Greatest players of all time list: Insidehoops vs Real GM vs Pro Sports Daily

[SouBeachTalents]

Top 10 for each list

Inside Hoops (November 2012)
1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Duncan
10. Hakeem

LeBron was 11th

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=282470

Real GM (June 2014)
1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Wilt
5. Duncan
6. Shaq
7. LeBron
8. Magic
9. Hakeem
10. Bird

Kobe was 13th

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1328924

Pro Sports Daily (July 2014)
1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Magic
5. Shaq
6. Duncan
7. Hakeem
8. LeBron
9. Bird
10. Kobe

Russell was 11th

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?871758-PSD-s-Top-50-List-of-the-Greatest-NBA-Players-of-All-Time

[dhsilv]

Real GM's and pro sports are both pretty good.

I never know what to do with Russel. I think all lists over value shaq a bit. I just struggle with him past 8th.

Inside hoops would move lebron up logically so that's hard to hold against it and likely Duncan has moved as well. That said there's no way in 2012 kobe was over Duncan so that hurts the list a lot. Also the high ranking of kobe in generally just doesn't make any sense. He just doesn't have the numbers/stats to back up that high a spot.

Jerry West is a huge omission imo and while I don't disagree I'm shocked to not see Oscar. I'm not sure why Russel and Wilt get so much credit and West gets left off all together.

Just for fun lets add Bill Simmons list (love or hate the guy, who writes a 700 page book on basketball?).

1 Michael Jordan
2 Bill Russell
3 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4 Magic Johnson
5 Larry Bird
6 Wilt Chamberlain
7 Tim Duncan
8 Kobe Bryant
9 Jerry West
10 Oscar Robertson

I'd personally keep his top 10 with two changes. I'd replace Kobe with West and Oscar with Hakeem. Shaq at 11. I'd move people around in that group as well but as always the weighting of peak, career, and other is hard to define.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Tbh, ISH's looks the best... Who would've thought :applause:

[kennethgriffin]

Top 10 for each list

Inside Hoops (November 2012)
1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Duncan
10. Hakeem

LeBron was 11th

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=282470

Real GM (June 2014)
1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Wilt
5. Duncan
6. Shaq
7. LeBron
8. Magic
9. Hakeem
10. Bird

Kobe was 13th

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1328924

Pro Sports Daily (July 2014)
1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Magic
5. Shaq
6. Duncan
7. Hakeem
8. LeBron
9. Bird
10. Kobe

Russell was 11th

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?871758-PSD-s-Top-50-List-of-the-Greatest-NBA-Players-of-All-Time




its obvious that birds of a feather flock together

people associate with whom they can relate with


ISH is the kobe/lebron forum

realgm is the bigman/geek forum

espn/anger general was more 90s fans/kobe fans

and this prosports daily thing seems to be casual fans or one guy who posted his list



it seems the one list that is most common with inner nba circles is ISH

[kennethgriffin]

Real GM's and pro sports are both pretty good.

I never know what to do with Russel. I think all lists over value shaq a bit. I just struggle with him past 8th.

Inside hoops would move lebron up logically so that's hard to hold against it and likely Duncan has moved as well. That said there's no way in 2012 kobe was over Duncan so that hurts the list a lot. Also the high ranking of kobe in generally just doesn't make any sense. He just doesn't have the numbers/stats to back up that high a spot.

Jerry West is a huge omission imo and while I don't disagree I'm shocked to not see Oscar. I'm not sure why Russel and Wilt get so much credit and West gets left off all together.

Just for fun lets add Bill Simmons list (love or hate the guy, who writes a 700 page book on basketball?).

1 Michael Jordan
2 Bill Russell
3 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4 Magic Johnson
5 Larry Bird
6 Wilt Chamberlain
7 Tim Duncan
8 Kobe Bryant
9 Jerry West
10 Oscar Robertson

I'd personally keep his top 10 with two changes. I'd replace Kobe with West and Oscar with Hakeem. Shaq at 11. I'd move people around in that group as well but as always the weighting of peak, career, and other is hard to define.

that jerry west selection is suspect to say the least

[GIF REACTION]

The ISH one is too outdated

If it was for 2014 like the other ones

Kobe would drop while Lebron and Duncan go up

[Legends66NBA7]

Tbh, ISH's looks the best... Who would've thought :applause:

I believe you can throw more forums in there that do these lists legit and they usually all come around tto similar group of players. Basketball community has got it down to a reasonable sense when you cut out all the trolling.

[GIF REACTION]

Inside Hoops (September 2015)
1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Duncan
8. Lebron
9. Shaq
10. Kobe

[dhsilv]

that jerry west selection is suspect to say the least

thank you for not posting in weird fonts, but unless you have a reason for that, why post it?

[fiddy]

Bran over Kobe is pure disgrace

[dhsilv]

Inside Hoops (September 2015)
1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Duncan
8. Lebron
9. Shaq
10. Kobe

link?

I'd like to hear argumetns for bird over wilt, duncan behind bird and lebron behind bird actually. I think that'd be a fun read.

I'm always interested in the arguments for russel. He's such a hard guy to rank that high but clearly rings do matter. As do MVP's.

[dhsilv]

Bran over Kobe is pure disgrace

I assume a pure mathematical fact, opinion fact, fan fact, and reality is what you mean?

I mean when Lebron has a higher winshare (a stat that REALLY favors more minutes/games played) it's almost impossible to argue kobe by any objectionable measure given their career lengths.

[3ball]

Kobe's scoring versatility allows him to adjust to teammates, especially post players, so they can shine and play their best... His scoring versatility also makes his team less predictable, allows for more diverse strategy, and can overcome a wider range of defensive strategies.

[3ball]

:facepalm

[3ball]

Amazing that the other sites have Bird so low... Probably just because he's white... pathetic

[3ball]

.
Lebron is not top 15... What top 15 player has ANY of the following deal-breaking indictments on their game?


1) Lebron is poor at the additional midrange and 1-on-1 required of high volume shooting - this is statistical fact - so he can't shoot well at high volume, which means you don't need to double team him.. No other top 15 player has these horrible indictments on their game.

2) Lebron's poor of 1-on-1 and midrange efficiency also prevents him from being as good in the 80's, when these were the primary options remaining in the absence of the 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile (Lebron's most-used attack).. Without teammates spreading the floor for him and making drive-and-kick the force it is today, Lebron would have to score a much higher proportion via 1-on-1 and mid-range like everyone else in the 80's - since his efficiency in very poor in these areas, we know for a fact he would be a lesser player back then..

3) Lebron craters the APG and assist % of his teammates - this is statistical fact - lower APG for teammates means Lebron prevents the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that the Mavs, Spurs, Warriors, and 90's Bulls used, where all 5 guys share the playmaking duties - since Lebron prevents the best brand of basketball, his teams are susceptible to equal or less-talented opponents pulling upsets by playing a better of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

[dubeta]

3ball when are you going to repost the post you just deleted?



Just tell us its okay bud!


Give us a specific time

[dubeta]

.
Lebron is not top 15... What top 15 player has ANY of the following deal-breaking indictments on their game?


1) Lebron is poor at the additional midrange and 1-on-1 required of high volume shooting - this is statistical fact - so he can't shoot well at high volume, which means you don't need to double team him.. No other top 15 player has these horrible indictments on their game.

2) Lebron's poor of 1-on-1 and midrange efficiency also prevents him from being as good in the 80's, when these were the primary options remaining in the absence of the 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile (Lebron's most-used attack).. Without teammates spreading the floor for him and making drive-and-kick the force it is today, Lebron would have to score a much higher proportion via 1-on-1 and mid-range like everyone else in the 80's - since his efficiency in very poor in these areas, we know for a fact he would be a lesser player back then..

