List of players how have been considered the GOAT

[Marchesk]

At one time or another:

Mikan
Russell
Wilt
Oscar
Baylor
Kareem
Dr. J
Bird
Magic
Jordan
Kobe
Lebron

Not sure whether Shaq ever got that kind of love. And yes, some have said that Kobe or Lebron were the best ever at some point, just as some said that about Bird and Magic back in the day (Bird was definitely getting GOAT consideration during three-peat MVP years).

Anyone else?

[Psileas]

At one time or another:

Mikan
Russell
Wilt
Oscar
Baylor
Kareem
Dr. J
Bird
Magic
Jordan
Kobe
Lebron

Not sure whether Shaq ever got that kind of love. And yes, some have said that Kobe or Lebron were the best ever at some point, just as some said that about Bird and Magic back in the day (Bird was definitely getting GOAT consideration during three-peat MVP years).

Anyone else?

Yes. Elliot Kalb ranked him 1st in his book.

[kennethgriffin]

the best player ever is whatever criteria you use


best career = kareem
best prime = wilt
best winner = russell
best passer = magic
best shooter = bird
best all around = oscar
best rebounder = rodman
best teammate = duncan
best defender = hakeem
best dunker = vince
best innovator = Baylor
most dominant = shaq
most clutch = west
most skilled = kobe


or a combination of everything = jordan

[dubeta]

Kobe was Never the most 'skilled'


Lotta tiny guards were more skilled, just didnt have Kobe's freak athleticism


Steve Nash, John Havlicek, Chris Paul, Jerry West, Allen Iverson are all more skilled than Kobe in terms of fundementals


Then there are post players who were far more skilled overall like Duncan and Hakeem






Heck, make Kobe and LeBron switch bodies, and LeBron would still be better

[kennethgriffin]

Kobe was Never the most 'skilled'


Lotta tiny guards were more skilled, just didnt have Kobe's freak athleticism


Steve Nash, John Havlicek, Chris Paul, Jerry West, Allen Iverson are all more skilled than Kobe in terms of fundementals


Then there are post players who were far more skilled overall like Duncan and Hakeem






Heck, make Kobe and LeBron switch bodies, and LeBron would still be better


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtvRatRkevw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv37ykpYk84

[kennethgriffin]

Kobe Bryant

inside = 9/10
midrange = 10/10
long range = 8/10
contested = 10/10
handles = 8/10
footwork = 10/10
post up = 10/10
passing = 7/10
rebounding = 8/10 ( for height )
off hand = 10/10
driving = 9/10
defense = 9/10

Overall = 9/10 skills


michael Jordan

inside = 10/10
midrange = 10/10
long range = 6/10
contested = 9/10
handles = 7/10
footwork = 10/10
post up = 10/10
passing = 7/10
rebounding = 8/10 ( for height )
off hand = 8/10
driving = 10/10
defense = 10/10

total = 8.7/10 skills

Lebron james

inside = 10/10
midrange = 5/10
long range = 8/10
contested = 7/10
handles = 6/10
footwork = 3/10
post up = 5/10
passing = 10/10
rebounding = 7/10 ( for height )
off hand = 8/10
driving = 10/10
defense = 7/10

total = 7.1/10 skills

[riseagainst]

Kobe Bryant

inside = 9/10
midrange = 10/10
long range = 8/10
contested = 10/10
handles = 8/10
footwork = 10/10
post up = 10/10
passing = 7/10
rebounding = 8/10 ( for height )
off hand = 10/10
driving = 9/10
defense = 9/10

Overall = 9/10 skills


michael Jordan

inside = 10/10
midrange = 10/10
long range = 6/10
contested = 9/10
handles = 7/10
footwork = 10/10
post up = 10/10
passing = 7/10
rebounding = 8/10 ( for height )
off hand = 8/10
driving = 10/10
defense = 10/10

total = 8.7/10 skills

Lebron james

inside = 10/10
midrange = 5/10
long range = 8/10
contested = 7/10
handles = 6/10
footwork = 3/10
post up = 5/10
passing = 10/10
rebounding = 7/10 ( for height )
off hand = 8/10
driving = 10/10
defense = 7/10

total = 7.1/10 skills


:roll:

[GIF REACTION]

kenneth

Intelligence = 0/10

[Vaniiiia]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtvRatRkevw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv37ykpYk84
You didn't address his ether at all.

