Defenses haven't gotten worse; Offenses have gotten better

[GIF REACTION]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgwZYsXCcVY

Defensive tactics got better in the mid 90's, as teams found ways to take advantage of the Illegal defense rules... noticeable teams doing this; Seattle, New York... Teams towards the latter of the 90's were able to get away with zone principles, which in turn exposed the simplistic offensive strategies, hence why we got the isolation era of low scoring from the late 90's to early 2's. Slowly but surely teams got smarter and started to utilize the whole court, push the pace (pace has a strong correlation to defense and offense), find value in the 3 point shot, etc...

As the offenses have gotten better, this has made the defenses look worse, which is not entirely true. For all intents and purposes, the same quality of defense has been played for at least the last 15 years. If anything, the defenses have gotten slightly better, especially on a league wide perspective.

Stop hating the modern game. Appreciate it. Appreciate guys like Lebron, guys like Harden, guys like Curry. Don't think for one minute that they couldn't hang with the 80's and 90's cats... Because they can.

[Mr. Jabbar]

leKUNG doesnt care, he will steamroll to the basket in any era with any rules :bowdown: :bowdown:

[riseagainst]

leKUNG doesnt care, he will steamroll to the basket in any era with any rules :bowdown: :bowdown:

forever my Kong!
:bowdown:

[3ball]

In today's game, for a defender to remain in the 16 x 19 foot painted area, they must stay "within armslength" of their man (about 3 feet)..

"Armslength" is the strictest defense possible outside of having the defender stand shoulder-to-shoulder with his man or something ridiculous like that.. :oldlol:

Yet this stringent policy is what governs defenders in the most important area of the floor: the paint.

[Dbrog]

The game has been completely changed by the presence of the 3-ball in offensive schemes now. Nowadays, most teams make 10 threes/game. Go back even 10 years ago and that number goes to around 4 or 5 which is where it also was in the 90s. That's 5 more ppg just off threes so the fact that ppg is higher doesn't necessarily mean defense is worse now. Most coaches will tell you defensive schemes are much more advanced now but people are just harder to defend. Again, it's the classic motto of good offense beats good defense.

Also, 90s defense was not that great IMO. If you think about it, it was a much watered down league thanks to the expansion which means less great scoring players on each team, which means less ppg. There's a reason having 2 stars on your team back then could bring you great success. Hell some only needed one (here's looking at you Hakeem!).

[Marchesk]

The game has been completely changed by the presence of the 3-ball in offensive schemes now.

You're talking about ISH, right?

[GIF REACTION]

The game has been completely changed by the presence of the 3-ball in offensive schemes now. Nowadays, most teams make 10 threes/game. Go back even 10 years ago and that number goes to around 4 or 5 which is where it also was in the 90s. That's 5 more ppg just off threes so the fact that ppg is higher doesn't necessarily mean defense is worse now. Most coaches will tell you defensive schemes are much more advanced now but people are just harder to defend. Again, it's the classic motto of good offense beats good defense.

Also, 90s defense was not that great IMO. If you think about it, it was a much watered down league thanks to the expansion which means less great scoring players on each team, which means less ppg. There's a reason having 2 stars on your team back then could bring you great success. Hell some only needed one (here's looking at you Hakeem!).
IMO when they started making changes like no hand checking in the back court, and shortening the 3 point line by 2 feet, it allowed more teams to abuse the illegal defense rules, pretty much to the point where they were getting away with zones all the time

[Dbrog]

You're talking about ISH, right?

:oldlol: well played :cheers:

[3ball]

Paint defense is easier to exploit than before.. In today's game, for a defender to remain in the 16 x 19 foot painted area, they must stay "within armslength" of their man (about 3 feet)..

"Armslength" is the strictest defense possible outside of having the defender stand shoulder-to-shoulder with his man or something ridiculous like that.. :oldlol:

Yet this stringent policy is what governs defenders in the most important area of the floor: the paint.

[HurricaneKid]

The game has been completely changed by the presence of the 3-ball in offensive schemes now. Nowadays, most teams make 10 threes/game. Go back even 10 years ago and that number goes to around 4 or 5 which is where it also was in the 90s. That's 5 more ppg just off threes so the fact that ppg is higher doesn't necessarily mean defense is worse now. Most coaches will tell you defensive schemes are much more advanced now but people are just harder to defend. Again, it's the classic motto of good offense beats good defense.

Go back even farther. Larry Bird Never made 100 3s in a season. The most he ever made was 98. LeBron has eclipsed that in 9 of the last 11 seasons. The strike shortened year and the season he and DWade eschewed 3s almost altogether were the only two years he didn't. Larry Bird's 86 season (which included a pace ~20% higher than today's pace) would have placed #90 in the league last year, just behind Charlie Villanueva.

He led the NBA in 1986, as he led the Celtics to an All-Time echelon season. The entire Celts team made 138 3s that year. League avg last year was 643 3s made. And the 5 teams that made the most 3s last season were the 5 last teams standing. All of which had 818+ 3s made. The 3 ball has stretched the floor and completely altered the game.

[GIF REACTION]

Paint defense is easier to exploit because players can shoot 3 pointers now

Put your average 90's offense against your average modern defense and the defense does very well

Put your modern offense against a 90's defense and it is pretty even

The outlier is the poor offensive strategy of the 90's

[Dbrog]

Paint defense is easier to exploit than before.. In today's game, for a defender to remain in the 16 x 19 foot painted area, they must stay "within armslength" of their man (about 3 feet)..

"Armslength" is the strictest defense possible outside of having the defender stand shoulder-to-shoulder with his man or something ridiculous like that.. :oldlol:

Yet this stringent policy is what governs defenders in the most important area of the floor: the paint.

What exactly are you talking about? Defenders can go anywhere on the court now (as opposed to before). You are referring to the defensive 3 second rule which really doesn't affect as much as you think...just makes bigs have to be slightly more mobile instead of camping. It's not a big deal to just take one step out of the paint and then go back.

Edit: Nice post hurricanekid

[GIF REACTION]

What exactly are you talking about? Defenders can go anywhere on the court now (as opposed to before). You are referring to the defensive 3 second rule which really doesn't affect as much as you think...just makes bigs have to be slightly more mobile instead of camping. It's not a big deal to just take one step out of the paint and then go back.
He doesn't want to acknowledge that offensive game plan was so shit that it made the defense look so good in the 90's

Offenses are just plain better today. This obviously hurts defenses but in no way is a detriment to their quality when stacked against every era

[3ball]

ridic bias itt

[3ball]

:facepalm

[Dbrog]

lol nice edit 3-ball. I was gonna pick apart what you posted but oh well.

[3ball]

Also, 90s defense was not that great IMO. If you think about it, it was a much watered down league thanks to the expansion which means less great scoring players on each team, which means less ppg.


This is BS - 30 teams and 450 players in 1996 is the same as 30 teams and 450 players today.. All the players in expansion were existing NBA players.. So don't try to invent something out of nothing.

And if you're going to take credit away from championships won in expansion years like 1995, then you have to give extra CREDIT to championships won when there were less than 30 teams, like MJ's first 3-peat when there were only 25-teams, which is less diluted than today's 30 team league where the talent is more spread out.

[GIF REACTION]

This is BS - 30 teams and 450 players in 1996 is the same as 30 teams and 450 players today.. All the players in expansion were existing NBA players.. So don't try to invent something out of nothing.

And if you're going to take credit away from championships won in expansion years like 1995, then you have to give extra CREDIT to championships won when there were less than 30 teams, like MJ's first 3-peat when there were only 25-teams, which is less diluted than today's 30 team league where the talent is more spread out.
Population has increase a 2-3 billion since the 90's

The talent pool is infinitely larger today, and more global

[Dbrog]

This is BS - 30 teams and 450 players in 1996 is the same as 30 teams and 450 players today.. All the players in expansion were existing NBA players.. So don't try to invent something out of nothing.

And if you're going to take credit away from championships won in expansion years like 1995, then you have to give extra CREDIT to championships won when there were less than 30 teams, like MJ's first 3-peat when there were only 25-teams, which is less diluted than today's 30 team league where the talent is more spread out.

GIF Reaction answered this perfectly.

Also just FYI, I definitely consider MJs first 3 chips as much higher value than his last three. My logic stays consistent...

[3ball]

Population has increase a 2-3 billion since the 90's

The talent pool is infinitely larger today, and more global
there are more things to do nowadays... a lower proportion of kids play basketball and play basketball seriously

take this L

And again, if you're going to take credit away from championships won in expansion years like 1995, then you have to give extra CREDIT to championships won when there were less than 30 teams, like MJ's first 3-peat when there were only 25-teams, which is less diluted than today's 30 team league where the talent is more spread out.

[Dbrog]

there are more things to do nowadays... a lower proportion of kids play basketball and play basketball seriously

take this L

And again, if you're going to take credit away from championships won in expansion years like 1995, then you have to give extra CREDIT to championships won when there were less than 30 teams, like MJ's first 3-peat when there were only 25-teams, which is less diluted than today's 30 team league where the talent is more spread out.

Btw, it's not like we are saying that those championships shouldn't be given credit. Idk where you really got that from. We were arguing about defensive and offensive schemes. How many teams and dispersion of talent in the league just is what it is. It's not good or bad, just important to note how it could affect the game.

[GIF REACTION]

there are more things to do nowadays... a lower proportion of kids play basketball and play basketball seriously

take this L

And again, if you're going to take credit away from championships won in expansion years like 1995, then you have to give extra CREDIT to championships won when there were less than 30 teams, like MJ's first 3-peat when there were only 25-teams, which is less diluted than today's 30 team league where the talent is more spread out.
Population has increase a 2-3 billion since the 90's

The talent pool is infinitely larger today, and more global

[ISHGoat]

there are more things to do nowadays... a lower proportion of kids play basketball and play basketball seriously

take this L

And again, if you're going to take credit away from championships won in expansion years like 1995, then you have to give extra CREDIT to championships won when there were less than 30 teams, like MJ's first 3-peat when there were only 25-teams, which is less diluted than today's 30 team league where the talent is more spread out.

lmao thats your opinion, which is retarded, and so are you.

[sdot_thadon]

there are more things to do nowadays... a lower proportion of kids play basketball and play basketball seriously

take this L

And again, if you're going to take credit away from championships won in expansion years like 1995, then you have to give extra CREDIT to championships won when there were less than 30 teams, like MJ's first 3-peat when there were only 25-teams, which is less diluted than today's 30 team league where the talent is more spread out.
:wtf:
Dammit 3b , I can't proper y type my response. Why in the wor d you keep taking a these L's?

[3ball]

lmao thats your opinion, which is retarded, and so are you.


Actually, it's statistical fact - a lower proportion of kids play ball today because there are more things to do.

It's also statistical fact that Lebron gets his stats by reducing his teammates stats - this is a blatant statistical fact - just look at Lebron's teammates with and without him - a massive gap... But no such gap with MJ and his teammates..

MJ didn't need to reduce his teammates stats to get his, which is why his teams always reached their ceiling and never underperformed - so it's no surprise that every time he had a team good enough to MAKE the Finals, he WON it.
.

[Dbrog]

Actually, it's statistical fact - a lower proportion of kids play ball today because there are more things to do.

.

Why are you making this into Bron vs MJ? You got problems dude...

btw we don't care about proportion. We care about raw numbers. It doesn't matter if the % goes down if there are still MORE people total playing ball :facepalm

Please post a stat that says there are fewer total people playing basketball today and I'll "take the L"

[3ball]

What exactly are you talking about? Defenders can go anywhere on the court now (as opposed to before).



Not in the paint.

For a defender to remain in the 16 x 19 foot painted area, they must stay "within armslength" of their man (about 3 feet).

"Armslength" is the strictest defense possible outside of having the defender stand shoulder-to-shoulder with his man or something ridiculous like that.. Yet this stringent policy is what governs defenders in the most important area of the floor: the paint.
.

[Sarcastic]

Offesnses haven't gotten better, they've just changed their emphasis, and that's due to the skill set coaches have at their disposal. There is a lack of post skills in the vast majority of players, so the coaches use more pick n roll, and drive and kick.

[3ball]

It doesn't matter if the % goes down if there are still MORE people total playing ball :facepalm


There are exactly the same number of people playing ball - the same number of guys make the varsity teams in HS and get D1 scholarships - so the level of competition and number of players is EXACTLY THE SAME starting from junior high/high school level onwards.

