Reasons why Lebron's 2015 finals performance was one of the greatest

[GIF REACTION]

LeBron James finished the 2015 NBA Finals with averages of 35.8 points, 13.3 rebounds, and 8.8 assists per game.

LeBron James is the first player in NBA Finals history to lead both teams in points, assists and rebounds for the entire series.

Without James on the floor, Cleveland’s field goal percentage dropped for 40% to 17%, and it’s offensive efficiency fell from 97.3 to 50.9.

According to Tom Haberstroh of ESPN, James accounted for 38.3% of Cleveland's points in the Finals, the second-highest percentage of team points in Finals history. He is edged only by Michael Jordan scoring 38.4% of the Bulls' points in the 1993 Finals, which Chicago won.

He was responsible for an average of 57.7 points per game on points he either scored or assisted on; which in turn, accounted for 62% of the Cavaliers’s points in the NBA Finals.

According to ESPN Stats & Information, by pulling the Elo Ratings for each team to make the NBA Finals before the series began, and taking into account a team’s home-court advantage, it was able to project each team’s chances of winning prior to the Finals. What was discovered was that James’ teams had the lowest expected winning percentage — 37% — out of any of the other players on this list. If you consider that James still managed to win two titles with those odds stacked against him, the four losses don’t seem so terrible. And if we look at the 2015 Finals by itself, we’ll realize that James did was pretty much unprecedented.

“If we look at a multi-year Statistical Plus/Minus talent projection for every NBA Finals team, this Cavs team ranks as the ninth-least talented NBA finalist since 1985. (By contrast, Cleveland’s opponents, the mighty Golden State Warriors, rank as the 14th-most talented.) Remove James, and things get even more dire; his supporting cast ranks as the third-worst team carried by its best player to the NBA Finals since 1985.”

If you were to take James’s talent rating (6.6) and replace it with that of the league-average player (0.0), the Cavaliers’s talent rating would dwindle to -0.1. So what the King ended up doing was carrying one of the three-worst supporting casts in NBA history to within two games of a championship. Of course, what we forgot to mention was that FiveThirtyEight also determined that these Golden State Warriors finished the year with the second-highest peak Elo Rating (1822) in NBA history and third-highest Composite Elo Rating of all time (1796), making them one of the best basketball teams ever. And what James did against them remarkable.

When LeBron was NOT on the floor, JR Smith, Matthew Dellavedova, James Jones and Iman Shumpert DID NOT MAKE A SHOT in the NBA Finals

Without LeBron James on the floor this series.
JR Smith 0/9 FG
Delly 0/7 FG
J. Jones 0/3 FG
Shumpert 0/2 FG
Total 0/21 FG


http://giant.gfycat.com/FlimsySpitefulButterfly.gif

[sportjames23]

Don't mean a thing without the ring.

[GIF REACTION]

The number 1 hater logic

"But he shot 40% bro"

His FG% and eFG% was VIRTUALLY the same as the Cavs FG% and eFG%

It's more like he was the only one doing anything, and this was CLEARLY evident when he went to the bench (When the Cavs shot 17%)

[!@#$%Vectors!@#]

[QUOTE=GIF REACTION]LeBron James finished the 2015 NBA Finals with averages of 35.8 points, 13.3 rebounds, and 8.8 assists per game.

LeBron James is the first player in NBA Finals history to lead both teams in points, assists and rebounds for the entire series.

Without James on the floor, Cleveland

[Gileraracer]

The problem is you team will never win when your player accounted for nearly 40% of the teams points shoots 39% from the floor.


In other words: as long as LeBron takes as many shots as he did and hits as few as he did Cleveland will not win a championship.

[ArbitraryWater]

It truly was historic.. watching it, it was insane... I didn't expect him to keep coming and coming with those performances, after he was so tired out in usually all the 2nd halfs with the weight he had to carry. Cemented his top 5 spot all time :applause:

[sd3035]

Shooting below 40% against single coverage is horrendous choking, what an offensive liability. He cost his team at chance at victory

choker n- an unfortunate person who is unable to perform effectively because of nervous tension or agitation; "he could win if he wasn't a choker"

https://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp332/joelixng/choke.jpg

[GIF REACTION]

https://i1.wp.com/static.fjcdn.com/gifs/My+reaction+to+most+people+on+facebook.+Stupid+peo ple+post_42e728_3623685.gif

[r15mohd]

Shooting below 40% against single coverage is horrendous choking, what an offensive liability. He cost his team at chance at victory

choker n- an unfortunate person who is unable to perform effectively because of nervous tension or agitation; "he could win if he wasn't a choker"

https://i425.photobucket.com/albums/pp332/joelixng/choke.jpg


leads a team to 5th straight finals appearance, and really in 2015 was the sole reason they are even relevant in the Finals after the Kyrie and Love injuries in previous rounds,and to that even stole 2 games from GSW when they were predicted to be swept....yet he cost the team. :rolleyes:

idiots will be idiots :facepalm

[Akrazotile]

Also the psychological intimidation and gamesmanship he showed by whipping out his black cobra in front of a national audience had Curry shook af. Iggy got lucky that the weight of having to carry the cavs combined with the weight of the package he was carrying eventually caught up with Bron. But it's remarkable that Lebron led both teams in every major category while the league MVP couldnt manage to pull a single vote for FMVP.

There is a reason my very precisely calculated Objective GOAT Rank analytics has 1. Lebron 2. Mikan 3. Kareem, and that was on full display in the finals, just like Lebron's magic johnson.

[GIF REACTION]

Also the psychological intimidation and gamesmanship he showed by whipping out his black cobra in front of a national audience had Curry shook af. Iggy got lucky that the weight of having to carry the cavs combined with the weight of the package he was carrying eventually caught up with Bron. But it's remarkable that Lebron led both teams in every major category while the league MVP couldnt manage to pull a single vote for FMVP.

There is a reason my very precisely calculated Objective GOAT Rank analytics has 1. Lebron 2. Mikan 3. Kareem, and that was on full display in the finals, just like Lebron's magic johnson.
Agreed

:applause:

[Mass Debator]

Lebron is the freakin system. Off the floor, the Cavs have no system. He doesn't allow anything else because he isn't very good off ball, and he wants to feel in constant control. Free lancing with a bunch of scrubs will always result in a low FG% so comparing the differences of him on and off the floor is pointless. Plus the only decent iso player was streaky JR. In the end, it's exactly as Gileraracer said:


The problem is you team will never win when your player accounted for nearly 40% of the teams points shoots 39% from the floor.


In other words: as long as LeBron takes as many shots as he did and hits as few as he did Cleveland will not win a championship.

[GIF REACTION]

Lebron is the freakin system. Off the floor, the Cavs have no system. He doesn't allow anything else because he isn't very good off ball, and he wants to feel in constant control. Free lancing with a bunch of scrubs will always result in a low FG% so comparing the differences of him on and off the floor is pointless. Plus the only decent iso player was streaky JR. In the end, it's exactly as Gileraracer said:
You miss the point, young kid.

If you weren't aware, 3 starters were out injured. The cavs had nothing else to use. Lebron was all that was left. It was a colossal effort that defied the odds...on a historic scale.

Lebron was forced to dominate the ball. That was the point. If he tried playing off ball with JR Smith, Delly, James Jones, and Mozgov... It wouldn't have worked very well.

