Why do we always prefer "easy" solutions to difficult problems?

[Akrazotile]

The shooting at Oregon, like all mass-shootings, and all homicide in general really, is severely tragic. It genuinely hurts my heart to think about the lives that were lost, and the lives that will be forever affected by those losses. And it causes me to meditate a bit on what's going on and how it can be truly addressed.

But the problem is that whenever something like this occurs, the most knee-jerk, and vocally supported solution is always the simplest, and most short-sighted one: "Take away their guns!"

Which is very similar to most peoples 'solution' to poverty: "Just give them more money!"

Unfortunately, these solutions don't address the causes of the problems. If they did, we'd have eradicated both by now. Gun laws are stronger than 50 years ago, yet mass shootings are more frequent. Welfare spending is way up, yet poverty is still just as prominent.

[Akrazotile]

Welfare spending has skyrockted in the last 50 years. It's up 16-fold from 1964. Yet we seem to hear in perpetuity about Americans "struggling to get by." How much is enough? We spend 16 times more on welfare than we did 50 years ago. But people are still poor. Do we need to provide every unemployed person with 100k a year? Will that solve the problems of unqualified, poorly developed Americans? Imagine what many of these struggling welfare recipients would do with 100k a year. Probably the same thing as most lottery winners. Meth and debt. "Give them more money!" isn't the answer. Democrats, I am sorry.


The root of poverty in America is a lack of education (not 'formal' education, but simply how to maneuver successfully through life, which is something ideally learned from responsible parents). And also, initiative. Most poor folks don't communicate ideas with each other, think about how to improve their lots together, use the leverage of their numbers, etc. Many of them are simply culturally very, very different from what we know to be 'normal' in our predominantly middle-class ISH community. This lack of know-how is not resolved by simply "giving em more money!" Most lottery winners go broke, most athletes go broke, and there are clear psychological reasons for this... but welfare handouts are the miracle cure?

[Akrazotile]

In regards to mass violence; The isolation of young people, the insecurity, the disillusionment... Violent outbursts that manifest as a result of these factors will not be quelled simply by "take guns away!!!" These same folks, without access to guns, could simply build bombs; use knives; crash their cars into crowds; go to parties and put cyanide in the punch bowl etc. The rise of commercialism and the visibility and emphasis of 'status' and corresponding decline in religion has negatively affected many young people's self worth. If only the people who spend hours on the internet showing off how they figured out the earth wasn't literally created in 7 days and how they cant believe you havent listened to immortal technique, would actually go out and spend some of that time engaging people who could use some guidance, we might be able to prevent some of these tragedies.

But that brings us to the problem.

The real causes of these ills are social and cultural, and the solutions the left proposes are simply about passing the buck. "Yeah, make the rich pay more to welfare, I got video games to play here."

"Yeah, just have the government take away guns, I'm gonna go watch the VMA's for three hours. "

These are lazily conceived and applied band-aids to much deeper issues. If WE want to solve problems, if WE want to stop violence, and poverty, then WE need to look at the problems. WE have to stare them in the eye. Not simply call on Big Babysitter Government to regulate them away. Becuase that won't happen.

We have a melting pot of cultures in America. And it's not simply divided along racial lines, it's divided along regional lines, and ideological lines and even ancestral lines. The successful people in America typically have the kind of social values of work, community, education etc. that many of these small, prosperous nations in Europe liberals envy so badly have throughout their population. But MANY people in America are simply on a different plane. And we need to figure out how to reconcile cultural differences, and the right to be culturally different, with our desire to see everyone move in a better social and economic direction. Becuase the answer isnt simply "give out more money and take away guns!" It'd be great if that could fix everything.... but yeah. It can't.

[lil jahlil]

The shooting at Oregon, like all mass-shootings, and all homicide in general really, is severely tragic. It genuinely hurts my heart to think about the lives that were lost, and the lives that will be forever affected by those losses. And it causes me to meditate a bit on what's going on and how it can be truly addressed.

But the problem is that whenever something like this occurs, the most knee-jerk, and vocally supported solution is always the simplest, and most short-sighted one: "Take away their guns!"

Which is very similar to most peoples 'solution' to poverty: "Just give them more money!"

Unfortunately, these solutions don't address the causes of the problems. If they did, we'd have eradicated both by now. Gun laws are stronger than 50 years ago, yet mass shootings are more frequent. Welfare spending is way up, yet poverty is still just as prominent.

Actually, taking away guns is not an "easy" solution. Doing nothing is easier.

[Akrazotile]

Actually, taking away guns is not an "easy" solution. Doing nothing is easier.


Obviously it's all relative.

Comparatively, taking away guns is much easier than taking a genuine and honest look at the factors that contribute to the current rates of depression in this country. Ramping up gun laws is simple and reactionary, it doesn't involve difficult analysis and uncomfortable conversation.

[GimmeThat]

"the way forward" or as some would call it "the progressive route"

to believe that in order to pertain growth, we must rid ourselves the bad

and without defining what is 'good' or 'bad'
but in response to the title as to "why do we always prefer easy solutions to difficult problems"

it comes down to options

if you were to take away something that is guaranteed today, what's left for others to interchange it with.

and if you were to go through all options in which you attempt to offer, yet it returns back to what is guaranteed is best;


and while those in the government, particularly the senate, believes that one of the main function of the government is to lay the path for the future.

it comes down to who offers the least pain to the whole, regardless of individuals

all while keeping the working labor force steady.


I tend to be the guy that others say
"well, yea I really like you, but I think you just put me out of a job"

and this all doesn't matter, if you don't believe that there's always someone out there smarter than you

[GIF REACTION]

I don't know but the hardest way is always the best way with most things in life

Taking shortcuts creates an unstable/underdeveloped base for all things learned

[iamgine]

Yes, rather than actually doing something about it, we prefer writing things up on ISH.

[ace23]

Because easy > hard

[BoutPractice]

Unfortunately, these solutions don't address the causes of the problems. If they did, we'd have eradicated both by now. Gun laws are stronger than 50 years ago, yet mass shootings are more frequent. Welfare spending is way up, yet poverty is still just as prominent.

Relative observations like "stronger" don't mean much in politics. For example, if Saudi Arabia became "more moderate" it would still be a repressive theocracy... and if Sweden became "less tolerant" it would still be a fundamentally tolerant society. An alcoholic won't get better by having one less drink per day, etc. You always have to look at where you're starting from, to get a sense of scale and proportion. You also have to look at what kind of regulation you're talking about, how effective they are etc.

Gun protection laws in the US are still much weaker than in virtually any civilized country... gun violence meanwhile is much more frequent, to the extent that most Europeans can't even process what it would be like to live in a society where mass shootings are so routine.

Is the lack of gun laws the only cause of the demonstrable fact that gun violence is a bigger issue in America than elsewhere in the developed world? No. Some aspects of American society (among many other things, the contrast between the utopian promise of the American dream and the experience of everyday reality, and the obsession with celebrity) make the problem worse. But is it an important enough factor that drastic action on guns would dramatically decrease gun violence, bringing it closer to the level most would expect to find in a civilized country? Certainly.

[west_tip]

There's nothing easy about taking on the powerful gun lobby but making it harder to obtain firearms is a no brainer.

Every country on earth is populated by some people who have mental health problems however in those nations it's not easy for these people to obtain firearms and go on a rampage.

[DonDadda59]

Taking away people's guns is easily the hardest solution while throwing money at problems is often times the easiest. Not really the same.

[NumberSix]

Taking away people's guns is easily the hardest solution while throwing money at problems is often times the easiest. Not really the same.
The easy thing to do is suggesting a "solution" that is illegal and pretending that if it was legal it would work.