Because you have no rebuttal. If this was real life you'd be stuttering and mumbling. Posting two irrelevant youtube videos that have nothing to do with what he murdered you on is the equivalent to being a flustered stuttering retard. :oldlol:

Congrats Kenny. Just when I think you can't get any worse as a troll you do this. Don't you have any pride? I understand your only goal is to get attention. But you don't care that it's all negative attention and that everyone laughs and mocks you? Seems like an obvious NO based on your horrid track record.

[sdot_thadon]

Ummmm, kobe was considered goat? Lebron was too? I miss an era or something?:no:

Gotta shorten that list up.

Mikan
Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Dr. J
Bird
Magic
Jordan

[kennethgriffin]

You didn't address his ether at all.

Because you have no rebuttal. If this was real life you'd be stuttering and mumbling. Posting two irrelevant youtube videos that have nothing to do with what he murdered you on is the equivalent to being a flustered stuttering retard. :oldlol:

Congrats Kenny. Just when I think you can't get any worse as a troll you do this. Don't you have any pride? I understand your only goal is to get attention. But you don't care that it's all negative attention and that everyone laughs and mocks you? Seems like an obvious NO based on your horrid track record.


phil/lebrons opinion > dubetas opinion



a guy who coached both mike and kobe > dubetas opinion

a guy whos in direct competition with kobe > dubetas opinion

[kennethgriffin]

Ummmm, kobe was considered goat? Lebron was too? I miss an era or something?:no:

Gotta shorten that list up.

Mikan
Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Dr. J
Bird
Magic
Jordan


during 2006 allot of people were saying kobe was or would go down as GOAT

[Marchesk]

Ummmm, kobe was considered goat? Lebron was too? I miss an era or something?:no:

There has been some chatter to that effect. Pippen saying Lebron was better. A few people in the media agreeing or the saying the same thing after a big performance.

During the 2014 season, some were even saying Durant was as good as Jordan, but that was ISH, so it doesn't count.

[kennethgriffin]

:roll:



you disagree with my assessment?

inside = 10/10 ( lebrons great )

midrange = 5/10 ( lebron sucks )

long range = 8/10 ( lebrons as good as kobe, wide open atleast )

contested = 7/10 ( lebrons dared to shoot outside )

handles = 6/10 ( he carries/travels/charges all the time )

footwork = 3/10 ( he has some of the worst footwork i've ever seen )

post up = 5/10 ( mediocre at best )

passing = 10/10 ( great passer. up there with the best )

rebounding = 7/10 ( for a 6-9, 260 pound guy. he should average 10rpg career )

off hand = 8/10 ( ive seen him air ball left handed jumpers in practice, but hes great with layups )

driving = 10/10 ( phenomenal at driving, getting to the rim. one of the best ever )


defense = 7/10 ( great transition shot blocker. great help defender, poor on ball defender )






so.... where did i go wrong?

[Vaniiiia]

phil/lebrons opinion > dubetas opinion



a guy who coached both mike and kobe > dubetas opinion

a guy whos in direct competition with kobe > dubetas opinion
Phil didn't address dubetas point either.

The point is there are hundreds of guys who are more skilled than Kobe. Smaller guards HAVE to be the most skilled or else they don't make the NBA.

You won't address this though, or you'll just lie and deny common sense like you always do. Like I said bro, you get attention for being a cancer. It's all negative. If that's your mission then you have succeeded. But what a sad life you must live where all you care about is getting negative attention on a message board. God bless you.

[WillC]

At one time or another:

Mikan
Russell
Wilt
Oscar
Baylor
Kareem
Dr. J
Bird
Magic
Jordan
Kobe
Lebron

Not sure whether Shaq ever got that kind of love. And yes, some have said that Kobe or Lebron were the best ever at some point, just as some said that about Bird and Magic back in the day (Bird was definitely getting GOAT consideration during three-peat MVP years).

Anyone else?

Kobe and LeBron have never been considered the GOAT. I'd also take Baylor off the list.

The rest were all regarded as the GOAT, at least by a large number of journalists and fans.

[kennethgriffin]

Phil didn't address dubetas point either.

The point is there are hundreds of guys who are more skilled than Kobe. Smaller guards HAVE to be the most skilled or else they don't make the NBA.

