Suicide bombers kill 80 people at a peace rally in Turkey

[Nick Young]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34495161?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central


Two explosions at a peace rally in the Turkish capital Ankara have killed at least 86 people and injured 186, according to officials.

TV footage showed scenes of panic and people lying on the ground covered in blood, amid protest banners.

The blasts took place near the city's central train station as people gathered for a march organised by leftist groups.

The attack is the deadliest of its kind in modern Turkish history.

Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu has announced three days of national mourning, and said there was evidence that two suicide bombers had carried out the attacks.

RIP

[imdaman99]

Terrorists are btch made because they hide away and than blow themselves up without any consequences of them having to fight back. And blowing up innocent people? What goes on in their minds? Fckin scum attention whores. Their '72 virgins' will all be fat star wars fans.

RIP, innocent blood should NEVER be spilled.

[LJJ]

Horrific as it is, it's not surprising to see attacks like this on government opposition in Turkey. Ever since Erdogan emasculated the secular, military power in Turkey they've been moving closer and closer to becoming a terrorist state.

[BigNBAfan]

That's unfortunate, i was planning on going to Istanbul sometime next year.

[Patrick Chewing]

Senseless death.

[stalkerforlife]

We'll all be in paradise one day.

This life is pain and agony for most, even the killers.

I have sympathy for all.

[Hit_Em]

We'll all be in paradise one day.

This life is pain and agony for most, even the killers.

I have sympathy for all.
bless your heart :applause:

[nathanjizzle]

evil is apparent.

[Nick Young]

That's unfortunate, i was planning on going to Istanbul sometime next year.
It's a nice city with some of the most beautiful buildings in the world, but the people there are probably among the most racist on the planet, and also the guy in charge of Turkey is a pro-fundamentalist dick who is actively aiding ISIS. So be careful.

[StephHamann]

It's a nice city with some of the most beautiful buildings in the world, but the people there are probably among the most racist on the planet, and also the guy in charge of Turkey is a pro-fundamentalist dick who is actively aiding ISIS. So be careful.

And bombing the peaceful opposition like today

[Nick Young]

And bombing the peaceful opposition like today
Yep. Erdogan bombed his own people and now is going to blame the Kurds for it. The Turks are f*cked. There is no way these upcoming elections are going be fair. And we call them "allies":facepalm

[BasedTom]

Yep. Erdogan bombed his own people and now is going to blame the Kurds for it. The Turks are f*cked. There is no way these upcoming elections are going be fair. And we call them "allies":facepalm
how does that make any sense whatsoever?

[NumberSix]

It's a nice city with some of the most beautiful buildings in the world, but the people there are probably among the most racist on the planet, and also the guy in charge of Turkey is a pro-fundamentalist dick who is actively aiding ISIS. So be careful.
You might call me crazy for saying this, but........ Don't be super shocked if Putin/Russia decides to annex Istanbul and changes it back to Constantinople.

Remember two historical facts....

1. There's a long history of war between the Russian empire and the ottoman caliphate. Putin is clearly steering Russia towards imperialism and Erdogan is steadily re-Ottomanizing Turkey.

2. Russia is an Eastern Orthodox country with the largest Eastern Orthodox population in the world. Constantinople is like the Rome/Vatican of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

[LJJ]

how does that make any sense whatsoever?

While I don't think Erdogan is in the business of organizing suicide bombers, it's pretty fishy no?

If we look around the world, minority anti-government protesters are generally pretty low on the list as targets for terrorist groups. Like what does it even accomplish? Terrorist aim to decrease stability and increase unrest, not improve and empower the status quo.

Turkey however is a nation that has been found to aid terrorist organisations like Al Nusra and IS in recent times, and has been steadily implement Islamist and fascist policies. Turkey has been cracking down extremely hard on any anti-government, anti-Islamist noise these past years. And in Turkey apparently the terrorists somehow target insignificant minority groups who protest against the government.

[LJJ]

You might call me crazy for saying this, but........ Don't be super shocked if Putin/Russia decides to annex Istanbul and changes it back to Constantinople.

Remember two historical facts....

1. There's a long history of the Russian empire fighting the ottoman caliphate. Putin is clearly steering Russia towards imperialism and Erdogan is steadily re-Ottomanizing Turkey.

2. Russia is an Eastern Orthodox country with the largest Eastern Orthodox population in the world. Constantinople is like the Rome/Vatican of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Turkey is way too big for that.

Russia took Crimea because it was a Russian place filled with Russians, the Ukrainians have been "lending" Crimea to Russia ever since the nation has existed and it has de facto been a part of Russia since centuries ago.

Istanbul? It's a city of 15 million people and you can basically count the number of Russians who are settled there on one hand. A member of NATO. Yes you are crazy if you think Russia is ever going to attack Turkey for annexation purposes.

[NumberSix]

Turkey is way too big for that.

Russia took Crimea because it was a Russian place filled with Russians, the Ukrainians have been "lending" Crimea to Russia ever since the nation has existed and it has de facto been a part of Russia since centuries ago.

Istanbul? It's a city of 15 million people and you can basically count the number of Russians who are settled there on one hand. A member of NATO. Yes you are crazy if you think Russia is ever going to attack Turkey for annexation purposes.
And it's just a coincidence that Putin is taking control of Syria? He just happens to be killing off all the Sunni rebel groups in a country that shares a border with Turkey?

You know what Putin publicly said about Kazakhstan about a year ago? A reporter asked him a question about Kazakhstan and Putin's response was "is it really Kazakhstan".

This dude's intentions are clear. He wants to conquer land.

You might have Obama syndrome. You don't think something is possible until it happens. Obama thought the idea of ISIS taking over land was ridiculous. Today's world is no different than the past. All of history is the conquest of land. That's not over. The current borders aren't going to be there forever.

[BasedTom]

While I don't think Erdogan is in the business of organizing suicide bombers, it's pretty fishy no?

If we look around the world, minority anti-government protesters are generally pretty low on the list as targets for terrorist groups. Like what does it even accomplish? Terrorist aim to decrease stability and increase unrest, not improve and empower the status quo.

Turkey however is a nation that has been found to aid terrorist organisations like Al Nusra and IS in recent times, and has been steadily implement Islamist and fascist policies. Turkey has been cracking down extremely hard on any anti-government, anti-Islamist noise these past years. And in Turkey apparently the terrorists somehow target insignificant minority groups who protest against the government.
Still, it's in the Turkish capital with no doubt a heavy amount of collateral damage for both the Turks and the Kurds. (let's not forget that the kurds have their own sketchy violent groups that slaughter villages and towns- remember in their mind they are fighting a revolution for independence). If Ergodan wanted to end the protest, he could have sent in riot police as he has done in the past...instead of risking the possibility of say a whistleblower exposing him killing his own people and becoming essentially the next Assad himself. It just doesn't seem like a reasonable course of action.

IS makes the most sense to me as the perpetrator because suicide bombing is nothing new to islamic extremism, it only takes 2 random operatives (or could have been people doing it against their will) that would likely not get traced back to them, and if so, then so what? And the fact that they would lose none of their own, all the while destabilising a potential dialogue for peace between the Kurds and the Turks, which would make their own days all but numbered. And the thing to think about is that they would perhaps have the capabilities of pulling this off in Western Countries sometime in the future.

I don't think Assad or Putin have anything to do with this either. Regardless of how you feel about the various factions involve, it seems like taking out the IS should be the main priority. But of course, the same powers in the region aren't about to make themselves vulnerable to their rivals in doing so, so it's a tricky situation.

[Nick Young]

how does that make any sense whatsoever?
Elections are coming up. The attack took place near the government buildings. Erdogan will attempt to victimize himself to drum up sympathy and rally the nationalist anti-kurd voters. He has successfully done this same thing before in the past.

IS doesn't have to fear peace between the Turks and the Kurds. The Turkish government is actively supporting IS while actively attacking the Kurds. Turkey is clearly on IS's side here.

[BasedTom]

Elections are coming up. The attack took place near the government buildings. Erdogan will attempt to victimize himself to drum up sympathy and rally the nationalist anti-kurd voters. He has successfully done this same thing before.
The thing is that he likely doesn't even need to do this. At every juncture he's been successful in his political goals, and by taking a hardline stance against the Kurds has only increased his popularity.

with a false flag attack, there is a huge risk of someone spilling the beans, and I doubt Ergodan's administration has that level of loyalty within it.

This attack hurts both the Kurds and the Turks and helps ISIS.

[zoom17]

And it's just a coincidence that Putin is taking control of Syria? He just happens to be killing off all the Sunni rebel groups in a country that shares a border with Turkey?

You know what Putin publicly said about Kazakhstan about a year ago? A reporter asked him a question about Kazakhstan and Putin's response was "is it really Kazakhstan".

This dude's intentions are clear. He wants to conquer land.

You might have Obama syndrome. You don't think something is possible until it happens. Obama thought the idea of ISIS taking over land was ridiculous. Today's world is no different than the past. All of history is the conquest of land. That's not over. The current borders aren't going to be there forever.

A weakened Syria is much different than invading and taking over a NATO country. Do you really think Putin wants to take Istanbul and risk war with NATO? That's a big stretch.

[LJJ]

And it's just a coincidence that Putin is taking control of Syria? He just happens to be killing off all the Sunni rebel groups in a country that shares a border with Turkey?

You know what Putin publicly said about Kazakhstan about a year ago? A reporter asked him a question about Kazakhstan and Putin's response was "is it really Kazakhstan".

This dude's intentions are clear. He wants to conquer land.

You might have Obama syndrome. You don't think something is possible until it happens. Obama thought the idea of ISIS taking over land was ridiculous. Today's world is no different than the past. All of history is the conquest of land. That's not over. The current borders aren't going to be there forever.

Putin wouldn't be in Syria at all if it wasn't for Russia's enemies cooking up a huge civil war there.

I don't disagree it's all a geopolitical game. Assad being Russia's ally is for sure the primary reason why the US stirred up so much shit in Syria. And the same with Ukraine, nothing would be going on there if it wasn't for Europe and the US meddling trying to start a fire. The cold war is back.

That doesn't change that it's in no way a realistic goal for Russia to annex Turkey. Might as well say that Russia annexed Crimea to try and get East-Germany back. It's ridiculous. Turkey is not suitable for annexation whatsoever.

[Nick Young]

The thing is that he likely doesn't even need to do this. At every juncture he's been successful in his political goals, and by taking a hardline stance against the Kurds has only increased his popularity.

with a false flag attack, there is a huge risk of someone spilling the beans, and I doubt Ergodan's administration has that level of loyalty within it.

This attack hurts both the Kurds and the Turks and helps ISIS.
Ding ding ding. Erdogan is trying to turn Turkey in to a fundamentalist Islamic state. He likes ISIS and is actively working to help them succeed in Syria and Kurdistan, by providing them with both funding and military support.

[BasedTom]

Elections are coming up. The attack took place near the government buildings. Erdogan will attempt to victimize himself to drum up sympathy and rally the nationalist anti-kurd voters. He has successfully done this same thing before in the past.

IS doesn't have to fear peace between the Turks and the Kurds. The Turkish government is actively supporting IS while actively attacking the Kurds. Turkey is clearly on IS's side here.
Perhaps because the Kurds in their own soil have had an independence campaign long before IS was a thing? It's like the IRA...naturally they would oppose them for threatening the nation, right or wrong.

The Kurds haven't yet won an independent state because in every single instance going back to the Babylonian Empire, they sought independence by betraying their host country to foreign invaders, be it Muslims, Romans, Persians, Americans, Israelis, etc. Kinda like how jews have that stereotypical track record of stab anyone in the back if it served their self interests. This is why behind the jews, they are pretty much hated by every country in the Middle East that has them as a minority in their country. If and when the day comes when it becomes beneficial for them to turn on Americans, guess what will happen?

note that turkey has historically been alright with jews and kurds outside of their own national boundaries, which is more than you can usually expect in the region's politics. The US allying with Turkey for as many decades as it has is because they are the closest to being moderates and westernised, along with Israel. The history of standing against Russia, as well as their strategic position and power projection in the region naturally helps too. Yes they do shady shit (israel too) but uncle sam is willing to look past that.

that's why the kurds are kind of in a limbo state right now. They have their own agenda which naturally conflicts with a historical US ally. A temporary peace between the kurds and turks would greatly help the anti-ISIS fight and US effort

[StephHamann]

You might call me crazy for saying this, but........ Don't be super shocked if Putin/Russia decides to annex Istanbul and changes it back to Constantinople.

Remember two historical facts....

1. There's a long history of war between the Russian empire and the ottoman caliphate. Putin is clearly steering Russia towards imperialism and Erdogan is steadily re-Ottomanizing Turkey.

2. Russia is an Eastern Orthodox country with the largest Eastern Orthodox population in the world. Constantinople is like the Rome/Vatican of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Stop reading Tom Clancy bro

[BasedTom]

Ding ding ding. Erdogan is trying to turn Turkey in to a fundamentalist Islamic state. He likes ISIS and is actively working to help them succeed in Syria and Kurdistan, by providing them with both funding and military support.
He likes that they kill Kurds, who in turkish eyes, are the more immediate and scary threat. Other than that, ISIS has a worldwide extremist caliphate as their public mission statement, which includes turkey and even parts of europe...ISIS is too far for even the Taliban, you're out of your mind if you think Ergodan- or any leader in the region for that matter- is willing to accept ISIS as a long term fixture in the region.

ISIS only exists because of the power vacuum and overall state of chaos. If Syria and Iraq had their shit together, they would be stamped out, painfully and with heavy costs perhaps, but still wiped out eventually ...they have no true allies.

The fact that IS is all but guaranteed to be destroyed eventually is why Assad and the lot are more worried by what's on their doorstep. For the Kurds that is ISIS. But for Assad/FSA, the more pressing existential threat is the other.

[Nick Young]

The Kurds haven't yet won an independent state because in every single instance going back to the Babylonian Empire, they sought independence by betraying their host country to foreign invaders, be it Muslims, Romans, Persians, Americans, Israelis, etc. Kinda like how jews have that stereotypical track record of stab anyone in the back if it served their self interests. This is why behind the jews, they are pretty much hated by every country in the Middle East that has them as a minority in their country. If and when the day comes when it becomes beneficial for them to turn on Americans, guess what will happen?

If these two groups weren't constantly shitted on and genocided against by every single group in power, they would have no reason to backstab those countries.

You can't repeatedly slap your friend in the face and put him down and then expect him to stand tall for you when shit gets real.

[BasedTom]

If these two groups weren't constantly shitted on and genocided against by every single group in power, they would have no reason to backstab those countries.

You can't repeatedly slap your friend in the face and put him down and then expect him to stand tall for you when shit gets real.
Then it's a vicious cycle which repeats itself for eternity.

A mutual enemy and call for peace could end that cycle, even for a temporary fragile peace, but guess who benefits most from everybody fighting each other...ISIS.

[ThePhantomCreep]

You might call me crazy for saying this, but........ Don't be super shocked if Putin/Russia decides to annex Istanbul and changes it back to Constantinople.

Remember two historical facts....

1. There's a long history of war between the Russian empire and the ottoman caliphate. Putin is clearly steering Russia towards imperialism and Erdogan is steadily re-Ottomanizing Turkey.

2. Russia is an Eastern Orthodox country with the largest Eastern Orthodox population in the world. Constantinople is like the Rome/Vatican of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Not a chance.

Turkey is a member of NATO. If Russia tries anything with them, then they're at war.

Putin enjoys pulling on the Eagle's feathers, but that's like trying to cut off its wing.

[Nick Young]

Putin is smart. Unlike Obama, he will not charge head first in to a losing battle. He only fights battles that he's already won.

[Nick Young]

Then it's a vicious cycle which repeats itself for eternity.

A mutual enemy and call for peace could end that cycle, even for a temporary fragile peace, but guess who benefits most from everybody fighting each other...ISIS.
Exactly. That's what Erdogan wants. He is a fundamentalist nutcase, and wants to turn Turkey in to an Islamic fundamentalist nation.

[NumberSix]

Putin wouldn't be in Syria at all if it wasn't for Russia's enemies cooking up a huge civil war there.

I don't disagree it's all a geopolitical game. Assad being Russia's ally is for sure the primary reason why the US stirred up so much shit in Syria. And the same with Ukraine, nothing would be going on there if it wasn't for Europe and the US meddling trying to start a fire. The cold war is back.

That doesn't change that it's in no way a realistic goal for Russia to annex Turkey. Might as well say that Russia annexed Crimea to try and get East-Germany back. It's ridiculous. Turkey is not suitable for annexation whatsoever.
Hold on. I didn't say anything about annexing Turkey. I'm simply talking about a small little piece of land that isn't even attached to the rest of turkey. It is a little bit on land on the tip of Greece. It's not attached to the rest of Turkey. Which by the way, Greece has been floating the idea of potentially leaving the EU and aligning with Russia.

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but it's certainly within the realm of possibility.

[ThePhantomCreep]

Putin is smart. Unlike Obama, he will not charge head first in to a losing battle. He only fights battles that he's already won.

Yes, and taking Obama head-on is one of those losing battles. Glad we agree on that.

Putin, like conservatives who drink his bathwater, are only good for propaganda: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/10/10/world/middleeast/hussein-hamedani-iran-general-killed-in-syria.html?_r=0&referer=https://www.google.com/

[BasedTom]

Exactly. That's what Erdogan wants. He is a fundamentalist nutcase, and wants to turn Turkey in to an Islamic fundamentalist nation.
uh no, you're making a big leap there. US has armed sketchy people in the past, that doesn't mean that we've wanted Noriega taking over and running the US. Their interests don't 100% align, really aside from killing kurds they have nothing in common.

This may be too simplified, but ergodan = turkey's putin. He wants a shift towards the old ottoman model, and wants turkey to be more of a global power. The former approach of trying to be welcomed into the fold of Europe didn't work out, so now they have their focus on Asia. The Kurds are threat #1 to that agenda.

if you want to play that game, then I could present to you that Israel has the most to gain from ISIS's existence and the Syrian War, since after all, tons of muslims are killing each other, the region and natural competitors are destabilising, and the mass migrants are all heading west instead of into Israel. All while not a single drop of Israeli blood is spilled, nor does anyone bat an eye or view them with suspicion for increasing their own power projection over time.

[LJJ]

Hold on. I didn't say anything about annexing Turkey. I'm simply talking about a small little piece of land that isn't even attached to the rest of turkey. It is a little bit on land on the tip of Greece. It's not attached to the rest of Turkey. Which by the way, Greece has been floating the idea of potentially leaving the EU and aligning with Russia.

I'm not saying it's going to happen, but it's certainly within the realm of possibility.

You are talking about the biggest city in Europe. Believe what you will, but anyone with common sense would call you crazy over believing that.

[NumberSix]

Yes, and taking Obama head-on is one of those losing battles. Glad we agree on that.

Putin, like conservatives who drink his bathwater, is only good for propaganda: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/10/10/world/middleeast/hussein-hamedani-iran-general-killed-in-syria.html?_r=0&referer=https://www.google.com/
You don't pay much attention to the news, huh?

The Russians told the the Americans to get out of syrian airspace. The Russians have been intercepting Americans drones in the region. The Russians have been bombing the rebels that America has been arming and training. Obama's response was to no longer arm or train the rebels.

Putin has completely and utterly bitch slapped Obama. There is no head on with Obama. There's Putin saying "get the fcuk outta here" and Obama saying "yes sir. Please to hurt me." Obama is not going to do ANYTHING. he's going to leave it for the next president.

[NumberSix]

You are talking about the biggest city in Europe. Believe what you will, but anyone with common sense would call you crazy over believing that.
Right. And the Jews will never take Jerusalem.

Turkey has been openly siding with ISIS. Nobody is going to help turkey. Wake up man. Turkey is a country that is only 98 years old. Borders change. Given the right circumstances, turkey will loses Istanbul, lose a significant portion of land to a new Kurdish state and potentially lose land with significant Armenian populations.

[ThePhantomCreep]

You don't pay much attention to the news, huh?

The Russians told the the Americans to get out of syrian airspace. The Russians have been intercepting Americans drones in the region. The Russians have been bombing the rebels that America has been arming and training. Obama's response was to no longer arm or train the rebels.

Putin has completely and utterly bitch slapped Obama. There is no head on with Obama. There's Putin saying "get the fcuk outta here" and Obama saying "yes sir. Please to hurt me." Obama is not going to do ANYTHING. he's going to leave it for the next president.

How does that bathwater taste?

Meanwhile in real news, sanctions have crippled the Russian economy so much, the Kremlin is putting sanctions relief at the forefront of next year's policy agenda. Their economy is in deep shit.

Maybe Putin will put out another workout video to appease his people (and dopey right-wingers).

[NumberSix]

How does that bathwater taste?

Meanwhile in real news, sanctions have crippled the Russian economy so much, the Kremlin is putting sanctions relief at the forefront of next year's policy agenda. Their economy is in deep shit.

Maybe Putin will put out another workout video to appease his people (and dopey right-wingers).
It's hilarious how you think that us criticizing Obama for not standing up to Putin somehow makes you think we like Putin. If we liked Putin, we would be glad that Obama isn't opposing him.

[9erempiree]

Putin has been great against ISIS.

[BasedTom]

Right. And the Jews will never take Jerusalem.

Turkey has been openly siding with ISIS. Nobody is going to help turkey. Wake up man. Turkey is a country that is only 98 years old. Borders change. Given the right circumstances, turkey will loses Istanbul, lose a significant portion of land to a new Kurdish state and potentially lose land with significant Armenian populations.
You seem to have zero faith in the US effort or NATO

Putin is trying to get while he can while Obama is in office, but it won't last. Not to mention that across Europe people are becoming more disillusioned with the current leftist paradigm, and you have more right wing leaders and nationalist factions gaining popularity.

[BasedTom]

For Putin to take Istanbul, it would take a complete collapse of NATO/the US leadership

which I suppose could theoretically happen if Hillary is in office, but there's no way it would happen before 2017

Constantinople isn't even that important to eastern orthodoxy to warrant risking ww3. The structure isn't quite like catholicism with the vatican- there is more than 1 figure. Their church has done just fine running for the 500+ or whatever years it has been since the turks took Constantinople.

[Nick Young]

Yes, and taking Obama head-on is one of those losing battles. Glad we agree on that.

Putin, like conservatives who drink his bathwater, are only good for propaganda: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/10/10/world/middleeast/hussein-hamedani-iran-general-killed-in-syria.html?_r=0&referer=https://www.google.com/
lol. He has been taking Obama on with less than half the resources Obama has and cleanly winning while taking minimal losses of his own.

Politically, Putin has been winning battles vs Obama for a long time. But you are right, he is not stupid enough to ever enter in to combat directly vs US troops.

He is winning battles without having to fight them. If only USA had a proper politician in charge, and not just a motivational speaker who can't back up what he says.

[Nick Young]

uh no, you're making a big leap there. US has armed sketchy people in the past, that doesn't mean that we've wanted Noriega taking over and running the US. Their interests don't 100% align, really aside from killing kurds they have nothing in common.

This may be too simplified, but ergodan = turkey's putin. He wants a shift towards the old ottoman model, and wants turkey to be more of a global power. The former approach of trying to be welcomed into the fold of Europe didn't work out, so now they have their focus on Asia. The Kurds are threat #1 to that agenda.

if you want to play that game, then I could present to you that Israel has the most to gain from ISIS's existence and the Syrian War, since after all, tons of muslims are killing each other, the region and natural competitors are destabilising, and the mass migrants are all heading west instead of into Israel. All while not a single drop of Israeli blood is spilled, nor does anyone bat an eye or view them with suspicion for increasing their own power projection over time.
......What do you expect Israel to do? Join in? It's Israel's job to save Syria, a hostile nation with a long and violent history against the state of Israel? So in your mind Israel are being malicious by sitting back and not going to war? When Israel go to war they are demonized. When they don't go to war, they are demonized.:roll:

[Nick Young]

You don't pay much attention to the news, huh?

The Russians told the the Americans to get out of syrian airspace. The Russians have been intercepting Americans drones in the region. The Russians have been bombing the rebels that America has been arming and training. Obama's response was to no longer arm or train the rebels.

Putin has completely and utterly bitch slapped Obama. There is no head on with Obama. There's Putin saying "get the fcuk outta here" and Obama saying "yes sir. Please to hurt me." Obama is not going to do ANYTHING. he's going to leave it for the next president.
Story of his presidency:facepalm

[BasedTom]

......What do you expect Turkey to do? Join in? It's Turkey's job to save the Kurds, a hostile group with a long and violent history against the state of Turkey? So in your mind Turkey are being malicious by sitting back and not going to war with IS?
see how that works

there are no "good guys" or "bad guys" something which probably shatters the thought process of the average American on the couch such as you. Only goals and objectives and the will to carry them out. Even a hyper-moralist liberal like Obama has blood on his hands.

like it or not, Turkey is a US ally and has been since the Cold War. A Kurdish state probably isn't in the cards, barring some serious Yalta like peace conference in the aftermath of the war, and if the existence of one benefits the ones drawing the borders.

[Nick Young]

see how that works

there are no "good guys" or "bad guys" something which probably shatters the thought process of the average American on the couch such as you. Only goals and objectives and the will to carry them out.

like it or not, Turkey is a US ally and has been since the Cold War. A Kurdish state probably isn't in the cards, barring some serious Yalta like peace conference in the aftermath of the war, and if the existence of one benefits the ones drawing the borders.
The difference here is, Turkey IS actively aiding IS, by providing them with weapons, funding, safe passage and strategic intelligence. They are not just sitting back. They are directly contributing to the IS war effort,.

[BasedTom]

The difference here is, Turkey IS actively aiding IS, by providing them with weapons, funding, safe passage and strategic intelligence. They are not just sitting back. They are directly contributing to the IS war effort,.
And Muslims with their own agenda will tell you that IS was created by Israel? You can never really 100% know when it comes to these things. :confusedshrug:

But that isn't even the crux of the issue. While you fling shit at Russia, Turkey, Assad, and the Kurds, all you do is extend ISIS's lifespan. Like I said, this is what they want.

[NumberSix]

For Putin to take Istanbul, it would take a complete collapse of NATO/the US leadership

which I suppose could theoretically happen if Hillary is in office, but there's no way it would happen before 2017

Constantinople isn't even that important to eastern orthodoxy to warrant risking ww3. The structure isn't quite like catholicism with the vatican- there is more than 1 figure. Their church has done just fine running for the 500+ or whatever years it has been since the turks took Constantinople.
Do you really think the USA would start a war with Russia just for the sake of letting Turkey keep a tiny piece of greek land?

The United States had a deal with Ukraine. The deal was if Ukraine gives up their nukes, the USA will protect them. How did that turn out.

You people really do live in a pampered first world bubble if you think its inconceivable for 1 country with clearly imperial intentions take grab some land from another country. Especially if that country is supporting ISIS, which Russia is currently is using as a pretext to establish power in the Middle East.

[Nick Young]

And Muslims with their own agenda will tell you that IS was created by Israel? You can never really 100% know when it comes to these things. :confusedshrug:

But that isn't even the crux of the issue. While you fling shit at Russia, Turkey, Assad, and the Kurds, all you do is extend ISIS's lifespan. Like I said, this is what they want.
Yes I understand this. The IS leadership are not delusional enough to believe an Islamic Caliphate can be achieved. They are trying to draw the West in to a war, so USA and friends will waste their resources in a fruitless effort.

[BasedTom]

Do you really think the USA would start a war with Russia just for the sake of letting Turkey keep a tiny piece of greek land?

The United States had a deal with Ukraine. The deal was if Ukraine gives up their nukes, the USA will protect them. How did that turn out.
lol, that tiny piece is more valuable than you seem to think...Just look at a map and you can obviously see it's economic and geopolitical value.

Ukraine is not a NATO member, Turkey is. If you can't see the difference, then you're not thinking it through.

Putin antagonises the West where he can get away with it. He can violate airspace in Syria, in Finland and Sweden (but not without heavy attention), but proper NATO countries like Poland and Germany are off limits. Taking Crimea has put him under heavy fire, even among some of his supporters...These things do not happen under a blank state, people see what they are dealing with as time goes on. Which is perhaps the one downside to Putin's leadership being a fixture and constant. Weak leadership in the US can be fixed- and we'll have George Washington's precedent to thank for that.

[NumberSix]

lol, that tiny piece is more valuable than you seem to think...Just look at a map and you can obviously see it's economic and geopolitical value.

Ukraine is not a NATO member, Turkey is. If you can't see the difference, then you're not thinking it through.

Putin antagonises the West where he can get away with it. He can violate airspace in Syria, in Finland and Sweden (but not without heavy attention), but proper NATO countries like Poland and Germany are off limits. Taking Crimea has put him under heavy fire, even among some of his supporters...These things do not happen under a blank state, people see what they are dealing with as time goes on. Which is perhaps the one downside to Putin's leadership being a fixture and constant. Weak leadership in the US can be fixed- and we'll have George Washington's precedent to thank for that.
We'll see.

The first step will be Russia arming the Kurds. The second step will be Russia testing it's boundaries by doing strikes just across the Syrian/Turkish border by claiming the rebels where there or keeping their weapons there or something. Then you'll hear stories about a few turks getting killed here and there because Kurds needing to be defended. then the rhetoric will ramp up about the Turkish regime supporting ISIS (because they do). Don't be shocked if Turkey loses its NATO membership and Erdogan becomes the new Assad.

[Nick Young]

Erdogan is 100x worse than Assad.

[BasedTom]

Erdogan is 100x worse than Assad.
Considering how Assad's country is in a completely fragmented, war-torn state, I don't see how you can make that claim.

If you're talking about morals, idk how you can say that either unless you have kurdish blood and therefore a bias that might prevent you from seeing things objectively

[Nick Young]

Considering how Assad's country is in a completely fragmented, war-torn state, I don't see how you can make that claim.

If you're talking about morals, idk how you can say that either unless you have kurdish blood and therefore a bias that might prevent you from seeing things objectively
If the US wanted Turkey to be fragmented, and war-torn, it would be. The people of Syria were happy. There was no civil war there until Obama armed and trained a bunch of insane fringe terrorist groups.

[BasedTom]

If the US wanted Turkey to be fragmented, and war-torn, it would be.
That line of reasoning could be used for any country, couldn't it?

Unless you think that the US is the guiding hand puppeteering every single faction that is up against Assad, then I'm not sure how you can 100% absolve Assad of blame in his country's current situation.