The reality is that there is no solution. Some people are just bad people and bad people will always exist. It would be nice if there was no such thing as people who want to hurt other people. That would be fantastic, but that is just not reality.

[longtime lurker]

Yeah more posts from the college dropout. As people have said the easy solution is to shrug shoulders and say shit happens. It's not like you can't address mental health issues and restrict access to guns or make it more difficult to get one.

[Akrazotile]

There's nothing easy about taking on the powerful gun lobby but making it harder to obtain firearms is a no brainer.

Every country on earth is populated by some people who have mental health problems however in those nations it's not easy for these people to obtain firearms and go on a rampage.

But what I mean is, it is easy to just ignore the causes of these problems and simply rely on a law to try and curtail their consequences. It is much more difficult to try and pinpoint what is making so many young people feel compelled to do these things, and working as a soceiety to evaluate our culture to try and make things better.

In fact you can look at the way urban vs suburban violence differs to see that these things happen due to CULTURAL factors, and arent simply inevitable due to the presence of guns. If gun availability just inevitably caused mass shootings, inner city communities would have these "school shooter" problems but they dont. If gun availability inevitably caused macho, "heat of the moment" shootings, you would see the millions of suburban gun owners shooting each other over verbal arguments, but you dont.

It is obvious that there are cultural shortcomings in each scenario that increase the likelyhood of people choosing such severe ways to address their problems.

[Akrazotile]

Yeah more posts from the college dropout.

This is supposed to be insulting?? :roll:



It's not like you can't address mental health issues and restrict access to guns or make it more difficult to get one.

Can you name some things that have ever been hard to get simply due to being illegal?

[DonDadda59]

Can you name some things that have ever been hard to get simply due to being illegal?

Guns in developed countries that outlaw guns? :confusedshrug:

[Akrazotile]

Guns in developed countries that outlaw guns? :confusedshrug:


Maybe islands like Australia and Japan where they are isolated from easy import and there isnt enough demand on them in the domestic black market for many to bother to produce them. Countries like China still allow gun permits for hunting - something it would be easy for a suburban American with money and a clean criminal record to get if that was one of his few options.


As noted by others in another thread, obtaining a gun is not difficult in many european countries with small gun violence rates. If criminalizing guns were so effective, why do so many in America possess them illegally?

Meth is illegal, it doesnt stop anyone in the US from using. Using foreign countries as evidence is meaningless bc the cultural demand for guns is different in a lot of these small, homogenous places.

America is a vast land with lots of cultures. Do we really wanna rely on the federal govt to fight the "War on Guns?" And that's gonna curtail gun access in America? Because the War on Drugs and the War on Poverty and the War on Terror are all going so well, aye?

Here we go again I guess.

Come on, govt! Do the dirty work for us. Bring on the "War on Guns!"

Cant wait for the next heated talking point debate during the upcoming presidentual election.

[Akrazotile]

The thing is, too, like a lot of liberal short-term solutions, I would personally be more amenable to some of these policies if I knew we were also gonna look at more serious ways to change the mindset and improve the values in America. But the left looks at gun control like it looks at minimum wage: They think just passing a law is good enough and as soon as you do that they shut up for a while until the problem inevitably springs back up, since the law on its own was never enough to address the issue.

When we can take a serious look at improving the quality of our citizenry, then we can talk about supplemental legislation to safeguard those efforts. But the left always is putting the cart before the horse, the bandaid before the disinfectant, the ideology before the pragmatism.

[DonDadda59]

Maybe islands like Australia and Japan where they are isolated from easy import and there isnt enough demand on them in the domestic black market for many to bother to produce them. Countries like China still allow gun permits for hunting - something it would be easy for a suburban American with money and a clean criminal record to get if that was one of his few options.

This paragraph makes no sense. In one breath you say Japan and Australia are isolated from easy import then in the next you talk about some nameless Suburban American importing guns from China? :wtf:



As noted by others in another thread, obtaining a gun is not difficult in many european countries with small gun violence rates. If criminalizing guns were so effective, why do so many in America possess them illegally?

Same reason so many illegal guns are in Mexico- they are legally purchased in bulk in States with lax gun laws (ie, the 'border states' like Texas, Nevada) and moved to States/Cities with more stringent laws.


Meth is illegal, it doesnt stop anyone in the US from using.

You can make meth in your garage or basement. You need a factory to manufacture an AR-15 and/or the ammunition for it. If that factory doesn't exist... you really think people will be making bootleg AR-15s like some bathtub mint julep? :oldlol:

[Nanners]

As noted by others in another thread, obtaining a gun is not difficult in many european countries with small gun violence rates. If criminalizing guns were so effective, why do so many in America possess them illegally?


Obtaining an illegal gun in most European countries is infinitely more difficulty than obtaining a legal one in the US.

You can buy an AR-15 rifle in the US for about $1000 at walmart, but the same rifle purchased on the European or Japanese black market will run you around $50k, and unless you actually know some black market underground gun dealer you are shit out of luck because they arent selling them on street corners.

Unless you have a ton of money and the right connections, it is quite difficult to obtain a gun in most countries that have banned them. Most american shooters like the sandyhook kid or the batman guy would just not have any access to guns in european countries because they have no money and are completely isolated from the criminal underworld.

[Akrazotile]

This paragraph makes no sense. In one breath you say Japan and Australia are isolated from easy import then in the next you talk about some nameless Suburban American importing guns from China? :wtf:

:wtf:


I pointed to China as a country similar to the US with vast regions, gun permits for hunting but with low gun violence rates. Even if we adopted Chinese-style gun laws it would be easy for many to simply get a hunting permit and obtain weapons. I dont know where the inference about importing guns from China came from.





You can make meth in your garage or basement. You need a factory to manufacture an AR-15 and/or the ammunition for it. If that factory doesn't exist... you really think people will be making bootleg AR-15s like some bathtub mint julep? :oldlol:


:oldlol:

http://m.motherjones.com/politics/2015/05/homemade-untraceable-assault-weapons

[Akrazotile]

Obtaining an illegal gun in most European countries is infinitely more difficulty than obtaining a legal one in the US.

You can buy an AR-15 rifle in the US for about $1000 at walmart, but the same rifle purchased on the European or Japanese black market will run you around $50k, and unless you actually know some black market underground gun dealer you are shit out of luck because they arent selling them on street corners.

So unless you have a ton of money and the right connections, it is quite difficult to obtain a gun in most countries that have banned them.


Yeah but plenty of people over there own them legally and you still dont see these issues in those countries.

Heck the Oregon shooter had been in the military himself. Even with stronger civilian gun laws he would have had his chance to get a weapon and unleash his crazy. There have been other military personnel whove gone on shooting sprees.

Again, I wouldnt be against some degree of this stuff if it were being used supplementally to more general efforts of cultural improvement. But simply criminalizing guns isnt going to improve the quality of these troubled peoples live, and in my opinion it wont significantly hinder them from doing harms to others.

We dont have the same culture as a lot of countries in Europe and Japan. That's the CAUSE of these issues. We have tons of places in this country with values that have become completely warped, and education levels that are abominable. Everyone is afraid to discuss and tacjle these issues tho bc its not PC and it might hurt feelings. The War on Guns is just another band-aid veneer for problems people refuse to thoroughly discuss and address.

[DonDadda59]

:wtf:


I pointed to China as a country similar to the US with vast regions, gun permits for hunting and low gun violence rates. Even if we adopted Chinese-style gun laws it would be easy for many to simply get a hunting permit and obtain weapons. I dont know where the inference about importing guns from China came from.

China's gun laws are FAR more stringent than the U.S. Gun ownership by private citizens is virtually nonexistent and they have over 4 times the population of the U.S.



:oldlol:

http://m.motherjones.com/politics/2015/05/homemade-untraceable-assault-weapons

:coleman:

So a few people are LEGALLY ordering factory manufactured gun parts online and simply putting them together themselves? That's not really the same thing as cooking up meth from scratch. Do they make bullets themselves too? :confusedshrug:

[lil jahlil]

This is supposed to be insulting?? :roll:




If you don't know that is supposed to be insulting, you are dumber than I thought.

[Akrazotile]

China's gun laws are FAR more stringent than the U.S. Gun ownership by private citizens is virtually nonexistent and they have over 4 times the population of the U.S.

But my point is a lot of that is about culture. People are surely not TRYING to obtain guns illegally the way people would in the US, so we dont know how much is attributed to the laws and how much is simply lack of demand.




So a few people are ordering factory manufactured gun parts online and simply putting them together themselves? That's not really the same thing as cooking up meth from scratch. Do they make bullets themselves too? :confusedshrug:


The Santa Monica shooting in June 2013 is a high-profile example of homemade guns used in violent crime. After killing his father and brother, burning down his house, and then stealing a car, John Zawahri went on to kill three others before being shot himself. Two years before his rampage, he'd been unable to purchase a firearm because of a failed background check, so he went online and bought the components to make the AR-15-style rifle he used in his spree.

We'd better start assigning a federal agent for each page on the internet. We cannot afford to lose the War on Guns.

[Akrazotile]

If you don't know that is supposed to be insulting, you are dumber than I thought.


:oldlol:

CRINGEY bro

[DonDadda59]

But my point is a lot of that is about culture. People are surely not TRYING to obtain guns illegally the way people would in the US, so we dont know how much is attributed to the laws and how much is simply lack of demand.

Complete cop out. How do you know they are 'surely not TRYING' to obtain guns illegally? :confusedshrug:

You don't think Chinese criminals, crazy anti government McVeigh style militiamen, etc want to get their hands on AR-15s that Americans can buy at Wal-Mart?

They just can't because there is no availability.




The Santa Monica shooting in June 2013 is a high-profile example of homemade guns used in violent crime. After killing his father and brother, burning down his house, and then stealing a car, John Zawahri went on to kill three others before being shot himself. Two years before his rampage, he'd been unable to purchase a firearm because of a failed background check, so he went online and bought the components to make the AR-15-style rifle he used in his spree.

We'd better start assigning a federal agent for each page on the internet. We cannot afford to lose the War on Guns.

Again, those gun parts are being bought LEGALLY.

It's literally no different than ordering the pieces for a factory-manufactured baby's crib from IKEA online and then putting it together at home.

Literally no difference.

[Akrazotile]

Complete cop out. How do you know they are 'surely not TRYING' to obtain guns illegally? :confusedshrug:

You don't think Chinese criminals, crazy anti government McVeigh style militiamen, etc want to get their hands on AR-15s that Americans can buy at Wal-Mart?

They just can't because there is no availability.

These people alone are not enough to create a serious black market. Which, as Nanners pointed out, drives the price of these things way up, and most Chinese are poor compared to the US; Gun ownership is not cultural there like it is in the US. Here there would be huge demand for guns both in the country and the inner city. Because country culture has a huge affinity for them and so does inner city culture. If there is a demand, there will be a supply.

Would super strict gun laws decrease the NUMBER of guns? Yeah, probably. But the issue is whether it will prevent loonies from obtaining the ones that are in circulation. And IMO there would certainly be enough available on the black market for these things to continue happening.

[DonDadda59]

These people alone are not enough to create a serious black market. Which, as Nanners pointed out, drives the price of these things way up, and most Chinese are poor compared to the US; Gun ownership is not cultural there like it is in the US. Here there would be huge demand for guns both in the country and the inner city. Because country culture has a huge affinity for them and so does inner city culture.

You don't think guns in China were rampant during the social upheavals of Chiang Kai-Shek and Mao ZeDong's revolutions? I'm sure there was a serious 'gun culture' back then in China.

America has a 'gun culture' now in the same way the South once had a 'Slave culture'.


Would super strict gun laws decrease the NUMBER of guns? Yeah, probably. But the issue is whether it will prevent loonies from obtaining the ones that are in circulation. And IMO there would certainly be enough available on the black market for these things to continue happening.

Yeah, with the sheer number of guns out there in this country any changes that we make now probably wouldn't bare fruit for years, maybe even a couple of decades. But a sincere effort to curb production, ownership, etc would definitely make a massive difference as it has worldwide.

[Akrazotile]

You don't think guns in China were rampant during the social upheavals of Chiang Kai-Shek and Mao ZeDong's revolutions? I'm sure there was a serious 'gun culture' back then in China.

America has a 'gun culture' now in the same way the South once had a 'Slave culture'.


That is a pretty false equivalency IMO. At the absolute height of the American slave trade only 6% of Americans in the South had slaves - which pales in comparison to the nearly 35% of Americans today who live in a home with at least one firearm.

Abolishing slavery in the US was never going to create a significant black market for it, simply due to demand (setting aside logistics and ethics) if only 6% of people had them in the first place.

35% is a different story. And I guarantee much greater than the percent of ordinary citizens in China during any Maoist periods. And that American number actually down already from the 60s when it was nearly half of all Americans. The culture will continue to change naturally with time, and IMO our efforts would be better spent proactively directing that culture in a positive direction, rather than just relying on the federal govt to do a War on Guns.

[ThePhantomCreep]

Yeah but plenty of people over there own them legally and you still dont see these issues in those countries.

Heck the Oregon shooter had been in the military himself. Even with stronger civilian gun laws he would have had his chance to get a weapon and unleash his crazy. There have been other military personnel whove gone on shooting sprees.

Again, I wouldnt be against some degree of this stuff if it were being used supplementally to more general efforts of cultural improvement. But simply criminalizing guns isnt going to improve the quality of these troubled peoples live, and in my opinion it wont significantly hinder them from doing harms to others.

We dont have the same culture as a lot of countries in Europe and Japan. That's the CAUSE of these issues. We have tons of places in this country with values that have become completely warped, and education levels that are abominable. Everyone is afraid to discuss and tacjle these issues tho bc its not PC and it might hurt feelings. The War on Guns is just another band-aid veneer for problems people refuse to thoroughly discuss and address .

Just as I suspected, the "national conversation" you're pining for amounts to little more than scapegoating the poor and/or minorities.

No solutions, only finger-pointing. The conservative way.

[NumberSix]

Just as I suspected, the "national conversation" you're pining for amounts to little more than scapegoating the poor and/or minorities.

No solutions, only finger-pointing. The conservative way.
:wtf:

That's exactly what YOU did. You said that South American countries have more murder because the people are poorer. You both agree that poor people murder more.

[ThePhantomCreep]

:wtf:

That's exactly what YOU did. You said that South American countries have more murder because the people are poorer. You both agree that poor people murder more.

:wtf: right back at you.

Who is denying that gun homicides in this country are at their highest in poor, inner-city neighborhoods?

The question is "What are we going to do about it?" For conservatives the answer is "point fingers".

[Akrazotile]

Just as I suspected, the "national conversation" you're pining for amounts to little more than scapegoating the poor and/or minorities.

No solutions, only finger-pointing. The conservative way.


:facepalm

My God, youre insufferable. At least the other fringe leftists on this board sound like adults, even if their positions are naive and illogical.

You are like a five year old child perpetually stomping his feet and repeating his demand for somthing a commercial told him to buy. Youre an angsty, race-card robot. You have cried wolf about bigotry more than every other liberal on this board combined :biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

You are a MACHINE. It's incredible. And tbh I think even most of the other libs here think youre a nut even if they wont say it. You have no credibility with the intelligent people here with all your sheep-bleeting about kochbots and bigotry. You also sound like you have absolutely no life experience.