Most versatile defenders ever [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

sdot_thadon

10-08-2015, 05:04 PM

Was in a thread derailing debate and this came up. Who are the most VERSATILE defenders of all time? This isn't a thread to determine who's best, just who has the most utility. Who has the most facets of defense and can guard the most posistions, in short who can you use the most different ways in any given system?

1. Pippen
2.Kg
3. Rodman

And after that it gets fuzzy, I guess I'd go

4.Lebron
5.Mj/several others, not too sure about this spot because I feel like I forgot or overlooked someone.

Just a quick rundown, nothing definitive. I'm not really familiar with the defensive standouts pre late 80's. Am I missing anyone that leaps up the list? Who do you have as the most versatile?

MP.Trey

10-08-2015, 05:06 PM

Your list is pretty good. I'd add Shawn Marion as a honorable mention.

CavaliersFTW

10-08-2015, 05:09 PM

These guys are as versatile and respected as all-around defensive players as anyone you mentioned, they just don't get mentioned a lot because "old":

Gus Johnson

Satch Sanders

Dave DeBusschere

Bobby Jones

sdot_thadon

10-08-2015, 05:14 PM

Your list is pretty good. I'd add Shawn Marion as a honorable mention.
Yeah, totally forgot about matrix. I think it's pretty tough to be able to handle the post and go out to the perimeter and vise versa. Marion would maybe bump Mj out of that 5 spot and push Lebron for the 4th.

These guys are as versatile and respected as all-around defensive players as anyone you mentioned, they just don't get mentioned a lot because "old":

Gus Johnson

Satch Sanders

Dave DeBusschere

Bobby Jones

I forgot Bobby Jones for sure, not real familiar with the capabilities of the other guys. Care to shed a bit of light on them Cavs? We're they perimeter guys, post guys, or both?

JT123

10-08-2015, 05:18 PM

bizil

10-08-2015, 05:21 PM

Rodman
KG
Pippen
Bobby Jones
Kirilenko
Bron
Marion
Anthony Mason
Manimal
Josh Smith

I think these are guys who can defend four positions good to great. Of course u can throw in other guys. But these 10 guys came to my mind first. If u are looking for guys who can defend the three perimeter positions, the following list are still very versatile. But they don't defend the power positions like the other list of guys:

MJ
Cooper
Moncrief
Kobe
Pressey
Bowen
Payton
Kidd
Clyde Frazier
Wade

Levity

10-08-2015, 05:24 PM

How the hell do you have KG over Lebron? :facepalm
Lebron can shut down every position from elite pg's like Rose to dominant centers like Big Al. You honestly think KG could shut down elite guards like Rose and Parker in the playoffs the way Lebron has? :oldlol:

i bet current KG, the one who rocks a life alert necklace in practice, could have guarded Iggy better in the finals.

CavaliersFTW

10-08-2015, 05:25 PM

Yeah, totally forgot about matrix. I think it's pretty tough to be able to handle the post and go out to the perimeter and vise versa. Marion would maybe bump Mj out of that 5 spot and push Lebron for the 4th.

I forgot Bobby Jones for sure, not real familiar with the capabilities of the other guys. Care to shed a bit of light on them Cavs? We're they perimeter guys, post guys, or both?
Well the premise of your thread was versatility so I only mentioned guys who were respected defenders of "both".

Otherwise I'd have mentioned guys like Bill Russell, Nate Thurmond, Jerry West, Walt Frazier, KC Jones etc - who were also "elite" defensive players themselves though more focused on either perimeter players, or paint and rim protection.

The guys I mentioned were all elite defensive forwards so the area of floor or assignments they'd be left to defend in a game could have been anyone, anywhere. Gus Johnson for example guarded Oscar Robertson a lot. Then, years later, Gus, due to his freak status strength and athleticism and defensive prowess, was actually also assigned to defend 7 foot 2 Artis Gilmore in an ABA Finals. There's footage of him battling in the post against Wilt Chamberlain too. Not saying he did "well" against big centers, or little guards, but he is always cited by the elite offensive players of that era (Oscar and Baylor) as being one of the top defensive players of that era against them, and his assignments ranging anywhere from guards to dominating centers speaks for itself. Earl Monroe actually says he's possibly the best defensive forward 'ever' at least as far as he's concerned.

DeBusschere from what I've seen was like an equally strong though less athletic Gus. Probably didn't get assigned to guards as much as Gus could have, though still probably was flexible from shooting guard or small forward up to centers on certain possessions. Highly respected defensive player of his era.

Satch probably never went up against centers but he was a power forward to small forward and probably could rotate onto guards if he needed to as well. He's also mentioned by Elgin as one of the best defenders against him.

Those are just the three forwards from that 60's to 70's era that are always first to be mentioned in defensive conversations. And I know at least Gus in particular guarded virtually every position at some point in his career.

sdot_thadon

10-08-2015, 05:26 PM

How the hell do you have KG over Lebron? :facepalm
Lebron can shut down every position from elite pg's like Rose to dominant centers like Big Al. You honestly think KG could shut down elite guards like Rose and Parker in the playoffs the way Lebron has? :oldlol:
Because KG is just a better defender out right, and in addition he was able to guard the perimeter at his best.

Uncle Drew

10-08-2015, 05:29 PM

According to ISH; Tristan Thompson.

sdot_thadon

10-08-2015, 05:30 PM

Well the premise of your thread was versatility so I only mentioned guys who were respected defenders of "both".

Otherwise I'd have mentioned guys like Bill Russell, Nate Thurmond, Jerry West, Walt Frazier, KC Jones etc - who were also "elite" defensive players themselves though more focused on either perimeter players, or paint and rim protection.

The guys I mentioned were all elite defensive forwards so the area of floor or assignments they'd be left to defend in a game could have been anyone, anywhere. Gus Johnson for example guarded Oscar Robertson a lot. Then, years later, Gus, due to his freak status strength and athleticism and defensive prowess, was actually also assigned to defend 7 foot 2 Artis Gilmore in an ABA Finals. There's footage of him battling in the post against Wilt Chamberlain too. Not saying he did "well" against big centers, or little guards, but he is always cited by the elite offensive players of that era (Oscar and Baylor) as being one of the top defensive players of that era against them, and his assignments ranging anywhere from guards to dominating centers speaks for itself. Earl Monroe actually says he's possibly the best defensive forward 'ever' at least as far as he's concerned.

DeBusschere from what I've seen was like an equally strong though less athletic Gus. Probably didn't get assigned to guards as much as Gus could have, though still probably was flexible from shooting guard or small forward up to centers on certain possessions. Highly respected defensive player of his era.

Satch probably never went up against centers but he was a power forward to small forward and probably could rotate onto guards if he needed to as well. He's also mentioned by Elgin as one of the best defenders against him.

Those are just the three forwards from that 60's to 70's era that are always first to be mentioned in defensive conversations. And I know at least Gus in particular guarded virtually every position at some point in his career.
Cool, thanks for the descriptions. In your opinion would any of those guys supplant the first 5 or 6 mentioned? (OP + marion)

CavaliersFTW

10-08-2015, 05:33 PM

Here's my film of Gus Johnson:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHcrG6gfJhI

Oscar Robertson sums it up best "He could play against much much bigger players"

My research tells me Gus was 6 foot 4 and 3/4 without shoes (same height as Kobe Bryant, MJ, Charles Barkley, Oscar Robertson etc) but if you look at film he has LONG long arms like Barkley had and explosive leaping ability and strength that help him play bigger. At 235lbs Gus Johnson was built like a trimmed down Barkley (Barkley at his slimmest was about 250), or jacked up Michael Jordan (who played about about 218).

sdot_thadon

10-08-2015, 05:59 PM

Rocketswin2013

10-08-2015, 06:08 PM

Shane Battier deserves mention.

bizil

10-08-2015, 06:11 PM

Shane Battier deserves mention.

He sure does! At his peak, capable of defending four positions good to great! A huge part of the Heat's success was having three great defenders in Shane, Bron, and D Wade.

Mr. Jabbar

10-08-2015, 06:13 PM

Pau Gasol, easy.

-3ball

feyki

10-08-2015, 06:15 PM

Bill
Hakeem
Nate Thurmond
Ben Wallace
Wilt
Kareem
Admiral
Alonzo
Ewing
Garnett

HoopologyPhD

10-08-2015, 06:50 PM

The problem with adding modern players to this list is that big guys like LeBron and Kevin Durant don't have any post moves or the ability to use their size to their advantage against smaller players so you see them getting stopped by the likes of JJ Barea and Chris Paul.

catch24

10-08-2015, 07:08 PM

Agree with your top 3

Despite the rules being against him (individually), you could argue LeBron should be on that list as well. At least when he played defense.

The man could defend 1-4's and at times centers. Anybody have that clip where he completely eviscerates Gasol on the low block? My boy PG couldn't even get open. :oldlol:

HOoopCityJones

10-08-2015, 07:11 PM

Pau Gasol, easy.

-3ball

:roll:

Ni99a lost all credibility.

SHAQisGOAT

10-08-2015, 07:34 PM

Bobby Jones
Rodman
Pippen
KG
Gus Johnson
Michael Cooper
LeBron
Dan Roundfield
McHale
Battier
Larry Nance
Kirilenko

feyki

10-08-2015, 07:49 PM

Bobby Jones
Rodman
Pippen
KG
Gus Johnson
Michael Cooper
LeBron
Dan Roundfield
McHale
Battier
Larry Nance
Kirilenko

Mchale and versatile , interesting..

3ball

10-08-2015, 07:59 PM

how is michael cooper more versatile defender than MJ?... that's sheer mj fatigue/bias.

poido123

10-08-2015, 08:02 PM

Young Rodman.

I think he could defend all 5 positions admirably.

He had quick feet, elite hops and obviously height.

SHAQisGOAT

10-08-2015, 08:09 PM

Mchale and versatile , interesting..

Why not? :confusedshrug:

He defended power forwards ofc, even some centers, and at some point (after 1985 or so) he was the one who was mostly guarding the best scoring SF's, for the Celtics... At some point or another he defended dudes like Wilkins, Dantley Worthy, King, Aguirre... That way Bird could continue to play sort of like a free safety (how he was most impactful) while also not wearing himself out as much, plus Larry started to have back-problems and such, so Kevin was better fitted to guard some of those players anyways.
Most of the time McHale was doing a very good job at it, while also averaging around 2 BPG and half a steal.

He's one of the most versatile defenders ever to me, one of main the reasons that made him great on defense in his best years... He wasn't making all-defensive 1st and such, due to him being a big-time defensive anchor or great a paint-protector, I'll tell you that...

bizil

10-08-2015, 08:13 PM

Bobby Jones
Rodman
Pippen
KG
Gus Johnson
Michael Cooper
LeBron
Dan Roundfield
McHale
Battier
Larry Nance
Kirilenko

Larry Nance is a great choice! In the two way sense, I think he has a very good case as a top 10 PF ever. Of course u have guys like KG, Duncan, and McHale. And Anthony Davis is gonna be in that class sooner than later. But other than those kind of guys, I think Nance has to come up soon when it comes to the top 10 two way PF's.

Lebron23

10-08-2015, 08:15 PM

GrapeApe

10-08-2015, 08:17 PM

No love for Artest?

SHAQisGOAT

10-08-2015, 08:18 PM

how is michael cooper more versatile defender than MJ?... that's sheer mj fatigue/bias.

When it comes to ranking the best defensive SG's, I've got...
1. Moncrief
2. Jordan
3. Cooper

But Cooper, imho, was a more versatile defender than MJ... That's if you're counting the better ability to guard different types of players/positions more than anything else.

He defended Isiah, Dantley, Mullin, Gervin, Sleepy Floyd, Dale Ellis, Erving, Drexler, Stockton, Aguirre, so on... Locked down plenty of them, plenty of times.
You got Larry Bird... When Jordan tried to guard him? Larry mostly killed him; while Cooper did one of the best defensive works on Bird, out of everyone LB faced.

And you're gonna call me biased, in this discussion? :rolleyes:

SHAQisGOAT

10-08-2015, 08:21 PM

Larry Nance is a great choice! In the two way sense, I think he has a very good case as a top 10 PF ever. Of course u have guys like KG, Duncan, and McHale. And Anthony Davis is gonna be in that class sooner than later. But other than those kind of guys, I think Nance has to come up soon when it comes to the top 10 two way PF's.

Nance gets pretty overlooked these days... Tall/long af, athletic freak, very good two-way player...

4 Inches

10-08-2015, 08:22 PM

The most versatile defender of all time is Tayshaun Prince. Regularly used to lock up positions 1-5 in his heyday.

ProfessorMurder

10-08-2015, 08:26 PM

The most versatile defender of all time is Tayshaun Prince. Regularly used to lock up positions 1-5 in his heyday.
Wut? 5s? :roll:

3ball

10-08-2015, 08:40 PM

Cooper defended Isiah, Dantley, Mullin, Gervin, Sleepy Floyd, Dale Ellis, Erving, Drexler, Stockton, Aguirre, so on...

You got Larry Bird... Cooper did a better job on him

MJ guarded all these guys too and he guarded Magic in the 1991 Finals for 14 of 20 quarters (70%), while thoroughly outplaying him:

JORDAN IN 1991 FINALS... 33/7/11 on 56%
MAGIC. IN 1991 FINALS... 19/7/13 on 48%

It's clear that MJ was a more versatile defender than Cooper given what happened in the 1991 Finals vs. Magic.. Cooper NEVER had the burden of guarding a top 10 all-time, 6'9" player for an entire series - Cooper was a bench player.

And considering MJ carried a 300% larger offensive burden than than Cooper and 100% more than Moncrief while still playing DPOY defense like they did, we know MJ was the FAR superior defender - imagine if he had the tiny offensive burden they had and could be a specialist like they were - please don't post offeensive stats for Moncrief - MJ's offensive burden was literally 100% more.
.

rmt

10-08-2015, 08:41 PM

The most versatile defender of all time is Tayshaun Prince. Regularly used to lock up positions 1-5 in his heyday.

I'd like to see Tayshaun try to guard any good (true) big man. They'd blow on him and he'd fall over since he's so light.

I'll put in a word for Bowen - guarded perimeter PFs like Dirk to SFs like Lebron to PGs like Nash/Paul.

3ball

10-08-2015, 08:44 PM

who can you use the most different ways in any given system?

Virtually all defenders play spot-duty on a different position from time to time... However, the defenders that truly have versatility are the ones that served as the PRIMARY defender on different positions from game to game - by primary defender, I mean the defender starts the game defending said player and serves as their primary defender for most of the game.

Other than the 1998 ECF when Pippen started out several games guarding Mark Jackson and served as Mark's main defender, Pippen was never the primary defender on PG's, SG's or PF's.. Ever.. He was only the primary defender on SF's.

Otoh, players like Rodman served as the primary defenders on multiple positions, including Center, PF and SF... MJ was the primary defender on SG's, SF's, and also PG's, including Magic (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713075&postcount=45), Gary Payton (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meL62CUehuw), Reggie Miller, Isiah Thomas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9MfhFFE7fc), Clyde Drexler, John Stockton (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOuMwmXtgd0), Kevin Johnson (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6K2rBgOqGCw), Tim Hardaway (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9ouMPqEk-s), Rod Strickland (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3JqY3CECW8), etc., etc.

Since guys like Rodman and MJ could be the primary defender on 3 different positions compared to Pippen's 1 position, they are more versatile and superior defenders... I guess that's why before new fans started revising history, it was common knowledge at the time (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s), that MJ was his team's best defender.

3ball

10-08-2015, 08:48 PM

Pau Gasol, easy.

-3ball

Gasol was great right away, so if we're drafting him to 100 teams, he would do better on a greater number of teams than a player like Pippen, who needed a ton of development, and therefore could only do well on the right teams where that development would be realized.. (i.e. his 7 ppg rookie capability would get buried on the 1988 Laker bench, or any good team, so he needed to land on a bad team with the right environment, which he got with the Bulls).

So out of all those teams, it's a good thing Pippen happened to land on the goat's team.. Yet a lot of people think it's a coincidence that he turned out the way he did... :roll:

It's not close when you consider Pippen's WOAT 2nd option performance:

1988 ECSF:.. 9 ppg on 42%
1989 ECF:... 10 ppg on 40%
1996 Finals: 15 ppg on 34%
1998 Finals: 15 ppg on 41%

Then he had the epic choke in Game 7 of 1990 ECF, which cost the Bulls their first championship - they would've beaten the Blazers in the Finals since the Pistons beat the Blazers in 6, but needed 7 and Pippen choke to beat Bulls.

Hamtaro CP3KDKG

10-08-2015, 08:53 PM

He doesn't have the body of work as others been named but Draymond Green still deserves to be called.

Top 3 is KG, Rodman and Bobby Jones in that order

SHAQisGOAT

10-08-2015, 08:54 PM

MJ guarded all these guys too and he guarded Magic in the 1991 Finals for 14 of 20 quarters (70%), while thoroughly outplaying him:

Jordan in 1991 Finals: 33/7/11 on 56%
Magic. in 1991 Finals: 19/7/13 on 48%

It's clear that MJ was the more versatile defender given what happened in the 1991 Finals vs. Magic.. Cooper NEVER had the burden of guarding a top 10 all-time, 6'9" player for an entire series - Cooper was a bench player.

And considering MJ carried a 300% larger offensive burden than than Cooper and 100% more than Moncrief while still playing DPOY defense like they did, we know MJ was the FAR superior defender - imagine if he had the tiny offensive burden they had and could be a specialist like they were - please don't post offeensive stats for Moncrief - MJ's offensive burden was literally 100% more.

Let's act like Pippen wasn't even there, huh? :rolleyes: We all know your agenda by now... Gimme a break.

1st of all, Magic's not a legit 6'9, while for example, Coop was the main defender on Bird - a legit 6'9 player - in the 1984 Finals, playing 37.4 MPG. For that series, next player guarding Bird the most was Worthy, Lakers' starting SF who only played 1.7 more minutes per game than Coop, and when they were both on the court together, Mike was the one guarding Bird the most.
Is Bird not a top10 all-time player? :rolleyes:

And yea, Jordan was more versatile just because he guarded Magic or something, or because Coop was a bench player :rolleyes:

Plus, again, how about Bird mostly killing MJ when Mike tried to guard him, while Coop was one of the best Bird defenders?

And I'm not going into that whole offensive burden here, I'm judging just this "thing", not going off on hypotheticals like those... If you always go that route, most discussions would be TOO skewed.

sdot_thadon

10-08-2015, 09:38 PM

Virtually all defenders play spot-duty on a different position from time to time... However, the defenders that truly have versatility are the ones that served as the PRIMARY defender on different positions from game to game - by primary defender, I mean the defender starts the game defending said player and serves as their primary defender for most of the game.

Other than the 1998 ECF when Pippen started out several games guarding Mark Jackson and served as Mark's main defender, Pippen was never the primary defender on PG's, SG's or PF's.. Ever.. He was only the primary defender on SF's.

Otoh, players like Rodman served as the primary defenders on multiple positions, including Center, PF and SF... MJ was the primary defender on SG's, SF's, and also PG's, including Magic (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713075&postcount=45), Gary Payton (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meL62CUehuw), Reggie Miller, Isiah Thomas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9MfhFFE7fc), Clyde Drexler, John Stockton (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOuMwmXtgd0), Kevin Johnson (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6K2rBgOqGCw), Tim Hardaway (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9ouMPqEk-s), Rod Strickland (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3JqY3CECW8), etc., etc.

Since guys like Rodman and MJ could be the primary defender on 3 different positions compared to Pippen's 1 position, they are more versatile and superior defenders... I guess that's why before new fans started revising history, it was common knowledge at the time (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s), that MJ was his team's best defender.
:oldlol: I love it. Sorry bro, but Mj doesn't have as much relevance here as pippen; cut the bullshit. Pippen was used all over the floor, specifically during the 2nd 3peat as needed. While Mj was only used in the backcourt and occasionally on the wing. Pippen was used in the backcourt or the post, big difference as far as versatility is concerned. Way too many posts citing guys who deserved to be recognized for you to still be talking about Mj.

Nobody believes you, you need more people.

***oh, BTW nice meltdown in the other thread.

GrapeApe

10-08-2015, 10:05 PM

Gasol was great right away, so if we're drafting him to 100 teams, he would do better on a greater number of teams than a player like Pippen, who needed a ton of development, and therefore could only do well on the right teams where that development would be realized.. (i.e. his 7 ppg rookie capability would get buried on the 1988 Laker bench, or any good team, so he needed to land on a bad team with the right environment, which he got with the Bulls).

So out of all those teams, it's a good thing Pippen happened to land on the goat's team.. Yet a lot of people think it's a coincidence that he turned out the way he did... :roll:

It's not close when you consider Pippen's WOAT 2nd option performance:

1988 ECSF:.. 9 ppg on 42%
1989 ECF:... 10 ppg on 40%
1996 Finals: 15 ppg on 34%
1998 Finals: 15 ppg on 41%

Then he had the epic choke in Game 7 of 1990 ECF, which cost the Bulls their first championship - they would've beaten the Blazers in the Finals since the Pistons beat the Blazers in 6, but needed 7 and Pippen choke to beat Bulls.

Again with that nonsense? The 2008 Hawks pushed the Celtics to 7 games and the Celtics beat the Lakers in 6, so I guess that means the Hawks would have beaten the Lakers, right? The 2012 Pacers pushed the Heat to 6 games and OKC lost to the Heat in 5, so the Pacers would have beaten OKC right? The 2007 Warriors beat the team with the best record in the NBA, why didn't they go on to win the championship? I could go on and on with more ridiculous transitive property logic.

masonanddixon

10-08-2015, 10:50 PM

Of anyone I can think of who I have actually seen it would be Kirilenko and Marion. They could legitimately guard all five positions and guard any sort of player and for the entirety of a game.

3ball

10-08-2015, 11:55 PM

The 2008 Hawks pushed the Celtics to 7 games and the Celtics beat the Lakers in 6, so I guess that means the Hawks would have beaten the Lakers, right?

Probably, especially if they played them in the 1st Round before teams really get in a groove...

Kobe's 2008 Lakers weren't that great until they had a healthy Bynum.. That's why they won the next 2 years.. But in 2008, the Celtics ran roughshod over them.

The 2012 Pacers pushed the Heat to 6 games and OKC lost to the Heat in 5, so the Pacers would have beaten OKC right?

Probably... 2012 OKC was one of the dumbest teams with some of the worst chemistry to ever make a Finals..

Infact, they were almost certainly the dumbest team... The stacked Heat weren't the only team that would've beaten them that year.. Indiana showed they were a better team than OKC in 2012 - as they showed in their tough battle against the Heat, they were more capable against the best competition.
.

3ball

10-08-2015, 11:59 PM

Pippen was used all over the floor

Except you're lying.. Pippen guarded PF's as often as Jordan did - so almost never... Pippen almost never guarded PG's either.. Pippen only guarded SF's.. Those are the facts.

Whereas MJ guarded PG's, SG's and SF's on a regular basis and was the primary defender on these positions, while Pippen was only the primary defender of SF's.. Those are the facts.

But regardless of who you think was the more versatile defender, MJ was the superior defender.. Before new fans like you started revising history, MJ's status as the best defender on his team was common knowledge:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s

97 bulls

10-09-2015, 12:15 AM

The most versatile defender ever is Pippen. He was great in the post, on man defense, and help defense. As well as anchoring a defense.

97 bulls

10-09-2015, 12:23 AM

CavaliersFTW

10-09-2015, 12:27 AM

The most versatile defender ever is Pippen. He was great in the post, on man defense, and help defense. As well as anchoring a defense.
You've seen the careers of Bobby Jones then have you? Gus Johnson?

Perhaps it'd be more honest to say the most versatile defender you've seen is Pippen. Rather than ever. To say that conclusively you'd have to have seen every player ever.

97 bulls

10-09-2015, 12:53 AM

You've seen the careers of Bobby Jones then have you? Gus Johnson?

Perhaps it'd be more honest to say the most versatile defender you've seen is Pippen. Rather than ever. To say that conclusively you'd have to have seen every player ever.
I remember Bobby Jones being a lockdown man defender. Never saw Gus Johnson.

Would you disagree that Pippen is the most versitle defender ever? Based on the criteria I laid out

CavaliersFTW

10-09-2015, 01:07 AM

I remember Bobby Jones being a lockdown man defender. Never saw Gus Johnson.

Would you disagree that Pippen is the most versitle defender ever? Based on the criteria I laid out
I wouldn't say, because I've not seen everyone ever. I'm not sure there are many people even qualified to answer that, even based on your criteria you layed out.

Best you or I could ever say is best man defender "I've seen" or "I know of" right?

Gus Johnson though, he was a stick out defender at 'all of the above'. How could you or I ever compare him to Pippen though? Only person that could is someone who's seen both Gus, and Pippen. And that's just Gus... I've also no clue how guys like Satch Sanders would compare. Heck I personally haven't even seen enough of recent guys like Kirilenko to be able to compare. I know Pippen is a great and versatile defensive player, but I just can't say anything conclusive in terms of 'ever'. There's too many other guys that at the very least deserve a thorough look into their careers for this topic. Pippen's probably the most accomplished, being that he was on the 50 greatest squad, how about that? But was he actually "better" prime for prime at defending people than a Gus Johnson or whomever else is in the mix? Just not sure.

3ball

10-09-2015, 01:26 AM

Gus Johnson and Kirelinko absolutely compare to Pippen... Pippen is an overrated player on both ends.. Many players believe this.

97 bulls

10-09-2015, 01:28 AM

I wouldn't say, because I've not seen everyone ever. I'm not sure there are many people even qualified to answer that, even based on your criteria you layed out.

Best you or I could ever say is best man defender "I've seen" or "I know of" right?

Gus Johnson though, he was a stick out defender at 'all of the above'. How could you or I ever compare him to Pippen though? Only person that could is someone who's seen both Gus, and Pippen. And that's just Gus... I've also no clue how guys like Satch Sanders would compare. Heck I personally haven't even seen enough of recent guys like Kirilenko to be able to compare. I know Pippen is a great and versatile defensive player, but I just can't say anything conclusive in terms of 'ever'. There's too many other guys that at the very least deserve a thorough look into their careers for this topic. Pippen's probably the most accomplished, being that he was on the 50 greatest squad, how about that? But was he actually "better" prime for prime at defending people than a Gus Johnson or whomever else is in the mix? Just not sure.
Fair enough. I can't disagree with anything you stated. So I'm gonna redact my statement. Scottie Pippen is the most versitle defender I've ever SEEN.

3ball

10-09-2015, 01:28 AM

:facepalm

3ball

10-09-2015, 01:28 AM

You've seen the careers of Bobby Jones then have you? Gus Johnson?

Perhaps it'd be more honest to say the most versatile defender you've seen is Pippen. Rather than ever. To say that conclusively you'd have to have seen every player ever.

:confusedshrug:

Pippen is an overratted defender... All I remember his him getting dropped off by.. everyone.. I remember when Mashburn took him for 50, in Chicago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRR3Jx8RvoI&t=2m03s

And we all remember Kobe with the goat ankle-break on Pippen - Pippen can't handle a quick wing like that, and he rarely needed to, since he rarely ever guarded point guards or SG's.

Whereas MJ guarded the 1-3 regularly, since he was a big 2-guard in between the 1 and 3 positions, so he had the best capacity to defend the 1-3 at a goat level - by comparison, the larger, slower Pippen simply can't defend point-guards or SG's such like young Kobe or Westbrook the way MJ did.. MJ was accustomed to guarding much quicker players regularly, such as Mark Price, Isiah Thomas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9MfhFFE7fc), Clyde Drexler, John Stockton (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOuMwmXtgd0), Kevin Johnson (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6K2rBgOqGCw), Tim Hardaway (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9ouMPqEk-s), Rod Strickland (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3JqY3CECW8), etc., etc.

Pippen never had to guard the other teams best guard - that was MJ's responsibility.. Pippen got to stick to SF's.
.

97 bulls

10-09-2015, 01:37 AM

:confusedshrug:

Pippen is an overratted defender... All I remember his him getting dropped off by.. everyone.. I remember when Mashburn took him for 50, in Chicago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRR3Jx8RvoI&t=2m03s

And we all remember Kobe with the goat ankle-break on Pippen - Pippen can't handle a quick wing like that, and he rarely needed to, since he rarely ever guarded point guards or SG's.

Whereas MJ guarded the 1-3 regularly, since he was a big 2-guard stuck right in between the 1 and the 3, so he had the best capacity to defend the 1-3 at a goat level - by comparison, the larger, slower Pippen simply can't defend point-guards or 2-guards such like young Kobe or Westbrook the way MJ would and did.. MJ was accustomed to guarding much quicker players regularly, such as Mark Price, Isiah Thomas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9MfhFFE7fc), Clyde Drexler, John Stockton (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOuMwmXtgd0), Kevin Johnson (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6K2rBgOqGCw), Tim Hardaway (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9ouMPqEk-s), Rod Strickland (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3JqY3CECW8), etc., etc.

Pippen never had to guard the other teams best guard - that was MJ's responsibility.. Pippen got to stick to SF's.
Get this clown outta here. What was the name of that rookie that lit up Jordan???? Does that make him a bad defender????

Better yet. If i were to post bad offensive games by Jordan, does that mean hes an overrated offensive player?????

3ball

10-09-2015, 02:43 AM

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-09-2015/aafrfe.gif

Get this clown outta here. What was the name of that rookie that lit up Jordan???? Does that make him a bad defender????

Better yet. If i were to post bad offensive games by Jordan, does that mean hes an overrated offensive player?????

Show me where someone took MJ for 50... Whereas, the previous post showed that it happened to Pippen pretty conspicuously and he got dropped off for 30 and 40 far more often than MJ too.

The video below shows Grant Hill owning Pippen off-the-dribble possession after possession:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BP16tRyYnlU&t=3m08s

Again, Pippen CANNOT stay with point guards or quick, ballhandling wings like Hill, Kobe, or Westbrook.. Otoh, MJ was accustomed to guarding great ballhandlers and much quicker players regularly, such as Mark Price, Isiah Thomas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9MfhFFE7fc), Clyde Drexler, John Stockton (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOuMwmXtgd0), Kevin Johnson (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6K2rBgOqGCw), Tim Hardaway (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9ouMPqEk-s), Rod Strickland (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3JqY3CECW8), etc., etc... Pippen never had to guard the other teams best guard - that was MJ's responsibility.. Pippen got to stick to SF's..

And at the end of that video, notice how MJ has to guard Hill after Pippen gets in foul trouble - Hill can't take MJ off-the-dribble, so he posts up inefficiently with long setup time and wild shots - Hill was already on fire by the time MJ took over, but MJ still makes him work much harder with his superior aggressiveness and strength.. The difference and superiority of MJ's defense is obvious, even at 35.

Duffy Pratt

10-09-2015, 02:45 AM

They were on the same team. If there was a guy capable of going off for 40 or 50, and Jordan was the better defender, then why was Pippin guarding him?

3ball

10-09-2015, 02:47 AM

If there was a guy capable of going off for 40 or 50, and Jordan was the better defender, then why was Pippin guarding him?

Mashburn wasn't capable of going off for 50.. Only against Pippen.. That was Mashburn's career high.. Guys went off on Pippen a lot.. Similar to the Kobe ankle-break, the video below shows Grant Hill owning Pippen off-the-dribble over and over:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BP16tRyYnlU&t=3m08s

Pippen simply couldn't handle quick ballhandlers like Hill, Kobe or Westbrook, which is why he rarely guarded point guards or SG's... He mostly defended SF's.. Otoh, MJ was accustomed to guarding point guards and quicker players, such as Mark Price, Isiah Thomas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9MfhFFE7fc), Clyde Drexler, John Stockton (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOuMwmXtgd0), Kevin Johnson (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6K2rBgOqGCw), Tim Hardaway (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9ouMPqEk-s), Rod Strickland (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3JqY3CECW8), etc.. It was MJ's responsibility to defend the other team's best guard, while Pippen stuck to SF's.. MJ was a big 2-guard in between the 1 and 3 positions, so he guarded the 1 through 3 spots regularly and had the best capacity to defend them all a goat level.

And at the end of that video, notice how MJ has to guard Hill after Pippen gets in foul trouble - Hill can't take MJ off-the-dribble, so he posts up inefficiently with long setup time and wild shots - Hill was already on fire by the time MJ took over, but MJ still makes him work much harder with his superior aggressiveness and strength.. The difference and superiority of MJ's defense is obvious, even at 35.
.

Gileraracer

10-09-2015, 03:10 AM

Lebron? Comeon (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zK9wLWF8TXo)

sdot_thadon

10-09-2015, 08:50 AM

Except you're lying.. Pippen guarded PF's as often as Jordan did - so almost never... Pippen almost never guarded PG's either.. Pippen only guarded SF's.. Those are the facts.

Whereas MJ guarded PG's, SG's and SF's on a regular basis and was the primary defender on these positions, while Pippen was only the primary defender of SF's.. Those are the facts.

But regardless of who you think was the more versatile defender, MJ was the superior defender.. Before new fans like you started revising history, MJ's status as the best defender on his team was common knowledge:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s

Then there's Chicago Bulls forward Scottie Pippen, who can do all that as well as anyone. But his passion and talent for shutting down opponents has, so far during these NBA playoffs, turned him into the defensive equivalent of his more offensive-minded teammate, Michael Jordan.

And while Rodman has taken credit for keeping Malone in check, the Jazz say it has been Pippen's versatility -- guarding everyone from Malone to center Greg Ostertag to point guard John Stockton -- that has created the greatest problems. So much so that the Jazz complained Pippen was breaking the illegal-defense rules.

"Scottie is floating -- you can use whatever term you want to use for it," said Stockton. "If he's going to come off his man, he needs to come all the way to double-team or it's illegal defense, but we didn't give him a chance to do that. You put a guy like Scottie Pippen, with his understanding of how to play defense, and you let him {do that}, he's going to affect the game. And he certainly did."

"Scottie sets the tempo defensively," Jordan said. "The more active he is, the better we are. His confidence is just as strong as mine, his competitiveness is just as strong as mine. It's like playing with a twin brother. . . .

"Scottie has been the key to this team the last two, three years," Jackson said. "There's been a lot of insistence from Michael and myself that this guy is too invaluable for you to get rid of him. I don't know if there's a better defensive player."

That's just excerpts from one article, told ya there's plenty more written or video man. ( i admit some of that doesnt pertain to my point, but i felt yiu needed to see it....) Pippen guarded more positions than Mj period. Mj has a case for Goat perimeter defender for sure, so does scottie. However Mj doesn't hold a candle to scottie when it comes to versatility. Choke on that.

feyki

10-09-2015, 09:16 AM

Why not? :confusedshrug:

He defended power forwards ofc, even some centers, and at some point (after 1985 or so) he was the one who was mostly guarding the best scoring SF's, for the Celtics... At some point or another he defended dudes like Wilkins, Dantley Worthy, King, Aguirre... That way Bird could continue to play sort of like a free safety (how he was most impactful) while also not wearing himself out as much, plus Larry started to have back-problems and such, so Kevin was better fitted to guard some of those players anyways.
Most of the time McHale was doing a very good job at it, while also averaging around 2 BPG and half a steal.

He's one of the most versatile defenders ever to me, one of main the reasons that made him great on defense in his best years... He wasn't making all-defensive 1st and such, due to him being a big-time defensive anchor or great a paint-protector, I'll tell you that...

Versatile defender means "reaches everywhere at defence , elite help team defender , need to be quick " , Mchale was slow more than Shaq. Shaq wasn't versatile defender and Mchale wasn't by far.

Versatile defender prototype numbers must be nearly minimum 1 block and 1 steal . Kevin Mchale max steal numbers 0.5 , he's averaged 0.4 steals at him prime(84-89) .

Kareem's prime - 3.4 blk , 1.2 stl

Admiral's prime - 3.8 blk , 1.7 stl

Ewing's prime - 2.5 blk , 1.1 stl

Alonzo's prime - 3.05 blk , 0.75 stl

Garnett's prime - 1.6 blk , 1.4 stl

Ben Wallace's prime - 2.8 blk , 1.6 stl

Hakeem's prime - 3.5 blk , 1.9 stl

Old Thurmond - 2.9 blk , 0.7 stl

97 bulls

10-09-2015, 10:57 AM

Show me where someone took MJ for 50... Whereas, the previous post showed that it happened to Pippen pretty conspicuously and he got dropped off for 30 and 40 far more often than MJ too.

The video below shows Grant Hill owning Pippen off-the-dribble possession after possession:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BP16tRyYnlU&t=3m08s

Again, Pippen CANNOT stay with point guards or quick, ballhandling wings like Hill, Kobe, or Westbrook.. Otoh, MJ was accustomed to guarding great ballhandlers and much quicker players regularly, such as Mark Price, Isiah Thomas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9MfhFFE7fc), Clyde Drexler, John Stockton (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOuMwmXtgd0), Kevin Johnson (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6K2rBgOqGCw), Tim Hardaway (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9ouMPqEk-s), Rod Strickland (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3JqY3CECW8), etc., etc... Pippen never had to guard the other teams best guard - that was MJ's responsibility.. Pippen got to stick to SF's..

And at the end of that video, notice how MJ has to guard Hill after Pippen gets in foul trouble - Hill can't take MJ off-the-dribble, so he posts up inefficiently with long setup time and wild shots - Hill was already on fire by the time MJ took over, but MJ still makes him work much harder with his superior aggressiveness and strength.. The difference and superiority of MJ's defense is obvious, even at 35.
Let me add some backstory to that Hill/Pippen matchup. It was the end of the season. The Bulls had sown up Homecourt. The Pistons were trying to secure a spot in the playoffs. Not to mention the Bulls were up by 20+ points then they let up. Hill got hot, Pippen was already in foul trouble and couldn't be aggressive defensively. And its not like Jordan did much better either. He quickly picked up two fouls as well guarding Hill. I think the Bulls were just trying to finish the game and thus let the Pistons back in.

As far as the rest of your drivel...... For the most part both Jordan and Pippen defended their position. I even sent you a link to a website MADE BY A JORDAN STAN LIKE YOURSELF in which he even says that both players guarded their position. Why keep posting the same nonsense????? When you know its not true.