[r15mohd]

Lebron is the freakin system. Off the floor, the Cavs have no system. He doesn't allow anything else because he isn't very good off ball, and he wants to feel in constant control. Free lancing with a bunch of scrubs will always result in a low FG% so comparing the differences of him on and off the floor is pointless. Plus the only decent iso player was streaky JR. In the end, it's exactly as Gileraracer said:


contradicting your own stance...if the only player who was even decent was JR to assist him in scoring, and JR didn't show up as everyone agrees, Lebron had no choice but to have that high a usage on the Cavs.

pretty plain to see this, you even state it yourself. who was supposed to be the player to provide more? the Cavs were a d-league squad without Lebron's input this past finals, and that showed heavily in their inability to create their own shot or even make a shot for that matter.

[aj1987]

Lebron is the freakin system. Off the floor, the Cavs have no system. He doesn't allow anything else because he isn't very good off ball, and he wants to feel in constant control. Free lancing with a bunch of scrubs will always result in a low FG% so comparing the differences of him on and off the floor is pointless. Plus the only decent iso player was streaky JR. In the end, it's exactly as Gileraracer said:
My post from another thread.

LeBron was purposefully slowing down the pace. You don't win against the Warriors (with a garbage ass team no less) playing run and gun ball. They're gonna out shoot you and destroy you. The Cavs would've lost in 4 straight blowouts if they played uptempo basketball.

He couldn't hand over the playmaking duties to others nor was he able to let others make decisions, because they're low IQ players. Shump and JR were terrible and can't create for others. Delly had a hard time bringing the ball up court. Actually, Shump is a below average playmaker, but the other two are worse than garbage.

The game in which Mozgov put up 28 points, the Cavs lost by 21 points. LeBron struggled shooting the ball, but he did have 20/12/8. 12 rebounds and 8 assists (oh wait, rebounds and assists only matter when it's Bird). Delly went 3-14, JR 2-12, Shump 2-9, JJ 0-3, etc.. A combined 18% FG%. Literally no one could hit a shot. To top it off, the Warriors went small and Moz couldn't guard anyone on the court. Bogut was benched and Green was playing at the C.

You're blaming LeBron for Moz not getting more involved in game 5 after the 28 point game, when in fact, the COACH played him 9 minutes. He played over 30 minutes in game 6 and LeBron got him involved. Dude put up 17/12/4.

For the series, the 3 guys who played the 3rd, 4th, and 5th highest minutes managed to score a combined 25.5 points on sub 40% TS. 29% FG% and 28% 3pt%.

[ralph_i_el]

My post from another thread.

LeBron was purposefully slowing down the pace. You don't win against the Warriors (with a garbage ass team no less) playing run and gun ball. They're gonna out shoot you and destroy you. The Cavs would've lost in 4 straight blowouts if they played uptempo basketball.

He couldn't hand over the playmaking duties to others nor was he able to let others make decisions, because they're low IQ players. Shump and JR were terrible and can't create for others. Delly had a hard time bringing the ball up court. Actually, Shump is a below average playmaker, but the other two are worse than garbage.

The game in which Mozgov put up 28 points, the Cavs lost by 21 points. LeBron struggled shooting the ball, but he did have 20/12/8. 12 rebounds and 8 assists (oh wait, rebounds and assists only matter when it's Bird). Delly went 3-14, JR 2-12, Shump 2-9, JJ 0-3, etc.. A combined 18% FG%. Literally no one could hit a shot. To top it off, the Warriors went small and Moz couldn't guard anyone on the court. Bogut was benched and Green was playing at the C.

You're blaming LeBron for Moz not getting more involved in game 5 after the 28 point game, when in fact, the COACH played him 9 minutes. He played over 30 minutes in game 6 and LeBron got him involved. Dude put up 17/12/4.

For the series, the 3 guys who played the 3rd, 4th, and 5th highest minutes managed to score a combined 25.5 points on sub 40% TS. 29% FG% and 28% 3pt%.

^facts

[Magic 32]

37.9 PPG, 4.7 RPG, 7.4 APG, 49 fg%

http://images.complex.com/complex/image/upload/t_article_image/xht06yzkbx83lzgecuev.jpg

Better and actually deserved to win.

[Fudge]

King Thick Daddy. :bowdown:

[ShawkFactory]

My post from another thread.

LeBron was purposefully slowing down the pace. You don't win against the Warriors (with a garbage ass team no less) playing run and gun ball. They're gonna out shoot you and destroy you. The Cavs would've lost in 4 straight blowouts if they played uptempo basketball.

He couldn't hand over the playmaking duties to others nor was he able to let others make decisions, because they're low IQ players. Shump and JR were terrible and can't create for others. Delly had a hard time bringing the ball up court. Actually, Shump is a below average playmaker, but the other two are worse than garbage.

The game in which Mozgov put up 28 points, the Cavs lost by 21 points. LeBron struggled shooting the ball, but he did have 20/12/8. 12 rebounds and 8 assists (oh wait, rebounds and assists only matter when it's Bird). Delly went 3-14, JR 2-12, Shump 2-9, JJ 0-3, etc.. A combined 18% FG%. Literally no one could hit a shot. To top it off, the Warriors went small and Moz couldn't guard anyone on the court. Bogut was benched and Green was playing at the C.

You're blaming LeBron for Moz not getting more involved in game 5 after the 28 point game, when in fact, the COACH played him 9 minutes. He played over 30 minutes in game 6 and LeBron got him involved. Dude put up 17/12/4.

For the series, the 3 guys who played the 3rd, 4th, and 5th highest minutes managed to score a combined 25.5 points on sub 40% TS. 29% FG% and 28% 3pt%.
Don't bring your facts and logic in here..

[aj1987]

37.9 PPG, 4.7 RPG, 7.4 APG, 49 fg%

http://images.complex.com/complex/image/upload/t_article_image/xht06yzkbx83lzgecuev.jpg

Better and actually deserved to win.
http://i.imgur.com/SVrMXWA.png

[Magic 32]

http://i.imgur.com/SVrMXWA.png

Nice rebound numbers.

Too bad everything else is TT level.

[aj1987]

Nice rebound numbers.

Too bad everything else is TT level.
Yep. Role-players and scrubs. Those fools cost West a ring. Dude would probably be in the top 10 if it wasn't for Wilt's choking. Just like how JR, Shump, and Delly not being able to shoot for shit cost the Cav's a ring. A combined 28% FG and 29% from the 3? :puke:

[Foster5k]

http://giant.gfycat.com/FlimsySpitefulButterfly.gif
Wow! Finally, a Super Sayian with a hairline worse than Vegeta.

[Smay84]

Also the psychological intimidation and gamesmanship he showed by whipping out his black cobra in front of a national audience had Curry shook af. Iggy got lucky that the weight of having to carry the cavs combined with the weight of the package he was carrying eventually caught up with Bron. But it's remarkable that Lebron led both teams in every major category while the league MVP couldnt manage to pull a single vote for FMVP.

There is a reason my very precisely calculated Objective GOAT Rank analytics has 1. Lebron 2. Mikan 3. Kareem, and that was on full display in the finals, just like Lebron's magic johnson.
Why is dudes bragging on another guys package 😑😑😑

[Rocketswin2013]

GOAT-level impact series. Turned a WOAT(for finals standards) level offense into an almost average one against the best defense in over a decade.


While putting them in position to stop the leagues most explosive offensive through taking nearly their entire transition game away.

[ArbitraryWater]

Lebron is the freakin system. Off the floor, the Cavs have no system. He doesn't allow anything else because he isn't very good off ball, and he wants to feel in constant control. Free lancing with a bunch of scrubs will always result in a low FG% so comparing the differences of him on and off the floor is pointless. Plus the only decent iso player was streaky JR. In the end, it's exactly as Gileraracer said:

yay, here is one of the newer claims about LeBron.. should I wait for Indian guy to burry shit like this per usual? aj already trashed you, though.

[OldSchoolBBall]

GOAT-level impact series. Turned a WOAT(for finals standards) level offense into an almost average one against the best defense in over a decade.



Amazing what Lebron fans will convince themselves of lol. :oldlol:

I do think Lebron had a great series - efficiency aside, it takes a ton of energy to be the do-it-all monster he was that series. But it's not even in my top 10 Finals series. That doesn't make it bad by any stretch, though.

[Rocketswin2013]

Amazing what Lebron fans will convince themselves of lol. :oldlol:

I do think Lebron had a great series - efficiency aside, it takes a ton of energy to be the do-it-all monster he was that series. But it's not even in my top 10 Finals series. That doesn't make it bad by any stretch, though.
GS faced good offenses outside of Cleveland and posted the best DRTG since the '04 pistons...

[!@#$%Vectors!@#]

Wow! Finally, a Super Sayian with a hairline worse than Vegeta.

As a huge Lebron stan I've gotta admit that we of theLebron Family are taking L's left and right. This will keep happening until next playoffs. We have things to prove. :lol :lol :hammerhead: :hammerhead:

[Dr Hawk]

37.9 PPG, 4.7 RPG, 7.4 APG, 49 fg%

http://images.complex.com/complex/image/upload/t_article_image/xht06yzkbx83lzgecuev.jpg

Better and actually deserved to win.

This

[3ball]

Without James on the floor, Cleveland’s field goal percentage dropped for 40% to 17%, and it’s offensive efficiency fell from 97.3 to 50.9.


Who cares - there isn't a single all-time great whose team didn't have far worse stats when they weren't on the floor.

Why is it a big deal when it happens for Lebron?... The only reason people make a bigger deal today is because we now have stats with fancy names to measure it.





According to Tom Haberstroh of ESPN, Lebron scored 38.3% of his team's points, which is 2nd in history to Michael Jordan's 38.4% in the 1993 Finals.


Here's the difference - in 1993 Finals, MJ shot 53.3 eFG% compared to 51.1% for the team.. So MJ's 33 shot attempts per game were positive expected value versus letting his teammates shoot.. But Lebron shot 43.1 eFG% compared to 43.2% for the team... So when Lebron shot the ball, it wasn't necessarily positive expected value versus letting his teammates shoot.

There's an ESPN article (http://stats.nba.com/featured/sportvu_finals_game6_2015_06_17.html?ls=iref:nba:s pecials) showing that in Game 6, Lebron shot the ball on pnr's 42% of the time, compared to 8% for Curry... This occurred because Curry passed to Draymond Green and Iggy 77% of the time either of them screened, compared to 0% for Tristan and 15% for Mosgov when they screened Lebron.. Again, Tristan and Mosgov shot FAR better than Lebron, but the pnr stats show Lebron passed up their higher efficiency to shoot himself at much lower efficiency.. :confusedshrug:





When LeBron was NOT on the floor, JR Smith, Matthew Dellavedova, James Jones and Iman Shumpert DID NOT MAKE A SHOT in the NBA Finals


It's a statistical fact that Lebron turns teammates from playmakers (higher apg, lower assisted rate) into play-finishers (lower apg, higher assisted rate)... So his teammates have a much tougher transition when he goes to the bench - they have to become playmakers all of a sudden after being accustomed to play-finishing while Lebron dominates the ball.

Otoh, truly great basketball players don't reduce the APG of teammates by being ball-dominant - guys like Bird, MJ and Curry had the skill to spend more time off-ball, thus allowing teammates to retain their playmaking duties.

Allowing teammates to be playmakers helps the team win more because when Bird, MJ or Curry go to the bench, their teammates were already playmaking, so they don't have to make this big transition from play-finisher to playmaker like Lebron's teammates must do..
.

[!@#$%Vectors!@#]

Who cares - there isn't a single all-time great whose team didn't have far worse stats when they weren't on the floor.

Why is it a big deal when it happens for Lebron?... The only reason people make a bigger deal today is because we now have stats with fancy names to measure it.



Here's the difference - in 1993 Finals, MJ shot 53.3 eFG% compared to 51.1% for the team.. So MJ's 33 shot attempts per game were positive expected value versus letting his teammates shoot.. But Lebron shot 43.1 eFG% compared to 43.2% for the team as a whole... So when Lebron shot the ball, it wasn't necessarily positive expected value versus letting his teammates shoot.

There's an ESPN article (http://stats.nba.com/featured/sportvu_finals_game6_2015_06_17.html?ls=iref:nba:s pecials) showing that in Game 6, Lebron shot the ball on pnr's 42% of the time, compared to 8% for Curry... This occurred because Curry passed to Draymond Green and Iggy 77% of the time either of them screened, compared to 0% for Tristan and 15% for Mosgov when they screened Lebron.. Again, Tristan and Mosgov shot FAR better than Lebron, but the pnr stats show Lebron was passed up their higher efficiency to shoot himself at much lower efficiency.. :confusedshrug:



It's a statistical fact that Lebron turns teammates from playmakers (higher apg, lower assisted rate) into play-finishers (lower apg, higher assisted rate)... So his teammates have a much tougher transition when he goes to the bench - they have to become playmakers all of a sudden after being accustomed to play-finishing while Lebron dominates the ball.

Otoh, truly great basketball players don't reduce the APG of teammates by being ball-dominant - guys like Bird, MJ and Curry had the skill to spend more time off-ball, thus allowing teammates to retain their playmaking duties.

Allowing teammates to be playmakers helps the team win more because when Bird, MJ or Curry go to the bench, their teammates were already playmaking, so they don't have to make this big transition from play-finisher to playmaker like Lebron's teammates must do..
.

:applause:

[RidonKs]

mostly empty stats

the series was over as soon as the game one buzzer sounded

[!@#$%Vectors!@#]

mostly empty stats

the series was over as soon as the game one buzzer sounded

As a Huger lebron Fan, Lebron didn't get his teammates involved enough. This is the sole reason he lost to AM and shot 37%

[RidonKs]

As a Huger lebron Fan, Lebron didn't get his teammates involved enough. This is the sole reason he lost to AM and shot 37%
the rest of the cavs gave up as soon as irving went down. maybe lebron gave up too, i can remember his body language indicating that, but he was the only guy with the talent to keep going.

there were moments in games 2 and 3 where you felt like the cavs had a chance. then the warriors would knock down multiple threes in under a minute a double digit lead was erased and you realized the cavs are playing over their heads and the warriors down to the competition.

that was my impression anywa

[Monta Ellis MVP]

As a Huger lebron Fan, Lebron didn't get his teammates involved enough. This is the sole reason he lost to AM and shot 37%

Big LeBron Fan here, I wanna say this is true. LeBron was good but he needs to develop some sort of midrange game so he can shoot better than 37%. He was the reason why the Cavs lost.