Btw, it's also statistical fact that Lebron gets his stats by reducing his teammates stats - this is a blatant statistical fact - just look at Lebron's teammates with and without him - a massive gap... But no such gap with MJ and his teammates..

MJ didn't need to reduce his teammates stats to get his, which is why his teams always reached their ceiling and never underperformed - so it's no surprise that every time he had a team good enough to MAKE the Finals, he WON it.
.

[Dbrog]

There are exactly the same number of people playing ball - the same number of guys make the varsity teams in HS and get D1 scholarships - so the level of competition and number of players is EXACTLY THE SAME starting from high school varsity onwards.

Christ dude how old are you? NEW SCHOOLS OPEN EVERY YEAR (including college teams)! :oldlol:
Not to mention as the population grows and more people are balling, varsity teams and college teams are suddenly much better than they were 20 years ago. Talent increases as population grows.



Not in the paint.

For a defender to remain in the 16 x 19 foot painted area, they must stay "within armslength" of their man (about 3 feet).

"Armslength" is the strictest defense possible outside of having the defender stand shoulder-to-shoulder with his man or something ridiculous like that.. Yet this stringent policy is what governs defenders in the most important area of the floor: the paint.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_three-second_violation

Reading comprehension is your friend. You only have to read the first two sentences...I believe in you

[3ball]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_three-second_violation

Reading comprehension is your friend. You only have to read the first two sentences...I believe in you


From your link:


To be considered actively guarding (so defender can remain in the paint), a defender must be within arm's length of an opponent and in a guarding position


So again, for a defender to remain in the 16 x 19 foot painted area, they must stay "within armslength" of their man (about 3 feet).

"Armslength" is the strictest defense possible outside of having the defender stand shoulder-to-shoulder with his man or something ridiculous like that.. Yet this stringent policy is what governs defenders in the most important area of the floor: the paint.

[Dbrog]

From your link:


To be considered actively guarding (so defender can remain in the paint), a defender must be within arm's length of an opponent and in a guarding position


So again, for a defender to remain in the 16 x 19 foot painted area, they must stay "within armslength" of their man (about 3 feet).

"Armslength" is the strictest defense possible outside of having the defender stand shoulder-to-shoulder with his man or something ridiculous like that.. Yet this stringent policy is what governs defenders in the most important area of the floor: the paint.

So you admit you have a 3rd grade reading level. THIS LITERALLY MEANS A PLAYER IS FREE TO MOVE ANYWHERE, INCLUDING IN THE PAINT! THEY CAN JUST ONLY STAY THERE FOR UP TO THREE SECONDS IF THEY DO THIS BEFORE THEY HAVE TO RESET IT

The shit you keep repeating is the definition of "actively guarding." Def 3 violation is "when a member of the defending team spends more than three seconds in the free throw lane (also known as the 16-foot lane, or colloquially as "in the paint") while not actively guarding an opponent."

[3ball]

THIS LITERALLY MEANS A PLAYER IS FREE TO MOVE ANYWHERE, INCLUDING IN THE PAINT! THEY CAN JUST ONLY STAY THERE FOR UP TO THREE SECONDS IF THEY DO THIS BEFORE THEY HAVE TO RESET IT



Again, for a defender to remain in the 16 x 19 foot painted area, they must stay "within armslength" of their man (about 3 feet) - defenders must hug their man to REMAIN in the paint (as your bolded states above).

Otoh, defenders in previous eras were allowed to stay in the paint when their man was far out of armslength - Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of the Illegal Defense Guidelines allowed defenders to stand in the paint "with no time restriction" if their man was anywhere in the paint, or within 3 feet of either side.. This condition was always occurring because of the lack of spacing.


2b. When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area with no time limitations. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area.


To summarize - defenders in today's game aren't allowed to remain in the paint when there's no one else around, while previous era defenders could.

[Dbrog]

Ok 3-ball I want you to try to pay verrrrrry close attention to what I am saying because you have it 100% backwards.

Defenders in today's game ARE allowed to remain in the paint with no offensive player nearby for up to 3 seconds before stepping outside of it.

With illegal defense, defenders were NEVER allowed to be in the paint for ANY AMOUNT OF TIME if there was no offensive player nearby. It would be called a violation.

Lastly, the "no time limitations" clause applies to BOTH rulesets because it only applies if there IS an offensive player in the paint. Defender can stay there ALL DAY if they want to in both scenarios. The offensive player will eventually be called for an offensive 3 second violation though.

Now please, I'm almost positive a 5 year old can understand what I just wrote.

[DonDadda59]

:oldlol:

So your whole 'defense is better now' schtick got so thoroughly ripped to shreds that you switch to this new bullshit?

Keep being you, you punk ass snitch.

[3ball]

With illegal defense, defenders were NEVER allowed to be in the paint for ANY AMOUNT OF TIME if there was no offensive player nearby. It would be called a violation.


Rule 2b of the Illegal Defense Guidelines:


2b. When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area with no time limitations. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area.






Defenders in today's game ARE allowed to remain in the paint with no offensive player nearby for up to 3 seconds .



But not longer than 3 seconds, which means defenders cannot REMAIN in the paint unless they are hugging their man.






Defenders in today's game ARE allowed to remain in the paint with no offensive player nearby for up to 3 seconds before stepping outside of it.



A defender can only step outside the paint if they're already on the edge of the paint because the paint is a massive 16 x 19 feet.. If a player is under the rim, they are 8 feet away from the side of the paint, so it takes too long to step out - since it takes too long to step out from under the rim, defenders don't stand under the rim unless there is an offensive player they can hug (stay within armslength of).


http://i.imgur.com/rW270Q6.gif


Notice Speights on baseline, left of the rim - ideally, he'd be waiting under the rim the whole time to contest Lebron.. But today's defensive 3 seconds rule doesn't allow defenders to wait in the 16 x 19 foot painted area if no one is within armslength (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html) (about 3 feet).. So Speights has walk to AWAY from the rim to remain within armslength of his man, which prevents him from contesting Lebron.

Otoh, in previous eras, Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of the Illegal Defense Guidelines allowed defenders to remain in the paint "with no time restriction" if their man was anywhere inside the paint, or within 3 feet or either side.. So in the clip above, Speights would've been waiting under the rim to contest Lebron and force him into a tougher shot.
.

[Dbrog]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

I'm done. It's like you are just picking random words to highlight. Fml man...learn how to read.

[chips93]

A defender can only step outside the paint if they're already on the edge of the paint because the paint is a massive 16 x 19 feet.. If a player is under the rim, they are 8 feet away from the side of the paint, so it takes too long to step out - since it takes too long to step out from under the rim, defenders don't stand under the rim unless there is an offensive player they can hug (stay within armslength of).


http://i.imgur.com/rW270Q6.gif


Notice Speights on baseline, left of the rim - ideally, he'd be waiting under the rim the whole time to contest Lebron.. But today's defensive 3 seconds rule doesn't allow defenders to wait in the 16 x 19 foot painted area if no one is within armslength (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html) (about 3 feet).. So Speights has walk to AWAY from the rim to remain within armslength of his man, which prevents him from contesting Lebron.

Otoh, in previous eras, Rule 2b (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html) of the Illegal Defense Guidelines allowed defenders to remain in the paint "with no time restriction" if their man was anywhere inside the paint, or within 3 feet or either side.. So in the clip above, Speights would've been waiting under the rim to contest Lebron and force him into a tougher shot.
.

plenty of teams get around this by overloading the strongside, as boozer is here, and leaving their man altogether, and standing outside of the paint, on the side of the offensive player.

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2537505/Screen_Shot_2013-04-26_at_9.57.30_AM.png

[Straight_Ballin]

Lol ISH kids thinking that it's harder to score in a league that doesn't have hand checking a opposed to having to play against hand checking.

You can clearly see in this thread who has never played street ball. If you did, then you would know it's harder to score against it than in an officiated game where you get called for it.

I won't even begin to touch on the other aspects on how the game has evolved in order to make it easier to score due to defenses getting worse.

[DonDadda59]

Lol ISH kids thinking that it's harder to score in a league that doesn't have hand checking a opposed to having to play against hand checking.

You can clearly see in this thread who has never played street ball. If you did, then you would know it's harder to score against it than in an officiated game where you get called for it.

I won't even begin to touch on the other aspects on how the game has evolved in order to make it easier to score due to defenses getting worse.

No no no, that argument was doused in gasoline and lit on fire. The new party line is that offenses have gotten better, which is why since the rule changes of the 00s, scoring and shooting percentages have gone up considerably.

[GIF REACTION]

Notice the difference

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjw4ILPW3tA

[GIF REACTION]

When the league scrapped the old illegal-defense rules, it freed coaches to get funky. Players can hover in open spaces; pretend they are going to help; swipe at the ball, and then recover back out to shooters; and emerge unannounced from almost anywhere.

Zach Lowe

[sdot_thadon]

No no no, that argument was doused in gasoline and lit on fire. The new party line is that offenses have gotten better, which is why since the rule changes of the 00s, scoring and shooting percentages have gone up considerably.
Maybe people just got better at the game. Offense and defense are more high level today, only a fool couldn't see this. Alltime greats play the game at a higher level than the average of their leagues. Any great would be exactly that in any era.

[GIF REACTION]

It is a myth, and a disturbingly widespread one, to say Howard has never had a post-up game. It is doubly frustrating that the loudest such critics on your Tee-Vee tend to be post-up guys who played during a time when the illegal defense rules were such that they could happily back it down one-on-one without fear of swiping help defenders and opponents shading their entire defenses toward the ball. "It's great that those players like Charles Barkley could do that," says Stan Van Gundy, Howard's longtime coach in Orlando. "But all you gotta do is watch, and you see the game is going in a different direction because of the rules. A lot of the criticism is B.S."

Zach Lowe

[DonDadda59]

Maybe people just got better at the game.

:coleman:

Or maybe things just went the way the league intended- the game became more open, especially for perimeter guys and scoring and shooting %s went up across the board.

Answer this question honestly- do you really think the NBA changed the rules to make it more difficult to score? If so... why the f*ck would they do that? :confusedshrug:


Zach Lowe

:yaohappy:

League Wide
2001- 94.8 PPG/ .473 eFG
2014- 101 PPG/ .501 eFG (tied w/ 2010 for highest ever)

Damn... those offenses really did improve despite the better defense.

:lol

[GIF REACTION]

WINNER: The Situational Superstar

We have one conception of a superstar max player — the guy who gets the ball, stops the offense, and gets you buckets. Michael Jordan, basically. Draymond Green is not that sort of player, and an astonishing number of fans seem to find him laughably unworthy of a max-level deal as a free agent this summer.

In the new NBA — the NBA of motion offenses and speeding defenses — Green is a max guy. There are still players who can produce baskets from nothing, and they are massively valuable. But rule changes have made one-on-one creation harder than it used to be, from the post and the perimeter.

Zach Lowe

[juju151111]

Zach Lowe
This guy thinks Mj stopped the offense. Mj teams routinely averged 20+ asts.

[DonDadda59]

http://www.sloansportsconference.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/lowe1.jpg

:roll:

Lack of skills (\https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR7oP6NmfHQ) by certain guys is why they find it hard to shoot 30% in 1 on 1, isolation situations.

League Wide
2001- 94.8 PPG/ .473 eFG
2014- 101 PPG/ .501 eFG (tied w/ 2010 for highest ever)

Tweet that to Zach Lowe.

http://www.troll.me/images/patronizing-wiggum/wheres-your-messiah-now.jpg

[GIF REACTION]

That might be especially so because, despite what every ex-player over 40 will tell you, it’s just as hard to score points today as it was in the “glory days” — and it may be getting harder. Retired players talk about how Michael Jordan could score 40 points a game under the “soft” new rules, which ban hand-checking, punish needlessly hard fouls more harshly, and otherwise prohibit some of the more physical defensive techniques guys could use on the perimeter more than a decade ago.

But no one scores 40 a game today. As Henry Abbott has pointed out at ESPN.com, the number of guys who manage even 20 a game has dropped in the last half-decade or so. Over the last five seasons, teams have averaged about 107 points per 100 possessions, according to Basketball-Reference.com, and the number has generally been dropping. The league average in the mid- to late 1980s hovered around the same 107/108 range. And in the mid-1990s, when the Knicks and their imitators were allegedly ruining basketball, the league overall still eked out an average of about 108 points per 100 possessions.

Zach Lowe and Henry Abbott

[GIF REACTION]

:roll:

Lack of skills (\https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR7oP6NmfHQ) by certain guys is why they find it hard to shoot 30% in 1 on 1, isolation situations.

League Wide
2001- 94.8 PPG/ .473 eFG
2014- 101 PPG/ .501 eFG (tied w/ 2010 for highest ever)

Tweet that to Zach Lowe.

http://www.troll.me/images/patronizing-wiggum/wheres-your-messiah-now.jpg
Post 3 pointers taken

Wrecked

[chips93]

League Wide
2001- 94.8 PPG/ .473 eFG
2014- 101 PPG/ .501 eFG (tied w/ 2010 for highest ever)



points per game is a bad indicator of offfensive efficiency

points per 100 possessions is clearly better

2001/02: 104.5 points per 100 possessions
2014/15: 105.6 points per 100 possessions

[GIF REACTION]

Shot selection

OK, so teams are playing at the same speed, and the high-minute players are playing about as many minutes as ever.

Maybe they're just shooting less? Maybe stat geekery has inspired some kind of revolution in thinking, and suddenly all those inefficient gunners are thinking twice about jacking up bad shots?

Despite the lack of total points, top players do have slightly better field goal percentage (46.7 compared to 45.7 percent) this year compared to five years ago.

Again using the the players who lead the league in minutes this season as a sample group of the kinds of players who are candidates to average 20 or more points per game, we find ... this theory strikes out too. The truth is, they're shooting more often.

This year those top players are taking a shot every 2:19 of play, compared to every 2:24 five years ago. (In 1985-1986 they shot every 2:10, which is a lot of shooting.)

I had been abusing the numbers of Basketball-Reference for some time, but they simply would not give up the answers I was looking for.

Time for another perspective.

As soon as I explained the issue to Thorpe, he declared "I know exactly what's going on."

The defense.

Thorpe explains it best in the video, but the gist is this: In recent years more and more NBA coaches have signed up for the defensive philosophy, popularized by Tom Thibodeau since 2007-08, of "flooding ball-side box."

This is not the same as double-teaming, but it has some similarities. When the ball is on one side of the court, watch for this: Very often an extra defender sneaks over to join the action, bringing a crowd of defenders closer to the ball. It's something that became legal when the NBA began allowing zone defenses in 2001, but it took until 2008 for coaches to really figure out how to take best advantage.

That's when the big-time gunners started to disappear.

Flooding the side of the court with the ball makes everything tougher for that star scorer, starting when he makes the catch and assesses options. Driving lanes are tighter or closed off entirely. More defenders have more ability to get hands in faces. It's difficult to reach favored spots on the court, and to operate once there. These are the times that try virtuoso's souls.

And when there's an extra defender on one side of the court, the good play is pretty obvious: pass to the other side, where your team has the numbers advantage.

If Thorpe is right, that this team defensive technique is to blame for our new shortage of big scorers, there are various ways you might expect the data to have his back. For instance, secondary scorers -- those guys catching the ball on the sparsely defended weak side -- ought to be scoring more, while top players could expect to see an uptick in assists.

That's all happening. Stars putting up big numbers are incredibly hard to find this season compared to five years ago, but overall team scoring is down only about two points per game -- the non-star scorers must be picking up a little slack.

And as for assists, in 1985-86, the 10 players who played the longest minutes in the season's first 36 games combined for 1,308 assists. Five years ago, that number was 1,482. This year it's all the way up to 1,768.

Not getting to the line

There's one other part of this story. A big part. And it's this: Free throws are more rare than ever. There are 22.3 per game on average this season, which is the lowest level in NBA history. And it's not a one-year aberration. The second lowest year ever was last year. Every season since 2008-09 is in the top 10 all-time for fewest free throws.

Now we're getting somewhere.

Top players are simply not getting to the line.

Those high-minute players combined to shoot more than 2,400 free throws in the first 36 games of both 1985-86 and 2007-08. This season, they stepped to the line just 1,757 times.

In a way, this is one mystery solved. Pace mildly slower. Minutes slightly lower. Scoring generally down a bit. Free throws are down hugely compared to all of history and 10 percent over the last five years. New defenses can explain some or all of that, and it's more clear than ever why so few players are averaging 20 points per game.

But this mystery comes with a sequel: Why so few free throws?

One theory is that the NBA has reduced some of the referee trickery available to big scorers, for instance, by discouraging the "rip-through" move which led to cheap free throws for top scorers. Refereeing oversight has evolved, too, with the league looking over referees' shoulders more than ever in the name of a consistently called game. Perhaps "star calls" are on the wane generally.

Another possible explanation, however, is that Thorpe's defensive theory explains this too: with extra defenders around, perhaps players simply aren't attacking the rim, where big numbers of fouls are drawn, as often as they used to.

If so, that could be a major factor -- the major factor, even -- in explaining why top players aren't scoring like they used to.

ESPN's Henry Abbott

[chips93]

ESPN's Henry Abbott

:cheers:

after pop, thibs is the most influential coach of the last ten years

the man reinvented nba defenses, forcing offenses to adapt to his improved defensive schemes, and encouraging ball movement.

[DonDadda59]

http://www.sloansportsconference.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/lowe1.jpghttp://www.niemanlab.org/images/henryabbott.jpg

Bulls 2nd 3-peat League Wide ('96-'98)

97.3 PPG/ .490 eFG (3 pt line moved closer)/ 90.7 Pace

2013-2015 League Wide

99.7 PPG/ .498 eFG/ 93.3 Pace

Go ahead and show me another decade to decade period in NBA History post merger where the scoring, shooting percentages, and pace went UP.

I'll wait.


Post 3 pointers taken

Wrecked

'94: 101.5 PPG/ 9.9 3s per game
'98: 96.9 PPG/ 16.8 3s per game

Keep reaching.

[chips93]

its also worth noting, as abbott says, the best way to beat this strongside flooding defense is just to swing the ball to the weakside.

so to counteract this, thibs teams would ICE the pick and roll, meaning forcing any side pick and rolls towards the baseline, and slowing the offense from swinging the ball to the weakside.

https://hoopchalkdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/ice-setup.jpg

the man real was a genius, but its a copy cat league, and soon any team worth their salt copied his teams philosophies.

[GIF REACTION]

Nice dodge there Don

But the conclusion has already been reached

It's harder for superstars to score today

Simple as that

[GIF REACTION]

its also worth noting, as abbott says, the best way to beat this strongside flooding defense is just to swing the ball to the weakside.

so to counteract this, thibs teams would ICE the pick and roll, meaning forcing any side pick and rolls towards the baseline, and slowing the offense from swinging the ball to the weakside.

https://hoopchalkdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/ice-setup.jpg

the man real was a genius, but its a copy cat league, and soon any team worth their salt copied his teams philosophies.
:applause:

[sdot_thadon]

:coleman:

Or maybe things just went the way the league intended- the game became more open, especially for perimeter guys and scoring and shooting %s went up across the board.

Answer this question honestly- do you really think the NBA changed the rules to make it more difficult to score? If so... why the f*ck would they do that? :confusedshrug:



:yaohappy:

League Wide
2001- 94.8 PPG/ .473 eFG
2014- 101 PPG/ .501 eFG (tied w/ 2010 for highest ever)

Damn... those offenses really did improve despite the better defense.

:lol
No they didn't, but you can't see the forest for the trees bro. The players improved within the bounds of whatever rules they played with. Every generation does, with the caveat of having the entirety of league history to build upon. Mj built his game upon guys like thompson and Erving etc. Who built their games upon guys like Baylor and Robertson etc. I'll bet you never bought the old schools saying MJ wouldn't be as good in the 60's because he wouldn't be allowed to carry/palm the ball and travel did you? So quit with the hypocritical cutesy shit.

[DonDadda59]

No they didn't, but you can't see the forest for the trees bro.

Hilarious that you would say that about ME.

The NBA explicitly goes out of its way to make scoring easier. Scoring and percentages increase considerably... But it became harder to score.

OK.


The players improved within the bounds of whatever rules they played with. Every generation does, with the caveat of having the entirety of league history to build upon. Mj built his game upon guys like thompson and Erving etc. Who built their games upon guys like Baylor and Robertson etc. I'll bet you never bought the old schools saying MJ wouldn't be as good in the 60's because he wouldn't be allowed to carry/palm the ball and travel did you? So quit with the hypocritical cutesy shit.

How specifically did players improve? Give specific details.

All I can think of is 7 footers chucking 3s. If you want to call that an improvement over Shaq... more power to you.

[juju151111]

Zach Lowe
What BS excuse because Howard(Who doesn't even get doubled that much) post moves suck. Oh that article is clearly full of shit Perimeter players routinely helped on bigs back then and greqt bigs got doubled and tripled.
In facxt lets me stop talking and show you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEGvKVNoJ8E (Everytime Hakeem touched the ball two people rotated to him including a perimeter player. Thus is just one game highlights too

[Mr. Jabbar]

Defenses haven't gotten worse; LeKENG happened.

[sdot_thadon]

Hilarious that you would say that about ME.

The NBA explicitly goes out of its way to make scoring easier. Scoring and percentages increase considerably... But it became harder to score.

OK.



How specifically did players improve? Give specific details.

All I can think of is 7 footers chucking 3s. If you want to call that an improvement over Shaq... more power to you.
So basically guys of all sizes being ball handlers, creators, and shooters as well as the entire league having to be able to defend at a professional level despite being unable to touch anyone doesn't count as overall improvement? Wake up bro.

As if all the quotes from gif reaction aren't overwhelming you enough. Starting to look bad, just save face and move on. :hammerhead:

[DonDadda59]

So basically guys of all sizes being ball handlers, creators, and shooters as well as the entire league having to be able to defend at a professional level despite being unable to touch anyone doesn't count as overall improvement? Wake up bro.

My mind is wide awake bro.


As if all the quotes from gif reaction aren't overwhelming you enough. Starting to look bad, just save face and move on. :hammerhead:


:lol

ImStillSnitchin is posting quotes from nerds who clearly don't know shit about basketball and I've countered all of his bullshit with reality based fact. Scoring, Shooting %s, and pace have increased since the rule changes that were explicitly designed to accomplish all of those things.

Since he never got back to me on the issue, maybe you'd like to tackle it...

Go ahead and show me any decade to decade period (shit you could even do half decades), where the scoring, shooting %s, and pace of the league INCREASED league wide since the merger outside of the post rule changes era.

I'll paypal you some Dadda fun bucks if you can. They're redeemable at any store that serves fresh crow.

[chips93]

What BS excuse because Howard(Who doesn't even get doubled that much) post moves suck. Oh that article is clearly full of shit Perimeter players routinely helped on bigs back then and greqt bigs got doubled and tripled.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEGvKVNoJ8E (Everytime Hakeem touched the ball two people rotated to him including a perimeter player. Thus is just one game highlights too

thats not what the article is about

its not saying that perimeter players didnt double team back then, its saying that they had fewer ways of double teaming back then, which is true.

in the video, every double team comes straight at him, so one man is always open.

however today you can send one player to swipe at the ball, without all the way committing to a double team, which would be a zone defense violation. (you can argue about how strictly this rule was called, but it still got called often enough back then).

And you can send a double team, and zone up with the remaining 3 defensive players, playing a zone defense on the remaining 4 offensive players.



nobody is saying that howard is as good as hakeem, or that lebron is as good as jordan, or that lebron or howard would be as good as hakeem/jordan if they got to play in the 90s.

but the fact is that modern nba defenses make it harder to score in isolation, thanks to the zone defense rules. the hand checking ban helps today's offensive players, but not enough to offset the zone defense rules.

[chips93]

ImStillSnitchin is posting quotes from nerds who clearly don't know shit about basketball and I've countered all of his bullshit with reality based fact. Scoring, Shooting %s, and pace have increased since the rule changes that were explicitly designed to accomplish all of those things.

if they dont know shit about basketball why are you unable to respond to their arguments, instead resorting to childish ad hominem attacks.

:confusedshrug:

[DonDadda59]

if they dont know shit about basketball why are you unable to respond to their arguments, instead resorting to childish ad hominem attacks.

:confusedshrug:

Look over the thread, I'm the only one making any actual fact based arguments. Everyone else is dealing in bullshit hypotheticals that have no basis in reality.

But if you boys want to play the copy-paste game, I can shut this whole thread down like I've done so many others.

Just say the word.

[GIF REACTION]

thats not what the article is about

its not saying that perimeter players didnt double team back then, its saying that they had fewer ways of double teaming back then, which is true.

in the video, every double team comes straight at him, so one man is always open.

however today you can send one player to swipe at the ball, without all the way committing to a double team, which would be a zone defense violation. (you can argue about how strictly this rule was called, but it still got called often enough back then).

