Karl Malone: The Ultimate Power Forward

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PART 1 - LOW POST
[QUOTE]This is Part 1 of

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PART 3 - DEFENSE

[QUOTE]This is Part 3 of

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PART 5 - PASSING

[QUOTE]This is Part 5 of

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PART 6 - PICK AND ROLL


This is Part 6 of “The Ultimate Power Forward” series, detailing several of the key components that made Karl Malone the greatest power forward to ever play the game.

For all of the diverse offensive skills (which have been covered extensively here over the past week) Karl Malone possessed that helped make him the second-leading scorer in NBA history, perhaps no play became as synonymous to the Mailman scoring than the pick-and-roll.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XLvqH9qoik

Of course, it’s impossible to talk about Karl Malone running screen-roll without mentioning his Hall-of-Fame pick&roll partner: John Stockton. Together, Stockton&Malone put on nearly a two decade-long clinic of how to run the pick&roll. Any type of defense they faced within the rules, they would counter and execute. It starts with Stockton, who had supreme court vision, the ability to pass accurately and quickly (thanks to his ability to pass off the dribble with one hand rather than two) and was an excellent shooter off the bounce. Malone always set a rock solid screen and combined his mobility, great hands and supreme ability to finish with both power and skill around the basket – was the ultimate finisher. Together, Stockton&Malone were simply unstoppable on the pick&roll.

https://jazzbasketball.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/stockton-malone-side-screenroll-1a.png
In traditional side-screen roll, Stockton’s first read is always to go middle behind Malone’s screen – whose own read was to roll to the basket if the weakside help doesn’t come, or “pop” out on the baseline for the jumper if the help-defense rotates to shut off the paint.

https://jazzbasketball.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/stockton-malone-side-screenroll-1b.png
Here Malone’s man shows out on Stockton and the weakside help is slow. Malone rolls unimpeded to the rim and skillfully finishes over Kobe who is late in his rotation.

https://jazzbasketball.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/stockton-malone-side-screenroll-2a.png
On this play, the Chicago Bulls force the pick&roll baseline (a defensive staple of Phil Jackson coached teams). Utah counters with Malone simply re-screening to allow Stockton to drive baseline. This forces Malone’s man to help on Stockton and allows Karl to turn and roll uncontested to the rim.

https://jazzbasketball.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/stockton-malone-side-screenroll-2b.png
Chicago’s weakside help defense is slow to react and Malone has a wide-open lane to drive for the hammer dunk.

https://jazzbasketball.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/stockton-malone-side-screenroll-2c.png
Here in the same situation, Chicago’s help-defense reacts to clog the lane. As a result, instead of rolling – Malone simply pulls up from the elbow and drains the open 18-footer.

https://jazzbasketball.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/stockton-malone-side-screenroll-3a.png
Here against Houston, Stockton’s man decides to go under on the screen so Stockton knows he’ll have a clean look from the foul line area if the big doesn’t show out.

https://jazzbasketball.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/stockton-malone-side-screenroll-3b.png
The Rockets choose to stay with the screener (Malone), so Stockton simply pulls up and hits the open foul-line jumper.

https://jazzbasketball.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/stockton-malone-side-screenroll-4a.png
After playing together for 10+ seasons, Stockton&Malone developed a sixth sense for knowing when to slip the screen. Here, they again show their standard side screen-roll.

https://jazzbasketball.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/stockton-malone-side-screenroll-4b.png
Instead of setting the screen, Malone slips right to the rim. Because Stockton could pass so well off-the-bounce, his trademark one-hand pass right by his defender’s ear leads Malone perfectly and the Mailman makes an excellent one-handed catch on the move and promptly finishes strong at the rim for a three-point play.

As Doug Collins said, “Whatever you show them, they counter it.” In the 90’s most offenses in the NBA were based more on isolation and post-ups than predominantly screen-roll. Now in 2013, with rule changes virtually every successful team relies on running the pick&roll to some degree of success. Guards are taught the nuances of the play at much earlier ages, and come into the league more skilled in that area. Nevertheless, the pick&roll bar set by Stockton&Malone has yet to be eclipsed. They did it longer, better, and more proficiently than any other duo in NBA history. Everyone knew it was coming, and they still couldn’t stop it.

https://jazzbasketball.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/stockton-and-malone-pickandroll-1.png

[Asukal]

Did you just get Karl Malowned? :confusedshrug:

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The best PF to ever do it.

