Guards who had great impact into 'old' age?

[90sgoat]

I was thinking about Kobe and how everyone expects him to not be effective. It is well known that big men can impact games by a lot even in their last years, Tim Duncan being the best current example, but Karl Malone never really dropped much in production and Kareem of course continued to be valuable (though I think overrated in his last years). Robert Parish was a serviceable big until 40 years.

What about guards though?

Their man problem is defense. Speed is what goes the first, strenght can stay for decades after prime and technique never goes away. That is better for big men who can protect the paint and still contribute offensively position alone. Guards need to be able to guard their opponent who is usually the quickest guys on the floor.

I am thinking, which guards very impactful into their last years?

Jason Kidd had some of his best years in Dallas and Knicks impact wise. Stockton was goating until the end. MJ was decent for Wizards on a very poor team.

[Bosnian Sajo]

Ray Allen
Derek Fisher
Jason Terry
Dirk Nowitzki
Pau Gasol
Grant Hill

[GrapeApe]

Ray Allen
Derek Fisher
Jason Terry
Dirk Nowitzki
Pau Gasol
Grant Hill

:wtf:

I agree with Ray Allen though. Stockton as OP mentioned was great in his twilight years as well. Drexler averaged 19/6/5 with 1.8 steals in his final season.

[WayOfWade]

Ray allen for sure, I'm not sure if you can get any higher impact than this...
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/6/19/1371620325062/61ad7030-183c-4fee-9ef7-819bee444c0e-460x276.jpeg
As for other guards who had a pretty big impact despite being old, I feel inclined to say MJ even though he didn't even make the playoffs, but averaging 20 ppg at 40 years of age is pretty spectacular.
Reggie Miller was still doing pretty good, putting up 15/2/2 while being 40 and helping his team get to the Semifinals the year he retired.

[Bosnian Sajo]

:wtf:

I agree with Ray Allen though. Stockton as OP mentioned was great in his twilight years as well. Drexler averaged 19/6/5 with 1.8 steals in his final season.

Forgot title said guard as I was thinking of names :oldlol:

[NBAplayoffs2001]

As role players? Derek Harper. Brian Shaw was arguably the best passing PG on the 2001 Laker team.

[JimmyMcAdocious]

Nash, if you overlook his injured Lakers seasons. Didn't even peak util his 30s and even in his final years (at 36-38) he was still a very good PG in Phoenix with some real shitty rosters.

tbh I thought VC has aged miraculously well. He finally looks over the hill but damn he was a legit roleplayer just a couple seasons ago. Would have pegged him to be out of the league shortly after his prime. Nope. A testament to just how talented he was/is.

[Bosnian Sajo]

Agreed with VC. We used to think AI was ageing like wine before the trade to Detroit...straight up killed his career :ohwell:

[3ball]

the guard/wing position is definitely the hardest to maintain as you get older, because wings rely so heavily on quickness and athleticism.

has their ever been a pg, sg, or sf that averaged 20+ ppg at 35 years or older for a full season?

[Bosnian Sajo]

the guard/wing position is definitely the hardest to maintain as you get older, because wings rely so heavily on quickness and athleticism.

has their ever been a pg, sg, or sf that averaged 20+ ppg at 35 years or older for a full season?

Jordan, Kobe was averaging 27ppg at the age of 34. Can't think of anyone else.

[kennethgriffin]

Jordan, Kobe was averaging 27ppg at the age of 34. Can't think of anyone else.


jordans last 2 years on the wiz were seasons 14 and 15


a little different


if kobe retired after 2002

then came back for 2004.. he never needs knee surgery

then if he retires after 2010 and comes back in 2014.. he never needs achilles surgery


and he probably plays till age 40-42 without a hitch

[90sgoat]

I watched the Lakers-Detroit 1988 finals. Kareem gets way too much credit for his later seasons. He could easily have been replaced by a younger less skilled center. Which also means that Jordan's victory over the Lakers is more impressive, because Divac was definitely better than old man Kareem.

Old man Kareem was basically the skyhook that was the sole impact of his game.

Duncan is far more valuable at the same age than Kareem.

[ClipperRevival]

the guard/wing position is definitely the hardest to maintain as you get older, because wings rely so heavily on quickness and athleticism.

has their ever been a pg, sg, or sf that averaged 20+ ppg at 35 years or older for a full season?

Damm man, you talk about MJ all day but didn't even know that he hit 20+ ppg after the age of 35 3 times? And at 35, he was still by far and away the best player in the world.

Alex English averaged 26.5 ppg at 35 and he played 82 games.

[aj1987]

Damm man, you talk about MJ all day but didn't even know that he hit 20+ ppg after the age of 35 3 times? And at 35, he was still by far and away the best player in the world.

Alex English averaged 26.5 ppg at 35 and he played 82 games.
Nope.

[ClipperRevival]

Nope.

MJ wasn't by far and away the best player in 1998? Are you kidding?

[ClipperRevival]

MJ in 1997-98.

MVP
FMVP
All- NBA 1st team
All-NBA 1st Defensive team
All-Star Game MVP
32.4 ppg in playoffs
28.1 PER in playoffs

Thanks for playing.

[Bay Area Baller]

Jassssuuuunnn Kidd
Derriiick Fischerrrrr


2 guards with rings that have taken to Coaching with their oldnessss.:bowdown:

were good on court too even though their athleticism had left them. :bowdown:

[aj1987]

MJ wasn't by far and away the best player in 1998? Are you kidding?
Was he the best player in the league? Sure. By far? Nope.

[3ball]

Was he the best player in the league? Sure. By far? Nope.
Skill-wise, there was no one close.

Athletically, nba.com stats show us he got 89 dunks in 1998, as a 35 year old.. That's in the top 5% of the league (top 20)..

The old Philadelphia 76'er Media Guides and Harvey Pollack's statistics tell us he averaged about 130 dunks per season in his prime, with a high of 158 in 1988, the first year of available data (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352399).. The prior year in 1987 would've been his career high in dunks, since he attempted 27.1 shots per game that year (all hard-fought two's, no easy threes).

[JT123]

MJ in 1997-98.

MVP
FMVP
All- NBA 1st team
All-NBA 1st Defensive team
All-Star Game MVP
32.4 ppg in playoffs
28.1 PER in playoffs

Thanks for playing.
Shaq was a higher impact player than Jordan by that season. Jordan still had the better team though which is why he beat the Jazz in the playoffs despite putting up worse numbers than Shaq did.

[kennethgriffin]

MJ in 1997-98.

MVP
FMVP
All- NBA 1st team
All-NBA 1st Defensive team
All-Star Game MVP
32.4 ppg in playoffs
28.1 PER in playoffs

Thanks for playing.


1998 was jordans 13th season


realistically his 11th due to missing 90% of 86 and 95



kobes 11th season = 32/6/5, 1st team all nba, 1st team all defense
kobes 12th season = 28/6/5, 1st team all nba, 1st team all defense, NBA finals, NBA MVP
kobes 13th season = 27/5/5, 1st team all nba, 1st team all defense, NBA champion, Finals MVP
kobes 14th season = 27/5/5, 1st team all nba, 1st team all defense, NBA champion, Finals MVP
kobes 15th season = 25/5/5, 1st team all nba, 1st team all defense
kobes 16th season = 28/5/5, 1st team all nba, 2nd team all defense
kobes 17th season = 27/5/6, 1st team all nba











http://lakers.topbuzz.com/gallery/d/279511-2/Kobe+Bryant+gives+a+puzzled+look+during+NBA+Finals +2010+game+2+vs+the+Celtics.JPG

[ClipperRevival]

Shaq was a higher impact player than Jordan by that season. Jordan still had the better team though which is why he beat the Jazz in the playoffs despite putting up worse numbers than Shaq did.

