Whose defends Grant Hill better here?

[3ball]

First Scottie takes a shot from 3:08 to 4:45:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BP16tRyYnlU&t=3m08s


After Grant Hill gets Scottie in foul trouble and Hill is unconscious, MJ gives it a shot from 4:46 to 5:42:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BP16tRyYnlU&t=4m46s


Who played better defense and made Hill work harder - Pippen or MJ?

[SouBeachTalents]

Pippen

[GIF REACTION]

Lebron appears out of nowhere and shuts Grant down!

[3ball]

Pippen
i JUST posted the thread.

you didn't watch... don't be lazy - it's 3 minutes total of tape

[lil jahlil]

Lebron appears out of nowhere and shuts Grant down!

Please, old role player Grant Hill would get FMVP on LeBron's ass.

[dubeta]

Hmm. Sorry but need to go with Pippen here

[3ball]

Hmm. Sorry but need to go with Pippen here


:wtf: .. Grant Hill bullies Pippen super-easy:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/4UeQlI.gif



Whereas MJ's superior aggressiveness and strength makes Grant Hill work super-hard:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/AXOd7a.gif


MJ defense > Pippen's... But we already knew this

[catch24]

Did Hill make that basket over Jordan? It cuts off as soon as he releases...

[DonDadda59]

Absolute shame we lost Grant to those chronic injuries. Dude was a less athletic (but still a beast) more skilled version of Bron. 21/10/7 caliber SF in an era where you were allowed to defend perimeter players.

I always thought Pippen gave him too much space on the wing. Grant hit him with some filthy crossovers in their matchups. Jordan played him more physically, which made him more effective even though MJ was 6'6" 220ish lbs while Grant was 6'8" 235ish.

But damn, you see those all around skills Grant had- the ball-handling, footwork, post up, passing. He and Penny were special players that got cut down way too soon.

[3ball]

Did Hill make that basket over Jordan? It cuts off as soon as he releases...


No, Grant missed it but a foul was called, although a foul isn't seen on the play - here was the actual play:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BP16tRyYnlU&t=4m46s

[FKAri]

3ball is the psycopath ISH deserves but not the one it needs right now

[Prime_Shaq]

Nobody guards Grant Hill

[catch24]

No, Grant missed it but a foul was called, although a foul isn't seen on the play - here was the actual play:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BP16tRyYnlU&t=4m46s

To be honest, I'm not sure how Hill drawing a foul would benefit Jordan in this comparison.

Thanks for the clip though. That crossover on Pippen around the 3:00 minute mark is filthy. My Gawd :eek:

[JerrySeinfeld]

:biggums: How did tha refs miss that travel that Hill did vs Jordan?

[3ball]

:facepalm

[3ball]

Hmm. Sorry but need to go with Pippen here



Pippen can't handle Grant off-the-dribble - he can't stay in front:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-09-2015/5FXjSn.gif



But MJ can - he stays in front of Grant every step of the way and forces wild shot:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/n1LWjI.gif


The ankle-breaker on Pippen looked like Kobe's famous ankle-break of Pippen before the Shaq lob... Pippen couldn't handle quick, ballhandling wings like Kobe, Grant or Westbrook off-the-dribble.

Otoh, MJ guarded quick point guards all the time, like Gary Payton, Isiah Thomas, Tim Hardaway and Rod Strickland, so he was much better against quick ballhandlers than Pippen.. MJ was also the much quicker player with far better lateral footspeed and explosiveness.
.

[3ball]

I'm not sure how Hill drawing a foul would benefit Jordan in this comparison.


Do you have eyes?.. Look how hard MJ made him work... Grant took about 10 dribbles to get in any kind of position to shoot and then got a phantom foul.. The gif took up 11 seconds.

I suppose you think it's good for a post player to take 10 dribbles and 11 seconds before getting a shot off?

Otoh, he bullies Pippen super-easy.. Takes 3 dribbles and it takes 3 seconds.

[catch24]

Do you have eyes?

Like... "hungry eyes" for anything Jordan related?

Nah bro. I'm pretty sure that's just you.

[3ball]

Like... "hungry eyes" for anything Jordan related?

Nah bro. I'm pretty sure that's just you.



you sound insulted or something.. the point is that it took 10 dribbles and 11 seconds for Grant to get a shot off vs. MJ on the post

compared to 3 dribble and 3 seconds to vs. scottie

here's another one where - look how much harder MJ made Grant work and take forever:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/zdIUjU.gif


When Grant went against Pippen, it was like Pippen wasn't even there - that's a far cry from when MJ guarded him.
.

[JerrySeinfeld]

you sound insulted or something.. the point is that it took 10 dribbles and 11 seconds for Grant to get a shot off vs. MJ on the post

compared to 3 dribble and 3 seconds to vs. scottie

here's another one where - look how much harder MJ made Grant work and take forever:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/zdIUjU.gif


When Grant went against Pippen, it was like Pippen wasn't even there that's a far cry from when MJ guarded him.

That was a travel. G. Hill established his pivot foot then shuffled it around trying to get around Jordan

[catch24]

you sound insulted or something.. the point is that it took 10 dribbles and 11 seconds for Grant to get a shot off vs. MJ on the post

compared to 3 dribble and 3 seconds to vs. scottie

here's another one where - look how much harder MJ made Grant work and take forever:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/zdIUjU.gif


When Grant went against Pippen, it was like Pippen wasn't even there that's a far cry from when MJ guarded him.

Not really sure how those extra dribbles effected Hill when he totally outplayed Jordan H2H in this game. Judging from that game-edit, he took BOTH Pippen and Jordan to school.

BTW, I couldn't care less about your Jordan worship. You could pray to his UNC practice shorts for all I care. :confusedshrug:

[3ball]

Not really sure how those extra dribbles effected Hill when he totally outplayed Jordan H2H in this game. Judging from that game-edit, he took BOTH Pippen and Jordan to school.


The extra dribbles mean Hill is working much harder against Jordan - extra dribbles aren't a good thing.. MJ is forcing him into much tougher shots.





Judging from that game-edit, he took BOTH Pippen and Jordan to school.


Hill dropped all 33 of the 37 on Pippen - Jordan only guarded him the last 2 minutes of the game and he clearly made Hill work much harder than Pippen

If you don't want to acknowledge this, then you're the definition of a coward, which is fine.. It's a free country.. People can be what they want.





BTW, I couldn't care less about your Jordan worship. You could pray to his UNC practice shorts for all I care.


You care enough to respond several times itt, and also to lessen yourself by being a coward afraid to admit the truth..

[catch24]

Afraid to admit what truth?

Didn't realize I was underoath here.... :oldlol:

[3ball]

.
Pippen couldn't handle quick wings with good handle like Hill or Kobe:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/NZrhCv.gif



Here's Kobe shaking his head after breaking Pippen BADLY in 99' - Pippen is joke to him:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/DtKoPr.gif..



But just a few months earlier, Jordan had no problem stuffing Kobe's crossover in 98' ASG:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/EStPHq.gif



Here's another one - Pippen can't handle Grant off-the-dribble - he can't stay in front:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-09-2015/5FXjSn.gif



But MJ can - he stays in front of Grant every step of the way and forces wild shot:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-10-2015/n1LWjI.gif


The reason MJ was so much better defending quick ballhandlers like Hill, Kobe or Westbrook is because he was a 2-guard, and was the frequently the primary, all-game defender on quick point guards.

For example, MJ was matched up against Gary Payton from the TIP-OFF in Game 3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meL62CUehuw&t=0m48s) and Game 5 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFiqeJcgXfg) of the NBA Finals and was the main defender throughout the game..

MJ was also the main defender and matched up from the tip-off against Isiah Thomas (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9MfhFFE7fc&t=0m28s) and Rod Strickland (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3JqY3CECW8).. And we all know he was matched up from tip-off against Magic, when he guarded Magic for 14 of 20 quarters (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11713075&postcount=45) (70%) in the 1991 Finals.

MJ's far greater experience playing quick ballhandling guards and his superior athleticism made him a better perimeter defender than Pippen..
.

[lil jahlil]

^ Post Bulls Pippen? You really are trolling now.

[Uncle Drew]

Whose defends?

[3ball]

^ Post Bulls Pippen? You really are trolling now.


The MJ and Pippen plays vs. Kobe occurred within 1 year.

MJ stuffed Kobe's crossover in 1998 All-star game - this is shown above in 3rd gif- while Pippen gets broken by Kobe's crossover 8 months later in Houston during 1999 season (2nd gif).. :confusedshrug:

MJ was the far better perimeter defender - he had superior athleticism/quickness, and as a 2-guard, MJ was accustomed to guarding quick guards all the time, including point guards..

Seriously, how many gif comparisons do I have to post???.. I've already done 3 or 4 itt.. And they're all VERY obvious in showing the difference between MJ and Scottie., And yet there are more... :pimp:
.

[Round Mound]

Grant Hill in terms of individual offense was better but Pippen`s impact defensively was big man like. Pippen is the best defensive sf ever. BTW: Grant Hill before injuries was incredible and worthy of HOF material.

[3ball]

Pippen`s impact defensively was big man like.


Pippen was not a rim-protector, so his impact was not like a big man... It might sound cute to say, but it's not true.

Also, MJ was the superior defender, as the many examples itt demonstrate, and as was common knowledge AT THE TIME, before new fans started to revise history:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s

[Round Mound]

Pippen was not a rim-protector, so his impact was not like a big man... It might sound cute to say, but it's not true.

Also, MJ was the superior defender, as the many examples itt demonstrate, and as was common knowledge AT THE TIME, before new fans started to revise history:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOgJhzj4W9M&t=35m00s

:no:

Statistically it is prooven that Pippen impacted the game close to big man levels. No other SF has lead the league in defensive rating other than Pippen 1 for a whole season and for two 2 play-offs. Similar player was 6`7 Dennis Rodman who also lead two play-offs in defensive rating but he played the 4 more with the Bulls (another one of Jordan`s teamates). So Jordan had the best all around, defensive & play making sf of the 90s in his team and also Rodman: another goat defenisve player. Jordan had the most help of any other 90s superstar: even broken doen statistically it shows.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_yearly.html

NBA & ABA Year-by-Year Leaders and Records for Defensive Rating

Season Lg Player DRtg Tm

2014-15 NBA Kawhi Leonard 96.39 SAS
2013-14 NBA Joakim Noah 95.82 CHI
2012-13 NBA Tim Duncan 94.97 SAS
2011-12 NBA Kevin Garnett 94.21 BOS
2010-11 NBA Dwight Howard 94.18 ORL
2009-10 NBA Dwight Howard 95.44 ORL
2008-09 NBA Dwight Howard 94.56 ORL
2007-08 NBA Kevin Garnett 93.85 BOS
2006-07 NBA Tim Duncan 94.45 SAS
2005-06 NBA Tim Duncan 94.41 SAS
2004-05 NBA Tim Duncan 93.17 SAS
2003-04 NBA Ben Wallace 87.48 DET
2002-03 NBA Ben Wallace 89.99 DET
2001-02 NBA Ben Wallace 92.89 DET
2000-01 NBA Marcus Camby 90.56 NYK
1999-00 NBA David Robinson* 92.22 SAS
1998-99 NBA David Robinson* 87.94 SAS
1997-98 NBA David Robinson* 93.61 SAS
1996-97 NBA Alonzo Mourning* 95.31 MIA
1995-96 NBA David Robinson* 96.45 SAS
1994-95 NBA Scottie Pippen* 98.25 CHI
1993-94 NBA Patrick Ewing* 92.88 NYK
1992-93 NBA Patrick Ewing* 94.34 NYK
1991-92 NBA David Robinson* 94.38 SAS
1990-91 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 93.39 HOU
1989-90 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 93.43 HOU
1988-89 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 94.86 HOU
1987-88 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 98.05 HOU
1986-87 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 98.75 HOU
1985-86 NBA Bill Walton* 97.49 BOS
1984-85 NBA Mark Eaton 96.50 UTA
1983-84 NBA Alton Lister 98.63 MIL
1982-83 NBA Alton Lister 96.19 MIL
1981-82 NBA Jack Sikma 97.23 SEA
1980-81 NBA Alvan Adams 96.24 PHO
1979-80 NBA Tree Rollins 95.90 ATL

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/def_rtg_yearly_p.html

NBA & ABA Year-by-Year Playoff Leaders and Records for Defensive Rating

Year Lg Player DRtg Tm

2015 NBA Andrew Bogut 94.34 GSW
2014 NBA Paul Millsap 97.74 ATL
2013 NBA Kevin Garnett 90.30 BOS
2012 NBA Josh Smith 93.20 ATL
2011 NBA Dwight Howard 95.73 ORL
2010 NBA Dwight Howard 92.98 ORL
2009 NBA Dwight Howard 98.35 ORL
2008 NBA Tim Duncan 98.51 SAS
2007 NBA Jason Kidd 94.63 NJN
2006 NBA Alonzo Mourning* 95.13 MIA
2005 NBA Ben Wallace 93.48 DET
2004 NBA Ben Wallace 83.91 DET
2003 NBA Ben Wallace 90.51 DET
2002 NBA Ben Wallace 86.41 DET
2001 NBA David Robinson* 92.42 SAS
2000 NBA David Robinson* 84.01 SAS
1999 NBA David Robinson* 87.33 SAS
1998 NBA David Robinson* 93.42 SAS
1997 NBA Alonzo Mourning* 94.64 MIA
1996 NBA Scottie Pippen* 96.07 CHI
1995 NBA David Robinson* 97.53 SAS
1994 NBA Patrick Ewing* 94.36 NYK
1993 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 96.56 HOU
1992 NBA Dennis Rodman* 99.35 DET
1991 NBA Scottie Pippen* 99.52 CHI
1990 NBA Bill Laimbeer 96.32 DET
1989 NBA Dennis Rodman* 99.38 DET
1988 NBA Bill Laimbeer 99.51 DET
1987 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 102.24 HOU
1986 NBA Bill Walton* 100.62 BOS
1985 NBA Ralph Sampson* 97.16 HOU
1984 NBA Buck Williams 99.41 NJN
1983 NBA Moses Malone* 95.76 PHI
1982 NBA Larry Bird* 94.21 BOS
1981 NBA Truck Robinson 94.51 PHO
1980 NBA Larry Bird* 95.93 BOS

PLUS/MINUS

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/bpm_top_10_p.html

NBA & ABA Year-by-Year Top 10 Playoff Leaders and Records for Box Plus/Minus

1990: 8th
1991: 6th
1992: 3rd
1994: 3rd (NO Jordan)
1995: 6th
1996: 1st! (In The GOAT Team For The 90s)
1997: 10th
1998: 4th
2000: 4th

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/bpm_top_10.html

NBA & ABA Year-by-Year Top 10 Leaders and Records for Box Plus/Minus

1991: 6th
1992: 6th
1994: 2nd! (N0 Jordan)
1995: 2nd! (Lesser Games With Jordan)
1996: 4th
1997: 6th
1998: 3rd

Stop Underrating Pippen :no: :rolleyes:

[3ball]

NBA & ABA Year-by-Year Leaders and Records for Defensive Rating



^^^ Dumb.. Individual DRtg is based significantly on TEAM PERFORMANCE and therefore flawed.. i.e. the DRtg's of good defenders will be understated on bad teams, and the DRtg's of bad defenders will be overstated on good defensive teams:


Out of necessity (owing to a lack of defensive data in the basic boxscore), individual Defensive Ratings are heavily influenced by the team's defensive efficiency. They assume that all teammates are equally good at forcing non-steal turnovers and non-block misses, as well as assuming that all teammates face the same number of total possessions per minute.

See 2nd footnote at bottom: http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html

I know you didn't read the above because you don't have the attention span, so you'll post the same bullshit the next time about individual defensive rating, even though the stat is based significantly on team performance.
.

[3ball]

Jordan had the most help of any other 90s superstar


MJ needed to average 35/7/7/51% in the 1991-1993 playoffs and 36/7/8/53% in the 1991-1993 Finals to win his rings - this is the most production any player has ever produced to win a ring.

Since MJ had to produce the most, that means he had the least help.. 2+2=4.. Unless you can find me someone else with equal or better stats... But you can't, because they don't exist.. MJ produced the most to win his rings - it's a statistical fact... Don't be surprised - we all know that Pippen/Grant is less than:

Kareem/Worthy
McHale/Parish/DJ
Parker/Ginobili/Kawhi
Wade/Bosh/Allen

And remember, Horace Grant started every game for Lakers in 2001 RS and PO's, with 9/8 average.. So Pippen/Grant < Kobe/Grant too.. Pippen/Grant is simply weaker cast than all these guys, which is why MJ's stats needed to be GOAT.
.

[Sarcastic]

Jordan defended Grant better, and was a better defender than Pippen.

[Gileraracer]

It's clearly MJ. But that doesn't make MJ a better overall defender. Both where great

[3ball]

Jordan defended Grant better, and was a better defender than Pippen.


The funny thing is that Horace Grant started every game for Lakers in 2001 regular season and playoffs, so MJ's supporting cast of Pippen/Grant < Shaq's Kobe/Grant (and Glen Rice).... This is in addition to Pippen/Grant being less than:

Kareem/Worthy
McHale/Parish/DJ
Parker/Ginobili/Kawhi
Wade/Bosh/Allen

We should expect MJ's supporting cast to be worse than Magic's, Bird's, Duncan's, Lebron's and Kobe's, since MJ's playoff and Finals stats are superior to all these guys.. How could MJ have a better supporting cast, but still need to produce the most?... Obviously, he had a worse supporting cast than all these guys, as shown above, so he had to produce the most.

[3ball]

It's clearly MJ. But that doesn't make MJ a better overall defender. Both where great


I go with flpiii's logic here... MJ carried between a 50% and 250% greater offensive burden than Pippen.. Clearly, if MJ had a much lower burden and was a specialist like Pippen, then he would be a FAR better defender than Pippen.

End of story.. Well not really... Consider MJ's defensive impact in conjunction with his offensive impact... The Bulls offensive rating was 106.1 and 109.5 in 1994 and 1995 - this was good for 14th and 10th in the league..

But when MJ came back for full season in 1996, the Bulls ORtg skyrocketed to 115.2, which is #1 ALL TIME, even though they were playing 4 on 5 offensively (rodman)..... That's the goat impact... 14th in the league, to #1 all time.... due to 1 man.

[90sgoat]

Absolute shame we lost Grant to those chronic injuries. Dude was a less athletic (but still a beast) more skilled version of Bron. 21/10/7 caliber SF in an era where you were allowed to defend perimeter players.

I always thought Pippen gave him too much space on the wing. Grant hit him with some filthy crossovers in their matchups. Jordan played him more physically, which made him more effective even though MJ was 6'6" 220ish lbs while Grant was 6'8" 235ish.

But damn, you see those all around skills Grant had- the ball-handling, footwork, post up, passing. He and Penny were special players that got cut down way too soon.

Not only that, Hill was a role model and class act, hailed to carry the league after Jordan as its face. Instead we got AI and the hiphop generation which almost ruined the league. Also look at Hill exposes the bumbling awkwardness of Lebron.:facepalm

[Round Mound]

MJ needed to average 35/7/7/51% in the 1991-1993 playoffs and 36/7/8/53% in the 1991-1993 Finals to win his rings - this is the most production any player has ever produced to win a ring.

Since MJ had to produce the most, that means he had the least help.. 2+2=4.. Unless you can find me someone else with equal or better stats... But you can't, because they don't exist.. MJ produced the most to win his rings - it's a statistical fact... Don't be surprised - we all know that Pippen/Grant is less than:

Kareem/Worthy
McHale/Parish/DJ
Parker/Ginobili/Kawhi
Wade/Bosh/Allen

And remember, Horace Grant started every game for Lakers in 2001 RS and PO's, with 9/8 average.. So Pippen/Grant < Kobe/Grant too.. Pippen/Grant is simply weaker cast than all these guys, which is why MJ's stats needed to be GOAT.
.

90s Superstars Not 80s Superstars

[lil jahlil]

The MJ and Pippen plays vs. Kobe occurred within 1 year.

MJ stuffed Kobe's crossover in 1998 All-star game - this is shown above in 3rd gif- while Pippen gets broken by Kobe's crossover 8 months later in Houston during 1999 season (2nd gif).. :confusedshrug:

MJ was the far better perimeter defender - he had superior athleticism/quickness, and as a 2-guard, MJ was accustomed to guarding quick guards all the time, including point guards..

Seriously, how many gif comparisons do I have to post???.. I've already done 3 or 4 itt.. And they're all VERY obvious in showing the difference between MJ and Scottie., And yet there are more... :pimp:
.

There is certainly a good argument, but showing gifs of MJ in an all-star game in comparison to Pippen out of his prime (one of those gifs is not just a year later since he is on the Blazers), while Kobe is improving year by year as well, is not it.

[scandisk_]

Better question. Who defends MJ better here?

A: 3ball

[andgar923]

I thought it was accepted that MJ was the better 1 on 1 defender?

Pip is great but he used to get torched by a number of players. His biggest advantage was his length, once players adjusted they gave him the business.

Now, not to say Pip didn't defend them well at times, nor that MJ never got done up. Pip just happened to get done up more often.

Some players looked forward to playing against Pip cause they had big games against him.

Ceballos recently stated in an interview how he always killed him.

