Would Lebron improve or spoil the 86 Celtics?

[Dr Hawk]

Replace Bird with any version of Lebron. Would the 86 Celtics, considered one of the best teams of all time if not the best and one of the best passing teams if not the best of all time improve?

I think Lebron would hurt a LOT this Celtics version because of his playstyle and lack of off-ball play. Bird was incredible this year. In PO's, his USG% was only of 23.3% and his stats were amazing: 26/9/8 on .517 FG% :bowdown:

What doyou guys think?

[sdot_thadon]

Either the 12 or 13 version of Lebron would probably give similar results. Any other version would change the makeup of the team too much to be the same. I dunno if he'd spoil it per say but it definitely wouldn't be the same team.

[chips93]

i think if you just stuck lebron onto the team, and the already had a great system and great ball movement, he'd be smart enough to know not to **** with that, and not to stop the ball. that way he'd fit in fine.

i think if you draft lebron instead of bird, and add those guys around him, the ball movement doesnt develop into what it actually did.

[GoatBoy]

Bird > Lebron

So naturally he would spoil them.

[Derka]

Spoil might be going a bit far, but it would be completely different.

Lebron playing his game with guys like McHale, Parish and Walton out there: true bigs who made the post their domain and operated in there almost exclusively. How the hell would they make that work? Lebron's got bball IQ, but guys like Walton and McHale were on another level offensively...there are no bigs who see that game that way anymore.

[JT123]

If Lebron could win 2 rings with washed up Wade and a PF who's afraid to post up, then I can't imagine how many he'd win with a roster STACKED with nothing but Hall of Famers. :eek:
I don't think 5 straight rings is out of the question tbh

[dubeta]

They'd be better considering LeBron's a better off-ball player.

[JohnMax]

Do the Celtics have a clutch scorer/tough shot maker like Kyrie or Wade?

[Rocketswin2013]

They'd win the title with about 5 or 6 versions of him.

Bird is pretty portable but you're still asking a unanswerable(precise) question.

Would Bird improve or spoil the 2009 Cavaliers?

[Gileraracer]

They would be a lottery team with our KANG Lebron :( Bird was just too good

[AirFederer]

Spoil might be going a bit far, but it would be completely different.

Lebron playing his game with guys like McHale, Parish and Walton out there: true bigs who made the post their domain and operated in there almost exclusively. How the hell would they make that work? Lebron's got bball IQ, but guys like Walton and McHale were on another level offensively...there are no bigs who see that game that way anymore.

They`d all stand at the three point line with Bron :oldlol:

[PHILA]

The first question here should center around Bill Walton. If you replay that season again, does he stay healthy enough to play 80 games?

[SHAQisGOAT]

They definitely would've been worse...

-Bird can be argued as the GOAT off-ball player... LeBron is, at the very best, average a it.

-Bird could imprint his best impact playing on or off the ball... LeBron needs to have the ball in his hands for most of the time, or else he's not even remotely close to showing his full impact.

-Bird had that infectious style of passing (as McHale said), with the ball always moving, hitting the right players... LeBron "holds on" to the ball a whole lot and he's mostly creating off the dribble, mostly out of drive-and-dish; style where he can get a lot of assists but his teammates not really and the best play is not created time and time again.

-Bird could display tremendous impact within the flow or the game for the vast majority of time... LeBron is not the same.

-Bird doesn't have the need for most of his teammates to be spacing the floor for him, and he could dominate on the inside or on the outside in many different ways... The same cannot be said for LeBron.

-Bird had a higher basketball IQ than James and was infinitely better at adapting to teammates' style of play or to different playing strategies out on the basketball court.

You replace peak Bird with peak LeBron in the 1986 Celtics, and they WOULDN'T be as good nor dominate the same, and you WOULDN'T have seen this type of beautiful stuff:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4Td5QRfzj4

I can still see them winning the title though...

You even had LeBron joining two ESTABLISHED stars in the league, one a top3/5 player... They never came close to 1986 Celtics' dominance or beautiful basketball.

You could insert Bird into last year's Warriors or into the 2014 Spurs... And their style of play would've remained intact while Larry would've adapted in no time and they would've gotten much BETTER. And, otoh, you could also put Bird in one of the worst teams in the league and he would've changed that, IMMEDIATELY and CONSIDERABLY.

[dubeta]

They definitely would've been worse...

-Bird can be argued as the GOAT off-ball player... LeBron is, at the very best, average a it.

-Bird could imprint his best impact playing on or off the ball... LeBron needs to have the ball in his hands for most of the time, or else he's not even remotely close to showing his full impact.

-Bird had that infectious style of passing (as McHale said), with the ball always moving, hitting the right players... LeBron "holds on" to the ball a whole lot and he's mostly creating off the dribble, mostly out of drive-and-dish; style where he can get a lot of assists but his teammates not really and the best play is not created time and time again.

-Bird could display tremendous impact within the flow or the game for the vast majority of time... LeBron is not the same.

-Bird doesn't have the need for most of his teammates to be spacing the floor for him, and he could dominate on the inside or on the outside in many different ways... The same cannot be said for LeBron.

-Bird had a higher basketball IQ than James and was infinitely better at adapting to teammates' style of play or to different playing strategies out on the basketball court.

You replace peak Bird with peak LeBron in the 1986 Celtics, and they WOULDN'T be as good nor dominate the same, and you WOULDN'T have seen this type of beautiful stuff:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4Td5QRfzj4

I can still see them winning the title though...

You even had LeBron joining two ESTABLISHED stars in the league, one a top3/5 player... They never came close to 1986 Celtics' dominance or beautiful basketball.

You could insert Bird into last year's Warriors or into the 2014 Spurs... And their style of play would've remained intact while Larry would've adapted in no time and they would've gotten much BETTER. And, otoh, you could also put Bird in one of the worst teams in the league and he would've changed that, IMMEDIATELY and CONSIDERABLY.




You said the same thing 9 different times


Congrats

[Doranku]

Replace one of the most skilled and clutch players of all time with some ring-chasing, colluding bozo that has two left feet and a broken jumper... hmm, I wonder. :roll:

[SHAQisGOAT]

And here is a small taste of the level Bird was at in 1986...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maS9smxRubI

That's basketball at its finest right there^
Not like these boxscore watchers wanna judge things though; Bird had his best regular-season numbers probably in 1988, Bird did one of the GOAT "carrying-jobs" in 1984... Numbers were still terrific in 1986 but it ain't all about that though, people who know about basketball can tell it, Bird was at an unreal level in 1986, a top5 peak... Some ignorant people will continue to judge things by only looking at numbers though :rolleyes: :facepalm

[Dr Hawk]

They definitely would've been worse...

-Bird can be argued as the GOAT off-ball player... LeBron is, at the very best, average a it.

-Bird could imprint his best impact playing on or off the ball... LeBron needs to have the ball in his hands for most of the time, or else he's not even remotely close to showing his full impact.

-Bird had that infectious style of passing (as McHale said), with the ball always moving, hitting the right players... LeBron "holds on" to the ball a whole lot and he's mostly creating off the dribble, mostly out of drive-and-dish; style where he can get a lot of assists but his teammates not really and the best play is not created time and time again.

-Bird could display tremendous impact within the flow or the game for the vast majority of time... LeBron is not the same.

-Bird doesn't have the need for most of his teammates to be spacing the floor for him, and he could dominate on the inside or on the outside in many different ways... The same cannot be said for LeBron.

-Bird had a higher basketball IQ than James and was infinitely better at adapting to teammates' style of play or to different playing strategies out on the basketball court.

You replace peak Bird with peak LeBron in the 1986 Celtics, and they WOULDN'T be as good nor dominate the same, and you WOULDN'T have seen this type of beautiful stuff:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4Td5QRfzj4

I can still see them winning the title though...

You even had LeBron joining two ESTABLISHED stars in the league, one a top3/5 player... They never came close to 1986 Celtics' dominance or beautiful basketball.

You could insert Bird into last year's Warriors or into the 2014 Spurs... And their style of play would've remained intact while Larry would've adapted in no time and they would've gotten much BETTER. And, otoh, you could also put Bird in one of the worst teams in the league and he would've changed that, IMMEDIATELY and CONSIDERABLY.

I agree 100% :cheers:

[Duffy Pratt]

I'm trying to picture Kevin McHale shooting spot up threes to keep the lane clear for Bron. I'm think about Bron flopping on every drive, and not getting the calls in 1986. I'm thinking about the "crab dribble" actually being called what it is. Basically, its hard for me to imagine a worse fit than LeBron on that team.

You need to have seen Bird and Walton working together to appreciate how special the two of them were. That chemistry would be totally gone. Also, except for Ainge, the Celtics didn't have any spot up shooters who would benefit from LeBron's "style".

[Dr Hawk]

I'm trying to picture Kevin McHale shooting spot up threes to keep the lane clear for Bron. I'm think about Bron flopping on every drive, and not getting the calls in 1986. I'm thinking about the "crab dribble" actually being called what it is. Basically, its hard for me to imagine a worse fit than LeBron on that team.

You need to have seen Bird and Walton working together to appreciate how special the two of them were. That chemistry would be totally gone. Also, except for Ainge, the Celtics didn't have any spot up shooters who would benefit from LeBron's "style".

I agree.

I think Lebron is better than Bird carrying bad teams, but Bird's play-style allows his teams to have a higher ceiling than Bron's.

[Rocketswin2013]

And here is a small taste of the level Bird was at in 1986...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maS9smxRubI

That's basketball at its finest right there^
Not like these boxscore watchers wanna judge things though; Bird had his best regular-season numbers probably in 1988, Bird did one of the GOAT "carrying-jobs" in 1984... Numbers were still terrific in 1986 but it ain't all about that though, people who know about basketball can tell it, Bird was at an unreal level in 1986, a top5 peak... Some ignorant people will continue to judge things by only looking at numbers though :rolleyes: :facepalm
Everything in that video appeared in the boxscore dude.

Fcking Bill Simmons said it was his peak PER...:oldlol:

And I wouldn't even rate Bird over LeBron because of boxscore numbers.


Impact data...

[3ball]

.
Would Lebron lower the APG of Celtic teammates like he always does?


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)


Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), .8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)


Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'): 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)
Irving apg and assist % with... Lebron (2015):... 5.2, 25.0%


Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN: 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:. 2.2, 10.7%


Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron: 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron: 4.1, 20.1%


Source: basketball-reference.com


There's a reason the stats show Lebron lowering the assist capacity of his team - starting fives normally have only 1 ball-dominant, low-assisted player that teammates rarely throw assists to - the point guard - but Lebron's point guard style from the forward position adds a 2nd low-assisted player that teammates can't throw assists to, which lowers the assist capacity of the team - not surprisingly, Lebron's presence didn't materially improve the assist frequency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446) of his Heat and Cavs teams.. Otoh, players like Bird and MJ were highly-assisted, off-ball players, so their presence significantly increased the assist frequency of their teams, as the data linked above shows.

Not surprisingly, Lebron's presence as an extra point guard significantly reduces the APG and assist % (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841) of teammates, while their assisted rate increases - this proves Lebron's presence as an extra point guard turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers, thus preventing the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that the Bird's Celtics, the Mavs, Spurs, Warriors, and 90's Bulls used (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s), where all 5 guys share the playmaking duties - since Lebron prevents the best brand of basketball, various equal or less-talented teams have pulled upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..

Ultimately, Lebron's stats lack integrity because he accumulates them at the expense of teammates.. His stat accumulation is also helped by employing a stat-friendly, easily-solvable, playground style, rather than trying to win.. His stat-friendly style is far less impressive than the superior, nuanced skill Bird and MJ needed to achieve stats within an equal-opportunity offense that can actually win.
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[pauk]

Considering Lebron overall does more on both ends of the floor (the defensive side would see an even bigger improvement) than Bird and is just as unselfish of a player with similar mindset then i dont see the rationale to why he would NOT improve them or NOT keep them where they are (he would do that to the very least i think)... that doesnt make sense...

Bird is a better shooter & better rebounder perhaps but so is Dirk Nowitzki or Kevin Love or many others... Lebron scores more, dishes more and defensively its a big gap.... i love Bird, but Lebron is overall just a tad bit more, sorry.... Bird is one of my favorite players ever, im just not nostalgically biased, its a shooter thing and loved his passing/vision aswell (which Lebron has aswell mind you).

[Gileraracer]

Don't get me wrong, I am a hug Lebron Stan, maybe a bigger stan than dubeta.

But everyone knows that Bird was one of the GOAT shooters in NBA history while LeBron shoots 27% beyond 5ft. So this question @ OP is just BLASPHEMY.