Please. The 1997-98 Lakers are one of the most stacked teams ever. They underachieved. Shaq wasn't ready to win yet. Shaq, Kobe, Jones, Van Exel, Horry, Fox and Fish.

MJ was still by far and away the best player in the game in 1997-98. Individual dominance can't hold a candle to being the best player who can make his teammates better. Shaq wasn't ready to win yet.

[iTare]

MJ wasn't by far and away the best player in 1998? Are you kidding?
Not far and away.

[kennethgriffin]

Please. The 1997-98 Lakers are one of the most stacked teams ever. They underachieved. Shaq wasn't ready to win yet. Shaq, Kobe, Jones, Van Exel, Horry, Fox and Fish.

MJ was still by far and away the best player in the game in 1997-98. Individual dominance can't hold a candle to being the best player who can make his teammates better. Shaq wasn't ready to win yet.


common man..


karl malone got robbed for 1998 league MVP


Mailman = 27/10/4 on 53%fg's ( 62 wins )
Jordan = 28/5/3 on 46% ( 62 wins )




malones 3rd best player = Goeffery hornachark
Jordans 3rd best player = THE WORM DENNIS RODMAN 15 RPG DEFENSIVE LEGEND

[Duffy Pratt]

Havlicek, Clyde Drexler, and Jerry West were all pretty good in their last years.

Sam Jones, Dr. j and Calvin Murphy are three more.

[SsKSpurs21]

Chauncey Billups
RIP Hamilton

both were pretty good into their mid-30s

[StephHamann]

Jason Kidd was pretty important for the Mavs title in 2011.

[ShaqTwizzle]

Please. The 1997-98 Lakers are one of the most stacked teams ever.


In the minds of casual fans, sure.

In reality...
*Eddie Jones was an elite roleplayer or a 3&D guy who was also quite good on the break or in the open court.
*Van Exel was a flashy chucker, a terrible playoff performer and a guy who had a terrible attitude.
*Kobe was still a baby completely unprepared to play any significant role on a contender during a playoff run.

Shaq + elite roleplayer + flashy scrub + young scrub does not = stacked.


They underachieved.

And that is Shaq's fault?
Let us look at the Laker stats against Utah.

Shaq : 32 / 9 on 55%TS
Shaq [last 3 games] : 36 / 10 on 59%TS
-----------------------------------------------------------
Kobe : 10 / 1apg on 37% shooting
Van Exel : 9 / 4apg on 24% shooting <---- (that isn't a typo / he was that bad)
Jones : 15 / 3apg on 41% shooting


Shaq wasn't ready to win yet.

That is retarded.
Shaq made the Finals in his 3rd year.
He was more then ready to win he just had a shitty coach and a weak cast.


MJ was still by far and away the best player in the game in 1997-98.


No he wasn't.
Shaq was more productive, efficient and impactful.

Give him a well oiled team coached by Phil fukking Jackson and years to build chemistry and battle in the playoffs and I am sure he'd have had a good chance to win that year also.

Oh and Shaq's stats against a good Sonics team in the 2nd round.
Shaq : 31 / 10 / 4-apg / 4-bpg on 64%TS

Seattles coach (George Carl) basically called Shaq god after that series ended.
Just an absurdly dominant series. Jordan from the same year wasn't capable of stuff like that.

[feyki]

Only +35 players ;

Steve Nash
John Stockton

Sam Jones

Ray Allen

[DCL]

they were all usually pretty good shooters.

shooting ability is one of the last things to go away. when you get old, you can't run, can't jump, can't defend, but you can probably still shoot.

[senelcoolidge]

Oscar Robertson, without him the Bucks couldn't have won in 1971.

[ImKobe]

MJ in 1997-98.

MVP
FMVP
All- NBA 1st team
All-NBA 1st Defensive team
All-Star Game MVP
32.4 ppg in playoffs
28.1 PER in playoffs

Thanks for playing.

at that point he had about as much mileage as a 30-year-old Lebron/Kobe and he was playing off-ball with Pippen/Harper bringing up the ball and running the offense

[chocolatethunder]

Agreed with VC. We used to think AI was ageing like wine before the trade to Detroit...straight up killed his career :ohwell:
You don't think that drinking and not working out and not practicing had anything to do with it? Ok

[Dr Hawk]

at that point he had about as much mileage as a 30-year-old Lebron/Kobe and he was playing off-ball with Pippen/Harper bringing up the ball and running the offense

Something Lebron couldn't do

[CavaliersFTW]

Lenny Wilkens

[JT123]

In the minds of casual fans, sure.

In reality...
*Eddie Jones was an elite roleplayer or a 3&D guy who was also quite good on the break or in the open court.
*Van Exel was a flashy chucker, a terrible playoff performer and a guy who had a terrible attitude.
*Kobe was still a baby completely unprepared to play any significant role on a contender during a playoff run.

Shaq + elite roleplayer + flashy scrub + young scrub does not = stacked.



And that is Shaq's fault?
Let us look at the Laker stats against Utah.

Shaq : 32 / 9 on 55%TS
Shaq [last 3 games] : 36 / 10 on 59%TS
-----------------------------------------------------------
Kobe : 10 / 1apg on 37% shooting
Van Exel : 9 / 4apg on 24% shooting <---- (that isn't a typo / he was that bad)
Jones : 15 / 3apg on 41% shooting



That is retarded.
Shaq made the Finals in his 3rd year.
He was more then ready to win he just had a shitty coach and a weak cast.



No he wasn't.
Shaq was more productive, efficient and impactful.

Give him a well oiled team coached by Phil fukking Jackson and years to build chemistry and battle in the playoffs and I am sure he'd have had a good chance to win that year also.

Oh and Shaq's stats against a good Sonics team in the 2nd round.
Shaq : 31 / 10 / 4-apg / 4-bpg on 64%TS

Seattles coach (George Carl) basically called Shaq god after that series ended.
Just an absurdly dominant series. Jordan from the same year wasn't capable of stuff like that.
:bowdown: Jordan stans officially destroyed

[3ball]

Shaq was more productive, efficient and impactful.




It's the exact opposite - here's MJ's peak vs. Shaq's peak (91-93' vs. 00'-02')


REGULAR SEASON

MJ:... 31.4 ppg.. 58.2% ts.. 122 ORtg.. 0.288 WS/48.. 3 All-Defense 1st Team.. 2 MVP
Shaq: 28.6 ppg.. 58.0% ts.. 115 ORtg.. 0.264 WS/48.. 2 All-Defense 2nd Team.. 1 MVP


PLAYOFFS

MJ:... 33.7 ppg.. 57.2% ts.. 120 ORtg.. 0.267 WS/48
Shaq: 29.9 ppg.. 56.2% ts.. 113 ORtg.. 0.238 WS/48


FINALS

MJ:... 36.3 ppg.. 52.6% fg.. 84.3% ft.. played. #5, #3, #9 defenses.. beat Magic-Drexler-Barkley
Shaq: 35.9 ppg.. 59.5% fg.. 50.6% ft.. played #13, #5, #1 defenses.. beat Miller-Iverson-Kidd


(Rebounds/Assists cancel out... So do Steals/Blocks and FG/FT%)

[ClipperRevival]

In the minds of casual fans, sure.

In reality...
*Eddie Jones was an elite roleplayer or a 3&D guy who was also quite good on the break or in the open court.
*Van Exel was a flashy chucker, a terrible playoff performer and a guy who had a terrible attitude.
*Kobe was still a baby completely unprepared to play any significant role on a contender during a playoff run.

Shaq + elite roleplayer + flashy scrub + young scrub does not = stacked.



And that is Shaq's fault?
Let us look at the Laker stats against Utah.

Shaq : 32 / 9 on 55%TS
Shaq [last 3 games] : 36 / 10 on 59%TS
-----------------------------------------------------------
Kobe : 10 / 1apg on 37% shooting
Van Exel : 9 / 4apg on 24% shooting <---- (that isn't a typo / he was that bad)
Jones : 15 / 3apg on 41% shooting



That is retarded.
Shaq made the Finals in his 3rd year.
He was more then ready to win he just had a shitty coach and a weak cast.