97 bulls

10-09-2015, 11:02 AM

And to add. Often Pippens man would be the best scorer because it just so happened that the oppositions SF was their teams go to guy. Compare the Forwards Pippen checked to the SGs Jordan checked.

3ball

10-09-2015, 03:54 PM

Compare the Forwards Pippen checked to the SGs Jordan checked.

You can't just include SG's... MJ guarded some SF's as their primary, all-game defender, and he guarded a TON of point guards as their primary, all-game defender.

So when you make a list of guys MJ defended, make sure you include Magic, Gary Payton, Isiah, Rod Strickland, Tim Hardaway - MJ was the primary defender on all these players.

Otoh, Pippen's list only includes SF's, because PG's and SG's were generally too quick for Pippen to guard them all game... Other than Mark Jackson, the slowest PG of all time, Pippen was only the primary defender on SF's.. Accordingly, Pippen is a less versatile, primary defender.

Anytime the Bulls needed someone from the 1-3 positions locked down FOR AN ENTIRE GAME, Jordan was your man... MJ had primary defensive capability on PG's, SG's and SF's, whereas Pippen was only the primary defender on SF's - therefore Pippen was the less versatile, primary defender.
.

3ball

10-09-2015, 03:55 PM

Mj has a case for Goat perimeter defender for sure, so does scottie.

So you're saying MJ and Scottie are neck-and-neck in defensive prowess... However, MJ carried a 50%-150% more offensive burden.. So that means MJ would be a FAR better defender if you reduced his offensive burden and made him more of a specialist like Pippen was.. But why do we have to reduce MJ's burden?... We can chew gum and walk at the same time - given his significantly larger offensive burden, MJ was the far better defender.

However Mj doesn't hold a candle to scottie when it comes to versatility.

SF is the only position Pippen could defend for an entire game as the primary, all-game defender - this is a fact - other than Mark Jackson, the slowest point guard of all time, SF is the only position Pippen EVER guarded for an entire game.. Therefore, he's a less versatile, primary defender.. Point guards and SG's were too quick for Scottie, so he was never the primary, all-game defender on them.

Otoh, MJ was the more versatile, primary defender - he was a guard and far quicker, so he was frequently the primary, all-game defender on point guards, such as Gary Payton, Magic Johnson, Tim Hardaway, Isiah, and Rod Strickland.. Anytime the Bulls needed someone from the 1-3 positions locked down FOR AN ENTIRE GAME, Jordan was your man... Otoh, Pippen was a less versatile primary defender - SF is the only position he could guard for an entire game, and that's the only position he ever DID guard for an entire game.

Fallen Angel

10-09-2015, 04:04 PM

Gary Payton
Dennis Johnson
Jason Kidd
Scottie Pippen
Lebron James
Kevin Garnett
Anthony Davis
Hakeem Olajuwon

97 bulls

10-09-2015, 05:28 PM

You can't just include SG's... MJ guarded some SF's as their primary, all-game defender, and he guarded a TON of point guards as their primary, all-game defender.*
No he didn't guard a ton of PGs. You're making this stuff up. And showing a few clips where he just happened to be guarding a PG is disingenuous. The only PG I remember Jordan guarding as his assignment was Strickland. And he wasnt ultra athletic.

Otoh, Pippen's list only includes SF's, because PG's and SG's were generally too quick for Pippen to guard them all game... Other than Mark Jackson, the slowest PG of all time, Pippen was only the primary defender on SF's.. Accordingly, Pippen is a less versatile, primary defender.
Pippen guarded Magic and Penny Hardaway. And shut both down. Hell Hardaway was just as athletic and quick as any 6'0 PG. He just was 6'7.

I would like to get a response from 3ball on this link. I sent it to him before. Either he forgot it, never read it, or he (3ball) is just a liar. You can't question the author because he's a Jordan stan who made a website dedicated to defending the legacy of Michael Jordan. Why? I dont know.
http://chasing23.com/did-scottie-pippen-always-guard-the-other-teams-best-player/

Pointguard

10-09-2015, 05:29 PM

The most versatile defender ever is Pippen. He was great in the post, on man defense, and help defense. As well as anchoring a defense.
That's why I have KG as the most versatile. That and his communication was the best I ever seen. He anchored the best best defense I ever saw and he didn't have people who were known for defense to do it. This and his intensity was contagious. There were very few people getting in the paint on that team.

3ball

10-09-2015, 05:30 PM

97 bulls

10-09-2015, 05:54 PM

You guys are fos.. You give too much credit to spot-duty and one-off possessions.

Pippen was the primary, all-game defender on SF's only, therefore he was a less versatile, primary defender than MJ.

Otoh, MJ was the primary defender on PG's, SG's and SF's - that makes him the more versatile, primary defender.. End of story.. Stop being so biased guys.
.
I asked you a question. Did you read the link and what are your thoughts on it. Another Jordan fan says that the only non SGs Jordan checked were Tim Hardaway and Rod Stickland.

3ball

10-09-2015, 05:56 PM

No he didn't guard a ton of PGs. And showing a few clips where he just happened to be guarding a PG is disingenuous.

The video I posted weren't "clips" of MJ defending point guards... MJ was matched up against Gary Payton from the TIP-OFF in Games 3 and 5 of the NBA Finals and was the main defender throughout the game - I queued the tape for you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meL62CUehuw&t=0m48s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFiqeJcgXfg

MJ was also the main defender and matched up from the tip-off against Isiah Thomas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9MfhFFE7fc&t=0m28s) and Rod Strickland (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3JqY3CECW8).. And we all know he was matched up from tip-off against Magic, when he guarded Magic for 14 of 20 quarters (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713075&postcount=45) (70%) in the 1991 Finals.

So again - MJ was the primary, all-game defender on PG's, SG's, and SF's, whereas Pippen was only the primary defender on SF's.. Therefore, MJ was the more versatile, primary defender.

I would like to get a response from 3ball on this link. I sent it to him before.

http://chasing23.com/did-scottie-pippen-always-guard-the-other-teams-best-player/

Can you ****ing read?... The site backs me up:

Contrary to popular opinion, Michael Jordan – not Scottie Pippen – most often drew the opposition’s toughest perimeter assignment. However, it was close: Jordan did so 8 times, while Scottie Pippen assumed this responsibility 7 times.
The site provides a table showing all the playoffs series and the best perimeter players in each series - MJ guarded the best perimeter player MOST OF THE TIME.. Learn to read..

97 bulls

10-09-2015, 06:05 PM

[QUOTE=3ball]The video I posted weren't "clips" of MJ defending point guards... MJ was matched up against Gary Payton from the TIP-OFF in Games 3 and 5 of the NBA Finals and was the main defender throughout the game - I queued the tape for you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meL62CUehuw&t=0m48s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFiqeJcgXfg

MJ was also the main defender and matched up from the tip-off against Isiah Thomas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9MfhFFE7fc&t=0m28s) and Rod Strickland (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3JqY3CECW8).. And we all know he was matched up from tip-off against Magic, when he guarded Magic for 14 of 20 quarters (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713075&postcount=45) (70%) in the 1991 Finals.

So again - MJ was the primary, all-game defender on PG's, SG's, and SF's, whereas Pippen was only the primary defender on SF's.. Therefore, MJ was the more versatile, primary defender.

Can you ****ing read?... The site backs me up:

[I][INDENT]Contrary to popular opinion, Michael Jordan

3ball

10-09-2015, 06:23 PM

Jordan wasn't primary defender on Isaiah Thomas and others

Here's video of MJ being the main defender and matched up FROM TIP-OFF against Gary Payton, Isiah Thomas, and Rod Strickland:

Isiah Game 3 of 1989 ECF: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9MfhFFE7fc&t=0m28s
Strickland Game 2 of 1997 ECSF: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3JqY3CECW8
Payton Game 3 of 1996 Finals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meL62CUehuw&t=0m48s
Payton Game 5 of 1996 Finals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFiqeJcgXfg

And of course, the most obvious is when MJ was the primary defender on Magic and guarded him for 14 of 20 quarters (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713075&postcount=45) (70%) in the 1991 Finals.

Pippen guarded Juwan Howard and Chris Webber in 97. They both were better than Strickland.

Pippen never guarded Webber, other than ordinary switching on a screen, which MJ did too.

Pippen was the primary defender on Juwan Howard, who was a small forward in 1997.. Small forward is the only position Pippen was EVER the primary, all-game defender for.. Otoh, MJ was the primary defender on PG's, SG's and SF's - that makes him the more versatile, primary defender and means he had the FAR tougher defensive assignments:

Being the primary defender on point guards like Magic, Payton and Isiah is obviously harder than any assignment Pippen has ever had.

97 bulls

10-09-2015, 06:54 PM

Here's video of MJ being the main defender and matched up FROM TIP-OFF against Gary Payton, Isiah Thomas, and Rod Strickland:

Isiah Game 3 of 1989 ECF: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9MfhFFE7fc&t=0m28s
Nobody cares about 89. The Bulls were champions yet. Pippen was a second year player at this juncture.

Strickland Game 2 of 1997 ECSF: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3JqY3CECW8
I never denied that Jordan defended Strickland.

Payton Game 3 of 1996 Finals[/I]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meL62CUehuw&t=0m48s
Payton Game 5 of 1996 Finals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFiqeJcgXfg

But Harper guardee Payton for most if the series. Hell Jordan only took Payton because Harper got hurt.

And of course, the most obvious is when MJ was the primary defender on Magic and guarded him for 14 of 20 quarters (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713075&postcount=45) (70%) in the 1991 Finals.

Ok. But Pippen did guard him for just about an entire game in a 5 game series. I see no difference between this and Jordan taking Payton for 2 games in a six game series.

Pippen never guarded Webber, other than ordinary switching on a screen, which MJ did too.

Pippen was the primary defender on Juwan Howard, who was a small forward in 1997.. Small forward is the only position Pippen was EVER the primary, all-game defender for.. Otoh, MJ was the primary defender on PG's, SG's and SF's - that makes him the more versatile, primary defender and means he had the FAR tougher defensive assignments:

Again not true. Penny Hardaway was a PG Pippen checked him. Mark Jackson was a PG. Pip checked him. Hell Hersey Hawkins was a damn good SG. And in the games that Jordan checked Payton, Pippen checked Hawkins.

Truth be told in 98 vs Utah, Pippen checked Greg Ostertag who was a center. And basically played the Center postion on defense and the PG on offense. Thats versatility my friend.

Being the primary defender on point guards like Magic, Payton and Isiah is obviously harder than any assignment Pippen has ever had.
Don't see how. Charles Barkley and Penny Hardaway were much tougher assignents than those guys.

3ball

10-09-2015, 07:11 PM

SHAQisGOAT

10-09-2015, 07:39 PM

Versatile defender means "reaches everywhere at defence , elite help team defender , need to be quick " , Mchale was slow more than Shaq. Shaq wasn't versatile defender and Mchale wasn't by far.

Versatile defender prototype numbers must be nearly minimum 1 block and 1 steal . Kevin Mchale max steal numbers 0.5 , he's averaged 0.4 steals at him prime(84-89) .

Kareem's prime - 3.4 blk , 1.2 stl

Admiral's prime - 3.8 blk , 1.7 stl

Ewing's prime - 2.5 blk , 1.1 stl

Alonzo's prime - 3.05 blk , 0.75 stl

Garnett's prime - 1.6 blk , 1.4 stl

Ben Wallace's prime - 2.8 blk , 1.6 stl

Hakeem's prime - 3.5 blk , 1.9 stl

Old Thurmond - 2.9 blk , 0.7 stl

'Means' that? Who says so? That's your definiton, if anything... To me, a versatile defender is mostly considering a player that can guard multiple positions (well). If you say all-around, I'll probably think more of a player who can play good individual defense and also good team defense.
Dude like Bobby Jones was a great versatile and all-around defensive player.

Again, after 1985, McHale was mostly put on the opponent's best scoring forward (PF or SF), and he even guarded some centers who weren't very big/physical, when the C's went with a smaller lineup...
Dude guarded players such as Barkley, Wilkins, Hakeem, Dantley, Worthy, Karl Malone, Aguirre, Sampson, Daugherty, Cummings... and not just here and there, but as their main defender for a certain game/series.

Yes, McHale wasn't that type of impactful defensive anchor nor big-men paint protector type of defender, but dude could guard various types of forwards and some centers pretty well, while averaging like 2 BPG and 0.5 SPG, making all-defensive 1st and such...
Guess he wasn't a very versatile defender though :rolleyes: :confusedshrug:

**** you talking about, McHale was slower than Shaq?! Diesel was an athletic freak but also pushing 300 lbs, while McHale was like 210-220... You put Shaq on a dude like Wilkins and Nique blows by him every single time, while Kevin could keep him in check plenty with his mobility and length.

Again, why it gotta be 1 steal and 1 block per game? Because you say so? Yea, them prototype numbers :rolleyes:
Dennis Rodman never exactly reached 1 steal/1 block per game... Guess he wasn't a big-time versatile defender, huh? :rolleyes:

97 bulls

10-09-2015, 07:46 PM

Pippen was a primary, all-game defender on SF's only, except for 3 games against the slowest PG of all time, Mark Jackson, and 1 game against Penny Hardaway..

He was also the primary defender on lesser SG's - but only when the PG was the better half and MJ was guarding him, leaving the lesser SG for Pippen (as you pointed out with Hawkins when MJ guarded Payton).

Those are the facts... And Pippen was never the primary defender on Barkley or any PF... Ever.

Remember, we're talking about who is the more versatile, capable PRIMARY, ALL-GAME defender.. Who had more capability to defend PG's, SG's, and SF's for an entire game?

That's obviously Jordan, who was the primary defender on Magic, Isiah, and Payton - literally the best PG's of all time, while Pippen can only play spot-duty on these guys.
.
Pip guarded Hardaway the whole series my friend. And Barkley as well. And if what he did to Mark Jackson and the Pacers was soooo easy, why didn't all teams do it? Not only that, but Magic, Payton, and Strickland were bigger PGs almost hybrids. They were these extra quick ultra athletic players like Rose and Westbrook today. Tim Hardaway was nowhere near the athlete he wasin the earlier 90s by 96 and 97.

The bottom line is both were awesome defensively. I just think you, like always undemine Pippen. Pippen guarded PGs (Hardaway) SGs (Hawkins), SF (obviously) PFs (Barkley and Juwan Howard) and Cs (Ostertag) if thats not versatile then I don't know what is.

3ball

10-09-2015, 08:08 PM

Pippen guarded PFs (Barkley and Juwan Howard) and Cs (Ostertag) if thats not versatile then I don't know what is.

Pippen did one-off, spot duty on all those guys - he was never the all-game, primary defender on those guys.. MJ had to guard Vlade in the 1991 Finals, but you don't hear me bragging about it because he wasn't the primary defender.

The bottom line - MJ was a more versatile primary/all-game defender than Pippen, based on his far greater experience and capability as a primary defender on PG's, and equivalent/superior defense in SG's/SF's.

Otoh, Pippen is the more versatile spot-duty defender, based on his slightly more frequent occurrences playing spot-duty on PF's... :confusedshrug: .. I think that sums it up.

3ball

10-09-2015, 08:12 PM

97 bulls

10-09-2015, 09:36 PM

Pippen did one-off, spot duty on all those guys - he was never the all-game, primary defender on those had to guard Vlade in the 1991 Finals, but you don't hear me bragging about it because he wasn't the primary defender.

You can't brag about it cuz Vlade ate him up and he didnt do it the whole game much less a series like Pippen did vs Ostertag and the Jazz

The bottom line - MJ was a more versatile primary/all-game defender than Pippen, based on his far greater experience and capability as a primary defender on PG's, and equivalent/superior defense in SG's/SF's.
I do agree that Jordan was better suited to guard small quick PGs, but truth be told, neither really did that. The guys you mentioned (Magic, Payton, and Strickland) weren't uber athletic.
Jackson normally put Randy Brown on those Robert Pack type players.

Otoh, Pippen is the more versatile spot-duty defender, based on his slightly more frequent occurrences playing spot-duty on PF's... :confusedshrug: .. I think that sums it up.
I don't see how Pippen gurding a player for an entire game is considered."spot duty", but Jordan doing it is legit. If you're guarding a guy for over half the game, I'm gonna say thats your main assignment. Yes there are switches and rotations etc. But you get the gist of it.

97 bulls

10-09-2015, 09:37 PM

.
Basically, both MJ and Scottie defend the SG/SF positions equally... But MJ's advantage and experience guarding PG's is far greater than Pippen's advantage and experience guarding PF's.

http://media.giphy.com/media/qaFduOMYKkmwE/giphy.gif
I must say this is the most credit you've ever given Pip. Im gonna bow out here. But you're getting there.

DatAsh

10-09-2015, 11:39 PM

From what I've read, and from what I've seen Russell and Garnett stand in a tier on their own, and Russell is probably in a tier of his own. I would also add Olajuwon, Rodman, Pippen and Lebron. Of the perimeter guys, Rodman is likely the most impressive I've seen.

DatAsh

10-09-2015, 11:43 PM

That and his communication was the best I ever seen..

One of KG's greatest strengths as a player imo... an important part of what makes him one of the greatest defenders ever.

juju151111

10-09-2015, 11:44 PM

You can't brag about it cuz Vlade ate him up and he didnt do it the whole game much less a series like Pippen did vs Ostertag and the Jazz

I do agree that Jordan was better suited to guard small quick PGs, but truth be told, neither really did that. The guys you mentioned (Magic, Payton, and Strickland) weren't uber athletic.
Jackson normally put Randy Brown on those Robert Pack type players.

I don't see how Pippen gurding a player for an entire game is considered."spot duty", but Jordan doing it is legit. If you're guarding a guy for over half the game, I'm gonna say thats your main assignment. Yes there are switches and rotations etc. But you get the gist of it.
He guarded Magic, isiah,payton,stockton.

3ball

10-10-2015, 12:49 AM

Basically, both MJ and Scottie defend the SG/SF positions equally... But MJ's advantage and experience guarding PG's is far greater than Pippen's advantage and experience guarding PF's.

I must say this is the most credit you've ever given Pip. Im gonna bow out here. But you're getting there.

Not sure how you interpreted my post as props for Pippen - the post said MJ guarded point guards much more often than Pippen guarded PF's, which made MJ the more versatile defender, since they both guard SG/SF's equally.

That means MJ is the more versatile defender, based on his bigger advantage and experience guarding point guards, then Pippen's advantage and experience guarding PF's.

Prime_Shaq

10-10-2015, 12:55 AM

Olajuwon, Garnett, Rodman, Pippen.
From those I've watched.

GIF REACTION

10-10-2015, 12:56 AM

WCS is going to be in the company of KG/Hakeem/Lebron/Pippen/Rodman in terms of defensive versatility

lil jahlil

10-10-2015, 01:15 AM

Damn, those Bulls teams had great defense in the PG-PF positions.

97 bulls

10-10-2015, 09:17 AM

Not sure how you interpreted my post as props for Pippen - the post said MJ guarded point guards much more often than Pippen guarded PF's, which made MJ the more versatile defender, since they both guard SG/SF's equally.

That means MJ is the more versatile defender, based on his bigger advantage and experience guarding point guards, then Pippen's advantage and experience guarding PF's.
It was sarcasm. You said Jordan Pippen guarded the SG and SF position evenly. Im actually shocked you would acknowledge that.

andgar923

10-10-2015, 09:25 AM

KG imo is the ultimate defender.

He used to shut down point guards on isos, then switch to wings and post players like no other.

3ball

10-10-2015, 03:21 PM

It was sarcasm. You said Jordan Pippen guarded the SG and SF position evenly. Im actually shocked you would acknowledge that.

Pippen guarded small forwards a lot more than MJ, and MJ guarded shooting guards a lot more than Pippen.

Of course, MJ guarded point guards too.. You can say Pippen guarded PF's, but that's a stretch.

FatComputerNerd

10-10-2015, 03:23 PM

Came in this thread just to make sure KG was mentioned.

Was not disappointed! :cheers:

I think the #1 rating has to go to either him or Rodman regarding defensive versatility. (ability to guard multiple if not every position effectively)

IllegalD

10-10-2015, 05:27 PM

LeBron couldn't even make an All Defensive team last season in his prime years. :roll:

3ball

10-10-2015, 05:36 PM

Came in this thread just to make sure KG was mentioned.

KG was versatile, but he mainly guarded PF's and occasionally centers.. He struggled a ton guarding MJ..

In KG and MJ's first meeting when MJ was a Wizard, they were matched up SF vs. SF for the entire game.. MJ scored 35 on Garnett in every way imaginable from the opening tip - at the 4:00 mark, Jordan scores on Garnett for 5 consecutive possessions including blow-by dunk, with the announcers getting more excited each time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=embqhggoep4

Contrastingly, Lebron was never guarded by a prime Garnett.. I doubt he would have the quickness to make it a huge mismatch like MJ did.. After all, guys like Boris Diaw, Gordon Hayward fare well against Lebron defensively.

Harison

10-11-2015, 02:29 AM

KG was versatile, but he mainly guarded PF's and occasionally centers.. He struggled a ton guarding MJ..

In KG and MJ's first meeting when MJ was a Wizard, they were matched up SF vs. SF for the entire game.. MJ scored 35 on Garnett in every way imaginable from the opening tip - at the 4:00 mark, Jordan scores on Garnett for 5 consecutive possessions including blow-by dunk, with the announcers getting more excited each time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=embqhggoep4

Please dont mislead, I watched this full game and it was quite different story.

Jordan scored on Garnett about 12 pts, and not on a good efficiency. Other than few great blowbacks, MJ also made few very hard hail-Mary shots. In other possessions vs KG, Jordan either missed, or had to pass, or straight up lost the ball (five times btw, several of them was because of Garnett's intimidation, GOAT literally looked like a rookie :oldlol:).

Thats why these highlights like you linked can be very misleading, if you dont know what happened through entire game. Like you wouldnt know Garnett also scored on Jordan, a lot, and easily.

Stats for the game:

Garnett: 31/6/7; TS% 66,8 on 21 FGA. ORTG 140, DRTG 116. USG% 32.1

Jordan: 35/6/4; TS% 52,9 on 30 FGA. ORTG 105, DRTG 122. USG% 42.2

Its very easy to see who had a better game. Jordan scored +4 points on much worse efficiency, imagine if KG shot 9 FGA more. MJ dominated ball way more, while had 3 assists less and committed more turnovers.

Both offensively and defensively Garnett was superior SF player in the game. Still it was impressive game for MJ, since he was 38 yrs old, while KG was about to enter his prime.

http://goo.gl/T8XF0R

3ball

10-11-2015, 09:35 AM

Stats for the game:

Jordan: 35/6/4
Garnett: 31/6/7

MJ scored 35 points total, with exactly 14 pts against Garnett on 6-11 FG's (54.5%), 2 assists and 2 TO's.. so he did better vs. Garnett than anyone else.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAYpxH-YU8M

MJ destroyed Garnett - The above link is a youtube video showing every possession MJ had against Garnett... Each play against Garnett is listed below, with video links to each play and cumulative stats at the bottom:

MJ makes jumpshot on Garnett at 0:28 second mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAYpxH-YU8M&t=0m28s)... 1-1 FG

MJ misses jumpshot on Garnett at 1:05 mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAYpxH-YU8M&t=1m05s)... 1-2

MJ turns it over on Garnett at 2:08 mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAYpxH-YU8M&t=2m08s)

MJ drives by Garnett for assist at 2:29 mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAYpxH-YU8M&t=2m29s)

MJ makes crazy hangtime shot on Garnett at 2:59 mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAYpxH-YU8M&t=2m59s)... 2-3

MJ blows by Garnett but misses layup at 3:08 mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAYpxH-YU8M&t=3m08s)... 2-4

MJ misses pull-up jumper at 3:29 mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAYpxH-YU8M&t=3m29s)... 2-5

MJ makes jumper on Garnett at 3:37 mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAYpxH-YU8M&t=3m37s)... 3-6

MJ blows by Garnett for acrobatic left hand layup at 3:44 mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAYpxH-YU8M&t=3m44s).. 4-7

MJ blows by Garnett for dunk at 4:00 mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAYpxH-YU8M&t=4m00s).... 5-8

MJ makes crazy pull-up fadeaway on Garnett at 4:15 mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAYpxH-YU8M&t=4m15s)... 6-9

MJ draws foul on Garnett at 4:30 mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAYpxH-YU8M&t=4m30s).... 2 made FT's

MJ blows by Garnett but misses easy layup at 5:06 mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAYpxH-YU8M&t=5m06s).... 6-10

MJ blows by Garnett and gets assist at 5:27 mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAYpxH-YU8M&t=5m27s)..

MJ misses layup on Garnett at 5:51 mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAYpxH-YU8M&t=5m51s).. 6-11

MJ's stats on Garnett: 14 points... 6-11 FG... 54.5% FG... 2 assists.. 2 TO's

Cali Syndicate

10-11-2015, 09:58 AM

How the hell do you have KG over Lebron? :facepalm
Lebron can shut down every position from elite pg's like Rose to dominant centers like Big Al. You honestly think KG could shut down elite guards like Rose and Parker in the playoffs the way Lebron has? :oldlol:

If lebron could shut down Parker, why didn't he in 07 instead of letting him run rampant on his way to a fmvp?

IllegalD

10-11-2015, 11:05 AM

LeBron's defense is mad overrated.

Dude didn't even make an All Defensive Team last year in his prime, even with 2 other All-star scorers on the team to take the load off so he could focus on that side of the ball.

It's a b*llshit myth created by BSPN and parroted by LeBron Stanleys that he can actually guard true centers.

He can guard offensively scrub centers of today's NBA like Noah. Put LeBron in the 90s against the likes of Shaq, Hakeem, David Robinson, Ewing, Mourning and he would get eaten alive.

Also as my friend above pointed out the only PG he's been able to shut down was a gimpy-ass and overrated Derrick Rose (who I've always maintained was nothing more than a rich-man's Marbury. Really good, but not GREAT). And that was with the help of an elite defensive squad he had on the Heatles (Battier, Wade, Bosh, Haslem, etc.). You saw how much his defense has taken a hit playing alongside inferior defensive players in Kyrie and Love.

As far as most versatile defenders ever: Give me Rodman, KG and Pippen over LeBron any day of the week and twice and sunday.

sd3035

10-11-2015, 11:08 AM

hitmanyr2k

10-11-2015, 11:19 AM

[B]
Pippen never guarded Webber, other than ordinary switching on a screen

Stop showing your ignorance so much. Pippen was the primary defender on Webber at the start of Game 3. And the only time Webber even scored was in transition or when Luc guarded him.

https://youtu.be/9Df_BHT0AP8?t=1m16s

Hubie Brown comments on the battle between Webber and Pippen and how Pippen won't allow Webber to catch a pass which is pretty typical as Pippen was great at ball denial in the post when he was locked in.

https://youtu.be/9Df_BHT0AP8?t=2m17s

Pointguard

10-11-2015, 11:40 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAYpxH-YU8M

MJ destroyed Garnett - The above link is a youtube video showing every possession MJ had against Garnett... Each play against Garnett is listed below, with video links to each play and cumulative stats at the bottom:

MJ makes jumpshot on Garnett at 0:28 second mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAYpxH-YU8M&t=0m28s)... 1-1 FG

MJ misses jumpshot on Garnett at 1:05 mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAYpxH-YU8M&t=1m05s)... 1-2

MJ turns it over on Garnett at 2:08 mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAYpxH-YU8M&t=2m08s)

MJ drives by Garnett for assist at 2:29 mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAYpxH-YU8M&t=2m29s)

MJ makes crazy hangtime shot on Garnett at 2:59 mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAYpxH-YU8M&t=2m59s)... 2-3

MJ blows by Garnett but misses layup at 3:08 mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAYpxH-YU8M&t=3m08s)... 2-4

MJ misses pull-up jumper at 3:29 mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAYpxH-YU8M&t=3m29s)... 2-5

MJ makes jumper on Garnett at 3:37 mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAYpxH-YU8M&t=3m37s)... 3-6

MJ blows by Garnett for acrobatic left hand layup at 3:44 mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAYpxH-YU8M&t=3m44s).. 4-7

MJ blows by Garnett for dunk at 4:00 mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAYpxH-YU8M&t=4m00s).... 5-8

MJ makes crazy pull-up fadeaway on Garnett at 4:15 mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAYpxH-YU8M&t=4m15s)... 6-9

MJ draws foul on Garnett at 4:30 mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAYpxH-YU8M&t=4m30s).... 2 made FT's

MJ blows by Garnett but misses easy layup at 5:06 mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAYpxH-YU8M&t=5m06s).... 6-10

MJ blows by Garnett and gets assist at 5:27 mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAYpxH-YU8M&t=5m27s)..

MJ misses layup on Garnett at 5:51 mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAYpxH-YU8M&t=5m51s).. 6-11

MJ's stats on Garnett: 14 points... 6-11 FG... 54.5% FG... 2 assists.. 2 TO's

Isn't the red exactly what Harrison said? 6 for 11 isn't bad at all. What are you thinking? Two of Jordan's basktets that you counted were off picks as well. So its more like 4 for 9. Two air balls and a turnover. KG also picked him up at half court when Jordan had the ball. And this is KG's fourth versatile position, not his third, as Jordan was a SG basically his whole career. Its the equivalent of Jordan guarding Duncan or Malone with them being his age in this clip. Sorry that's not happening.

KG was versatile, but he mainly guarded PF's and occasionally centers.. He struggled a ton guarding MJ..

KG guarded SFs at least a 20% his first five years, and if they were high scorers a bit more than that. At the very least at a higher rate than Jordan guarded either SFs or PGs. And KG did this for the whole game not in spot duty like Jordan would do when he guarded other positions. He also guarded mobile centers the last seven years as well. Only Rodman, of the three position defenders, might have guarded more off of his position from a strong point than KG. KG guarded Tmac and Penny which means he guarded a superstar at every position and did well on them. What superstar is Jordan guarding at the PF and Center position?

SHAQisGOAT

10-11-2015, 12:22 PM

Bobby Jones is always mad overlooked in these types of threads...

He was mostly a PF (at least on offense), guarding players such as Mo Lucas, McHale, Hayes, Buck Williams, McGinnis, Kenon, Truck Robinson, Roundfield, Cummings...

He played that lockdown type of D on dudes like Bird, English, Erving, King, Wilkes, Dantley, Marques Johnson, Wilkins...

At some point or another, he even defended centers like Kareem, Parish, McAdoo (when he was playing the 5), Sikma...

He moved to 6th man for Philly at 31 years old, and you get to see him coming off the bench even to guard some SG's like DJ, Moncrief, Gervin, Theus, Birdsong, Magic (when Nixon was also with the Lakers)...

Even got to do some very good defending on PG's, doing it also on rotations or pick-n-rolls...

Not to mention, dude averaged 1.5 steals per game and 1.4 blocks per game for his CAREER in ONLY 27.3 minutes per game; he was around 2 SPG/2 BPG in his prime, was once top10 in STL% and BLK% in his peak.

Plenty of times, Bobby did a great job defending different positions and types of players, while he was also a great team and off-ball defender (and not just by the numbers).
He has a great case for #1 in this discussion.

No wonder he made 8 NBA all-defensive teams and 1 all-defensive 2nd in 10 NBA seasons :bowdown: And they didn't give those out by name/fame back then.

Plus, he was more than "just" defense... And teams he played for NEVER missed the Playoffs, nor won less than 47 games (only winning less than 50 games 2 times in 10 regular-seasons).

3ball

10-11-2015, 01:00 PM

Stop showing your ignorance so much. Pippen was the primary defender on Webber at the start of Game 3. And the only time Webber even scored was in transition or when Luc guarded him.

https://youtu.be/9Df_BHT0AP8?t=1m16s

Hubie Brown comments on the battle between Webber and Pippen and how Pippen won't allow Webber to catch a pass which is pretty typical as Pippen was great at ball denial in the post when he was locked in.

https://youtu.be/9Df_BHT0AP8?t=2m17s
Again - this was SPOT DUTY... Pippen guarded Webber for half the quarter... He did not start the game from tip-off matched up with Webber..

Pippen was never matched up from tip-off with any PF as the primary defender, all-game defender.... Ever.. He did spot duty on Webber just like MJ did spot duty on Vlade Divac in 1991 Finals.

Again, both MJ and Pippen guarded SG's and SF's equally, but MJ guarded PG's a lot more than Pippen guarded PF's.. And the only PG's Pippen ever guarded in any capacity were Mark Jackson, the slowest PG of all time, and Penny, who he and MJ alternated defending.

dubeta

10-11-2015, 01:03 PM

Jordan could only guard SGs, and even then not very effectively

He didnt have the quickness to guard PGs, or the size to guard SFs

Dont know why he's mentioned in this thread for versatile defenders.

3ball

10-11-2015, 01:13 PM

You guys have lost it.
.

hitmanyr2k

10-11-2015, 02:59 PM

Again - this was SPOT DUTY... Pippen guarded Webber for half the quarter... He did not start the game from tip-off matched up with Webber..

Pippen was never matched up from tip-off with any PF as the primary defender, all-game defender.... Ever.. He did spot duty on Webber just like MJ did spot duty on Vlade Divac in 1991 Finals.

Again, both MJ and Pippen guarded SG's and SF's equally, but MJ guarded PG's a lot more than Pippen guarded PF's.. And the only PG's Pippen ever guarded in any capacity were Mark Jackson, the slowest PG of all time, and Penny, who he and MJ alternated defending.

It was from tip-off dummy. Like I said, stop showing your ignorance. You've proven time and time again that you pull stuff out of your ass and have no knowledge whatsoever besides reading box scores.

sdot_thadon

10-11-2015, 03:11 PM

It was from tip-off dummy. Like I said, stop showing your ignorance. You've proven time and time again that you pull stuff out of your ass and have no knowledge whatsoever besides reading box scores.
Classic 3ball man, he's been shown plenty of proof of pippen guarding bigs and he refuses to acknowledge it. After all the input so fsr in this thread, Mj doesn't really belong in this discussion unless we're talking further down the list.

3ball

10-11-2015, 03:36 PM

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-11-2015/EDUjOB.gif

Isn't the red exactly what Harrison said? 6 for 11 isn't bad at all.

Harrison said MJ shot poorly and KG made him look like a rookie... MJ doesn't look like a rookie above.. He looks like a 38-year old man beating prime Garnett by a full two steps in the halfcourt..

The facts were that MJ scored 35 points on 16-30, including 14 points on Garnett (6-11 fg) - that means MJ did better against Garnett than anyone else.

KG guarded SFs at least a 20% his first five years, and also PF's and Centers throughout his career

MJ guarded the 1-3 as much as Garnett guarded the 3-5.. There's no difference..

People want to give props to Garnett the one time he gets caught on a switch and has to guard a point guard: "Oh wow, look at Garnett defending a PG... Wow."... Otoh, MJ gets caught on switches and has to guard big men too - he busts his ass and defends them well, but you never see dumb fans giving MJ props for it.

3ball

10-11-2015, 03:43 PM

3ball has been shown plenty of proof of pippen guarding bigs and he refuses to acknowledge it.

Plenty??... You've provided 1 example of Pippen guarding a PF from the tip-off as the primary defender... Other than the 1 example you've unearthed, Pippen was never the primary defender on PF's.. Ever.

And again, both MJ and Pippen guarded SG's and SF's equally, but MJ guarded PG's a lot more than Pippen guarded PF's..

Furthermore, it's common knowledge that MJ was the superior man-to-man defender and was the superior defender at the 1-3 spots - this was demonstrated in the "Who defended Grant Hill better" (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=387113) thread.. Even if you think Pippen defended bigs better - he only defended them 3% of the time... So he was only the better defender 3% of the time.
.

Nash

10-11-2015, 03:52 PM

Lebron's versatility on D with Miami was amazing, the way Spo used him to lock up both guards and big men, inside and out was impressive.
Battier also did some great things.

3ball

10-11-2015, 04:03 PM

Lebron's versatility on D with Miami was amazing, the way Spo used him to lock up both guards and big men, inside and out was impressive.
Battier also did some great things.
Lebron had a brief stretch where he was a good defender, but that's only because he teamed up with a stacked squad, so his offensive burden was drastically reduced (allowing more energy for defense).

When Lebron locked up Derrick Rose in 2011, Chris Bosh averaged 24 ppg on 60% in that series, while Wade averaged 27 ppg in the Finals (to Lebron's 17 ppg).

The significantly smaller offensive load Lebron carried while on his stacked super-team helped Lebron be better on defense than he was the rest of his career, where he's been pedestrian to bad.

Now compare to MJ - he carried a 50% to 300% larger offensive load than his 2ns option, yet he was still known at the time (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s) as the best defender on his team - this is before new fans started revising history and marginalizing his goat perimeter defense.
.

97 bulls

10-11-2015, 04:07 PM

Plenty??... You've provided 1 example of Pippen guarding a PF from the tip-off as the primary defender... Other than the 1 example you've unearthed, Pippen was never the primary defender on PF's.. Ever.

He only did spot duty on PF's, and very rarely, just like MJ did spot duty on Vlade Divac in 1991 Finals.

Again, both MJ and Pippen guarded SG's and SF's equally, but MJ guarded PG's a lot more than Pippen guarded PF's.. And the only PG's Pippen ever guarded in any capacity were Mark Jackson, the slowest PG of all time, and Penny, where he and MJ alternated defending.

Furthermore, it's common knowledge that MJ was the superior man-to-man defender and was the superior defender at the 1-3 spots - this was demonstrated in the "Who defended Grant Hill better" (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=387113) thread.. Even if you think Pippen defended bigs better - he only defended them 3% of the time... So he was only the better defender 3% of the time.
.
Theres vid proof of Pippen guarding Webber, Barkley, Magic, Penny, and "slow ass Mark Jackson" and Greg Ostertag. For essentially the whole game or series. What more do you want? Its seems as if the only satisfactory answer for you is Pippen guarding all 5 positions at the same time.

Rocketswin2013

10-11-2015, 04:08 PM

Lebron had a 2-year stretch where he was a good defender, but that's only because he teamed up with a stacked squad, so his offensive burden was drastically reduced (allowing more energy for defense).

When Lebron locked up Derrick Rose in 2011, Chris Bosh averaged 24 ppg on 60% in that series, while Wade averaged 27 ppg in the Finals (to Lebron's 17 ppg).

The significantly smaller offensive load Lebron carried while on his stacked super-team helped Lebron be better on defense than he was the rest of his career, where he's been pedestrian to bad.

Now compare to MJ - he carried a 50% to 300% larger offensive load than his 2ns option, yet he was still known at the time (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s) as the best defender on his team - this is before new fans started revising history and marginalizing his goat perimeter defense.
You don't have any clue what you are talking about, 3ball.

3ball

10-11-2015, 04:15 PM

Lebron had a brief stretch where he was a good defender, but that's only because he teamed up with a stacked squad, so his offensive burden was drastically reduced (allowing more energy for defense).

When Lebron locked up Derrick Rose in 2011, Chris Bosh averaged 24 ppg on 60% in that series, while Wade averaged 27 ppg in the Finals (to Lebron's 17 ppg).

The significantly smaller offensive load Lebron carried while on his stacked super-team helped Lebron be better on defense than he was the rest of his career, where he's been pedestrian to bad.

Now compare to MJ - he carried a 50% to 300% larger offensive load than his 2ns option, yet he was still known at the time (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s) as the best defender on his team - this is before new fans started revising history and marginalizing his goat perimeter defense.

You don't have any clue what you are talking about, 3ball.

I gotta tell ya, I'm quite happy with my post - it's factually accurate - Lebron's good defensive years coincided with him having the most offensive help he's ever had, which allowed him more energy for defense.

Also, are you saying MJ didn't carry a 50% to 300% larger offensive load than Pippen?... This is a statistical fact.

And are you saying MJ wasn't recognized as the best defender on the Bulls?... Even the mainstream media knew it at the time (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s), before new fans started revising history and marginalizing his goat perimeter defense.

97 bulls

10-11-2015, 04:23 PM

I gotta tell ya, I'm quite happy with my post - it's factually accurate - Lebron's good defensive years coincided with him having the most offensive help he's ever had, which allowed him more energy for defense.

Also, are you saying MJ didn't carry a 50% to 300% larger offensive load than Pippen?... This is a statistical fact.

And are you saying MJ wasn't recognized as the best defender on the Bulls?... Even the mainstream media knew it at the time (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s), before new fans started revising history and marginalizing his goat perimeter defense.
But once again your being intellectually dishonest. Jordan WANTED to be a scoring leader while winning a championship. He didn't have to. He and Phil Jackson said this. I even showed you a video as well as quotes saying this.

The 94 season more than shows that the Bulls didnt need Jordan scoring 30 ppg to be succesful and win championships.

Rocketswin2013

10-11-2015, 04:27 PM

I gotta tell ya, I'm quite happy with my post - it's factually accurate - Lebron's good defensive years coincided with him having the most offensive help he's ever had, which allowed him more energy for defense.

Also, are you saying MJ didn't carry a 50% to 300% larger offensive load than Pippen?... This is a statistical fact.

And are you saying MJ wasn't recognized as the best defender on the Bulls?... Even the mainstream media knew it at the time (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s), before new fans started revising history and marginalizing his goat perimeter defense.
How good was defensively in 2009, and 2010, 3ball? And how much heavy lifting did he have to do?

Those Cavs ranked very high defensively, who would you say led those teams on that end?

3ball

10-11-2015, 04:32 PM

But once again your being intellectually dishonest. Jordan WANTED to be a scoring leader while winning a championship. He didn't have to. He and Phil Jackson said this. I even showed you a video as well as quotes saying this.

The 94 season more than shows that the Bulls didnt need Jordan scoring 30 ppg to be succesful and win championships.

:wtf:

The 1994 season showed that even with a 3-peat supporting cast - basically the best teamwork any team could ever have - the Bulls were only an average, 2nd round exit team without MJ.

Those are the facts... Remember - in 1994 and 1995, the Bulls ORtg was 106.1 and 109.5 - this was good for 14th and 10th in the league.. But when MJ came back for a full season, it shot up to #1 all-time, 115.2.. This is despite playing 4 on 5 offensively (rodman)... That's the goat impact - 14th in league, to #1 all-time.
.

3ball

10-11-2015, 04:40 PM

:wtf:

The 1994 season showed that even with a 3-peat supporting cast - basically the best teamwork any team could ever have - the Bulls were only an average, 2nd round exit team without MJ.

Those are the facts... Remember - in 1994 and 1995, the Bulls ORtg was 106.1 and 109.5 - this was good for 14th and 10th in the league.. But when MJ came back for a full season, it shot up to #1 all-time, 115.2.. This is despite playing 4 on 5 offensively (rodman)... That's the goat impact - 14th in league, to #1 all-time.

In 1996, MJ's off-ball game allowed him to add his league-leading scoring right on top of what was already there, without diminishing teammate stats - this allowed the team to play to full capacity and reach their ceiling.. MJ's ability to lead the league in scoring on high efficiency within an equal opportunity offense was the goat boost for any offense ever, especially an equal-opportunity offense.

And since the offense still allowed other players to get touches and opportunities to playmake, opposing defenses gave up the worst of both worlds - one player dominating and everyone else also creating for each other as well.. That's a defense's nightmare because there's no right choice of who to defend and the offense is adjustable so it's harder to exploit.
.

97 bulls

10-11-2015, 04:43 PM

:wtf:

The 1994 season showed that even with a 3-peat supporting cast - basically the best teamwork any team could ever have - the Bulls were only an average, 2nd round exit team without MJ.

Those are the facts... Keep in mind that the Bulls ORtg was 106.1 in 1994 and 109.5 in 1995, good for 14th and 10th in the league.. But when MJ came back for a full season, it shot up to #1 all-time, 115.2.. This is despite playing 4 on 5 offensively (rodman)... That's the goat impact - 14th in league, to #1 all-time.
Dude. You cant take away a teams best player and think that it not going to effect them. The FACT the 94 Bulls won 55 games were a bad call away from making back to the ecf finals without Jordan. No other team has been remotely close to being as successful as they were.

I mean think about what your insinuating.....Michael Jordan carried this huge load, taught players how to play basketball. Won games by himself. Carried a bunch of scrubs etc. If hes that important, they should've fell off the face of the earth when he left. **** the stats. The game is played to win.

97 bulls

10-11-2015, 04:48 PM

In 1996, MJ's off-ball game allowed him to add his league-leading scoring right on top of what was already there, without diminishing anything.. MJ's ability to lead the league in scoring on high efficiency within an equal opportunity offense was the goat boost for any offense ever.

And since the offense still allowed other players to get touches and opportunities to playmake, opposing defenses gave up the worst of both worlds - one player dominating and everyone else also creating for each other as well.. That's a defense's nightmare because there's no right choice and the offense is adjustable so it's harder to exploit.
.
That's not the argument. I said Jordan scored so much because by his own admonition, he wanted to. Not because he had to.

3ball

10-11-2015, 05:06 PM

If hes that important, they should've fell off the face of the earth when he left.

You're confusing the 1993 Bulls with the 2014 Heat.

The 2014 Heat would've BARELY made the playoffs in the West, and accordingly, were beat worse than any team ever in the Finals.. The 2014 Heat were a 1st or 2nd Round team out West (and I'm being generous), that fell to a lottery team in 2015.

Don't confuse the 2014 Heat with the 1993 Bulls, who 3-peated and would've beaten the 2014 Spurs - the Bulls going from 3-peat champs to 2nd Round is a further drop-off than the 2014 Heat going from 1st round-caliber team to lottery.

The FACT the 94 Bulls won 55 games were a bad call away from making back to the ecf finals without Jordan.

FACT: they fell from 3-peat dynasty to ordinary 2nd Round team.

FACT: they were literally 0.7 seconds away from being down 3-0, but Toni Kukoc hit a walk-off game winner to save Pippen's ass, who refused to enter the game in an epic choke.

I mean think about what your insinuating.....

OK.. I will..

Michael Jordan carried this huge load,

He did - the largest load of all time - no player has averaged 35/7/7 on 51% in the playoffs or 36/7/8 on 53% in the Finals like MJ did for his first 3-peat..

That's the most anyone's ever needed to produce to win rings.... The GOAT load.

taught players how to play basketball.

JERRY KRAUSE, Bulls GM:

“Would Pippen have been great someplace else?

Michael absolutely killed Scottie in practice every day for his first two years. Mike just tore Pip up. He made Pip learn how to compete and forced him into playing hard. Had there not been someone to challenge Scottie like that, I’m not sure what would’ve happened to him... No, Michael made him a man.

Michael made him a man and Doug [Collins] did a great job with him in his first year. And he - Collins - had Michael to beat on him for a year every day in practice and Michael beat him to death."

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=5453558

Won games by himself. Carried a bunch of scrubs etc.

In the 1989 playoffs, MJ won Game 3 all by himself - 47 points, while Pippen had 7 points on 1-10 shooting.

(wow, that's Pippen's exact same shooting in 1990 ECF Game 7, when he choked super-bad.. apparently, it wasn't his first time)
.

3ball

10-11-2015, 05:23 PM

I feel edited the most important response in my previous post, so I'm going to repost it and bold that part.

97 bulls

10-11-2015, 05:23 PM

[QUOTE=3ball]You're confusing the 1993 Bulls with the 2014 Heat.

The 2014 Heat would've BARELY made the playoffs in the West, and accordingly, were beat worse than any team ever in the Finals.. The Heat were a 1st or 2nd Round team out West (and I'm being generous), that fell to a lottery team.

Don't confuse that with the 1993 Bulls, who 3-peated and would've beaten the 2014 Spurs, but fell all the way to the 2nd Round in 1994.

FACT: they fell from 3-peat dynasty to ordinary 2nd Round team.

FACT: they were literally 0.7 seconds away from being down 3-0, but Toni Kukoc hit a walk-off game winner to save Pippen's ass, who refused to enter the game in an eplooic choke.

OK.. I will..

He did - the largest load of all time - no player has averaged 35/7/7 on 51% in the playoffs or 36/7/8 on 53% in the Finals like MJ did for his first 3-peat..

That's the most anyone's ever needed to produce to win rings.... The GOAT load.

JERRY KRAUSE, Bulls GM:

[indent][I]

3ball

10-11-2015, 05:24 PM

If hes that important, they should've fell off the face of the earth when he left.

Re-edited:

You're confusing the 1993 Bulls with the 2014 Heat.

The 2014 Heat would've BARELY made the playoffs in the West, and accordingly, were beat worse than any team ever in the Finals.. The 2014 Heat were a 1st or 2nd Round team out West (and I'm being generous), that fell to a lottery team in 2015.

Don't confuse the 2014 Heat with the 1993 Bulls, who 3-peated and would've beaten the 2014 Spurs - the Bulls going from 3-peat champs to 2nd Round is a further drop-off than the 2014 Heat going from 1st round-caliber team to lottery.

97 bulls

10-11-2015, 05:34 PM

Re-edited:

You're confusing the 1993 Bulls with the 2014 Heat.

The 2014 Heat would've BARELY made the playoffs in the West, and accordingly, were beat worse than any team ever in the Finals.. The 2014 Heat were a 1st or 2nd Round team out West (and I'm being generous), that fell to a lottery team in 2015.

Don't confuse the 2014 Heat with the 1993 Bulls, who 3-peated and would've beaten the 2014 Spurs - the Bulls going from 3-peat champs to 2nd Round is a further drop-off than the 2014 Heat going from 1st round-caliber team to lottery.
Whats ths point????? They're not in the West. They came out of the East. They sucked in the East last year.

3ball

10-11-2015, 05:47 PM

Whats ths point????? They're not in the West. They came out of the East.

Here's my point: going from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round is a far bigger decline than 1st or 2nd Round Western Conference team to lottery..

97 bulls

10-11-2015, 05:53 PM

Here's my point: going from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round is a far bigger decline than 1st or 2nd Round Western Conference team to lottery..
But they weren't in the Western Conference so what does it matter????? They appeared in four straight Championships by way of the East. They sucked last year. In the East.

Pointguard

10-11-2015, 11:44 PM

Harrison said MJ shot poorly and KG made him look like a rookie... MJ doesn't look like a rookie above.. He looks like a 38-year old man beating prime Garnett by a full two steps in the halfcourt..

The facts were that MJ scored 35 points on 16-30, including 14 points on Garnett (6-11 fg) - that means MJ did better against Garnett than anyone else.
It doesn't mean that at all. They could have been break away dunks and picks sets that left Jordan open. The fact that 7'0 foot KG is guarding him that much is evidence enough that he's doing the best job.

MJ guarded the 1-3 as much as Garnett guarded the 3-5.. There's no difference..
KG played SF almost exclusively his first two years. A few years later they acquire Scerbiack and he has to guard the high scoring SFs again. He was guarding TMac for the whole game, at least two years into his (Tracy's) prime - around '04. That's KG's 4th position he's guarded full time. TMac in his prime was one of the greatest scorers at his position. The equivalent would be Jordan guarding Karl Malone for a whole game.

People want to give props to Garnett the one time he gets caught on a switch and has to guard a point guard: "Oh wow, look at Garnett defending a PG... Wow."... Otoh, MJ gets caught on switches and has to guard big men too - he busts his ass and defends them well, but you never see dumb fans giving MJ props for it.
Sorry he's never guarded a PF for a whole game, much less an all time great scorer at the four. Plus Jordan doesn't anchor the defense nor was he the communicator/coordinator KG was. You have no argument here. Rodman also is ahead of Jordan as far as versatility on defense. This Jordan is the best at everything, really needs to stop. He's not definitively the most versatile on his own team.

Harison

10-12-2015, 01:51 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAYpxH-YU8M

MJ destroyed Garnett -
14 points... 6-11 FG... 54.5% FG... 2 assists.. 2 TO's

You are strange man. I know you are MJ homer, but come on now, come back to Earth, it must be chilly and no oxygen up there :lol I'm also MJ fan, but blind fanaticism looks pretty bad, I hope you'll understand it one day.

1. You said "MJ scored 35 on Garnett", which is obviously wrong, as I pointed out.

2. Now you say it was 14 pts. Fine, but in what Universe it means MJ destroyed Garnett ? In your head 14 pts means that? :lol

3. Then you say "Harrison said MJ shot poorly and KG made him look like a rookie... MJ doesn't look like a rookie above", do you even understand English? I said Jordan lost a ball like a rookie due to Garnett's intimidation. Like here: https://goo.gl/lg4xjD

Garnett had a better game than MJ, and its undeniable fact. http://goo.gl/ZBxJnS

Do I say then Garnett destroyed MJ? No I dont, that would pretty dumb, so I hope you'll learn from this example. That said, I gave full props to MJ for a great game as a 38 yrs old. Jordan is my favorite player of All-time, but your homerism is really off putting.

bizil

10-12-2015, 02:32 AM

It doesn't mean that at all. They could have been break away dunks and picks sets that left Jordan open. The fact that 7'0 foot KG is guarding him that much is evidence enough that he's doing the best job.

KG played SF almost exclusively his first two years. A few years later they acquire Scerbiack and he has to guard the high scoring SFs again. He was guarding TMac for the whole game, at least two years into his (Tracy's) prime - around '04. That's KG's 4th position he's guarded full time. TMac in his prime was one of the greatest scorers at his position. The equivalent would be Jordan guarding Karl Malone for a whole game.

Sorry he's never guarded a PF for a whole game, much less an all time great scorer at the four. Plus Jordan doesn't anchor the defense nor was he the communicator/coordinator KG was. You have no argument here. Rodman also is ahead of Jordan as far as versatility on defense. This Jordan is the best at everything, really needs to stop. He's not definitively the most versatile on his own team.

I agree on all counts! People tend to forget that KG played A TON of SF in his early days. He was in lineups with PF's like Googs or a Joe Smith. Plus in the late 90's to mid 2000's, there was a big SF craze going on. U saw guys like KG, Dirk,and Sheed all playing minutes at the SF. But DEFENSIVELY, KG was the one who could ALSO defend perimeter players well. If people TRULY were students of the game, it was no secret that KG defended swingmen to centers during his career.

MJ was a very versatile defender. The ability to defend PG, SG, and SF is awesome. But KG's defensive versatility is damn near unmatched in the annuals of NBA history. It would take guys like a Rodman or Pippen to match or exceed. But the fact that KG could defend perimeter players so well at 7'0 is MUCH MORE UNIQUE than MJ's defensive capabilities.

3ball

10-12-2015, 03:59 AM

2. Now you say it was 14 pts. Fine, but in what Universe it means MJ destroyed Garnett ? In your head 14 pts means that? :lol

Ok bud.. You don't realize that players who get 30 points don't score all 30 on the defender - normally, it's around 10 points or so.

Let's compare the 14 points MJ scored on KG on 55% FG (6-11), to what Lebron did to Iggy in the 2015 Finals... Gimme a sec... compiling data now..
.

3ball

10-12-2015, 04:21 AM

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106718/iguodala-heads-all-playoff-defensive-team

Andre Iguodala made his biggest impact in the NBA Finals serving as LeBron James’ primary defender. Of James’ primary defenders in the playoffs, Iguodala was the best at limiting his efficiency. James' shooting got worse as the playoffs went along. He shot 42 percent with Jae Crowder as his primary defender, 39 percent against Jimmy Butler, 37 percent against DeMarre Carroll and 35 percent against Iguodala.

When guarded by Iguodala in the NBA Finals, 66 of James’ 77 field goal attempts were contested (87 percent), with James shooting 30 percent on those attempts. James shot 41 percent when his shot was contested when guarded by anyone else.

Based on the above info from ESPN, Lebron attempted 77 shots against Iggy in the 2015 Finals, or 12.4 shot attempts per game.. He shot 35% on these 12.4 attempts, thus making 4.2 of them.. Less than 1 of those makes is a 3-pointer, so Lebron's and Jordan's stats were:

Lebron vs. Iguodala: 9 pts on 4-12 (~35%)
Jordan vs. Garnett:. 14 pts on 6-11 (55%)

Btw, notice how even at 38 years old, MJ shot well at high volume (14-30).. Unlike Lebron, MJ was great at the additional midrange and 1-on-1 required of high volume shooting, as he showed against Garnett.. Otoh, Lebron is a bad midrange shooter and 1-on-1 player, so he isn't capable of good efficiency at high volume, as we saw throughout the playoffs against virtually every defender.. Consequently, it behooved the Warriors to induce Lebron's poor efficiency at high-volume by not double-teaming him, thus exploiting the hell out of him.
.

3ball

10-12-2015, 04:49 AM

Whats ths point????? They're not in the West. They came out of the East. They sucked in the East last year.

The point is that the 2014 Heat were the easily the worst opponent the Spurs faced and would've barely even made the playoffs if they were in the west.. They were 1st or 2nd Round team at best in the west.

As a 1st Round caliber team, the Heat's fall from 1st Round in 2014, to lottery in 2015 is nowhere near the fall from 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round of the 94' Bulls.. 1st Round to lottery is a much smaller decline than 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round.
.

Harison

10-12-2015, 04:52 AM

Based on the above info from ESPN, Lebron attempted 77 shots against Iggy in the 2015 Finals, or 12.4 shot attempts per game.. He shot 35% on these 12.4 attempts, thus making 4.2 of them.. Less than 1 of those makes is a 3-pointer, so Lebron's and Jordan's stats were:

Lebron vs. Iguodala: 9 pts on 4-12 (~35%)
Jordan vs. Garnett:. 14 pts on 6-11 (55%)
Again you comparing apples to tomatoes, too many wrong things here.

* One game vs series, not the same thing. There is nothing astounding if GOAT got hot sometimes in his Wizard days.

* MJ was a much better scorer than Lebron will ever be.

* I also dont take 54% at a face value either, just because you say it is based on highlights. Get full non-edited game, then we can talk. Maybe my memory serves wrong since I've seen this game many years ago, but as I remember MJ shot worse than you imply, many misses were edited out.

* Garnett was an entire defense for Wolves, Iggy was just a one line of defense. Warriors had Top1 defense in NBA while Iggy wasnt even a starter (except 2nd half of Finals series). If Lebron blows by Iggy, he faces great post defenders, if MJ blows by KG, he gets red carpet to the basket since no one is there to help.

More extensive data about how Garnett is doing as a defender.

KG, GOAT Defender of the Modern Era:

"So, I went on over to basketballvalue.com and checked out the results through 17 playoffs games...

The Celtics' defense is allowing 89.72 points/100 possessions when Garnett is on the court (the #1 mark in the NBA)
The Celtics' defense is allowing 122.44 points/100 possessions when Garnett is off the court (the absolute worst mark in the NBA)"

"The Heat shot 38% with KG on the floor, 85% with KG on the bench....yes you read that right, 85%."

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=308314

Looking analyzing these metric, the first thing you

R.I.P.

10-12-2015, 05:28 AM

i bet current KG, the one who rocks a life alert necklace in practice, could have guarded Iggy better in the finals.

Or JJB or Jason Terry or Dirk Nowitzki. Bron cannot defend PGs, PFs or Cs, unless you count complete scrubs, which is pretty much most of the Eastern Conference.

3ball

10-12-2015, 05:42 AM

Or JJB or Jason Terry or Dirk Nowitzki. Bron cannot defend PGs, PFs or Cs, unless you count complete scrubs, which is pretty much most of the Eastern Conference.
Agreed.. Let me know when he guards duncan or nowitski for once

3ball

10-12-2015, 05:43 AM

MJ was a very versatile defender. The ability to defend PG, SG, and SF is awesome. But KG's defensive versatility is damn near unmatched in the annuals of NBA history. It would take guys like a Rodman or Pippen to match or exceed. But the fact that KG could defend perimeter players so well at 7'0 is MUCH MORE UNIQUE than MJ's defensive capabilities.

MJ guarded 1-3 extensively, while KG guarded the 3-5, and the 3 not extensively

3ball

10-12-2015, 05:44 AM

* One game vs series, not the same thing.

Take any 1 game from the 2015 Finals, and MJ's 14 points on 6-11 vs. KG destroys what Lebron did to Iggy.. Try again.

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-12-2015/Obm8mM.gif

There is nothing astounding if GOAT got hot sometimes in his Wizard days.

^^^^That gif was from 2002 season - game #40, when he dropped 41 on Shawn Marion.. Also, MJ got hot more than sometimes - this is all from the 60 games he played in 2002 season:

35 on Minnesota with Garnett defending
51 on Baron's Hornets (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWjXJ_kaf-M)
45 the next night on #1 defense Nets (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FERPEtMYpes), destroying Kenyon Martin in 2nd half
44 on Utah (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0UTltX1oq4)
40 on Cleveland (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esljj9qzrDE)
41 on Shawn Marion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pd9ayPlqCMg)
Game-winner in Cleveland (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwW9XbwlV1o)
Game-winner in New York over Sprewell (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgG9X0aZb_Q)
Game-winner in Marion's face (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjo06p5zchg)

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2015/uAh_p8.gif

If Lebron blows by Iggy he faces post defenders

Lebron can't blow by Iggy in halfcourt 99% of time.. And don't even bring up defense - we all saw the games - Lebron enjoyed the most secluded clearouts in the history of the game - all 4 help defenders were on the far weakside and therefore FURTHEST from helping on strongside action, as seen in the gif above, and more here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=378398).

Also, the late 90's/early 2000's had the lowest DRtg's and far tougher defense than today's game.. Today's 3-point shooting and defensive 3 seconds takes defenders out of the paint to the perimeter.. The resulting spacing forces defenders to help from further away - that's the definition of spacing - it affords today's players more time and room to operate then ever before.

More information about KG as a defender

MJ killed KG that badly, so now you feel the need to list KG resume... sad
.

sdot_thadon

10-12-2015, 10:37 AM

Take any 1 game from the 2015 Finals, and MJ's 14 points on 6-11 vs. KG destroys what Lebron did to Iggy.. Try again..

Oh you mean compare that one guys FINALS to a another guys reg season game, because he couldn't even make the playoffs in one of the weakest eastern conferences ever? Hell yeah, sounds legit....:oldlol:

Ray22

10-12-2015, 11:20 AM

1) Rodman
2) Pippen
3) Garnett

3ball

10-12-2015, 11:25 AM

Oh you mean compare that one guys FINALS to a another guys reg season game

You don't know what the conversation between me and Harison was about - Harison thought that when a player gets 30 points, ALL 30 of those are scored on the primary defender guarding him...

So I informed him that when a player scores 30 points, they only get about 10 of those points on their primary defender, normally.. The Lebron/Iggy Finals example was used to demonstrate this.. Lebron averaged 9 ppg on 4-12 shooting against Iggy in the 2015 Finals.

In MJ's case, he scored 14 points on Garnett, on 6-11 shooting.. Originally, Harison thought this was a low number for anyone to score on their primary defender during a 35 point performance... Btw, regarding MJ not making playoffs as a Wizard - MJ led the Wizards to 17 more wins in 2002, with the exact same roster... Compare that to Lebron and Bosh leading 2011 Miami to only 11 more wins.

Reggie43

10-12-2015, 11:36 AM

Derrick Mckey could defend most positions in his prime and would probably be much more suited in todays league with the rules and style of play as it is..

sdot_thadon

10-12-2015, 12:11 PM

Derrick Mckey could defend most positions in his prime and would probably be much more suited in todays league with the rules and style of play as it is..
Good post, forgot about him too.

bizil

10-12-2015, 05:14 PM

MJ guarded 1-3 extensively, while KG guarded the 3-5, and the 3 not extensively

You're missing the WHOLE ENTIRE POINT!! KG's primary position was SF early in his career! And even when he moved to PF, he was known to defend swingmen. Peak KG was a PF whose SECONDARY POSITION was SF. His secondary position wasn't center UNTIL LATE in his career!

So just off that alone, he's MORE VERSATILE than MJ defensively. U would NEVER see MJ defend true PF's or centers. At MJ's size, it doesnt make sense. BUT KG DIDN'T look out of place defending big SG's, SF's, PF's or centers.

As a matter of fact, he defended ALL OF THOSE positions very good to great! And even when it comes to perimeter defenders, guys like Pippen, Bron, Artest, Kirilenko, McKey, and Anthony Mason are more versatile than MJ.

bizil

10-12-2015, 05:21 PM

When it comes to this question, its about the guys who have SHOWN the ability to defend perimeter players AND the big man positions well. The guys like MJ, Kobe, Payton, Frazier, Dennis Johnson, etc. don't qualify in my opinion. It's about the guys who COME THE CLOSEST to being able to defend four to five positions very good to great.

sdot_thadon

10-12-2015, 05:28 PM

3ball

10-12-2015, 08:47 PM

its about the guys who have SHOWN the ability to defend perimeter players AND the big man positions well.

Defenders that do spot duty on both perimeter and interior players, such as Rodman, Pippen, Lebron, Mason, McKey, Cliff Robinson - that's just one way to be versatile.. Other than the rare occurrence, these guys were never the primary, all-game defender on positions besides their own, and they could never defend the other positions very well, certainly not at an All-NBA level.

Otoh, MJ served as the primary defender many times the 1, 2 and 3 spots, and guarded them all at All-NBA level for his entire Bulls career.. Since MJ had elite defensive ability at more positions, and more experience as primary defender on more positions, he's the more versatile defender..

Again, being able to play spot duty on both perimeter and interior players is just one way to be considered versatile.. Another way is to be elite at more positions and serve as primary defender on more positions - that's how MJ is more versatile.

97 bulls

10-12-2015, 09:01 PM

Defenders that do spot duty on both perimeter and interior players, such as Rodman, Pippen, Lebron, Mason, McKey, Cliff Robinson - that's just one way to be versatile.. Other than the rare occurrence, these guys were never the primary, all-game defender on positions besides their own, and they could never defend the other positions very well, certainly not at an All-NBA level.

Otoh, MJ served as the primary defender many times the 1, 2 and 3 spots, and guarded them all at All-NBA level for his entire Bulls career.. Since MJ had elite defensive ability at more positions, and more experience as primary defender on more positions, he's the more versatile defender..

Again, being able to play spot duty on both perimeter and interior players is just one way to be considered versatile.. Another way is to be elite at more positions and serve as primary defender on more positions - that's how MJ is more versatile.
What is your definition of "spot duty"?????

Pointguard

10-12-2015, 09:12 PM

You're missing the WHOLE ENTIRE POINT!! KG's primary position was SF early in his career! And even when he moved to PF, he was known to defend swingmen. Peak KG was a PF whose SECONDARY POSITION was SF. His secondary position wasn't center UNTIL LATE in his career!

So just off that alone, he's MORE VERSATILE than MJ defensively. U would NEVER see MJ defend true PF's or centers. At MJ's size, it doesnt make sense. BUT KG DIDN'T look out of place defending big SG's, SF's, PF's or centers.

As a matter of fact, he defended ALL OF THOSE positions very good to great! And even when it comes to perimeter defenders, guys like Pippen, Bron, Artest, Kirilenko, McKey, and Anthony Mason are more versatile than MJ.
Excellent as always. Forgot about Anthony Mason. He guarded 2 to 5 superstars on the regular. And when you saw him live he looked noticeably bigger than Barkley, sobeit, his legs were average size. He rarely guarded his natural position PF because their wasn't that many scorers there. But he guarded Dominique, Jordan, Hakeem and K. Malone effectively.

3ball

10-13-2015, 02:19 PM

.
KG isn't capable of being an elite, all-game defender of SF - he's not quick enough...

When KG had to guard a quick SF for an entire game (38 year old Jordan), Jordan destroyed him - he had 35 points, including 6-11 for 14 points on KG - compare that to Lebron's 9 ppg average vs. Iggy in the Finals, on 35% shooting.. At times it got embarrassing for KG, as MJ would score on him literally 5 possessions in a row (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=embqhggoep4&t=4m00s) - even the hometown announcers had to capitulate.
.

West-Side

10-13-2015, 02:23 PM

3ball

10-13-2015, 02:25 PM

Detroit Pistons - Dennis Rodman.
I really am having a hard time understanding why this is a topic??

In the 90's Rodman guarded Payton, Jordan, Shaq, Malone & Pippen and has had a lot of success. Who the **** can do that???

Pippen?
Bobby Jones?
LeBron?

:oldlol:

Perhaps the easiest question ever asked on ISH.
guys like KG and Pippen who do spot duty on both perimeter and interior players are only doing SPOT DUTY... They can't defend these other positions at an elite level as the primary, all-game defender.. Pippen isn't an elite, primary defender on PF's or PG's and neither is KG on SF's or Centers.

Otoh, MJ served as the primary defender many times the 1, 2 and 3 spots, and guarded them all at All-NBA level for his entire Bulls career.. Since MJ was could be an elite, PRIMARY defender on more positions, he's the more versatile defender.

3ball

10-13-2015, 02:28 PM

.
KG looks like Matt Bonner here - that's how badly MJ blows by him off-the-dribble:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-13-2015/Gqj_R5.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-13-2015/JbjSUP.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-13-2015/YUoumL.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-13-2015/7Erpnn.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-13-2015/gouE2P.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-13-2015/NgIe3U.gif

^^^ This makes my point - guys like KG and Pippen who do spot duty on both perimeter and interior players are only doing SPOT DUTY... They can't defend these other positions at an elite level as the primary, all-game defender.. Pippen isn't an elite, primary defender on PF's or PG's and neither is Garnett on SF's or Centers.

When KG had to guard a quick SF for an entire game (38 year old Jordan), Jordan destroyed him - he had 35 points, including 6-11 for 14 points on KG - compare that to Lebron's 9 ppg average vs. Iggy in the Finals, on 35% shooting.. At times it got embarrassing for KG, as MJ would score on him literally 5 possessions in a row (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=embqhggoep4&t=4m00s) - even the hometown announcers had to capitulate.

Otoh, MJ served as the primary defender many times the 1, 2 and 3 spots, and guarded them all at All-NBA level for his entire Bulls career.. Since MJ was could be an elite, PRIMARY defender on more positions, he's the more versatile defender.

pauk

10-13-2015, 02:41 PM

Lebron, Pippen & Pistons Rodman only comes to mind, notice the "Pistons" there is a difference between that one and the Bulls one when talking about versatility, Rodman back then was an SF & at his athletic prime guarding anybody from Stockton to Patrick Ewing, dude was nuts.... obviously many more players "could" defend up to all positions, hell you can place even me trying to defend Shaq... but its about doing it WELL (or well enough) & actually having that role of guarding just anybody imaginable every game (or often) / better than anybody can, which is where Pippen, Lebron & Pistons Rodman come in.

Those 3 at their best with full urgency/effort/focus on defense would hold their own against any player/position, strong/big enough to hold their own against big guys and fast/athletic enough to hold their own against the fastest perimeter players.

PS: Dont know why people mention Garnett, he couldnt defend SG as well (especially not PG) & didnt do that so much anyways, i dont even remember him doing it unless it was by mistake/by screen/switch... maybe SFs... he was versatile but nowhere as versatile as Pippen/Lebron/Pistons Rodman... when talking about versatility i think there is a big gap between those 3 and whoever else the next guy is.

Kblaze8855

10-13-2015, 02:43 PM

Kevin Garnett cant guard small forwards?

<H1 class=multi-line-title-1>Garnett Stops McGrady in Timberwolves' Win

November 02, 2002 (http://articles.latimes.com/2002/nov/02)|From Associated Press

[/URL]

[URL="http://twitter.com/share"] (http://articles.latimes.com/print/2002/nov/02/sports/sp-nba2)

</DIV>Kevin Garnett recorded his seventh career triple-double and shut down Tracy McGrady.
Garnett had 23 points, 14 rebounds and 10 assists as the Minnesota Timberwolves handed the Orlando Magic its first loss of the season, 111-105, Friday night at Minneapolis.

Guarded mostly by Garnett, McGrady struggled with his shooting touch all night. McGrady, who scored 31 and 24 points in Orlando's first two games -- victories over Philadelphia and Miami -- went six for 15 for 18 points, 14 in the second half.

"That's the best I've ever been defended," McGrady said. "Ever."
Garnett's long 7-foot frame forced Orlando's leading scorer to alter his shots several times.
"It was great team defense," Garnett said. "I just tried to keep a hand in his face."

</H1>
Besides KG defended swingmen for years early in his career when Googs guarded 4s a lot of the time. KG would defend pretty much...whoever.

Jailblazers7

10-13-2015, 02:46 PM

So should I post a gif of AI crossing Jordan and use it as evidence that he can't guard small/quick guards?

pauk

10-13-2015, 02:57 PM

bizil

10-13-2015, 03:04 PM

Kevin Garnett cant guard small forwards?

[B]</H1>
Besides KG defended swingmen for years early in his career when Googs guarded 4s a lot of the time. KG would defend pretty much...whoever.

I agree! In the early 2000s, guys like T Mac, Wizards MJ, and Pierce were swingmen kind of players. They would play BOTH SG and SF often. So when people say KG coudln't defend SG's, I LMAO!! The reason why IS BECAUSE many of the SF's he guarded played as SG's too. The terms swingman ENTAILS playing SG and SF.

Kblaze8855

10-13-2015, 03:05 PM

I don't see any reason to put Lebron over Bobby Jones, Rodney Mccray, Satch Sanders(from all reports), or maybe even Shawn Marion who ive seen guard Tony Parker, Tmac, and Yao Ming.

Maybe give him the edge on Marion since Marion didn't step out on the guards as often....

But ive seen Mccray guard pretty much the entire other team and Sanders guarded Wilt, Baylor, West, and Oscar.

Lebron is one of those guys who for fame and being more recent overshadows a lot of guys who did similar things.

He was impressive to great on Rose and Parker...and he CAN guard bigmen...but he has no performances on them id call noteworthy. He can just do it without being a liability...which itself is impressive....

But the idea that hes capable of shit nobody else can do is a bit out of line...and I do hear that now and then.

Most mobile tweener forwards can guard 2-4 at least.

Hell Magic Johnson guarded 1-5....just not that well. Which is clearly an issue...just saying...its not shocking for a super mobile guy in the 6'8'' range to be able to cover the entire other team.

Shane Battier went 1-4....so could Deng...Darius Miles ive seen play 5 positions and guard 4. Tmac ive seen guard 1-4.

That's what tall quick forwards do.

West-Side

10-13-2015, 03:10 PM

All you can do really is try figure out who was more versatile between Pippen, Lebron & Pistons Rodman (or simply who was better at it).

Pippen compared to Lebron/Rodman was a nudge better at handling perimeter guys.

Rodman compared to Lebron/Pippen was a nudge better at handling the big guys (interior).

Lebron however compared to Rodman/Pippen was like inbetween both of their pros & cons compared to eachother, i mean he could defend the big guys better than Pippen (but not perimeter equally well) as he was bigger/stronger & could defend the perimeter better than Rodman (but not the big guys/interior equally well) as he was faster/more athletic.

Watch & Learn (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKtur6F5Jy0)

When did Garnett, Pippen, Jordan or LeBron EVER cover 1 through 5 with actual success. Rodman has assignments on MULTIPLE occasions to cover 1 thourgh 5 for an ENTIRE quarter, or game.

Rodman was shorter than Pippen and only 0.03 m taller than Jordan. Yet he was the one guarding Karl Malone or Shaquille O'Neal or Charles Barkley or Shawn Kemp or Magic Johnson or Clyde Drexler.

When it comes to versatility, it is what Dennis was known for. Garnett may sporadically try to scare a small point guard by guarding him on the perimeter; clap his hands in the air and intimidate him with his presence, and most of the time he'd get beat. Garnett is a versatile defender against SF, PF & C. He is not quick enough to guard guys like Isiah Thomas. Guess what? Rodman can and did.

This is ****ing stupid, go watch the 80's/90's basketball.
There's a reason Rodman won DPOTY twice as a 6'6 SF/PF.

pauk

10-13-2015, 03:11 PM

Pointguard

10-13-2015, 03:12 PM

What is your definition of "spot duty"?????
Read any of his post ~ it means not Jordan

pauk

10-13-2015, 03:14 PM

Watch & Learn (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKtur6F5Jy0)

When did Garnett, Pippen, Jordan or LeBron EVER cover 1 through 5 with actual success. Rodman has assignments on MULTIPLE occasions to cover 1 thourgh 5 for an ENTIRE quarter, or game.