And you can send a double team, and zone up with the remaining 3 defensive players, playing a zone defense on the remaining 4 offensive players.



nobody is saying that howard is as good as hakeem, or that lebron is as good as jordan, or that lebron or howard would be as good as hakeem/jordan if they got to play in the 90s.

but the fact is that modern nba defenses make it harder to score in isolation, thanks to the zone defense rules. the hand checking ban helps today's offensive players, but not enough to offset the zone defense rules.
Exactly

It's easier to beat your 1 on 1 man today (But it's not a major difference) BUT now you have 2nd and 3rd walls of defenders behind the man defender, and that's alot harder. During most of the 90s, if you beat the man defender, you usually had a clear lane to the basket

[GIF REACTION]

Shows you how delusional don is

Guys like Abbott and Lowe are legit, and some of the most well known NBA writers on the planet.

[chips93]

Look over the thread, I'm the only one making any actual fact based arguments. Everyone else is dealing in bullshit hypotheticals that have no basis in reality.

But if you boys want to play the copy-paste game, I can shut this whole thread down like I've done so many others.

Just say the word.

by this I presume you mean copy and pasting coaches complaining over illegal zone defenses?

since when did losing coaches complaining about officiating mean anything?


regardless if some refs enforced rules stronger than others, the fact is those rules arent enforced at all today since they dont exist.

so even if refs only called them sporadically back then, teams still didnt have total free reign to play zone like they do today, when it never gets called.



if you have an argument beyond "refs never called zone defense", I would genuinely be interested in reading it. the evolution of nba defense/offense is fascinating to me.

[3ball]

so to counteract this, thibs teams would ICE/SHADE the pick and roll to force PNR to other side




You guys are so ignorant about the game - you think shading on PNR's just happens today?.... It's ALWAYS happened - teams have ALWAYS forced PNR's one direction or another:

.
Previous Era Shading PART I... PART II is next post:


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[3ball]

.
More Previous Era Shading:


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[DonDadda59]

Shows you how delusional don is

Guys like Abbott and Lowe are legit, and some of the most well known NBA writers on the planet.

:rolleyes:

You did this to yourself. I want you to remember that.

You boys do know WHY the NBA got rid of the illegal D rules, right? It was because they proved useless in curbing teams from playing zone and refs found it impossible to enforce them effectively. A trip down memory lane:

[INDENT]LA QUINTA, Calif. -- Responding to the proliferation of all-out zone defenses being implemented as the 1988-89 season unfolded, the Competition Committee of the National Basketball Association has, for the umpteenth time, attempted to address the matter at the league meetings.

"We received a great many complaints, especially over the last third of the season," said league vice president of operations Rod Thorn.

-'NBA TARGETS ZONE DEFENSE', Boston Globe
9/18/89

Last season, Jordan had to overcome the harassment of zone traps and double and triple-teaming to win the scoring title by averaging 37.1 points a game. This time, he faces new challenges not only from opposing coaches and their defenses but also from the plans of his own coach.

-NY Times, 11/4/87

'Anyway, the assumption that zone defenses are not played in the NBA is false. The rules allow for full-court zone pressure, and because defenses are permitted to aggressively double-team the ball anywhere on the floor, teams play de facto zones in the frontcourt, top. To one degree or another, every NBA team uses some type of zone. Throw in the added pressure of "staying legal"

[DonDadda59]

CONT'D


Watch the Utah Jazz walk the fine line between a legal and an illegal defense. See Mark Eaton dance - as well as a 7-foot-4, 300-pound man can dance - across the lane for 2.9 seconds, just avoiding the zone defense call.

There's John Stockton, not really guarding his man, but getting close to him just in time to escape the whistle. There are double-teams off the ball, which aren't supposed to be legal, but they are just for a fraction of a second, just time enough to throw an offense off stride.

The Jazz is all about Karl Malone running the floor as well as any big man alive, and Stockton finding the open man as well as any guard alive, and Jeff Malone shooting the jumper as pure as anyone in the game. But they're mainly about zone defense, which is supposed to be illegal in the NBA.

"We come as close as possible" to playing zone, Eaton acknowledges. "You have to have the ability to help and you have to be able to shut down the middle. And to be able to do that, you have to push it to the edge."

Coach Jerry Sloan, who spent a career knocking opposing guards upside the head in Chicago, says this isn't his ideal, only an appreciation of his personnel.
"I like to run as much as anyone else," he said. "When I was in college we used to score 100 points seven or eight times a year. But with Mark Eaton on the floor, we can't run fast. We can't give them 100 {points}, because we probably won't score more than that. That's who we are and that's who we've been for years."

How do they get away with it? It starts with Eaton, who camps out in the lane as long as possible, shaded toward his man, but gets out just before it's too late. Stockton lingers when the ball goes inside, not quite double-teaming, not quite going back to his man. Thus he's able to help in any direction - inside, against people cutting down the lane and against his own man.

"We know the rules," burly forward Mike Brown said. "We take advantage of the 2.9 seconds, going down and coming back. And usually, we don't get too many zone defense calls.

-NOTEBOOK; No Matter What They Call It, Jazz Dials Z for (Illegal) Zone, David Aldridge Washington Post, May 19, 1992

Auerbach, incidentally, feels that the NBA should do something immediately to end some current tactics. "The games I am watching in the playoffs are too physical," he said. "There is too much clutching and grabbing and holding away from the ball that is not being called. What some of these teams are getting away with in the name of defense is outrageous. Two guys jump out to double up on one guy and the other three guys play in a zone behind them. That's illegal, but it is not being called. I know there is a feeling that if everything that is going on is going to be called, it would slow the game down, but I feel the other way. Call all the fouls. Send everyone to the line. It wouldn't take long to stop it. There is no reason for all this hitting and banging. Some of the picks they are setting are more than picks. They are meant to hurt guys, and that is not right."

-Ziegler buyout deal: it's bye and out as NHL leader, Boston Globe May 30, 1992, David McDonough

Specifically, the Bulls will have to do a better job of handling Seattle's pressure defense. They didn't do that in the first meeting, particularly when the Sonics employed half-court and full-court traps.

"They play a zone; they play a zone defense," Bulls coach Phil Jackson said.

"They shove you in the corner, they trap you at halfcourt, they run off and double team you."

Aren't zone defenses illegal in the NBA?

"It's a legal zone in the NBA," Jackson said.

-Bulls Relish Chance To Erase Bad Taste, John Jackson Chicago Sun Times, January 9, 1996

SALT LAKE CITY (AP) -- Everybody's picking on the Utah Jazz -- even the Jazz themselves.

Coach Jerry Sloan and three of his veterans criticized the team's bench players and youngsters Wednesday at the same time that Seattle SuperSonics coach George Karl was accusing Utah of employing illegal tactics.

"Utah plays the best zone in basketball. They play a 2-1-2 with five guys with a foot in the paint 90 percent of the time," Karl said in Seattle on the second of three consecutive off days in the Western Conference finals.

-HEY, IT'S GANG UP ON UTAH DAY, The Columbian Vancouver (AP), May 23, 1996

"Nate McMillan (a Sonics reserve guard) wants us to put in a 1-3-1 zone, and that might be the best defense against the Chicago Bulls," Karl said.

"Playing Chicago man-to-man is going to be awful scary. I believe Michael (Jordan) is going to be much like Hakeem (Olajuwon). So, we're going to go back to playing the way we like to play - and that's double-teamming.

"In this series, we didn't double-team much. I think we've got to play more Sonic basketball. So, I think we're going to be trapping him a lot."

-Karl Looking to Be in a Zone vs. Bulls, Chicago Sun Times, Lacy Banks, June 3, 1996

Karl said he will do a lot of double-teaming and triple-teaming, if necessary, to stop Jordan. He even threatened to try an illegal 1-3-1 zone suggested by McMillan.

"We're going to give him many looks," Karl said.

And one of those looks eventually will have to be Payton.

"You've got to do a lot of different things against him," Payton said. "You can't just keep one person on him because once he gets on a groove, . . . he'll start going off.

"So you switch him up. You put somebody bigger on him. You put somebody quicker on him. You put somebody with great hands on him. You do a lot of things. You can't just let him have one look because he will get a rhythm to you, start to know the person and wear you down.

-Running From Cover // Top Defender Payton Won't Be Matched Up Against Jordan, Lacey J. Banks, June, 4 1996

[chips93]

You guys are so ignorant about the game - you think shading on PNR's just happens today?.... It's ALWAYS happened - teams have ALWAYS forced PNR's one direction or another:


eh, no

i never said thibs invented it, just that it fit in as part of his strongside flooding scheme

regardless, only one of those gifs is actually ICEing the pick and roll, and it looks unintentional. most of these gifs have the big just staying back in the lane to stop penetration, nothing to do with ICEing.

ICEing is stopping the ball handler from getting to the middle of the paint in a side pick and roll, by the defensive player standing between the ball handler and the pick, forcing him to go towards the baseline.

[DonDadda59]

Waits patiently for some clown to say Zach Lowe or Henry Abbott>Phil Jackson http://www.ininternet.org/html/personaggi_simpson/lenny.bmp

[chips93]

so sometimes teams got away with zone defense

who was game planning their defense predicated on loading up the strongside to stop iso scorers? nobody was doing it until thibs thought of it in the mid 2000s.

[GIF REACTION]

by this I presume you mean copy and pasting coaches complaining over illegal zone defenses?

since when did losing coaches complaining about officiating mean anything?


regardless if some refs enforced rules stronger than others, the fact is those rules arent enforced at all today since they dont exist.

so even if refs only called them sporadically back then, teams still didnt have total free reign to play zone like they do today, when it never gets called.



if you have an argument beyond "refs never called zone defense", I would genuinely be interested in reading it. the evolution of nba defense/offense is fascinating to me.
It started with the Knicks in the mid 90's.... As the league goes, everyone copied their defense... Teams were getting away with zones, but it was not a league wide thing like it is now.... Otherwise we wouldn't have been getting those complaints that Don is posting as his holy scripture.

Just as people copied the Knicks defense in the 90s, people copied the pace offense principles of the 2004-2005 Phoenix Suns... And just as people copied 2008 Boston's defense, spearheaded by Thibs...

[GIF REACTION]

It's like the hand check rule shit

There were high scoring teams before that shit

2002-2003 Dallas

2001-2002 Kings

2002-2003 Kings

[sdot_thadon]

My mind is wide awake bro.




:lol

ImStillSnitchin is posting quotes from nerds who clearly don't know shit about basketball and I've countered all of his bullshit with reality based fact. Scoring, Shooting %s, and pace have increased since the rule changes that were explicitly designed to accomplish all of those things.

Since he never got back to me on the issue, maybe you'd like to tackle it...

Go ahead and show me any decade to decade period (shit you could even do half decades), where the scoring, shooting %s, and pace of the league INCREASED league wide since the merger outside of the post rule changes era.

I'll paypal you some Dadda fun bucks if you can. They're redeemable at any store that serves fresh crow.
Here's the main issue, you pasted your stash and it didn't prove anything otherwise to what gif reaction was saying. Absolutely nothing.

You try and discredit dudes who happen to study the game for a living, Mr. Armchair analyst. Those guy's word HD more weight than yours ever will.

The fluctuations the league went through were actually explained in some of the quotes mr. Gif posted. You should do a reread, educate yourself a bit. I'll see ya then.:coleman:

[chips93]

theres a difference between having a rule sporadically enforced, and not having that rule at all

[GIF REACTION]

It's more or less just teams started to not play like ****ing morons and start playing winning basketball

Go look at offenses in the mid/late 90's

That shit will make any defense look good

[DonDadda59]

so sometimes teams got away with zone defense

:oldlol:


who was game planning their defense predicated on loading up the strongside to stop iso scorers? nobody was doing it until thibs thought of it in the mid 2000s.

Pat Riley. His Lakers played man with zone principles in the 80s and in the 90s he was running far more advanced defenses with the Knicks than anything you see today.


Here's the main issue, you pasted your stash and it didn't prove anything otherwise to what gif reaction was saying. Absolutely nothing.

Zone has always been around, brody. There's no defense being played now that Jordan didn't see back in his day (with the added caveats of more physicality and no cleared out lanes).


You try and discredit dudes who happen to study the game for a living, Mr. Armchair analyst. Those guy's word HD more weight than yours ever will.

The fluctuations the league went through were actually explained in some of the quotes mr. Gif posted. You should do a reread, educate yourself a bit. I'll see ya then.

So basically you can't show me any period in NBA History post merger where the entire league scored more on higher percentages and paces other than the post rule changes era?

All those Dadda fun bucks gone to waste SMH (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_IXzU-lnLU)

[Sarcastic]

so sometimes teams got away with zone defense

who was game planning their defense predicated on loading up the strongside to stop iso scorers? nobody was doing it until thibs thought of it in the mid 2000s.

Bad Boy Pistons went beyond that. They were doubling Jordan every time he touched the ball from three point line extended.

[GIF REACTION]

Holy shit

The Jordan Bad Boys mythology continues

Why do you even still hang around here

None of you guys even support a team anymore

Don doesn't even support a team

[chips93]

theres a difference between Rileys teams sometimes playing zone, and todays league, where every team plays zone.

ive watched enough magic era laker games to know they didnt get away with blatant zones like todays teams do.

[GIF REACTION]

It's funny some of the most RENOWNED world wide NBA writers are saying this shit

Not me

It's simply a childhood fantasy that these middle aged men are still trying to protect

Just look at Bruce Blitz and his Nobody Touches Jordan youtube account, or his 3ball account

It's pathetic

[chips93]

Bad Boy Pistons went beyond that. They were doubling Jordan every time he touched the ball from three point line extended.

i know

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/NLv2F33snCE/0.jpg

here is the pistons are about to double team jordan

they have to leave the three point shooter on the right wing open, because they cant zone up behind the double team, as they do today.

[GIF REACTION]

i know

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/NLv2F33snCE/0.jpg

here is the pistons about to double team jordan

they have to leave the three point shooter on the right wing open, because they cant zone up behind the double team, as they do today.
Imagine a 2015 offense against that

Holy shit

They would rain 3's all night long

[DonDadda59]

theres a difference between Rileys teams sometimes playing zone, and todays league, where every team plays zone.

According to Synergy Sports, NBA teams play zone defense in only 2.7% of their possessions. No team has played higher than 10%.

On the flipside:


If, as most everyone assumes, the league's Board of Governors passes the Colangelo Committee's proposed rules changes next week, zone defenses will become completely legal beginning next season. They are already quasi-legal. Pat Riley's Lakers used "man defense with zone principles" 15 years ago.

-David Aldridge, ESPN. April 7, 2001

Copy-Paste skillz on point. Zach Lowe can go kick rocks. :pimp:

And I dare you, challenge you to find me a more advanced defense than this right here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5btsDbkBonA

The Knicks start off in a full court zone press, then when the ball crosses mid court, they transition to a strong side trapping zone where they send 3 defenders, using 2 different traps on Jordan. Once he Houdinis his way through that, he's met by a 7 ft shot blocking monster who was camped out in the paint.

Show me the goods. Please.

[3ball]

:facepalm

[3ball]

loading up the strongside to stop iso scorers? nobody was doing this until thibs thought of it in the mid 2000s.




Why would a defense need to load up the strongside when all 10 guys are already on the strongside and/or in the paint???


http://i.imgur.com/0l1UUv8.gif


In eras where the 3-point shot wasn't used, there was no one spacing the weakside of the floor - previous eras didn't have weakside spacing to reduce the number of strongside defenders like today's game.

Otoh, in today's game, weakside spacing is used by all teams to reduce the number of strongside defenders - the lower number of strongside defenders caused by today's weakside spacing necessitates flooding..

But go ahead and leave the spacing factor out of your analysis - it's just that you won't have an argument if you do.

[3ball]

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/NLv2F33snCE/0.jpg


Imagine a 2015 offense against that (lack of spacing)

They would rain 3's all night long



Exactly - the 3-point shooting would create much bigger passing and driving lanes than what you see above - MJ would run roughshod with all the extra room.

[Blue&Orange]

If you think about it, it was a much watered down league thanks to the expansion which means less great scoring players on each team, which means less ppg.

Amazing quote.

First somehow a 30 team league is was much watered down compared to today 30 team league, great math skills, great rationale.

Second, less scoring players on each team = less ppg? So Wade and Bosh playing alongside Lebron should have scored more than on their teams?


great stuff.

[Sarcastic]

i know

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/NLv2F33snCE/0.jpg

here is the pistons are about to double team jordan

they have to leave the three point shooter on the right wing open, because they cant zone up behind the double team, as they do today.


Umm of course someone is gonna be open if you double team. That's exactly the point of a double team. You leave one guy to guard another with 2 people.

I watched every Knick game with Mike Woodson coaching, who is supposedly a great defensive coach. This is with Tyson Chandler and Iman Shumpert too. And holy fcking shit, we used to give up sooooo many fcking open 3s. It was an absolute joke. This was with a new modern defense, where we switched on every pnr. Every defender would be out of position on nearly every play.

[GIF REACTION]

1979 league average offensive rating: 103.8

1981-82
• Zone defense rules clarified with new rules for Illegal Defensive Alignments.
a. Weak side defenders may come in the pro lane (16’), but not in the college lane (12’) for more than three seconds.
b. Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player adjacent to paint area).
c. Player without ball may not be double-teamed from weak side.
d. Offensive player above foul line and inside circle must be played by defender inside dotted line.
e. If offensive player is above the top of the circle, defender must come to a position above foul line.
f. Defender on cutter must follow the cutter, switch, or double-team the ball.

1982: League average offensive rating 106.9

[GIF REACTION]

There's your answer don

[chips93]

According to Synergy Sports, NBA teams play zone defense in only 2.7% of their possessions. No team has played higher than 10%.

synergy only considers it a zone, in the conventional sense.

the man-zone hybrid defenses that we've been talking about are categorised as man defense by synergy.


[INDENT]If, as most everyone assumes, the league's Board of Governors passes the Colangelo Committee's proposed rules changes next week, zone defenses will become completely legal beginning next season. They are already quasi-legal. Pat Riley's Lakers used "man defense with zone principles" 15 years ago.


theres a difference between Rileys teams sometimes playing zone, and todays league, where every team plays zone.


And I dare you, challenge you to find me a more advanced defense than this right here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5btsDbkBonA

The Knicks start off in a full court zone press, then when the ball crosses mid court, they transition to a strong side trapping zone where they send 3 defenders, using 2 different traps on Jordan. Once he Houdinis his way through that, he's met by a 7 ft shot blocking monster who was camped out in the paint.

I never said modern defense is more complicated or advanced, just better since they have more freedom with less stringent rules.

there is a lot of moving parts in this defense, but they do a terrible job on the double team. jordan isnt gonna raise up and knock in 3s over a double, so there is no excuse for letting him go baseline.

its a phenomenal move by jordan, but just because the defense is elaborate doesnt mean that its great.
and the seven footer isnt camped in the lane, he was guarding grant.

[chips93]

Umm of course someone is gonna be open if you double team. That's exactly the point of a double team. You leave one guy to guard another with 2 people..

a double team should never leave the open man one pass away, as is seen in that screengrab

[DonDadda59]

There's your answer don

Here's your answer bitch:


The NBA has always outlawed zone defenses guarding an area of the floor, instead of a man by the logic that giant centers would dominate the game too much if allowed to roam around and the 24-second shot clock places enough pressure on the offense. Through the years, the no-zone idea has evolved into the latest rule, adopted in 1981 after Cotton Fitzsimmons, Don Nelson and Dick Motta holed up in a room and came up with the guidelines.

-ILLEGAL DEFENSE RULE IS AS CONFUSING AS NEW TAX LAWS AND FULL OF NEARLY AS MANY LOOPHOLES; Kurt Kragthorpe; Thursday, April 14 1988

What particularly bothers Motta is that many teams try to get away with zone defenses now, content to only be penalized by a technical foul. "Our teams are zoning now. Rule or no rule. We're not allowed to use the word `zone' but it's a zone," Motta said.

-THE NBA HAS THIS RULE ABOUT ILLEGAL DEFENSE, BUT WHO CAN EXPLAIN IT, AND WILL IT EVER GO AWAY? A TWILIGHT ZONE (LA Daily News April 14, 1996 Scott Wolf)



The man who wrote the illegal defense rules in the early 80s said in the mid 90s that teams were playing zone, rule or no rule. And he was also on the committee that abolished the rule.

I'm starting to feel bad. You're trying so hard. Don't make me keep doing this to you. :(

[chips93]

Exactly - the 3-point shooting would create much bigger passing and driving lanes than what you see above - MJ would run roughshod with all the extra room.

hence why nobody plays that defense today

[GIF REACTION]

"Content to only be penalized by a technical foul"

And there's your answer BRO.

I've already addressed the zones in the 90's

Zone principles were not league wide and legal by the books like it is now

[GIF REACTION]

Did Marijuana usage increase after legalization in Colorado?

YES.

Did Zone principles in defense schemes increase after legalization in the NBA?

YES.

[chips93]

Did Marijuana usage increase after legalization in Colorado?

YES.

Did Zone principles in defense schemes increase after legalization in the NBA?

YES.

thats a great analogy

[DonDadda59]

Did Marijuana usage increase after legalization in Colorado?

YES.

Did Zone principles in defense schemes increase after legalization in the NBA?

YES.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

I'll pour out some liquor for you tonight.

https://libcom.org/files/images/library/nas-hip-hop-dead[1].jpg

[Sarcastic]

a double team should never leave the open man one pass away, as is seen in that screengrab

That really depends on who you are doubling and who you are leaving open.

[chips93]

That really depends on who you are doubling and who you are leaving open.

true, but its a rule of thumb that applies in most cases.

unless the ball handler is a horrid passer, or the open man is a horrible shooter, it applies.

[GIF REACTION]

Do you even support a team don

Or do you just follow modern NBA for new material to add to you and 3ball's copy paste agenda encyclopedia?

[chips93]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

I'll pour out some liquor for you tonight.

https://libcom.org/files/images/library/nas-hip-hop-dead[1].jpg

as usual more smileys than thoughts

why quote somebody if you arent gonna address anything they said? you're not fooling anyone

Ive wasted enough time in this thread today :durantunimpressed:

[GIF REACTION]

Me too.

Another win for Team Logic and Honesty

[3ball]

Today's zone is better


Zone is only allowed OUTSIDE the paint.

To remain INSIDE the 16 x 19 foot painted area, today's defenders must stay "within armslength" of their man (about 3 feet)..

"Armslength" is the strictest defense possible outside of having the defender stand shoulder-to-shoulder with his man or something ridiculous like that... Nonetheless, this strictest-ever policy governs defenders in the most important area of the floor: the paint.






Today's strongside flood is a superior defensive tactic


It isn't superior, because flooders must flood to OUTSIDE the paint due to defensive 3 seconds - paint-camping is banned - plus defenders are already spread out further from guarding the 3-point line.. Flooding to outside the paint and being spaced out by defending 3-pointers is an inferior defensive setup to paint-camping and not being spread out.

No-spacing + legal paint camping makes it harder for penetrators than spacing + strongside flooding.. :confusedshrug:

So let's not avoid the elephant in the room - not only was paint-camping legal, but spacing creates wider lanes - that's the definition of spacing... Regardless of any zones (that only occur outside the paint anyway), the spacing causes today's defenders to help from a further distance - this is not disputable - it's physics.






Coaches didn't figure out how to use flooding appropriately until 2008



But since no-spacing + legal paint camping is a more effective defensive setup than spacing + flooding, league-wide ORtg still reached 108.3 in 2009, which is an all-time high.

Infact, ORtg was the highest it's ever been from 2008-2011... So how could flooding have hurt offenses when ORtg was higher than it's ever been from 2008-2011?






Coaches didn't use flooding appropriately until 2008 - that's when the big-time gunners started to disappear.



The media is spreading lies - Wade led the NBA in scoring in 2009 and Westbrook in 2015.

Both guys are similar players to MJ, except they're far inferior - they're worse shooters, with less moves and no post game.. If these guys can lead the modern NBA in scoring, MJ would do much better - he'd do exactly what he did in the 80's and 90's, which was lead the league in scoring every year.
.

[Trollsmasher]

In today's game, for a defender to remain in the 16 x 19 foot painted area, they must stay "within armslength" of their man (about 3 feet)..

"Armslength" is the strictest defense possible outside of having the defender stand shoulder-to-shoulder with his man or something ridiculous like that.. :oldlol:

Yet this stringent policy is what governs defenders in the most important area of the floor: the paint.
it has been proven that the current rules in fact improve the paint defense - the players, while coming over from outside the paint, gain momentum which helpes them to improve their Lateral Point of Contest

by moving the LPC a little bit further away from the basket than it was before this era (prime example - Jordan's dunk on Ewing, where Ewing jumps directly from under the hoop, with no chance of contesting in time), the % of successful contests of today's players has improved considerably (best rim protectors today hover around 40% FG at the rim, while the number was around 45% in the '90s) :cheers:

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-17-2015/dzzsgE.gif


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-28-2015/iDsifM.gif


the players, while coming over from outside the paint, gain momentum which helpes them to improve their Lateral Point of Contest



Complete BS, but you did it in a funny way.. Good job... However, coming over to help means defenders can be late and give up open or weakly contested shot... Otoh, already being there and waiting means the defender is never late.

Also, when all the defenders are occupying the paint, penetrators like Jordan usually can't even CONSIDER penetrating - a lot of times there were just too many people in there, forcing guys to pull-up from midrange much more (1st gif above).

Today's 3-point shooting/spacing and defensive 3 seconds forces big men to come OUT of their wheelhouse (the paint) to contest guards in THEIR wheelhouse, the perimeter.. Even Austin Rivers can be a superstar by beating bigs on the perimeter and finishing on unprotected rims (2nd gif above).
.

[GIF REACTION]

Wait

Where's the handchecking in the Jordan gif

LMAO

[Trollsmasher]

Complete BS, but you did it in a funny way.. Good job... However, coming over to help means defenders can be late and give up open or weakly contested shot... Otoh, already being there and waiting means the defender is never late.

Also, when all the defenders are occupying the paint, penetrators like Jordan usually can't even CONSIDER penetrating - a lot of times there were just too many people in there, forcing guys to pull-up from midrange much more (1st gif above).

Today's 3-point shooting/spacing and defensive 3 seconds forces big men to come OUT of their wheelhouse (the paint) to contest guards in THEIR wheelhouse, the perimeter.. Even Austin Rivers can be a superstar by beating bigs on the perimeter and finishing on unprotected rims (2nd gif above).
.
of course they can be late - but the elite defenders aren't late

https://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/jordan2.gif

if Ewing was allowed to come over and get a running takeoff instead of being forced to jump directly from under the hoop, he would have blocked Jordan's shit easily

[GIF REACTION]

of course they can be late - but the elite defenders aren't late

https://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/jordan2.gif

if Ewing was allowed to come over and get a running takeoff instead of being forced to jump directly from under the hoop, he would have blocked Jordan's shit easily
Bingo

It's why we don't have as many poster dunks as they did 20 years ago

Defense today is more preventative than it's ever been

Which is how it should be... 90's style defense was more reactive

[Trollsmasher]

Bingo

It's why we don't have as many poster dunks as they did 20 years ago

Defense today is more preventative than it's ever been

Which is how it should be... 90's style defense was more reactive
perfectly said:cheers:

[Dbrog]

:coleman:

Or maybe things just went the way the league intended- the game became more open, especially for perimeter guys and scoring and shooting %s went up across the board.

Answer this question honestly- do you really think the NBA changed the rules to make it more difficult to score? If so... why the f*ck would they do that? :confusedshrug:



:yaohappy:

League Wide
2001- 94.8 PPG/ .473 eFG
2014- 101 PPG/ .501 eFG (tied w/ 2010 for highest ever)

Damn... those offenses really did improve despite the better defense.

:lol

Well 5 pts is just the difference in 3s made in todays era so you are really only seeing about a 1 ppg difference but with less % (which I covered in a previous post about less overall talent in the league). Context is key...stop cherry picking stats.

[juju151111]

Bingo

It's why we don't have as many poster dunks as they did 20 years ago

Defense today is more preventative than it's ever been

Which is how it should be... 90's style defense was more reactive
No its because people rarely dunk on people or try. Look at Wiggins this year has a rookie and in fiba basketball. He almost has many poster has LJ whole career :roll: You have to have superior athletic ability to dunk on dpoty centers and Pf

[Dbrog]

Amazing quote.

First somehow a 30 team league is was much watered down compared to today 30 team league, great math skills, great rationale.

Second, less scoring players on each team = less ppg? So Wade and Bosh playing alongside Lebron should have scored more than on their teams?


great stuff.

Are people just dumb now? I already covered this. There's a substantially better player pool nowadays than were playing in the 90s (NOT TALKING ABOUT ELITE TALENTS...just the others). That's great if you have Ewing leading a team but then you have starks as your second best player who AT HIS PEAK, scored 16ppg. If you look at the 3rd and 4th guys or bench, you see how little overall talent the league had back then compared to today.

Why would I say bosh and wade should have scored more? Wade was putting up 26 and bosh was around 20. Tell me another team in the 90s who could do this with 3 guys. Not only that, look at Miamis bench when they finally got one. A bunch of those dudes could drop over 15ppg. Again, idk wtf you people are talking about. Very talented scorers nowadays.

[DonDadda59]

Well 5 pts is just the difference in 3s made in todays era so you are really only seeing about a 1 ppg difference but with less % (which I covered in a previous post about less overall talent in the league). Context is key...stop cherry picking stats.

:rolleyes:

All of the bullshit that ImStillSnitchin spews out, I've covered and debunked ad nauseam. If you had just read further, I already covered the more 3s = more points bullshit (at the bottom) (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11744915&postcount=54).

Teams aren't scoring more on higher percentages now because they're taking 6 and making 1.8 more 3s than they were in 1998.

As teams took more 3s throughout the 90s, scoring plummeted from 107 PPG in 1990 (6.6 3s/gm) to 91.8 PPG in 1999 (13.2 3s/gm).

But as PPG went from 95 to 101 from '01 to '14... it was because teams went from shooting 15 to 22 3s/gm?

F*ck outta here. :oldlol:


Are people just dumb now? I already covered this. There's a substantially better player pool nowadays than were playing in the 90s (NOT TALKING ABOUT ELITE TALENTS...just the others). That's great if you have Ewing leading a team but then you have starks as your second best player who AT HIS PEAK, scored 16ppg. If you look at the 3rd and 4th guys or bench, you see how little overall talent the league had back then compared to today.

And you say this as LeBron JUST led Matthew Dellavadova and Timofey Mozgov to the finals in statistically the worst conference in NBA History.

:yaohappy:

[juju151111]

thats not what the article is about

its not saying that perimeter players didnt double team back then, its saying that they had fewer ways of double teaming back then, which is true.

in the video, every double team comes straight at him, so one man is always open.

however today you can send one player to swipe at the ball, without all the way committing to a double team, which would be a zone defense violation. (you can argue about how strictly this rule was called, but it still got called often enough back then).

And you can send a double team, and zone up with the remaining 3 defensive players, playing a zone defense on the remaining 4 offensive players.



nobody is saying that howard is as good as hakeem, or that lebron is as good as jordan, or that lebron or howard would be as good as hakeem/jordan if they got to play in the 90s.

but the fact is that modern nba defenses make it harder to score in isolation, thanks to the zone defense rules. the hand checking ban helps today's offensive players, but not enough to offset the zone defense rules.
Watch the video i just posted. They are doing exactly what you say amd you guys are saying that. You making excuses on why Dwight Howard is absolutely horrible. The funny thing us Dwight Howard best year in the Post was 2011 when he trained by Hakeem.

Watch the video they are doing the samethings. They are some that go in for the full double and some that swipe and they zone up on all the other players.

[GIF REACTION]

:rolleyes:

All of the bullshit that ImStillSnitchin spews out, I've covered and debunked ad nauseam. If you had just read further, I already covered the more 3s = more points bullshit (at the bottom) (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11744915&postcount=54).

Teams aren't scoring more on higher percentages now because they're taking 6 and making 1.8 more 3s than they were in 1998.

As teams took more 3s throughout the 90s, scoring plummeted from 107 PPG in 1990 (6.6 3s/gm) to 91.8 PPG in 1999 (13.2 3s/gm).

But as PPG went from 95 to 101 from '01 to '14... it was because teams went from shooting 15 to 22 3s/gm?

F*ck outta here. :oldlol:



And you say this as LeBron JUST led Matthew Dellavadova and Timofey Mozgov to the finals in statistically the worst conference in NBA History.

:yaohappy:
They started to take more 3's in the 90's, because teams found ways to exploit the illegal defense rules which were brought in to open up the floor/lane back in 1981.... Which it DID do


1979 league average offensive rating: 103.8

1981-82
• Zone defense rules clarified with new rules for Illegal Defensive Alignments.
a. Weak side defenders may come in the pro lane (16’), but not in the college lane (12’) for more than three seconds.
b. Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player adjacent to paint area).
c. Player without ball may not be double-teamed from weak side.
d. Offensive player above foul line and inside circle must be played by defender inside dotted line.
e. If offensive player is above the top of the circle, defender must come to a position above foul line.
f. Defender on cutter must follow the cutter, switch, or double-team the ball.

1982: League average offensive rating 106.9

Driving to the hoop became less of an option, so naturally outside shooting increased. Not exactly a shocker donald.

The Illegal defense no-calling is pretty much the same as Handcheck no-calling today. People still do it every game... But it still gets called.

[dubeta]

:rolleyes:

All of the bullshit that ImStillSnitchin spews out, I've covered and debunked ad nauseam. If you had just read further, I already covered the more 3s = more points bullshit (at the bottom) (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11744915&postcount=54).

Teams aren't scoring more on higher percentages now because they're taking 6 and making 1.8 more 3s than they were in 1998.

As teams took more 3s throughout the 90s, scoring plummeted from 107 PPG in 1990 (6.6 3s/gm) to 91.8 PPG in 1999 (13.2 3s/gm).

But as PPG went from 95 to 101 from '01 to '14... it was because teams went from shooting 15 to 22 3s/gm?

F*ck outta here. :oldlol:



And you say this as LeBron JUST led Matthew Dellavadova and Timofey Mozgov to the finals in statistically the worst conference in NBA History.

:yaohappy:


He doesnt even post here yet still living rent free :yaohappy:

[DonDadda59]

They started to take more 3's in the 90's, because teams found ways to exploit the illegal defense rules which were brought in to open up the floor/lane back in 1981.... Which it DID do

Your stupidity knows no bounds.

They started taking more 3s because the NBA eliminated full court hand-checking (which teams like the Bulls and Knicks spammed using zone traps, 1 on 1 pressure, etc) and the temporary shortening of the 3-point line at the same time (around the '95 season, when 3 attempts went from 10-15 attempts/gm in just one season).

Eventually the line was moved back, but 3 point attempts continued to increase as the league continued to free up perimeter players/shooters from the pressures of hand-checking.




Driving to the hoop became less of an option, so naturally outside shooting increased. Not exactly a shocker donald.

Dwyane Wade. Tony Parker. Same career 3 attempts/gm as Jordan. They have 7 championships, 2 finals MVPs, a scoring title between them.

Even a guy like Harden who chucks 3s indiscriminately still gets to the basket at will (and gets an absurd amount of FTs out of it).

Once again, your baseless hypotheticals have no place in reality.


The Illegal defense no-calling is pretty much the same as Handcheck no-calling today. People still do it every game... But it still gets called.

The only time the refs ease up on hand-check calls is during the playoffs, which everyone and their grandmother knows has always been more physical than the regular season. It's exactly why certain players who are used to the luxuries of a soft league struggle in the playoffs (see: Harden, James. Mr. Unreliable, etc).


He doesnt even post here yet still living rent free :yaohappy:

So we finally found the one member of the Bron Family who isn't an alt of yours. :lol

Well played, Beta. Well played.

[3ball]

Elite defenders are never late


Even using your false logic, only 2% of NBA defenders are elite... The other 98% are late.

Of course, in reality, elite defenders are late all the time too - almost as much as non-elite defenders.






On the MJ poser, if Ewing was allowed to come over and get a running takeoff instead of being forced to jump directly from under the hoop, he would have blocked Jordan's shit easily



So that's your argument - previous eras had it easier because they had to posterize guys like MJ did Ewing?

:roll:

Face the facts - you admitted that today's defenders must help from outside the paint - that's all I need to be correct - you lost right there.

Due to 3-point shooting/spacing that draws defenders to the perimeter and also defensive 3 seconds, today's wing players have the opportunity to BEAT the help defense to the open paint - this benefits more athletic wings and guards, who now get far more uncontested and weakly contested shots at the rim.

Otoh, in previous eras, the lack of 3-point shooting meant there were often too many players in the paint for guys like MJ to even CONSIDER penetration - the sheer number of players occupying the paint forced MJ, Dominique and the like to pull-up for a lot more midrange jumpers.

[GIF REACTION]

I wouldn't call 6 finals appearances and a 29 PPG average struggling

[juju151111]

Your stupidity knows no bounds.

They started taking more 3s because the NBA eliminated full court hand-checking (which teams like the Bulls and Knicks spammed using zone traps, 1 on 1 pressure, etc) and the temporary shortening of the 3-point line at the same time (around the '95 season, when 3 attempts went from 10-15 attempts/gm in just one season).

Eventually the line was moved back, but 3 point attempts continued to increase as the league continued to free up perimeter players/shooters from the pressures of hand-checking.





Dwyane Wade. Tony Parker. Same career 3 attempts/gm as Jordan. They have 7 championships, 2 finals MVPs, a scoring title between them.

Even a guy like Harden who chucks 3s indiscriminately still gets to the basket at will (and gets an absurd amount of FTs out of it).

Once again, your baseless hypotheticals have no place in reality.



The only time the refs ease up on hand-check calls is during the playoffs, which everyone and their grandmother knows has always been more physical than the regular season. It's exactly why certain players who are used to the luxuries of a soft league struggle in the playoffs (see: Harden, James. Mr. Unreliable, etc).



So we finally found the one member of the Bron Family who isn't an alt of yours. :lol

Well played, Beta. Well played.
Especially James Harden. When he doesn't get every call its like he a different player. Teams are physical with him and he can't handle it

[juju151111]

I wouldn't call 6 finals appearances and a 29 PPG average struggling
What do you call james harden

[GIF REACTION]

Are you guys seriously trying to come at me with that angle?

We're talking about Michael Jordan

This dude got away free, zilch, nada, for clearly punching an opposing player IN THE FACE

Jordan got more calls than anyone in NBA history

If they had worldwide/internet exposure back then like they do now, Jordan would have been ROASTED

[Trollsmasher]

Even using your false logic, only 2% of NBA defenders are elite... The other 98% are late.

Of course, in reality, elite defenders are late all the time too - almost as much as non-elite defenders.



So that's your argument - previous eras had it easier because they had to posterize guys like MJ did Ewing?
yes, it isn't that hard to posterize a bad contest:

average '90s contest

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/0pogVDN9_Mw/maxresdefault.jpg

directly from under the rim - Ewing has no momentum because he jumps from the standstill while Jordan has momentum and is thus able to easily go through heavier Ewing

additionaly the standing vertical of Ewing can't obviously match a running vert - by the time Ewing jumps, MJ has already gone way up unchallenged

average '10s contest

http://cdn-jpg.si.com/sites/default/files/si/dam/assets/14/02/11/140211174029-roy-hibbert-4-single-image-cut.jpg

two feet away from the rim with a running start - the defending player has a momentum and is thus able to put his weight to use, the attacking player has to be extremly strong and dynamic to move forward through such a brick wall

additionally, the defender is able to utilize running vertical and get higher and contest the attacker earlier - even if the attacker is able to go through the defender, he has to resort to a higher degree difficulty layup because the heavy and !early! clash with the defender prevents him from reaching his jumping peak

it's pretty clear and simple:cheers:

Lateral Point of Contest (LPC) is simply one of the newest defensive evaluation measures and not everybody is up to the speed yet. For a long time LPC was almost directly under the hoop - the defensive 3 seconds made possible to move it further out from the basket (1.5-2 feet away from the edge of the rim) which in turn made contesting easier for the defensive anchors.

[DonDadda59]

Imagine how hard it would be for 2/6 to get off a 3-point shot (or any shot) if he had to face full court, physical defense in real games and not just the all star weekend:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-02-2015/vTBESR.gif

That's what perimeter players in the 90s faced every game:

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You just don't see full court, physical presses on ball handlers any more.

That's why when you watch old school games and you see PGs back down going up the court or at the 3... why Reggie Miller had to fight off multiple screens just to get an open look.

The NBA knew exactly what it was doing when it started the process of making the game soft as butter.

Perimeter players now can get off a shot literally any time they want with no real resistance... and guys like MVP Steph Curry are taking FULL advantage of it.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-08-2015/Vbg-am.gif

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Can you explain what went into the hand-check rule and break that down how it’s been successful thus far?

NBA Exec: The hand check has always been a part of pro basketball. What we have done is interpret the hand check slightly different in that, if a defender has what I’ll refer to as a “stayed hand” on the defender, e.g. with a stiffened elbow, a foul on the defense would be called if it affects the offensive player's speed, rhythm or balance. It's been five years since we really began to interpret the hand check in this way, and we continue to focus on enforcement.

Three years ago, before the ’04-05 season, we also began to really interpret and enforce the forearm and body check, where by we had defenders either placing a hand or a forearm on an offensive player’s shoulder or hip in an effort to slow them down and give them a defensive advantage in terms of sliding in front of the offensive player. When we disallowed that – the use of the hand, the use of the forearm to the shoulder, the hip, the body – that in conjunction with the hand check interpretation started to give offensive players on the perimeter more offensive freedom.

:applause:

But of course the idiots will continue to argue with the people who actually changed the rules. :yaohappy:

[GIF REACTION]

That has ALREADY been mentioned donald

Yes, it is slightly easier to beat your man defender

But that's not the point

Defense is SO much more

You got lines behind the man defender now

Much more so than even the mid to late 90's when teams were getting away with illegal defense no calls

Much more so

[DonDadda59]

That has ALREADY been mentioned donald

Yes, it is slightly easier to beat your man defender

But that's not the point

Defense is SO much more

You got lines behind the man defender now

Much more so than even the mid to late 90's when teams were getting away with illegal defense no calls

Much more so

Absolute garbage.

[INDENT][B]You point out that while scoring is going up, there

[juju151111]

Are you guys seriously trying to come at me with that angle?

We're talking about Michael Jordan

This dude got away free, zilch, nada, for clearly punching an opposing player IN THE FACE

Jordan got more calls than anyone in NBA history

If they had worldwide/internet exposure back then like they do now, Jordan would have been ROASTED
What is Mj fta from 91-98. Are you retarded. He averaged like 7-8 fts. How us that alot

[3ball]

Face the facts GIF REACTION - you admitted that today's defenders must help from outside the paint - that's all I need to be correct - you lost right there.

Due to 3-point shooting/spacing that draws defenders to the perimeter and also defensive 3 seconds, today's wing players have the opportunity to BEAT the help defense to the open paint - this benefits more athletic wings and guards, who now get far more uncontested and weakly contested shots at the rim.

Otoh, in previous eras, the lack of 3-point shooting meant there were often too many players in the paint for guys like MJ to even CONSIDER penetration - the sheer number of players occupying the paint forced MJ, Dominique and the like to pull-up for a lot more midrange jumpers.

[3ball]

Today's zone is better


Zone is only allowed OUTSIDE the paint.

To remain INSIDE the 16 x 19 foot painted area, today's defenders must stay "within armslength" of their man (about 3 feet)..

"Armslength" is the strictest defense possible outside of having the defender stand shoulder-to-shoulder with his man or something ridiculous like that... Nonetheless, this strictest-ever policy governs defenders in the most important area of the floor: the paint.






Today's strongside flood is a superior defensive tactic


It isn't superior, because flooders must flood to OUTSIDE the paint due to defensive 3 seconds - paint-camping is banned - plus defenders are already spread out further from guarding the 3-point line.. Flooding to outside the paint and being spaced out by defending 3-pointers is an inferior defensive setup to paint-camping and not being spread out.

No-spacing + legal paint camping makes it harder for penetrators than spacing + strongside flooding.. :confusedshrug:

So let's not avoid the elephant in the room - not only was paint-camping legal, but spacing creates wider lanes - that's the definition of spacing... Regardless of any zones (that only occur outside the paint anyway), the spacing causes today's defenders to help from a further distance - this is not disputable - it's physics.






Coaches didn't figure out how to use flooding appropriately until 2008



But since no-spacing + legal paint camping is a more effective defensive setup than spacing + flooding, league-wide ORtg still reached 108.3 in 2009, which is an all-time high.

Infact, ORtg was the highest it's ever been from 2008-2011... So how could flooding have hurt offenses when ORtg was higher than it's ever been from 2008-2011?






Coaches didn't use flooding appropriately until 2008 - that's when the big-time gunners started to disappear.



The media is spreading lies - Wade led the NBA in scoring in 2009 and Westbrook in 2015.

Both guys are similar players to MJ, except they're far inferior - they're worse shooters, with less moves and no post game.. If these guys can lead the modern NBA in scoring, MJ would do much better - he'd do exactly what he did in the 80's and 90's, which was lead the league in scoring every year.

[juju151111]

yes, it isn't that hard to posterize a bad contest:

average '90s contest

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/0pogVDN9_Mw/maxresdefault.jpg

directly from under the rim - Ewing has no momentum because he jumps from the standstill while Jordan has momentum and is thus able to easily go through heavier Ewing

additionaly the standing vertical of Ewing can't obviously match a running vert - by the time Ewing jumps, MJ has already gone way up unchallenged

average '10s contest

http://cdn-jpg.si.com/sites/default/files/si/dam/assets/14/02/11/140211174029-roy-hibbert-4-single-image-cut.jpg

two feet away from the rim with a running start - the defending player has a momentum and is thus able to put his weight to use, the attacking player has to be extremly strong and dynamic to move forward through such a brick wall

additionally, the defender is able to utilize running vertical and get higher and contest the attacker earlier - even if the attacker is able to go through the defender, he has to resort to a higher degree difficulty layup because the heavy and !early! clash with the defender prevents him from reaching his jumping peak

it's pretty clear and simple:cheers:

Lateral Point of Contest (LPC) is simply one of the newest defensive evaluation measures and not everybody is up to the speed yet. For a long time LPC was almost directly under the hoop - the defensive 3 seconds made possible to move it further out from the basket (1.5-2 feet away from the edge of the rim) which in turn made contesting easier for the defensive anchors.
Lateral jumping was always in the nba idiot. I agree with you on that play Ewing was late because he probably thought Mj was cornered wity the double. Also Patrick ewing is a better defensive center then Roy. He anchored one of the greatest defensive team ever in 93. Anyone can find a specific play where someone geys dunked on Gobert was the best at the rim byt still got his shit pushed in twice by Wiggins. Alot of players today don't have the speed and athletic ability to dunk on centers. Mj was dunking on 2 people at once. LJ has a few posters over the years but not at a consistent. Wiggins seems to be in the mold of Mj. Go for the dunk

[GIF REACTION]

But there was one that might be bothersome, the zone defense. It was the topic du jour at last month's All-Star Game, and Jordan was making an impassioned plea before the competition committee that had gathered to consider rules changes to enliven the NBA game. Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did.

Yep

[GIF REACTION]

"I never liked zones," Jordan said. "I felt like that's a lazy way to play defense and with them, you can eliminate a lot of the stars making things happen."


Bothered by Charlotte's zone defense, Jordan fell out of rhythm in the final period and made just five of his 11 tries. He missed four straight midway through the quarter, and after hitting a late 3-pointer to cut the deficit to four, the ball slipped out of Jordan's hands under Charlotte's basket after the Hornets double-teamed him.

...

[GIF REACTION]

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[juju151111]

Yep
Wasn't all those fears wrong when players like Kobe,Wizards Jordan,Iverson, tmac,PP etc.... were still superstars or did i imagine Kobe stringing together 40 pt games in 03 and a 38 yearold broken down man averging 25 ppg. Actually the scoring spike happened in 06. Now PG run the league

[DonDadda59]

...

Back to the old debunked material I see? Jordan wasn't even playing basketball when the rules committee met to discuss changing the rules, but he was making 'impassioned pleas'? :rolleyes:


"Bothered by Charlotte's zone defense, Jordan fell out of rhythm in the final period and made just five of his 11 tries. He missed four straight midway through the quarter, and after hitting a late 3-pointer to cut the deficit to four, the ball slipped out of Jordan's hands under Charlotte's basket after the Hornets double-teamed him."

LOL (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ye-0ghhY7uw)


https://static-ssl.businessinsider.com/image/548076d06da8111e5b7a8c96/michael%20jordan%20laughing%20gif.gif




Hold this L as usual and just let the thread fall off the main page and restart again tomorrow with the same recycled garbage like you always do. :cheers:

[juju151111]

...
Whats that quote from? Wizards Jordan years?

[GIF REACTION]

Then why has Top 10 scoring dropped off SIGNIFICANTLY since 2006?

Lol

Why do we have barely any 20 PPG scorers and pretty much 0 30 PPG scorers?

[juju151111]

Then why has Top 10 scoring dropped off SIGNIFICANTLY since 2006?

Lol

Why do we have barely any 20 PPG scorers and pretty much 0 30 PPG scorers?
They take less shot. If Westbrook wasn't injured in 14 Durant wouldn't of averged 30 ppg but he could. Also 30 ppg is rare. In the 90s Mj was the only consistent 30 ppg scorer.

[GIF REACTION]

And why do you think they take less shots

[3ball]

Since no-spacing + legal paint camping is a more effective defensive setup than spacing + flooding, league-wide ORtg reached 108.3 in 2009, which is an all-time high.

Infact, ORtg was the highest it's ever been from 2008-2011... So how could flooding have hurt offenses when ORtg was higher than it's ever been from 2008-2011?

Obviously, flooding was merely a stop-gap, gimmick tactic that was required only BECAUSE of the spacing and paint-camping ban... Certainly, if players didn't have to guard 3-pointers anymore and could paint-camp, this would be preferrable over guarding 3-pointers and flooding.

[3ball]

They take less shot. If Westbrook wasn't injured in 14 Durant wouldn't of averged 30 ppg but he could. Also 30 ppg is rare.


In the 90s Mj was the only consistent 30 ppg scorer.



Don't let these guys trick you - MJ was the ONLY 30 ppg scorer in the 90's besides Karl Malone, and Malone only did it once.

The 90's only had 2 players who averaged over 30, while pace and PPG were at their lowest levels ALL TIME - these are the facts.

[DonDadda59]

Then why has Top 10 scoring dropped off SIGNIFICANTLY since 2006?

Lol

Why do we have barely any 20 PPG scorers and pretty much 0 30 PPG scorers?

There were only 2 players who scored at least 30 PPG in the 90s- Michael Jordan and Karl Malone. Malone only did it once. From 2000-2010, there were 6 players who hit the 30 PPG plateau, with Iverson and Kobe (drafted in 1996) reaching 33 and 35 PPG respectively.

Since 2006, Kobe, Wade, Iverson, LeBron, Durant have all reached 30 PPG.

In summation... stop embarrassing yourself.

[3ball]

Since no-spacing + legal paint camping is a more effective defensive setup than spacing + flooding, league-wide ORtg reached 108.3 in 2009, which is an all-time high.

Infact, ORtg was the highest it's ever been from 2008-2011... So how could flooding have hurt offenses when ORtg was higher than it's ever been from 2008-2011?

Obviously, flooding was merely a stop-gap, gimmick tactic that was required only BECAUSE of the spacing and paint-camping ban... Certainly, if players didn't have to guard 3-pointers anymore and could paint-camp, this would be preferrable over guarding 3-pointers and flooding.


Indeed
.

[3ball]

There were only 2 players who scored at least 30 PPG in the 90s- Michael Jordan and Karl Malone. Malone only did it once. From 2000-2010, there were 6 players who hit the 30 PPG plateau, with Iverson and Kobe (drafted in 1996) reaching 33 and 35 PPG respectively.

Since 2006, Kobe, Wade, Iverson, LeBron, Durant have all reached 30 PPG.

In summation... stop embarrassing yourself.


The amazing thing to me is how none of these Lebron fans consider spacing AT ALL, even though spacing is what it's all about - today's defenders must help from further distances PERIOD... All the defensive tactics mean nothing in light of this fact..

Defenders used to take two or three steps to double or help on MJ... Now they must come all the way from the other side of the court (flood)... But since it's called a fancy name, people think it's more effective than the defender already being closer and waiting in the paint due to no spacing and legal paint-camping.. It's a ridiculous discussion.

[GIF REACTION]

When you got guys like Adrian Dantley dropping 30 every year, Orlando Wooldridge reaching 20PPG with ease, Kiki Vanderwee scoring up in the high 20's... You know that shit's ****ed

When you got guys like James Harden, Carmelo Anthony, Dwayne wade, Lebron James, Blake Griffin, Stephen Curry, Dwight Howard, Anthony Davis, Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook, Demarcus Cousins, Lamarcus Aldridge, barely getting over 20 a game, you know shits up.

[GIF REACTION]

/Thread

Another win for Team Logic

[3ball]

When you got guys like James Harden, Carmelo Anthony, Dwayne wade, Lebron James, Blake Griffin, Stephen Curry, Dwight Howard, Anthony Davis, Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook, Demarcus Cousins, Lamarcus Aldridge, barely getting over 20 a game, you know shits up.


There were only 2 players who scored at least 30 PPG in the 90s - Michael Jordan and Karl Malone. Malone only did it once.

From 2000-2010, there were 6 players who hit the 30 PPG plateau, with Iverson and Kobe (drafted in 1996) reaching 33 and 35 PPG respectively.

Since 2006, Kobe, Wade, Iverson, LeBron, Durant have all reached 30 PPG.

In summation... stop embarrassing yourself.

[juju151111]

When you got guys like Adrian Dantley dropping 30 every year, Orlando Wooldridge reaching 20PPG with ease, Kiki Vanderwee scoring up in the high 20's... You know that shit's ****ed

When you got guys like James Harden, Carmelo Anthony, Dwayne wade, Lebron James, Blake Griffin, Stephen Curry, Dwight Howard, Anthony Davis, Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook, Demarcus Cousins, Lamarcus Aldridge, barely getting over 20 a game, you know shits up.
Only Mj and akarl had 30 in the 90s

[GIF REACTION]

A few internet posters vs Zach Lowe and Henry Abbott, two of the most RENOWNED NBA analysts/writers on the face of the planet, getting paid big money to write about the game from an unbiased viewpoint.

Lol

[DonDadda59]

When you got guys like Adrian Dantley dropping 30 every year, Orlando Wooldridge reaching 20PPG with ease, Kiki Vanderwee scoring up in the high 20's... You know that shit's ****ed

When you got guys like James Harden, Carmelo Anthony, Dwayne wade, Lebron James, Blake Griffin, Stephen Curry, Dwight Howard, Anthony Davis, Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook, Demarcus Cousins, Lamarcus Aldridge, barely getting over 20 a game, you know shits up.

Bold- guys who scored at least 28 PPG in a season with Bron, Wade, and KD getting at least 30 PPG.

Durant and Westbrook, teammates, won back to back scoring titles getting 28-32 PPG for f*ckssake.

Has that ever happened in NBA History? Teammates winning B2B scoring titles with both guys getting at least 28 PPG? :biggums:

And Bron and Wade teamed up within 2 seasons of both of them getting 30 PPG.

Has that ever happened?

Holy shit do perimeter players have it made today. I hope these dudes send a bottle of champagne to Stu Jackson's house every Christmas.

[Vaniiiia]

When you got guys like Adrian Dantley dropping 30 every year, Orlando Wooldridge reaching 20PPG with ease, Kiki Vanderwee scoring up in the high 20's... You know that shit's ****ed

When you got guys like James Harden, Carmelo Anthony, Dwayne wade, Lebron James, Blake Griffin, Stephen Curry, Dwight Howard, Anthony Davis, Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook, Demarcus Cousins, Lamarcus Aldridge, barely getting over 20 a game, you know shits up.

[GIF REACTION]

1979 league average offensive rating: 103.8

1981-82
• Zone defense rules clarified with new rules for Illegal Defensive Alignments.
a. Weak side defenders may come in the pro lane (16’), but not in the college lane (12’) for more than three seconds.
b. Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player adjacent to paint area).
c. Player without ball may not be double-teamed from weak side.
d. Offensive player above foul line and inside circle must be played by defender inside dotted line.
e. If offensive player is above the top of the circle, defender must come to a position above foul line.
f. Defender on cutter must follow the cutter, switch, or double-team the ball.

1982: League average offensive rating 106.9

[3ball]

1982: League average offensive rating 106.9


2009: League average offensive rating: 108.3 (highest of all time)

[DonDadda59]

1979 league average offensive rating: 103.8

1981-82
• Zone defense rules clarified with new rules for Illegal Defensive Alignments.
a. Weak side defenders may come in the pro lane (16’), but not in the college lane (12’) for more than three seconds.
b. Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player adjacent to paint area).
c. Player without ball may not be double-teamed from weak side.
d. Offensive player above foul line and inside circle must be played by defender inside dotted line.
e. If offensive player is above the top of the circle, defender must come to a position above foul line.
f. Defender on cutter must follow the cutter, switch, or double-team the ball.

1982: League average offensive rating 106.9

Offenses got better, defenses didn't get worse. :lol

And teams were playing zone throughout the 80s and the 90s. Ask the dude who created the illegal defense rules. :yaohappy:

[GIF REACTION]

Did Marijuana usage increase after legalization in Colorado?

YES.

Did Zone principles in defense schemes increase after legalization in the NBA?

YES.

We're going around in circles because you guys like to use derailing tactics which forces me to start posting gifs and quotes

Logic wins, Zach Lowe and Henry Abbott win. I win. You lose.

[DonDadda59]

Did Marijuana usage increase after legalization in Colorado?

YES.

http://t.qkme.me/3rkgaw.jpg



We're going around in circles because you guys like to use derailing tactics which forces me to start posting gifs and quotes

Tell us more about Colorado and weed doe.

[3ball]

According to the NBA, the absence of today's defensive 3 seconds rule would mean the NBA allows a PURE ZONE, which would allow "frontcourt players to stand in the middle of the lane and discourage cutting, passing and dribble penetration:


The international game utilizes a pure zone defense (as opposed to the defensive three-second rule), which allows frontcourt players to stand in the middle of the lane and discourage cutting, passing and dribble penetration.

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html

[3ball]

When I watch footage of MJ, defenders only took a couple steps over to help, due to no spacing.

Nowadays, we have spacing and the fancy strongside flood, so defenders must come from the other side of the court to help (due to spacing).... How is this better again?

Certainly, if defenders didn't have to guard 3-pointers/spacing anymore and could paint-camp, this would be preferrable to ANY defense over guarding 3-pointers/spacing and flooding

[GIF REACTION]

Did Marijuana usage increase after legalization in Colorado?

YES.

Did Zone principles in defense schemes increase after legalization in the NBA?

YES.

We're going around in circles because you guys like to use derailing tactics which forces me to start posting gifs and quotes

Logic wins, Zach Lowe and Henry Abbott win. I win. You lose.

[Vaniiiia]

Did Marijuana usage increase after legalization in Colorado?

YES.

Did Zone principles in defense schemes increase after legalization in the NBA?

YES.

We're going around in circles because you guys like to use derailing tactics which forces me to start posting gifs and quotes

Logic wins, Zach Lowe and Henry Abbott win. I win. You lose.
https://cdn1.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/iJZ8dQFQoA3AJTdDoo5jEmksuso=/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3411394/dunk1react.0.gif

[dubeta]

LeBron Fam stays winning :banana:

[3ball]

https://cdn1.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/iJZ8dQFQoA3AJTdDoo5jEmksuso=/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3411394/dunk1react.0.gif


When it rains, things get wet... Similarly, when there is no spacing, defenders help from closer proximity... End of analogy.

And all this zone talk is nonsense - zone is not allowed in the 16 x 19 foot painted area!!!!!!!

Defenders must stay within "armslength", which is the strictest defense possible outside of having the defender stand shoulder-to-shoulder with his man or something ridiculous like that.. It's zone outside the paint, but hogtied inside the paint... Comprende?

And this is not bullshit that you can dismiss - the NBA and every single coach, player and analyst knows the NBA doesn't allow pure, true zones due to defensive 3 seconds... But carry on... I know you will.. :rolleyes:

[dhsilv]

When it rains, things get wet... Similarly, when there is no spacing, defenders help from closer proximity... End of analogy.

And all this zone talk is nonsense - zone is not allowed in the 16 x 19 foot painted area!!!!!!!

Defenders must stay within "armslength", which is the strictest defense possible outside of having the defender stand shoulder-to-shoulder with his man or something ridiculous like that.. It's zone outside the paint, but hogtied inside the paint... Comprende?

And this is not bullshit that you can dismiss - the NBA and every single coach, player and analyst knows the NBA doesn't allow pure, true zones due to defensive 3 seconds... But carry on... I know you will.. :rolleyes:

The zone rules matter. Defenses are better on top of that. Just reality..........

[3ball]

The zone rules matter. Defenses are better on top of that. Just reality..........


It's easier to score in the paint today because it's wide open - defenders can't occupy it - they must guard 3-pointers and stay out of the paint due to defensive 3 seconds.... Just the reality...........