Poor footwork/unreliable Jumper/no real offensive and still career avg at 27/7/7

[k0kakw0rld]

Imagine he had Melo's offensive game. He would probably average 30.1 too like MJ and Wilt.

[dubeta]

MJ and Wilt played in a much faster paced era


Pace-adjusted, LeBron is the greatest scorer ever.

[Akrazotile]

Imagine he had Melo's offensive game. He would probably average 30.1 too like MJ and Wilt.


Melo shoots 41% in the playoffs.

"But he so good at teh offensing!"

[Cali Syndicate]

Easily the strongest most athletic hybrid wing player ever. Insanely explosive. High iq. Has range on his jumper, his mid range is where its most unreliable. Amongst the best finishers ever. Strong ball handling skills. Footwork is weak but his post game is still effective, similar to Blake griffin effect.

His averages are perfectly what everyone expected ~25/8/8 I think was the bar.

[kennethgriffin]

based on analytics... lebron played well in the 2011 finals



just shows how much stats can lie


you can protect your fg%.. but you can't protect your finals record


stat pad all you want... espn rankings don't win championships

[Rocketswin2013]

Most physically dominant wing ever with a high BBIQ...'tis the result.

[aj1987]

based on analytics... lebron played well in the 2011 finals



just shows how much stats can lie


you can protect your fg%.. but you can't protect your finals record


stat pad all you want... espn rankings don't win championships
6/24 and 15 PPG on 36% are apparently enough to win rings though.

[k0kakw0rld]

based on analytics... lebron played well in the 2011 finals



just shows how much stats can lie


you can protect your fg%.. but you can't protect your finals record


stat pad all you want... espn rankings don't win championships
The man has 2 rings and 6 finals. Led his team Points/assists/Rebounds every championship runs. Obviously does more than any other Superstar not called Duncan.

[kennethgriffin]

6/24 and 15 PPG on 36% are apparently enough to win rings though.


vs the east? sure



the ring in 2000 was won in game 7 of the wcf


as for 2010... everyone sucked on both ends offensively

it was a defensive matchup and nobody was better at defending/rebounding skill wise in game 7 than kobe bryant


rebounding above his season average by 10+

holding pierce and allen to 8 for 30 combined

[kennethgriffin]

The man has 2 rings and 6 finals. Led his team Points/assists/Rebounds every championship runs. Obviously does more than any other Superstar not called Duncan.




http://www.artblog.net/static/posts/2014/06/wrong/wrong_screen.jpg

[aj1987]

vs the east? sure



the ring in 2000 was won in game 7 of the wcf


as for 2010... everyone sucked on both ends offensively

it was a defensive matchup and nobody was better at defending/rebounding skill wise in game 7 than kobe bryant


rebounding above his season average by 10+

holding pierce and allen to 8 for 30 combined
:roll: :roll:

Are you gonna ignore the FACT that Kobe choked away a 3-1 series lead in the WCF?

Didn't know that they handed out rings after the WCF.

If only LeBron had the luxury of winning a Finals while averaging 15 PPG on 36% (he lost a Finals averaging 36/13/9 on 40%, FYI) or a Finals game 7 while shooting 6/24.

[AnaheimLakers24]

All that and still 2/6 :lol musg be the small ***** holding him back

[stalkerforlife]

based on analytics... lebron played well in the 2011 finals



just shows how much stats can lie


you can protect your fg%.. but you can't protect your finals record


stat pad all you want... espn rankings don't win championships

http://i58.tinypic.com/uc1zm.gif

[24-Inch_Chrome]

based on analytics... lebron played well in the 2011 finals



just shows how much stats can lie


you can protect your fg%.. but you can't protect your finals record


stat pad all you want... espn rankings don't win championships

Based on analytics he may have played well relative to your average NBA player but he did not play well relative to his own standards (by traditional or analytic measures). Stop misrepresenting what happened to push your agenda.

[Foster5k]

Still managed to run back home after the Spurs spanked his super team.

[3ball]

Imagine he had Melo's offensive game. He would probably average 30.1 too like MJ and Wilt.


:whatever:

Don't be impressed by Lebron's stats - his stats are achieved by reducing the PPG and APG of his teammates - it's a statistical fact - here's the reduction in APG:



Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)


Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), .8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)


Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'): 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)
Irving apg and assist % with... Lebron (2015):... 5.2, 25.0%


Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN: 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:. 2.2, 10.7%


Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron: 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron: 4.1, 20.1%


Source: basketball-reference.com


There's a reason the stats show Lebron lowering the assist capacity of his team - starting fives normally have only 1 ball-dominant, low-assisted player that teammates rarely throw assists to - the point guard - but Lebron's point guard style from the forward position adds a 2nd low-assisted player that teammates can't throw assists to, which lowers the assist capacity of the team - not surprisingly, Lebron's presence didn't materially improve the assist frequency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446) of his Heat and Cavs teams.. Otoh, MJ was a highly-assisted, off-ball player, so his presence significantly increased the assist frequency of his Bulls, as the data linked above shows.