[Dragonyeuw]

That highlight showed that Scottie gave Grant a lot of room, pretty much playing him for the drive, but didnt have quite the lateral quickness to recover from Grants crossovers. MJ played him tighter, more physical, and does recover quicker if crossed over because of better lateral movement. He was also more active with this hands, causing Hill to employ a more cautious approach with his ball-handling. I recall Iverson commenting after his famous crossover on MJ that MJ recovered about as well as you could and nearly blocked the shot. And that was 34 year old MJ. He was incredibly quick-footed, even during the second 3peat.

Also, its not always a case of the better defender being an exact physical match. MJ's better defenders werent physical equals, they were 6'3/4 pesky and active types like Joe Dumars, Payton, Alvin Robertson, Moncrief etc.

I think one thing that gets lost in this comparison is how much energy MJ had to expend on offense. Imagine if he wasnt actually a GOAT level scorer and used as a defensive specialist like a Tony Allen?

[97 bulls]

This is so ridiculous. Picture the scenario. The Bulls are up by 20+ point in this game. PIPPEN LET UP ON HIM. It happens all the time. The same thing would happen with Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain. Russell would hold him down, Celtics get a big lead, then Russlll lets up and Chamberlain gets his stats. Go look at the ending scores of the Bulls/ Pistons games of thus time. The Bulls always blew them out.

And let's not forget the situation of these two teams. The Bulls had sown up homecourt the Pistons were still battling for playoff positioning.

I dont believe some of you guys actually call yourselves basketball fans.

[andgar923]

That highlight showed that Scottie gave Grant a lot of room, pretty much playing him for the drive, but didnt have quite the lateral quickness to recover from Grants crossovers. MJ played him tighter, more physical, and does recover quicker if crossed over because of better lateral movement. He was also more active with this hands, causing Hill to employ a more cautious approach with his ball-handling. I recall Iverson commenting after his famous crossover on MJ that MJ recovered about as well as you could and nearly blocked the shot. And that was 34 year old MJ. He was incredibly quick-footed, even during the second 3peat.

Also, its not always a case of the better defender being an exact physical match. MJ's better defenders werent physical equals, they were 6'3/4 pesky and active types like Joe Dumars, Payton, Alvin Robertson, Moncrief etc.

I think one thing that gets lost in this comparison is how much energy MJ had to expend on offense. Imagine if he wasnt actually a GOAT level scorer and used as a defensive specialist like a Tony Allen?

You and others already mentioned how great MJ would've been if MJ focused on defense instead of carrying the offense.

Yet MJ was ALWAYS active on defense, and opposing coaches tried to tire MJ by forcing him to chase his defensive assignment all over the court. They tried to send him through multiple screens and run all over the court.

Whereas Pip usually hovered in a specific section.

Both switched, helped and played one on one.

MJ tended to be the more active.

Chasing Hornaceck around is harder than guarding an perimeter player that isos.

[andgar923]

This is so ridiculous. Picture the scenario. The Bulls are up by 20+ point in this game. PIPPEN LET UP ON HIM. It happens all the time. The same thing would happen with Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain. Russell would hold him down, Celtics get a big lead, then Russlll lets up and Chamberlain gets his stats. Go look at the ending scores of the Bulls/ Pistons games of thus time. The Bulls always blew them out.

And let's not forget the situation of these two teams. The Bulls had sown up homecourt the Pistons were still battling for playoff positioning.

I dont believe some of you guys actually call yourselves basketball fans.
So Pip is lazy.

Gotcha!

Good thing MJ was there to pick up the slack.

[Dragonyeuw]

You and others already mentioned how great MJ would've been if MJ focused on defense instead of carrying the offense.

Yet MJ was ALWAYS active on defense, and opposing coaches tried to tire MJ by forcing him to chase his defensive assignment all over the court. They tried to send him through multiple screens and run all over the court.

Whereas Pip usually hovered in a specific section.

Both switched, helped and played one on one.

MJ tended to be the more active.

Chasing Hornaceck around is harder than guarding an perimeter player that isos.

What Im saying is imagine just how much more of a defensive terror he could have been * if he concentrated on nothing but defense*. He was already a terror while having to carry the offense. A certain amount of energy would have had to be conserved for that side, even if it wasnt apparent because MJ at his peak went hard every night. But thats just what was great about him, and what separates him. He had an incredible motor, was always very active on-ball,off-ball, and on defense within the same game.

[97 bulls]

So Pip is lazy.

Gotcha!

Good thing MJ was there to pick up the slack.
Lol. Hardly lazy. This type of thing happens all the time. One team is just trying finish the season goes into a game get a big lead, then they let up.

[97 bulls]

What Im saying is imagine just how much more of a defensive terror he could have been * if he concentrated on nothing but defense*. He was already a terror while having to carry the offense. A certain amount of energy would have had to be conserved for that side, even if it wasnt apparent because MJ at his peak went hard every night. But thats just what was great about him, and what separates him. He had an incredible motor, was always very active on-ball,off-ball, and on defense within the same game.
Its why Jordan is the greatest ever. I always say Jordan had no weakness. And did everything at a high level.

[Dragonyeuw]

To be honest, its a 3 minute stretch of game. Its too small a sample size to take much from it other than commenting on what was going on in that particular clip.

[andgar923]

So what you're saying is that Pip isn't a competitor, Pip doesn't aLways bring his A game, Pip doesn't elevate his game for all star players, specially a player some compared to him.

Gotcha!

[andgar923]

What Im saying is imagine just how much more of a defensive terror he could have been * if he concentrated on nothing but defense*. He was already a terror while having to carry the offense. A certain amount of energy would have had to be conserved for that side, even if it wasnt apparent because MJ at his peak went hard every night. But thats just what was great about him, and what separates him. He had an incredible motor, was always very active on-ball,off-ball, and on defense within the same game.
I agree, and I wasn't denouncing your post, simply adding to it.

[Dragonyeuw]

I agree, and I wasn't denouncing your post, simply adding to it.

:pimp: * brofist *

[Dragonyeuw]

Its why Jordan is the greatest ever. I always say Jordan had no weakness. And did everything at a high level.

Indeed, but as an aside the tirade against Pippen just to prop up MJ is becoming annoying. They're my two favorite players all-time, so these debates always wind up agenda-ridden and pointless to me by the end.

[97 bulls]

So what you're saying is that Pip isn't a competitor, Pip doesn't aLways bring his A game, Pip doesn't elevate his game for all star players, specially a player some compared to him.

Gotcha!
Then youd have to say that about all vets. Bill Russell is the greatest winner in sports. He always did that to wilt Chamberlain.

Pippen and the Bulls saw the big picture. Staying healthy for a championship. Not trying to out do some first round fodder type team to prove a point. I mean the Bulls won. Aint that the whole reason teams play???? To win.

[97 bulls]

I went back and looked up the W/L record of the Bulls and Pistons during their tenure with their respective teams at the time.

The Bulls won by 15, 15, 15, 3, 21, 18, 12, 15, 9, 5(the Bulls were up 20+ and then the Pistons made a run)

Overall the Bulls were 11-1 during this time winning by an average of 16-17 ppg roughly. Hill overall shot 48% and scored 21 ppg vs Pip. But if you take out the Portland years, the FG% goes down. Hill shot 65 and 61% vs an older Pippen when he was with Portland. The last game, Hill only played 9 minutes. And he scored 30 and 24 pts in those games. Take away those two games vs Pip when he was old and Hills stats are roughly 17 ppg on 45% shooting for their career vs each other with an 11-1 record vs Pippen.

[hitmanyr2k]

Pippen can't handle Grant off-the-dribble - he can't stay in front:



Blah,

Doesn't let Grant Hill get to the rim and forces a 3 second violation. Doesn't need any hand checking either. Just straight footwork.

http://i.imgur.com/B7sIryL.gif

Fights through screen and blocks Hill

http://i.imgur.com/6ZlAdAV.gif

[catch24]

Blah,

Doesn't let Grant Hill get to the rim and forces a 3 second violation. Doesn't need any hand checking either. Just straight footwork.

http://i.imgur.com/B7sIryL.gif

Fights through screen and blocks Hill

http://i.imgur.com/6ZlAdAV.gif

:applause:

The way Pippen defended Hill here looked better than ANY of the Jordan/Hill GIFs brought to our attention by OP (which were also drawn fouls :oldlol:).

[MiseryCityTexas]

It sucks that 2k games will never put any grant hill retro teamns in nba 2k.

[3ball]

:applause:

The way Pippen defended Hill here looked better than ANY of the Jordan/Hill GIFs brought to our attention by OP (which were also drawn fouls :oldlol:).


The two plays by another poster were extracted from a sample of Pippen's entire career guarding Hill.. Whereas MJ's plays were found in 2 minutes from one game.. Originally, I didn't even know MJ came up at the end of the video guarding Hill.. That's what allowed the comparison.

And the difference in defensive capability was pretty obvious... MJ was the far quicker, more aggressive and stronger defender.
.

[catch24]

The two plays by another poster were extracted from a sample of Pippen's entire career guarding Hill.. Whereas MJ's plays were found in 2 minutes from one game..

The difference in defensive capability is pretty obvious... MJ was the far quicker, more aggressive and stronger defender.

In that last GIF? Find a clip of MJ defending Hill better than Pippen

:confusedshrug:

[3ball]

Find a clip of MJ defending defending Grant Hill better.

:confusedshrug:
Those were probably some of the few minutes that exist of MJ guarding Hill, since MJ was a shooting guard, and didn't guard that many SF's, just like Pippen didn't guard many shooting guards.

Like I said - I didn't even know MJ came up at the end of the video.. It was a surprise when i watched it, and those 2 minutes of footage allowed the comparison.

The difference in defensive capability was pretty obvious... MJ was the far quicker, more aggressive and stronger defender.

[3ball]

.
Here's All-Star Paul Pierce's stats vs. 39-40 year old Wizard MJ and 36-year old Portland Scottie in 2002 and 2003:


Paul Pierce vs. Jordan ( http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=piercpa01&p2=jordami01): 22.5 ppg on 35.2%

Paul Pierce vs. Pippen ( http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=piercpa01&p2=pippesc01): 23.6 ppg on 43.0%


:confusedshrug: .. This is apples-to-apples, where both MJ and Pippen are small forwards and matched up against another small forward, AND that small forward is from MJ's Wizards years so we're not comparing MJ's Bulls years to Pippen's Portland years and vice-versa.
.

[catch24]

Those were probably some of the few minutes that exist of MJ guarding Hill, since MJ was a shooting guard, and didn't guard that many SF's, just like Pippen didn't guard many shooting guards.

Like I said - I didn't even know MJ came up at the end of the video.. It was a surprise when i watched it, and those 2 minutes of footage allowed the comparison.

The difference in defensive capability was pretty obvious... MJ was the far quicker, more aggressive and stronger defender.

Nah. That block by Pippen was a better defensive play than any of the ones you showed of Jordan, which were drawn fouls.

results >>>

[3ball]

Nah. That block by Pippen was a better defensive play than any of the ones you showed of Jordan, which were drawn fouls.

results >>>
Again, Pippen's 2 plays are from an entire career of guarding Hill, while MJ's are from 2 minutes of a single game.

btw, Hill was on the road in Pippen's 2 gifs and might not have been playing as well - we didn't see MJ guarding Hill in that game, so the comparison isn't as good as the OP game where both guard Hill on the same night - and the eye test shows MJ was the far quicker, more aggressive and stronger defender.
.

[inclinerator]

lebron

[3ball]

lebron
Here's All-Star Paul Pierce's stats vs. Wizard MJ and Portland Scottie in 2002 and 2003:


Paul Pierce vs. Jordan ( http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=piercpa01&p2=jordami01): 22.5 ppg on 35.2%

Paul Pierce vs. Pippen ( http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=piercpa01&p2=pippesc01): 23.6 ppg on 43.0%


:confusedshrug: .. This is apples-to-apples, where both MJ and Pippen are small forwards and matched up against another small forward, AND that small forward is from MJ's Wizards years so we're not comparing MJ's Bulls years to Pippen's Portland years and vice-versa.
.

[catch24]

Again, Pippen's 2 plays are from an entire career of guarding Hill, while MJ's are from 2 minutes of a single game.

btw, Hill was on the road in Pippen's 2 gifs and might not have been playing as well - we didn't see MJ guarding Hill in that game, so the comparison isn't as good as the OP game where both guard Hill on the same night - and the eye test shows MJ was the far quicker, more aggressive and stronger defender.
.

And that somehow negates what I said?

Bro, you asked which were better, and another posted topped all of them with his set of GIFs (no fouls, and actual results aka a blocked shot).

[inclinerator]

Here's All-Star Paul Pierce's stats vs. Wizard MJ and Portland Scottie in 2002 and 2003:


Paul Pierce vs. Jordan ( http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=piercpa01&p2=jordami01): 22.5 ppg on 35.2%

Paul Pierce vs. Pippen ( http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=piercpa01&p2=pippesc01): 23.6 ppg on 43.0%


:confusedshrug: .. This is apples-to-apples, where both MJ and Pippen are small forwards and matched up against another small forward, AND that small forward has to be from MJ's Wizards years so we're not comparing MJ's Bulls years to Pippen's Portland years and vice-versa.

lebron

[TripleA]

Michael Jordan is better individual defender but Scottie pippen brings a greater impact on defense to the team. It's like comparing Dwight Howard to chuck Hayes. Chucks Hayes can shut down any one in the post but his team defense lacks. Dwight can get abused in the post but he plays great team defense,
Wrecked 3brick. Look it up pippen has better defensive impact stats.
:cheers:

[red1]

lebron
correct

[3ball]

Wrecked 3brick. Look it up pippen has better defensive impact stats.
:cheers:


Larry Bird Career Defensive Box Score +/- : 2.52 (35th all time)

Scottie Pippen Career Defensive Box Score +/- : 2.36 (41st all time)



Larry Bird defense > Scottie Pippen


those type of stats are shit.. take this L

[juju151111]

Larry Bird Career Defensive Box Score +/- : 2.52 (35th all time)

Scottie Pippen Career Defensive Box Score +/- : 2.36 (41st all time)



Larry Bird defense > Scottie Pippen


those type of stats are shit.. take this L
Exactly its a team stat that had carlos boozer rated high on the bulls when he was complete garbage defensively

[K Xerxes]

I don't think Pippen was an ATG man to man defender like Jordan, but his team defense was enormously important to our success, and certainly worthy of ATG praise. I don't particularly care who the better defender between them was as their efforts ultimately culminated in 6 rings for the Bulls, and it's a pretty trivial argument unless you're psychotically obsessed with one of them.

[DoctorP]

Prime Grant Hill was not garbage.

[Hey Yo]

Again, Pippen's 2 plays are from an entire career of guarding Hill, while MJ's are from 2 minutes of a single game.

btw, Hill was on the road in Pippen's 2 gifs and might not have been playing as well - we didn't see MJ guarding Hill in that game, so the comparison isn't as good as the OP game where both guard Hill on the same night - and the eye test shows MJ was the far quicker, more aggressive and stronger defender.
.
:roll: You've really outdone yourself with that one.

Let me know when you give LeBron the benefit of the doubt when he was playing on the road.

[3ball]

Prime Grant Hill was not garbage.


Actually, from Grant Hill's rookie year in 1995, to his 3rd season in 1997 when he was selected for 1st Team All-NBA, everyone thought Grant Hill was better than Pippen.

He could have been selected 1st team from his rookie year but Pippen was boosted by 3-peating as the second option on the Bulls.. But anyone with 2 eyes saw that Grant had superior skill, bigger star potential and a ton of upside to go.. His last year before he got hurt, he averaged 26 ppg, which was a 5 point increase.

G. Hill 1995-1998 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hillgr01.html#1995-1998-sum:per_game): 20.7 ppg.. 8.3 rpg.. 6.5 apg.. 47.1% fg.. 21.7 PER
Pippen 1995-1998 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1995-1998-sum:per_game): 20.2 ppg.. 6.7 rpg.. 5.6 apg.. 46.9% fg.. 21.4 PER


The gap becomes bigger if we include 99' and 00'.

[3ball]

I don't think Pippen was an ATG man to man defender like Jordan, but his team defense was enormously important to our success


MJ's and Pippen's stats apples-to-apples stats against All-Star Paul Pierce (posted earlier) show that MJ was the better man-to-man defender.

MJ's help defense was better than Pippen's too.. But Pippen benefited from being able conserve energy and specialize defensively, since MJ was shouldering between 50% to 300% bigger offensive load.
.

[97 bulls]

MJ's and Pippen's stats apples-to-apples stats against All-Star Paul Pierce (posted earlier) show that MJ was the better man-to-man defender.

MJ's help defense was better than Pippen's too.. But Pippen benefited from being able conserve energy and specialize defensively, since MJ was shouldering between 50% to 300% bigger offensive load.
.
Lol. Only why you would be so hellbent on centering your argument around two players that age. They both were in their late 30s. Come on. And let's not forget that Jordan took time off so he was a lot more fresher than Pippen.

[97 bulls]

Actually, from Grant Hill's rookie year in 1995, to his 3rd season in 1997 when he was selected for 1st Team All-NBA, everyone thought Grant Hill was better than Pippen.

He could have been selected 1st team from his rookie year but Pippen was boosted by 3-peating as the second option on the Bulls.. But anyone with 2 eyes saw that Grant had superior skill, bigger star potential and a ton of upside to go.. His last year before he got hurt, he averaged 26 ppg, which was a 5 point increase.

G. Hill 1995-1998 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hillgr01.html#1995-1998-sum:per_game): 20.7 ppg.. 8.3 rpg.. 6.5 apg.. 47.1% fg.. 21.7 PER
Pippen 1995-1998 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1995-1998-sum:per_game): 20.2 ppg.. 6.7 rpg.. 5.6 apg.. 46.9% fg.. 21.4 PER

The gap becomes bigger if we include 99' and 00'.
But let's not forget the roles they played for their teams during the time your bringing up. I doubt Hill puts those stats up playing alongside Jordan.

[3ball]

I doubt Hill puts those stats up playing alongside Jordan.


Of course he would.. Just like Pippen, Hill would have the game's biggest assist target running around off-ball, except Hill was a far superior creator and playmaker off-the-dribble, so his game would be enhanced even more than Pippen's did.

[Bankaii]

Pippen played better defense, MJ just played tougher and fouled.

Either way Grant manhandled them both and scored on both plays:bowdown:

[knicksman]

jordan is better. Its just that offense is more important and harder than defense so he delegate it to pippen. I mean let role players do the easy task coz stamina is limited. Only losers like bran would care about those easy task like passing and defending. You dont see a ceo being at the same time the janitor.

[raprap]

Kobe Bryant.

[Goro]

Kobe Bryant.
:oldlol: Most overrated defender of all time.

[Mike Armstrong]

:roll: You've really outdone yourself with that one.

Let me know when you give LeBron the benefit of the doubt when he was playing on the road.
Yarp.

[Cali Syndicate]

Actually, from Grant Hill's rookie year in 1995, to his 3rd season in 1997 when he was selected for 1st Team All-NBA, everyone thought Grant Hill was better than Pippen.

He could have been selected 1st team from his rookie year but Pippen was boosted by 3-peating as the second option on the Bulls.. But anyone with 2 eyes saw that Grant had superior skill, bigger star potential and a ton of upside to go.. His last year before he got hurt, he averaged 26 ppg, which was a 5 point increase.

G. Hill 1995-1998 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hillgr01.html#1995-1998-sum:per_game): 20.7 ppg.. 8.3 rpg.. 6.5 apg.. 47.1% fg.. 21.7 PER
Pippen 1995-1998 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1995-1998-sum:per_game): 20.2 ppg.. 6.7 rpg.. 5.6 apg.. 46.9% fg.. 21.4 PER

The gap becomes bigger if we include 99' and 00'.

Hill was an all around better offensive player. Better slasher, better in the post, better playmaker and had an amazing stop and pop. Pippen did have a more consistent jumper as well as more range. Pippen was leaps and bounds better on the other side of the ball though.

I'd prefer Pippen over Hill on my team but many definitely did see Hill to be better in his prime, mainly because they focused on his offensive advantages over Pippen while conveniently overlooking Pippen's defensive prowess.

[3ball]

jordan is better. Its just that offense is more important and harder than defense so he delegate it to pippen.


"Delegating"... I guess that's why the Bulls chose MJ to guard Clyde Drexler in 1992 Finals - because in reality, Pippen was the better defender... :rolleyes:

I guess that's why the Bulls chose MJ to guard Magic in the 1991 Finals for 14 of 20 quarters (70%) and not Pippen... because Pippen was really the better defender... :rolleyes:

I guess that's why the Bulls chose MJ to guard Gary Payton from the tip-off in Game 3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meL62CUehuw&t=0m48s) and Game 5 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFiqeJcgXfg) of the 1996 Finals - MJ was Payton's primary defender for those 2 games, while Pippen guarded Hersey Hawkins.. The Bulls did that because Pippen was really the better defender.. :rolleyes:





Only losers like bran would care about defending.


:biggums: :lebronamazed: :coleman: Oh shit.. you were TROLLING the whole time!!!...

I get it.. I must say, I'm a little embarrassed...

Obviously, there isn't a coach or player alive that would say that MJ, the greatest perimeter defender of all time, delegated defense to others.. only new fans biased by jordan fatigue would be that ignorant.
.