[lucky001]

The best PF to ever do it with a minor

Fixed

[AnaheimLakers24]

Even though he has no rings, hes still better than the entire kings franchis. OUCH

[Prime_Shaq]

Duncan >

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Duncan >
Duncan is a center

[QUOTE]Even Spurs coach Gregg Popovich seemed to acknowledge the charade on the eve of last year

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Malone is the best pure Power Forward, and the best Forward of the 1980-2000 era, hands down.

[lil jahlil]

I think the OP just found out how to copy and paste.

[rmt]

Duncan's oh-so-valuable skill - protecting the rim is glossed over in this article - as is Malone's 4 all-nba defensive honors compared to Duncan's 15. On the defensive end of the court, it is not a contest and in longevity (where Malone has an edge on almost everyone) - well, Duncan's pretty much caught up with that. All that without the ring argument and no, MJ was in the East (no excuse for not reaching more Finals).

I've often wondered what it would be like if Duncan played with a passer such as Stockton instead of that (especially recently) ball-hog, Parker. Spurs were patterned/modeled after the Utah Jazz, who represent all that is good in basketball - grit, team work and effort. Both Malone's and Stockton's longevity and physical conditioning are unparalleled.

[jstern]

Can you post his stats for games where Stockton didn't play? But don't put them all together, instead post them individually, one by one in new posts.

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1989-1990 Season (Stockton misses 4 games)

November 22, 1989 Magic v Jazz

Magic (W) 119 Jazz 97

Malone:
33 points
9 rebounds
4 assists
4 steals
1 block
3 turnovers
11-18 FG
11-13 FT
40 Minutes


November 25, 1989 Lakers v Jazz

Lakers (W) 92 Jazz 86

Malone:
31 points
8 rebounds
4 assists
3 turnovers
11-18 FG
8-10 FT
42 Minutes


February 7, 1990 Nets vs Jazz

Jazz (W) 108 Nets 101

Malone:
26 points
4 rebounds
2 assists
1 steal
1 block
4 turnovers
10-18 FG
6-9 FT
40 Minutes


February 8, 1990 Hornets v Jazz

Jazz (W) 94 Hornets 74

Malone:
15 points
14 rebounds
5 assists
1 steal
3 turnovers
6-18 FG
3-6 FT
36 Minutes

[catch24]

You remind me of Plowking. :coleman:

Are you him, and is he you?

[jstern]

1989-1990 Season (Stockton misses 4 games)

November 22, 1989 Magic v Jazz

Magic (W) 119 Jazz 97

Malone:
33 points
9 rebounds
4 assists
4 steals
1 block
3 turnovers
11-18 FG
11-13 FT
40 Minutes


November 25, 1989 Lakers v Jazz

Lakers (W) 92 Jazz 86

Malone:
31 points
8 rebounds
4 assists
3 turnovers
11-18 FG
8-10 FT
42 Minutes


February 7, 1990 Nets vs Jazz

Jazz (W) 108 Nets 101

Malone:
26 points
4 rebounds
2 assists
1 steal
1 block
4 turnovers
10-18 FG
6-9 FT
40 Minutes


February 8, 1990 Hornets v Jazz

Jazz (W) 94 Hornets 74

Malone:
15 points
14 rebounds
5 assists
1 steal
3 turnovers
6-18 FG
3-6 FT
36 Minutes
Thank you, but each game should have been its own individual post.

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1997-1998 Season (Stockton misses 18 games)

October 31, 1997 Lakers v Jazz

Lakers (W) 104 Utah 87

Malone:
20 points
14 rebounds
4 assists
1 steal
3 turnovers
7-14 FG
6-9 FT
37 Minutes

November 1, 1997 Suns v Jazz

Jazz (W) 102 Suns 84

Malone:
24 points
6 rebounds
2 assists
6 turnovers
8-10 FG
8-10 FT
28 Minutes

November 3, 1997 Bullets v Jazz

Bullets (W) 90 Jazz 86

Malone:
21 points
16 rebounds
1 assist
2 steals
1 block
5 turnovers
8-18 FG
5-11 FT
36 Minutes

November 4, 1997 Suns v Jazz

Suns (W) 106 Jazz 84

Malone:
22 points
11 rebounds
3 assists
3 turnovers
7-17 FG
8-10 FT
34 Minutes

November 7, 1997 Nuggets v Jazz

Jazz (W) 91 Nuggets 89

Malone:
20 points
11 rebounds
3 assists
2 steals
3 blocks
2 turnovers
7-13 FG
6-9 FT
40 Minutes

November 8, 1997 Spurs v Jazz

Spurs (W) 87 Jazz 80

Malone:
26 points
7 rebounds
1 assist
1 block
7 turnovers
7-15 FG
12-15 FT
36 Minutes

November 12, 1997 Grizzlies v Jazz

Jazz (W) 98 Grizzlies 80

Malone:
26 points
7 rebounds
5 assists
2 steals
1 block
2 turnovers
9-17 FG
8-8 FT
31 Minutes

November 14, 1997 Supersonics v Jazz

Jazz (W) 110 Supersonics 104

Malone:
23 points
12 rebounds
3 assists
1 steal
1 turnover
7-12 FG
9-12 FT
39 Minutes

November 15, 1997 Mavericks v Jazz

Jazz (W) 85 Mavericks 77

Malone:
26 points
10 rebounds
3 assists
2 steals
6 turnovers
12-20 FG
2-2 FT
37 Minutes

November 18, 1997 Lakers v Jazz

Lakers (W) 97 Jazz 92

Malone:
26 points
9 rebounds
6 assists
1 steal
1 block
3 turnovers
10-22 FG
6-8 FT
40 Minutes

November 20, 1997 Kings v Jazz

Kings (W) 97 Jazz 95

Malone:
32 points
9 rebounds
4 assists
2 steals
4 turnovers
13-26 FG
6-10 FT
45 Minutes

November 22, 1997 Spurs v Jazz

Jazz (W) 103 Spurs 74

Malone:
20 points
11 rebounds
7 assists
1 steal
1 block
4 turnovers
7-12 FG
6-8 FT
31 Minutes

November 24, 1997 Timberwolves v Jazz

Jazz (W) 133 Timberwolves 124

Malone:
33 points
9 rebounds
7 assists
1 block
1 turnover
10-17 FG
13-16 FT
43 Minutes

November 28, 1997 Warriors v Jazz

Jazz (W) 111 Warriors 82

Malone:
21 points
8 rebounds
4 assists
2 steals
2 blocks
3 turnovers
6-10 FG
9-12 FT
26 Minutes

November 29, 1997 Clippers v Jazz

Jazz (W) 94 Clippers 91

Malone:
42 points
18 rebounds
2 steals
2 blocks
5 turnovers
17-29 FG
8-10 FT
41 Minutes

December 1, 1997 Nets v Jazz

Jazz (W) 100 Nets 95

Malone:
19 points
14 rebounds
4 assists
1 steal
1 block
4 turnovers
6-19 FG
7-10 FT
41 Minutes

December 3, 1997 Raptors v Jazz

Jazz (W) 115 Raptors 98

Malone:
23 points
15 rebounds
4 assists
1 steal
2 blocks
5 turnovers
11-19 FG
1-5 FT
35 Minutes

December 5, 1997 Trailblazers v Jazz

Trailblazers (W) 94 Jazz 77

Malone:
24 points
12 rebounds
3 assists
1 turnover
9-18 FG
6-9 FT
39 Minutes

[lil jahlil]

^ How sad is your life?

[Gileraracer]

Best PF, too sad MJ was there to prevent him from getting any rings

[JtotheIzzo]

"Most overrated player ever."
-Bob Ryan, Boston Globe

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"Most overrated player ever."
-Bob Ryan, Boston Globe
Dude's just protecting his Celtic boys

If anything Malone is underrated

[JtotheIzzo]

Dude's just protecting his Celtic boys

If anything Malone is underrated

his word is pretty much bond, couldn't risk his sterling rep saying anything nonsensical.

sorry fella, you are just too young to understand and too blinded by the stats, Malone never really scared anyone, just a compiler, basically the Rafael Palmeiro of basketball.

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People just don't like Malone

That's the real reason

From the Magic HIV comments to impregnating a 13 year old, to hitting on Kobe's wife, to throwing elbows...

People just don't like him. But you can't deny the 19 years of shear excellence. Even in his last hurrah, he was the most integral piece that ran the Laker offense, when he went down, so did the team.

[JtotheIzzo]

People just don't like Malone

That's the real reason

From the Magic HIV comments to impregnating a 13 year old, to hitting on Kobe's wife, to throwing elbows...

People just don't like him. But you can't deny the 19 years of shear excellence. Even in his last hurrah, he was the most integral piece that ran the Laker offense, when he went down, so did the team.

he impregnated a 13 y.o?

Shit, he really was a redneck.

The reality is Malone was a big strong fella, who worked hard and got stuck in giving team's great production, but he just wasn't a star. Couldn't create for himself and couldn't carry a team.

GOAT semi-star, just not at the super-star level other players of his era were at.

The stats mislead people.

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he impregnated a 13 y.o?

Shit, he really was a redneck.

The reality is Malone was a big strong fella, who worked hard and got stuck in giving team's great production, but he just wasn't a star. Couldn't create for himself and couldn't carry a team.

GOAT semi-star, just not at the super-star level other players of his era were at.

The stats mislead people.
By 97-98 NBA finals, Malone was widely considered the greatest power forward of all time. Hard to not be a star when you're a GOAT at your position.

[GimmeThat]

there's Antonio Gates, then there's Tony Gonzalez

which is similar to the comparison of Calvin Johnson and maybe someone like Eric Decker

I suppose it may come down to how much one values yard gains after the reception.


"the guy couldn't create plays, and carry a team"


if you can't understand this post, I suppose that makes you normal.
because I'll admit, it's out of the norm.

[lil jahlil]

People just don't like Malone

That's the real reason

From the Magic HIV comments to impregnating a 13 year old, to hitting on Kobe's wife, to throwing elbows...

People just don't like him. But you can't deny the 19 years of shear excellence. Even in his last hurrah, he was the most integral piece that ran the Laker offense, when he went down, so did the team.

The bold actually makes him likeable.

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Just looked at the Barkley v Malone Head2head

It's very close from 85-95... Barkley had stretches of winning the matchups, and so did Malone. It went like this roughly... Barkley wins 85-87, Malone wins 88-90, pretty even up until 93 when Barkley has a good stretch, then Malone back on top by 94 and dominates the rest from there.

Round Mound spreading the bullshit about Barkley dominating Malone from 85-95... It's actually pretty much a wash

[Beastmode88]

Dirty player that deserved to be ringless.

[andgar923]

I always wanted Blake Griffin to study Malone's game as opposed to Hakeem's. Blake would be DEADLY if he played like Malone and had his attitude instead of trying to be a poor man's Shawn Kemp.

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The league needs to tweak some rules to favor back to the basket bigmen again.

I reckon they should bring back the low post illegal defense rule, where you couldn't double the post player before he got the ball, and you couldn't zone off and front him with another player to deny post possession. Just a small tweak to strong side post defense that would encourage dominant post bigs to return. Nothing major, just a small tweak, so we can get the best of both worlds with perimeter play, shooting, and inside big post work.

[andgar923]

The league needs to tweak some rules to favor back to the basket bigmen again.

I reckon they should bring back the low post illegal defense rule, where you couldn't double the post player before he got the ball, and you couldn't zone off and front him with another player to deny post possession. Just a small tweak to strong side post defense that would encourage dominant post bigs to return. Nothing major, just a small tweak, so we can get the best of both worlds with perimeter play, shooting, and inside big post work.
So much wrong in this post.

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So much wrong in this post.
There are post possessions and opportunities no matter what era or rule schemes, but it is abundantly clear that in the modern game, building an offense around the low block is not a viable/efficient option like it used to be. In fact, Mike D'Antoni made a presentation about this exact point not too long ago. I will look for the link.

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Brad Stevens, the Celtics coach, theorizes that teams have gotten better at working together on a string to defend post-ups as pick-and-roll defense has forced them to move around in more complex ways.


Post-ups take time to set up, and they lead to tough 2-point shots in traffic. Referees let point guards flit around unfettered, but the paint remains a war zone where brutality can trump skill. Legalized zone frees help defenders to sandwich dangerous post-up threats. “The reason the post-up doesn’t work anymore is that teams just front now,” Karl says. Help defenders can drift from their assignments to prevent a lob pass over that front, forcing the defense to whip the ball elsewhere

Also analytics and such (Mainly due to rule changes affecting game style optimizations)

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More


Fifteen years ago, Charles Barkley could back his man down and know the defense really had only two options: leave him in single coverage or send a hard double-team.

When the league scrapped the old illegal-defense rules, it freed coaches to get funky. Players can hover in open spaces; pretend they are going to help; swipe at the ball, and then recover back out to shooters; and emerge unannounced from almost anywhere.

Post-up scorers have to see two and three rotations ahead to create the most productive shots. If they go into a scoring move, they have to keep their head up, ready to improvise a pass if the defense sends help from an unexpected place. Post scorers who can’t think on their feet don’t present the same threat level they once did.

[andgar923]

There are post possessions and opportunities no matter what era or rule schemes, but it is abundantly clear that in the modern game, building an offense around the low block is not a viable/efficient option like it used to be. In fact, Mike D'Antoni made a presentation about this exact point not too long ago. I will look for the link.
Just last season people were stating how the post player was back.

I also remember Kobe getting many touches in the post.

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Just last season people were stating how the post player was back.

I also remember Kobe getting many touches in the post.
Mainly because defenses were switching on Pick and Rolls to counter the perimeter shooting... This creates a mismatch opportunity for effective and efficient post play, but is by no means the efficient means of scoring it once was in the 80's and 90's. Read my upper posts.

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bump

[90sgoat]

Karl Malone is tied with Barkley for greatest power forward ever and I wouldn't really say Barkley is a typical pf more than Bird is a sf or Magic a pg, these are players who defy position.

Malone is the prototypical power forward. If you could imagine an ideal power forward it would be Karl Malone. There is not a single player in the game with his skills today in combination with size and speed.

Had MJ not returned from retirement then Karl Malone would be considered top 10 all time. I often say Lebron is nothing more than Karl Malone, which is a compliment to Lebron. People saying Garnett is goat PF over Malone, that is absurd, he isn't anywhere close to Malone. Great player yes, but Malone was a much superior offensive player and Garnett's defense is overrated - check the advanced stats. Duncan is a center.

Does people really doubt Karl Malone would not be the best player in the league today?

Anyway, it's true that making the entry post pass is more difficult today. Penetration is much, much easier now than when Malone played. No doubt Malone would still be effective, but mostly so in the playoffs when pace slows down. In the last couple years we've seen David West, Gasol, Duncan work the post with great success. You just mainly have to set up the entry pass to the post in a different way than in the past.

Personally I can't help but think the NBA today is much worse off when you don't have power forwards like Malone.

[20Four]

https://jazzbasketball.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/karl-malone-the-ultimate-power-forward.png


PART 1 - LOW POST



PART 2 - FACE UP GAME / PERIMETER SHOOTING
What are you doing home on a friday night? WTF you are up all night looking at Karl Malone highlights? Are you a fvcking kid? You no life stupid son of a bitch

[chips93]

nice post

as someone who started following the nba more recently, all i hear about malone was how he put up empty stats, was overrated, didnt who up in crunch time, etc. but it was cool to see some of the intricacies of his game, regardless of his all time ranking.

[feyki]

Good thread.

He's not better than Elgin or Pettit for me. But he's in top 25 goat.

[KNOW1EDGE]

Easily the most overrated big man of all time.

[GIF REACTION]

Easily the most underrated big man of all time.

[Kblaze8855]

When an integral part of a case being made for someone being the greatest at something is removing someone greater from contention and not explaining why they are actually better I don't find it to be very strong case.

Duncan is the greatest power forward and attempting to remove him from consideration instead of discussing it makes it obvious Karl does not compare.

As a basketball player he's no Duncan or Kevin Garnett. Far as accomplishments he's no Duncan or Bob Pettit.

And if we are going to start shifting people around we could easily move Baylor in call him a power forward and he's likely ahead of Malone as well.

calling him the most underrated when there are people at his position who accomplished more and are complete unknowns is clearly ridiculous. Bob Pettit went to something like three finals and won a couple MVPs and a ring by dropping 50 points in Game seven. Nobody knows who the **** that is. I grant you the ring he won was when Russell broke his ankle in the finals but Karl had his chance in a league with no Michael magic or bird and ended up losing in the first round with a 60 something win team if I remember correctly.

That said... and despite my disagreement with the conclusion presented...

It's certainly a real basketball topic and a worthwhile discussion so ill give everyone a solemn nod and ill show myself out...

[GIF REACTION]

Does not compare? The man took MVPs off Michael freaking Jordan. I find it funny how people try to put Karl down because he played within a team concept.... Something that is thought to be a positive today...

[rmt]

Karl Malone is tied with Barkley for greatest power forward ever and I wouldn't really say Barkley is a typical pf more than Bird is a sf or Magic a pg, these are players who defy position.

Malone is the prototypical power forward. If you could imagine an ideal power forward it would be Karl Malone. There is not a single player in the game with his skills today in combination with size and speed.

Had MJ not returned from retirement then Karl Malone would be considered top 10 all time. I often say Lebron is nothing more than Karl Malone, which is a compliment to Lebron. People saying Garnett is goat PF over Malone, that is absurd, he isn't anywhere close to Malone. Great player yes, but Malone was a much superior offensive player and Garnett's defense is overrated - check the advanced stats. Duncan is a center.

Does people really doubt Karl Malone would not be the best player in the league today?

Anyway, it's true that making the entry post pass is more difficult today. Penetration is much, much easier now than when Malone played. No doubt Malone would still be effective, but mostly so in the playoffs when pace slows down. In the last couple years we've seen David West, Gasol, Duncan work the post with great success. You just mainly have to set up the entry pass to the post in a different way than in the past.

Personally I can't help but think the NBA today is much worse off when you don't have power forwards like Malone.

As Duncan has aged and slowed down, yes, he plays mostly center now but his prime was spent at PF beside DRob, Rasho, Nazr, Oberto, Elson, Kurt Thomas, Rose, and later Blair, Baynes, and Splitter. Usually, the position that one plays in his prime is what he is judged by - not what he plays when he's old.

Duncan's ability to play both C and PF gives the Spurs great flexibility. The traditional great big men like KAJ, Wilt, Shaq probably would not play beside the players listed above - the spacing would be all off.

[GIF REACTION]

39-40 year old Malone was holding his own against peak Duncan and Garnett

[dubeta]

Malone or Cousins?

[34-24 Footwork]

Duncan gets CRAZY overrated. And to be honest, it has a lot to do with his personality (and arguably his sexuality)

No way he's better than Garnett or Hakeem. Not sure why Duncan gets held to different standards of production than other great big men.

[34-24 Footwork]

If the league let DMC get away with the stuff that Shaq got away with, then DMC would be the most dominant big man post Shaq era...and he hits his free throws.

Depends on what your definition of "better". Malone scored effortlessly.

[lil jahlil]

Duncan gets CRAZY overrated. And to be honest, it has a lot to do with his personality (and arguably his sexuality)

No way he's better than Garnett or Hakeem. Not sure why Duncan gets held to different standards of production than other great big men.

:facepalm Nobody has ever indicated that they are a fan of him because of his sexuality.

[Lakers Legend#32]

Karl Malone is the ultimate redneck.

[stalkerforlife]

I don't like Malone...but the dude is underrated.

Top 15 GOAT, IMO.

[Rocketswin2013]

Duncan gets CRAZY overrated. And to be honest, it has a lot to do with his personality (and arguably his sexuality)

No way he's better than Garnett or Hakeem. Not sure why Duncan gets held to different standards of production than other great big men.
:oldlol:

[JtotheIzzo]

Malone's longevity is his greatest asset. He took care of himself and he deserves credit for that, but lets be real, he never scared any fellow top 50 guys at any time in the playoffs ever.

He was a compiler and there was never a better time to compile than the Western Conference during his era.

Great career, but would likely be last choice if you had a must win game and could only take 1 top 50 guy.

[stalkerforlife]

Malone's longevity is his greatest asset. He took care of himself and he deserves credit for that, but lets be real, he never scared any fellow top 50 guys at any time in the playoffs ever.

He was a compiler and there was never a better time to compile than the Western Conference during his era.

Great career, but would likely be last choice if you had a must win game and could only take 1 top 50 guy.

:biggums:

[feyki]

Duncan gets CRAZY overrated. And to be honest, it has a lot to do with his personality (and arguably his sexuality)

No way he's better than Garnett or Hakeem. Not sure why Duncan gets held to different standards of production than other great big men.

:facepalm :facepalm

[Stringer Bell]

Duncan and Garnett are greater/better PFs= power forward.

Malone is a better PF= Pedophile Forward or Payment-less Father (this guy refused to pay $100 weekly child support payments out of his 7 figure salary)

[Stringer Bell]

Duncan gets CRAZY overrated. And to be honest, it has a lot to do with his personality (and arguably his sexuality)


:roll:

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

The ultimate spoonfed Power Forward

KG, Dirk, Timmy >>>>>>

[Im Still Ballin]

And none of them have come close to matching his longevity

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

And none of them have come close to matching his longevity

He doesnt blow any of them away when it comes to longevity. He might have an edge but its not big

Dirk is still an allstar caliber player and has been since 2001 (16 years)

KG was an allstar and DPOY candidate iin 97 and was allstar caliber in 2013 as well (17 years)

Timmy was one of the best players in his rookie year in 98 and was allstar caliber in 2013 as well (16 years)

They all peaked much higher than Karl too

Karl aint even sniffin 11 Dirk, 04 KG or 03 Duncan

[Im Still Ballin]

He doesnt blow any of them away when it comes to longevity. He might have an edge but its not big

Dirk is still an allstar caliber player and has been since 2001 (16 years)

KG was an allstar and DPOY candidate iin 97 and was allstar caliber in 2013 as well (17 years)

Timmy was one of the best players in his rookie year in 98 and was allstar caliber in 2013 as well (16 years)

They all peaked much higher than Karl too

Karl aint even sniffin 11 Dirk, 04 KG or 03 Duncan
This man took MVPs off Michael Jordan

He was putting up 40 point games at 39

[ClipperRevival]

He doesnt blow any of them away when it comes to longevity. He might have an edge but its not big

Dirk is still an allstar caliber player and has been since 2001 (16 years)

KG was an allstar and DPOY candidate iin 97 and was allstar caliber in 2013 as well (17 years)

Timmy was one of the best players in his rookie year in 98 and was allstar caliber in 2013 as well (16 years)

They all peaked much higher than Karl too

Karl aint even sniffin 11 Dirk, 04 KG or 03 Duncan

Nah, Malone's longevity is legendary. For 17 straight seasons (1987-2003), from age 23 through 39, he averaged at least 20 ppg, most times scoring in the high 20s. His scoring average during this time was 26.0 ppg and 10.3 rpg.

[rmt]

Duncan and Garnett are greater/better PFs= power forward.

Malone is a better PF= Pedophile Forward or Payment-less Father (this guy refused to pay $100 weekly child support payments out of his 7 figure salary)

Knock-out elbow too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BgSB2aFRP4

[Im Still Ballin]

Nah, Malone's longevity is legendary. For 17 straight seasons (1987-2003), from age 23 through 39, he averaged at least 20 ppg, most times scoring in the high 20s. His scoring average during this time was 26.0 ppg and 10.3 rpg.
The combination of elite strength and conditioning, technical and tactical supremacy.

He could have played well into his 40's if he wanted. He could have been a valuable bench vet til he was 45 I reckon. I wished he went through with signing with San Antonio in 2005... He could have won a ring, and been a contributing piece off the bench all the way til the late 2000's.

[JtotheIzzo]

"Most overrated player in NBA history."
-Bob Ryan


Barkley >>>

[Im Still Ballin]

"Most overrated player in NBA history."
-Bob Ryan


Barkley >>>
No way Hozay

[Jasper]

I am glad OP as well as other threads look back at the all time greats and appreciate the players.

I watched Malone play , and he was at the time the proto type player of the future.
His off season work ethic was bare none - the best of the league. It was Jordan later to realize that he needed to work as hard as Malone in the off season with weight training so he would not get pushed around.

Fast forward to our modern day NBA- all NBA players work as hard now as Malone and Jordan to be competitive in the league as well as maintain having a job.

Malone's all round game was better than any PF in the league.
Comparisons of 'Mr. fundamental' is uncalled for.
If Malone had a franchise like the Spurs' , he would of had several rings as well.
Why do you think Malone left Utah :confusedshrug:
It was based on the owner thinking a two man game could beat the best team in the NBA the Bulls.

[90sgoat]

:facepalm

The constant Tim Duncan is power forward claims.

Tim Duncan is 7 foot tall and plays back to basket almost, anchors defenses from the 5 spot.

Tim Duncan being listed as power forward is simply because Spurs played two centers and used a second center to guard opposing centers mainly Shaq, to keep Duncan out of foul trouble.

Duncan plays like a center, is a center in all but name.

[feyki]

Peak ;

Duncan
Elgin
Barkley
Pettit
Karl
Dirk
Garnett


Career ;

Duncan
Elgin
Pettit
Dirk
Karl
Barkley
Garnett

..

[bizil]

In terms of a PURE power forward, I think Malone is the ultimate PF. For example, Timmy was a 7 footer who had the traits of a dominant center. He would have been one of the GOATs as a PF or C. For all intents and purposes, KG and Barkley were combo forwards. Both played plenty of SF early in their careers. They had world class SF skills and athletic ability to bring to the PF. And Dirk is the ultimate stretch PF who had the scoring skillset of the great swingmen.

So when u look at it like that, Malone was the ultimate PF. He was born to play the position AND took the things Petitt and Hayes did to the ultimate level. GOAT wise, Mailman is arguably the #2 PF. Peak wise, I would take Timmy, Barkley, and KG over Mailman.

[rmt]

:facepalm

The constant Tim Duncan is power forward claims.

Tim Duncan is 7 foot tall and plays back to basket almost, anchors defenses from the 5 spot.

Tim Duncan being listed as power forward is simply because Spurs played two centers and used a second center to guard opposing centers mainly Shaq, to keep Duncan out of foul trouble.

Duncan plays like a center, is a center in all but name.

I respectfully disagree. Let's compare with Shaq - would you team Shaq with Rasho, Malik Rose, Oberto, Elson, Blair, Kurt Thomas, Willis, Nazr, Massenberg, Splitter, Baynes? No, you wouldn't because none of them would provide spacing for Shaq (had a jumpshot). Duncan played (offensively) with all these players as PF to their center.

He should be lauded for the ability to play both positions as it offered the Spurs tremendous flexibility in roster and salary. Even within one game, he could go from PF to C depending on who he was playing with (obviously not now in his old age when movement is more of a concern).

[JtotheIzzo]

In terms of a PURE power forward, I think Malone is the ultimate PF. For example, Timmy was a 7 footer who had the traits of a dominant center. He would have been one of the GOATs as a PF or C. For all intents and purposes, KG and Barkley were combo forwards. Both played plenty of SF early in their careers. They had world class SF skills and athletic ability to bring to the PF. And Dirk is the ultimate stretch PF who had the scoring skillset of the great swingmen.

So when u look at it like that, Malone was the ultimate PF. He was born to play the position AND took the things Petitt and Hayes did to the ultimate level. GOAT wise, Mailman is arguably the #2 PF. Peak wise, I would take Timmy, Barkley, and KG over Mailman.

Great post.

I would like to add that as an older dude, I lived through the Malone era, and he was never considered in the top 3 players in the league and never once considered the second best player behind MJ.

Clyde had a run at number 2
Bird and Magic were both number 2 (number 1 before MJ)
Barkley was a number 2
Even Pippen was considered a 2 by many

Malone was never considered the best non-Jordan in the league, he had a style of play that was totally stoppable in the clutch (think Minny KG), and the most influentital sports writer of his generation (Bob Ryan) called him the most overrrated player in NBA history.

He compiled amazing stats, kept himself in amazing shape, and was a team guy, but he just wasn't a true belt holder. Not even the intercontinental belt.

[MiseryCityTexas]

We probably wouldn't be talking about how great a power forward Mailman was if it weren't for Stockton's playmaking ability. Look what happened to Amare and Kemp's games after leaving teams with elite point guards.

[Im Still Ballin]

We probably wouldn't be talking about how great a power forward Mailman was if it weren't for Stockin's playmaking ability. looked what happened to Amare and Kemp's games after leaving teams with elite point guards.
Look in the earlier pages of the thread

OP accumulated the handfull of games when Stockton was injured

[Stringer Bell]

Knock-out elbow too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BgSB2aFRP4

Dude was vicious. The Isiah one was brutal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0RGcMhGMk4

[Stringer Bell]

:facepalm

The constant Tim Duncan is power forward claims.

Tim Duncan is 7 foot tall and plays back to basket almost, anchors defenses from the 5 spot.

Tim Duncan being listed as power forward is simply because Spurs played two centers and used a second center to guard opposing centers mainly Shaq, to keep Duncan out of foul trouble.

Duncan plays like a center, is a center in all but name.


I respectfully disagree. Let's compare with Shaq - would you team Shaq with Rasho, Malik Rose, Oberto, Elson, Blair, Kurt Thomas, Willis, Nazr, Massenberg, Splitter, Baynes? No, you wouldn't because none of them would provide spacing for Shaq (had a jumpshot). Duncan played (offensively) with all these players as PF to their center.

He should be lauded for the ability to play both positions as it offered the Spurs tremendous flexibility in roster and salary. Even within one game, he could go from PF to C depending on who he was playing with (obviously not now in his old age when movement is more of a concern).

I'm not even sure a lot of times regarding traditional positions. It's kind of semantics, especially nowadays, given the versatility and unusual skillset of a lot of players.

One of the descriptions of the center is having a back-to-the-basket game. Just judging by that, then Kevin McHale was the center and Robert Parish was the power forward on those Celtic teams. Parish could post up but was still not on the level of McHale there. Bill Laimbeer was a center but was a lousy post-up player, he was on the other hand a terrific outside shooter for a big man.

Michael Jordan was the biggest post-up threat on those Bulls championship teams, followed by Scottie Pippen.

Interestingly Jordan was vocal in saying Hakeem Olajuwon wasn't a center. He would call Olajuwon a "small forward playing center", and said he wasn't even sure if Larry Bird was a 3 or a 4, due to his versatility.

Great centers usually fit the position strengths of both centers and PFs.

It's often just confusing regarding positions. I'll sometimes just say someone plays the wing or the post, but some players do a lot of both of that too.