You won't address this though, or you'll just lie and deny common sense like you always do. Like I said bro, you get attention for being a cancer. It's all negative. If that's your mission then you have succeeded. But what a sad life you must live where all you care about is getting negative attention on a message board. God bless you.


i dont read dubetas posts

:lol


he's 10 years old. if you waste your time with him then i feel sorry for you



as for the point that smaller guys are more skilled. i disagree. allot of them get by on speed. which is why when iverson lost his all time great quickness. he got shat out of the league

while kobe utilizes pump fakes, pivots, fades, timing, off balance shots and tricks to overcome his disadvantages

[WillC]

Ummmm, kobe was considered goat? Lebron was too? I miss an era or something?:no:

Gotta shorten that list up.

Mikan
Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Dr. J
Bird
Magic
Jordan

Here's someone who talks some sense.

(Although many argued Oscar was the greatest of all-time - not just during in his playing career, but for decades after, e.g. the author Peter C Bjarkman)

[Vaniiiia]

i dont read dubetas posts

:lol


he's 10 years old. if you waste your time with him then i feel sorry for you



as for the point that smaller guys are more skilled. i disagree. allot of them get by on speed. which is why when iverson lost his all time great quickness. he got shat out of the league

while kobe utilizes pump fakes, pivots, fades, timing, off balance shots and tricks to overcome his disadvantages
Wow, Kobe is the only basketball player to utilize pump fakes and pivots.

Groundbreaking stuff.

There's no way you think Kobe is more skilled than a guy like Steve Nash. I even predicted in my previous post that you would lie and make shit up. And you will continue that trend in 3...2...1...

[kennethgriffin]

Wow, Kobe is the only basketball player to utilize pump fakes and pivots.

Groundbreaking stuff.

There's no way you think Kobe is more skilled than a guy like Steve Nash. I even predicted in my previous post that you would lie and make shit up. And you will continue that trend in 3...2...1...


no

i'm just saying kobes been the best at utilizing those tricks to sustain 1st team all nba's throughout seasons 12,13,14,15,16,17


while other players 90% of the time are garbage before then

[Midnite89]

Here's someone who talks some sense.

(Although many argued Oscar was the greatest of all-time - not just during in his playing career, but for decades after, e.g. the author Peter C Bjarkman)

After Jordan raised the bar, it was a little tough eh

[bdreason]

Kobe and LeBron have never been considered GOAT candidates. I don't think Dr. J was ever a GOAT candidate either.


There were whispers for Shaq after the 3-peat, but trying to follow-up MJ's greatness has proven impossible.

[bdreason]

I'm not sure about Oscar or Baylor either. It's hard to understand the narrative of a time when you didn't live it.

[bdreason]

My list would probably be a bit shorter;

Mikan
Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Jordan

[Marchesk]

My criteria for the list was if former or current players, members of the sports media, or a significant section of the public considered a player to be the best of all time, and meant it. Of course ISH and other online forums don't count.

So I don't mean widely considered, which would narrow the list down. I don't know that Oscar or Dr J were ever widely considered the best. Most likely Baylor was not. Certainly not Shaq, Kobe or Lebron since they are post MJ.

Bird though, was, if only briefly.

[Vaniiiia]

no

i'm just saying kobes been the best at utilizing those tricks to sustain 1st team all nba's throughout seasons 12,13,14,15,16,17


while other players 90% of the time are garbage before then
Because of media biased and a huge athletic frame. Steve Nashs skill-set and bball IQ in Kobes body is GOAT.

So you admit Kobe isn't the most skilled, but just very skilled for his size. Which is cool. But that's not what most skilled means, so you lose. Sorry.

You can longer go around saying Kobe is the most skilled. I took that away from you. Make something else up. Start saying Kobe has an argument for GOAT because he has the best receding hairline or some shit.

Most skilled though? Nope, not even close. :lol

Steve Nash has an argument though. Since that was apart of your criteria for GOAT talk, Steve Nash is now in the conversation. Beating Kobe in that like he beat him in MVPs. :oldlol:

[Dr Hawk]

Question: currently, in most of the all-time lists Bird is below Magic but I have read many times that Bird was considered the better player in the 80's. Is this true?

[20Four]

Because of media biased and a huge athletic frame. Steve Nashs skill-set and bball IQ in Kobes body is GOAT.

So you admit Kobe isn't the most skilled, but just very skilled for his size. Which is cool. But that's not what most skilled means, so you lose. Sorry.

You can longer go around saying Kobe is the most skilled. I took that away from you. Make something else up. Start saying Kobe has an argument for GOAT because he has the best receding hairline or some shit.

Most skilled though? Nope, not even close. :lol

Steve Nash has an argument though. Since that was apart of your criteria for GOAT talk, Steve Nash is now in the conversation. Beating Kobe in that like he beat him in MVPs. :oldlol:
Kobe must have RAPED your team over and over for the hate you have for the man....you probably clean his toilets huh??? You hate the man so much and he doesn't even know you....you a fvcking ****** can't wait until I see you in February so I can fvkc you up....

[dubeta]

LeBron Fam got 20four on a LEASH

:yaohappy:

[Vaniiiia]

Kobe must have RAPED your team over and over for the hate you have for the man....you probably clean his toilets huh??? You hate the man so much and he doesn't even know you....you a fvcking ****** can't wait until I see you in February so I can fvkc you up....
Hahahahaha you mad, small fry?

How was shit cleaning duty today? Don't forget to wash those stubby little fingers nurse boy.

And we all know LeBron OWNS Kobe head to head... so no, that couldn't possibly be why I would hate him. You're projecting your hatred for the King and pinning it on me as if I hate Kobe. Not true! I just speak factually about a guy that is always falling short in advanced analytics. Falling short like your frame, like your mind, and like your life. Just a short kinda existence for you bro. And I'm gonna cut it even shorter when I knock your ****ing head off in February! Stay tuned midget.

:yaohappy:

[KevinNYC]

Question: currently, in most of the all-time lists Bird is below Magic but I have read many times that Bird was considered the better player in the 80's. Is this true?
Bird got there earlier. I would definitely say he was better than Magic earlier in their careers. He was little older than Magic, three years, I think when he started in the NBA..played 4 years in college, skipped a year after leaving Indiana. Magic I think did two years in college.
Magic became a better player later than Bird chronologically. (By age, they match up pretty well.) Magic's jump shot was a little unsteady when he first got to the league. (So was Michael Jordan's by the way. You could tell they both continued to work on their games.) 84-86 Bird was clearly the best player in the league.

Back to Back wins in 1987 and 1988 certainly helped Magic's case. His 1984 Finals did not help his case. Also Kareem was still a pretty dominant force in Magic's early years and the Laker's geared their offense to Kareem. Later on they tailored their offense to Magic's style....I just looked up his stats for the 1987 Finals, they're ridiculous.

Nowadays when you look at all time lists, you know the full scope of both of their careers and know that Bird after injuries wasn't the fully the same player.

[BoutPractice]

Several former players, commentators etc. have called either Kobe or LeBron "as good as anyone that's ever played" or variants, so if those are the sort of criteria we're going by, they would have to be included (even if I don't personally think they have an argument).

[Marchesk]

Several former players, commentators etc. have called either Kobe or LeBron "as good as anyone that's ever played" or variants, so if those are the sort of criteria we're going by, they would have to be included (even if I don't personally think they have an argument).

Right, but we might want to disqualify Bill Walton from that list, otherwise Boris Diaw might have to be added. :lol

[Dr Hawk]

Bird got there earlier. I would definitely say he was better than Magic earlier in their careers. He was little older than Magic, three years, I think when he started in the NBA..played 4 years in college, skipped a year after leaving Indiana. Magic I think did two years in college.
Magic became a better player later than Bird chronologically. (By age, they match up pretty well.) Magic's jump shot was a little unsteady when he first got to the league. (So was Michael Jordan's by the way. You could tell they both continued to work on their games.) 84-86 Bird was clearly the best player in the league.

Back to Back wins in 1987 and 1988 certainly helped Magic's case. His 1984 Finals did not help his case. Also Kareem was still a pretty dominant force in Magic's early years and the Laker's geared their offense to Kareem. Later on they tailored their offense to Magic's style....I just looked up his stats for the 1987 Finals, they're ridiculous.

Nowadays when you look at all time lists, you know the full scope of both of their careers and know that Bird after injuries wasn't the fully the same player.

Thanks for the answer mate :cheers: Really well explained

[bdreason]

Question: currently, in most of the all-time lists Bird is below Magic but I have read many times that Bird was considered the better player in the 80's. Is this true?


Magic had the edge in the beginning, mainly because of his success in his rookie campaign. After their rookie seasons, the narrative switched to Bird, who won 3 consecutive MVP's in the middle of the decade. By the end of the 80's, I would say the narrative switched back to Magic.


As far as overall rankings, I think the general consensus is that Bird had a higher peak, while Magic had a better overall career.

[KevinNYC]

Thanks for the answer mate :cheers: Really well explained
Thanks.

The other part is Bird joined a team that won 29 games the year before and they became a top 3 team. Magic joined a team that won 47 games and already had one of the game's greatest players ever. Kareem was MVP of the league in Magic's first year. They won the championship with Magic as a rookie point guard. (has that ever been done before?) but he was more of a missing piece of the puzzle where Bird was the like savior of a restoring its lost glory.

[ScalsFan21]

As far as overall rankings, I think the general consensus is that Bird had a higher peak, while Magic had a better overall career.

Yep. I rank Bird marginally higher in spite of his injury-induced tail-off. I see the argument for both sides, but at his best, give me Bird.

[KevinNYC]

Magic had the edge in the beginning, mainly because of his success in his rookie campaign.
Bird was rookie of the year that year and the voting wasn't close. (http://www.basketballinsiders.com/top-5-all-time-nba-rookies/)
[QUOTE]#3

[ShaqTwizzle]

Shaq got plenty of GOAT talk towards the end of the 3peat especially considering how absurd his Finals performances were which obviously left a nice taste in the minds of the fans & the media.

Most guys in the media were saying Shaq was already Top 5 All-Time by the end of the 3peat.

Then of course towards the end of the decade his popularity had declined and other guys were peaking in that respect (like Kobe & Lebron) so no one talked about him anymore or included him in their top guy lists.

Anyway Shaq is arguably the 2nd best playoff & Finals performer ever after MJ so if you don't consider him a GOAT candidate then... who do you consider?

Jordan, Kareem & Shaq are my Top 3 GOAT candidates.
Russell is hard to peg but I suppose one can argue he belongs on the Top Tier also.
Then you have Magic & Duncan.

Wilt I think gets a pass but his playoff stats+resume is not GOAT worthy.
Lebron is on the path to the top tier but he isn't there yet.

Don't think I forgot anyone.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I feel the progression went like this:

Mikan
Russell/Wilt
KAJ
Bird
Jordan

I wouldn't say that guys like Shaq, Kobe, or Lebron have ever had serious GOAT talk despite how incredible they were/are. Don't think Magic had much either. Jordan is still the bar.

[ShaqTwizzle]

I feel the progression went like this:

Mikan
Russell/Wilt
KAJ
Bird
Jordan

I wouldn't say that guys like Shaq, Kobe, or Lebron have ever had serious GOAT talk despite how incredible they were/are. Don't think Magic had much either. Jordan is still the bar.

You don't remember how big Shaq was in the early 00's.
The league basically revolved around him as did the leagues media.
Teams around the league were building their rosters on the basis of stopping Shaq.
Rules were changed as a direct result of his dominance.
The MDE label was used constantly.

Shaq was definitly the next progression and honestly Lebron might now deserve the next spot.

Mikan
Cousy
Russell/Wilt
Kareem
Bird/Magic
Jordan
Shaq
Lebron

Something like that.

[NBAplayoffs2001]

best career = MJ
best prime = 91-93 MJ
best winner = Russell
best passer = Magic
best shooter = Larry Bird
best all around = Oscar Robinson
best rebounder = Dennis Rodman
best teammate = Dennis Rodman
best defender = Russell
best dunker = Vince Carter and it's not really close
best innovator = Scottie Pippen (invented the point forward position)
most dominant = Shaq
most clutch = Jerry West
most skilled = Kobe Bryant (his offensive arsenal is probably the largest in NBA history)

[riseagainst]

best career = MJ
best prime = 91-93 MJ
best winner = Russell
best passer = Magic
best shooter = Larry Bird
best all around = Oscar Robinson
best rebounder = Dennis Rodman
best teammate = Dennis Rodman
best defender = Russell
best dunker = Vince Carter and it's not really close
best innovator = Scottie Pippen (invented the point forward position)
most dominant = Shaq
most clutch = Jerry West
most skilled = Kobe Bryant (his offensive arsenal is probably the largest in NBA history)


Curry could challenge the best shooter category. And Larry Bird could challenge the best passer category.
Lebron is probably best all around.

[HOoopCityJones]

Shaq, Kobe and Lebron all had GOAT considerations at different point in their careers. Don't let any of their stans tell you differently.

[ProfessorMurder]

Kobe and Lebron all had GOAT considerations at different point in their careers. Don't let any of their stans tell you differently.
:roll: :roll: Dreaming.

[ProfessorMurder]

best teammate = Dennis Rodman
best innovator = Scottie Pippen (invented the point forward position)
most skilled = Kobe Bryant (his offensive arsenal is probably the largest in NBA history)
:roll: