Who's been luckier throughout their career? Kobe or Duncan?

[dubeta]

Between the two, who's been luckier in terms of getting drafted into a quality front office, with great teammates, coaches etc



Remember this is in terms of their entire career teammates, coaches, personal etc. Overall help throughout their careers.

[Dr Hawk]

Duncan.

[StephHamann]

Shaq was the luckiest, that Magic team was good enough for a dynasty but he ****ed it up.

Just sayin

[SouBeachTalents]

In terms of top 10 all time, Russell was the luckiest, while Hakeem had the least amount of luck

[ISHGoat]

Kobe was the clear sidekick for 3, arguably 4 championships. When he want the sidekick and did not have a dominant big man, he missed the playoffs. Did Duncan ever miss the playoffs? Did Duncan ever get swept in the first round? Did Duncan ever need a dominant teammate to carry him?

[dubeta]

In terms of top 10 all time, Russell was the luckiest, while Hakeem had the least amount of luck

Less luck than LeBron?? :oldlol:


Lol LeBron would kill to play with Prime Barkley and Prime Drexler

[DMAVS41]

tough call...in terms of winning titles....Kobe was luckier...in terms of having a stable franchise and remaining good to great consistently....Duncan was luckier.

[catch24]

They're both pretty lucky

But you need a bit of luck to be successful.

Without team achievements, they're still top 2-3 ALL TIME at their respective positions.

[kennethgriffin]

whos more lucky?



98 popovich/robinson 22/11/3 avrey/vinny/elliott/jackson/person
99 popovich/robinson 16/10/3 avrey/elliott/ellie/jackson/kerr/kersey/daniels
00 popovich/robinson 18/10/2 avery/ellie/porter/jackson/rose/daniels/elliott
01 popovich/robinson 15/9/2 anderson/daniels/elliott/rose/porter/avery/ferry
02 popovich/robinson 13/8/2 parker/smith/rose/daniels/bowen/porter/jackson
03 popovich/parker 15/5/3 robinson/ginobili/jackson/rose/bowen/smith/willis
04 popovich/parker 15/6/3 ginobili/hedo/rasho/rose/bowen/horry/mercer
05 popovich/parker 17/6/4 ginobili/glen/bruce/brent/rose/nazr/horry/beno
06 popovich/parker 19/6/3 ginobili/finley/bowen/nazr/brent/exel/horry/beno
07 popovich/parker 19/6/3 ginobili/finley/barry/white/bowen/horry/beno
08 popovich/parker 19/6/3 ginobili/finley/barry/bowen/oberto/bonner/vaughn
09 popovich/parker 22/7/3 ginobili/mason/gooden/finley/hill/bonner/bowen
10 popovich/parker 16/6/3 ginobili/hill/jefferson/blair/mason/mcdeyes/finley
11 popovich/parker 18/7/3 ginobili/hill/jefferson/neal/blair/mcdeyes/green
12 popovich/parker 18/8/3 ginobili/mills/neal/blair/splitter/jefferson/green
13 popovich/parker 20/8/3 Leonard/ginobili/green/splitter/neal/jackson/diaw
14 popovich/parker 17/6/2 Leonard/ginobili/marco/mills/diaw/green/splitter
15 popovich/parker 15/5/2 Leonard/ginobili/green/marco/diaw/splitter/mills

always

1. legendary coach
2. legendary team mate
3. stacked roster


5 titles/6 finals




while kobe bryant


1997 - no legendary coach
1998 - no legendary coach
1999 - no legendary coach
2000 ( had all 3 )
2001 - no stacked roster
2002 - no stacked roster
2003 - no stacked roster
2004 ( had all 3 )
2005 - no legendary coach, no legendary sidekick, no stacked roster
2006 - no legendary sidekick, no stacked roster
2008 - no legendary sidekick, no stacked roster
2009 - no legendary sidekick, no stacked roster
2010 - no legendary sidekick
2011 - no legendary sidekick
2012 - no legendary coach, no legendary sidekick
2013 - no legendary coach, no legendary sidekick
2014 - no legendary coach, no legendary sidekick, no stacked roster
2015 - no legendary coach, no legendary sidekick, no stacked roster

= 5 titles/7 finals






duncan = barely any injuries



kobe = devastating wrist injury 1997 = fracture
kobe = devastating ankle injury 1998 = grade 2 sprain
kobe = devastating hand injury 2000 = fractured metacarpel
kobe = devastating ankle injury 2000 = grade 2 sprain
kobe = devastating ankle injury 2001 = grade 3 sprain
kobe = devastating viral infection 2001 = poisoning
kobe = devastating knee injury 2003 = ligament
kobe = devastating shoulder injury 2003 = ligament
kobe = devastating finger injury = laceration index
kobe = devastating ankle injury 2005 = grade 3 sprain
kobe = devastating knee injury 2007 = knee surgery
kobe = devastating ankle injury 2007 = grade 2 sprain
kobe = devastating hand injury 2007-2010 = Hand injuries
kobe = devastating hand injury 2010 = avulsion fracture index
kobe = devastating ankle injury 2010 = grade 2 sprain
kobe = devastating knee injury 2011 = knee surgery
kobe = devastating ankle injury 2013 = torn achilles tendon
kobe = devastating knee injury 2014 = fractured knee
kobe = devastating shoulder injury 2015 = torn ligament








duncan = flew under the radar his entire career

kobe = public enemy #1, most polarizing player of all time, criticized for everything



kobe has a chance to win mvp in 2003 ( shaq gets injured )

kobe has a chance to win a title in 2003 ( kobe rips shoulder and leg tendons, horry misses every shot he takes including the game winner to swing the series )

kobe has a chance to win a title in 2004 ( malone gets injured and girl accuses kobe of rape causing feud with shaq/break up after season )

kobe has a chance to win mvp in 2006 ( rape backlash causes media to overlook him )

kobe has a chance to win mvp in 2007 ( ditto )

kobe has a chance to win a title in 2008 ( bynum/ariza injured )

kobe has a chance to win mvp in 2009 ( 1 less win than lebron in a conference 10 times more difficult. if the east is competitive kobe gets 10 more wins than LeFree pass )

kobe has a chance to win a title in 2011 ( knee injury/surgery )

kobe has a chance to win a title in 2012 ( chris paul veto, pau injured all year )

kobe has a chance to win a title in 2013 ( jerry buss dies which causes phil to never come back, kobe achilles injury, dwight back problems all year, nash nerve damage )

kobe has a chance to catch kareem for all time points ( achilles/broken leg/torn shoulder )

kobe has a chance to get an allstar big man in the draft ( buss death backlash once again with jim picking a guard with less athleticism than a snail )

:biggums:

[kennethgriffin]

They're both pretty lucky

But you need a bit of luck to be successful.



:biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

[catch24]

:biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

:confusedshrug:

[KG215]

:biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums: :biggums:
Kobe started his career with prime/peak Shaq and got the GOAT coach a few years into his career. Ignore it all you want, but that's pretty damn fortunate and a huge reason Kobe has 5 rings instead of 2.

[Nash]

7 years of prime Shaq..

[JT123]

2 luckiest players of the post Jordan era. Despite Duncan being MUCH better than Kobe, I still have a hard time respecting his accomplishments due to him having a stacked team and GOAT coach literally every year of his career.

[Hey Yo]

I guess you would have to go with Duncan by default.

Kobe wanted it easy, wanted to be on a contender by colluding his way to LA.

[kennethgriffin]

Kobe started his career with prime/peak Shaq and got the GOAT coach a few years into his career. Ignore it all you want, but that's pretty damn fortunate and a huge reason Kobe has 5 rings instead of 2.


i think the negatives vastly outweigh the positives in terms of kobes "luck" throughout his career


plus... nobodies lucky when they themselves must average 25ppg/5rpg/5apg for the 3 playoffs combined. saving the season in 2000 wcf game 7 cause shaq got scared

then saving the finals game 4...

if it was so easy for shaq to win titles... then explain this

_____________________________________


1993 - nick anderson 20ppg
1993 - dennis scott 16ppg
1993 - scott skiles 15ppg

result = missed playoffs

1994 - penny hardaway 16ppg
1994 - nick anderson 16ppg
1994 - dennis scott 13ppg
1994 - scott skiles 10ppg

result = swept first round

1995 - penny hardaway 21ppg
1995 - nick anderson 16ppg
1995 - dennis scott 13ppg
1995 - horace grant 13ppg

result = swept nba finals

1996 - penny hardaway 22ppg
1996 - dennis scott 18ppg
1996 - nick anderson 15ppg
1996 - horace grant 13ppg

result = swept third round

1997 - eddie jones 17ppg
1997 - nick van exel 15ppg
1997 - elden campbell 15ppg
1997 - cedric ceballos 11ppg

result = lost 1-4 first round

1998 - eddie jones 17ppg
1998 - kobe bryant 15ppg
1998 - nick van exel 14ppg
1998 - rick fox 12ppg
1998 - elden campbell 10ppg

result = swept first round

1999 - kobe bryant 20ppg
1999 - glen rice 18ppg
1999 - rick fox 10ppg

result = swept 2nd round

2003 - kobe bryant 30ppg ( injured in playoffs )
2003 - derek fisher 10ppg

result = lost 2-4 in 2nd round

2005 - dwyane wade 24ppg
2005 - eddie jones 13ppg
2005 - damon jones 12ppg
2005 - udonas haslem 11ppg

result = lost 3-4 in third round


2007 - dwyane wade 27ppg
2007 - jason williams 11ppg
2007 - jason kapono 11ppg
2007 - udonas haslem 11ppg

result = swept first round

2008 - amare stoudemire 25ppg
2008 - steve nash 16ppg
2008 - shawn marion 16ppg
2008 - leandro barbosa 16ppg
2008 - grant hill 13ppg
2008 - raja bell 12ppg

result = lost 1-4 first round

2009 - amare stoudemire 21ppg
2009 - jason richardson 16ppg
2009 - steve nash 16ppg
2009 - leandro barbosa 14ppg
2009 - grant hill 12ppg
2009 - matt barnes 10ppg

result = missed playoffs

2010 - lebron james 30ppg
2010 - mo williams 16ppg
2010 - antawn jamison 16ppg

result = lost 2-4 in 2nd round

2011 - paul pierce 19ppg
2011 - ray allen 17ppg
2011 - kevin garnett 15ppg
2011 - glen davis 12ppg
2011 - rajon rondo 11ppg
2011 - jeff green 10ppg

result = lost 1-4 in 2nd round






Fact* when shaq didnt have an elite healthy kobe bryant or dwyane wade. He failed miserably with copious amounts of talent surrounding him

Shaquille o'neal dominated the finals in 2000,2001,2002.. yes

Nobody is arguing that those series could have been salvaged without kobe bean bryant. But in order to even get that far shaq needed kobe for the portlands, sanantonios and sacramentos

In game 7 of the 2000 wcf.. kobe bryabt was the leader in points, assists, rebounds and blocked shots. Perhaps the biggest game of shaqs life was saved by a 21 year old.

Then in the 2000 nba finals. Had kobe not saved the day in game 4

Game 1 - lakers won
Game 2 - lakers won
Game 3 - pacers won
Game 4 - pacers win instead
Game 5 - pacers won


Basically indiana has all the momentum up 3 games to 2 going back to LA for games 6 and 7

Who knows what happens



As for 2001 and 2002. Kobe was as important as any teammate in nba history

But to put one more stamp on the point i'm trying to make. Out of all 2nd leading scorers in championship history. Kobe bryant has the 2 highest scoring averages in the playoffs AND nba finals


Playoffs:

2001 Kobe Bryant 29.4
2002 Kobe Bryant 26.6
1986 Kevin Mchale 24.9
1958 Bob Pettit 24.2
1963 Sam Jones 23.8
1966 John Havlicek 23.6
1972 Jerry West 22.9
2012 Dwyane Wade 22.8
1987 Magic Johnson 21.8
1967 Wilt Chamberlain 21.7
1991 Scottie Pippen 21.6
1985 James Worthy 21.5
1978 Bob Dandridge 21.2
2000 Kobe Bryant 21.1
1957 Bill Sharman 21.1
1976 Dave Cowens 21.0
1979 Dennis Johnson 20.9
2005 Manu Ginobili 20.8
2007 Tony Parker 20.8
1962 Tom Heinsohn 20.7
1968 Sam Jones 20.5
1995 Clyde Drexler 20.5
1974 Dave Cowens 20.5
1982 Kareem Abdul Jabbar 20.4
1980 Jamaal Wilkes 20.3
1956 Neil Johnston 20.3
1993 Scottie Pippen 20.1
1959 Bill Sharman 20.1
2006 Shaquille O'neal 20.0
1988 Magic Johnson 19.9
2010 Pau Gasol 19.6
1992 Scottie Pippen 19.5
1997 Scottie Pippen 19.2
1971 Bob Dandridge 19.2
1961 Bill Russell 19.1
2008 Kevin Garnett 18.8
1983 Andrew Tony 18.8
2015 Klay Thompson 18.6
1965 John Havlicek 18.5
1960 Bill Russell 18.5
2009 Pau Gasol 18.3
1977 Bill Walton 18.2
1990 Joe Dumars 18.2
1989 Joe Dumars 17.6
2011 Jason Terry 17.5
1964 Tom Heinsohn 17.4
1970 Dick Barnett 16.9
1996 Scottie Pippen 16.9
1998 Scottie Pippen 16.8
1969 Sam Jones 16.8
1984 Dennis Johnson 16.6
2004 Chauncey Billups 16.4
2014 Tim Duncan 16.3
1981 Cedric Maxwell 16.1
1973 Earl Monroe 16.1
1952 Jim Pollard 16.1
2013 Dwyane Wade 15.9
1951 Bob Davies 15.9
1999 David Robinson 15.6
1975 Jamaal Wilkes 15.0
2003 Tony Parker 14.7
1953 Jim Pollard 14.3
1994 Vernon Maxwell 13.8
1955 Red Kerr 13.8
1950 Vern Mikkelsen 13.0
1954 Jim Pollard 12.3




Finals:

2002 Kobe Bryant 26.8
2001 Kobe bryant 24.6
1958 Bob Pettit 24.0 ( Cliff Hagan 25.3, playoffs and finals leader )
1986 Larry Bird 24.0 ( Mchale 25.8ppg )
1985 James Worthy 23.7
1971 Oscar Robertson 23.5
1963 Tom Heinsohn 23.3 ( Jones 24.6 )
1966 Sam Jones 22.9
1974 Dave Cowens 22.7
1979 Dennis Johnson 22.6 ( Gus Williams 29.0ppg finals, playoffs leader too..wtf? )
2012 Dwyane Wade 22.6
1959 Tie* Sharman/Ramsay 22.5 ( heinsohn 24.2 )
1962 Sam Jones 22.1 ( russell 22.8 )
1983 Andrew Tony 22.0 ( Julius Erving 3rd option in playoffs and finals )
1957 Bill Sharman 21.8 ( Heinsohn 24.0 )
1987 Kareem Abdul Jabbar 21.7
1980 Magic Johnson 21.5
1995 Clyde Drexler 21.5
1989 Isiah Thomas 21.3
1993 Scottie Pippen 21.2
1988 Magic Johnson 21.1
1968 Bailey Howell 21.0
2004 Chauncey Billups 21.0 (Rip playoff and finals leader. robbed )
1992 Scottie Pippen 20.8
1991 Scottie Pippen 20.8
1990 Joe Dumars 20.6
1976 Dave Cowens 20.5
1978 Bob Dandridge 20.4
2008 Ray Allen 20.3
1997 Scottie Pippen 20.0
1972 Jerry West 19.8
2013 Dwyane Wade 19.6
2005 Manu Ginobili 18.7
1969 Sam Jones 18.7
1970 Dick Barnett 18.6
2010 Pau Gasol 18.6
2009 Pau Gasol 18.6
1977 Bill Walton 18.5
1960 Frank Ramsay 18.4 ( Heinsohn 22.4 )
1964 John Havlicek 18.4
2007 Tim Duncan 18.3
1965 John Havlicek 18.2
2011 Jason Terry 18.0
1982 Kareem Abdul Jabbar 18.0
2014 Kawhi Leonard 17.8
1967 Wilt Chamberlain 17.7 ( Hal Greer 26.0ppg. would have been mvp )
1961 Bill Russell 17.6 ( heinsohn 22.0 )
1984 Dennis Johnson 17.6
1951 Bob Davies 17.0
1999 David Robinson 16.6
1973 Willis Reed 16.4
1952 Jim Pollard 16.4
2015 Andre Iguodala 16.3
1998 Scottie Pippen 15.7
1996 Scottie Pippen 15.7
2000 Kobe Bryant 15.6 ( *19.0 minus the 2 point injury game )
1981 Larry Bird 15.3 ( ....................wtf? )
1953 Jim Pollard 14.4
2003 Tony Parker 14.0
2006 Antoine Walker 13.8 ( to my surprise Shaq only averaged 13.7 )
1956 Neil Johnston 13.6 ( Arizin 27.6 )
1950 Jim Pollard 13.6 ( mikan 32.1 )
1994 Vernon Maxwell 13.4




In the end. Shaq was a beast. But he probably had the most help that any guy ever had in nba history in terms of a single teammate... not saying kobe didnt either. But it was a 2 man team. And both needed each other

[Quickening]

Kobe has been spoilt throughout his life, from being born into a wealthy family to getting drafted to the best franchise with the most dominant player ever. Where Duncan embraced and gave back to his franchise, Kobe has become an ever growing cancer which has brought the Lakers to its knees.:(

[kennethgriffin]

Kobe has been spoilt throughout his life, from being born into a wealthy family to getting drafted to the best franchise with the most dominant player ever. Where Duncan embraced and gave back to his franchise, Kobe has become an ever growing cancer which has brought the Lakers to its knees.:(


whos the hardest working athlete in nba history


meanwhile other dudes are like "i could use another 2 months off"

[Hey Yo]

Then in the 2000 nba finals. Had kobe not saved the day in game 4
Shaq fouled out with 2:30 left in OT. Kobe scored 4pts after that....a put-back and 2 FT's

[Young X]

Duncan is luckier.

In every single year of his career he was surrounded by great coaching and either solid (at worst) to all time great (at best) teammates.

He never had to struggle carrying bad supporting casts like Kobe did from '05-'07 or like Hakeem did for half of his career or like how KG did in Minnesota or like how Barkley in Philly, or MJ did in the 80's, etc.

BOTH of these guys were very fortunate to play for the organizations that they did. Magic and Bird too. If these guys had to start from the bottom on teams like Minnesota or Sacramento they'd have less rings and wouldn't be ranked as highly as they are despite being the exact same player. That's why I don't give a f*ck about ring counting.

[kennethgriffin]

Lebron benefited from

Kobe's rape case
weak conference
stacked rosters after 2010


and the chris paul veto, jerry buss's death, phil jacksons feud with jim, kobes achilles rupture

[20Four]

Between the two, who's been luckier in terms of getting drafted into a quality front office, with great teammates, coaches etc



Remember this is in terms of their entire career teammates, coaches, personal etc. Overall help throughout their careers.
I would say your the luckiest. Because your mom didn't know how fvcking stupid you are, if she did she would have aborted your bitch ass

[Hey Yo]

whos the hardest working athlete in nba history


meanwhile other dudes are like "i could use another 2 months off"
So why did he collude with LA instead of trying to build a contender with New Jersey?

[kennethgriffin]

Duncan is luckier.

In every single year of his career he was surrounded by great coaching and either solid (at worst) to all time great (at best) teammates.

He never had to struggle carrying bad supporting casts like Kobe did from '05-'07 or like Hakeem did for half of his career or like how KG did in Minnesota or like how Barkley in Philly, or MJ did in the 80's, etc.

BOTH of these guys were very fortunate to play for the organizations that they did. Magic and Bird too. If these guys had to start from the bottom on teams like Minnesota or Sacramento they'd have less rings and wouldn't be ranked as highly as they are despite being the exact same player. That's why I don't give a f*ck about ring counting.



this ^



kobes had what duncans had maybe half or less than half the time.. yet kobe still managed

MORE finals

MORE rings ( duncan 4.5 lockout )

and MORE playoff wins head to head

[kennethgriffin]

So why did he collude with LA instead of trying to build a contender with New Jersey?


he didn't

or else kobe is the greatest GM in nba history. cause he convinced LA to sign shaq by forcing himself to LA for divac ( their starting center )

[Quickening]

whos the hardest working athlete in nba history


meanwhile other dudes are like "i could use another 2 months off"

Probably some white guy with little natural athletic ability in comparision to most players like Nash... but no one knows, because we don't have 24/7 footage of players lives.

[Vaniiiia]

Probably some white guy with little natural athletic ability in comparision to most players like Nash... but no one knows, because we don't have 24/7 footage of players lives.
Kobe fans love saying shit like "He's the hardest worker ever" or "Most skilled ever" because kobe never measures up in the stuff that we can actually measure. All these vague, hypothetical labels that aren't even true.

It mostly comes from one guy though, and he's the biggest loser in message board history. Either he's buying baseball cards on ebay (yes, 30 years old and still collects cards), or he's on here posting nonsense about kobe.

Nothing he says is credible. So don't even sweat it.

[Hey Yo]

he didn't

or else kobe is the greatest GM in nba history. cause he convinced LA to sign shaq by forcing himself to LA for divac ( their starting center )
Sure he did.

LA knew Shaq was going to sign in the off-season. The deal with Charlotte was already in place before the draft.

Vaccaro says they manipulated the matter by floating a rumor that Bryant would go to Italy.

“It was my duty to inform people: buyer beware. So I had no compunction about going around telling everybody — especially New Jersey — that the possibility existed that Kobe Bryant might go to Italy … and the New Jersey Nets bit,

In 2011, ESPN’s Ian O’Connor wrote a story about how John Calipari, then head coach of the Nets, loved Bryant and wanted to take him, but was scammed out of the pick.

“John wanted to take Kobe Bryant in the [1996] draft,” then Nets GM John Nash told O’Connor. “And he got faked out.”

“Everybody knows I was talked out of that,” Calipari said.

Apparently they fell for the planted story that Kobe would play in Italy. They drafted Kerry Kittles at No. 8 instead, and Kobe slid all the way down to the Hornets at 13.



:cry: I don't want to try to build a contender, I want to play for one right away :cry: :cry:

[IllegalD]

[QUOTE=Hey Yo]Sure he did.

LA knew Shaq was going to sign in the off-season. The deal with Charlotte was already in place before the draft.

Vaccaro says they manipulated the matter by floating a rumor that Bryant would go to Italy.

[dubeta]

http://wagesofwins.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/kobe-malone-shaq-payton-174979_480_art_R0.jpeg


http://lakers.topbuzz.com/gallery/d/297518-1/New+Laker+teammates+Steve+Nash+Dwight+Howard+Metta +World+Peace+Kobe+Bryant+and+Pau+Gasol.JPG



Kobe literally invented the art of collusion

[sportjames23]

Less luck than LeBron?? :oldlol:


Lol LeBron would kill to play with Prime Barkley and Prime Drexler


So would Hakeem.

[IllegalD]

http://wagesofwins.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/kobe-malone-shaq-payton-174979_480_art_R0.jpeg


http://lakers.topbuzz.com/gallery/d/297518-1/New+Laker+teammates+Steve+Nash+Dwight+Howard+Metta +World+Peace+Kobe+Bryant+and+Pau+Gasol.JPG



Kobe literally invented the art of collusion

Cause teams comprised mostly of old (Malone, Payton, Nash) or injured (Malone, Nash, Dwight Howard), is the same as teaming up with allstars in their prime (Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love) :facepalm

[Dr Hawk]

In terms of top 10 all time, Russell was the luckiest, while Hakeem had the least amount of luck

This!!!!!

Russell might have been the luckiest as well

[Hey Yo]

James spent 7yrs trying to build one. Not his fault Cavs have a long history of not being able to sign good FA's.

He had no problems going a garbage franchise like the Cavs.

Kobe ...":cry: tell them not to draft me daddy. I wanna play for a contender :cry: "

[Uncle Drew]

whos more lucky?



98 popovich/robinson 22/11/3 avrey/vinny/elliott/jackson/person
99 popovich/robinson 16/10/3 avrey/elliott/ellie/jackson/kerr/kersey/daniels
00 popovich/robinson 18/10/2 avery/ellie/porter/jackson/rose/daniels/elliott
01 popovich/robinson 15/9/2 anderson/daniels/elliott/rose/porter/avery/ferry
02 popovich/robinson 13/8/2 parker/smith/rose/daniels/bowen/porter/jackson
03 popovich/parker 15/5/3 robinson/ginobili/jackson/rose/bowen/smith/willis
04 popovich/parker 15/6/3 ginobili/hedo/rasho/rose/bowen/horry/mercer
05 popovich/parker 17/6/4 ginobili/glen/bruce/brent/rose/nazr/horry/beno
06 popovich/parker 19/6/3 ginobili/finley/bowen/nazr/brent/exel/horry/beno
07 popovich/parker 19/6/3 ginobili/finley/barry/white/bowen/horry/beno
08 popovich/parker 19/6/3 ginobili/finley/barry/bowen/oberto/bonner/vaughn
09 popovich/parker 22/7/3 ginobili/mason/gooden/finley/hill/bonner/bowen
10 popovich/parker 16/6/3 ginobili/hill/jefferson/blair/mason/mcdeyes/finley
11 popovich/parker 18/7/3 ginobili/hill/jefferson/neal/blair/mcdeyes/green
12 popovich/parker 18/8/3 ginobili/mills/neal/blair/splitter/jefferson/green
13 popovich/parker 20/8/3 Leonard/ginobili/green/splitter/neal/jackson/diaw
14 popovich/parker 17/6/2 Leonard/ginobili/marco/mills/diaw/green/splitter
15 popovich/parker 15/5/2 Leonard/ginobili/green/marco/diaw/splitter/mills

always

1. legendary coach
2. legendary team mate
3. stacked roster


5 titles/6 finals




while kobe bryant


1997 - no legendary coach
1998 - no legendary coach
1999 - no legendary coach
2000 ( had all 3 )
2001 - no stacked roster
2002 - no stacked roster
2003 - no stacked roster
2004 ( had all 3 )
2005 - no legendary coach, no legendary sidekick, no stacked roster
2006 - no legendary sidekick, no stacked roster
2008 - no legendary sidekick, no stacked roster
2009 - no legendary sidekick, no stacked roster
2010 - no legendary sidekick
2011 - no legendary sidekick
2012 - no legendary coach, no legendary sidekick
2013 - no legendary coach, no legendary sidekick
2014 - no legendary coach, no legendary sidekick, no stacked roster
2015 - no legendary coach, no legendary sidekick, no stacked roster

= 5 titles/7 finals






duncan = barely any injuries



kobe = devastating wrist injury 1997 = fracture
kobe = devastating ankle injury 1998 = grade 2 sprain
kobe = devastating hand injury 2000 = fractured metacarpel
kobe = devastating ankle injury 2000 = grade 2 sprain
kobe = devastating ankle injury 2001 = grade 3 sprain
kobe = devastating viral infection 2001 = poisoning
kobe = devastating knee injury 2003 = ligament
kobe = devastating shoulder injury 2003 = ligament
kobe = devastating finger injury = laceration index
kobe = devastating ankle injury 2005 = grade 3 sprain
kobe = devastating knee injury 2007 = knee surgery
kobe = devastating ankle injury 2007 = grade 2 sprain
kobe = devastating hand injury 2007-2010 = Hand injuries
kobe = devastating hand injury 2010 = avulsion fracture index
kobe = devastating ankle injury 2010 = grade 2 sprain
kobe = devastating knee injury 2011 = knee surgery
kobe = devastating ankle injury 2013 = torn achilles tendon
kobe = devastating knee injury 2014 = fractured knee
kobe = devastating shoulder injury 2015 = torn ligament








duncan = flew under the radar his entire career

kobe = public enemy #1, most polarizing player of all time, criticized for everything



kobe has a chance to win mvp in 2003 ( shaq gets injured )

kobe has a chance to win a title in 2003 ( kobe rips shoulder and leg tendons, horry misses every shot he takes including the game winner to swing the series )

kobe has a chance to win a title in 2004 ( malone gets injured and girl accuses kobe of rape causing feud with shaq/break up after season )

kobe has a chance to win mvp in 2006 ( rape backlash causes media to overlook him )

kobe has a chance to win mvp in 2007 ( ditto )

kobe has a chance to win a title in 2008 ( bynum/ariza injured )

kobe has a chance to win mvp in 2009 ( 1 less win than lebron in a conference 10 times more difficult. if the east is competitive kobe gets 10 more wins than LeFree pass )

kobe has a chance to win a title in 2011 ( knee injury/surgery )

kobe has a chance to win a title in 2012 ( chris paul veto, pau injured all year )

kobe has a chance to win a title in 2013 ( jerry buss dies which causes phil to never come back, kobe achilles injury, dwight back problems all year, nash nerve damage )

kobe has a chance to catch kareem for all time points ( achilles/broken leg/torn shoulder )

kobe has a chance to get an allstar big man in the draft ( buss death backlash once again with jim picking a guard with less athleticism than a snail )

:biggums:
Not too long ago you said Mike Brown is a HOF coach. :lol
Not a single mention of Duncan's broken foot (IIRC) :lol
2003 Parker and Ginobili and washed up Robinson as ''legendary'' teammates :lol

Duncan did more in 03 than Kobe ever did.

[dubeta]

Cause teams comprised mostly of old (Malone, Payton, Nash) or injured (Malone, Nash, Dwight Howard), is the same as teaming up with allstars in their prime (Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love) :facepalm


And Wade, Irving, Love dont count as 'injured'? :roll: :roll: :roll:



f*cking retard kobe stan

[IllegalD]

James spent 7yrs trying to build one. Not his fault Cavs have a long history of not being able to sign good FA's.

He had no problems going a garbage franchise like the Cavs.

Kobe ...":cry: tell them not to draft me daddy. I wanna play for a contender :cry: "

And Kobe has had 5 years of shitty teams in LA (3 during his crucial PEAK years).

And he didn't run away like a b*tch from a contending team just because they lost in the finals and were starting to age.

"WHAAAAAAAAAAAA, ALL MY ALLSTAR TEAMMATES NEED TO BE IN THEIR PRIMES." :cry:

[IllegalD]

And Wade, Irving, Love dont count as 'injured'? :roll: :roll: :roll:



f*cking retard kobe stan

Are they gonna be injured for the entirety of LeBron's career? :confusedshrug:

[T_L_P]

It depends on how you look at it.

Kobe hasn't proved he can win without a star player, an All-NBAer at the very least.

Meanwhile Duncan didn't have an All-NBA teammate in any of his first 4 rings, or an All-Star in 03.

And while Pop may very well be the greatest coach of all time, we know it took him about half a decade of coaching with Duncan before he truly grew into his role (Phil was considered an all-timer before Kobe was even drafted).

I'm pretty sure Duncan could win 4-5 if he got to play with Shaq for 9 years. And I bet Shaq doesn't leave if Duncan is his teammate as there wouldn't be a big clash.

I don't see Kobe winning 4-5 with Duncan's cast, and I don't see the players developing under Kobe like they did Duncan.

Tim had the consistency (that's a given), but Duncan never had that burst of star power that Kobe had for almost 10 years, and history has shown that teams with two superstars are likeliest to win.

[IllegalD]

The guy who hasn't had to produce like a Superstar in over a decade and gets carried by other Finals MVPs to chips.

[dubeta]

The guy who hasn't had to produce like a Superstar in over a decade and gets carried by other Finals MVPs to chips.

So.......... Kobe? :wtf:

[IllegalD]

So.......... Kobe? :wtf:

Math isn't your strong point is it? :confusedshrug:

Kobe was a superstar up until the achilles injury in 2013 (just 2 years ago)

****ing dumbass can't even make a joke right. :roll:

[stalkerforlife]

whos more lucky?



98 popovich/robinson 22/11/3 avrey/vinny/elliott/jackson/person
99 popovich/robinson 16/10/3 avrey/elliott/ellie/jackson/kerr/kersey/daniels
00 popovich/robinson 18/10/2 avery/ellie/porter/jackson/rose/daniels/elliott
01 popovich/robinson 15/9/2 anderson/daniels/elliott/rose/porter/avery/ferry
02 popovich/robinson 13/8/2 parker/smith/rose/daniels/bowen/porter/jackson
03 popovich/parker 15/5/3 robinson/ginobili/jackson/rose/bowen/smith/willis
04 popovich/parker 15/6/3 ginobili/hedo/rasho/rose/bowen/horry/mercer
05 popovich/parker 17/6/4 ginobili/glen/bruce/brent/rose/nazr/horry/beno
06 popovich/parker 19/6/3 ginobili/finley/bowen/nazr/brent/exel/horry/beno
07 popovich/parker 19/6/3 ginobili/finley/barry/white/bowen/horry/beno
08 popovich/parker 19/6/3 ginobili/finley/barry/bowen/oberto/bonner/vaughn
09 popovich/parker 22/7/3 ginobili/mason/gooden/finley/hill/bonner/bowen
10 popovich/parker 16/6/3 ginobili/hill/jefferson/blair/mason/mcdeyes/finley
11 popovich/parker 18/7/3 ginobili/hill/jefferson/neal/blair/mcdeyes/green
12 popovich/parker 18/8/3 ginobili/mills/neal/blair/splitter/jefferson/green
13 popovich/parker 20/8/3 Leonard/ginobili/green/splitter/neal/jackson/diaw
14 popovich/parker 17/6/2 Leonard/ginobili/marco/mills/diaw/green/splitter
15 popovich/parker 15/5/2 Leonard/ginobili/green/marco/diaw/splitter/mills

always

1. legendary coach
2. legendary team mate
3. stacked roster


5 titles/6 finals




while kobe bryant


1997 - no legendary coach
1998 - no legendary coach
1999 - no legendary coach
2000 ( had all 3 )
2001 - no stacked roster
2002 - no stacked roster
2003 - no stacked roster
2004 ( had all 3 )
2005 - no legendary coach, no legendary sidekick, no stacked roster
2006 - no legendary sidekick, no stacked roster
2008 - no legendary sidekick, no stacked roster
2009 - no legendary sidekick, no stacked roster
2010 - no legendary sidekick
2011 - no legendary sidekick
2012 - no legendary coach, no legendary sidekick
2013 - no legendary coach, no legendary sidekick
2014 - no legendary coach, no legendary sidekick, no stacked roster
2015 - no legendary coach, no legendary sidekick, no stacked roster

= 5 titles/7 finals






duncan = barely any injuries



kobe = devastating wrist injury 1997 = fracture
kobe = devastating ankle injury 1998 = grade 2 sprain
kobe = devastating hand injury 2000 = fractured metacarpel
kobe = devastating ankle injury 2000 = grade 2 sprain
kobe = devastating ankle injury 2001 = grade 3 sprain
kobe = devastating viral infection 2001 = poisoning
kobe = devastating knee injury 2003 = ligament
kobe = devastating shoulder injury 2003 = ligament
kobe = devastating finger injury = laceration index
kobe = devastating ankle injury 2005 = grade 3 sprain
kobe = devastating knee injury 2007 = knee surgery
kobe = devastating ankle injury 2007 = grade 2 sprain
kobe = devastating hand injury 2007-2010 = Hand injuries
kobe = devastating hand injury 2010 = avulsion fracture index
kobe = devastating ankle injury 2010 = grade 2 sprain
kobe = devastating knee injury 2011 = knee surgery
kobe = devastating ankle injury 2013 = torn achilles tendon
kobe = devastating knee injury 2014 = fractured knee
kobe = devastating shoulder injury 2015 = torn ligament








duncan = flew under the radar his entire career

kobe = public enemy #1, most polarizing player of all time, criticized for everything



kobe has a chance to win mvp in 2003 ( shaq gets injured )

kobe has a chance to win a title in 2003 ( kobe rips shoulder and leg tendons, horry misses every shot he takes including the game winner to swing the series )

kobe has a chance to win a title in 2004 ( malone gets injured and girl accuses kobe of rape causing feud with shaq/break up after season )

kobe has a chance to win mvp in 2006 ( rape backlash causes media to overlook him )

kobe has a chance to win mvp in 2007 ( ditto )

kobe has a chance to win a title in 2008 ( bynum/ariza injured )

kobe has a chance to win mvp in 2009 ( 1 less win than lebron in a conference 10 times more difficult. if the east is competitive kobe gets 10 more wins than LeFree pass )

kobe has a chance to win a title in 2011 ( knee injury/surgery )

kobe has a chance to win a title in 2012 ( chris paul veto, pau injured all year )

kobe has a chance to win a title in 2013 ( jerry buss dies which causes phil to never come back, kobe achilles injury, dwight back problems all year, nash nerve damage )

kobe has a chance to catch kareem for all time points ( achilles/broken leg/torn shoulder )

kobe has a chance to get an allstar big man in the draft ( buss death backlash once again with jim picking a guard with less athleticism than a snail )

:biggums:

/thread

/body bagged

[JT123]

And Wade, Irving, Love dont count as 'injured'? :roll: :roll: :roll:



f*cking retard kobe stan
:roll:

[T_L_P]

In 03 Parker ('legendary sidekick') and Robinson ('legendary sidekick') averaged a combined 21/9/4.

In 2010 Pau (no legendary sidekick') averaged 19.5/11/4.

kenneth's agenda posts don't fool anyone.

[IllegalD]

:roll:

Responding to yourself with your own alts again? :applause:

[JT123]

Responding to yourself with your own alts again? :applause:
Me and Dubeta have got you on a leash, little boy. :banana:

[dubeta]

Me and Dubeta have got you on a leash, little boy. :banana:

We're all living rent free in the little boys head :lol

[SouBeachTalents]

In 03 Parker ('legendary sidekick') and Robinson ('legendary sidekick') averaged a combined 21/9/4.

In 2010 Pau (no legendary sidekick') averaged 19.5/11/4.

kenneth's agenda posts don't fool anyone.

Ether

[IllegalD]

We're all living rent free in the little boys head :lol

The irony of a poster who has nearly 10 K posts (on only ONE of his alts) in just a year calling another poster a "little boy" :roll:

[rmt]

For the majority of his career, most of Duncan's help (both team mates and coach) has been at first unknown and home grown. Pop, Parker, Manu, Leonard - have had to grow and develop - they did not come to him as STARS or PROVEN or GOAT-quality - Phil (6 rings) and Shaq (one of the 50 greatest). And yes, I haven't forgotten DRob - but he was at the tail end of his career.

Lakers have had an owner willing to spend (Holt is notoriously cheap) and a city that attracts free agents (not sleepy San Antonio). I salivate at the thought of the Spurs being able to spend $90+million on salary instead of trading away talent like Scola to stay under luxury cap most years.

[Cold soul]

They both have but I give slight edge to Duncan he's been lucky having stable and first class organization he has never had to go through any rebuilding phase in his career.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Duncan >>>> #93

[feyki]

99 Koe

00 Kobe

01 Kobe
02 Kobe
03 Kobe
04 Kobe
05 Duncan
06 Duncan
07 Duncan
08 Kobe
09 Kobe
10 Kobe
11 Kobe
12 Duncan
13 Duncan
14 Duncan
15 Duncan .

[rmt]

They both have but I give slight edge to Duncan he's been lucky having stable and first class organization he has never had to go through any rebuilding phase in his career.

Surely you jest? Only Duncan played on both 1999 and 2005 championships. How does a team not rebuild if only one player remains from 6 years before? Seriously, please think before you post. It was a total rebuild (except for Duncan) with Duncan having to cover for the usual developmental growing pains of Parker and Manu (see 2003).

[ralph_i_el]

Kobe. His first 3 rings came with a player that in his prime was better than Kobe OR Duncan

[Cold soul]

Surely you jest? Only Duncan played on both 1999 and 2005 championships. How does a team not rebuild if only one player remains from 6 years before? Seriously, please think before you post. It was a total rebuild (except for Duncan) with Duncan having to cover for the usual developmental growing pains of Parker and Manu (see 2003).

How has the big three lasted so long those being Manu, Parker, and Duncan. Please answer me this when was last time Spurs were in lottery or had top 10 pick for that matter? Duncan has been beyond blessed to have stable organization top to bottom his entire career. Duncan has been with Pop his whole career how many of the all-greats have only had one coach from start to finish not many.....

[houston]

Duncan of course dude played with hall of fame talent throughout his career.

[34-24 Footwork]

I hate Kobe with a passion, but I think the guy who left his wife for a dude has had the luckier career.

[sportjames23]

I hate Kobe with a passion, but I think the guy who left his wife for a dude has had the luckier career.

:biggums:

[Bankaii]

How has the big three lasted so long those being Manu, Parker, and Duncan. Please answer me this when was last time Spurs were in lottery or had top 10 pick for that matter? Duncan has been beyond blessed to have stable organization top to bottom his entire career. Duncan has been with Pop his whole career how many of the all-greats have only had one coach from start to finish not many.....
I'm not saying he's the main reason, but if you don't think Kobe having mediocre teams and coaches for certain seasons isn't partly his fault then you're just another Kobetard.

Phil has publicly voiced his issues with Kobe, and I'm sure that played a role in his first leaving. Shaq getting traded was also partly due to Kobe. Not to mention his horrible recruiting pitches to other stars(Aldridge) and giant contracts affecting free agency. Kobe has always put himself first.

Duncan has always maintained a good relationship with Pop and the Big 3. He had no problem letting Parker take over in 2007 and Kawhi recently and now Aldridge by taking a paycut. Duncan is a better man and teammate, and far less selfish. That's the difference.

[Bankaii]

Duncan of course dude played with hall of fame talent throughout his career.
Duncan's 03 team is worse than any championship help Kobe has ever had.
Don't even have to mention Shaq.

[34-24 Footwork]

I'm not saying he's the main reason, but if you don't think Kobe having mediocre teams and coaches for certain seasons isn't partly his fault then you're just another Kobetard.

Phil has publicly voiced his issues with Kobe, and I'm sure that played a role in his first leaving. Shaq getting traded was also partly due to Kobe. Not to mention his horrible recruiting pitches to other stars(Aldridge) and giant contracts affecting free agency. Kobe has always put himself first.

Duncan has always maintained a good relationship with Pop and the Big 3. He had no problem letting Parker take over in 2007 and Kawhi recently and now Aldridge by taking a paycut. Duncan is a better man and teammate, and far less selfish. That's the difference.


Citing Phil Jackson as a source for a negative opinion on Kobe is like citing the bible for Global Peace.

In other words, it can be easily dismissed as Phil Jackson as made a considerable amount of money while preaching the opposite about the same player he currently denounces from time to time...specifically months before he releases a new book.

[Paul George 24]

Between the two, who's been luckier in terms of getting drafted into a quality front office, with great teammates, coaches etc



Remember this is in terms of their entire career teammates, coaches, personal etc. Overall help throughout their careers.
Lebron James is the most luckiest player,no doubt

[Bankaii]

Citing Phil Jackson as a source for a negative opinion on Kobe is like citing the bible for Global Peace.

In other words, it can be easily dismissed as Phil Jackson as made a considerable amount of money while preaching the opposite about the same player he currently denounces from time to time...specifically months before he releases a new book.
You're completely right. Why take Phil Jackson's word on how he feels about Kobe?

I'm sure some dumbass troll on the internet knows their relationship much better than he does:rolleyes:

[34-24 Footwork]

You're completely right. Why take Phil Jackson's word on how he feels about Kobe?

I'm sure some dumbass troll on the internet knows their relationship much better than he does:rolleyes:

Geez. Lebron stans are retarded as fock. You're citing the most inconsistent person on the topic, you dumbass.

For every negative thing he's said, he's said something just as positive and controversial... preying on weak minded children like you.

[Cold soul]

I'm not saying he's the main reason, but if you don't think Kobe having mediocre teams and coaches for certain seasons isn't partly his fault then you're just another Kobetard.

Phil has publicly voiced his issues with Kobe, and I'm sure that played a role in his first leaving. Shaq getting traded was also partly due to Kobe. Not to mention his horrible recruiting pitches to other stars(Aldridge) and giant contracts affecting free agency. Kobe has always put himself first.

Duncan has always maintained a good relationship with Pop and the Big 3. He had no problem letting Parker take over in 2007 and Kawhi recently and now Aldridge by taking a paycut. Duncan is a better man and teammate, and far less selfish. That's the difference.

Well of course Kobe is part to blame especially in his younger days #8 he was very hard to coach and immature kid that had some growing up to do. Kobe however does not hire the coaches or players that's Mitch Kupchak job along with ownership Jim Buss. Duncan is less selfish and has no ego he's one of few players in history to do that as far his high caliber of player goes. Kobe isn't perfect but he's been face of franchise since the summer of 2004 he has done a lot not only for Lakers but NBA as whole, he will be missed by many including his haters. I will say Duncan can be average or below like 2011 and nobody cares or says anything but if it's Kobe game on expect ton of disrespectful comments by these stat geeks in these articles that have never played on any level of basketball in their life but are so called experts. Kobe has that Barry Bonds relationship with the national media.

[24-Inch_Chrome]

tough call...in terms of winning titles....Kobe was luckier...in terms of having a stable franchise and remaining good to great consistently....Duncan was luckier.

Agreed. :applause:

[SpecialQue]

Us, the fans, because we got to experience two legends bring their teams championships and build on their franchise's legacies, not to mention have some fantastic series between them.

Those years were a great time to be an NBA fan.

[Kobe_6/8]

Between the two, who's been luckier in terms of getting drafted into a quality front office, with great teammates, coaches etc



Remember this is in terms of their entire career teammates, coaches, personal etc. Overall help throughout their careers.

Duncan. Kobe had to overcome a lot of resistance to become the star he is today.

[IllegalD]

Us, the fans, because we got to experience two legends bring their teams championships and build on their franchise's legacies, not to mention have some fantastic series between them.

Those years were a great time to be an NBA fan.

Best answer here. :applause:

Those Lakers/Spurs battles of the 2000s are on par with Bird's Celtics vs Magic's Lakers in the 80's. (but with a fraction of the hype) :bowdown:

This TNT intro to the 2008 WCFs is the best representation of that epic rivalry. Gives me chills watching it.

https://youtu.be/hqyL2zDl_B8

[24-Inch_Chrome]

Us, the fans, because we got to experience two legends bring their teams championships and build on their franchise's legacies, not to mention have some fantastic series between them.

Those years were a great time to be an NBA fan.

http://i.imgur.com/UAXQz3e.gif

[Cali Syndicate]

Duncan. Kobe had to overcome a lot of resistance to become the star he is today.

There was no resistance, he just wasn't ready to be a starter coming out of high school on a contending team. Duncan on the other hand, with four years of div I ball under his belt was ready to go since day one.

If Kobe started his career on the hornets, in a way, his career stats and milestones would probably overall look better but I doubt he would have 5 ships...Kobe was luckier.

[Lebronxrings]

Us, the fans, because we got to experience two legends bring their teams championships and build on their franchise's legacies, not to mention have some fantastic series between them.

Those years were a great time to be an NBA fan.
you're right...


i feel so fortunate to have watched Shaq and Pop.

[DaOldLion]

Duncan's 03 team is worse than any championship help Kobe has ever had.
Don't even have to mention Shaq.

funny that you would mention the Spurs 03 run in a thread about luck..

Spurs faced the Lakers who had Kobe suffering through a torn labrum (same injury that ended his season in 15) and then faced a Mavs team who lost Dirk 3 games into the series..

[Kobe_6/8]

There was no resistance, he just wasn't ready to be a starter coming out of high school on a contending team. Duncan on the other hand, with four years of div I ball under his belt was ready to go since day one.

If Kobe started his career on the hornets, in a way, his career stats and milestones would probably overall look better but I doubt he would have 5 ships...Kobe was luckier.

Good points. Shaq may not have 3-peated without young Kobe but would have won at least 1 ring. Robinson however needed Duncan to win his rings.

[Bankaii]

Geez. Lebron stans are retarded as fock. You're citing the most inconsistent person on the topic, you dumbass.

For every negative thing he's said, he's said something just as positive and controversial... preying on weak minded children like you.
Everyone that doesn't jerk off to Kobe isn't a Bron Stan dumbass.
And again, I'll take his word over some internet troll that doesn't know basketball.

[Bankaii]

funny that you would mention the Spurs 03 run in a thread about luck..

Spurs faced the Lakers who had Kobe suffering through a torn labrum (same injury that ended his season in 15) and then faced a Mavs team who lost Dirk 3 games into the series..
Kobe had 27 FGA per game and played 43 minutes per game. He was healthy enough to play. Stop making excuses.

And acting like Kobe hasn't had luck with other teams being injured...

[knicksman]

theres nothing luckier than having wade and bosh on your side. Bran is the only player who had 2 1st option players in their prime. Thats why 2 rings is laughable at best if kobe could win the same with just a 2nd option(Gasol).

[Bankaii]

Well of course Kobe is part to blame especially in his younger days #8 he was very hard to coach and immature kid that had some growing up to do. Kobe however does not hire the coaches or players that's Mitch Kupchak job along with ownership Jim Buss. Duncan is less selfish and has no ego he's one of few players in history to do that as far his high caliber of player goes. Kobe isn't perfect but he's been face of franchise since the summer of 2004 he has done a lot not only for Lakers but NBA as whole, he will be missed by many including his haters. I will say Duncan can be average or below like 2011 and nobody cares or says anything but if it's Kobe game on expect ton of disrespectful comments by these stat geeks in these articles that have never played on any level of basketball in their life but are so called experts. Kobe has that Barry Bonds relationship with the national media.
Yea I will admit that Duncan gets more passes than Kobe an Lebron but that's also due to him not being as popular and media-oriented. He's a lot more low profile.

Kobe's game is also a lot more predicated on his offense and high profile scoring more so that Duncan so whenever he struggles offensively as he has these past couple of years people go him harder.

[dubeta]

theres nothing luckier than having wade and bosh on your side. Bran is the only player who had 2 1st option players in their prime. Thats why 2 rings is laughable at best if kobe could win the same with just a 2nd option(Gasol).

Yet these 2 1st option players cant make the playoffs without bran :lol


but keep with your meltdown

[20Four]

Yet these 2 1st option players cant make the playoffs without bran :lol


but keep with your meltdown
STFU you stupid son of a bitch, im tired of your bullshit, thats why you keep avoiding my PM's you stupid little bitch. You know your trolling wont work in real life when I'm in front of you, you stupid mother ****er

[GIF REACTION]

STFU you stupid son of a bitch, im tired of your bullshit, thats why you keep avoiding my PM's you stupid little bitch. You know your trolling wont work in real life when I'm in front of you, you stupid mother ****er
I'll take an Oreo McFlurry thanks

[knicksman]

Yet these 2 1st option players cant make the playoffs without bran :lol


but keep with your meltdown

Having 2 1st options in wade and bosh is equivalent or even greater than having shaq alone. Thats why if kobe could win 3 rings with shaq then kobe>>>bran. In fact kyrie + love too is as good or better than shaq. So stop the excuses bran stans. Maybe its time to accept that really bran just cant attract double teams instead of bad teammates.

[dubeta]

Having 2 1st options in wade and bosh is equivalent or even greater than having shaq alone. Thats why if kobe could win 3 rings with shaq then kobe>>>bran. In fact kyrie + love too is as good or better than shaq. So stop the excuses bran stans. Maybe its time to accept that really bran just cant attract double teams instead of bad teammates.

Bro you're melting down :kobe:

Wade + Bosh = lottery in the East


Gasol > Pippen > Wade

Odom > Kukoc > Bosh


Shaq >> Wade + Bosh





Kyrie without Lebron = lottery

Love without LeBron = lottery


Yet still won 2 rings

[IllegalD]

Yet these 2 1st option players cant make the playoffs without bran :lol


but keep with your meltdown

Both Wade and Bosh made playoffs as the go-to-option of their respective teams long before LeBitch ever teamed up with them. Wade even managed to snag himself a ring and a Finals MVP.

[JT123]

Both Wade and Bosh made playoffs as the go-to-option of their respective teams long before LeBitch ever teamed up with them. Wade even managed to snag himself a ring and a Finals MVP.
Haven't you been bullied by the family enough for one day? :lol
If you value your lunch money I would log off now

[knicksman]

Bro you're melting down :kobe:

Wade + Bosh = lottery in the East


Gasol > Pippen > Wade

Odom > Kukoc > Bosh


Shaq >> Wade + Bosh





Kyrie without Lebron = lottery

Love without LeBron = lottery


Yet still won 2 rings

Bro its really time to admit that kobe>>>bran. I mean how can you call yourself all time great when defenders defend you like you dont exist. I mean kobe attract double teams or even triple teams while brans team is playing 4 vs 5 on offense. Honestly im a bran fan brah but its embarrasing for me that my boy gets defended like that. I mean I thought he was great because of triple doubles and espn says hes goat but why the fcuk is he defended like that. I really need an explanation from you coz you seem to be an expert on this. After all, you wouldnt be a leader of the fam if you arent right?

[knicksman]

Haven't you been bullied by the family enough for one day? :lol
If you value your lunch money I would log off now

yeah says the bran stan whos hiding through his alt. LOL

[IllegalD]

Haven't you been bullied by the family enough for one day? :lol
If you value your lunch money I would log off now

Actually, that thread dropped to the bottom of the 1st page after I body-bagged you and all your 25 alts you call "LeBron fam" and "all of you" scampered like cockroaches. :banana:

[Rocketswin2013]

Tough. Maybe Kobe. I could see arguments either way.

Edge to Kobe though. Jackson is better than Pop and O'Neal in his prime was possibly better than Duncan himself.

[ShawkFactory]

This shit is amazing

[Horatio33]

How has the big three lasted so long those being Manu, Parker, and Duncan. Please answer me this when was last time Spurs were in lottery or had top 10 pick for that matter? Duncan has been beyond blessed to have stable organization top to bottom his entire career. Duncan has been with Pop his whole career how many of the all-greats have only had one coach from start to finish not many.....

Another way of looking at it, Spurs have built around Duncan 3 or 4 times without high draft picks, so have had to rely on late first round/second round draft picks.

Plus Pop wasn't great at first. First two titles were Duncan dragging an underachieving team (99) or a untalented team with washed up players and young inexperienced players.

Pop was nearly fired before the first title. Does that strike you as a "great" coach from the beginning? http://espn.go.com/blog/los-angeles/clippers/post/_/id/7757/long-ago-doc-rivers-nearly-broke-up-gregg-popovich-and-the-spurs

[SouBeachTalents]

Both Wade and Bosh made playoffs as the go-to-option of their respective teams long before LeBitch ever teamed up with them. Wade even managed to snag himself a ring and a Finals MVP.

There was literally nothing impressive about Bosh's tenure with the Raptors.

2 first round exits
Missed the playoffs 5/7 seasons
Had 5 losing seasons

All of this in the "worst conference of all time" to boot

[20Four]

I'll take an Oreo McFlurry thanks
You keep talking shit to me but when I call you out to box me you go hiding....just STFU before I put you in your place ok? You cant troll me real life, thats why you hide behind your computer and talk shit, ill PM you now

[warriorfan]

I'm Still Beta getting bullied

:eek:

[dubeta]

I'll take an Oreo McFlurry thanks

:roll:

[20Four]

:roll:
you laugh but your a bitch too, talking shit but when I want to fly you out here you go into hiding....typical bitch you are.....at least you know now that your my bitch and so is all the leBRONZE family....yall are my bitches I own yall

[dubeta]

http://i.imgur.com/NN56Q9S.png

What's that???




Speak up Nigel!

[20Four]

What's that???




Speak up Nigel!
Is that all you got?? Post pictures? But when I call you out you dont respond? You a bitch made nikka, thats all I can say and everyone knows I own you, so its ok

I PM'd you 3 times already but no response back? LMAO you fvcking chump

[Jameerthefear]

What's that???




Speak up Nigel!
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[24-Inch_Chrome]

20Four, you seem a little angry. Seems like you've got a short temper.

[warriorfan]

the LeShook fam

[ShawkFactory]

Is that all you got?? Post pictures? But when I call you out you dont respond? You a bitch made nikka, thats all I can say and everyone knows I own you, so its ok

I PM'd you 3 times already but no response back? LMAO you fvcking chump
I hate both of you. You're both retarded and pointless. But it seems like he owns you pal. Shook as fvck

[stalkerforlife]

20four is the hardest poster on ISH.

But my man, please don't hurt anyone. I don't want to see you in jail over one of these cowardly Bran stans. You would literally snap them in half with one arm tied behind your back.

Have mercy on them, bro.

[rmt]

Another way of looking at it, Spurs have built around Duncan 3 or 4 times without high draft picks, so have had to rely on late first round/second round draft picks.

Plus Pop wasn't great at first. First two titles were Duncan dragging an underachieving team (99) or a untalented team with washed up players and young inexperienced players.

Pop was nearly fired before the first title. Does that strike you as a "great" coach from the beginning? http://espn.go.com/blog/los-angeles/clippers/post/_/id/7757/long-ago-doc-rivers-nearly-broke-up-gregg-popovich-and-the-spurs

You nailed it perfectly. Lots of posters think that Pop has always been the quality coach that he is now. They don't see the 71-71 NBA record he had before the 99 championship run. They don't know that it's because Avery rallied the troops behind Pop, winning that game and securing Pop's future - this is why Avery's number is hanging in the rafters - not from anything he did on the court but by saving Pop's butt. They just say "Oh, both Phil and Pop are HOF coaches" not remembering that Phil came to LA with 6 rings while Pop was some unknown Division III coach from Ponoma with no NBA experience. Pop's line is always, "The only thing we did is NOT mess it up" (meaning nothing too drastic).

They don't remember that Parker and Manu didn't start out as the stars they would become. That in 4th quarter of game 6 of the 03 NBA Finals, Pop benched Parker for Speedy Claxton. That Manu has cost the Spurs BIG time with his mistakes - Dirk's foul and charging into 3 Heat players and drawing that offensive foul instead of running clock.

And they don't want to give Duncan credit for facilitating all the changes, for allowing Parker, Manu and Leonard to grow/develop and become stars, for adapting and re-inventing his game through the years as the team has changed, for giving the team exactly what it needs. I guess they think that this sustained run of excellence could have happened with just about any superstar.

[20Four]

20four is the hardest poster on ISH.

But my man, please don't hurt anyone. I don't want to see you in jail over one of these cowardly Bran stans. You would literally snap them in half with one arm tied behind your back.

Have mercy on them, bro.
:cheers:

[Hey Yo]

And Kobe has had 5 years of shitty teams in LA (3 during his crucial PEAK years
He cried his way from possibly having shitty teams in Jersey for his first 5yrs. LeBron had no problem taking on the Cleveland challenge his rookie year + 6 more. Kobe scared to be a starter his rookie year. Would rather ride the pine his first 2yrs while watching his contending team.


And he didn't run away like a b*tch from a contending team just because they lost in the finals and were starting to age.
Kobe ran away from trying to build a garbage team like the Net's into a playoff team from his rookie year on. Instead, Kobe wanted to be on the contending Lakers or he was signing in Italy. Then tried to run away to the Bulls, demanding a trade only after a few down seasons w/o MDE.

"Kobe Bryant demanded a trade from the Lakers back in 2007, but ultimately a deal was not struck, and the team went on to win two additional titles with Bryant as NBA Finals MVP.

Where did Bryant want to go in trade?

"Chicago was my No. 1 choice," said Bryant on Sunday, via "Grantland Basketball Hour."

"The Lakers did have conversations with the Bulls, but a prospective deal was believed to have gotten hung up on the inclusion of forward Luol Deng, now with the Miami Heat.[/QUOTE]



If Deng's not part of the deal, Kobe goes to Chicago.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/lakers/lakersnow/la-sp-ln-kobe-bryant-wanted-trade-2007-chicago-bulls-20150223-story.html

[mentallooser]

Less luck than LeBron?? :oldlol:


Lol LeBron would kill to play with Prime Barkley and Prime Drexler

I'm sure Hakeem would have killed for that too.....

[SsKSpurs21]

i think the negatives vastly outweigh the positives in terms of kobes "luck" throughout his career


plus... nobodies lucky when they themselves must average 25ppg/5rpg/5apg for the 3 playoffs combined. saving the season in 2000 wcf game 7 cause shaq got scared

then saving the finals game 4...

if it was so easy for shaq to win titles... then explain this

_____________________________________


1993 - nick anderson 20ppg
1993 - dennis scott 16ppg
1993 - scott skiles 15ppg

result = missed playoffs

1994 - penny hardaway 16ppg
1994 - nick anderson 16ppg
1994 - dennis scott 13ppg
1994 - scott skiles 10ppg

result = swept first round

1995 - penny hardaway 21ppg
1995 - nick anderson 16ppg
1995 - dennis scott 13ppg
1995 - horace grant 13ppg

result = swept nba finals

1996 - penny hardaway 22ppg
1996 - dennis scott 18ppg
1996 - nick anderson 15ppg
1996 - horace grant 13ppg

result = swept third round

1997 - eddie jones 17ppg
1997 - nick van exel 15ppg
1997 - elden campbell 15ppg
1997 - cedric ceballos 11ppg

result = lost 1-4 first round

1998 - eddie jones 17ppg
1998 - kobe bryant 15ppg
1998 - nick van exel 14ppg
1998 - rick fox 12ppg
1998 - elden campbell 10ppg

result = swept first round

1999 - kobe bryant 20ppg
1999 - glen rice 18ppg
1999 - rick fox 10ppg

result = swept 2nd round

2003 - kobe bryant 30ppg ( injured in playoffs )
2003 - derek fisher 10ppg

result = lost 2-4 in 2nd round

2005 - dwyane wade 24ppg
2005 - eddie jones 13ppg
2005 - damon jones 12ppg
2005 - udonas haslem 11ppg

result = lost 3-4 in third round


2007 - dwyane wade 27ppg
2007 - jason williams 11ppg
2007 - jason kapono 11ppg
2007 - udonas haslem 11ppg

result = swept first round

2008 - amare stoudemire 25ppg
2008 - steve nash 16ppg
2008 - shawn marion 16ppg
2008 - leandro barbosa 16ppg
2008 - grant hill 13ppg
2008 - raja bell 12ppg

result = lost 1-4 first round

2009 - amare stoudemire 21ppg
2009 - jason richardson 16ppg
2009 - steve nash 16ppg
2009 - leandro barbosa 14ppg
2009 - grant hill 12ppg
2009 - matt barnes 10ppg

result = missed playoffs

2010 - lebron james 30ppg
2010 - mo williams 16ppg
2010 - antawn jamison 16ppg

result = lost 2-4 in 2nd round

2011 - paul pierce 19ppg
2011 - ray allen 17ppg
2011 - kevin garnett 15ppg
2011 - glen davis 12ppg
2011 - rajon rondo 11ppg
2011 - jeff green 10ppg

result = lost 1-4 in 2nd round






Fact* when shaq didnt have an elite healthy kobe bryant or dwyane wade. He failed miserably with copious amounts of talent surrounding him

Shaquille o'neal dominated the finals in 2000,2001,2002.. yes

Nobody is arguing that those series could have been salvaged without kobe bean bryant. But in order to even get that far shaq needed kobe for the portlands, sanantonios and sacramentos

In game 7 of the 2000 wcf.. kobe bryabt was the leader in points, assists, rebounds and blocked shots. Perhaps the biggest game of shaqs life was saved by a 21 year old.

Then in the 2000 nba finals. Had kobe not saved the day in game 4

Game 1 - lakers won
Game 2 - lakers won
Game 3 - pacers won
Game 4 - pacers win instead
Game 5 - pacers won


Basically indiana has all the momentum up 3 games to 2 going back to LA for games 6 and 7

Who knows what happens



As for 2001 and 2002. Kobe was as important as any teammate in nba history

But to put one more stamp on the point i'm trying to make. Out of all 2nd leading scorers in championship history. Kobe bryant has the 2 highest scoring averages in the playoffs AND nba finals


Playoffs:

2001 Kobe Bryant 29.4
2002 Kobe Bryant 26.6
1986 Kevin Mchale 24.9
1958 Bob Pettit 24.2
1963 Sam Jones 23.8
1966 John Havlicek 23.6
1972 Jerry West 22.9
2012 Dwyane Wade 22.8
1987 Magic Johnson 21.8
1967 Wilt Chamberlain 21.7
1991 Scottie Pippen 21.6
1985 James Worthy 21.5
1978 Bob Dandridge 21.2
2000 Kobe Bryant 21.1
1957 Bill Sharman 21.1
1976 Dave Cowens 21.0
1979 Dennis Johnson 20.9
2005 Manu Ginobili 20.8
2007 Tony Parker 20.8
1962 Tom Heinsohn 20.7
1968 Sam Jones 20.5
1995 Clyde Drexler 20.5
1974 Dave Cowens 20.5
1982 Kareem Abdul Jabbar 20.4
1980 Jamaal Wilkes 20.3
1956 Neil Johnston 20.3
1993 Scottie Pippen 20.1
1959 Bill Sharman 20.1
2006 Shaquille O'neal 20.0
1988 Magic Johnson 19.9
2010 Pau Gasol 19.6
1992 Scottie Pippen 19.5
1997 Scottie Pippen 19.2
1971 Bob Dandridge 19.2
1961 Bill Russell 19.1
2008 Kevin Garnett 18.8
1983 Andrew Tony 18.8
2015 Klay Thompson 18.6
1965 John Havlicek 18.5
1960 Bill Russell 18.5
2009 Pau Gasol 18.3
1977 Bill Walton 18.2
1990 Joe Dumars 18.2
1989 Joe Dumars 17.6
2011 Jason Terry 17.5
1964 Tom Heinsohn 17.4
1970 Dick Barnett 16.9
1996 Scottie Pippen 16.9
1998 Scottie Pippen 16.8
1969 Sam Jones 16.8
1984 Dennis Johnson 16.6
2004 Chauncey Billups 16.4
2014 Tim Duncan 16.3
1981 Cedric Maxwell 16.1
1973 Earl Monroe 16.1
1952 Jim Pollard 16.1
2013 Dwyane Wade 15.9
1951 Bob Davies 15.9
1999 David Robinson 15.6
1975 Jamaal Wilkes 15.0
2003 Tony Parker 14.7
1953 Jim Pollard 14.3
1994 Vernon Maxwell 13.8
1955 Red Kerr 13.8
1950 Vern Mikkelsen 13.0
1954 Jim Pollard 12.3




Finals:

2002 Kobe Bryant 26.8
2001 Kobe bryant 24.6
1958 Bob Pettit 24.0 ( Cliff Hagan 25.3, playoffs and finals leader )
1986 Larry Bird 24.0 ( Mchale 25.8ppg )
1985 James Worthy 23.7
1971 Oscar Robertson 23.5
1963 Tom Heinsohn 23.3 ( Jones 24.6 )
1966 Sam Jones 22.9
1974 Dave Cowens 22.7
1979 Dennis Johnson 22.6 ( Gus Williams 29.0ppg finals, playoffs leader too..wtf? )
2012 Dwyane Wade 22.6
1959 Tie* Sharman/Ramsay 22.5 ( heinsohn 24.2 )
1962 Sam Jones 22.1 ( russell 22.8 )
1983 Andrew Tony 22.0 ( Julius Erving 3rd option in playoffs and finals )
1957 Bill Sharman 21.8 ( Heinsohn 24.0 )
1987 Kareem Abdul Jabbar 21.7
1980 Magic Johnson 21.5
1995 Clyde Drexler 21.5
1989 Isiah Thomas 21.3
1993 Scottie Pippen 21.2
1988 Magic Johnson 21.1
1968 Bailey Howell 21.0
2004 Chauncey Billups 21.0 (Rip playoff and finals leader. robbed )
1992 Scottie Pippen 20.8
1991 Scottie Pippen 20.8
1990 Joe Dumars 20.6
1976 Dave Cowens 20.5
1978 Bob Dandridge 20.4
2008 Ray Allen 20.3
1997 Scottie Pippen 20.0
1972 Jerry West 19.8
2013 Dwyane Wade 19.6
2005 Manu Ginobili 18.7
1969 Sam Jones 18.7
1970 Dick Barnett 18.6
2010 Pau Gasol 18.6
2009 Pau Gasol 18.6
1977 Bill Walton 18.5
1960 Frank Ramsay 18.4 ( Heinsohn 22.4 )
1964 John Havlicek 18.4
2007 Tim Duncan 18.3
1965 John Havlicek 18.2
2011 Jason Terry 18.0
1982 Kareem Abdul Jabbar 18.0
2014 Kawhi Leonard 17.8
1967 Wilt Chamberlain 17.7 ( Hal Greer 26.0ppg. would have been mvp )
1961 Bill Russell 17.6 ( heinsohn 22.0 )
1984 Dennis Johnson 17.6
1951 Bob Davies 17.0
1999 David Robinson 16.6
1973 Willis Reed 16.4
1952 Jim Pollard 16.4
2015 Andre Iguodala 16.3
1998 Scottie Pippen 15.7
1996 Scottie Pippen 15.7
2000 Kobe Bryant 15.6 ( *19.0 minus the 2 point injury game )
1981 Larry Bird 15.3 ( ....................wtf? )
1953 Jim Pollard 14.4
2003 Tony Parker 14.0
2006 Antoine Walker 13.8 ( to my surprise Shaq only averaged 13.7 )
1956 Neil Johnston 13.6 ( Arizin 27.6 )
1950 Jim Pollard 13.6 ( mikan 32.1 )
1994 Vernon Maxwell 13.4




In the end. Shaq was a beast. But he probably had the most help that any guy ever had in nba history in terms of a single teammate... not saying kobe didnt either. But it was a 2 man team. And both needed each other


LOL, damn dude, do you have a day job?

[zeerghit]

You keep talking shit to me but when I call you out to box me you go hiding....just STFU before I put you in your place ok? You cant troll me real life, thats why you hide behind your computer and talk shit, ill PM you now

small dick reaction

[SCdac]

Didn't read many responses yet, but as a lifelong San Antonio resident I'd say that Duncan in large part created the stability and championship hopes for the Spurs in ways that Robinson or Gervin never quite could, while Kobe was in a richer environment alongside a Duncan-level player in Shaquille Oneal and was able to get Pau Gasol and nearly get Chris Paul (while I guess you could argue that's unlucky, it just shows the pull and lopsided trades they could benefit from). I fee like Kobe was luckier, but at the end of the day, greatness attracts greatness and that's true for both players I believe.

[oarabbus]

Who's been luckier?

Kobe has been carried, Duncan IS the carrier.

Although he has Pop, but Kobe had Jackson.

Kobe wins this argument easily.

[DMAVS41]

Didn't read many responses yet, but as a lifelong San Antonio resident I'd say that Duncan in large part created the stability and championship hopes for the Spurs in ways that Robinson or Gervin never quite could, while Kobe was in a richer environment alongside a Duncan-level player in Shaquille Oneal and was able to get Pau Gasol and nearly get Chris Paul (while I guess you could argue that's unlucky, it just shows the pull and lopsided trades they could benefit from). I fee like Kobe was luckier, but at the end of the day, greatness attracts greatness and that's true for both players I believe.

Greatness certainly can attract great players, but it's far more complicated than that. LeBron didn't attract any great players to the Cavs for 7 years...is that his fault?

How about KG and Hakeem? Were they not great? Most consider them among the 15 or so best players in the history of the game...but they hardly had great rosters around them for most of their prime years.

Certainly having an all time great player helps a franchise build a successful team, but you need more. You put Duncan in Minnesota with that disaster of a franchise and he's not doing anything to get them to make great draft picks or hire an all time great coach...etc. He would have just bounced to Orlando like he almost did in 00.

[SouBeachTalents]

Greatness certainly can attract great players, but it's far more complicated than that. LeBron didn't attract any great players to the Cavs for 7 years...is that his fault?

How about KG and Hakeem? Were they not great? Most consider them among the 15 or so best players in the history of the game...but they hardly had great rosters around them for most of their prime years.

Certainly having an all time great player helps a franchise build a successful team, but you need more. You put Duncan in Minnesota with that disaster of a franchise and he's not doing anything to get them to make great draft picks or hire an all time great coach...etc. He would have just bounced to Orlando like he almost did in 00.

:applause:

[rmt]

Greatness certainly can attract great players, but it's far more complicated than that. LeBron didn't attract any great players to the Cavs for 7 years...is that his fault?

How about KG and Hakeem? Were they not great? Most consider them among the 15 or so best players in the history of the game...but they hardly had great rosters around them for most of their prime years.

Certainly having an all time great player helps a franchise build a successful team, but you need more. You put Duncan in Minnesota with that disaster of a franchise and he's not doing anything to get them to make great draft picks or hire an all time great coach...etc. He would have just bounced to Orlando like he almost did in 00.

I believe that with the advent of social media, internet, etc. news/attention is covered instantaneous. No longer is it important for stars/superstars to be in big cities/media centers like NY and LA. They can still get media coverage in small cities like OKC (Durant has not suffered endorsement-wise). And with the amount of money being handed out these day and the very strict luxury tax penalties, players won't mind going to smaller markets.

So in this sense, it's different from past eras when the incentive to stay with teams that drafted a player was much higher. With the huge endorsement deals, especially for superstars, their NBA salary is almost secondary. IMO, we will see a lot more team engineering by superstars whose primary goal will be to team up and win championships without regard to money (because they'll get that anywhere). All this is bad news for NY and LA fans - no longer will they be able to try to attract/buy their way to championships by spending so much more than every other team.

[DMAVS41]

I believe that with the advent of social media, internet, etc. news/attention is covered instantaneous. No longer is it important for stars/superstars to be in big cities/media centers like NY and LA. They can still get media coverage in small cities like OKC (Durant has not suffered endorsement-wise). And with the amount of money being handed out these day and the very strict luxury tax penalties, players won't mind going to smaller markets.

So in this sense, it's different from past eras when the incentive to stay with teams that drafted a player was much higher. With the huge endorsement deals, especially for superstars, their NBA salary is almost secondary. IMO, we will see a lot more team engineering by superstars whose primary goal will be to team up and win championships without regard to money (because they'll get that anywhere). All this is bad news for NY and LA fans - no longer will they be able to try to attract/buy their way to championships by spending so much more than every other team.

Sure, that may happen, but that wasn't my point.

My point was that great players in themselves alone....are not enough to make a franchise great. Or at least all time great.

Going forward that might not matter as much because of what you say above....but we will see.

All I know...is that Anthony Davis being drafted to a franchise like the Pelicans is worse for him than Duncan being drafted to a franchise like the Spurs.

Now, I totally agree that Duncan had an enormous impact on the stability of the Spurs, but the Spurs still had to have Pop and Buford in place and make great draft picks and decisions. If they whiff on Manu and Parker...as great as Duncan was/is...the Spurs simply never are the Spurs we know of.

Just like it's not AD's fault that the Pelicans haven't put much around him so far in his career and have some bad contracts on the roster.

[TheBigVeto]

Kobe easy. He's got the commish's backing.

[SCdac]

Greatness certainly can attract great players, but it's far more complicated than that. LeBron didn't attract any great players to the Cavs for 7 years...is that his fault?

How about KG and Hakeem? Were they not great? Most consider them among the 15 or so best players in the history of the game...but they hardly had great rosters around them for most of their prime years.

Certainly having an all time great player helps a franchise build a successful team, but you need more. You put Duncan in Minnesota with that disaster of a franchise and he's not doing anything to get them to make great draft picks or hire an all time great coach...etc. He would have just bounced to Orlando like he almost did in 00.

You got to take into account personality... the personalities of Duncan, KG, Kobe, and every player for that matter are all very different. So assumptions only go so far. We just don't know how Duncan would have affected other franchises. It's not always as simple as "the team provided me with X, Y, and Z so I'm staying"... Some players would stay where others would leave and vice versa ... Would Shaq or Ben Wallace have chosen (to sign with or be traded to) the Cavs if Lebron wasn't there? Just generally speaking. Probably not, regardless of if they were in their prime. Even if they had no choice, it shows Ferry was trying to make moves in a tough spot. Duncan didn't attract many big name FA's but he attracted winners and that in it of itself is great (Parker/Manu/Bowen re-signed multiple times).... The Spurs may have been a good-to-great franchise without Duncan, but so were the Suns and Jazz and so many other teams that failed to win titles the past 30 years. I"m of the opinion Duncan made Pop great more than Pop made Duncan great - certainly. The Spurs have made pleeeenty of mistakes from drafting Beno Udrih to neglecting Luis Scola to the Richard Jefferson trade to starting Matt Bonner at center... But they've always had a top-10 all time player to fall back on.

[DMAVS41]

You got to take into account personality... the personalities of Duncan, KG, Kobe, and every player for that matter are all very different. So assumptions only go so far. We just don't know how Duncan would have affected other franchises. It's not always as simple as "the team provided me with X, Y, and Z so I'm staying"... Some players would stay where others would leave and vice versa ... Would Shaq or Ben Wallace have chosen (to sign with or be traded to) the Cavs if Lebron wasn't there? Just generally speaking. Probably not, regardless of if they were in their prime. Even if they had no choice, it shows Ferry was trying to make moves in a tough spot. Duncan didn't attract many big name FA's but he attracted winners and that in it of itself is great (Parker/Manu/Bowen re-signed multiple times).... The Spurs may have been a good-to-great franchise without Duncan, but so were the Suns and Jazz and so many other teams that failed to win titles the past 30 years. I"m of the opinion Duncan made Pop great more than Pop made Duncan great - certainly. The Spurs have made pleeeenty of mistakes from drafting Beno Udrih to neglecting Luis Scola to the Richard Jefferson trade to starting Matt Bonner at center... But they've always had a top-10 all time player to fall back on.

I don't really see this as a response addressing my point.

I never claimed the Spurs were perfect. Never claimed Duncan and his personality didn't have a transformative impact.

The Suns and Jazz not winning? What point are you trying to make here? Because that seems to support my view. That you need the all time great player and the coach/franchise in place.

The Lebron stuff? Again, you make my point for me. Great players can only do so much. Of course, like I said, they attract better players because the chances to win are higher....but that makes my point. They can only do so much. Under your view....Lebron is somehow at fault for not getting better players to the Cavs for a 7 year stretch in which Mo Williams was his 2nd best guy. I don't think you actually believe this.

Are you actually implying that the likes of Hakeem/KG were somehow letting their franchise down by not somehow bringing in better players? Do you really think Duncan actually had a hand in drafting Parker/Manu...trading for Leonard? I think Duncan absolutely had/has an impact on developing his teammates and adding to the stability of the franchise...etc, but the actual team makeup is really not something Duncan causes. Players generally just don't do that unless they are forming up in the off season...which again, Duncan almost did and absolutely for sure would have done if he had been drafted by a much worse franchise like the Wolves.

Do you fault Durant for Harden leaving? Was it Dirk's fault Cuban refused to pay Nash and hired a terrible coach in Avery?

Meh....great players absolutely make it easier for a franchise to win and attract players, but the franchise still has to do a good job. The Spurs did a great job around Duncan...the Wolves did a poor job around KG. Pretending like switching KG and Duncan and all of a sudden the Spurs aren't smart and the Wolves make great draft picks and find the right coach doesn't hold up logically in my opinion.

It clearly takes both.

[Rooster]

Greatness certainly can attract great players, but it's far more complicated than that. LeBron didn't attract any great players to the Cavs for 7 years...is that his fault?

How about KG and Hakeem? Were they not great? Most consider them among the 15 or so best players in the history of the game...but they hardly had great rosters around them for most of their prime years.

Certainly having an all time great player helps a franchise build a successful team, but you need more. You put Duncan in Minnesota with that disaster of a franchise and he's not doing anything to get them to make great draft picks or hire an all time great coach...etc. He would have just bounced to Orlando like he almost did in 00.

I kinda agree with this. If the Hawks would have figure out how to build around Nique, we would look at Nique differently on his all time great status. I don't think there's a formula but I would probably go take a close look at the Spurs front office if I were to run a team.

[SCdac]

DMavs, it'd be naive to think Tim Duncan didn't have a say in some player transactions and hasn't at least been consoled when the Spurs FO were making moves or talking about re-signing players and talking about making all the contracts work (i.e., "hey Duncan, would you be comfortable with X amount of money so we can go and get _____ and re-sign _____", or "hey Duncan, would you be comfortable playing with ______?"). He's always been at the top of the totem pole and just because he's not the cause of literally every event doesn't mean he's not a factor or didn't have a voice in many events. NBA isn't a video game where everything is automated and things are done at the push of a button regardless of what players' and coaches desires. Every franchise is like a big family and how that family functions depends on alot of variables, from money to personalities to even happenstance. Duncan joined Pop and Parker when meeting with LMA this last summer, who knows how much influence Duncan (probably the most ever paid athlete in SA's history) has had behind closed doors over the years. I think it's fair to say the franchise values his opinion especially in his prime when he had more pull as a hot commodity... You keep on saying, "can only do so much" as if a top-10 all time player isn't having a huuuuge impact vs. even a top-30 player, but you realize you can equally apply that saying to anything right? The coach can only do so much too. It's not like Spoelstra was single handedly winning the Heat championships lol. At the end of the day, Duncan probably wasn't the luckiest franchise player ever, but he was so good you could do more with less. You could surround him with 2nd year Parker, rookie Manu, and ancient Robinson and still win... because TD was an back-to-back MVP kind of player and elite defender and just easy to build around

[Derka]

It takes a ton of luck to win on the scale those two guys have and I think both of them would be the first to tell you that.

[DMAVS41]

DMavs, it'd be naive to think Tim Duncan didn't have a say in some player transactions and hasn't at least been consoled when the Spurs FO were making moves or talking about re-signing players and talking about making all the contracts work (i.e., "hey Duncan, would you be comfortable with X amount of money so we can go and get _____ and re-sign _____", or "hey Duncan, would you be comfortable playing with ______?"). He's always been at the top of the totem pole and just because he's not the cause of literally every event doesn't mean he's not a factor or didn't have a voice in many events. NBA isn't a video game where everything is automated and things are done at the push of a button regardless of what players' and coaches desires. Every franchise is like a big family and how that family functions depends on alot of variables, from money to personalities to even happenstance. Duncan joined Pop and Parker when meeting with LMA this last summer, who knows how much influence Duncan (probably the most ever paid athlete in SA's history) has had behind closed doors over the years. I think it's fair to say the franchise values his opinion especially in his prime when he had more pull as a hot commodity... You keep on saying, "can only do so much" as if a top-10 all time player isn't having a huuuuge impact vs. even a top-30 player, but you realize you can equally apply that saying to anything right? The coach can only do so much too. It's not like Spoelstra was single handedly winning the Heat championships lol. At the end of the day, Duncan probably wasn't the luckiest franchise player ever, but he was so good you could do more with less. You could surround him with 2nd year Parker, rookie Manu, and ancient Robinson and still win... because TD was an back-to-back MVP kind of player and elite defender and just easy to build around

Again...i'm not seeing a response to what I'm actually saying.

You keep making my points for me.

Of course it's not just the coach. He can only do so much.
Of course it's not just the GM and owner. They can only do so much.
Of course it's not just the star player. He can only do so much.

I'm confused as to some of your responses. You know I rank Duncan as the 4th best player ever and think as highly of him as anyone on the forum and probably as anyone in the entire basketball world.

You make it sound like I'm questioning his greatness.

My point is very clear and you are yet to respond to it. That it simply takes more than just having a great player....even if that player is Tim Duncan or Kobe or Hakeem or Bird or Shaq....etc.

What I'm curious about is if you are saying that you think the difference between a franchise like the Spurs and Wolves isn't huge and if KG and Duncan switched places that the the Wolves would somehow transform into a great franchise and the Spurs would turn into what the Wolves were.

I will repeat...of course the franchise player makes an impact on the stability of a franchise and developing players...etc...

but...

Duncan or any of those players aren't making the team make great draft picks or great trades....or make the owner spend more money...etc.

So I'll ask again...do you think Duncan's career would be any different at all if he got drafted to the Wolves instead of the Spurs? Please answer.

[Showtime2001]

Kobe has been carried.
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0614/nba_g_kobe_russell_576.jpg
http://lakers.topbuzz.com/gallery/d/280226-1/Kobe+Bryant+shakes+hands+with+Bill+Russell.JPG


Duncan IS the carrier.
http://s21.postimg.org/k96z4rc93/1402898532000_2014_06_15_Leonard_Russell.jpg
http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200706/r151985_542621.jpg

Idiot agenda driven fggt exposed.

[Wade's Rings]

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0614/nba_g_kobe_russell_576.jpg
http://lakers.topbuzz.com/gallery/d/280226-1/Kobe+Bryant+shakes+hands+with+Bill+Russell.JPG


http://s21.postimg.org/k96z4rc93/1402898532000_2014_06_15_Leonard_Russell.jpg
http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200706/r151985_542621.jpg

Idiot agenda driven fggt exposed.

:roll:

Kobe: 5 Rings/2 Finals MVPs

Duncan: 5 Rings/3 Finals MVPs

[24-Inch_Chrome]

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0614/nba_g_kobe_russell_576.jpg
http://lakers.topbuzz.com/gallery/d/280226-1/Kobe+Bryant+shakes+hands+with+Bill+Russell.JPG


http://s21.postimg.org/k96z4rc93/1402898532000_2014_06_15_Leonard_Russell.jpg
http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200706/r151985_542621.jpg

Idiot agenda driven fggt exposed.

Way to pick the two rings without Shaq. :oldlol:

3/5 > 2/5. :confusedshrug:

[Goro]

Kobe is luckier. Much of Duncan's fortunes have to do with the culture he helped establish. Kobe got tons of great teammates in spite of his attitude that pushes people away. The Lakers have a history of making championships out of stars that join them. Spurs did not have that. LMA is the first big name to join Duncan, but again, Duncan is one of the biggest reasons for that, not the decades of franchise success.

[Showtime2001]

Way to pick the two rings without Shaq. :oldlol:

3/5 > 2/5. :confusedshrug:
If Duncan is the carrier and Kobe is the one carried then Kobe would have 0 Finals MVP's and Duncan would have 5.

Next.

:yaohappy: