My top 15 all-time

[3ball]

Russell
MJ
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Kareem
Shaq
Hakeem
Mikan
Duncan
Oscar
Kobe
Elgin
Garnett
Moses


No Lebron team could ever play like the Spurs, whereas a Garnett-led team can..

That makes Garnett more valuable to a lot of good teams - since Garnett can fit on good teams and well-coached teams better than Lebron, he's more capable of playing a superior brand of basketball - winning basketball.

Lebron's impact on good teams or with good coaching is less than these guys, since his ball-dominance ruins any good strategy
.

[Dr Hawk]

Wow, I did not expect you to have anyone above Jordan

[Dragonyeuw]

Wait- you dont have MJ as your GOAT?! Why do you spend so much time analzying MJ? Just curious...

[Dr Hawk]

I would like to know, why do you have Russell over Jordan? What is your criteria?

[Smoke117]

You would actually have to know something about 14 of those other players to make a top 15 list, bro.

[3ball]

You would actually have to know something about 14 of those other players to make a top 15 list, bro.


Lebron's ball-dominant style hamstrings coaches.. No Lebron team could ever play like the Spurs, whereas a Garnett-led team can.

That makes Garnett more valuable to a lot of good teams - since Garnett is more valuable to good teams and well-coached teams, he's more capable of playing a superior brand of basketball - winning basketball.

[Doranku]

Russell > Jordan, but Wilt > Kareem?

Strange. Also, why do you have Duncan rated so low?

[Cocaine80s]

Lebron's ball-dominant style hamstrings coaches.. No Lebron team could ever play like the Spurs, whereas a Garnett-led team can.

That makes Garnett more valuable to a lot of good teams - since Garnett is more valuable to good teams and well-coached teams, he's more capable of playing a superior brand of basketball - winning basketball.
That makes Garnett a role player

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/586980196152172544/qzYohyac.jpg

[ralph_i_el]

http://i.imgur.com/2XKyIR7.png

[3ball]

3ball PM me I think I can help your trolling, has gone completely shit recently


No Lebron team could ever play like the Spurs, whereas a Garnett-led team can..

Since Garnett can fit on good teams and well-coached teams better than Lebron, he's more capable of playing a superior brand of basketball - winning basketball.

Lebron's impact on good teams or with good coaching is less than these guys, since his ball-dominance ruins any good strategy

[ISHGoat]

:facepalm

You typed all that just to hate on lebron?

[3ball]

:facepalm

You typed all that just to hate on lebron?
A lot of Lebron's respect comes from his overblown impact on bad teams..

But a guy like Garnett fits on good teams and well-coached teams better than Lebron, which means he's more capable of playing a superior brand of basketball - winning, smart basketball.

Infact, Lebron's impact on good teams or with good coaching is less than A LOT of guys, since his ball-dominance ruins any good strategy

[Lebron23]

Lebron is a 4x NBA MVP, 2x NBA Champion, 1x NBA Scoring Champion, led the playoffs in scoring 3x.

[Vaniiiia]

You would actually have to know something about 14 of those other players to make a top 15 list, bro.
Ether.

3ball literally knows nothing about sports. Dude thought a game tying shot was a "walk-off" shot. :oldlol: :facepalm

And LOL at him having Russell as GOAT, obviously that's just to make it seem like he's objective because he himself has stated on several occasions, almost daily, that Jordan is GOAT. Now all of a sudden it's Russell. The guy who could barely score 20 points a game.... :oldlol:

Good one 3ball! So clever of you. Tell us more about those "walk-off" game tying shots bro... you're clearly a knowledgeable and credible athlete. :oldlol:

[Smoke117]

Ether.

3ball literally knows nothing about sports. Dude thought a game tying shot was a "walk-off" shot. :oldlol: :facepalm

And LOL at him having Russell as GOAT, obviously that's just to make it seem like he's objective because he himself has stated on several occasions, almost daily, that Jordan is GOAT. Now all of a sudden it's Russell. The guy who could barely score 20 points a game.... :oldlol:

Good one 3ball! So clever of you. Tell us more about those "walk-off" game tying shots bro... you're clearly a knowledgeable and credible athlete. :oldlol:

All these words that nobodyh or I because i'm lemting downz laolzozlzlz laamriite? no? yes? no yes noe nad;lajfd;asd

[Lebron23]

Ether.

3ball literally knows nothing about sports. Dude thought a game tying shot was a "walk-off" shot. :oldlol: :facepalm

And LOL at him having Russell as GOAT, obviously that's just to make it seem like he's objective because he himself has stated on several occasions, almost daily, that Jordan is GOAT. Now all of a sudden it's Russell. The guy who could barely score 20 points a game.... :oldlol:

Good one 3ball! So clever of you. Tell us more about those "walk-off" game tying shots bro... you're clearly a knowledgeable and credible athlete. :oldlol:


God Damn it. back to back good posts.

[IllegalD]

Lebron is a 4x NBA MVP, 2x NBA Champion, 1x NBA Scoring Champion, led the playoffs in scoring 3x.

LeBron Stanleys always leading with meaningless (retarded)media-voted regular season accolades, because that's all LeBron is good for. :roll:

[Lebron23]

LeBron Stanleys always leading with meaningless (retarded)media-voted regular season accolades, because that's all LeBron is good for. :roll:


You are so stupid.

[IllegalD]

You are so stupid.

You're one of the biggest jokes on this message board.

Bandwagonning small-dicked pinoy.

[ralph_i_el]

wtf, 3Ball posted a huge copy-pasta, and I gave it the "Tl;DR" gif and now all those posts have been deleted :wtf:

just ban the ****er

[dubeta]

wtf, 3Ball posted a huge copy-pasta, and I gave it the "Tl;DR" gif and now all those posts have been deleted :wtf:

just ban the ****er


He's gonna repost within 30 seconds

Brace yourself

[T_L_P]

:oldlol: at Elgin > Hakeem, Duncan.

The Lakers finally won a title when the dude retired.

[ralph_i_el]

He's gonna repost within 30 seconds

Brace yourself

but how are my posts gone? If he deletes a post a quoted, my post shouldn't be deleted. Is this a conspiracy?
http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/trmp.gif

[Lebron23]

All Net likely deleted the posts.


You're one of the biggest jokes on this message board.

Bandwagonning small-dicked pinoy.


All of your posts are all about loving Kobe, and hating on LeBron. You are Full of $hit, and so predictable.

[Asukal]

Choke god at number 3? Terrible list. :biggums:

[IllegalD]

All Net likely deleted the posts.




All of your posts are all about loving Kobe, and hating on LeBron. You are Full of $hit, and so predictable.

Says the guy who for the first couple of years on this board all you did was copy and paste sh*t from wikipedia and pass it off as your own...? :confusedshrug:

Why don't you tell us again about how THIS year is definitely the year where LeBron finally wins his 3rd ring and 3rd Finals MVP. :confusedshrug: :roll:

[Lebron23]

Says the guy who for the first couple of years on this board all you did was copy and paste sh*t from wikipedia and pass it off as your own...? :confusedshrug:

Why don't you tell us again about how THIS year is definitely the year where LeBron finally wins his 3rd ring and 3rd Finals MVP. :confusedshrug: :roll:


What are you talking about?? Lebron winning his 3rd finals MVP might happen while Kobe leading your team back into the playoffs is just another wishful thinking.

[feyki]

Russell > Jordan, but Wilt > Kareem?

Strange. Also, why do you have Duncan rated so low?

:rockon:

Kareem,Russell and Jordan always top 3 goat player for me .

I think Oscar is little bit overrated cause he has only 6 prime years at between 62-67 . He's peak top 10 all time but him career not. I ranked Oscar at 16 my all time list .

D-Wade prime good as Kobe's but why we ranked Kobe above Wade? Cause Kobe has 12-13 years prime , Wade has 6-7 years .

[Beastmode88]

What are you talking about?? Lebron winning his 3rd finals MVP might happen while Kobe leading your team back into the playoffs is just another wishful thinking.

Could of won fmvp last year but was locked down by a bench warmer. :roll: :roll:

[Dragonyeuw]

but how are my posts gone? If he deletes a post a quoted, my post shouldn't be deleted. Is this a conspiracy?
http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/trmp.gif

Similar thing happened to me some time ago. Was having one of those long-winded debates with him, and then all of a sudden his posts disappeared and reappeared after my own posts which were addressing what he had deleted. Wound up destroying the entire flow of the thread for anyone joining and trying to follow wtf was going on.

[ralph_i_el]

Similar thing happened to me some time ago. Was having one of those long-winded debates with him, and then all of a sudden his posts disappeared and reappeared after my own posts which were addressing what he had deleted. Wound up destroying the entire flow of the thread for anyone joining and trying to follow wtf was going on.

lends credence to the theory that he has the mods backing him up, or is the alt of a mod himself.

[sdot_thadon]

:oldlol:
Great list man, you definitely know your shit.
get help son

[sd3035]

Good troll job by putting MJ at #2 :roll:

[Dbrog]

Ether.

3ball literally knows nothing about sports. Dude thought a game tying shot was a "walk-off" shot. :oldlol: :facepalm

And LOL at him having Russell as GOAT, obviously that's just to make it seem like he's objective because he himself has stated on several occasions, almost daily, that Jordan is GOAT. Now all of a sudden it's Russell. The guy who could barely score 20 points a game.... :oldlol:

Good one 3ball! So clever of you. Tell us more about those "walk-off" game tying shots bro... you're clearly a knowledgeable and credible athlete. :oldlol:

Ya no shit. He doesn't even know what defensive 3 seconds is or how illegal defense worked. Definitely plot twist with Russell at #1 though. Entertaining :oldlol:

[AirFederer]

No Bron?
All D Russ as the GOAT?
Kobe and Wilt that high?
Well well well, I don't like your list.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Damn, 3ball fkn ethered everyone here and left, savage.

[3ball]

I gave all players the "Spurs Test".

If the player would prevent and/or couldn't fit into a Spurs-type, cutting edge, equal-opportunity offense, then they didn't rate in my book.

If you can't fit into a Spurs-type, advanced strategy offense, then you can't play the best brand of basketball - you can't play good basketball..

What am i missing

[sdot_thadon]

I gave all players the "Spurs Test".

If the player would prevent and/or couldn't fit into a Spurs-type, cutting edge, equal-opportunity offense, then they didn't rate in my book.

If you can't fit into a Spurs-type, advanced strategy offense, then you can't play the best brand of basketball - you can't play good basketball..

What am i missing
A brain amongst other things....

[sdot_thadon]

http://www.lastwordonnothing.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Wizard-of-Oz-Scarecrow.jpeg

[ralph_i_el]

http://byt.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/137547-dr-steve-brule-it-feels-like-m-wipy.gif
3Ball rn

[3ball]

:oldlol: at Elgin > Hakeem, Duncan.


I rated all-round wing players like Kobe, Elgin and Oscar over flawed bigs - and I consider Hakeem and Duncan to be flawed, and a level below the Wilt/Kareem/Shaq big man tier.. Kobe, Elgin and Oscar are flawed in their own ways, but I rated the all-round skill of these guys over that of flawed bigs.

And by "flawed", I'm talking about their careers as a whole - in Hakeem's case, he didn't develop into an elite offensive player until about 1993, or more than halfway into his career - before that Hakeem was a perennially LOSING player - his teams were horrible and always got routed and destroyed... And of course, he only has 2 rings because of the severely flukey instance of MJ retiring early.. Hakeem is super-flawed compared to the top big man tier (Wilt/Kareem/Shaq)

In Duncan's case, I question his leadership - he's too quiet/passive - his deficiencies as a leader were covered up by playing in Pop's system, but he was exposed in the 2002 World Championshiops.. He sat by helplessly while Iverson ran the team into the ground... Also, let's be real - he never sniffed the dominant level of Wilt/Kareem/Shaq - and honestly, Shaq destroyed him many times and was obviously much more dominant.... I can't in good conscience put him on the top big man tier - he's CLEARLY a level below that.

[warriorfan]

Ether.

3ball literally knows nothing about sports. Dude thought a game tying shot was a "walk-off" shot. :oldlol: :facepalm

And LOL at him having Russell as GOAT, obviously that's just to make it seem like he's objective because he himself has stated on several occasions, almost daily, that Jordan is GOAT. Now all of a sudden it's Russell. The guy who could barely score 20 points a game.... :oldlol:

Good one 3ball! So clever of you. Tell us more about those "walk-off" game tying shots bro... you're clearly a knowledgeable and credible athlete. :oldlol:

what

a

meltdown

[3ball]

A brain amongst other things....
:applause: funny

[ralph_i_el]

I rated all-round wing players like Kobe, Elgin and Oscar over flawed bigs - and I consider Hakeem and Duncan to be flawed, and a level below the Wilt/Kareem/Shaq big man tier.. Kobe, Elgin and Oscar are flawed in their own ways, but I rated the all-round skill of these guys over that of flawed bigs.

And by "flawed", I'm talking about their careers as a whole - in Hakeem's case, he didn't develop into an elite offensive player until about 1993, or more than halfway into his career - before that Hakeem was a perennially LOSING player - his teams were horrible and always got routed and destroyed... And of course, he only has 2 rings because of the severely flukey instance of MJ retiring early.. Hakeem is super-flawed compared to the top big man tier (Wilt/Kareem/Shaq)

In Duncan's case, I question his leadership - he's too quiet/passive - his deficiencies as a leader were covered up by playing in Pop's system, but he was exposed in the 2002 World Championshiops.. He sat by helplessly while Iverson ran the team into the ground... Also, let's be real - he never sniffed the dominant level of Wilt/Kareem/Shaq - and honestly, Shaq destroyed him many times and was obviously much more dominant.... I can't in good conscience put him on the top big man tier - he's CLEARLY a level below that.

:rolleyes: You can still be quiet/passive and be a great leader. Duncan leads by example. There's a reason why guys buy into the Spurs system, and it's not just Pop. How can you not give it your all when you have a guy like Tim Duncan on your side? He's probably the best loved star player by his teammates in history.

[3ball]

All D Russ as the GOAT?



Only Russell could've tolerated all the things he tolerated with the grace he did, and having everyone love and respect him the way they did... Russell is the GOAT leader bar none... In today's game, guys would be clamoring to play with him and Russell's brilliance would probably MAKE the career of someone like Pop or Phil Jackson, the same way Duncan and Jordan did.

[3ball]

What are you talking about?? Lebron winning his 3rd finals MVP might happen while Kobe leading your team back into the playoffs is just another wishful thinking.


:whatever: :kobe: :coleman:.. C'mon dude... The reasons Lebron didn't make top 15 are VERY strong:


1) Lebron isn't capable of good efficiency at high shot volume

The 27 shots per game that Lebron took in 2015 playoffs can't be achieved on all 3-and-D.. But unfortunately, Lebron is poor at the additional midrange and 1-on-1 required of high volume shooting - this is statistical fact - since he can't shoot well at high volume, he doesn't require/command a double team.. No other top 15 player has these horrible indictments on their game.


2) Lebron's poor midrange and 1-on-1 ability means he wouldn't be as good in the 80's

Lebron's poor 1-on-1 and midrange efficiency also prevents him from being as good in the 80's, when these were the primary options remaining in the absence of the 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile (driving and kicking for 2-pointers isn't worthwhile by comparison).. Without teammates spreading the floor with threes to make drive-and-kick the force it is today, Lebron would have to score a much higher proportion via 1-on-1 and mid-range like everyone else in the 80's - since his efficiency in very poor in these areas, we know for a fact he would be a lesser player back then.


3) Lebron's low-assisted play reduces teammates' assist opportunities and doesn't positively impact his team's assist frequency

Starting fives normally have only 1 ball-dominant, low-assisted player that teammates rarely throw assists to - the point guard - but Lebron's point guard style from the forward position adds a 2nd low-assisted player that teammates can't throw assists to, which lowers the assist capacity of the team - not surprisingly, Lebron's presence didn't improve the assist frequency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446) of his Heat and Cavs teams.. Otoh, MJ was a highly-assisted, off-ball player, so his presence significantly increased the assist frequency of the Bulls' teams, as the data linked above shows.


4) Lebron's presence as an extra point guard results in a concentration of playmaking responsibilities among the 2 point guards, which reduces the APG of the remaining teammates and prevents more optimal, equal-opportunity offenses

The APG and assist % of teammates crater alongside Lebron (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841), while their assisted rate increases - this proves Lebron's presence as an extra point guard turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers, thus preventing the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that the Mavs, Spurs, Warriors, and 90's Bulls used (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s), where all 5 guys share the playmaking duties - since Lebron prevents the best brand of basketball, his teams are susceptible to equal or less-talented opponents pulling upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..


5) Lebron achieves his stats at the expense of teammates and by employing a stat-friendly, losing style

The fact that Lebron usually leads a top 5 offense is not noteworthy.. Nash, Kevin Johnson, Karl Malone and many other players have led top 5 offenses as well.. It means nothing.. Otoh, Lebron's stats lack integrity because he achieves them at the expense of teammates - as previously shown, it's a statistical fact that Lebron significantly lowers the PPG and APG of teammates... With Lebron's production preventing teammates from playing to capacity (lower ppg, apg), the TEAM can't play to capacity and underperforms (2009, 2011, 2014).. His stat accumulation is also helped by employing a stat-friendly, easily-solvable, losing, playground style, rather than the superior, nuanced skill required to achieve stats within an equal-opportunity offense that can actually win.
.

[ralph_i_el]

I gave all players the "Spurs Test".

If the player would prevent and/or couldn't fit into a Spurs-type, cutting edge, equal-opportunity offense, then they didn't rate in my book.

If you can't fit into a Spurs-type, advanced strategy offense, then you can't play the best brand of basketball - you can't play good basketball..

What am i missing

Then why is Kobe in your top 10? Use your own logic.

[ralph_i_el]

:whatever: :kobe: :coleman:.. C'mon dude... The reasons Lebron didn't make top 15 are VERY strong:


1) Lebron isn't capable of good efficiency at high shot volume

The 27 shots per game that Lebron took in 2015 playoffs can't be achieved on all 3-and-D.. But unfortunately, Lebron is poor at the additional midrange and 1-on-1 required of high volume shooting - this is statistical fact - since he can't shoot well at high volume, he doesn't require/command a double team.. No other top 15 player has these horrible indictments on their game.


2) Lebron's poor midrange and 1-on-1 ability means he wouldn't be as good in the 80's

Lebron's poor 1-on-1 and midrange efficiency also prevents him from being as good in the 80's, when these were the primary options remaining in the absence of the 3-pointers necessary to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile (driving and kicking for 2-pointers isn't worthwhile by comparison).. Without teammates spreading the floor with threes to make drive-and-kick the force it is today, Lebron would have to score a much higher proportion via 1-on-1 and mid-range like everyone else in the 80's - since his efficiency in very poor in these areas, we know for a fact he would be a lesser player back then.


3) Lebron's low-assisted play reduces teammates' assist opportunities and doesn't positively impact his team's assist frequency

Starting fives normally have only 1 ball-dominant, low-assisted player that teammates rarely throw assists to - the point guard - but Lebron's point guard style from the forward position adds a 2nd low-assisted player that teammates can't throw assists to, which lowers the assist capacity of the team - not surprisingly, Lebron's presence didn't improve the assist frequency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446) of his Heat and Cavs teams.. Otoh, MJ was a highly-assisted, off-ball player, so his presence significantly increased the assist frequency of the Bulls' teams, as the data linked above shows.


4) Lebron's presence as an extra point guard results in a concentration of playmaking responsibilities among the 2 point guards, which reduces the APG of the remaining teammates and prevents more optimal, equal-opportunity offenses

The APG and assist % of teammates crater alongside Lebron (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841), while their assisted rate increases - this proves Lebron's presence as an extra point guard turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers, thus preventing the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that the Mavs, Spurs, Warriors, and 90's Bulls used (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s), where all 5 guys share the playmaking duties - since Lebron prevents the best brand of basketball, his teams are susceptible to equal or less-talented opponents pulling upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..

LeBron has already proven he can score on high volume AND efficiency in the playoffs. 1 series missing his two best shooters does not equal an entire career. Check his shooting numbers the last 3 seasons in Miami.

LeBron has proven he can score in ISO situations. He's no MJ or Kobe, but who is?

LeBrons teams consistently have high AST% as a team, and are consistently in the top-5 of offensive efficiency.

You are a copy-pasting ****** troll

[ClipperRevival]

I rated all-round wing players like Kobe, Elgin and Oscar over flawed bigs - and I consider Hakeem and Duncan to be flawed, and a level below the Wilt/Kareem/Shaq big man tier.. Kobe, Elgin and Oscar are flawed in their own ways, but I rated the all-round skill of these guys over that of flawed bigs.

And by "flawed", I'm talking about their careers as a whole - in Hakeem's case, he didn't develop into an elite offensive player until about 1993, or more than halfway into his career - before that Hakeem was a perennially LOSING player - his teams were horrible and always got routed and destroyed... And of course, he only has 2 rings because of the severely flukey instance of MJ retiring early.. Hakeem is super-flawed compared to the top big man tier (Wilt/Kareem/Shaq)

In Duncan's case, I question his leadership - he's too quiet/passive - his deficiencies as a leader were covered up by playing in Pop's system, but he was exposed in the 2002 World Championshiops.. He sat by helplessly while Iverson ran the team into the ground... Also, let's be real - he never sniffed the dominant level of Wilt/Kareem/Shaq - and honestly, Shaq destroyed him many times and was obviously much more dominant.... I can't in good conscience put him on the top big man tier - he's CLEARLY a level below that.

Wow, that's a pretty terrible post man.

Hakeem didn't become a truly dominant offensive force until later in his career but he was still a very good post player, averaging 22.9 ppg up until the 1993 season.

And you nitpick Duncan/Hakeem yet don't do so for Shaq or Wilt, who couldn't hit FTs and weren't effective outside of 10 feet? Or the fact that Russell didn't have an offensive game? Or that KAJ was just as quiet as Duncan?

And you would take Baylor, a guy who went 0-8 in the finals over Hakeem or Duncan? :biggums:

[3ball]

:rolleyes: You can still be quiet/passive and be a great leader. Duncan leads by example. There's a reason why guys buy into the Spurs system, and it's not just Pop. How can you not give it your all when you have a guy like Tim Duncan on your side? He's probably the best loved star player by his teammates in history.
:confusedshrug: ... Compared to the top big man tier - Wilt/Kareem/Shaq - Duncan is flawed in 2 ways - passive leadership and more importantly, lesser dominance.. Maybe Wilt wasn't the best leader either, but he made up for it with goat dominance.

And again, I valued the superior sheer basketball ability of all-round wing talents like Kobe, Elgin and Oscar over that of the 2nd tier/flawed bigs (duncan/hakeem).

[ralph_i_el]

I rated all-round wing players like Kobe, Elgin and Oscar over flawed bigs - and I consider Hakeem and Duncan to be flawed, and a level below the Wilt/Kareem/Shaq big man tier.. Kobe, Elgin and Oscar are flawed in their own ways, but I rated the all-round skill of these guys over that of flawed bigs.

And by "flawed", I'm talking about their careers as a whole - in Hakeem's case, he didn't develop into an elite offensive player until about 1993, or more than halfway into his career - before that Hakeem was a perennially LOSING player - his teams were horrible and always got routed and destroyed... And of course, he only has 2 rings because of the severely flukey instance of MJ retiring early.. Hakeem is super-flawed compared to the top big man tier (Wilt/Kareem/Shaq)

In Duncan's case, I question his leadership - he's too quiet/passive - his deficiencies as a leader were covered up by playing in Pop's system, but he was exposed in the 2002 World Championshiops.. He sat by helplessly while Iverson ran the team into the ground... Also, let's be real - he never sniffed the dominant level of Wilt/Kareem/Shaq - and honestly, Shaq destroyed him many times and was obviously much more dominant.... I can't in good conscience put him on the top big man tier - he's CLEARLY a level below that.

Only Russell could've tolerated all the things he tolerated with the grace he did, and having everyone love and respect him the way they did... Russell is the GOAT leader bar none... In today's game, guys would be clamoring to play with him and Russell's brilliance would probably MAKE the career of someone like Pop or Phil Jackson, the same way Duncan and Jordan did.

Keep your stories straight n1gga. You're falling apart

[ralph_i_el]

:confusedshrug: ... Compared to the top big man tier - Wilt/Kareem/Shaq - Duncan is flawed in 2 ways - passive leadership and more importantly, lesser dominance.. Maybe Wilt wasn't the best leader either, but he made up for it with goat dominance.

And again, I valued the superior sheer basketball ability of all-round wing talents like Kobe, Elgin and Oscar over that of the 2nd tier/flawed bigs (duncan/hakeem).

I disagree with your assertion that Duncan is flawed. Dominance is more than just being overwhelmingly talented. Making the right decisions and knowing when to back off is part of playing winning basketball. You always pile on LeBron for being too ball-dominant, so you should love Duncan's willingness to play in a team concept. Have we EVER heard about chemistry issues with Duncan's Spurs? NO, because their star is also the ultimate glue-guy.

GOAT consistency.
Does everything you want from a premier big man
Never won less than 50 games (even in 2 lockout seasons)
5 rings. 3 Finals MVP's. 2 MVP's
All-world defense for 17 years
MVP candidate at age 36
One of less than 10 players to ever lead the league in Offensive win shares and Defensive win shares
Led league in Winshares twice (Kobe never did it ONCE)

Career ORTG-DRTG= 110-95
Kobe = 111-105




What couldn't Duncan do? He's been an elite passer for his position since day-1. Dominant post player AND elbow facilitator. PnR+PnP. Knockdown midrange shooter. Elite defender for his ENTIRE career. Still putting up nearly the same per-minute numbers as his prime....at age 38.
How can you possibly put him below Kobe? You're own logic said "If they can't play in the Spur's system, they aren't good." Pop would have facepalmed a hole in his own head if he had Kobe on his squad.

http://fat.gfycat.com/ThickExcellentEsok.gif

riggity wrecked, son


Garnett over Bron was already inexcusable. Everything bad you can say about Bron's career, you can say twice over for Garnett. And this is coming from someone who would rather have KG than Kobe.

[Cali Syndicate]

Lebrons on the back end of the top ten but he's in that group regardless. When it's all said and done he'll be closer to top 5 if anything. And lol at the notion Baylor, garnett or Moses had better careers than lebron. I can understand if an argument is made for any of those other players but no, just no.

[3ball]

And you would take Baylor, a guy who went 0-8 in the finals ,, :biggums:


Similar to Lebron, Elgin's stats were the best of his day for wing players (and probably better and more dominant than Lebron's tbh)...

However, Elgin faced FAR tougher competitive imbalances - you think Lebron has it tough as he tries to sufficiently collude/stack his team against the West???.. That's NOTHING compared to the competitive imbalance Elgin faced - with Russell's Celtics hoarding all the talent and being so much better than everyone, Elgin faced a far more unfair and disadvantageous competitive environment than Lebron faces ).

Elgin's 0-8 against the unfair competitive environment and not stacking his team > than Lebron going 2/6 by stacking his team against a tough Western Conference, especially when you consider HOW MUCH BETTER ELGIN WAS IN THE FINALS

[fpliii]

How about the Admiral?

[3ball]

Keep your stories straight n1gga. You're falling apart
They're straight - Duncan's talent helped Pop, while Pop's system covered up Duncan's weaknesses as a leader.

But the 2002 World Championships, which were smack-dab in the middle of Duncan's uber-prime, exposed Duncan's weak, passive leadership - he sat by helplessly while IVerson ran the team into the ground.

[ClipperRevival]

Similar to Lebron, Elgin's stats were the best of his day for wing players (and probably better and more dominant than Lebron's tbh)...

However, Elgin faced FAR tougher competitive imbalances - you think Lebron has it tough as he tries to sufficiently collude/stack his team against the West???.. That's NOTHING compared to the competitive imbalance Elgin faced - with Russell's Celtics hoarding all the talent and being so much better than everyone, Elgin faced a far more unfair and disadvantageous competitive environment than Lebron faces ).

Elgin's 0-8 against the unfair competitive environment and not stacking his team > than Lebron going 2/6 by stacking his team against a tough Western Conference, especially when you consider HOW MUCH BETTER ELGIN WAS IN THE FINALS

So you think individual numbers are more important than rings? Where is Adrian Dantley on your list? The guy averaged 29.6 ppg over a 7 year stretch.

And the notion that Russell had a monopoly on talent is overrated. Russell is like 11-0 in game 7s and like 5-0 against Wilt in game 7s. His teams were stretched plenty of times to the limit, they just closed out games.

You are kind of contradicting yourself. Putting Russell at #1 and praising his leadership but claim his teams had a monopoly on talent. Which is it?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I could be way off here, but didn't 3ball claim Better offense > Better Defense?

Wasn't that ALWAYS his shtick?

For all the scoring numbers he lauded MJ for (in comparison to whoever, but especially Scottie Pippen and LeBron), now all of the sudden they don't mean anything vs Russell who is mostly celebrated for his...defense?


:biggums:

[3ball]

LeBron's teams are consistently in the top-5 of offensive efficiency.


The fact that Lebron usually leads a top 5 offense is not noteworthy.. Nash, Kevin Johnson, Karl Malone and many other players have led top 5 offenses as well.. It means nothing..

Otoh, Lebron's stats lack integrity because he achieves them at the expense of teammates - as previously shown, it's a statistical fact that Lebron significantly lowers the PPG and APG of teammates...

With Lebron's production preventing teammates from playing to capacity, the TEAM can't play to capacity and underperforms (2009, 2011, 2014).. His stat accumulation is also helped by employing a stat-friendly, easily-solvable, losing, playground style, rather than the superior, nuanced skill required to achieve stats within an equal-opportunity offense that can actually win.

[ralph_i_el]

They're straight - Duncan's talent helped Pop, while Pop's system covered up Duncan's weaknesses as a leader.

But the 2002 World Championships, which were smack-dab in the middle of Duncan's uber-prime, exposed Duncan's weak, passive leadership - he sat by helplessly while IVerson ran the team into the ground.
:confusedshrug: MJ's talent helped Pjax, while Pjax system covered up MJ's weakness as a chucker.

Duncan has never been considered a weak leader by anyone besides you and your agenda. There is more to leading than jumping around and yelling. Leadership is what you do day-in and day-out to inspire your teammates and get them to buy into your team concept. I know you know this, because you (allegedly) played high level sports.

I've played college water polo on teams led by a "Kobe". A guy that gets fired up all the time, who tries to put the team on his back whenever things get tough. A lot of the time, it hurt our game and hurt moral.

The best team captain we ever had would bust his ass in every practice, trusted our team concept, helped young guys along instead of tearing them down, and didn't go crazy at the drop of a hat. He was a Duncan.

[ralph_i_el]

The fact that Lebron usually leads a top 5 offense is not noteworthy.. Nash, Kevin Johnson, Karl Malone and many other players have led top 5 offenses as well.. It means nothing..

Otoh, Lebron's stats lack integrity because he achieves them at the expense of teammates - as previously shown, it's a statistical fact that Lebron significantly lowers the PPG and APG of teammates...

With Lebron's production preventing teammates from playing to capacity, the TEAM can't play to capacity and underperforms (2009, 2011, 2014).. His stat accumulation is also helped by employing a stat-friendly, easily-solvable, losing, playground style, rather than the superior, nuanced skill required to achieve stats within an equal-opportunity offense that can actually win.

1. They have actually won playing "a stat-friendly, easily-solvable, losing, playground style". In fact, LeBron basically has the exact same playoff winning% as MJ for his career. They've both won about 63% of their playoff games.

2. Who cares if he lowers the PPG and APG of his teammates? He raises the PPG and APG of his TEAM. Obviously other scorers and ball handlers are going to see their stats suffer when they play next to a great scorer and ball handler. Stick MJ on ANY team, and that team's perimeter players are going to have worse stats than they would without him. Playing LeBron lets you have more skill players on the court, play small ball without sacrificing size, and allows you to play guys like Mario Chalmers who wouldn't be able to lead an offense as a PG, but can be a great piece as a shooter.


also, way to pick ONE SENTENCE to argue, when I just dropped a short story of ****ing L's on your head.

https://images.rapgenius.com/f2uu5ythawp3hi475f8s5zx91.171x224x14.gif
^Hold this for me.

[3ball]

So you think individual numbers are more important than rings? Where is Adrian Dantley on your list? The guy averaged 29.6 ppg over a 7 year stretch.


Dantley is an ATG, but Elgin was far superior and actually made the Finals (many times, where he played better than anyone else ever has)...

Elgin's stats are also far superior too.





You're kind of contradicting yourself. Putting Russell at #1 and praising his leadership but claim his teams had a monopoly on talent. Which is it?


Both... The more talent he had on his team, the more leadership he needed to win 11 rings... You guys seem to think that kind of insane consistency and maintaining that standard is like, not a huge deal.

[ralph_i_el]

Dantley is an ATG, but Elgin was far superior and actually made the Finals (many times, where he played better than anyone else ever has)...

Elgin's stats are also far superior too.



Both... The more talent he had on his team, the more leadership he needed to win 11 rings... You guys seem to think that kind of insane consistency and maintaining that standard is like, not a huge deal.

http://reactiongifs.me/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/jerry-seinfeld-kramer-pocker-face-Newman-winner-laugh.gif
http://www.quickmeme.com/img/7f/7f0c383242899d41859c5b84bdf00c1fd5e7c717a147a94920 56cb0bfc6d6ded.jpg

[SHAQisGOAT]

Kareem too low, he's top3.

Russell is top3 but I wouldn't have him at #1.

Mikan not top15, imho.

LeBron gotta be there, he's borderline top10.

Moses too low, should be pretty close to top10.

Wouldn't have Wilt in my top3.

Dr J is top15 in my book.

West should be there.

Hakeem a bit too low, at least with that "setting".

Elgin is not above Julius, Hondo or West, to me... Not to mention Hakeem and Moses.

I always think that Oscar shouldn't be top10, not even above Moses.

[Dbrog]

And by "flawed", I'm talking about their careers as a whole - in Hakeem's case, he didn't develop into an elite offensive player until about 1993, or more than halfway into his career - before that Hakeem was a perennially LOSING player - his teams were horrible and always got routed and destroyed... And of course, he only has 2 rings because of the severely flukey instance of MJ retiring early.. Hakeem is super-flawed compared to the top big man tier (Wilt/Kareem/Shaq)

In Duncan's case, I question his leadership - he's too quiet/passive - his deficiencies as a leader were covered up by playing in Pop's system, but he was exposed in the 2002 World Championshiops.. He sat by helplessly while Iverson ran the team into the ground... Also, let's be real - he never sniffed the dominant level of Wilt/Kareem/Shaq - and honestly, Shaq destroyed him many times and was obviously much more dominant.... I can't in good conscience put him on the top big man tier - he's CLEARLY a level below that.

Questioning 2 of the guys who did the most with the least in NBA history. You never cease to amaze me with your "brain." Btw, both players did more than Jordan ever did in terms of winning at least 1 championship almost single-handedly,

[3ball]

.

Possessions per game/team apg = possessions per assist (higher number means less passing):


2014 Heat: 4.05
2013 Heat: 3.94
2012 Heat: 4.56
2011 Heat: 4.55
____________________
2010 Heat: 4.75
2009 Heat: 4.41
2008 Heat: 4.50

Avg. with LeBron: 4.27
Without LeBron: 4.55
____________________
0.18 improvement with Lebron



2014 Cavs: 4.41
2013 Cavs: 4.47
2012 Cavs: 4.61
2011 Cavs: 4.43
_____________________
2010 Cavs: 4.08
2009 Cavs: 4.37
2008 Cavs: 4.51
2007 Cavs: 4.37
2006 Cavs: 4.72

With LeBron: 4.41
Without LeBron: 4.48
___________________
0.07 improvement



1998 Bulls: 3.74
1997 Bulls: 3.45
1996 Bulls: 3.67
1993 Bulls: 3.56
1992 Bulls: 3.40
1991 Bulls: 3.54
1990 Bulls: 3.65
1989 Bulls: 3.59
1988 Bulls: 3.65
1987 Bulls: 3.67
1985 Bulls: 4.09
____________________
1984 Bulls: 3.91
1983 Bulls: 4.18
1982 Bulls: 3.98
1981 Bulls: 4.28
1980 Bulls: 3.89
1979 Bulls: 3.88
1978 Bulls: 3.93
1977 Bulls: 4.12
1976 Bulls: 4.82
1975 Bulls: 4.45

With MJ: 3.64
Without MJ: 4.14
___________________
0.50 improvement


Source: basketball-reference.com


[I]The Heat's possessions per assist only improved (declined) 0.18 during the Lebron years, and the Cavs didn't improve at all, only 0.07... Otoh, the Bulls improved exactly 0.50 during the MJ years.. They went frorm 4.14 without MJ, to 3.64 with MJ.

Clearly, MJ improved the Bulls passing a lot, while Lebron didn't improve the Cavs at all, and his Heat barely improved..

[Dr.J4ever]

Kareem too low, he's top3.

Russell is top3 but I wouldn't have him at #1.

Mikan not top15, imho.

LeBron gotta be there, he's borderline top10.

Moses too low, should be pretty close to top10.

Wouldn't have Wilt in my top3.

Dr J is top15 in my book.

West should be there.

Hakeem a bit too low, at least with that "setting".

Elgin is not above Julius, Hondo or West, to me... Not to mention Hakeem and Moses.

I always think that Oscar shouldn't be top10, not even above Moses.

Tend to agree with you here mostly.

One thing though that I don't get is people putting Moses over Doc. Yes, I get that Moses was dominant in that 83 season, but when the ENTIRE body of work is examined, when you consider Julius led several teams to titles or title contention, when you consider Moses never played for an elite team until he joined an already elite 76er team built around Julius,Julius trumps Moses. But I love Moses anyway, so I won't quibble.

From what I've heard from people like Charlie Rosen, Elgin was overrated and many have said that about Oscar too. No titles from Elgin, Oscar won finally at the tail end of his career with Kaj.

Never saw them play though so it's hard to discuss players that I personally never saw, at least for me.

[ralph_i_el]

Story of 3Ball's life:
http://collodionbastards.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/curiousether_high.jpg

[aj1987]

what

a

meltdown
Seems like Curry not winning FMVP has rendered you mentally incapacitated like 3ball.

[3ball]

1. They have actually won playing "a stat-friendly, easily-solvable, losing, playground style". In fact, LeBron basically has the exact same playoff winning% as MJ for his career. They've both won about 63% of their playoff games.


Only when he had a sufficiently stacked team (2012, 2013) to overcome his suboptimal play - even in the years they won, the stats show the Heat were worse when Wade and Lebron were on the floor together - but the team simply had sufficient talent to overcome the suboptimal chemistry that Lebron's game fosters....





In fact, LeBron basically has the exact same playoff winning% as MJ for his career. They've both won about 63% of their playoff games.


Oh my god - we already know that Lebron has played far worse competition - specifically, he's defeated ONE THIRD as many 50-win teams in the playoffs:

https://a.thumbs.redditmedia.com/9lezeXPnksBqScKND55F1Ewuenk1HdMDpsFC_vpawj8.jpg


You already knew this ^^^^^... AND you know Lebron's Finals record is abysmal... So why brag about Lebron's playoff win percentage being the same as MJ's when you know he played worse comp and sucked in the Finals???... The only reason is BIAS... Sheer bias and ignoring facts.





2. Stick MJ on ANY team, and that team's perimeter players are going to have worse stats than they would without him.


Pippen's stats were THE SAME alongside MJ - do I really have to post the EXACT stats of Pippen alongside MJ, so we can see that Pippens stats are nearly the same, while Wade, Bosh and Love's were significantly worse alongside Lebron??... Bosh and Wade took nearly 10 ppg declines in their ppg.. You're completely delusional on this one.

Also, Lebron doesn't materially increase the assist frequency of the team as the post above shows.. Otoh, MJ significantly increase the assist frequency of his team.. So stop lying and making stuff up - verify your stats before you post, otherwise, you waste the forum's time.

[ralph_i_el]

.

Possessions per game/team apg = possessions per assist (higher number means less passing):


2014 Heat: 4.05
2013 Heat: 3.94
2012 Heat: 4.56
2011 Heat: 4.55
____________________
2010 Heat: 4.75
2009 Heat: 4.41
2008 Heat: 4.50

Avg. with LeBron: 4.27
Without LeBron: 4.55
____________________
0.18 improvement with Lebron



2014 Cavs: 4.41
2013 Cavs: 4.47
2012 Cavs: 4.61
2011 Cavs: 4.43
_____________________
2010 Cavs: 4.08
2009 Cavs: 4.37
2008 Cavs: 4.51
2007 Cavs: 4.37
2006 Cavs: 4.72

With LeBron: 4.41
Without LeBron: 4.48
___________________
0.07 improvement



1998 Bulls: 3.74
1997 Bulls: 3.45
1996 Bulls: 3.67
1993 Bulls: 3.56
1992 Bulls: 3.40
1991 Bulls: 3.54
1990 Bulls: 3.65
1989 Bulls: 3.59
1988 Bulls: 3.65
1987 Bulls: 3.67
1985 Bulls: 4.09
____________________
1984 Bulls: 3.91
1983 Bulls: 4.18
1982 Bulls: 3.98
1981 Bulls: 4.28
1980 Bulls: 3.89
1979 Bulls: 3.88
1978 Bulls: 3.93
1977 Bulls: 4.12
1976 Bulls: 4.82
1975 Bulls: 4.45

With MJ: 3.64
Without MJ: 4.14
___________________
0.50 improvement


Source: basketball-reference.com


[I]The Heat's possessions per assist only improved (declined) 0.18 during the Lebron years, and the Cavs didn't improve at all, only 0.07... Otoh, the Bulls improved exactly 0.50 during the MJ years.. They went frorm 4.14 without MJ, to 3.64 with MJ.

Clearly, MJ improved the Bulls passing a lot, while Lebron didn't improve the Cavs at all, and his Heat barely improved..


All this says is that the Bulls were horseshit before MJ. I notice you didn't post the stats for the Cavs Pre-LeBron :rolleyes:

And LeBron's teams DID improve in your metric :roll: so you're wrong on your recent sticking point.

[HOoopCityJones]

All this says is that the Bulls were horseshit before MJ. I notice you didn't post the stats for the Cavs Pre-LeBron :rolleyes:

And LeBron's teams DID improve in your metric :roll: so you're wrong on your recent sticking point.


Bro, he's bodybagging you.

[ralph_i_el]

Pippen's stats were THE SAME alongside MJ - do I really have to post the EXACT stats of Pippen alongside MJ, so we can see that Pippens stats are nearly the same, while Wade, Bosh and Love's were significantly worse alongside Lebron??... Bosh and Wade took nearly 10 ppg declines in their ppg.. You're completely delusional on this one.

Also, Lebron doesn't materially increase the assist frequency of the team as the post above shows.. Otoh, MJ significantly increase the assist frequency of his team.. So stop lying and making stuff up - verify your stats before you post, otherwise, you waste the forum's time.

1. Your post shows that LeBron DOES materially increase assist frequency. Just not much vs. the recent Cavs teams. You didn't post stats for the Cavs before LeBron entered the league. I'm assuming you calculated them and they didn't fit your agenda.

The season of MJ's first retirement Pippen scored 3.4 more PPG. He posted a career low Drtg. Career high USG%. Career high PER. Significant improvement in TS% compared to '92-93


Wade had a 10ppg decline....because he was playing alongside MARIO CHALMERS AND MICHAEL BEASLY INSTEAD OF BRON AND BOSH. OBVIOUSLY HIS USG% WAS GOING TO BE WAY HIGHER AS THE ONLY GOOD SCORER ON HIS ENTIRE SQUAD.


HOLD THESE L'S

[3ball]

One thing though that I don't get is people putting Moses over Doc.


The only wings worthy of going AGAINST the notion that bigs are always more valuable is the very top tier of wings - MJ, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Oscar, Elgin... Only these guys are worthy of going against the notion that bigs are always better.

Also, I need to be honest here - compared to the wings listed above, Dr. J didn't have good offensive moves - he scored with his huge hands/tremendous touch and superior athleticism... But his moves were actually weak... It sounds blasphemous about Dr. J, but it's true.. His moves couldn't hold a candle to Elgin, and obviously, he couldn't pass or shoot like Oscar... This is all true - go look at his game - his moves are basic and his handle GARBAGE... :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

:facepalm

[3ball]

One thing though that I don't get is people putting Moses over Doc.


The only wings worthy of going AGAINST the notion that bigs are always more valuable is the very top tier of wings - MJ, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Oscar, Elgin... Only these guys are worthy of going against the notion that bigs are always better.

Also, I need to be honest here - compared to the wings listed above, Dr. J didn't have good offensive moves - he scored with his huge hands/tremendous touch and superior athleticism... But his moves were actually weak... It sounds blasphemous about Dr. J, but it's true.. His moves couldn't hold a candle to Elgin, and obviously, he couldn't rebound like Elgin... and he couldn't pass or shoot like Oscar... This is all true - go look at his game - his moves are basic and his handle garbage.. :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

The season of MJ's first retirement Pippen scored 3.4 more PPG.

Wade had a 10ppg decline....because he was playing alongside MARIO CHALMERS AND MICHAEL BEASLY INSTEAD OF BRON AND BOSH.


Pippen's averages from 1992:

21.0/7.7/7.0


Pippen's averages in 1994:

22.0/8.7/5.6


Now do you want to compare Wade, Love and Bosh's best years with and without Lebron?

I didn't think so.. Lebron craters the stats of his teammates, while MJ doesn't.

[SHAQisGOAT]

The only wings worthy of going AGAINST the notion that bigs are always more valuable is the very top tier of wings - MJ, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Oscar, Elgin... Only these guys are worthy of going against the notion that bigs are always better.

Also, I need to be honest here - compared to the wings listed above, Dr. J didn't have good offensive moves - he scored with his huge hands/tremendous touch and superior athleticism... But his moves were actually weak... It sounds blasphemous about Dr. J, but it's true.. His moves couldn't hold a candle to Elgin, and obviously, he couldn't rebound like Elgin... and he couldn't pass or shoot like Oscar... This is all true - go look at his game - his moves are basic and his handle garbage.. :confusedshrug:

That's bullshit, as far as I'm concerned... I've seen plenty from Erving and he had pretty nice handles, while - from close to the paint - being what you'd call a shot-creator off the dribble, with a good stepack J.
Not saying he was better or even as good as Baylor at that, but to say shit like "his moves couldn't hold a candle to Elgin" is dumb af.

When it comes to rebounding, Elgin was better, yea, but Julius was not far behind... Baylor's estimated career TRB% is 13.9, peaking at over over 17; Erving's career is 11.9, peaking at 16.4 early on in the ABA.
The Dr was probably even a better offensive rebounder.

Plus, Julius is one of the GOAT off-ball defenders... Definitely a more impactful defensive player than Baylor, tbh.

And ofc that he couldn't pass like Oscar, not even a tier below or something, Big O is one of the GOAT PG's/passers... That doesn't mean that the Dr wasn't a solid passer though, because he was, and on the same level as Baylor

All in all, their peak/prime as overall players is very comparable, can go either way... Longevity is about the same too, while Erving has one MVP (Elgin does not), a NBA title (Elgin also does not), and I'm not even bringing up his ABA resume, which gotta count for something too (not as much though).
And you cannot say that Erving played in a weak era/conference, quite the contrary, while they both had some great teammates at one time or another.

[ClipperRevival]

The only wings worthy of going AGAINST the notion that bigs are always more valuable is the very top tier of wings - MJ, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Oscar, Elgin... Only these guys are worthy of going against the notion that bigs are always better.

Also, I need to be honest here - compared to the wings listed above, Dr. J didn't have good offensive moves - he scored with his huge hands/tremendous touch and superior athleticism... But his moves were actually weak... It sounds blasphemous about Dr. J, but it's true.. His moves couldn't hold a candle to Elgin, and obviously, he couldn't rebound like Elgin... and he couldn't pass or shoot like Oscar... This is all true - go look at his game - his moves are basic and his handle garbage.. :confusedshrug:

I don't get your logic for Elgin. You bash Bron for not playing an optimal style (which isn't true) but what do you call Elgin's? 0-8 in the finals? He didn't win. You can't blame it ALL on the level of comp. At some point, if you are a transcendent talent, you have to win.

Just makes no sense to have a guy like Elgin that high. Unless if you are being biased. A guy with great individual numbers but no rings and no mvps. A lot of other greats fit that bill. To be on the top 10-15 list, you need championships AND individual dominance.

[3ball]

That's bullshit, as far as I'm concerned... I've seen plenty from Erving and he had pretty nice handles, while - from close to the paint - being what you'd call a shot-creator off the dribble, with a good stepack J.
Not saying he was better or even as good as Baylor at that, but to say shit like "his moves couldn't hold a candle to Elgin" is dumb af.

When it comes to rebounding, Elgin was better, yea, but Julius was not far behind... Baylor's estimated career TRB% is 13.9, peaking at over over 17; Erving's career is 11.9, peaking at 16.4 early on in the ABA.
The Dr was probably even a better offensive rebounder.

Plus, Julius is one of the GOAT off-ball defenders... Definitely a more impactful defensive player than Baylor, tbh.

And ofc that he couldn't pass like Oscar, not even a tier below or something, Big O is one of the GOAT PG's/passers... That doesn't mean that the Dr wasn't a solid passer though, because he was, and on the same level as Bayloe.

All in all, their peak/prime as overall players is very comparable, can go either way... Longevity is about the same too, while Erving has one MVP (Elgin does not), a NBA title (Elgin also does not), and I'm not even bringing up his ABA resume, which gotta count for something too (not as much though).
And you cannot say that Erving played in a weak era/conference, quite the contrary, while they both had some great teammates at one time or another.

I agree with all this - Dr. J's moves aren't "garbage" compared to Elgin's as I originally said, but they're clearly inferior to Elgin's..

Regardless, I think a strong case can be made for both Elgin and Oscar over Dr. J, which would put Dr. J out of the top 15.

And comparing Elgin to Lebron - they are very similar in that they both dominate statistically but have horrible Finals records.

But Elgin went to more Finals, and he simply faced a much tougher competitive environment - Elgin never colluded/stacked his team, and he faced Russell's Celtics, who are the most dominant team of all time by FAR.. Therefore, due to facing far superior competition and not stacking his team, Elgin's 0/8 > Lebron's 2/6.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Tend to agree with you here mostly.

One thing though that I don't get is people putting Moses over Doc. Yes, I get that Moses was dominant in that 83 season, but when the ENTIRE body of work is examined, when you consider Julius led several teams to titles or title contention, when you consider Moses never played for an elite team until he joined an already elite 76er team built around Julius,Julius trumps Moses. But I love Moses anyway, so I won't quibble.


They're pretty close and I won't argue against Erving above, but I definitely rank Moses higher.
I don't tend to give ABA's resume as much weight as NBA's though, while still accounting for it ofc.

Malone spent all of his career in the NBA but two years, he won his MVP's right after the merger (3 of them), and before he went to the 76ers he had already led a team to the NBA Finals in great fashion, unexpectedly to the vast majority.

He has two more NBA MVP's than Julius, more longevity, and while it's close Moses definitely was the 76ers best player on their title run, on Erving's only NBA ring. Plus, he more than proved his worth before joining Philly (just like the Doc did before it).

[3ball]

I don't get your logic for Elgin. You bash Bron for not playing an optimal style (which isn't true) but what do you call Elgin's? 0-8 in the finals?

Just makes no sense to have a guy like Elgin that high.... no rings and no mvps.


Elgin never colluded/stacked his team, and he faced Russell's Celtics, who are the most dominant team of all time by FAR.. Meanwhile, Lebron gets to defeat 1/3 of the 50 win teams of his peers Kobe and MJ...

Therefore, due to facing far superior competition and not stacking/colluding his team, Elgin's 0/8 > Lebron's 2/6.

Do you realize that if Lebron hadn't colluded/team-hopped, he probably has zero rings and exactly 1 Finals appearance - the factual reality is that ALL of Lebron's championships and 5 Finals appearances are due to team-hopping.. So how can I respect his 2/6 more than Elgin's 0/8?.. Only if I was biased..

Also, it's a massive drawback that Lebron's midrange and 1-on-1 ability is below-average.. It means Lebron can't shoot well at high volume, command double-teams, or be as good in previous eras that didn't have the 3-pointers needed for drive-and-kick.
.

[LikeABosh]

Pippen's averages from 1992:

21.0/7.7/7.0


Pippen's averages in 1994:

22.0/8.7/5.6


Now do you want to compare Wade, Love and Bosh's best years with and without Lebron?

I didn't think so.. Lebron craters the stats of his teammates, while MJ doesn't.
Wade averages in 9-10':
26.6/4.8/6.5 .476 fg shooting

Wade averages in 10-11'
25.5/6.4/4.6 .500 fg shooting

Irving averages in 13-14':
20.8/3.6/6.1 .430 fg shooting

Irving averages in 14-15':
21.7/3.2/5.2 .468 fg shooting

Bosh and Love went from being the main guy on loser teams to being the 3rd option, obviously production will drop you dipshit

[SHAQisGOAT]

I agree with all this - Dr. J's moves aren't "garbage" compared to Elgin's as I originally said, but they're clearly inferior to Elgin's..

Regardless, I think a strong case can be made for both Elgin and Oscar over Dr. J, which would put Dr. J out of the top 15.

And comparing Elgin to Lebron - they are very similar in that they both dominate statistically but have horrible Finals records.

But Elgin went to more Finals, and he simply faced a much tougher competitive environment - Elgin never colluded/stacked his team, and he faced Russell's Celtics, who are the most dominant team of all time by FAR.. Therefore, due to facing far superior competition and not stacking his team, Elgin's 0/8 > Lebron's 2/6.

Not saying I can't see Elgin above Erving in any way but definitely not on my list.

Oscar yea, I think I'd rank him above Doc, but I won't argue much against the contrary.

Julius is definitely in the top15 for me though... And on the all-time list I'd rank Hondo above Baylor, even if thinking Elgin has an edge when discussing peak play.

[ClipperRevival]

Elgin never colluded/stacked his team, and he faced Russell's Celtics, who are the most dominant team of all time by FAR.. Meanwhile, Lebron gets to defeat 1/3 of the 50 win teams of his peers Kobe and MJ...

Therefore, due to facing far superior competition and not stacking/colluding his team, Elgin's 0/8 > Lebron's 2/6.

Do you realize that if Lebron hadn't colluded/team-hopped, he probably has zero rings and exactly 1 Finals appearance - the factual reality is that ALL of Lebron's championships and 5 Finals appearances are due to team-hopping.. So how can I respect his 2/6 more than Elgin's 0/8?.. Only if I was biased..

Also, it's a massive drawback that Lebron's midrange and 1-on-1 ability is below-average.. It means Lebron can't shoot well at high volume, command double-teams, or be as good in previous eras that didn't have the 3-pointers needed for drive-and-kick.
.

Hogwash. Baylor played with West almost his entire career. And from 1969 on, he had Wilt and West to work with. He won ZERO rings. 0-8 in the finals. And the Lakers won a ring the same year Baylor retired.

But of course, it's always someone else's fault when an all time great doesn't win.

[aj1987]

Elgin never colluded/stacked his team, and he faced Russell's Celtics, who are the most dominant team of all time by FAR.. Therefore, due to facing far superior competition and not stacking/colluding his team, Elgin's 0/8 > Lebron's 2/6.

Do you realize that if Lebron hadn't colluded/team-hopped, he probably has zero rings and exactly 1 Finals appearance - the factual reality is that ALL of Lebron's championships and 5 Finals appearances are due to team-hopping.. How can I respect his 2/6 more than Elgin's 0/8?.. Only if I was biased.
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

You do know that Baylor played with West, right? You do know that he also played with Wilt, right?

West averaged 31/7/6 in the PO's with Elgin and without Wilt, BTW.

[3ball]

Wade averages in 9-10':
26.6/4.8/6.5

Wade averages in 10-11'
25.5/6.4/4.6



Look at Wade's assists - they declined by 1/3 - Lebron significantly lowers the APG and assist % of all his teammates:


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)


Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), .8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'): 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)
Irving apg and assist % with... Lebron (2015):... 5.2, 25.0%


Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN: 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:. 2.2, 10.7%

Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron: 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron: 4.1, 20.1%


Lebron's presence as an extra point guard results in a concentration of playmaking responsibilities among the 2 point guards, which significantly reduces the APG of the remaining teammates, while increasing their assisted rates - this proves Lebron's presence as an extra point guard turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers, thus preventing the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that the Mavs, Spurs, Warriors, and 90's Bulls used (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s), where all 5 guys share the playmaking duties.

Since Lebron lowers his teammates APG, thus preventing equal-opportunity and the best brand of basketball, his teams are susceptible to being upset by equal or less-talented opponents that play a a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..

[ralph_i_el]

Pippen's averages from 1992:

21.0/7.7/7.0


Pippen's averages in 1994:

22.0/8.7/5.6


Now do you want to compare Wade, Love and Bosh's best years with and without Lebron?

I didn't think so.. Lebron craters the stats of his teammates, while MJ doesn't.

We don't know what kind of stats Pippen would put up if he had his own team for the majority of his prime.

And you aren't including the season before MJ's first retirement, where Pippen put up 18.6ppg, then a career high 22ppg without MJ

Bosh and Wade both got to put up 1st option stats on teams with no other options. That's why their counting stats took a hit when they joined together with LeBron. What did you expect was going to happen when 3 career 1st options played together? Brons counting stats took a dip too.

[feyki]

Kareem too low, he's top3.

Russell is top3 but I wouldn't have him at #1.

Mikan not top15, imho.

LeBron gotta be there, he's borderline top10.

Moses too low, should be pretty close to top10.

Wouldn't have Wilt in my top3.

Dr J is top15 in my book.

West should be there.

Hakeem a bit too low, at least with that "setting".

Elgin is not above Julius, Hondo or West, to me... Not to mention Hakeem and Moses.

I always think that Oscar shouldn't be top10, not even above Moses.


Hondo > Elgin ? No way .

Why Mikan always gets underrated? Adjusted the eras(efg% , pace , rib% , ast% ) and he's level 33-12-4 on %52 Fg , %58 Ts at him prime .

http://ultraimg.com/images/c61237e6f462.png

[LikeABosh]

Look at Wade's assists - they declined by 1/3 - Lebron significantly lowers the APG and assist % of all his teammates:


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)


Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), .8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'): 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)
Irving apg and assist % with... Lebron (2015):... 5.2, 25.0%


Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN: 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:. 2.2, 10.7%

Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron: 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron: 4.1, 20.1%


Lebron's presence as an extra point guard results in a concentration of playmaking responsibilities among the 2 point guards, which significantly reduces the APG of the remaining teammates, while increasing their assisted rates - this proves Lebron's presence as an extra point guard turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers, thus preventing the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that the Mavs, Spurs, Warriors, and 90's Bulls used (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s), where all 5 guys share the playmaking duties.

Since Lebron lowers his teammates APG, thus preventing equal-opportunity and the best brand of basketball, his teams are susceptible to being upset by equal or less-talented opponents that play a a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..
You said "Lebron craters the stats of teammates". I proved that you are outright wrong as well as taking statistics out of context so now you're changing the subject. **** off

[3ball]

Hogwash. Baylor played with West almost his entire career. And from 1969 on, he had Wilt and West to work with. He won ZERO rings. 0-8 in the finals. And the Lakers won a ring the same year Baylor retired.


You know what's hogwash?... You guys ignoring that fact that Lebron team-hopped to play with the league's very best talent.

Elgin's struggles with Jerry West sound a lot like Lebron team-hopping but only going 2/5... If Elgin had colluded to play with superior talent, he could've been 2/8 I'm sure.

Also, Elgin and West were playing literally the most dominant team in history, while Lebron only had to defeat 1/3 as many 50-win teams as his peers... I'm pretty sure Elgin didn't have it so easy compared to his peers.
.

[ClipperRevival]

You know what's hogwash?... You guys ignoring that fact that Lebron team-hopped to play with the league's very best talent.

Elgin's struggles with Jerry West sound a lot like Lebron team-hopping but only going 2/5... If Elgin had colluded to play with superior talent, he could've been 2/8 I'm sure.

Also, Elgin and West were playing literally the most dominant team in history, while Lebron only had to defeat 1/3 of the 50-win teams of his peers... I'm pretty sure Elgin didn't have it so easy compared to his peers.
.

To me, Elgin was more of a great scorer than a great player who elevated the level of his teammates. Case in point, look at the best 7 year stretch for both him and Dantley.

Baylor: 30.2 ppg, 24.5 PER
Dantley: 29.6 ppg, 24.1 PER

But yeah, keep giving the guy excuses for losing

[3ball]

You said "Lebron craters the stats of teammates".


Lebron totally craters the stats of his teammates.. Love, Bosh and Wade all had their stats go down SIGNIFICANTLY alongside Lebron - this is statistical fact... Do you want me to post their averages with and without Lebron??... The difference is enormous.

Otoh, Horace and Scottie's stats barely changed when MJ left, even though they were promoted from 2nd to 1st option like Pippen, and 3rd to 2nd option like Horace.. Apparently, they were already playing to capacity alongside MJ.





taking statistics out of context so now you're changing the subject. **** off


Accept the facts, even if you don't like them:

Lebron's presence as an extra point guard results in a concentration of playmaking responsibilities among the 2 point guards.. This monopolization of the playmaking significantly reduces the APG of remaining teammates, while increasing their assisted rates - this proves Lebron's presence as an extra point guard turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers, thus preventing the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that the Mavs, Spurs, Warriors, and 90's Bulls used (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s), where all 5 guys share the playmaking duties.

Since Lebron lowers his teammates APG, thus preventing equal-opportunity and the best brand of basketball, his teams are susceptible to being upset by equal or less-talented opponents that play a a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..
.

[LikeABosh]

Lebron totally craters the stats of his teammates.. Love, Bosh and Wade all had their stats go down SIGNIFICANTLY alongside Lebron - this is statistical fact... Do you want me to post their averages with and without Lebron??... The difference is enormous.


I JUST proved you wrong retard.

Wade averages in 9-10':
26.6/4.8/6.5

Wade averages in 10-11'
25.5/6.4/4.6

[GIF REACTION]

Maybach Music

[3ball]

To me, Elgin was more of a great scorer than a great player who elevated the level of his teammates. Case in point, look at the best 7 year stretch for both him and Dantley.

Baylor: 30.2 ppg, 24.5 PER
Dantley: 29.6 ppg, 24.1 PER

But yeah, keep giving the guy excuses for losing
ha - Elgin was far better than Dantley - imagine Dantley WITH handles and 3 times as many rebounds.

That's elgin.

Of course, you ignored my point about Lebron's team-hopping - if he never team-hops, he would have 1 Finals appearance and zero rings - ALL his rings are due to team-hopping - this is a fact.. The "Decision" will never be forgotten.. That's actually the most enduring legacy of Lebron's career - I swear - 25 years from now, the "Decision" will be the most notable, impactful aspect of Lebron's career.. But keep ignoring it genius.. :rolleyes:

Otoh, Elgin and West never team-hopped and faced literally the most dominant team in history... This is a stark contrast to Lebron team-hopping and only needing to defeat 1/3 of the 50-win teams of his peers... I'm pretty sure Elgin didn't have it so easy compared to his peers.. He still made 8 Finals though despite facing better comp... That's more than Lebron.
.

[LikeABosh]

Lebron totally craters the stats of his teammates.. Love, Bosh and Wade all had their stats go down SIGNIFICANTLY alongside Lebron - this is statistical fact... Do you want me to post their averages with and without Lebron??... The difference is enormous.

Otoh, Horace and Scottie's stats barely changed when MJ left, even though they were promoted from 2nd to 1st option like Pippen, and 3rd to 2nd option like Horace.. Apparently, they were already playing to capacity alongside MJ.



Accept the facts, even if you don't like them:

Lebron's presence as an extra point guard results in a concentration of playmaking responsibilities among the 2 point guards.. This monopolization of the playmaking significantly reduces the APG of remaining teammates, while increasing their assisted rates - this proves Lebron's presence as an extra point guard turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers, thus preventing the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that the Mavs, Spurs, Warriors, and 90's Bulls used (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s), where all 5 guys share the playmaking duties.

Since Lebron lowers his teammates APG, thus preventing equal-opportunity and the best brand of basketball, his teams are susceptible to being upset by equal or less-talented opponents that play a a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..
.
Bulls APG in 92-93': 26.0 at a pace of 92.5

Bulls APG in 93-94' 25.6 at a pace of 91.9.

I thought it was the magic of Jordan who created all these assists? Or maybe the equal opportunity offense was the product of the system the Bulls ran

[ClipperRevival]

ha - Elgin was far better than Dantley - imagine Dantley WITH handles and 3 times as many rebounds.

That's elgin.

Of course, you ignored my point about Lebron's team-hopping - if he never team-hops, he would have 1 Finals appearance and zero rings - ALL his rings are due to team-hopping - this is a fact.. The "Decision" will never be forgotten.. That's actually the most enduring legacy of Lebron's career - I swear - 25 years from now, the "Decision" will be the most notable, impactful aspect of Lebron's career.. But keep ignoring it genius.. :rolleyes:

Otoh, Elgin and West played literally the most dominant team in history... This is a stark contrast to Lebron team-hopping and only needing to defeat 1/3 of the 50-win teams of his peers... I'm pretty sure Elgin didn't have it so easy compared to his peers.

Of course Elgin was superior but my point was to show that that's the type of player I view Elgin to be. A great scorer, not a great overall player who made his teammates better.

But it's not about that is it? It's about your obsession with Bron for some reason. It's always about Bron for you.

[3ball]

Of course Elgin was superior but my point was to show that that's the type of player I view Elgin to be. A great scorer, not a great overall player who made his teammates better.

But it's not about that is it? It's about your obsession with Bron for some reason. It's always about Bron for you.
I understand your point on Elgin - but you're wrong - Elgin was a ballhandling playmaker... There's an entire video about how much of an underrated passer he was.. Otoh, Dantley was a truly one-dimensional player, albiet one of the best triple-threat/1-on-1 players the game's ever seen... But even in this area, he's still behind Elgin.

Regarding Lebron - I've merely pointed out the most obvious reasons why someone could rank Elgin over Lebron.. Elgin played FAR superior competition and never team-hopped, yet he made more Finals with better stats, and he performed far better IN those Finals than Lebron.

Tbh, I don't respect players like Lebron who don't have good mid-range or 1-on-1 games - it's too much of a drawback - it means the player can't shoot well at high volume, command double-teams, or be as good in previous eras that didn't have the 3-pointers needed for drive-and-kick.

.

[ClipperRevival]

I understand your point on Elgin - but you're wrong - Elgin was a ballhandling playmaker... There's an entire video about how much of an underrated passer he was.. Otoh, Dantley was a truly one-dimensional player, albiet one of the best triple-threat/1-on-1 players the game's ever seen... But even in this area, he's still behind Elgin.

Regarding Lebron - I've merely pointed out the most obvious reasons why someone could rank Elgin over Lebron.. Elgin played FAR superior competition and never team-hopped, yet he made more Finals with better stats, and he performed far better IN those Finals than Lebron.

Tbh, I don't respect players like Lebron who don't have good mid-range or 1-on-1 games - it's too much of a drawback - it means the player can't shoot well at high volume, command double-teams, or be as good in previous eras that didn't have the 3-pointers needed for drive-and-kick.


Both averaged 26.4 ppg in the finals.

Bron is 2/6. Baylor is 0/8.

Brons PER is 27.4 while Baylor PER is 21.9 for the playoffs.

Bron has 2 fmvp. Baylor has 0.

How exactly was Baylor a far better finals performer? Right, your only answer is "team hopping" and "level of comp."

[rmt]

I gave all players the "Spurs Test".

If the player would prevent and/or couldn't fit into a Spurs-type, cutting edge, equal-opportunity offense, then they didn't rate in my book.

If you can't fit into a Spurs-type, advanced strategy offense, then you can't play the best brand of basketball - you can't play good basketball..

What am i missing

How ironic that you gave all players the "Spurs Test" yet the player who has been the backbone/foundation of the Spurs doesn't rate top 10 on your list. If that's your test/way of rating, Duncan should be top 4 - after all, he is the epitome of Spurs basketball.

[3ball]

How ironic that you gave all players the "Spurs Test" yet the player who has been the backbone/foundation of the Spurs doesn't rate top 10 on your list. If that's your test/way of rating, Duncan should be top 4.
The "Spurs Test" is just one criteria...

But yeah, if you fail that test, then your game prevents optimal, cutting-edge strategy, which means you aren't CAPABLE of playing good basketball and are out of the top 15.. Of course, some teams overcome suboptimal play and still win a couple rings, due to the sheer magnitude talent on the team (ahem, 2012 and 2013).

Tbh, I don't respect players like Lebron who don't have good mid-range or 1-on-1 games - it's too much of a drawback - it means the player can't shoot well at high volume, command double-teams, or be as good in previous eras that didn't have the 3-pointers needed for drive-and-kick.

[3ball]

Both averaged 26.4 ppg in the finals.


Elgin averaged 13.7 rebounds and his peak Finals performance was the best ever, which is a far cry from Lebron's peak Finals performance (where many other guys have played just as well).
.

[3ball]

Bron is 2/6. Baylor is 0/8... Right, your only argument is "team hopping" and "level of comp."



http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-06-2015/MNBWOn.gif


The remarkable thing is that since you don't account for level of competition, you must be SURPRISED when Lebron loses in the Finals.

[3ball]

:facepalm .. fine

[3ball]

.
Okay, a couple posters changed my mind - here's revised, OBJECTIVE top 15:


MJ
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Kareem
Shaq
Russell
Duncan
Hakeem
Kobe
Oscar
Elgin
Mikan
Garnett
Moses


Lebron still doesn't make it for me.. He fails the "Spurs Test" because his game doesn't fit into a Spurs/Warriors-like, equal-opportunity offense, which means he isn't capable of the best brand of basketball... Of course, some teams overcome suboptimal play and still win a couple rings, due to the sheer magnitude talent on the team (i.e 2012 and 2013).

Furthermore, Lebron's poor 1-on-1 and midrange efficiency is too much of a drawback for ANY player to make the top 15.. It means they don't require a double team to prevent high shot volume, since their efficiency can't handle the additional 1-on-1 and midrange required of high volume shooters.. Lebron's poor midrange and 1-on-1 efficiency also indicates that he wouldn't be as good in previous eras, since those were the main options remaining in the absence of 3-point shooting and resulting drive-and-kick.
.

[warriorfan]

.
Okay, a couple posters changed my mind - here's revised, OBJECTIVE top 15:


MJ
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Kareem
Shaq
Russell
Duncan
Hakeem
Kobe
Oscar
Elgin
Mikan
Garnett
Moses


Lebron still doesn't make it for me.. He fails the "Spurs Test" because his game doesn't fit into a Spurs/Warriors-like, equal-opportunity offense, which means he isn't capable of the best brand of basketball... Of course, some teams overcome suboptimal play and still win a couple rings, due to the sheer magnitude talent on the team (i.e 2012 and 2013).

Furthermore, Lebron's poor 1-on-1 and midrange efficiency is too much of a drawback for ANY player to make the top 15.. It means they don't require a double team to prevent high shot volume, since their efficiency can't handle the additional 1-on-1 and midrange required of high volume shooters.. Lebron's poor midrange and 1-on-1 efficiency also indicates that he wouldn't be as good in previous eras, since those were the main options remaining in the absence of 3-point shooting and the resulting drive-and-kick.

I like this list better than your first. Good revisions.

[ralph_i_el]

.
Okay, a couple posters changed my mind - here's revised, OBJECTIVE top 15:


MJ
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Kareem
Shaq
Russell
Duncan
Hakeem
Kobe
Oscar
Elgin
Mikan
Garnett
Moses


Lebron still doesn't make it for me.. He fails the "Spurs Test" because his game doesn't fit into a Spurs/Warriors-like, equal-opportunity offense, which means he isn't capable of the best brand of basketball... Of course, some teams overcome suboptimal play and still win a couple rings, due to the sheer magnitude talent on the team (i.e 2012 and 2013).

Furthermore, Lebron's poor 1-on-1 and midrange efficiency is too much of a drawback for ANY player to make the top 15.. It means they don't require a double team to prevent high shot volume, since their efficiency can't handle the additional 1-on-1 and midrange required of high volume shooters.. Lebron's poor midrange and 1-on-1 efficiency also indicates that he wouldn't be as good in previous eras, since those were the main options remaining in the absence of 3-point shooting and resulting drive-and-kick.
.

This list is much better, but Kobe still fails "The Spurs test", Oscar played in a weak era, Garnett didn't do shit in Minny, etc etc. LeBron belongs on your list.

[JT123]

Gotta give it to 3ball for his ability to troll multiple posters by doing nothing more than copy and pasting the same paragraphs over and over. :lol

[3ball]

This list is much better, but Kobe still fails "The Spurs test", Oscar played in a weak era, Garnett didn't do shit in Minny, etc etc. LeBron belongs on your list.


Oscar averaged 30.3/9.9/9.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/roberos01.html#1962-1966-sum:playoffs_per_game) in 1962-1966 playoffs (5 seasons) and can't even make the Finals, while Lebron makes the Finals by averaging 23.7/8.4/5.9 in 2011 playoffs and 27.1/7.1/4.8 in 2014 playoffs... But you think OSCAR'S era was the weak era?


Kobe passes the Spurs test - he has an elite off-ball game - that's the main requirement, because the Spurs offense is based on "1.5 seconds"... That's how long players are supposed to hold the ball in that offense.. I can get the youtube clip where the players say this if you want... Accordingly, Lebron's high time-of-possession, ball-dominant style fails the test, but Kobe's elite off-ball ability allows him to pass..

Btw, remember, Lebron is a below-average midrange and 1--on-1 player, so he can't shoot well at high volume, doesn't command double-teams, and wouldn't be as good in previous eras that didn't have the 3-pointers needed for drive-and-kick.. Otoh, Kobe was a great midrange and 1-on-1 player, so he doesn't have these deal-breaking indictments on his game.


Garnett didn't do shit in Minny, but Lebron didn't do shit in Cleveland either.. He made the 2007 Finals in a weak East - the #1 seed Detroit only won 53 games, which is the lowest ever for a 1 seed, while Lebron's Cavs won 50 games and were the #2 seed.. It wasn't an upset, and Lebron only needed to average 25 ppg on 44% to beat them.. Do you know how many guys have done that and WAY better obviously?
.

[LBJFTW]

I'm a big Lebron fan but he's not a top 15 player. The only person at ESPN who thinks so is windhorst.

[ralph_i_el]

Oscar averaged 30.3/9.9/9.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/roberos01.html#1962-1966-sum:playoffs_per_game) in 1962-1966 playoffs (5 seasons) and can't even make the Finals, while Lebron makes the Finals by averaging 23.7/8.4/5.9 in 2011 playoffs and 27.1/7.1/4.8 in 2014 playoffs... But you think OSCAR'S era was the weak era?


Kobe passes the Spurs test - he has an elite off-ball game - that's the main requirement, because the Spurs offense is based on "1.5 seconds"... That's how long players are supposed to hold the ball in that offense.. I can get the youtube clip where the players say this if you want... Accordingly, Lebron's high time-of-possession, ball-dominant style fails the test, but Kobe's elite off-ball ability allows him to pass..

Btw, remember, Lebron is a below-average midrange and 1--on-1 player, so he can't shoot well at high volume, doesn't command double-teams, and wouldn't be as good in previous eras that didn't have the 3-pointers needed for drive-and-kick.. Otoh, Kobe was a great midrange and 1-on-1 player, so he doesn't have these deal-breaking indictments on his game.


Garnett didn't do shit in Minny, but Lebron didn't do shit in Cleveland either.. He made the 2007 Finals in a weak East - the #1 seed Detroit only won 53 games, which is the lowest ever for a 1 seed, while Lebron's Cavs won 50 games and were the #2 seed.. It wasn't an upset, and Lebron only needed to average 25 ppg on 44% to beat them.. Do you know how many guys have done that and WAY better obviously?
.

What does Oscar putting up big stats and losing have to do with anything? It was a weak era. He wouldn't do nearly as good numbers today.

I'm not even going to address what you just said about Kobe. :facepalm The Spurs offense is built on sharing the ball, and making the right play even if the right play is to pass to a player who isn't as good as you.

Talk shit on the east to prop of Garnett? He only went to the finals twice...in the east! After "team hopping" to play on a good squad. He had great stats, but since he didn't win ring after ring he must have been playing "loser basketball":rolleyes: . He was known for his ballhandling as a big man, which you seem to hate when LeBron does it.


Don't feed me stats from the 60's. Those are worthless to me.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Gonna have to link this in the greatest slays thread. 3ball getting bodied.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

My dude 3ball is seriously confused. :oldlol:

He literally went from having Bill Russell as GOAT to placing him outside of his Top 5...in the same thread...and in the matter of a couple hours.

C'mon bruh. I dig your gifs and whatnot, but this is straight buffoonery.

[Young X]

Why the hell are Robertson and Baylor above James?

Before he teamed up with Kareem, Oscar won 2 playoff series in 10 seasons and even missed the playoffs 3 consecutive times in his prime. How is winning 1 ring as the clear 2nd best player on your team better than going 2-6 in the finals as the best player in the league?

Baylor went 0-8 in the finals playing alongside Jerry West (and Chamberlain later on). The Lakers eventually went on to won the title the same year he retired. LOL @ bringing up competition like this wouldn't be viewed as an excuse if it was the other way around and Bron was 0-8 in the finals.

[3ball]

He literally went from having Bill Russell as GOAT to placing him outside of his Top 5...in the same thread...and in the matter of a couple hours.


I never know where to put russell.. Nobody does... I'm still fine with him being #1 tbh, but I wanted to appease guys like you - guys that have a shallow understanding of the game.

[3ball]

Why the hell are Robertson and Baylor above James?



Lebron's poor 1-on-1 and midrange efficiency is too much of a drawback for ANY player to make the top 15.. It means the defense doesn't have to double-team them to prevent high shot volume, since their efficiency can't handle the additional 1-on-1 and midrange required of high volume shooters.. Lebron's poor midrange and 1-on-1 efficiency also indicates that he wouldn't be as good in previous eras, since those were the primary options remaining in the absence of 3-point shooting and resulting drive-and-kick that today's player feasts upon.

Furthermore, Lebron fails the "Spurs Test" because his game doesn't fit into a Spurs/Warriors-like, equal-opportunity offense, which means he isn't capable of the best brand of basketball... Of course, some teams overcome suboptimal play and still win a couple rings, due to the sheer magnitude talent on the team (i.e 2012 and 2013).

[sdot_thadon]

I never know where to put russell.. Nobody does... I'm still fine with him being #1 tbh, but I wanted to appease guys like you - guys that have a shallow understanding of the game.
Says the guy who only cares about one player in nba history's scoring.

[Young X]

Lebron's poor 1-on-1 and midrange efficiency is too much of a drawback for ANY player to make the top 15.. It means the defense doesn't have to double-team them to prevent high shot volume, since their efficiency can't handle the additional 1-on-1 and midrange required of high volume shooters.. Lebron's poor midrange and 1-on-1 efficiency also indicates that he wouldn't be as good in previous eras, since those were the primary options remaining in the absence of 3-point shooting and resulting drive-and-kick that today's player feasts upon.

Furthermore, Lebron fails the "Spurs Test" because his game doesn't fit into a Spurs/Warriors-like, equal-opportunity offense, which means he isn't capable of the best brand of basketball... Of course, some teams overcome suboptimal play and still win a couple rings, due to the sheer magnitude talent on the team (i.e 2012 and 2013).BAYLOR HAD CHAMBERLAIN AND WEST ON HIS TEAM AND STILL DIDN'T WIN A TITLE. STOP COPY AND PASTING SHIT AND EXPLAIN THIS.

[ShaqTwizzle]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Shaq

4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Duncan

7. Hakeem
8. Lebron
9. Bird
10. Wilt

11. West
12. Kobe

[TripleA]

Troll game weak.
Kevin Garnett and Elgin Baylor all time greats vs Lebron James
4 MVP two time champion.

Lebron James full court ability and drive kick game allows his team to have high powered offense while his teammates can focus on off ball play the best type of basketball. :cheers:

[3ball]

BAYLOR HAD CHAMBERLAIN AND WEST ON HIS TEAM AND STILL DIDN'T WIN A TITLE. STOP COPY AND PASTING SHIT AND EXPLAIN THIS.
I only copy and paste stuff that hasn't been refuted.. So if you agree that Lebron's poor midrange and 1-on-1 efficiency has enough negative consequences to put him outside of the Top 15, then the argument's over, so I don't really see the point in responding to something else.

But I'll respond anyway.. Think about it this way - Lebron is frequently outsmarted by equal or less-talented teams that play a vastly superior brand of basketball - so how do you think he would do against the 60's Celtics, who were the smartest team ever with the best teamwork/brand of basketball ever, and were also the most stacked team of all time?.

I mean, to an extent you're right - in the 1969 Finals, the Lakers lost despite getting 38 ppg from West, 18/11 from an old Baylor, and 12/25 from Chamberlain.. That's how stacked and GOOD the Celtics were... Lebron gets destroyed by those guys worse than Dirk or 38-year old Duncan did him.. Keep in mind that in all the Finals Lebron lost, he got blown away for 3 straight games to finish out the series, which shows how much teams figure him out - wouldn't it be fun to see the 60's Celtics figure him out and own the crap out of him for his entire career the way they did Wilt, whose stats and dominance were FAR greater?

[TripleA]

You can talk about about hypotheticals 3bitch. You unathletic loser.:lol
But all I know Lebron even with his trash jumpshot and poor ISO abilities is a two time champion while Baylor has zero rings and his team won without him.
His fast break game and drive and kick game allow him to get past his sub optimal style to win.:applause:

[Lebron23]

Gonna have to link this in the greatest slays thread. 3ball getting bodied.


Dude is a terrible gimmik account. I won't be suprise if he's MarkMadsen, or some other Kobeturds..

[Angel Face]

MJ not #1 on 3Ball's GOAT list.., :confusedshrug:

Jordan be like...

http://replygif.net/i/1249.gif

[dubeta]

MJ not #1 on 3Ball's GOAT list.., :confusedshrug:

Jordan be like...




He shouldnt be #1 in ANY GOAT list tbh

[Lebron23]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Shaq

4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Duncan

7. Hakeem
8. Lebron
9. Bird
10. Wilt

11. West
12. Kobe


Switch Hakeem and LeBron. And I Agree with your lists.

[3ball]

You can talk about about hypotheticals 3bitch. You unathletic loser.:lol
But all I know Lebron even with his trash jumpshot and poor ISO abilities is a two time champion while Baylor has zero rings and his team won without him.
His fast break game and drive and kick game allow him to get past his sub optimal style to win.:applause:


Isn't the fact that Lebron has poor 1-on-1 and midrange too big a factor for ANY player to make the top 15?

Since Lebron's efficiency can't handle the additional 1-on-1 and midrange required of high volume shooting, opposing defenses don't have to double-team Lebron to prevent high shot volume.. Lebron's lack of midrange and 1-on-1 ability also indicates that he wouldn't be as good in previous eras, since midrange and 1-on-1 were the primary options remaining in the absence of 3-point shooting and resulting drive-and-kick that today's player is accustomed to.

[Young X]

I only copy and paste stuff that hasn't been refuted.. So if you agree that Lebron's poor midrange and 1-on-1 efficiency has enough negative consequences to put him outside of the Top 15, then the argument's over, so I don't really see the point in responding to something else. If his "poor midrange and 1-on-1 efficiency" has such a negative consequence then...

1) Why does he have such a tremendous offensive impact?

2) Why have his teams performed so well offensively? Even in his Cleveland years when he didn't have any outstanding offensive teammates?


But I'll respond anyway.. Think about it this way - Lebron is frequently outsmarted by equal or less-talented teams that play a vastly superior brand of basketball - so how do you think he would do against the 60's Celtics, who were the smartest team ever with the best teamwork/brand of basketball ever, and were also the most stacked team of all time?.

I mean, to an extent you're right - in the 1969 Finals, the Lakers lost despite getting 38 ppg from West, 18/11 from an old Baylor, and 12/25 from Chamberlain.. That's how stacked and GOOD the Celtics were... Lebron gets destroyed by those guys worse than Dirk or 38-year old Duncan did him.. Keep in mind that in all the Finals Lebron lost, he got blown away for 3 straight games to finish out the series, which shows how much teams figure him out - wouldn't it be fun to see the 60's Celtics figure him out and own the crap out of him for his entire career the way they did Wilt, whose stats and dominance were FAR greater?You still didn't answer the question. The Lakers were MORE talented than the Celtics in '69, had homecourt, and were supposed to win that series. Why did they still lose?

If Lebron had lost with West and Chamberlain on his team you know damn well you would use that against him regardless of who they would've lost to. Doesn't seem to matter when it happened with Baylor though.

[Lebron23]

3ball doesn't know anything about basketball, but we all know he's a gimmick account of another poster in this forum. He's been posting the same repetitive BS in this thread.

He cannot troll in realgm cause the moderators in that forum would destroy his @$$.

[Lebron23]

This is why we need a new set of moderators. Some of the moderators are no longer active.

People are too harsh on Realmenweargreen, but he's actually the best moderator in this forum.

[3ball]

If his "poor midrange and 1-on-1 efficiency" has such a negative consequence then...

2) Why have his teams performed so well offensively? Even in his Cleveland years when he didn't have any outstanding offensive teammates?


The fact that Lebron usually leads a top 5 offense is not noteworthy.. Nash, Kevin Johnson, Karl Malone and many other players have led top 5 offenses as well.. It means nothing..

Otoh, Lebron's stats lack integrity because he achieves them at the expense of teammates - as previously shown, it's a statistical fact that Lebron significantly lowers the PPG and APG of teammates... With Lebron's production preventing teammates from playing to capacity (lower ppg, apg), the TEAM can't play to capacity and underperforms (2009, 2011, 2014)..

His stat accumulation is also helped by employing a stat-friendly, easily-solvable, playground style, rather than trying to win... It takes superior, nuanced skill to achieve all-time level stats within an equal-opportunity offense that can actually win.

[Lebron23]

The fact that Lebron usually leads a top 5 offense is not noteworthy.. Nash, Kevin Johnson, Karl Malone and many other players have led top 5 offenses as well.. It means nothing..

Otoh, Lebron's stats lack integrity because he achieves them at the expense of teammates - as previously shown, it's a statistical fact that Lebron significantly lowers the PPG and APG of teammates... With Lebron's production preventing teammates from playing to capacity (lower ppg, apg), the TEAM can't play to capacity and underperforms (2009, 2011, 2014)..

His stat accumulation is also helped by employing a stat-friendly, easily-solvable, playground style, rather than trying to win... It takes superior, nuanced skill to achieve all-time level stats within an equal-opportunity offense that can actually win.

4x NBA MVP, 2x Finals MVP

[TripleA]

4x NBA MVP, 2x Finals MVP
:lol :lol

[3ball]

:facepalm

[3ball]

If Lebron had lost with West and Chamberlain on his team you know damn well you would use that against him regardless of who they would've lost to. Doesn't seem to matter when it happened with Baylor though.



The reason Baylor can lose to the Celtics is because they had more talent - the Celtics were the most stacked team of all time, with by far the most all-stars ever.. Baylor and Chamberlain weren't underachieving by losing to the Celtics - the Celtics were the most stacked team in the league and the perennial favorite.

Furthermore, Baylor was a great midrange and 1-on-1 player, so he didn't have any of resulting deal-breaking indictments on his game like Lebron:

Since Lebron's efficiency can't handle the additional 1-on-1 and midrange required of high volume shooting, opposing defenses don't have to double-team Lebron to prevent high shot volume.. Lebron's lack of midrange and 1-on-1 efficiency also shows that he wouldn't be as good in previous eras, since those were the main options remaining in the absence of the 3-pointers needed to make today's customary drive-and-kick a viable option.
.

[Young X]

The fact that Lebron usually leads a top 5 offense is not noteworthy.. Nash, Kevin Johnson, Karl Malone and many other players have led top 5 offenses as well.. It means nothing..

Otoh, Lebron's stats lack integrity because he achieves them at the expense of teammates - as previously shown, it's a statistical fact that Lebron significantly lowers the PPG and APG of teammates... With Lebron's production preventing teammates from playing to capacity (lower ppg, apg), the TEAM can't play to capacity and underperforms (2009, 2011, 2014)..

His stat accumulation is also helped by employing a stat-friendly, easily-solvable, playground style, rather than trying to win... It takes superior, nuanced skill to achieve all-time level stats within an equal-opportunity offense that can actually win.Here we go again with the copy & paste shit. :sleeping

So now a player consistently leading/anchoring elite offenses doesn't mean anything? That's the dumbest shit I ever heard.

Question: Were the late 80's Lakers (greatest offensive dynasty in NBA history) an equal opportunity offense? Or was the ball mostly in Magic's hands?

[aj1987]

Here we go again with the copy & paste shit. :sleeping

So now a player consistently leading/anchoring elite offenses doesn't mean anything? That's the dumbest shit I ever heard.

Question: Were the late 80's Lakers (greatest offensive dynasty in NBA history) an equal opportunity offense? Or was the ball mostly in Magic's hands?
He also ignores the fact that Nash and Stockton (the dude who ran the Jazz offense) are GOAT tier PG's and KJ had a plethora of 20 PPG scorers, while he himself was an elite PG.

That's what 3ball does though. Ignores every point, just picks one, and copy+paste. Repeat.

[3ball]

Question: Were the late 80's Lakers an equal opportunity offense? Or was the ball mostly in Magic's hands?



Do I ever mention Magic when I talk about equal-opportunity offenses?... Nope - Magic had the 2nd most stacked team of all time, behind the 60's Celtics.

A good example of two teams that use equal-opportunity offenses (where all 5 guys share the playmaking) are the Spurs and Warriors - if you watch either team, ALL FIVE GUYS are driving and kicking, not just mostly 1 guy like a lot of other teams..

In the 90's, the 3-point shooting didn't exist for drive and kick to be a viable option (it's not worthwhile to drive-and-kick for 2-pointers), so it was all about posting instead... And in the triangle, you'd see ALL GIVE GUYS posting - each guy caught the ball in the post and would turn-pivot, and explore all the options.. Guys like Kerr and Longley handed it off a lot, while MJ shot more often, but all players had the opportunity to make a play.
.

[Lebron23]

What style?? LeBron would average 33 ppg if he played in the 1980's.

[3ball]

What style?? LeBron would average 33 ppg if he played in the 1980's.



Actually, Lebron currently enjoys hands-off defense where he has tons of room between him and defender:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-07-2015/KVA0Bm.gif



But in previous eras, he'd face hand-checking and NO space between him and the defender:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-01-2015/V2-pAN.gif


Furthermore, Lebron's below-average midrange and isolation efficiency shows that he wouldn't be as good in previous eras, since those were the main options remaining in the absence of the 3-pointers needed to make today's customary drive-and-kick a viable option.
.

[Lebron23]

Lebron living rent free inside your head. You are a loser compared to him. Stay Losing 3ball.

[3ball]

i disagree with this.

sometimes the best offense in the game is just giving the ball to someone like a Durant or a Lebron James and just let them work.

Look at the Hawks last playoffs. Their pass happy offense got totally exploited and they struggled because they didn't have go to guys that can manufacture buckets when defenses got dialed in.

It's too simplistic to say "complex offenses are always better". Sometimes caveman ball is better. Good teams can do both.
You must not take my assertions seriously - but the stats are real - Lebron significantly LOWERS the APG and assist % of his teammates - this is never optimal for any team:


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)


Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), .8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'): 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)
Irving apg and assist % with... Lebron (2015):... 5.2, 25.0%


Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN: 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:. 2.2, 10.7%

Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron: 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron: 4.1, 20.1%

FYI...

Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 91'-93': 6.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game), 24.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % w/out Jordan 94'-95': 5.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game), 23.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 96'-98': 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game), 25.1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced)

Source: basketball-reference.com


There's a reason for the stats show that Lebron lowers the assist capacity of his team - starting fives normally have only 1 ball-dominant, low-assisted player that teammates rarely throw assists to - the point guard - but Lebron's point guard style from the forward position adds a 2nd low-assisted player that teammates can't throw assists to, which lowers the assist capacity of the team - not surprisingly, Lebron's presence didn't materially improve the assist frequency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446) of his Heat and Cavs teams.. Otoh, MJ was a highly-assisted, off-ball player, so his presence significantly increased the assist frequency of the Bulls' teams, as the data linked above shows.

Not surprisingly, Lebron's presence as an extra point guard significantly reduces the APG and assist % (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841) of remaining teammates, while their assisted rate increases - this proves Lebron's presence as an extra point guard turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers, thus preventing the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that the Mavs, Spurs, Warriors, and 90's Bulls used (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s), where all 5 guys share the playmaking duties - since Lebron prevents the best brand of basketball, his teams are susceptible to equal or less-talented opponents pulling upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..

Ultimately, Lebron's stats lack integrity because he accumulates them at the expense of teammates.. His stat accumulation is also helped by employing a stat-friendly, easily-solvable, playground style, rather than trying to win.. His stat-friendly style is far less impressive than the superior, nuanced skill required to achieve stats within an equal-opportunity offense that can actually win.

[aj1987]

But in previous eras, he'd face hand-checking and NO space between him and the defender:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-01-2015/V2-pAN.gif
So, he'd probably average like 20 PPG and 10+ APG, dumping it to the WIDE open snipers. Not bad. 20+ PPG 10+ APG 8+ RPG. That's basically a triple double. Prime/peak Magic numbers.

[Lebron23]

http://2.media.collegehumor.cvcdn.com/71/17/b47c459d689f0eebc9d74ac7c9ef72af-every-lebron-game-7-basket-in-one-gif.gif

[feyki]

What style?? LeBron would average 33 ppg if he played in the 1980's.

You don't know era's dynamics brother. You must be search hand check evolution.

[Beastmode88]

Lebron living rent free inside your head. You are a loser compared to him. Stay Losing 3ball.

Then you're a rat compared to lebron. :lol

[warriorfan]

You don't know era's dynamics brother. You must be search hand check evolution.

dont bother, he is so stanned out that it is a lost cause

[pauk]

At least you didnt list Lebron down there anywhere at all, thats good, i hate when butthurtians list him like somewhere between 11-20 or 21-30 or 40-70 or 80-1000, he doesnt belong there as it doesnt make sense with his resume & talent, complete stupidness.... You place Lebron either Top 10 or NOWHERE in your list (act like he doesnt exist / act like anything he is & has done does not count) if you have any respect whatsoever for basketball itself, its better... just like you did, so good job.