Kawhi Leonard and Andre Iguodala are not defensive legends. Lebrons just getting Old

[kennethgriffin]

we've all noticed the slower first step.

we've all noticed the lack of explosiveness

we've all noticed he settles for mid range jumpers and fades more than ever

we've all noticed he cant overpower small forwards as much as he used to

we've all noticed a change in stamina

we've all noticed him check himself out of games

we've all noticed him cramp out

we've all noticed him make average players look phenomenal

we've all noticed his reaction time decrease and get stripped more often

we've all noticed his reluctance to absorb contact

we've all noticed he settles way too often

we've all noticed him skipping back to backs and coasting

we've all noticed him losing ground to other stars when he used to be heads and shoulders above the rest. now anthony davis, james harden, steph curry, russell westbrook and maybe a healthy kevin durant all have a real case as leagues best player on any given night


put prime kobe or jordan or even lebron in todays nba and theyed all be heads and shoulders above those other dudes




its not kawhi. its not andre... its lebron


sure every once and a while lebron can put everything he has into a dunk and look like the old lebron

but...




http://www.hiphopstan.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Kobe-Bryant-180-Degree-Slam-Dunk-Matt-Barnes.jpg


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CQKxI8IUwAAg_Xa.jpg

[dubeta]

So LeBron averaging 32 points 11 rebounds and 7 assists on 47% combined against both of them means he's old? :lol :roll:



Thats far better than any Finals Kobe ever had



lol

rekt

[SouBeachTalents]

Kawhi won DPOY at 23 years old, dude definitely has potential to become a defensive legend

[kennethgriffin]

So LeBron averaging 32 points 11 rebounds and 7 assists on 47% combined against both of them means he's old? :lol :roll:



Thats far better than any Finals Kobe ever had



lol

rekt


he didnt though

[ShawkFactory]

I believe you called Kawhi a HOFer when comparing Duncan and Kobes great teammates.

If it's not for defense what is it for?

DPOY. Best in the game right now.

[kennethgriffin]

Kawhi won DPOY at 23 years old, dude definitely has potential to become a defensive legend

lebron made him dpoty

he gave him that hype

lebron also made him a finals mvp at 22

[kennethgriffin]

I believe you called Kawhi a HOFer when comparing Duncan and Kobes great teammates.

If it's not for defense what is it for?

DPOY. Best in the game right now.


and kawhi owes it all to lebron


hes not that special. hes a role player with great defensive skills. but i doubt hes as good as lebron made him look


hes a really good defender. maybe even an all nba defender... but because of lebron we look at kawhi as an all time great

[GIF REACTION]

So LeBron averaging 32 points 11 rebounds and 7 assists on 47% combined against both of them means he's old? :lol :roll:



Thats far better than any Finals Kobe ever had



lol

rekt
Dubes got em with the FOOZ,

[ShawkFactory]

and kawhi owes it all to lebron


hes not that special. hes a role player with great defensive skills. but i doubt hes as good as lebron made him look


hes a really good defender. maybe even an all nba defender... but because of lebron we look at kawhi as an all time great
LOL until we start arguing Kobe vs Duncan. Then Kawhi is actually the shit.

[kennethgriffin]

So LeBron averaging 32 points 11 rebounds and 7 assists on 47% combined against both of them means he's old? :lol :roll:



Thats far better than any Finals Kobe ever had



lol

rekt


http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/91407/kawhi-leonard-wreaking-havoc-on-lebron

^^^

kawhi basically kept lebron from even being able to attempt shots. which is why it didnt reflect fully in the box score




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR7oP6NmfHQ


^^^

as for iggy... lebron just settles for fading mid range jumpers all series. shooting 35% vs andre and 27% beyond 5 feet





posting overall stats ( which arent even accurate ) vs all defenders = lol

[kennethgriffin]

LOL until we start arguing Kobe vs Duncan. Then Kawhi is actually the shit.


kawhi is a great teammate. he could possibly be a HOF'r someday. hes a top 15 player in the nba



but this is basically pau gasols level of greatness



i'm saying lebron made kawhi look like THE BEST player in the nba

[kennethgriffin]

https://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/lebronkawhi.gif

[kennethgriffin]

Dubes got em with the FOOZ,


i got em.. look up

[Papaya Petee]

36/13/9 and
28/8/5

Are him getting old....

Ok ******

[dubeta]

https://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/lebronkawhi.gif

LeBron won FMVP that series

[kennethgriffin]

LeBron won FMVP that series


which shows hes declining if he lost to the very same team and guy defending him a year later


2013 was lebrons last prime season.

[dubeta]

which shows hes declining if he lost to the very same team and guy defending him a year later


2013 was lebrons last prime season.


What does it say that LeBron loses series averaging 32, 11, 7 on 47%, while Kobe wins series averaging 24 points on 41%

:lol

[kennethgriffin]

What does it say that LeBron loses series averaging 32, 11, 7 on 47%, while Kobe wins series averaging 24 points on 41%

:lol

it says youre making things up

[Hey Yo]

36/13/9 and
28/8/5

Are him getting old....

Ok ******
shooting 57% from the field and 52% from 3pt land

[20Four]

What does it say that LeBron loses series averaging 32, 11, 7 on 47%, while Kobe wins series averaging 24 points on 41%

:lol
fakkit mother fvcker

[kennethgriffin]

shooting 57% from the field and 52% from 3pt land


overall numbers dont tell the whole story.




http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/91407/kawhi-leonard-wreaking-havoc-on-lebron





Kawhi Leonard has been the primary defender against LeBron James in the NBA Finals.On the surface, it appears that LeBron James has not struggled against Kawhi Leonard. Video tracking shows that James shot 12-of-18 (66.7 percent) with Leonard as his primary defender in the first three games of the 2014 NBA Finals.

But those numbers don’t show the full impact of Leonard’s defense.

In Game 3, James had a series-high 73 offensive touches but attempted only 14 shots. James was guarded by Leonard on 65 percent of the Heat’s possessions with James on the court in Game 3, the most Leonard has defended James in any game this series.

Let’s take a look at how Leonard has made LeBron’s life more difficult in the NBA Finals.

Fewer shots

Only 17 percent of LeBron’s touches against Leonard in the Finals have resulted in a field goal attempt. That’s half the rate James has against all other defenders. That means Leonard has been successful forcing him to pass the ball or turn it over.

Fewer touches

Leonard has been successful keeping the ball out of LeBron’s hands. James has been held without a touch on 35 percent of the Heat’s possessions when he’s guarded by Leonard. Against all other defenders he’s held without a touch 25 percent of the time.

Fewer drives

James has driven to the basket on 13 percent of his touches against Leonard. That rate jumps to 22 percent against all other defenders. Leonard has been able to keep James in front of him and force tough angles to keep him away from the basket.

It all equals more Leonard vs James

Leonard finished a Heat possession on James 65 percent of the time when James was on the court in Game 3. James attempted only 14 field goal attempts in the game despite a series-high 73 touches.

Percentage of Heat Possessions
With Leonard Guarding James in Finals
The percentage of possessions with Leonard defending James has increased every game this series.

The Heat recognized the work James put in to score with Leonard on him in Game 3 and tried to adjust by setting screens. On 14 different possessions in Game 3, Leonard started a possession on James but switched off due to screens. That happened nine times total in Games 1 and 2.

James was 3-of-4 with six points and an assist in those situations in Game 3.

Whether or not the Heat overcome the 2-1 series deficit could depend on how successful James is against Leonard’s defense going forward.

[SouBeachTalents]

which shows hes declining if he lost to the very same team and guy defending him a year later


2013 was lebrons last prime season.

I'd say LeBron's still been in his prime the last 2 seasons, dude is still an undisputed top 5 player in the league, and was at worst second best in 2014. I would say 2013 was his last peak season, especially so defensively

[Bobcats2013]

You're right. Iggy has always been known for his high powered offense. Got a shot like Steph Curry

[bdreason]

Both guys are highly rated defenders, regardless of LeBron.

[LikeABosh]

FMVP in 2013 and averaged 28 ppg on 57% shooting vs. Leonard. Scored 36 per game vs Iggy and the stacked Warriors with Dellevadova as the Cavs 2nd option. Leonard is the reigning DPOY and Iggy has always been regarded as an elite defender. No one gives a fvck what you think in real life.

[LikeABosh]

which shows hes declining if he lost to the very same team and guy defending him a year later


2013 was lebrons last prime season.
I know it's hard for a Kome fan to comprehend, but basketball is a team sport. Lebron was actually better in 2014 than in 2013. The Heat as a team is what declined. Wade and Bosh, along with the ready to retire role players were pathetic all playoffs. Huff paint you ****ing dweeb.

[ShawkFactory]

kawhi is a great teammate. he could possibly be a HOF'r someday. hes a top 15 player in the nba



but this is basically pau gasols level of greatness



i'm saying lebron made kawhi look like THE BEST player in the nba
I love people that do this.

The expectation is that Lebron scores on Kawhi every time and shuts him down on the other end. Whenever that doesn't happen, even if it's only a play here and there, haters see only that. Never mind all the times Lebron actually DID score on Kawhi (and there were plenty of them). That one play when he picked his pocket or did whatever is all that matters.

Same thing on the other side. Kawhi makes a ridiculous shot in the third quarter of game 3 with Lebron all over him...he's all of a sudden outplaying him for the whole series.

It's adorable when people say Iggy outplayed Lebron too. Even more so than Kawhi.

[rmt]

Careful, Kenneth, the more you knock on Kwahi, the more Duncan builds his case vs Kobe.

I have never seen in all my years of watching the NBA, a lack of double teaming on a superstar as the way teams have chosen to defend Lebron. All other superstars before him have been double-teamed. I don't know the reason why - maybe his passing is so great that they decide on single coverage. Even when Kyrie went down, the Warriors still single covered (I thought this was a big mistake - look at how Musgrov looked like Wilt when they guarded him with what Charles called a midget). They just let Lebron shoot and shoot and shoot and build up unwarranted "high" (but inefficient) scoring each game when that series should have been a sweep after Kyrie went down.

[dhsilv]

and kawhi owes it all to lebron


hes not that special. hes a role player with great defensive skills. but i doubt hes as good as lebron made him look


hes a really good defender. maybe even an all nba defender... but because of lebron we look at kawhi as an all time great

Maybe all NBA defender? Come on man, he's clearly that. He is HOWEVER another one of Duncan's projects. For some reason nobody ever wants to give Duncan credit for the spur's defense. They did ti with Bowen and now they're doing it with Leonard. Duncan's rim protection allows defenders to take more risks and over play the ball. Add in all nba level skills that he has and well he looks like a DPOY guy.

[kennethgriffin]

Careful, Kenneth, the more you knock on Kwahi, the more Duncan builds his case vs Kobe.

I have never seen in all my years of watching the NBA, a lack of double teaming on a superstar as the way teams have chosen to defend Lebron. All other superstars before him have been double-teamed. I don't know the reason why - maybe his passing is so great that they decide on single coverage. Even when Kyrie went down, the Warriors still single covered (I thought this was a big mistake - look at how Musgrov looked like Wilt when they guarded him with what Charles called a midget). They just let Lebron shoot and shoot and shoot and build up unwarranted "high" (but inefficient) scoring each game when that series should have been a sweep after Kyrie went down.


how am i knocking kawhi by saying "hes not a legend"



kawhi is still better than 40 year old duncan...


i'm saying lebron turned him into a household name

[ShawkFactory]

how am i knocking kawhi by saying "hes not a legend"



kawhi is still better than 40 year old duncan...


i'm saying lebron turned him into a household name
You certainly hold Lebron in high regard..

He's a household name because he proved himself to be a good basketball player on a big stage.

And he's a good basketball player.

[dhsilv]

Careful, Kenneth, the more you knock on Kwahi, the more Duncan builds his case vs Kobe.

I have never seen in all my years of watching the NBA, a lack of double teaming on a superstar as the way teams have chosen to defend Lebron. All other superstars before him have been double-teamed. I don't know the reason why - maybe his passing is so great that they decide on single coverage. Even when Kyrie went down, the Warriors still single covered (I thought this was a big mistake - look at how Musgrov looked like Wilt when they guarded him with what Charles called a midget). They just let Lebron shoot and shoot and shoot and build up unwarranted "high" (but inefficient) scoring each game when that series should have been a sweep after Kyrie went down.

Amare back in the good old days was single covered by the spurs and put up some monster games. The thing is teams are better at shooting 3's and 3's are killers. Mid range jump shots don't kill you.

Now go back and watch how teams guard lebron and see if he were to beat his man off the dribble if he'd have a clear path to the basket. I think you'll find teams generally avoid that.

[kennethgriffin]

You certainly hold Lebron in high regard..

He's a household name because he proved himself to be a good basketball player on a big stage.

And he's a good basketball player.


wrong... kawhi was already a good basketball player


he became a legendary Finals MVP NBA champion that got elevated to DPOTY level status because of lebron



and its not because lebron did something good. its because he basically couldnt even attempt a shot half the time kawhi guarded him because he was shook as f*ck


lebron knew he couldnt get his easy layups. he protected his fg%


when he faced andre in 2015 lebron again couldnt get to the rim as easly as in 2013

so lebron settled for fadeaways and mid range shots. threw away his fg% protecting spam game and paid the price


in both instances lebrons age and mileage made kawhi and andre look twice as good as they really are



due to lebrons former greatness. those 2 guys look like they played god like defense. and that single handedly won them both finals mvp.




kawhi and andre are really good defenders. but theyre not legendary. thanks to the false perception that lebron is still the best player in the nba. they are suddenly legendary


its funny to me. cause next year lebron will get locked up again and turn another role player into his teams mvp

[knicksman]

Careful, Kenneth, the more you knock on Kwahi, the more Duncan builds his case vs Kobe.

I have never seen in all my years of watching the NBA, a lack of double teaming on a superstar as the way teams have chosen to defend Lebron. All other superstars before him have been double-teamed. I don't know the reason why - maybe his passing is so great that they decide on single coverage. Even when Kyrie went down, the Warriors still single covered (I thought this was a big mistake - look at how Musgrov looked like Wilt when they guarded him with what Charles called a midget). They just let Lebron shoot and shoot and shoot and build up unwarranted "high" (but inefficient) scoring each game when that series should have been a sweep after Kyrie went down.

jordan could pass as evidenced by his 32/8/8 season or 10+ apg in the finals. Curry too could pass. And considering kobe playing in the same system as jordan and averaging same apg, then theres a possibility that he too could be a pg. It really comes down to not being elite scorer for bran. Or else he wouldnt need stacked teams to win rings.

[ShawkFactory]

wrong... kawhi was already a good basketball player


he became a legendary Finals MVP NBA champion that got elevated to DPOTY level status because of lebron



and its not because lebron did something good. its because he basically couldnt even attempt a shot half the time kawhi guarded him because he was shook as f*ck


lebron knew he couldnt get his easy layups. he protected his fg%


when he faced andre in 2015 lebron again couldnt get to the rim as easly as in 2013

so lebron settled for fadeaways and mid range shots. threw away his fg% protecting spam game and paid the price


in both instances lebrons age and mileage made kawhi and andre look twice as good as they really are



due to lebrons former greatness. those 2 guys look like they played god like defense. and that single handedly won them both finals mvp.




kawhi and andre are really good defenders. but theyre not legendary. thanks to the false perception that lebron is still the best player in the nba. they are suddenly legendary


its funny to me. cause next year lebron will get locked up again and turn another role player into his teams mvp
Didn't read after you said "legendary".

He's legendary to Lebron haters. That's about it.

To the rest of us he's a very good basketball player who stepped up and played a very good series.

[kennethgriffin]

Didn't read after you said "legendary".

He's legendary to Lebron haters. That's about it.

To the rest of us he's a very good basketball player who stepped up and played a very good series.


fmvp/dpoty combos are legends


lebron made it possible

all kawhi basically has to do now is finish his career with 5+ allstar games and hes a hall of fame legend top 30-35 player of all time



if not for lebron kawhi leonard maybe cracks the top 100 at best

[NZStreetBaller]

dont discredit these dudes. lebron aint the only dude they've defended wel yah know.

wether lebron is declining or not. these guys can defend him better then anyone else in the league

[kennethgriffin]

dont discredit these dudes. lebron aint the only dude they've defended wel yah know.

wether lebron is declining or not. these guys can defend him better then anyone else in the league


na... i'm sure theres like 10 guys who can defend lebron just as well


and theyre not legendary.... well... now they are.


thanks lebron



http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/picard_clapping.gif

[ShawkFactory]

fmvp/dpoty combos are legends


lebron made it possible

all kawhi basically has to do now is finish his career with 5+ allstar games and hes a hall of fame legend top 30-35 player of all time



if not for lebron kawhi leonard maybe cracks the top 100 at best
Jordan, Magic, Bird, and wilt are legends. Kawhi Leonard is not, nor will he ever be, a legend.

Again, only to you. Because you hate Lebron that much. He lives in haters' heads.

Kawhi is a good ball player tho

[kennethgriffin]

Jordan, Magic, Bird, and wilt are legends. Kawhi Leonard is not, nor will he ever be, a legend.

Again, only to you. Because you hate Lebron that much. He lives in haters' heads.

Kawhi is a good ball player tho


i know hawhi isnt a legend. but 20 years from now he'l be percieved as one


- won a title over "seemingly" prime lebron james on a stacked miami roster during his 2nd year ( only 22 years old )... pulling off a seemingly 1980 magic johnson type moment in retrospect

- claimed finals mvp .. not just against lebron. but over legends tim duncan and tony parker

- elevated to DPOTY status immediately... rewarded for it a year later in only his 3rd nba season



lmao... give him 4-5 allstar games and hes a top 30-35 legend


hes just gotta finish the race now...



http://weartesters.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/kawhichamp.jpg


http://a1.fssta.com/content/dam/fsdigital/RSN/Southwest/2015/04/23/042315-NBA-KawhiLeonard-PI.vadapt.620.high.0.jpg



http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/10/08/automobiles/wheels-kenseth1/wheels-kenseth1-blog480.jpg



kawhi ^^^ the pink car





lebrons trainwreck pile up basically vaulted kawhi into a 1 man race at half speed to a legendary finish line


http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/stephen-a-smith-laugh-520x245.gif

[ShawkFactory]

LOL you wanna talk 20 years from now?!

20 years from now Kawhi winning a title (with an amazing overall team...) over Lebron will not be remembered. It's remembered now because Lebron is the hot gossip.

People will remember Kawhi as a good player. No matter how hard you push it he won't have outplayed Lebron 20 years from now. Besides from you kids maybe.

Nah you ain't having kids

[kennethgriffin]

LOL you wanna talk 20 years from now?!

20 years from now Kawhi winning a title (with an amazing overall team...) over Lebron will not be remembered. It's remembered now because Lebron is the hot gossip.

People will remember Kawhi as a good player. No matter how hard you push it he won't have outplayed Lebron 20 years from now. Besides from you kids maybe.

Nah you ain't having kids




did this dude really just say people will forget the FMVP/Champion from one of LEBRON JAMES's finals losses on the CHEATLE's



https://gifcrap.com/g2data/albums/Celebrities/Nicolas%20Cage%20laughing%20like%20a%20mad%20man.g if


kawhis statue is already in pre production

[GrapeApe]

I don't agree with most of what OP is saying, but I do agree that 2013 was probably the end of Lebron's peak. He started showing signs of slowing down in 2014, particularly on the defensive end. That's usually the first thing to slip, especially for perimeter players. Decline is inevitable once you approach 30. That being said, he's still in that late stages of his prime and still the best player in the game.

I don't see him winning any more MVP's though. At this stage of his career it's all about winning a title and being healthy for the playoffs. The regular season is a grind and Lebron has a ton of mileage already. He knows his legacy will be defined by titles and not regular season accolades.

[kennethgriffin]

I don't agree with most of what OP is saying, but I do agree that 2013 was probably the end of Lebron's peak. He started showing signs of slowing down in 2014, particularly on the defensive end. That's usually the first thing to slip, especially for perimeter players. Decline is inevitable once you approach 30. That being said, he's still in that late stages of his prime and still the best player in the game.

I don't see him winning any more MVP's though. At this stage of his career it's all about winning a title and being healthy for the playoffs. The regular season is a grind and Lebron has a ton of mileage already. He knows his legacy will be defined by titles and not regular season accolades.


what exactly makes him the best?

hes not the MVP - Steph Curry is

hes not the NBA champion - Steph Curry is

hes not the PER leader - Anthony Davis is

hes not the most dynamic wing - Russell Westbrook is

hes not the leagues leading scorer - Russell Westbrook is

hes not even a 1st team all defender anymore

he gets locked up by hasbeen role players like andre iguodala

shot 27% from beyond 5 feet in the nba finals


i'l say it again

what exactly makes lebron the best

[GrapeApe]

what exactly makes him the best?

hes not the MVP - Steph Curry is

hes not the NBA champion - Steph Curry is

hes not the PER leader - Anthony Davis is

hes not the most dynamic wing - Russell Westbrook is

hes not the leagues leading scorer - Russell Westbrook is

hes not even a 1st team all defender anymore

he gets locked up by hasbeen role players like andre iguodala

shot 27% from beyond 5 feet in the nba finals


i'l say it again

what exactly makes lebron the best

Because being the best at one particular thing is not a requirement for being the best overall player. Lebron still has the best combination of abilities in the league. If you polled every coach and player in the league I guarantee Lebron would be still be the overwhelming choice as the league's best player.

[warriorfan]

Because being the best at one particular thing is not a requirement for being the best overall player. Lebron still has the best combination of abilities in the league. If you polled every coach and player in the league I guarantee Lebron would be still be the overwhelming choice as the league's best player.

Wrong. Stephen Curry would be.

[kennethgriffin]

Because being the best at one particular thing is not a requirement for being the best overall player. Lebron still has the best combination of abilities in the league. If you polled every coach and player in the league I guarantee Lebron would be still be the overwhelming choice as the league's best player.


but lebron isnt the best at anything

[GrapeApe]

Wrong. Stephen Curry would be.

:oldlol:

You mean the guy who wasn't even the MVP on his own team in the finals?

If anything, Iguodala winning FMVP strengthen's Lebron's case as being considered the best player in the league.

[GrapeApe]

but lebron isnt the best at anything

I just said that (or implied it). :wtf:

That doesn't mean he's not the best overall player.

[knicksman]

Because being the best at one particular thing is not a requirement for being the best overall player. Lebron still has the best combination of abilities in the league. If you polled every coach and player in the league I guarantee Lebron would be still be the overwhelming choice as the league's best player.

except that there are skills more important than others like scoring being the most important or else the top 10 atg wouldnt be dominated by scorers. :confusedshrug: And since bran isnt the best at the most important skill and "high apg=not teamplayer/cancer"(see oscar/iverson/marbury) then its not a surprise that bran is an underachiever. I mean 4 mvps for just 2/6.

[dubeta]

except that there are skills than others like scoring being the most important or else the top 10 atg wouldnt be dominated by scorers. :confusedshrug: And since bran isnt the best at the most important skill then "high apg=not teamplayer/cancer"(see oscar/iverson/marbury) then its not a surprise that bran is an underachiever. I mean 4 mvps for just 2/6.


your favourite players are kobe and curry

kobe statpadded yet ended up 2/5 in fmvps

and curry tried his hardest to statpad and ended up 0/11

both fails

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Kawhi Leonard is a better defender than Bowen who was probably the best defensive guard of the mid 2000s. Leonard could clamp down on a prime Kobe just like Bowen could.

[knicksman]

your favourite players are kobe and curry

kobe statpadded yet ended up 2/5 in fmvps

and curry tried his hardest to statpad and ended up 0/11

both fails

you are so mad that your boy cant attract double teams:oldlol: But GOAT tho:oldlol:

[LikeABosh]

Kenny boy avoiding me like the plague. :oldlol: Take the L

[kennethgriffin]

Kawhi Leonard is a better defender than Bowen who was probably the best defensive guard of the mid 2000s. Leonard could clamp down on a prime Kobe just like Bowen could.


kobes stats and record vs the spurs in the playoffs says otherwise


:lol

[rmt]

Amare back in the good old days was single covered by the spurs and put up some monster games. The thing is teams are better at shooting 3's and 3's are killers. Mid range jump shots don't kill you.

Now go back and watch how teams guard lebron and see if he were to beat his man off the dribble if he'd have a clear path to the basket. I think you'll find teams generally avoid that.

I don't consider Amare a superstar - him going off was not going to make the Suns win and he doesn't make other players better. I'm talking legendary players - who were all routinely double-teamed. Lebron has not been doubled. In 2013 Finals, Leonard laid off him - gave him all kinds of space. In 2014 Finals, KL was right up into Lebron. So I don't think it's a matter of Lebron beating his man off the dribble - he can't against Leonard. Neither year was he doubled.

[dhsilv]

Wrong. Stephen Curry would be.

Didn't players pick harden to be the mvp?

[dhsilv]

I don't consider Amare a superstar - him going off was not going to make the Suns win and he doesn't make other players better. I'm talking legendary players - who were all routinely double-teamed. Lebron has not been doubled. In 2013 Finals, Leonard laid off him - gave him all kinds of space. In 2014 Finals, KL was right up into Lebron. So I don't think it's a matter of Lebron beating his man off the dribble - he can't against Leonard. Neither year was he doubled.

I guess, 2005 and 2008 Amare was a beast and he did make others better imo, look at nash winningi MVP's off his play, lol. Anyway the problem with him was that the suns were better if teams doubled him because they were designed to shoot.

The thing that teams keep leaning is that if you can force a guy into a jump shot contested and not a 3 you want that. You never want layups or 3's. I don't see Durant getting double teamed like we saw with players from the past. Teams realize it's better to die by the 2 than the 3.

[rmt]

I guess, 2005 and 2008 Amare was a beast and he did make others better imo, look at nash winningi MVP's off his play, lol. Anyway the problem with him was that the suns were better if teams doubled him because they were designed to shoot.

The thing that teams keep leaning is that if you can force a guy into a jump shot contested and not a 3 you want that. You never want layups or 3's. I don't see Durant getting double teamed like we saw with players from the past. Teams realize it's better to die by the 2 than the 3.

IMO, what made the Suns so potent on offense was Nash's ability to push the ball and find the open 3 before the opponent set up their defense. I disagree that Nash won MVP off Amare's play and that he made others better. Yes, they were lethal with the pick and roll in the half court, but that play was not enough to win games without the easy 3s that Nash generated. The Spurs defended them well - stick to the 3 pt shooters (good transition D), force Nash to shoot the ball (instead of pass) and let Amare have his. And the Suns couldn't stop them on the other side of the court.

[rmt]

Kawhi Leonard is a better defender than Bowen who was probably the best defensive guard of the mid 2000s. Leonard could clamp down on a prime Kobe just like Bowen could.

Bowen had extremely quick feet and could defend PGs much better than KL - especially crafty ones like Nash/Paul. He was very good going around screens unlike KL and better at defending thinner framed players (like a Dirk, Durant) than KL (who defends a Lebron, Carmelo type player better).

KL is an extremely good rebounder for his size (unlike Bowen who couldn't rebound or steal) and because of his length and huge hands, is elite at steals.

Bowen was an iron man - setting a Spurs record for starting 500 consecutive games (interrupted only because of the unfair ruling incident with Paul). Leonard, otoh, has not topped 66 games in each of his 4 seasons due to injury (and lockout). Completely different defenders but both elite.