuanced skill required to achieve stats within an equal-opportunity offense that can actually win.
.

[HurricaneKid]

Well when you take 3671 compared to 1727 you can make up a lot of room.

This mainly reflects the changing of the game where every team is taking more threes.

I think your other points have validity, but this one does not.

If your advantage over another player is XXXXX but you never XXXXX, it doesn't matter that you XXXXX better.

OF COURSE IT MATTERS IF BIRD UTILIZED HIS BEST ATTRIBUTE.

[sd3035]

In this thread I see tremendous insecurity being displayed by a very sensitive Lebald stan masquerading as a Wade fan.

[HurricaneKid]

Nash, Kevin Johnson, Karl Malone and many other players have led top 5 offenses as well.. It means nothing.

The point is that Lebron achieves his stats by significantly lowering the PPG and APG of teammates - this is statistical fact.. With his teammates not playing to capacity, the TEAM can't play to capacity and underperforms.. It's always easier to rack up stats if you're reducing teammates' stats and are employing a stat-friendly, easily-solvable, playground style, rather than trying to win.




Pretty much all teams throughout history were significantly worse when their best player wasn't on the floor.. It's standard.. The fact that it happens with Lebron isn't amazing or unique.

Btw, regarding the first response above - in addition to reducing the ppg and apg of teammates, Lebron also increases their assisted rate - this proves he turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers, which prevents the kind of equal-opportunity offenses used by teams that are considered cutting edge, like Spurs, Warriors, 90's Bulls.. But since Lebron's teams play a dumb style and not the best brand of basketball, they're susceptible to being upset by equal or lesser talented teams that are playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).
.

This is willfully stupid.

The only thing that matters is offensive efficiency. Do you realize your comically obtuse campaign to compare assts to baskets from the 80s to current teams is more dependent on the notoriously home friendly scorekeepers than any basketball? AND it has no bearing on offensive efficiency.

And BTW, ALL his teammates are more efficient with him around. And NO, not every great player has the impact that LeBron had in 09. In fact, you will find ZERO comparables since that stat was kept (last ~17 years).

I'm done arguing with a brick wall with no grasp of statistical analysis nor basketball with an agenda so transparent he has become the laughingstock of the site.

[Paul George 24]

Career per 100 possession stats

LeBron

36.9 points 9.3 asssists 9.3 rebounds 2.3 steals 1.1 blocks

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html


Bird

30.3 points 7.9 assists 12.5 rebounds 2.2 steals 1.0 blocks

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01.html



Not only does LeBron already put up much better stats than Bird but when you look at it in terms of per 100 possessions the difference is even greater. LeBron is statistically an entire tier above Bird.



lol

rekt :lol
U STILL ALIVE :wtf:

[aj1987]

He only attempted 22 and 23.6 shots per game in those years, compared to 27.1 this year.. That's by far the most he's ever taken.
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

21 games in the PO's in which he played with rejects. Yeah.


Super-dumb.

Their foolish positioning of players closer to the rim (instead of shooting threes) activated the legal paint-camping provision in the Illegal Defense Guidelines - rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) said defenders could remain in the paint "with no time restriction" if their man was already in the paint or within 3 feet of either side.
Yep, super dumb. Having 3pt snipers allows to spread the floor. Defenders will need to be more cautions on who they leave open. In the '80's, it was go into the paint and take a contested midrange shot, which is dumb. Spacing the floor and scoring is the better option.


Obviously, the lack of 3-point shooting and spacing meant the necessary conditions for unlimited paint-camping were always happening (players being in the paint or near the paint).
They were too dumb to use the 3pt shot.... :confusedshrug:


Maybe, but his teammates wouldn't be... It's not worthwhile to drive and kick for 2-pointers, so without teammates shooting 3-pointers, Lebron would have to score via midrange like everyone else back then.
No, he wouldn't. He would tell his teammates to hit those 3pt shots. According to YOUR LOGIC, if LeBron gets teleported to the '80's, he's gonna tell the shooters to stay at the 3pt line and make them take those 3pt shots. That would absolutely destroy those defenses (again, according to your logic, they wouldn't defend the 3) by raining 3's.


Right, because a lot of guys have top 5 team offenses.. The more important factor is that MJ's teams played to CAPACITY because his teammates played to capacity alongside him.. MJ's teams never lost to a lower seed or when they had HCA, which proves they played to capacity.

Otoh, Lebron's stats lack integrity because he achieves them at the expense of teammates - with Lebron's production preventing teammates from playing to capacity, the TEAM can't play to capacity and underperforms (2009, 2011, 2014).
tl;dr - It only matters when MJ does it.


Not at all - Love and Bosh's assist opportunities should be higher playing alongside high scoring forwards, since forwards are normally high-assisted players and big targets for teammates to find for assists.

However, Lebron isn't a highly-assisted player like all other forwards are... Instead, he's a low-assisted ball-dominator, which lowers the assist opportunities for Love and Bosh.. But alongside your typically, highly-assisted forward, Love and Bosh's assist opportunities would go up.
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Dumbass, LeBron is a point forward. He's not a traditional SF/PF.


That MAKES my argument that Lebron can only get stats by diminishing his teammates stats - but he simply didn't get his stats in 2011, so his teammates were able to get theirs.. But any other year, Lebron gets his stats, which means his teammates don't.
Do you want to look at the '11 RS stats? Or the '11 PO stats prior to the Finals?

Did you even watch the 2011 ECSF?


Btw, Lebron's stat accumulation is also helped by employing a stat-friendly, easily-solvable, losing, playground style, rather than the superior, nuanced skill required to achieve stats within an equal-opportunity offense that can actually win.
.
You literally could say the same thing about MJ. He had his best scoring seasons and PO's when he lost. According to your logic, Pippen basically SAVED his career.

You still duck this question, but did you actually EVER watch a SINGLE game?

[dubeta]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

21 games in the PO's in which he played with rejects. Yeah.


Yep, super dumb. Having 3pt snipers allows to spread the floor. Defenders will need to be more cautions on who they leave open. In the '80's, it was go into the paint and take a contested midrange shot, which is dumb. Spacing the floor and scoring is the better option.


They were too dumb to use the 3pt shot.... :confusedshrug:


No, he wouldn't. He would tell his teammates to hit those 3pt shots. According to YOUR LOGIC, if LeBron gets teleported to the '80's, he's gonna tell the shooters to stay at the 3pt line and make them take those 3pt shots. That would absolutely destroy those defenses (again, according to your logic, they wouldn't defend the 3) by raining 3's.


tl;dr - It only matters when MJ does it.


:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Dumbass, LeBron is a point forward. He's not a traditional SF/PF.


Do you want to look at the '11 RS stats? Or the '11 PO stats prior to the Finals?

Did you even watch the 2011 ECSF?


You literally could say the same thing about MJ. He had his best scoring seasons and PO's when he lost. According to your logic, Pippen basically SAVED his career.

You still duck this question, but did you actually EVER watch a SINGLE game?


Bro you're getting trolled pretty bad :lol





Just ignore it and move on


He's trolling you by basically copy and pasting (ctrl V) to your essays. It's not worth the time

[OldSchoolBBall]

Career per 100 possession stats

LeBron

36.9 points 9.3 asssists 9.3 rebounds 2.3 steals 1.1 blocks

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html


Bird

30.3 points 7.9 assists 12.5 rebounds 2.2 steals 1.0 blocks

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01.html



Not only does LeBron already put up much better stats than Bird but when you look at it in terms of per 100 possessions the difference is even greater. LeBron is statistically an entire tier above Bird.



lol

rekt :lol

Good, now account for how many more of those 100 TEAM possessions that Lebron HIMSELF actually uses as compared to Bird. Better yet, let's measure time of possession for each of them for an entire game. Yeah...I thought so.

Star players today - Lebron being the poster child - use FAR more of their team's possessions than older stars did, and they have the ball in their hands FAR more in terms of clock time. I wouldn't be surprised if Lebron had the ball in his hands in the halfcourt literally 25-50% more than Bird in terms of clock time (saying halfcourt here to exclude the time when James brings the ball upcourt).

[Duncan21formvp]

Bird is still considered better by most.

[TheCorporation]

Bird is still considered better by most.

The guy with less FMVP, MVP, points, rebounds, and assists? Nah

Sounds like he could be ranked over Mike though, since he waxed that ass 6-0

[Mr.GOAT2408]

Per 100 is nice and all but it doesn't tell you the full story, the Celtics were a machine largely because of Bird's ability to play on ball and off ball. LeBron would turn McHale into a damn spot up shooter which goes against what made him such an unstoppable force in the first place

Bird gets somewhat overrated in all-time talks but to think that LeBron is better :facepalm

[Duncan21formvp]

Bird plays to win, Lebron plays for stats.

[tontoz]

Bird was 23 years old as a rookie (Lebron had 4 All-star appearances by then) and was out of the league at 35.

Lebron came in straight out of HS and has only missed significant time once that i can remember, last year with the groin. Longevity and durability have to count for something when comparing careers.

Prime Bird was really fun to watch though.

[BallsOut]

Bron is a better basketball player. I don't know how you, out of all people are saying otherwise, considering nearly all of your analysis on players is purely from a statistical standpoint on here.

He just is. He does everything Bird does, but better, outside of rebounding.

He scores more, he is a better passer, better defender, better two way player, etc.


Bird's shooting >>>>>> Lebron's shooting
Bird's passing > LeBron's passing
Bird's turnovers <<< LeBron's turnovers
Bird's rebounding > LeBron's rebounding
Bird's clutch ability >>>>>> LeBron's

He does everything better? Fk outta here.

[Duncan21formvp]

Bird's shooting >>>>>> Lebron's shooting
Bird's passing > LeBron's passing
Bird's turnovers <<< LeBron's turnovers
Bird's rebounding > LeBron's rebounding
Bird's clutch ability >>>>>> LeBron's

He does everything better? Fk outta here.

Good post!

[Whoah10115]

You MJ stans are an extremely retarded and insecure bunch. Worse than both LeBron and Kobe stans combined.

You sure about that?

[Bronbron23]

Career per 100 possession stats

LeBron

36.9 points 9.3 asssists 9.3 rebounds 2.3 steals 1.1 blocks

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html


Bird

30.3 points 7.9 assists 12.5 rebounds 2.2 steals 1.0 blocks

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01.html



Not only does LeBron already put up much better stats than Bird but when you look at it in terms of per 100 possessions the difference is even greater. LeBron is statistically an entire tier above Bird.



lol

rekt :lol

Correct if im wrong but wouldn't most ball dominant players have better per 100 numbers? I get that it its comparing the same amount of possessions but a player who plays in a system with more movement would still have less stats per 100 than someone who is in a ball dominant system because alot of the possessions for the guy in the movement system are gonna be possessions where they're suppose to pass and cut to go screen or relocate. So alot of their possessions their not even looking to score or assists theyre basically making the hockey assist and then moving to wherever the play dictates.

The ball dominant guy on the other hand is getting more out of each possession stats wise because in most possessions hes looking to score or get an assist from someone cutting or spotting up.

Am i wrong?

[Bronbron23]

Career per 100 possession stats

LeBron

36.9 points 9.3 asssists 9.3 rebounds 2.3 steals 1.1 blocks

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html


Bird

30.3 points 7.9 assists 12.5 rebounds 2.2 steals 1.0 blocks

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01.html



Not only does LeBron already put up much better stats than Bird but when you look at it in terms of per 100 possessions the difference is even greater. LeBron is statistically an entire tier above Bird.



lol

rekt :lol

Yeah just as i thought, harden and westbrook have higher pts and assists per 100 than bird even though bird is clearly a better passer than both and a better scorer than westbrook.

Comparing per 100 possessions to guys in a systems that emphasis alot of on and off ball movement to guys that dominate the ball isnt very accurate at all. Comparing lebron to guys like harden, luka and westbrook is much more accurate than Comparing him to guys like steph who plays in a system that has alot of movement similar to bird

[light]

Career per 100 possession stats

LeBron

36.9 points 9.3 asssists 9.3 rebounds 2.3 steals 1.1 blocks

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html


Bird

30.3 points 7.9 assists 12.5 rebounds 2.2 steals 1.0 blocks

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01.html



Not only does LeBron already put up much better stats than Bird but when you look at it in terms of per 100 possessions the difference is even greater. LeBron is statistically an entire tier above Bird.



lol

rekt :lol

There isn't an argument.

This was settled many years ago.

[Rico2016]

Bird worked MJ in the playoffs

6-0

MJ was winless. At least Kareem won 11 games against Bird. MJ won zero

[Duncan21formvp]

Bruce Bowen Worked Lebron in the playoffs. Bruce Bowen is 4-0 vs Lebron and shut him down.

[Axe]

Bird worked MJ in the playoffs

6-0

MJ was winless. At least Kareem won 11 games against Bird. MJ won zero
What's the use of this narrative? To prove that bird was a better player than lbj?

Also, why do i get the feeling that you've become prominent all of a sudden when the bran stan dups got wiped out in this board more than a week ago?

[Rico2016]

Imagine LeBron being drafted by an all-time great GM like Red Auerbach or Jerry Krause instead of Jim Paxson.

https://s6.gifyu.com/images/separator-light1378072ed9159071.gif

Celtics Teammates - Bird's Rookie Year:

Hall of Famer Tiny Archibald (age 31)
Hall of Famer Dave Cowens (age 31)
Hall of Famer Pete Maravich (age 32)

(Celtics won 61 games in Bird's rookie season)

The very next year the Celtics added Hall of Famer Kevin McHale and Hall of Famer Robert Parrish.

Two years after that they add Hall of Famer Dennis Johnson.

[Rico2016]

What's the use of this narrative? To prove that bird was a better player than lbj?

Also, why do i get the feeling that you've become prominent all of a sudden when the bran stan dups got wiped out in this board more than a week ago?

Chill out RRR3, you know the reason why.

[Axe]

Chill out RRR3, you know the reason why.
Well, you're dumb if you think I'm a dup, laddie.

[86Celtics]

James beats Bird in longevity/athleticism. That's it. There's no comparison when it comes to toughness, fundamentals and skills. James crab dribbles while Bird has had a triple double with his left hand just because he felt like it.

[GimmeThat]

this is what Lebron should do, prior to the game starts, check the opponents roster and determine who'll be giving him his free throw points today

[FultzNationRISE]

We win again :rockon:

[Jordan96]

Damn, great thread.. LeBron wins again

[Gileraracer]

i can guarantee you that Bird with the following help would have more than 3 rings, doesnt matter if it's 1985 or 2015:

Shaq
Ray Allen
Dwyane Wade
Chris Bosh
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Love
Ben Wallace
Anthony Davis
Dwight Howard
Demarcus Cousins
Jerry Stackhouse
Mike Bibby
Rajon Rondo
Carlos Boozer
Antawn Jamison
Shawn Marion
Deron Williams
Derrick Rose
Adam Silver