Rodman was shorter than Pippen and only 0.03 m taller than Jordan. Yet he was the one guarding Karl Malone or Shaquille O'Neal or Charles Barkley or Shawn Kemp or Magic Johnson or Clyde Drexler.

When it comes to versatility, it is what Dennis was known for. Garnett may sporadically try to scare a small point guard by guarding him on the perimeter; clap his hands in the air and intimidate him with his presence, and most of the time he'd get beat. Garnett is a versatile defender against SF, PF & C. He is not quick enough to guard guys like Isiah Thomas. Guess what? Rodman can and did.

This is ****ing stupid, go watch the 80's/90's basketball.
There's a reason Rodman won DPOTY twice as a 6'6 SF/PF.

Oh dont worry, i would pick Rodman (pistons rodman) over anybody when talking about defense / versatility, ive seen his shit... much of it currently actually during my 80s Jordan games flop footage hunt. :P

Pointguard

10-13-2015, 03:30 PM

Kevin Garnett cant guard small forwards?

[B]</H1>
Besides KG defended swingmen for years early in his career when Googs guarded 4s a lot of the time. KG would defend pretty much...whoever.
Thanks KG made his reputation guarding SFs. He wasn't a great team defender until like 02.

To the new posters to this thread, versatility also includes anchoring the defense, a great communicator, rim protector, blocks, steals, anticipation, defensive rebounding among several other things.

zeerghit

10-13-2015, 03:32 PM

PEAK KIRILENKO GOT TO BE ON THE LIST! hes was insane...

3ball

10-13-2015, 03:54 PM

Kirelinko was legit, for the few seasons he was in his prime with no injuries.

He could guard PG thru PF as the PRIMARY defender at a near-elite level... Which is better than most of the other guys mentioned itt, who aren't elite as primary defenders and are only useful in spot-duty scenarios... (other than their career best defensive game that people itt want to bring up as if that was the norm.)
.

3ball

10-13-2015, 03:57 PM

Thanks KG made his reputation guarding SFs.

lies

3ball

10-13-2015, 03:57 PM

Kevin Garnett can't guard small forwards (or Lebron and Pippen can't guard PF's or PG's)???

Maybe spot duty, but not at an elite level as the primary, all-game defender.. These guys have literally 1 or 2 instances in their entire career where they guarded these positions WELL for an entire game, whereas there are many instances they get torched trying to be the primary, all-game defender on these other positions.

Look at the time KG was matched up with MJ for the whole game - MJ scored 35 points, including 6-11 for 14 points on KG - compare that to Lebron's 9 ppg average vs. Iggy in the Finals, on 35% shooting.. At times it got embarrassing for KG, as MJ would score on him literally 5 possessions in a row (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=embqhggoep4&t=4m00s) - even the hometown announcers had to capitulate.

when Googs guarded 4s a lot of the time... KG would defend pretty much...whoever.

Wait a minute... Are you trying to say KG was an elite, primary/all-game defender on SF's the way Pippen is??... Are you trying to say KG was elite guarding Centers like Hakeem or Dikembe?... Because that's just a flat-out lie... End of story... Same thing with Pippen and Lebron - neither are elite, primary defenders on PG's or PF's.

Otoh, MJ served as the primary defender many times the 1, 2 and 3 spots, and guarded them all at All-NBA level for his entire Bulls career.. Since MJ was could be an ELITE, PRIMARY defender on more positions, he's the more versatile defender..
.

zeerghit

10-13-2015, 04:01 PM

West-Side

10-13-2015, 04:10 PM

i read this forum for long time.. can we get straight is peak kirilenko better defender than peak MJ ? real question.

No, :oldlol: .

3ball

10-13-2015, 04:12 PM

i read this forum for long time.. can we get straight is peak kirilenko better defender than peak MJ ? real question.
Most of the guys listed itt only did spot duty or had a single great performance as the primary, all-game defender on another positions.

Kirelinko is more versatile than a lot of those guys, because he defended other positions besides his own at an elite level as the primary, all-game defender - in his prime he could be defend SG's at an elite level as the primary defender.

But MJ defended the 1, 2 and 3 spots as the primary, all-game defender at an all-time level.. No other player can say this - not even Sidney Moncrief - he didn't guard the 3 at an all-time level.. Too little... Kirelinko wasn't an elite defender of PG's.... Just spot duty.

zeerghit

10-13-2015, 04:20 PM

Most of the guys listed itt only did spot duty or had a single great performance as the primary, all-game defender on another positions.

Kirelinko is more versatile than a lot of those guys, because he defended other positions besides his own at an elite level as the primary, all-game defender - in his prime he could be defend SG's at an elite level as the primary defender.

But MJ defended the 1, 2 and 3 spots as the primary, all-game defender at an all-time level.. No other player can say this - not even Sidney Moncrief - he didn't guard the 3 at an all-time level.. Too little... Kirelinko wasn't an elite defender of PG's.... Just spot duty.
so whos better owerall? pick just one.

3ball

10-13-2015, 04:33 PM

so whos better owerall? pick just one.
MJ easily.

Again, MJ defended the 1, 2 and 3 spots as the primary, all-game defender at an all-time level.. That's all 3 positions, defended as the primary defender, at an all-time level.. Let that sink in.

No other player can say this - not even Sidney Moncrief - he didn't guard the 3 at an all-time level.. Too little... And a guy like Kirelinko wasn't an elite defender of PG's.... Just spot duty.

Kblaze8855

10-13-2015, 04:33 PM

These guys have literally 1 or 2 instances in their entire career where they guarded these positions WELL for an entire game

KG guarded a 3 well one or two times in his CAREER?

You are just bannably dishonest at times.

And not in the way you twist things....ask if someone means something they did not say....and then say they lied about something you only say they said....

If you think KG only guarded 3s and did it well once or twice in his career you are under 25 years old...or lying.

Go on youtube right now....put in 1997 or 1998 Timberwolves. click the game vs the Heat....who is he guarding? Jamal Mashburn. Scroll to the game vs the Rockets. Who is he on? Clyde Drexler. notice Barkley back down on Googs for 10 seconds and bully him for the layup? KG is on...DREXLER. First few plays...cant miss it.

Garnett guarded swingmen for years.

You arent talking to children.

Many of us remember the 90s,.

Vs the Bulls...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEn-CYnwcl4

Hes guarding Scottie Pippen.

Rockets

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwPwosrsBaI

Guarding drexler

Vs the Heat...

This is all of Mashburns 16 points...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwPwosrsBaI

Notice KG is defending him the entire game? He had 16 on under 39% shooting though I suspect you try to spin that into being awful defense. Mash gave people a lot more than that. He gave Pippen a lot of a 50 point night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1WsoD7bvcA

Guarding Cedric Ceballos to open the game. Cedric dunks on him and he dunks on him back a bit later.

Kevin Garnett often guarded the best 2-3-4 for YEARS.

He did fine on Drexler, Mashburn, Pippen...Tmac says KG played the best defense he ever faced....

People watched this happen. You dont get to decide what the truth is.

KG guarded swingmen night in night out....and he did well on them all the time. He doesnt have to stay glued to one man the entire night.

People as versitile as he is often move around.

You can spot him guard 4 positions in the above videos alone(He was on Elden vs the Lakers at one point).

Watch clips of him vs the Sonics...guarded Detlef and Kemp.

KG could and did guard people at the 2 and 3 for years. You can pull a clip of anyone getting burned. That happens...when you guard good players.

Fact is he guarded perimeter players all the time in the 90s and into the 2000s. That a star could have a solid game vs him takes nothing from that. Stars have solid to great games on everyone.

3ball

10-13-2015, 04:35 PM

KG could and did guard people at the 2 and 3 for years.

Mostly spot duty only - usually not as the primary, all-game defender.. When he was the primary defender on those positions, he was nowhere near elite in that capacity as primary defender, and got torched like we saw against 38-year old MJ... I mean, did you even see the gifs - KG is NOT capable of staying in front of quick wings... That's obvious.

Wait a minute... Are you trying to say KG was an elite, primary/all-game defender on SF's the way Pippen is??... Are you trying to say KG was elite guarding Centers like Hakeem or Dikembe?... Because that's just a flat-out lie... End of story... Same thing with Pippen and Lebron - neither are elite, primary defenders on PG's or PF's.

Otoh, MJ served as the primary defender many times the 1, 2 and 3 spots, and guarded them all at All-NBA level for his entire Bulls career.. Since MJ was could be an ELITE, PRIMARY defender on more positions, he's the more versatile defender..
.

Kblaze8855

10-13-2015, 04:43 PM

A gif of Joe Dumars scoring on Jordan...would not mean Jordan cant defend strong quick combo guards.

It means good players score on anyone. Stop this nonsense.

zeerghit

10-13-2015, 04:44 PM

MJ easily.

Again, MJ defended the 1, 2 and 3 spots as the primary, all-game defender at an all-time level.. That's all 3 positions, defended as the primary defender, at an all-time level.. Let that sink in.

No other player can say this - not even Sidney Moncrief - he didn't guard the 3 at an all-time level.. Too little... And a guy like Kirelinko wasn't an elite defender of PG's.... Just spot duty.
u are blind.. i give u mj is the best, end of story. i agree. but peak mj as defender is nowhere close to peak kirilenko, igi,bowen etc. whe wasted so many energy on off.. cmon man get it real! we all know MJ is the best.

3ball

10-13-2015, 04:58 PM

A gif of Joe Dumars scoring on Jordan...would not mean Jordan cant defend strong quick combo guards.

A gif, as in singular?... See - right away you're wrong and showing your refusal to see facts with your own two eyes:

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-13-2015/Gqj_R5.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-13-2015/JbjSUP.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-13-2015/YUoumL.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-13-2015/7Erpnn.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-13-2015/gouE2P.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-13-2015/NgIe3U.gif

It's pretty obvious that KG can't stay in front of quick wings.. Show me another time in the history of basketball where a defender gets beat THIS BAD, THIS MANY TIMES off-the-dribble... I'll wait

This makes my point - guys like KG and Pippen who do spot duty on both perimeter and interior players are only doing SPOT DUTY... They can't defend these other positions at an elite level as the primary, all-game defender.. Pippen isn't an elite, primary defender on PF's or PG's and neither is Garnett on SF's or Centers.

When KG had to guard a quick SF for an entire game (38 year old Jordan), Jordan destroyed him - he had 35 points, including 6-11 for 14 points on KG - compare that to Lebron's 9 ppg average vs. Iggy in the Finals, on 35% shooting.. At times it got embarrassing for KG, as MJ would score on him literally 5 possessions in a row (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=embqhggoep4&t=4m00s) - even the hometown announcers had to capitulate.

Otoh, MJ served as the primary defender many times the 1, 2 and 3 spots, and guarded them all at All-NBA level for his entire Bulls career.. Since MJ was could be an elite, PRIMARY defender on more positions, he's the more versatile defender.

97 bulls

10-13-2015, 05:06 PM

A gif of Joe Dumars scoring on Jordan...would not mean Jordan cant defend strong quick combo guards.

It means good players score on anyone. Stop this nonsense.
SHHH. YOU'RE MAKING TOO MUCH SENSE.

Kblaze8855

10-13-2015, 05:10 PM

KG played 1600 games. That you harp on 14 seconds tells me allI need to know about who im dealing with. Not that I didnt know you were a joke to begin with. You may have the worst grasp on the words "proves" and "cant" ive ever seen.

97 bulls

10-13-2015, 05:13 PM

I'd just like to know what 3balls definition of "spot duty" is

3ball

10-13-2015, 05:22 PM

I alrady gave the definition earllier itt.

97 bulls

10-13-2015, 05:25 PM

I alrady gave the definition earllier itt.
Must have missed it. What did you say? Or post

3ball

10-13-2015, 05:37 PM

Anytime you're not the primary, all-game defender, you're doing spot duty.

3ball

10-13-2015, 05:40 PM

KG played 1600 games. That you harp on 14 seconds tells me allI need to know about who im dealing with.

I posted half a dozen gifs from a single game of 38-year old MJ beating Garnett as badly as IS POSSIBLE off the dribble..

This demonstrated pretty clearly how KG can't stay in front of quick wings, and therefore wasn't elite as a primary, all-game defender of SF's.. That's why he mainly defended them spot duty.

Not that I didnt know you were a joke to begin with. You may have the worst grasp on the words "proves" and "cant" ive ever seen.

You guys are the ones pinning your argument on rare exceptions where Garnett did well defending a SF for an entire game.. But that's an exception to the rule - we all know he wasn't an elite, PRIMARY defender on SF's like say, Pippen.

Wait a minute... Are you trying to say KG was an elite, primary/all-game defender on SF's the way Pippen is??... Are you trying to say KG was elite guarding Centers like Hakeem or Dikembe?... Because that's just a flat-out lie... End of story... Same thing with Pippen and Lebron - neither are elite, primary defenders on PG's or PF's.

Otoh, MJ served as the primary defender many times the 1, 2 and 3 spots, and guarded them all at All-NBA level for his entire Bulls career.. Since MJ was could be an ELITE, PRIMARY defender on more positions, he's the more versatile defender.

Kblaze8855

10-13-2015, 05:42 PM

97 bulls

10-13-2015, 06:11 PM

Anytime you're not the primary, all-game defender, you're doing spot duty.
Ok. But I and others have shown you clips and data and quotes of players actually.defending players for an entire game and you refuse to acknowledge it. Hell I posted a link to a guy who actually made a website dedicated to defending Jordan, and he even disagrees with you.

Jordan was not the primary defender on 1, 2, and 3s. He was the primary defender on SGs. He didn't routinely check Wilkins, Hill, Rice, McDaniel etc or Stockton, Johnson (Kevin) etc. The SF and PG did. Pippen didnt routinely check players outside of the SF position as well.

On occasions, they both were called upon, but it was rare. More often than not, Jackson had his playees guard their position.

90sgoat

10-13-2015, 06:23 PM

KG guarded a 3 well one or two times in his CAREER?

You are just bannably dishonest at times.

And not in the way you twist things....ask if someone means something they did not say....and then say they lied about something you only say they said....

If you think KG only guarded 3s and did it well once or twice in his career you are under 25 years old...or lying.

Go on youtube right now....put in 1997 or 1998 Timberwolves. click the game vs the Heat....who is he guarding? Jamal Mashburn. Scroll to the game vs the Rockets. Who is he on? Clyde Drexler. notice Barkley back down on Googs for 10 seconds and bully him for the layup? KG is on...DREXLER. First few plays...cant miss it.

Garnett guarded swingmen for years.

You arent talking to children.

Many of us remember the 90s,.

Vs the Bulls...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEn-CYnwcl4

Hes guarding Scottie Pippen.

Rockets

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwPwosrsBaI

Guarding drexler

Vs the Heat...

This is all of Mashburns 16 points...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwPwosrsBaI

Notice KG is defending him the entire game? He had 16 on under 39% shooting though I suspect you try to spin that into being awful defense. Mash gave people a lot more than that. He gave Pippen a lot of a 50 point night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1WsoD7bvcA

Guarding Cedric Ceballos to open the game. Cedric dunks on him and he dunks on him back a bit later.

Kevin Garnett often guarded the best 2-3-4 for YEARS.

He did fine on Drexler, Mashburn, Pippen...Tmac says KG played the best defense he ever faced....

People watched this happen. You dont get to decide what the truth is.

KG guarded swingmen night in night out....and he did well on them all the time. He doesnt have to stay glued to one man the entire night.

People as versitile as he is often move around.

You can spot him guard 4 positions in the above videos alone(He was on Elden vs the Lakers at one point).

Watch clips of him vs the Sonics...guarded Detlef and Kemp.

KG could and did guard people at the 2 and 3 for years. You can pull a clip of anyone getting burned. That happens...when you guard good players.

Fact is he guarded perimeter players all the time in the 90s and into the 2000s. That a star could have a solid game vs him takes nothing from that. Stars have solid to great games on everyone.

Yeah ok, Mr. I watched the 90s give me a cooke.

The reason Garnett guarded 3's in the 90s is because - surprise - he was actually listed and played as 3 and small forward because he was laughably soft and skinny and got bullied in the post.

Yes, thats right kids, KG was considered SOFT and attacked relentlessly for his cowardly refusal to play the post as a 7 footer. Such were the 90s.

When Garnett guarded 3s in the 90s it was because he COULD NOT guard PFs. Put Garnett on Kemp or Dale Davis or Malone and it would be murder back then.

As he gained muscle and weight he could guard 4s but then wasn't good at guarding 3s which he actually never was.

3ball

10-13-2015, 06:27 PM

Do you really expect a response to you copy pasting your posts 12 times?

Explain to me why that isn't spamming.

Why should you be filing topics with repeat posts and not be banned exactly?

This isn't normal.

That's all you guys can do - you're never right about anything when arguing with me, so all you can do is cry about copy-and-pasting.

I only re-paste stuff that hasn't been refuted, which is pretty much everything, like this for example:

Are you trying to say KG was an elite, primary/all-game defender on SF's the way Pippen is??... Are you trying to say KG was elite guarding Centers like Hakeem or Dikembe?... Because that's just a flat-out lie... End of story... Same thing with Pippen and Lebron - neither are elite, primary defenders on PG's or PF's.

Otoh, MJ served as the primary defender many times the 1, 2 and 3 spots, and guarded them all at All-NBA level for his entire Bulls career.. Since MJ was could be an ELITE, PRIMARY defender on more positions, he's the more versatile defender.

Smoke117

10-13-2015, 06:29 PM

The only player 3ball knows any "facts" about is Jordan. Anyone else and he twists/diminishes everything to raise Jordan on some pedestal above everyone else. Like this nonsense that Pippen didn't defend pg's (or ever had to run a team as a real pg for that matter) but only on "spot duty" as he calls it. I already buried that nonsense with the easy to recall fact that on his last year on the blazers he WAS THE STARTING PG and he matched up with them every night offensively and defensively. And you know what? He was still one of the best defensive players on the Blazers even at 37 with a bad back and a knee that was having to be drained regularly.

This nonsense with KG just shows how full of shit and unaware of anyone not Jordan he really is. Everyone knows KG came into the league as a sf and up into the mid 2000s was regularly moving out on the perimeter to defend them.

3ball

10-13-2015, 07:00 PM

And you know what? He was still one of the best defensive players on the Blazers even at 37 with a bad back and a knee that was having to be drained regularly.

Nah, I don't know that because that's bullshit, feel-good, poppycock you just came up with and it's opposite of the truth - Pippen was a bad defender as a Blazer - horrible, actually... I'll ask you the same shit I posed to Kblaze, who is now ghost because he couldn't respond to it, just like you won't be able to:

Are you trying to say KG was elite as the primary/all-game defender of SF's like Pippen, Michael Cooper or Paul George were?... THOSE GUYS are what elite, primary defenders of SF's look like... and they're a stark contrast from Garnett guarding a 38-year old man and looking like Matt Bonner defending Damian Lillard...

That kind of repeated, embarrassing blow-bys never happened to Pippen, Cooper, George or anyone else that was elite at being the primary defender on SF's... Also, are you trying to say KG was an elite, primary defender of centers like Hakeem or Dikembe?... Because again, that's just a flat-out lie... End of story... Same thing with Pippen and Lebron - neither are elite, primary defenders on PG's or PF's.

Otoh, MJ served as the primary defender many times the 1, 2 and 3 spots, and guarded them all at All-NBA level for his entire Bulls career.. Since MJ was could be an ELITE, PRIMARY defender on more positions, he's the more versatile defender.. /thread

Kblaze8855

10-13-2015, 07:07 PM

This dude literally made one post and copied it 7 times in the last page or two...but if I ban him for spamming then I'm the asshole.....

Entering the euroleague territory where something is clearly wrong beyond absurd basketball beliefs.

3ball

10-13-2015, 07:10 PM

Nah, I don't know that because that's bullshit, feel-good, poppycock you just came up with and it's opposite of the truth - Pippen was a bad defender as a Blazer - horrible, actually... I'll ask you the same shit I posed to Kblaze, who is now ghost because he couldn't respond to it, just like you won't be able to:

Are you trying to say KG was elite as the primary/all-game defender of SF's like Pippen, Michael Cooper or Paul George were?... THOSE GUYS are what elite, primary defenders of SF's look like... and they're a stark contrast from prime Garnett guarding a 38-year old man and looking like Matt Bonner defending Damian Lillard...

That kind of repeated, embarrassing blow-bys never happened to Pippen, Cooper, George or anyone else that was elite at being the primary defender on SF's... Also, are you trying to say KG was an elite, primary defender of centers like Hakeem or Dikembe?... Because again, that's just a flat-out lie... End of story... Same thing with Pippen and Lebron - neither are elite, primary defenders on PG's or PF's.

Otoh, MJ served as the primary defender many times the 1, 2 and 3 spots, and guarded them all at All-NBA level for his entire Bulls career.. Since MJ was could be an ELITE, PRIMARY defender on more positions, he's the more versatile defender.. /thread

Like I thought - Smoke117 - no response to the bolded above, just like Kblaze... All they can do is complain about me re-pasting shit that wasn't refuted.. :confusedshrug:

Smoke117

10-13-2015, 07:18 PM

Nah, I don't know that because that's bullshit, feel-good, poppycock you just came up with and it's opposite of the truth - Pippen was a bad defender as a Blazer - horrible, actually... I'll ask you the same shit I posed to Kblaze, who is now ghost because he couldn't respond to it, just like you won't be able to:

Are you trying to say KG was elite as the primary/all-game defender of SF's like Pippen, Michael Cooper or Paul George were?... THOSE GUYS are what elite, primary defenders of SF's look like... and they're a stark contrast from Garnett guarding a 38-year old man and looking like Matt Bonner defending Damian Lillard...

That kind of repeated, embarrassing blow-bys never happened to Pippen, Cooper, George or anyone else that was elite at being the primary defender on SF's... Also, are you trying to say KG was an elite, primary defender of centers like Hakeem or Dikembe?... Because again, that's just a flat-out lie... End of story... Same thing with Pippen and Lebron - neither are elite, primary defenders on PG's or PF's.

Otoh, MJ served as the primary defender many times the 1, 2 and 3 spots, and guarded them all at All-NBA level for his entire Bulls career.. Since MJ was could be an ELITE, PRIMARY defender on more positions, he's the more versatile defender.. /thread

It's embarrassing how little you know. I watched nearly EVERY Blazer game between 2001 and the 2003 season, but I Just came up with this. I doubt you even saw even a handful of regular season Blazer games in that span and maybe a couple games in the playoffs. You just run your mouth and spew nonsense. If you think Pippen was a "horrible" defensive player on the Blazers than you just have no idea what you are talking about. Guys like Garnett, Pippen, Robinson, Kidd...doesn't matter how old they got...they were always good defensive players because they had great basketball IQ's and they had that defensive demeanor no matter how old they got.

You say you want us to respond to your nonsense...we are. We are responding it by ignoring it like the bullshit it is.

Kblaze8855

10-13-2015, 07:19 PM

I told you some time ago that you asking if someone thinks something they didn't say and calling them a liar for something you made up isn't an argument. you just keep repeating yourself because you are either troubled or intentionally spamming to annoy people.

And I let you do it because banning people is against my general policy for merely being annoying.

You really aren't good at making a case. I can tell that you think you are but you are one of the least effective point makers here mostly because you don't seem to have any idea how to adjust your message to make someone see what you're trying to say. You say one thing people disagree and you just say it over and over and over as if you thinking it means anything.

An argument on repeat doesn't get better the 50th time you hear it made.

How someone takes such a clearly correct premise... that Michael Jordan is great...probably the greatest... and be so terrible at explaining it...

it would be fascinating if you weren't so abrasive in the process.

3ball

10-13-2015, 07:28 PM

If you think Pippen was a "horrible" defensive player on the Blazers than you just have no idea what you are talking about.

Maybe "horrible" is too strong a word.... But he was a bad man-on-man defender as a Blazer... He partially made up for it with his accumulated smarts from a long career, but he was still in the bottom 2/3 of the league as far as defense.. So he was basically average, and I'm being reeeaally nice here.

Btw, I don't have to ignore your posts - I simply expose them for the bullshit they are.

Otoh, you can't expose my posts as bullshit - for that to happen in this thread, you'd have to say Garnett was elite at being the primary, all-game defender on SF's, just like Pippen, Paul George, or Michael Cooper were... This is obviously ridiculous, even without seeing Garnett guarding a 38-year old man and looking like Matt Bonner defending Damian Lillard

Accordingly, you choose not to respond and say my posts are bullshit instead... It's okay... I understand... I know where your head's at and if I was afraid like you, I'd probably do the same thing.

3ball

10-13-2015, 08:15 PM

Otoh, for you to expose my posts itt as bullshit, you'd have to say Garnett was elite at being the primary, all-game defender on SF's, just like Pippen, Paul George, or Michael Cooper were... This is obviously ridiculous, even without seeing Garnett guarding a 38-year old man and looking like Matt Bonner defending Damian Lillard

that'll do it folks... /thread

sdot_thadon

10-13-2015, 09:40 PM

Maybe "horrible" is too strong a word.... But he was a bad man-on-man defender as a Blazer... He partially made up for it with his accumulated smarts from a long career, but he was still in the bottom 2/3 of the league as far as defense.. So he was basically average, and I'm being reeeaally nice here.

Btw, I don't have to ignore your posts - I simply expose them for the bullshit they are.

Otoh, you can't expose my posts as bullshit - for that to happen in this thread, you'd have to say Garnett was elite at being the primary, all-game defender on SF's, just like Pippen, Paul George, or Michael Cooper were... This is obviously ridiculous, even without seeing Garnett guarding a 38-year old man and looking like Matt Bonner defending Damian Lillard

Accordingly, you choose not to respond and say my posts are bullshit instead... It's okay... I understand... I know where your head's at and if I was afraid like you, I'd probably do the same thing.
If only your posts didn't constantly get exposed for being completely bullshit though. I still like the way you made up an imaginary boundary for the discussion.

"Primary defender"

No one feels this is significant to the discussion but you, only because in your mind it somehow makes mj relevant in a discussion he doesn't belong in. In my original post I made no mention of primary defenders and how that equals or doesn't equal versatility. The question I posed was who had the most defensive utility......hint, it's not Mj and it won't ever be.

3ball

10-14-2015, 12:17 AM

"Primary defender"

No one feels this is significant to the discussion but you

No one feels it's significant enough to discuss????... Really???... Look at the last 4 pages of the thread - that's all we've been talking about... You're so delusional.

juju151111

10-14-2015, 12:38 AM

It's no more imaginary then the boundaries you set for what was considered "versatile"... But here's the factual reality:

KG was an ELITE PRIMARY DEFENDER on 1 position - PF.

Pippen was an ELITE PRIMARY DEFENDER of 2 positions - SF and maybe SG.

Young Rodman was an ELITE PRIMARY DEFENDER of 2 positions - SF and PF.. Old Rodman as a Bull - only PF

Meanwhile, MJ was an ELITE PRIMARY DEFENDER of 3 positions - the 1, 2, and 3.

So none of these guys were an elite, primary defender on as many positions as MJ... I could care less what anybody thinks because I know this is true.
Stop your BS Rodman was Elite on all 5 positions.

3ball

10-14-2015, 12:42 AM

Stop your BS Rodman was Elite on all 5 positions.

Not as a primary, all-game defender.

As a primary defender, young rodman was only elite defending the 3 and 4 spots... and old rodman (as a Bull) was only an elite primary defender on PF's.. There's a reason the Pistons only let rodman guard MJ in spot duty, not the whole game.

KG was an elite primary defender on 1 position - PF.... Pippen was an elite primary defender on 2 positions - SF and maybe SG.

Meanwhile, MJ was an elite primary defender of 3 positions - the 1, 2, and 3.. So none of these guys were an elite, primary defender on as many positions as MJ... I could care less what anybody thinks because I know this is true.

Pointguard

10-14-2015, 01:04 AM

Not as a primary, all-game defender.

As a primary defender, young rodman was only elite defending the 3 and 4 spots... and old rodman (as a Bull) was only an elite primary defender on PF's.. There's a reason the Pistons only let rodman guard MJ in spot duty, not the whole game.

KG was an elite primary defender on 1 position - PF.... Pippen was an elite primary defender on 2 positions - SF and maybe SG.

Meanwhile, MJ was an elite primary defender of 3 positions - the 1, 2, and 3.. So none of these guys were an elite, primary defender on as many positions as MJ... I could care less what anybody thinks because I know this is true.
You are trying to convince yourself soo hard.

ProfessorMurder

10-14-2015, 05:04 AM

KG was an elite primary defender on 1 position - PF.
.

:roll: Just pfs? Get f*cked.

3ball

10-14-2015, 05:21 AM

:roll: Just pfs? Get f*cked.

Guys like Pippen and Paul George were elite at being the primary, all-game defenders on SF's..

KG is not...

Hakeem and Dikembe were elite primary defenders on centers..

KG is not..

The only position where KG is an elite primary defender is PF.

sdot_thadon

10-14-2015, 07:41 AM

No one feels it's significant enough to discuss????... Really???... Look at the last 4 pages of the thread - that's all we've been talking about... You're so delusional.
You can't be this much of an idiot by accident. They are talking about your stupid claims of people only being able to guard one position when there is tons of video evidence proving otherwise. No one even mentioned much about this primary defender shit until you made the most idiotic claims about pippen and kg.

Mj= perimeter defender

Pippen= perimeter/ post defender
Kg= perimeter/ post defender

Gg.

3ball

10-14-2015, 07:51 AM

Mj= perimeter defender

Pippen= perimeter/ post defender
Kg= perimeter/ post defender

KG would never be considered a "perimeter defender" and Pippen would never be considered a "post" defender - neither is good at it, which is why rarely were the primary, all-game defender at these positions.

Also, there's more than 1 way to judge or define defensive versatility.. One way would be: how many positions can a player defend at an elite level as the primary, all-game defender?.. It's a perfectly viable way to judge versatility, among others.. And when we define versatility in the aforementioned fashion, we get this:

KG was an elite primary defender on 1 position - PF.

Pippen was an elite primary defender of 2 positions - SF and maybe SG.

Young Rodman was an elite primary defender of 2 positions - SF and PF... Old Rodman, only PF

MJ was an elite primary defender of 3 positions - the 1, 2, and 3.. So MJ was an elite primary defender on the most positions, making him the most versatile.

sdot_thadon

10-14-2015, 07:52 AM

Guys like Pippen and Paul George were elite at being the primary, all-game defenders on SF's..

KG is not...

Hakeem and Dikembe were elite primary defenders on centers..

KG is not..

The only position where KG is an elite primary defender is PF.
P.s.
You have the biggest shit for brains moment of the thread:

Trying to convince the crowd that somehow being assigned to defend ONE position as "primary" makes you more versatile than someone required to handle MULTIPLE assignments in the same game.

3ball

10-14-2015, 08:25 AM

You have the biggest shit for brains moment of the thread

Determining how many positions can a player defend at an elite level as the primary, all-game defender is just one way to measure defensive versatility - and under this method, MJ is the most versatile.
.

Uncle Drew

10-14-2015, 08:29 AM

Guys like Pippen and Paul George were elite at being the primary, all-game defenders on SF's..

KG is not...

Hakeem and Dikembe were elite primary defenders on centers..

KG is not..

The only position where KG is an elite primary defender is PF.
http://reactiongifs.me/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/barney-stinson-kill-myself-boring-suicide-neil-patrick-harris-How-I-Met-Your-Mother.gif

sdot_thadon

10-14-2015, 08:39 AM

http://reactiongifs.me/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/barney-stinson-kill-myself-boring-suicide-neil-patrick-harris-How-I-Met-Your-Mother.gif
:oldlol:

3ball

10-14-2015, 08:43 AM

Out of everyone mentioned itt, MJ could guard the most positions at an elite level for an entire game.

/thread

3ball

10-14-2015, 08:44 AM

:roll:

3ball

10-14-2015, 08:56 AM

http://reactiongifs.me/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/barney-stinson-kill-myself-boring-suicide-neil-patrick-harris-How-I-Met-Your-Mother.gif

Don't be frustrated.. I'd like to help you understand, so think about it this way.. It's all about who can guard the most positions at an elite level for a whole game - who can be elite as the primary, all-game defender on the most positions?

Let's go through some examples.. Pippen and Paul George are elite as the primary, all-game defenders on SF's.... Whereas a guy like Garnett is not... Also, Hakeem and Dikembe are elite as the primary, all-game defenders on centers.. Again, Garnett is not.. The only position where Garnett is elite as the primary defender is PF.

Same thing with Pippen and Lebron - they can't guard PG's or PF's at an elite level for a whole game, like say Payton and Rodman can, respectively... The only two positions that Pippen and Lebron can guard at an elite level for an entire game is SF, and maybe SG.

Otoh, MJ could defend the PG, SG, and SF positions at an elite level for an entire game.. Accordingly, since MJ was an elite, primary defender on more positions, he's the more versatile PRIMARY defender - he can guard more positions for an entire game at an elite level than Lebron, Pippen, Garnett and many more so-called versatile defenders.. Those guys are versatile in other ways (like doing spot duty on both perimeter and interior players), but not as primary, all-game defenders.

Kblaze8855

10-14-2015, 09:35 AM

perhaps even worse than his endless attempts to bring down anyone compared to Jordan are his ridiculous claims on how unique Jordan was.

Several great defensive 2 guards would be elite from 1 to 3. Just in the last few years Tony Allen and Iggy could guard everyone from a rose to Kevin Durant and LeBron at a top flight level. nobody has ranked them most versatile with the likes Pippe, Kg, and Rodman and nobody ever will.

is pretty much a size thing. If you have the size to defend a big man and the quickness to defend wings you can cover most of the NBA. Rodman as of about 1992 might have 12 people in the entire NBA you would expect to just go to town on him due to the defensive mismatch. The quickest of the quick guards and the strongest most polished big men.

And they wouldn't do any more damage than they would do to each other. Rodman guards Hakeem he's not going to do anymore than he's capable of versus anyone. He gave Mutombo 50 he could give Rodman 50. it wouldn't be because Rodman can't defend centers it would be because nobody can defend Hakeem.

he would be a reasonable match up vs all the absolute quickest guards. being able to fill a hole virtually anywhere is what versatility is to most. these people give the coach the most options.

Jordan was a hellacious defender but he just was not a reasonable match up for as many players due to size.

Ive seen Kevin Garnett guard Hawkins and Kemp in the same game. Hakeem and Drexler. play what T Mac called the best defense he's ever faced one game and guard Tim Duncan another.

when you can guard the best scoring perimeter and second best interior player you give your team options. which is all this is about.

GIF REACTION

10-14-2015, 09:45 AM

Rodman/Lebron/Pippen/KG

I mean I've seen Lebron shut down peak Derrick Rose, Tony Parker, Pau Gasol, Al Jefferson, etc etc

Not many guys have both the speed and the strength/size to do it

GIF REACTION

10-14-2015, 10:09 AM

http://i.imgur.com/fWslCso.png

http://i.imgur.com/IPMXTmD.png

Held 6-10 290 pound Big Al Jefferson to 0 points in the 4th

GIF REACTION

10-14-2015, 10:16 AM

http://jimrome.com/2015/06/02/brian-scalabrine/

Check out the 2013 podcast "NBA Playoffs"

Pointguard

10-14-2015, 12:52 PM

perhaps even worse than his endless attempts to bring down anyone compared to Jordan are his ridiculous claims on how unique Jordan was.
True, the way 3ball was talking about Jordan going 6 for 11 (and 2 of the baskets were made with KG picked off) you would swear Jordan was some common scrub. Any true scorer can pull that off and the greatest defender.

Several great defensive 2 guards would be elite from 1 to 3. Just in the last few years Tony Allen and Iggy could guard everyone from a rose to Kevin Durant and LeBron at a top flight level. nobody has ranked them most versatile with the likes Pippe, Kg, and Rodman and nobody ever will.
Yes common place for them to do so. Tony Allen and Iggy will spend 30% of their time on the off position on defense. Anthony Mason on the Knicks would do that with a fourth position as well. But like you said, its physical size and foot movement that makes all the difference.

Jordan was a hellacious defender but he just was not a reasonable match up for as many players due to size.

Ive seen Kevin Garnett guard Hawkins and Kemp in the same game. Hakeem and Drexler. play what T Mac called the best defense he's ever faced one game and guard Tim Duncan another.

when you can guard the best scoring perimeter and second best interior player you give your team options. which is all this is about.
Great post and I will add that Hakeem who only guarded two positions was among the most versatile because he could get steals, blocks, anchor the defense, play team defense, cover others defensive mistakes, get defensive rebounds at a consistent higher rate better than anybody else.

Smoke117

10-14-2015, 03:52 PM

Who cares about this "primary defender" nonsense. Your versatility is not just measured by how many positions you can guard. There have been a lot of great individual defensive players come through the league, but their impact isn't there because that's all they really did. They didn't or couldn't impact the defense as far being a help/team defensive player. Kobe would be a good example of this in his prime...he put forth the effort when the man he was guarding had the ball...but he was lazy as hell as far as help and team defense. Besides the 2000 season he's always been a guy who was watching more than actively playing help/team defense.

3ball keeps throwing out that MJ was a better individual defender than Pippen...fine, sure. I don't care...it was a waste of Pippens talents to be put him on the opposing teams best scorer. He could wreak the most havok when he was able to play off his man and roam around...helping a teammate here, closing down a passing lane there etc etc. This is what made him able to actually anchor a defense like he did in 94 and especially 95. "The man is everywhere". During those 97 and 98 finals Jerry Sloan was furious and bitching the entire time saying Pippen was playing illegal defense because he was so effective at closing down the passing lanes for Stockton. I'm sure 3ball will come in here with his fanboy nonsense to refute this, but anyone who watched those two finals knows what went down defensively for the Bulls.

The point is that too many of you put too much stock in individual defense. The fact of the matter is if you are not athletic it's going to be hard to defend guys one on one. You can be the smartest most intelligent basketball player...but if don't have the athletic explosion to bounce off your knees and stay with a guy it's not going to matter. Larry Bird...great defender. One on one was he great? No...but he played fantastic help/team defense which made him regularly the most important and impactful defensive player on those Celtic teams.