No he wasn't.
Shaq was more productive, efficient and impactful.

Give him a well oiled team coached by Phil fukking Jackson and years to build chemistry and battle in the playoffs and I am sure he'd have had a good chance to win that year also.

Oh and Shaq's stats against a good Sonics team in the 2nd round.
Shaq : 31 / 10 / 4-apg / 4-bpg on 64%TS

Seattles coach (George Carl) basically called Shaq god after that series ended.
Just an absurdly dominant series. Jordan from the same year wasn't capable of stuff like that.

Please man. Lakers were considered legit title contenders by 1997-98, they just underachieved, partly due to inexperience. Still doesn't change the fact that on paper, they had about as much talent as anyone that year. They won 61 games. Jones and Van Exel were experienced enough. Kobe was in his 2nd year. And you had Horry, Fox and Fish.

Shaq might've put up numbers on par with MJ in the regular season, but it's the playoffs when MJ separated himself. MJ won pretty much every individual award that year outside of DPOY.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan at age 39 was averaging 25/6/5/43% FG through the first half of the season (one of only two players doing so) in a tougher defensive league than today, and improved his team by 17 wins (was on pace for a 23-26 game improvement before MJ got hurt and sat out a month). Had them in the 6th spot in the EC before his injury - a team that had won just 19 games the year prior.

Jordan after turning age 40 in 2003 averaged 23/7/4/46% FG over the final 30 games of the season. Those are prime JRich/RJeff/JJ numbers...at age 40. Again, in a tougher defensive league than today.

Jordan was actually amazing with the Wizards - haters just don't take context into account.

[90sgoat]

Jordan at age 39 was averaging 25/6/5/43% FG through the first half of the season (one of only two players doing so) in a tougher defensive league than today, and improved his team by 17 wins (was on pace for a 23-26 game improvement before MJ got hurt and sat out a month). Had them in the 6th spot in the EC before his injury - a team that had won just 19 games the year prior.

Jordan after turning age 40 in 2003 averaged 23/7/4/46% FG over the final 30 games of the season. Those are prime JRich/RJeff/JJ numbers...at age 40. Again, in a tougher defensive league than today.

Jordan was actually amazing with the Wizards - haters just don't take context into account.

:cheers:

[Duffy Pratt]

Oscar Robertson, without him the Bucks couldn't have won in 1971.

Oscar was 30-31 years old that season. His fall-off the next three years was pretty sharp.

[GrapeApe]

Jordan at age 39 was averaging 25/6/5/43% FG through the first half of the season (one of only two players doing so) in a tougher defensive league than today, and improved his team by 17 wins (was on pace for a 23-26 game improvement before MJ got hurt and sat out a month). Had them in the 6th spot in the EC before his injury - a team that had won just 19 games the year prior.

Jordan after turning age 40 in 2003 averaged 23/7/4/46% FG over the final 30 games of the season. Those are prime JRich/RJeff/JJ numbers...at age 40. Again, in a tougher defensive league than today.

Jordan was actually amazing with the Wizards - haters just don't take context into account.

I tend to think of Jordan's Wizards years as more of a retirement tour than actually part of his career, but if surrounded by a decent supporting cast he was still good enough to be a first option on a championship contender. That's remarkable for ANY 39-40 year old player, much less a guard.

[FreezingTsmoove]

Jason Kidd with the Knicks

After he left the Knicks fell apart

[3ball]

Let's not forget what 33-year old MJ did to the Bulls ORtg... He took it from 10th in the league to 1st all time.

[3ball]

I tend to think of Jordan's Wizards years as more of a retirement tour than actually part of his career, but if surrounded by a decent supporting cast he was still good enough to be a first option on a championship contender. That's remarkable for ANY 39-40 year old player, much less a guard.
Very true

[3ball]

Jordan at age 39 was averaging 25/6/5/43% FG through the first half of the season (one of only two players doing so) in a tougher defensive league than today, and improved his team by 17 wins (was on pace for a 23-26 game improvement before MJ got hurt and sat out a month). Had them in the 6th spot in the EC before his injury - a team that had won just 19 games the year prior.

Jordan after turning age 40 in 2003 averaged 23/7/4/46% FG over the final 30 games of the season. Those are prime JRich/RJeff/JJ numbers...at age 40. Again, in a tougher defensive league than today.

Jordan was actually amazing with the Wizards - haters just don't take context into account.


Also, the Bulls offensive rating was 106.1 and 109.5 in 1994 and 1995 - this was good for 14th and 10th in the league..

But when 33-year old MJ came back for full season in 1996, the Bulls ORtg skyrocketed to 115.2, which is #1 ALL TIME, even though they were playing 4 on 5 offensively (rodman).

That's the goat impact, let alone for a 33-year old wing... 14th in the league, to #1 all time.... due to MJ.

[ShaqTwizzle]

Lakers were considered legit title contenders by 1997-98, they just underachieved, partly due to inexperience.


#1.
Just because they were "considered" legit contenders doesn't mean they actually were.

#2.
You say they underachieved but they made the WCF which isn't exactly terrible.
Maybe they could have gone farther but the blame for that falls on the shoulders of Van Exel, Jones and to a lesser extent Kobe who all played like trash in the WCF.


Still doesn't change the fact that on paper, they had about as much talent as anyone that year.

Based on what exactly?

Eddie Jones was an elite roleplayer.
Even in 98 he only averaged 16.9 / 3.0-apg.
Not exactly All-Star type production.

Van Exel was a flashy inconsistent chucker and a playoff choker.
He averaged 11.8 / 6.8-apg in the playoffs the year before Shaq joined him.
He averaged 13.8 / 6.9-apg in 98.
He completely collapsed against Utah (9-ppg / 4-apg on 24%).
He was very flashy and fun to watch and yeah he had talent but he wasn't in all honesty a great player. He was not a winner.


Jones and Van Exel were experienced enough.

Jones was a roleplayer and Van Exel was a flashy chucker.
Experienced or not (a questionable assertion) these are not the type of players who can be #2 or #3's on contenders.
They just weren't that caliber of player.


Shaq might've put up numbers on par with MJ in the regular season, but it's the playoffs when MJ separated himself.

No, he didn't.

Playoff stats
----------
Shaq : 30.5 / 10.2 / 3.0-apg / 2.6-bpg on .604%TS (31.0 PER)
MJ : 32.4 / 5.1 / 3.5-apg / 1.6-spg on .545%TS (28.1 PER)

Shaq put up better numbers and performed better against Utah.
He also had by far the most impressive playoff series between the two which came against Seattle.

MJ had a better coach, a better, more experienced and battle hardened cast and he had years to build chemistry with said cast and master the system Phil employed (triangle).

He was still amazing that year but I think Shaq individually was the better player.
We can agree to disagree though.

[3ball]

He was still amazing that year but I think Shaq individually was the better player.


Pippen 1996-1998 playoffs: 17/7/5 on 40.8%
Bryant 2000-2002 playoffs: 25/6/5 on 44.7%

Shaq couldn't have 3-peated with Pippen's numbers... He needed far superior production from his 2nd option because his game doesn't foster optimal chemistry - that's why he was easily swept in 1998 by the Jazz, despite having the most talented team in the league... Ditto in 1995 Finals and 2004 Finals, when he had the most talented teams in the league.

Otoh, MJ's game fostered optimal chemistry, so he NEVER lost to a team with less talent - MJ's facilitation of optimal chemistry is proven by how much better the Bulls' offense became when he re-joined the team:

The Bulls offensive rating was 106.1 and 109.5 in 1994 and 1995 - this was good for 14th and 10th in the league.. But when 33-year old MJ came back for full season in 1996, the Bulls ORtg skyrocketed to 115.2, which is #1 ALL TIME, even though they were playing 4 on 5 offensively (rodman).. That's the goat impact, let alone for a 33-year old wing... 14th in the league, to #1 all time.... due to MJ.

This proves MJ's off-ball, low time of possession, quick-decision game fostered the best chemistry more than any player ever.. Obviously way more than the underachieving Shaq.. Can you imagine what MJ would do with the talent Shaq enjoyed throughout his career?.. My goodness.
.

[aj1987]

Pippen 1996-1998 playoffs: 17/7/5 on 40.8%
Bryant 2000-2002 playoffs: 25/6/5 on 44.7%

Shaq couldn't have 3-peated with Pippen's numbers... He needed far superior production from his 2nd option because his game doesn't foster optimal chemistry - that's why he was easily swept in 1998 by the Jazz, despite having the most talented team in the league... Ditto in 1995 Finals and 2004 Finals, when he had the most talented teams in the league.

Otoh, MJ's game fostered optimal chemistry, so he NEVER lost to a team with less talent - MJ's facilitation of optimal chemistry is proven by how much better the Bulls' offense became when he re-joined the team:

The Bulls offensive rating was 106.1 and 109.5 in 1994 and 1995 - this was good for 14th and 10th in the league..But when 33-year old MJ came back for full season in 1996, the Bulls ORtg skyrocketed to 115.2, which is #1 ALL TIME, even though they were playing 4 on 5 offensively (rodman).. That's the goat impact, let alone for a 33-year old wing... 14th in the league, to #1 all time.... due to MJ.

This proves MJ's off-ball, low time of possession, quick-decision game fostered the best chemistry more than any player ever.. Obviously way more than the underachieving Shaq.. Can you imagine what MJ would do with the talent Shaq enjoyed throughout his career?.. My goodness.
.
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[3ball]

Pippen 1996-1998 playoffs: 17/7/5 on 40.8%
Bryant 2000-2002 playoffs: 25/6/5 on 44.7%

Shaq couldn't have 3-peated with Pippen's numbers... He needed far superior production from his 2nd option because his game doesn't foster optimal chemistry - that's why he was easily swept in 1998 by the Jazz, despite having the most talented team in the league... Ditto in 1995 Finals and 2004 Finals, when he had the most talented teams in the league.

Otoh, MJ's game fostered optimal chemistry, so he NEVER lost to a team with less talent - MJ's facilitation of optimal chemistry is proven by how much better the Bulls' offense became when he re-joined the team:

The Bulls offensive rating was 106.1 and 109.5 in 1994 and 1995 - this was good for 14th and 10th in the league..But when 33-year old MJ came back for full season in 1996, the Bulls ORtg skyrocketed to 115.2, which is #1 ALL TIME, even though they were playing 4 on 5 offensively (rodman).. That's the goat impact, let alone for a 33-year old wing... 14th in the league, to #1 all time.... due to MJ.

This proves MJ's off-ball, low time of possession, quick-decision game fostered the best chemistry more than any player ever.. Obviously way more than the underachieving Shaq.. Can you imagine what MJ would do with the talent Shaq enjoyed throughout his career?.. My goodness.


:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm


Show me one thing that's inaccurate in the post

[derb2k2]

Ray allen for sure, I'm not sure if you can get any higher impact than this...
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/6/19/1371620325062/61ad7030-183c-4fee-9ef7-819bee444c0e-460x276.jpeg
As for other guards who had a pretty big impact despite being old, I feel inclined to say MJ even though he didn't even make the playoffs, but averaging 20 ppg at 40 years of age is pretty spectacular.
Reggie Miller was still doing pretty good, putting up 15/2/2 while being 40 and helping his team get to the Semifinals the year he retired.


this is an amazing photo! Thanks:bowdown:

[aj1987]

Show me one thing that's inaccurate in the post
Refer to ShaqTwizzle's post, you ****ing idiot..

Also, why are you bringing up random shit? We're talking about the '98 season.