3) Lebron craters the APG and assist % of his teammates - this is statistical fact - lower APG for teammates means Lebron prevents the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that the Mavs, Spurs, Warriors, and 90's Bulls used, where all 5 guys share the playmaking duties - since Lebron prevents the best brand of basketball, his teams are susceptible to equal or less-talented opponents pulling upsets by playing a better of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).


The real reason that LeBron is not only top 15, but top 5, is because he won multiple championships with supporting casts that were WORSE that Jordans casts in 1989,1990, 1995 (years when Jordan lost with casts that were actually Better than LeBrons championship casts)

[GIF REACTION]

[I]The real reason that LeBron is not only top 15, but top 5, is because he won multiple championships with supporting casts that were WORSE that Jordans casts in 1989,1990, 1995 (years when Jordan lost with casts that were actually Better than LeBrons championship casts)
Ether!

Ether!

[Smoke117]

Besides the fact Duncan is overrated and Bird underrated...Real GM's is the closest to mine.

[ArbitraryWater]

For the one hundreth time, LeBron was 10th on ISH, russwest early closed/rigged the draw and everyone killed him for it... how does this still go over ones head?

[ArbitraryWater]

Apologies OP, but why didn't you take the 2014 top 10?

Not that it matters anyways

[3ball]

Lebron won multiple championships with supporting casts that were WORSE that Jordans casts in 1989 and 1990


Horrible troll.. Not realistic enough.. But I'll indulge.

Lebron had prime Wade and Bosh in 2012... And in 2013, he had Wade, Bosh and Allen, all HOF's, and Allen saved Lebron..

Otoh, MJ was a 1-man show in 1989 and 1990, while Pippen cost the Bulls in both 1989 and 1990 ECF... He only averaged 10/7 on 40% in 1989 ECF...

In 1990, he had historic choke in Game 7 ECF with his so-called "migraines" and mustered 2 points on 1-10 - this cost the Bulls their first championship (since the Pistons beat Blazers in 6, but needed 7 games and Pippen choke to beat Bulls).

[dubeta]

Horrible troll.. Not realistic enough.. But I'll indulge.

Lebron had prime Wade and Bosh in 2012... And in 2013, he had Wade, Bosh and Allen, all HOF's, and Allen saved Lebron..

Otoh, MJ was a 1-man show in 1989 and 1990, while Pippen cost the Bulls in both 1989 and 1990 ECF... He only averaged 10/7 on 40% in 1989 ECF...

In 1990, he had historic choke in Game 7 ECF with his so-called "migraines" and mustered 2 points on 1-10 - this cost the Bulls their first championship (since the Pistons beat Blazers in 6, but needed 7 games and Pippen choke to beat Bulls).


https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png


The Best Supporting Casts of all-time are littered with Jordans (or should I say Pippens) championship teams






If his championship level casts are 3-4 TIERS better than LeBrons casts, then it isnt a stretch to hypothesis that even MJ's NON-championship level casts, were also better

[dhsilv]

Kobe's scoring versatility allows him to adjust to teammates, especially post players, so they can shine and play their best... His scoring versatility also makes his team less predictable, allows for more diverse strategy, and can overcome a wider range of defensive strategies.

:facepalm

[Asukal]

Why is Kareem concensus number 2? The guy has similarities in career comparison to kobe yet kobe isn't even top 5.

Let's see:
- KAJ 6 rings 2 FMVP / Kobe 5 rings 2 FMVP
- KAJ 24.6ppg / Kobe 25.4ppg
- KAJ couldn't win without an elite PG
- Kobe won with at least a prime Pau
- KAJ in his prime in the 70s is far away the best player in the league yet he let nobodies beat his team in the playoffs even when they had HCA

I really don't see the argument for KAJ over Russell. Heck I think Duncan has a case over him tbh. KAJ is overrated.

:whatever:

[dhsilv]

Why is Kareem concensus number 2? The guy has similarities in career comparison to kobe yet kobe isn't even top 5.

Let's see:
- KAJ 6 rings 2 FMVP / Kobe 5 rings 2 FMVP
- KAJ 24.6ppg / Kobe 25.4ppg
- KAJ couldn't win without an elite PG
- Kobe won with at least a prime Pau
- KAJ in his prime in the 70s is far away the best player in the league yet he let nobodies beat his team in the playoffs even when they had HCA

I really don't see the argument for KAJ over Russell. Heck I think Duncan has a case over him tbh. KAJ is overrated.

:whatever:

Kareem 6 MVP's Kobe 1
Kareem not full career or peak even counted but VOPR leader 6 times career, Kobe 0. PER leader NBA 9 times, Kobe 0. WS leader 9 times Kobe zero.

Career winshare Kareem, career PER Kareem, career VORP Kareem. Total wins, kareem.

They aren't even remotely close in any way shape or form....they're so far apart I stopped after just the basic stats....

[Smoke117]

https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png


The Best Supporting Casts of all-time are littered with Jordans (or should I say Pippens) championship teams






If his championship level casts are 3-4 TIERS better than LeBrons casts, then it isnt a stretch to hypothesis that even MJ's NON-championship level casts, were also better

Of course 3ball has no response for this...

[Asukal]

Kareem 6 MVP's Kobe 1
Kareem not full career or peak even counted but VOPR leader 6 times career, Kobe 0. PER leader NBA 9 times, Kobe 0. WS leader 9 times Kobe zero.

Career winshare Kareem, career PER Kareem, career VORP Kareem. Total wins, kareem.

They aren't even remotely close in any way shape or form....they're so far apart I stopped after just the basic stats....

LOL at using advanced stats. :oldlol:

Kareem in his prime played in the 70's where he had no competition for best player and still found a way to somehow lose against weaker teams. :oldlol:

[90sgoat]

Lebron is not top 10. Kobe is also not top 10 or just borderline.

MJ
Kareem
Bird
Magic
Russel
Shaq
Duncan
Wilt
Hakeem
Kobe

[knicksman]

bran is the only top 10 that cant attract double teams. Embarrassing to be a fan of his. So ISH is the best top 10

[ShaqTwizzle]

1. Jordan (The GOAT)
2. Kareem (co-GOAT C) (best longevity + amazing Peak)
3. Shaq (co-GOAT C) (best Peak + amazing longevity)

4. Russell (gotta put him somewhere)
5. Magic (offensive GOAT)
6. Duncan (very good offense, great defense, great longevity)
7. Hakeem (scores like Kobe, blocks shots like Russell)

8. Lebron (3rd highest PER ever)
9. Bird (skill/unselfishness/bbiq/leadership)

10. Wilt (regular-season master. first giant of the second age)

[SyRyanYang]

As a Kobe hater, it's a disgrace to have him below Lebron.

[dhsilv]

LOL at using advanced stats. :oldlol:

Kareem in his prime played in the 70's where he had no competition for best player and still found a way to somehow lose against weaker teams. :oldlol:

So you have an opinion you don't even support with facts and that trumps the basic stats we have to judge players today?

[Dr Hawk]

Do people really think Russell was a better player than Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Hakeem....?

Russell would be easily the most hurt all-time great had he not win any ring while maintaining his level of play.

[Asukal]

So you have an opinion you don't even support with facts and that trumps the basic stats we have to judge players today?

What is not fact? That KAJ kept on losing even with HCA until Magic came? That's not my opinion, it happened. :roll: :lol :oldlol:

[sdot_thadon]

What is not fact? That KAJ kept on losing even with HCA until Magic came? That's not my opinion, it happened. :roll: :lol :oldlol:
Just like Mj never got out of the 1st rd till scottie and Phil came along, Shaq never won without an elite guard, Lebron never won till Miami, kobe never won without an elite big, etc. I don't see it as a major talking point.

[Dr Hawk]

No matter how good you are, you need a good team to win a chip

There are really few exceptions to this

[Asukal]

Just like Mj never got out of the 1st rd till scottie and Phil came along, Shaq never won without an elite guard, Lebron never won till Miami, kobe never won without an elite big, etc. I don't see it as a major talking point.

Except when MJ was losing in the first round, the league was dominated by great teams. KAJ lost to teams he should've beat. Are you are going to tell me the best teams of the 70's are equal or better than the great 80's teams? :rolleyes:1

EDIT: Let me add the fact that KAJ only won 2 FMVP's in his 6 titles. I really don't see any argument for him over Russell.

[HOoopCityJones]

It's crazy how much RealGM disrespects Kobe.

Would've love to see that place around the 2peat.

[KG215]

it seems the one list that is most common with inner nba circles is ISH
Inner NBA circles? Are there people out there talking about ISH's 2012 Top 10 list that I don't know about?

Or might it just be because this is the list you most agree with so you want to claim ti's the best? Not to mention it's the most outdated whereas the other two were done after LeBron had won two rings instead of just one. Throw that in on top of ISH being an insane asylum run by the inmates, and there's absolutely not question that out of those three top 10s, ISH's is the most unreliable.

[sdot_thadon]

Except when MJ was losing in the first round, the league was dominated by great teams. KAJ lost to teams he should've beat. Are you are going to tell me the best teams of the 70's are equal or better than the great 80's teams? :rolleyes:1

EDIT: Let me add the fact that KAJ only won 2 FMVP's in his 6 titles. I really don't see any argument for him over Russell.
Excuses, excuses, excuses. Write him up another pass folks. Quit getting your panties in a bunch, point was every great didn't win without help. Without exception. So if you want to hold that against kareem, hold it against Mj too. You weren't even born to say what teams he should have beaten or not dude. Every criticism you can think up has happened to the top 10 list. Some guys multiple criticisms, nobody's perfect.

[Asukal]

Excuses, excuses, excuses. Write him up another pass folks. Quit getting your panties in a bunch, point was every great didn't win without help. Without exception. So if you want to hold that against kareem, hold it against Mj too. You weren't even born to say what teams he should have beaten or not dude. Every criticism you can think up has happened to the top 10 list. Some guys multiple criticisms, nobody's perfect.

Every criticism? :rolleyes:

Like say MJ won only 2 FMVP's out of his 6 titles? Oh wait... :rolleyes:

How bout you tell me how many FMVP's should Russ get out of his 11 titles? I'm sure it isn't only 2 out of 11 possible ones. :rolleyes:

This isn't even about MJ, he is consensus number 1. I don't need to defend him at all. :whatever:

Now go ahead and tell me why KAJ should be consensus #2 because I'm not seeing it. I really believe Russell deserves it, he has a case for number 1 tbh. The only thing that drags him down is scoring but that's not really his role in his team. :whatever:

[dubeta]

Every criticism? :rolleyes:

Like say MJ won only 2 FMVP's out of his 6 titles? Oh wait... :rolleyes:

How bout you tell me how many FMVP's should Russ get out of his 11 titles? I'm sure it isn't only 2 out of 11 possible ones. :rolleyes:

This isn't even about MJ, he is consensus number 1. I don't need to defend him at all. :whatever:

Now go ahead and tell me why KAJ should be consensus #2 because I'm not seeing it. I really believe Russell deserves it, he has a case for number 1 tbh. The only thing that drags him down is scoring but that's not really his role in his team. :whatever:


Fine, neither KAJ and Kobe should be top 10


Happy?



Winning less than 50% of FMVPs is disgraceful

[Asukal]

Fine, neither KAJ and Kobe should be top 10


Happy?



Winning less than 50% of FMVPs is disgraceful

When you think about it, it really is. We are discussing the greatest players of all time. How can someone who got outplayed many times in his championship series runs be considered consensus #2? I think only Russell has a case to be number 2. :confusedshrug:

[Angel Face]

ISH list seems to be the most accurate.

[Megabox!]

ISH list seems to be the most accurate.
Yea nearly 4 years ago...

[Mr. Jabbar]

these are all joke lists. kobe is top 5 and i fkn hate him