Not surprisingly, Lebron's presence as an extra point guard significantly reduces the APG and assist % (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841) of teammates, while their assisted rate increases - this proves Lebron's presence as an extra point guard turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers, thus preventing the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that the Mavs, Spurs, Warriors, and 90's Bulls used (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s), where all 5 guys share the playmaking duties - since Lebron prevents the best brand of basketball, various equal or less-talented teams have pulled upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..

Ultimately, Lebron's stats lack integrity because he accumulates them at the expense of teammates.. His stat accumulation is also helped by employing a stat-friendly, easily-solvable, playground style, rather than trying to win.. His stat-friendly style is far less impressive than the superior, nuanced skill MJ needed to achieve stats within an equal-opportunity offense that can actually win.

[VengefulAngel]

:whatever:

Don't be impressed by Lebron's stats - his stats are achieved by reducing the PPG and APG of his teammates - it's a statistical fact - here's the reduction in APG:



Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)


Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), .8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)


Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'): 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)
Irving apg and assist % with... Lebron (2015):... 5.2, 25.0%


Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN: 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:. 2.2, 10.7%


Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron: 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron: 4.1, 20.1%


Source: basketball-reference.com


There's a reason the stats show Lebron lowering the assist capacity of his team - starting fives normally have only 1 ball-dominant, low-assisted player that teammates rarely throw assists to - the point guard - but Lebron's point guard style from the forward position adds a 2nd low-assisted player that teammates can't throw assists to, which lowers the assist capacity of the team - not surprisingly, Lebron's presence didn't materially improve the assist frequency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446) of his Heat and Cavs teams.. Otoh, MJ was a highly-assisted, off-ball player, so his presence significantly increased the assist frequency of his Bulls, as the data linked above shows.

Not surprisingly, Lebron's presence as an extra point guard significantly reduces the APG and assist % (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841) of teammates, while their assisted rate increases - this proves Lebron's presence as an extra point guard turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers, thus preventing the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that the Mavs, Spurs, Warriors, and 90's Bulls used (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s), where all 5 guys share the playmaking duties - since Lebron prevents the best brand of basketball, various equal or less-talented teams have pulled upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..

Ultimately, Lebron's stats lack integrity because he accumulates them at the expense of teammates.. His stat accumulation is also helped by employing a stat-friendly, easily-solvable, playground style, rather than trying to win.. His stat-friendly style is far less impressive than the superior, nuanced skill MJ needed to achieve stats within an equal-opportunity offense that can actually win.

This is the biggest load of bullshit I have seen, it just show's you its not the stats but how one interprets them which is important.

Common sense would explain every single point you raised.

[Paul George 24]

Imagine he had Melo's offensive game. He would probably average 30.1 too like MJ and Wilt.
No if

[Paul George 24]

MJ and Wilt played in a much faster paced era


Pace-adjusted, LeBron is the greatest scorer ever.
If he is so GD Then Why Leflop travelled so much

[red1]

2/6 yet still clearly better than 5/7 :roll:

how bad does that hurt you bean stans? just accept the fact that your boy will never be better :cheers:

[Gileraracer]

It's so sad that our KENG Lebron cannot shoot the ball nor has he any other offensive moves, except "the stiff arm offense".


Still our KENG though

[Mr. Jabbar]

based on analytics... lebron played well in the 2011 finals



just shows how much stats can lie


you can protect your fg%.. but you can't protect your finals record


stat pad all you want... espn rankings don't win championships

http://s1.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/wrestling-kid-impressed-gifs-of-wrestling-fans-being-wrestling-fans.gif

[Mr. Jabbar]

It's so sad that our KENG Lebron cannot shoot the ball nor has he any other offensive moves, except "the stiff arm offense".


Still our KENG though

Thats right. He IS our KENG, LeKeng absolutely runs the league and this forum despite all his flaws - which includes being all-time choking leader, statpading, colluding - among many others.

[3ball]

This is the biggest load of bullshit I have seen, it just show's you its not the stats but how one interprets them which is important.

Common sense would explain every single point you raised.


Everything the post said are facts.. They aren't "points" to be refuted, as you called them.

Forwards for all teams are highly-assisted players - this means they're assisted on 60% of more of their shots (or 50% for guys like Pierce and G Hill).. However, Lebron is assisted on only 34% (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season) of his shots - this is a point guard-level assisted rate, which lowers the assist capacity of his team relative to other teams whose forwards are all highly-assisted.

Lebron's abnormally-low assisted rate for his position is the main reason why he didn't materially improve the assist frequency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841) of his Heat and Cavs teams, while a highly-assisted off-ball players like MJ and Bird did.. So it all makes perfect sense... Unless you can find me other forwards who are assisted on only 30% of their shots.. :confusedshrug:

[34-24 Footwork]

this thread lacks video links of lebron dribbling the basketball from his left hand to his right...displaying supreme skill.

[Asukal]

Weak era with a weak king. :whatever: