Peak Lebron vs Peak Wilt

[Marchesk]

Lebron 2012/2013:

26.8/8.0/7.3 on 56.5%
31.6 PER, 64.0 TS%, 19.3 WS, .322 WS/48
MVP, Heat 66-16

Playoffs:

25.9/8.4/6.6 on 49.1%
28.1 PER, 58.5 TS%, .260 WS/48
FMVP, championship in 7 over SAS

Wilt 1966/1967

24.1/24.2/7.8 on 68.3%
26.5 PER, 63.7 TS%, 21.9 WS, .285 WS/48
MVP, 76ers 68-13

Playoffs

21.7/29.1/9.0 on 57.9%
25.3 PER, 54.6 TS%, .253 WS/48
???, championship in 6 over GSW (Barry, Thurmond)


And then you have Lebron's perimeter and help defense versus Wilt's rim protection and post defense.

Edit: fixed Wilt's regular season WS and 67 playoffs (d'oh)

[dubeta]

So LeBron had a higher PER and higher WS/48 both in the regular season and the Playoffs, yet OP still thinks this is a valid discussion?

:lol



A Peak LeBron easily >> Peak Shaq and Wilt, no debate here

[dubeta]

You think we'e impressed with Wilts stats with 200 possessions a game, playing 50 minutes a night while unable to dribble without looking down? :lol

[Marchesk]

You think we'e impressed with Wilts stats with 200 possessions a game, playing 50 minutes a night while unable to dribble without looking down? :lol

Wilt led the league in rebounding and FG%, was fifth in scoring and third in assists (:bowdown:).

He also led in win shares, and was second to Russell in defensive win shares.

The league pace was 121.6 that season with the TS% at 49.3.
2012 it was 92.0 with the TS% at 53.0.

[Asukal]

Good comparison! They are neck and neck greatest chokers of all time. 1a and 1b. :applause: :applause: :applause:

[imnew09]

Both GOAT Final Choker performer :bowdown:

[ShaqTwizzle]

Kinda confused about the Wilt stats.
You used his 67 reg-season but his 68 playoffs stats.

Either way I am not blown away by Wilt's playoff offense in either run.

(stats p42)
G7 : 19-ppg / 7.9-apg on .546%TS
68 : 20.5-ppg / 5.6-apg on .511%TS

Yeah he was a great defensive anchor those two years and of course provided his rebounding but I just don't think his offensive burden or performance level was on the same level as say Peak Lebron, Jabbar, Jordan or Shaq.

Anyway I think I would go with Lebron.

[Marchesk]

You used his 67 reg-season but his 68 playoffs stats.

You're right, my fault. I'll edit the OP.


(stats p42)
G7 : 19-ppg / 7.9-apg on .546%TS
68 : 20.5-ppg / 5.6-apg on .511%TS

Not sure what stats those are ???

For 67 on BR I see:

21.7/29.1/9.0 (with 57.9 FG%)

That's amazing.

[ShaqTwizzle]

You're right, my fault. I'll edit the OP.


Not a problem.


21.7/29.1/9.0 (with 57.9 FG%)

That's amazing.

The 9-apg is indeed amazing.
Scoring wise though his 21.7-ppg on .546%TS is not as impressive.

I can't say how valuable those 9-apg really were (not all assists are equal in value obviously).
For example I don't know how many assists were gotten off of hand off/sytem type plays or true postup, collapse and pass type plays.
Were more footage of that team available it would be easier to say.

Also Wilt was on a pretty stacked team and I am not sure his offensive burden or role size was really on the same level as an 13 Lebron who had to score 27-30+ppg while also creating a bunch of opportunities for their teammates.

Still you can't ignore Wilt's rebounding or defensive edge even if Lebron was more impressive offensively.

[Lebron23]

LeBron James

Better playoffs and better Finals performer

Wilt sucks in the NBA Finals. He only averaged 18 ppg.

[Marchesk]

LeBron James

Better playoffs and better Finals performer

Wilt sucks in the NBA Finals. He only averaged 18 ppg.

Four of Wilt's finals came after his prime in his 30s, and only one came during his volume scoring days, and that was in 64. The thing to realize is that in five of Wilt's finals, he was no longer the team's number one scorer. He had a different role.

Had Wilt's teams been able to get past the Celtics to play the Lakers early on, his average would probably look a lot different.

[feyki]

LeBron James

Better playoffs and better Finals performer

Wilt sucks in the NBA Finals. He only averaged 18 ppg.

Prime Wilt averaged 24 pts with %53 fg , 29 rib , 4 ast at him first two finals.

Lebron not level on Wilt's , like Kareem said .

[NBAplayoffs2001]

Wilt dealt with all time great teams in the Finals. Those 70s Knicks teams were no joke either. 60s Celtics are arguably the greatest mirage of team work and defense.

[LikeABosh]

Adjusted for pace of play and taking into consideration the pathetically weak era he played in, Wilt's stats would look something like 12 ppg, 11 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 blocks.

[Psileas]

Peak whoever vs Peak Wilt = Peak Wilt

Next

[iTare]

Peak whoever vs Peak Wilt = Peak Wilt

Next
Why tho?

[Marchesk]

Adjusted for pace of play and taking into consideration the pathetically weak era he played in, Wilt's stats would look something like 12 ppg, 11 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 blocks.

Uh huh. A 7'1 athletic center with a 7'8" wingspan who was the best rebounder and shot blocker in an era of elite bigs is going to average less than Ibaka and Kevin Love. And he's going to be a worse scorer than Jordan and Howard, even though he ended up with a 30 ppg career average.

Right. :facepalm

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Crazy as it sounds, LeBron is in fact less prone to choking.

There's gotta be some tie-breaker when comparing the two... :oldlol:

[SHAQisGOAT]

Top5 GOAT peaks... Shaq, Jordan, Kareem, Wilt and Bird.

LeBron's top10, so...

[dubeta]

Top5 GOAT peaks... Shaq, Jordan, Kareem, Wilt and Bird.

LeBron's top10, so...


LOL just LOL

I destroyed the Bird vs LeBron debate, just stop it.


Wilt also

[SHAQisGOAT]

LOL just LOL

I destroyed the Bird vs LeBron debate, just stop it.


Wilt also

Only thing you destroy is your life, by staying 24/7 on an internet forum posting the most ignorant shit, thinking you're somewhat funny with all that stupid trolling... :facepalm :rolleyes:

[dubeta]

Only thing you destroy is your life, by staying 24/7 on an internet forum posting the most ignorant shit, thinking you're somewhat funny with all that stupid trolling... :facepalm :rolleyes:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386544


Here, either way you slice it, career, prime, peak, LeBron comes out ahead of Bird.

[3ball]

Here, either way you slice it, career, prime, peak, LeBron comes out ahead of Bird.


^^^ Bulllshit - Lebron significantly lowers the APG and assist % of his teammates:


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)


Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), .8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'): 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)
Irving apg and assist % with... Lebron (2015):... 5.2, 25.0%


Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN: 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:. 2.2, 10.7%

Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron: 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron: 4.1, 20.1%


Lebron's presence significantly lowered the APG and assist percentage of Dwayne Wade, Kyrie Irving, Mo Williams, Kevin Love and Chris Bosh, while increasing their assisted rates.. Lower APG and higher assisted rates proves that these guys went from playmakers to play-finishers.. Their reduced playmaking alongside Lebron explains why Lebron's TEAMS (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446) have always had very low assist frequency.

Keep in mind that teams normally have 1 low-assisted, ball-dominator - the point guard.. But Lebron's presence as an additional, low-assisted ball-dominator (in addition to the PG) creates an inequitable distribution of playmaking, which prevents the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that all the great teams use (Bird's Celtics, 90's Bulls, Mavs, Spurs, Warriors)... Since Lebron's ball-dominance prevents his teams from playing the best brand of basketball, equal or less-talented opponents are able to pull upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..

Btw, it takes more ability to achieve great stats within an equal-opportunity, winning framework like Bird, than the stat-friendly, easily-solvable, grade school-level, playground style that ball-dominators like Lebron need to get their numbers.

[3ball]

.
Also, Bird has none of these massive indictments on his game:


1) Lebron is poor at the additional midrange and 1-on-1 required of high volume shooting - this is statistical fact - so he can't shoot well at high volume, which means you don't need to double team him.. No other top 15 player has these horrible indictments on their game.

2) Lebron's poor of 1-on-1 and midrange efficiency also prevents him from being as good in the 80's, when these were the primary options remaining in the absence of the 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile (Lebron's most-used attack).. Without teammates spreading the floor for him and making drive-and-kick the force it is today, Lebron would have to score a much higher proportion via 1-on-1 and mid-range like everyone else in the 80's - since his efficiency in very poor in these areas, we know for a fact he would be a lesser player back then.

3) Lebron craters the APG and assist % of his teammates - this is statistical fact - lower APG for teammates means Lebron prevents the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that the Mavs, Spurs, Warriors, and 90's Bulls used, where all 5 guys share the playmaking duties - since Lebron prevents the best brand of basketball, his teams are susceptible to equal or less-talented opponents pulling upsets by playing a better of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).


As you can see, 27 ppg from two players are achieved in vastly different ways and have different impacts on the team... 27 ppg from Player A does NOT equal 27 ppg from Player B.