[RidonKs]

for the record, i'm not a huge lebron fan

[DonDadda59]

I hate to be 'that guy' but...

[INDENT]When guarded by Iguodala in the NBA Finals, 66 of James

[3ball]

When guarded by Iguodala in the NBA Finals, 66 of James’ 77 field goal attempts were contested (87 percent), with James shooting 30 percent on those attempts. James shot 41 percent when his shot was contested when guarded by anyone else.

James shot 31 percent on 2-point field goals when guarded by Iguodala in the NBA Finals. He shot 45 percent on 2-pointers when guarded by anyone else.

James also committed 13 of his 21 turnovers in the NBA Finals when guarded by Iguodala.

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106718/iguodala-heads-all-playoff-defensive-team

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view1/3213479/debbie-downer-ii-o.gif



That's the elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about.. And people are actually trying to compare Lebron's 2015 Finals to MJ's 1993, when there's an obvious statistical difference:

In 1993 Finals, MJ shot 53.3 eFG% compared to 51.1% for the team.. So MJ's 33 shot attempts per game were positive expected value versus letting his teammates shoot.. But Lebron shot 43.1 eFG% compared to 43.2% for the team... So when Lebron shot the ball, it wasn't necessarily positive expected value versus letting his teammates shoot.

There's an ESPN article (http://stats.nba.com/featured/sportvu_finals_game6_2015_06_17.html?ls=iref:nba:s pecials) showing that in Game 6, Lebron shot the ball on pnr's 42% of the time, compared to 8% for Curry... This occurred because Curry passed to Draymond Green and Iggy 77% of the time either of them screened, compared to 0% for Tristan and 15% for Mosgov when they screened Lebron.. Again, Tristan and Mosgov shot FAR better than Lebron, but the pnr stats show Lebron passed up their higher efficiency to shoot himself at much lower efficiency.. :confusedshrug:

[GIF REACTION]

Simply a legendary finals performance.

[DMV2]

First 3 games were top 5 Finals performance. Legendary for sure.

But final 3 games were above average. Iggy was a big factor as pointed out by DonDadda.

Bron was actually bad in Game 4.

Add it all together, it was a good Finals performance but not legendary.

[JerrySeinfeld]

leads a team to 5th straight finals appearance

eastern conference bro

Jordan, Kobe, Durant, numerous others would shit on the defense the Warriors employed vs LeBron. And I'm not talking 35ppg on 39% either.

[JerrySeinfeld]

First 3 games were top 5 Finals performance. Legendary for sure.

But final 3 games were above average. Iggy was a big factor as pointed out by DonDadda.

Bron was actually bad in Game 4.

Add it all together, it was a good Finals performance but not legendary.

yeah, especially since his worst play came in the 4th quarter and OT, that alone makes it far from legendary when you get handed the L

/thread

[kennethgriffin]

reasons why lebrons 2015 finals performance was not one of the greatest



a) he shot 38%

b) he shot 30% vs andre iguodala

c) he shot 27% outside of 5 feet

d) he lost finals mvp to the player he was guarding ( again )

e) he lost finals mvp to the player he was guarding that wasn't even an allstar ( again )

f) he lost finals mvp to the player he was guarding whom wasn't even a starter the entire season

g) he settled for fadaways and rarely posted up at all

h) he stat padded to get those numbers

i) he refused to feed mozgof even though he had a clear advantage inside

j) he only won 2 games. not even 3 OR EVEN the manditory 4 to win the series in order to be considered one of the greatest finals performances

k) it made him 2 for 6 overall in nba finals

l) he shrugged off the finals like it was nothing

j) he said he would rather be on vacation than risk losing in the finals

k) he came back the next season asking for 2 more months off

L) take one OP

[Heavincent]

Meh, Iguodala wrecked him.

[GIF REACTION]

How many points did iggi get

how many Lebron get

/thread

[!@#$%Vectors!@#]

[QUOTE=DonDadda59]I hate to be 'that guy' but...

[INDENT]When guarded by Iguodala in the NBA Finals, 66 of James

[4 Inches]

All I gotta say is that OP has a top 3 avatar on ISH.

[!@#$%Vectors!@#]

All I gotta say is that OP has a top 3 avatar on ISH.
:bowdown: :applause: I agree

[JerrySeinfeld]

Lebron getting shook every finals

https://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/lebronkawhi.gif

http://sportsgif.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/LeBron-James-Injury-GIF.gif

http://nsa28.casimages.com/img/2011/09/05/110905062930416927.gif

add LeBron to the list of people to flop themselves into an injury

1. CP3
2. Lebald

[3ball]

According to Tom Haberstroh of ESPN, Lebron scored 38.3% of his team's points, which is 2nd in history to Michael Jordan's 38.4% in the 1993 Finals.


Here's the difference - in 1993 Finals, MJ shot 53.3 eFG% compared to 51.1% for the team.. So MJ's 33 shot attempts per game were positive expected value versus letting his teammates shoot.. Otoh, Lebron shot 43.1 eFG% compared to 43.2% for the team... So when Lebron shot the ball, it wasn't necessarily positive expected value versus letting his teammates shoot.

There's an ESPN article (http://stats.nba.com/featured/sportvu_finals_game6_2015_06_17.html?ls=iref:nba:s pecials) showing that in Game 6, Lebron shot the ball on pnr's 42% of the time, compared to 8% for Curry... This occurred because Curry passed to Draymond Green and Iggy 77% of the time either of them screened, compared to 0% for Tristan and 15% for Mosgov when they screened Lebron.. Again, Tristan and Mosgov shot FAR better than Lebron, but the pnr stats show Lebron passed up their higher efficiency to shoot himself at much lower efficiency.. :confusedshrug:

[sportjames23]

I've never seen a superstar have his flaws broken down and pointed out succinctly as I've seen 3ball do with Lebron. Broken down like a fraction.

And I say this as a huge Lebron fan.

[GIF REACTION]

Thread cliffs;

Lebron had one of the greatest finals of all time, and this is supported by the statistical data

[knicksman]

Bran making history. Hes entering the wilt territory by losing last season:banana: :banana:

[Gileraracer]

Thread cliffs;

Lebron had one of the greatest finals of all time, and this is supported by the statistical data

which statistic, 2/6 or the 38%?

[ShawkFactory]

The revisionist history on both sides is shocking.

It was the greatest finals ever....it was a terrible finals. Both of you are wrong.

[ArbitraryWater]

which statistic, 2/6 or the 38%?

whats 38%? Accounting for 38% of their points, aka the 2nd highest percentage ever?

Or do you mean 40%, as in his shooting percentage?


Meh, Iguodala wrecked him.

Hate to break it to ya, but it was better than any Kobe finals, ever, easily :yaohappy:

[Gileraracer]

Or do you mean 40%, as in his shooting percentage?


Nope I am sure it was <40%. Would bet on that straight away

[dankok8]

Two questions for 3ball...

1) Which team was better defensively, the 1993 Suns or the 2015 Warriors?

2) Which player had a stronger supporting cast in the finals, 1993 Jordan or 2015 Lebron?

This provides important context to be able to compare those two performances.

[ShawkFactory]

The scenario shown below with the strongside completely cleared-out and no double-teaming is the most optimal/easiest scenario that a player can possibly face when going 1-on-1 - Lebron faced this scenario 15 times per game in the Finals (that was his average isolations per game in Finals):


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2015/uAh_p8.gif


MJ never got this kind of optimal clearout for 2 reasons... First of all, teams in 1993 averaged 8 three-point attempts per game, compared to 23 per game today - so coaches almost never put 4 guys behind the 3-point line on ANY possession, let alone on the far weakside to clearout the strongside..

Secondly, teams almost never let MJ go 1-on-1 all alone like that - he would be double-teamed instantly in the scenario Lebron faced.. You're probably balking at this notion, probably because you haven't seen a lot of MJ, and don't realize he was frequently double-teamed 10+ consecutive possessions (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s) in the playoffs - there are more examples (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210) of this in this thread.. However, it's important to realize WHY Lebron wasn't doubled and MJ would be.

The 27 shots per game that Lebron took in 2015 playoffs can't be achieved on all 3-and-D.. But unfortunately, Lebron is poor at the additional midrange and 1-on-1 required of high volume shooting - this is statistical fact - since he can't shoot well at high volume, he doesn't require/command a double team to PREVENT high volume.. This is why he wasn't doubled in the 2015 Finals - it behooved the Warriors to induce Lebron's poor shooting at high volume by not double-teaming - there's no danger in letting Lebron shoot 39% - the more shots he takes at 39%, the better for the Warrior defense.. Otoh, MJ's midrange and 1-on-1 efficiency was elite, so his efficiency was well-equipped to handle the additional midrange and 1-on-1 required of high volume shooting and therefore required a double-team.. It would NOT behoove any team to let MJ shoot 50% at high volume.



You're misunderstanding the difference between the Suns and Warriors.. The stats indicate the Suns were a much better team than the Warriors because the Bulls and MJ needed to produce far more to defeat them than the Cavs needed to beat the Warriors... Lebron won 2 games by shooting 39% with bad contributions from numerous teammates.. If he shoots 51%, he wins the series easily.

Otoh, MJ actually did shoot 51% while scoring 15% more than Lebron (41 ppg to 36 ppg), AND he got better contributions from teammates... But this was BARELY enough to beat the Suns - remarkably, both teams averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ORtg in the series.. So every ounce of MJ's 41 ppg on 51% was needed to squeak by the Suns, but those stats would've easily beaten the Warriors..

And of course, the Warriors wouldn't have been able to single-cover MJ and let him go 1-on-1 all alone... He was used to facing packed strongsides and paints (seen below), so he would run roughshod over the wide open strongside and paint that Lebron faced.




Btw, just an FYI - the 538 rankings of supporting casts (https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png?w=610&h=2028) shows that MJ won 2 championships (1991 and 1993) with a weaker supporting cast than Lebron ever won a ring with - both the 1991 and 1993 casts are ranked near the bottom and far below Lebron's 2012 and 2013 rings... Another fyi - I think the list is bullshit... It ranks Bird and Magic's teams, the most stacked teams of all time, behind basically everyone and there are tons of other rankings that make no sense - I only bring up the list because a lot of OTHER people put faith in it, and it backs up the fact that MJ won with less help than Lebron ever did.
They also show MJ had the strongest supporting cast of all time 1996 and one of the strongest of all time in 98

[Just2McFly]

I can't believe Iggy got a finals MVP for guarding a dude that has been playing basketball since 2011 with only like 10 months off total in those 5 years. Lebron only shot that low due to him being gassed. His legs werent there or else he would have been averaging 40+ on GS.

[Goro]

OP is a Kings fan. Of course he celebrates losing.

[All Net]

Wow so many idiotic comments in this thread but when it comes to Lebron hardly a surprise

Lebron had a great finals series and the fact he took a great Warriors team to 6 games without Love and Kyrie was stunning. There is only so much one man can do and by the end of that series he was completely gassed.

How many greats could win a series without their next best players?

[LikeMike]

Wow so many idiotic comments in this thread but when it comes to Lebron hardly a surprise

Lebron had a great finals series and the fact he took a great Warriors team to 6 games without Love and Kyrie was stunning. There is only so much one man can do and by the end of that series he was completely gassed.

How many greats could win a series without their next best players?

They won 2 games, and Delly was the key to those wins.

[aj1987]

They won 2 games, and Delly was the key to those wins.
Sure, but they aren't even sniffing a win without LeBron's 40/14/10/3/2 over those 2 games. Would've gotten blowout by 30+.

[All Net]

They won 2 games, and Delly was the key to those wins.
They won two games because of Lebron

With him off the floor all those role players couldn't hit a shot

[Lebron23]

All Net schooling this retards. I hope Jeff is going to give you some powers to IP Ban these retards for 6-12 months.

[Gileraracer]

All Net schooling this retards. I hope Jeff is going to give you some powers to IP Ban these retards for 6-12 months.

Good idea, ban everyone that is not a total Lebron stan. As a proud member of KENG family I have to support that. :applause:

[ralph_i_el]

Two questions for 3ball...

1) Which team was better defensively, the 1993 Suns or the 2015 Warriors?

2) Which player had a stronger supporting cast in the finals, 1993 Jordan or 2015 Lebron?

This provides important context to be able to compare those two performances.


He won't answer.

Ducking

[pegasus]

He couldn't make a shot to save his life, yet we are gonna call it a "great" performance?:lol You don't need all-start teammates to take a lightly contested shot and make it, so I don't want to hear that "Love and Kyrie were hurt" excuse. For those of you who don't know how to shoot, there are only two hands needed, and they kind of need to belong to the same player.

[livinglegend]

He was the real FMVP.
A really great performance by a great player.

[livinglegend]

He couldn't make a shot to save his life, yet we are gonna call it a "great" performance?:lol You don't need all-start teammates to take a lightly contested shot and make it, so I don't want to hear that "Love and Kyrie were hurt" excuse. For those of you who don't know how to shoot, there are only two hands needed, and they kind of need to belong to the same player.

Just shows how great he is.
Even with his shot off, he still dominated the series.
Great players find other ways.

[pegasus]

Just shows how great he is.
Even with his shot off, he still dominated the series.
Great players find other ways.
He only dominated his own teammates as usual. Played like a true ball-hog.

[livinglegend]

He only dominated his own teammates as usual. Played like a true ball-hog.

You are absolutely right.
And his teammates' stats without him on the floor clearly proves your claim. :facepalm

[Paul George 24]

[QUOTE=GIF REACTION]LeBron James finished the 2015 NBA Finals with averages of 35.8 points, 13.3 rebounds, and 8.8 assists per game.

LeBron James is the first player in NBA Finals history to lead both teams in points, assists and rebounds for the entire series.

Without James on the floor, Cleveland

[3ball]

He won't answer.

Ducking


:no:






Two questions for 3ball...

1) Which team was better defensively, the 1993 Suns or the 2015 Warriors?



The scenario shown below with the strongside completely cleared-out and no double-teaming is the most optimal/easiest scenario that a player can possibly face when going 1-on-1 - with these strongside clearouts, notice how all 4 help defenders are on the far weakside, and therefore furthest from helping.. Lebron faced this scenario 15 times per game in the Finals (that was his average isolations per game in Finals):


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2015/uAh_p8.gif


MJ never got this kind of optimal clearout for 2 reasons... First of all, teams in 1993 averaged 8 three-point attempts per game, compared to 22 per game today - so coaches almost never put 4 guys behind the 3-point line on ANY possession, let alone putting them on the far weakside to clearout the strongside..

Secondly, teams almost never let MJ go 1-on-1 all alone like that - he would be double-teamed instantly in the scenario Lebron faced.. You're might be balking at this notion, probably because you haven't seen a lot of MJ, and don't realize he was frequently double-teamed 10+ consecutive possessions (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s) - there are more examples of every-possession doubles on MJ in this thread (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210).. However, it's important to realize WHY Lebron wasn't doubled and MJ would be.

The 27 shots per game that Lebron took in 2015 playoffs can't be achieved on all 3-and-D.. But unfortunately, Lebron has poor efficiency at the additional midrange and 1-on-1 required of high volume shooting - this is statistical fact - since he can't shoot well at high volume, he doesn't require/command a double team to PREVENT high volume.. This is why he wasn't doubled in the 2015 Finals.. It behooved the Warriors to induce Lebron's poor shooting at high volume by not double-teaming - the more shots he takes at 39%, the better for the Warrior defense.. Otoh, MJ's midrange and 1-on-1 efficiency was elite, so he could shoot well at high volume and required a double-team to prevent him from high shot volume - obviously, it wouldn't behoove any team to let MJ shoot 50% at high volume.





2) Which player had a stronger supporting cast in the finals, 1993 Jordan or 2015 Lebron?


You're misunderstanding the difference between the Suns and Warriors.. The stats indicate the Suns were a much better team than the Warriors because the Bulls and MJ needed to produce far more to defeat them than the Cavs needed to beat the Warriors... Lebron won 2 games by shooting 39% with bad contributions from numerous teammates.. If he shoots 51%, he wins the series easily.

Otoh, MJ actually did shoot 51% while scoring 15% more than Lebron (41 ppg to 36 ppg), AND he got better contributions from teammates... But this was BARELY enough to beat the Suns - remarkably, both teams averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ORtg in the series.. So while every ounce of MJ's 41 ppg on 51% was needed to squeak by the Suns, those stats would've easily beaten the Warriors..

And of course, the Warriors wouldn't have single-covered MJ and let him enjoy the secluded isolations Lebron got.. Due to lack of 3-point shooting to draw defenders to the perimeter or space the weakside, MJ was used to facing packed strongsides and paints (seen below) - so he would run roughshod over the wide open strongside and paint that Lebron faced (seen above).


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-14-2015/KRt-Ni.gif


Btw, just an FYI - the 538 rankings of supporting casts (https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png?w=610&h=2028) shows that MJ won 2 championships (1991 and 1993) with a weaker supporting cast than Lebron ever won a ring with - both the 1991 and 1993 casts are ranked near the bottom and far below Lebron's 2012 and 2013 rings... Another fyi - I think the list is bullshit... It ranks Bird and Magic's teams, the most stacked teams of all time, behind basically everyone and there are tons of other rankings that make no sense - I only bring up the list because a lot of OTHER people put faith in it, and it backs up the fact that MJ won with less help than Lebron ever did..

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2015/uAh_p8.gif


How many greats could win a series without their next best players?



The 538 rankings of supporting casts (https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/205/05/paine-datalab-lebron-cast-2.png?w=610&h=2028) shows that MJ won 2 championships (1991 and 1993) with a weaker supporting cast than Lebron ever won a ring with - both the 1991 and 1993 casts are ranked near the bottom and far below Lebron's 2012 and 2013 rings..

So could MJ have won with EVEN WEAKER supporting casts, like what Lebron had in these Finals... Maybe, but how do we know?.. All we know is that MJ won with less than Lebron ever did.

We ALSO know that MJ wouldn't have shot 39% against the Warriors... In the 1993 Finals, he shot 51% at the same shot volume while facing a tougher defensive environment - Lebron got single-coverage, while MJ faced incessant double-teaming.. More importantly, MJ never got strongside clearouts where all 4 help defenders are on the far weakside and therefore furthest away from helping (seen above).. That's the easiest possible setup for an offensive player and that's what Lebron enjoyed the entire Finals.

[3ball]

can't even scores 50 against shitty worriors's defence


And for all the talk of how bad Lebron's teammates were offensively in the Finals, Lebron shot worse than his teammates did - his eFG% was 43.1% compared to his team's 43.2% eFG.

So the stats prove that Lebron was just as horrible offensively, but he just shot WAAAAY more.

There's an ESPN article (http://stats.nba.com/featured/sportvu_finals_game6_2015_06_17.html?ls=iref:nba:s pecials) showing that in Game 6, Lebron shot the ball on pnr's 42% of the time, compared to 8% for Curry... This occurred because Curry passed to Draymond Green and Iggy 77% of the time either of them screened, compared to 0% for Tristan and 15% for Mosgov when they screened Lebron.. Again, Tristan and Mosgov shot FAR better than Lebron, but the pnr stats show Lebron passed up their higher efficiency to shoot himself at much lower efficiency.. :confusedshrug:

[dankok8]

You haven't answered my questions.

1) The 2015 Warriors are a dramatically better defensive team than the 1993 Suns... just by a huge margin.

Even if I give you the benefit of the doubt and I agree that Lebron faced more single coverage than Jordan (you say it like it's an indisputable fact and like it happened on every possession...), how about talking a little bit about rim protection once the defense gets beat because that's an enormous factor affecting efficiency? The 1993 Suns had Mark West, Oliver Miller, and Charles Barkley down low to contest Jordan. The 2015 Warriors had Andrew Bogut and Draymond Green. Even as a primary defender, Igoudala is better than Majerle.

2) The 1993 Suns are at best a marginally better offensive team than the 2015 Warriors... an ORtg edge of 113.3 to 111.6. And it's important to note that the Suns offense had Cedric Ceballos in the regular season whom they didn't have in the finals. Both teams had about equally devastating firepower.

The Bulls wouldn't come anywhere near 110 ppg as a team against the Warriors. Jordan's production may be much more similar to what he put up against the Knicks in the 1993 ECF.

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2015/uAh_p8.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-14-2015/KRt-Ni.gif


You haven't answered my question - who had the better defense - Warriors or Suns

... and I agree that Lebron faced more single coverage than Jordan



The Warriors were a better defensive team relative to the rest of the league, but as you said in the bolded above, the way the Warriors played Lebron made it easier for Lebron than MJ had it vs. Suns.

We already know that you can't get 30 shot attempts on all 3-and-D.. We also know that Lebron's efficiency is poor at the midrange and 1-on-1 needed to achieve that kind of volume, which means he can't shoot well at high volume.. But there's something fundamental that you're not getting - the Warriors can look at the stats just like we can and see that Lebron has poor midrange and isolation efficiency.. Naturally, they let Lebron go 1-on-1 all alone repeatedly without double-teaming, just like anyone does when they don't expect their opponent to make shots.. And their gamble was right - Lebron's eFG% in the Finals was worse than his teammates.

Otoh, no team has ever encouraged MJ to shoot - they know MJ will shoot a great percentage if he's left all alone against his man - so the Suns had a completely different mindset against MJ - they had to double-team and focus far more defensive bodies to preventing him from shooting.

As the gifs above demonstrate - when Lebron was on the strongside, help defenders were on the other side of the paint on the far weakside - therefore, they were much further away from both the paint and Lebron than MJ's help defenders.. MJ's help defenders were IN the paint already and he faced incessant double-teaming (see gif above again for obvious contrast).





how about talking a little bit about rim protection once the defense gets beat because that's an enormous factor affecting efficiency? The 1993 Suns had Mark West, Oliver Miller, and Charles Barkley down low to contest Jordan. The 2015 Warriors had Andrew Bogut and Draymond Green. Even as a primary defender, Igoudala is better than Majerle.


You're just reading off the Suns players but you have no idea who they are - Oliver Miller was a known shot-blocker - he was a better rim-protector than Green and old, past-his-prime Bogut... Also, Richard Dumas was the same kind of athlete (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EfuFU9Erl8&t=0m3s) Iggy was, yet MJ destroyed him when isolated against him (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dwcaYkGTTE&t=4m28s).. So you're forgetting guys that MJ played against, or you weren't aware of them.






2) The 1993 Suns are at best a marginally better offensive team than the 2015 Warriors... an ORtg edge of 113.3 to 111.6. And it's important to note that the Suns offense had Cedric Ceballos in the regular season whom they didn't have in the finals.



The Suns ORtg was 111.0 in playoffs compared to 108.7 for Warriors.. In the Finals, it was 113.0 against the Bulls' great defense, compared to 107 for Warriors.. So even the Bulls' all-time defense couldn't stop the Suns.

I'm not sure what you're trying to dispute here - the Suns offense was much better and they didn't even spread the floor as much as the Warriors do with 3-pointers.. The Suns just had a superior overall mix of 2-point skill and 3-point skill.

Both the Bulls and Suns had superior offenses to the Warriors that were impossible to stop.





Jordan's production may be much more similar to what he put up against the Knicks in the 1993 ECF.



Again, the Warriors played Lebron much softer and encouraged him to shoot - this is a stark contrast from how the Knicks played MJ - compare the reaction of both teams to MJ and Lebron on similar clear-out plays... The Warriors are like "let him be.. another 39% shot.. hooray"... The Knicks are like "Oh shit - MJ has it all alone.. We must double team before he makes another one":


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2015/uAh_p8.gif

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-16-2015/mg5-G2.gif


The single-coverage and secluded 1-on-1 that the Warriors allowed indicates their defensive strategy was to let Lebron get his, and stop everyone else... Otoh, the Knicks played Jordan to STOP Jordan and let the other guys beat them.

Remember, the Warriors can look at the stats just like we can - they know Lebron has poor 1-on-1 and midrange efficiency, which are the exact shots required of high volume shooting.. So it shouldn't be a surprise that the Warriors let Lebron go 1-on-1 as much as possible without double-teaming - that's what teams do when they don't expect someone to make shots.. At 39%, it benefited the Warriors every time Lebron shot.. Otoh, MJ's efficiency was elite at the additional midrange and 1-on-1 required of high volume shooting, so he required a double-team - obviously, it wouldn't behoove any team to let MJ shoot 50% at high volume.
.

[RidonKs]

if lebron james is going to elevate his game any more, he's going to have to make the same move jordan did. give up the ball handling nonsense... that's not your game anymore. jordan moved to the high post, lebron needs to move a little bit lower than that. work on that midrange game, he's still got the quickness to go around guys as well as strength to power through them.

you have kyrie irving at your point guard position... he's already one of the best ball handlers ever. lebron needs to learn to play off him and be the keystone in the offensive machine... every time anybody tries to double irving, the ball swings to james, always a huge presence in the middle of the floor. and now he can do whatever he wants.

james needs to be told that he's no longer responsible for bringing the ball up the floor. he needs to settle into a real position. this everyman sh!t worked when he was spry and malleable, he could slot in anywhere and make it work. if he wants to remain effective, he needs to choose his spots wisely, rather than trying to do everything on a team loaded with talent.




all of that said, 2015 was an easy exception with the injuries. its insulting to believe there was anything more james could have done for the cavs than exactly what he did. maybe he could have gone to florida for a week while they were playing the hawks...

[GIF REACTION]

if lebron james is going to elevate his game any more, he's going to have to make the same move jordan did. give up the ball handling nonsense... that's not your game anymore. jordan moved to the high post, lebron needs to move a little bit lower than that. work on that midrange game, he's still got the quickness to go around guys as well as strength to power through them.

you have kyrie irving at your point guard position... he's already one of the best ball handlers ever. lebron needs to learn to play off him and be the keystone in the offensive machine... every time anybody tries to double irving, the ball swings to james, always a huge presence in the middle of the floor. and now he can do whatever he wants.

james needs to be told that he's no longer responsible for bringing the ball up the floor. he needs to settle into a real position. this everyman sh!t worked when he was spry and malleable, he could slot in anywhere and make it work. if he wants to remain effective, he needs to choose his spots wisely, rather than trying to do everything on a team loaded with talent.




all of that said, 2015 was an easy exception with the injuries. its insulting to believe there was anything more james could have done for the cavs than exactly what he did. maybe he could have gone to florida for a week while they were playing the hawks...
Was going to say something but then I saw the bottom paragraph

I agree, he needs to transcend his game of predictability

We saw at the height of his NBA success, was also when the ball was in his hands the least (2012-2013, his usage rate was the lowest since his 2nd season).... Not saying that it is that simple, just that when the talent is there, he needs to work off the ball more. 2012-2013 was beautiful basketball... Lebron is capable of it again... Just has to be open to integrating Kevin Love into the frame. The potential is there for some serious post play

[Segatti]

Pure dominance :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Gileraracer]

Pure dominance :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

He dominated the games they lost :roll:

[TomCat]

Pure dominance :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

He couldn't win a game without Wade being in the building.

Talk about insecurity.

[Mr Feeny]

Pure dominance :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:I wonder if he'll repeat that crazy 37,13, 9 performance. We hasn't seen anything like that in nba history and I'm not sure if if was a one off or if the Warriors defense isn't as well geared to stop athletic wings as some other all time great teams are.

He became the first player in NBA history to lead both teams in all 5 categories iirc. I'm not saying he or anyone should be expected to repeat that but if he were to get close, it would be awesome.

[3ball]

Lebron had no chance in 2015 Finals


Lebron should've won the 2015 Finals but he let a 7 ppg role player (Iggy) be > Curry.

Obviously, if Lebron holds Iggy to 7 ppg instead of 17 ppg, AND shoots better than 39% against the Warriors' single-coverage, the Cavs win easily.

It's amazing - even WITH Lebron's defense allowing Iggy to get 17 ppg (instead of 7 ppg), and even WITH Lebron shooting an abysmal 39%, the Cavs were still competitive and won 2 games - if he holds Iggy to 7 ppg and shoots 50%, the Cavs win easily.





MJ couldn't have won in 2015 Finals with that injured Cavs team



MJ won the championship in 1998 with teammates that produced less in Finals:


Mosgov's 14/8 on 55% > Pippen's 15 ppg on 41%

JR Smith's 12 ppg on 32% < Kukoc's 15 ppg on 50%

Tristan's 10/13 > Rodman's 4/8 (Rodman was so horrible he wasn't even a starter)

Delly/Shumpert's 7-8 ppg on 27% = Kerr/Harper's 4-5 ppg on 35%


MJ won with less in 1998, so we know he would've won with Lebron's cast in 2015.

And specifically HOW/WHY would MJ win??.... Because his defense would never let a 7 ppg role player be > Karl Malone, or shoot 39% against repeated single coverage.

It's amazing - even WITH Lebron's defense allowing Iggy to get 17 ppg (instead of 7 ppg), and even WITH Lebron shooting an abysmal 39%, the Cavs were still competitive and won 2 games - if he holds Iggy to 7 ppg and shoots 50%, the Cavs win easily.





Lebron had no chance in 2014 Finals


Horseshit - Lebron's defense was very good the first 2 games against Kawhi (9 ppg on 43%), and not surprisingly, the Heat were tied 1-1... They were competitive with the Spurs, just like OKC and Dallas were, who held Kawhi to 12 ppg on 45%.

But then Lebron gave up in Game 3, because he's weak with no perseverance - Kawhi proceeded to run roughshod the last 3 games for 24 ppg on 69% - this is the biggest reason the series changed - that's a 15 point swing.

Better defense on Kawhi would've kept the games closer, and the Heat could've WON the series if Lebron coupled his better defense on Kawhi with more offensive aggression - he only averaged 17 shot attempts, which was HALF his attempts in 2015 Finals that won 2 games with a worse supporting cast (the injured Cavs) against a better team (Warriors)..

Obviously, if Lebron plays good defense on Kawhi AND doubles his shot attempts to 33 per game like the 2015 Finals, the Heat would've won.






Not much Lebron could've done in 2007 Finals



Many guys played better against the same Spurs team:


Lebron vs. Spurs in 2007 Finals: 22 ppg on 35%

Melo vs. Spurs in 2007 1st Rd: 27 ppg on 48%

Dirk vs. Spurs in 2007.. WCF: 27 ppg on 53%

Bonzi vs. Spurs in 2006 1st Rd: 23/12 on 61%

Kobe vs. Spurs in 2008.. WCF: 29 ppg on 53%



The reason for Lebron's worse efficiency was JUMPSHOOTING EFFICIENCY:


....................... midrange jumpshot FG%..... 3-point jumpshot FG%..... Jumpshot proportion of offense

Lebron 2007 Finals (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4) .............14.8........................... 20.0............................... 52.2
Bonzi 2006 1st Rd (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1719/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=1) ..............50.0........................... 62.5............................... 32.2
Dirk 2006 WCF (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1717/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3) ..................41.3........................... 50.0 .............................. 61.2
Melo 2007 1st Rd (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2546/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=1) ...............37.5........................... 50.0 .............................. 59.1
Kobe 2008 WCF (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/shooting/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3) .................50.0........................... 33.3............................... 63.3



Everyone shot well on jumpers against the Spurs, EXCEPT Lebron - the so the Spurs jumpshooting defense clearly wasn't prohibitive - Lebron just can't shoot.

Even 9 years later in 2016, his efficiency is among the worst in NBA outside the paint... Lebron simply CAN'T SHOOT.. When a player can't shoot, there are tons of guys that can play better than him.






Lebron had no chance in 2007 Finals


Not true - despite Lebron's 22 ppg on 35%, all 4 games were single-digit affairs, including 1-possession nail-biters in Games 3 and 4.. (edit: Game 1 was 11 pt game)

The Cavs had a great defense, but just needed a consistent volume scorer to win.
.

[tpols]

Many guys played better against the same Spurs team:


Lebron vs. Spurs in 2007 Finals: 22 ppg on 35%

Melo vs. Spurs in 2007 1st Rd: 27 ppg on 48%

Dirk vs. Spurs in 2007.. WCF: 27 ppg on 53%

Bonzi vs. Spurs in 2006 1st Rd: 23/12 on 61%

Kobe vs. Spurs in 2008.. WCF: 29 ppg on 53%



i always get a good laugh out of the bonzi wells reference :applause:

[3ball]

i always get a good laugh out of the bonzi wells reference :applause:



The reason Bonzi and everyone else had superior efficiency vs. the Spurs is because they shot far better on jumpshots than Lebron did:


....................... midrange jumpshot FG%..... 3-point jumpshot FG%..... Jumpshot proportion of offense

Lebron 2007 Finals (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2544/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4) .............14.8........................... 20.0............................... 52.2
Bonzi 2006 1st Rd (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1719/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=1) ..............50.0........................... 62.5............................... 32.2
Dirk 2006 WCF (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/1717/stats/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3) ..................41.3........................... 50.0 .............................. 61.2
Melo 2007 1st Rd (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/2546/stats/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=1) ...............37.5........................... 50.0 .............................. 59.1
Kobe 2008 WCF (http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/977/stats/shooting/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=3) .................50.0........................... 33.3............................... 63.3



Everyone shot well on jumpers against the Spurs, EXCEPT Lebron - the so the Spurs jumpshooting defense clearly wasn't prohibitive - Lebron just can't shoot.

Even 9 years later in 2016, his efficiency is among the worst in NBA outside the paint... Lebron simply CAN'T SHOOT.. When a player can't shoot, there are tons of guys that can play better than him.

The 2007 Finals were actually the SECOND time Lebron missed more than 80% of his jumpshots in a Finals (2015 was the other time).. That must be some kind of record.

[tpols]

bonzi wells was awesome, i wonder whatever happened to him.

[3ball]

.
Efficiency WITH Lebron James on the floor in 2015 Finals:

JR Smith
Delly
J. Jones
Shumpert

Total 56/171 (32.7%)


As you can see, those guys shot horribly WITH Lebron on the floor, which is pretty standard - it's become typical for Lebron's teammates to underperform alongside him in the Finals, for obvious reasons:

It's statistical fact (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11709473&postcount=1) that Lebron reduces his teammates' APG and increases their assisted rate, thus turning them from playmakers to play-finishers.. Not surprisingly, their simple play-finishing roles no longer find success against the best playoff teams.. :confusedshrug:

With teammates playing under capacity, the TEAM plays under capacity and eventually loses to an opponent they had the capacity to beat (i.e. losing as the favorite in 2009 ECF, 2010 ECSF, and 2011 Finals, or losing when it was 50/50 - 2014 Finals) (http://www.nj.com/knicks/index.ssf/2014/06/nba_finals_2014_experts_predict_whether_the_heat_o r_spurs_will_come_out_on_top_in_the_finals_rematch .html).

Ultimately, Lebron's reduction of teammates into play-finishers prevents the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that the Mavs, Spurs, Warriors, and 90's Bulls used (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s), where all 5 guys share the playmaking duties - since Lebron prevents the best brand of basketball, his teams are susceptible to equal or less-talented opponents pulling upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

That's the difference between 2/6 underachievement and 6/6 perfection: MJ's off-ball style got the most out of his teammates (elevates teammates), so the team plays to capacity and never loses as the favorite, while Lebron's ball-dominance turns teammates into play-finishers, leading to team underperformance and losing as the favorite.

Now the question is WHY SPECIFICALLY does Lebron turn teammates into play-finishers?.. The reason is twofold (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=12056301&postcount=60).

[riseagainst]

[QUOTE=GIF REACTION]LeBron James finished the 2015 NBA Finals with averages of 35.8 points, 13.3 rebounds, and 8.8 assists per game.

LeBron James is the first player in NBA Finals history to lead both teams in points, assists and rebounds for the entire series.

Without James on the floor, Cleveland

[aj1987]

.
Efficiency WITH Lebron James on the floor in 2015 Finals:

JR Smith
Delly
J. Jones
Shumpert

Total 56/171 (32.7%)

They shot 0% with him off the court, you massive ******.

[The Iron Fist]

They shot 0% with him off the court, you massive ******.
They lost six times with him on the court:roll:

[3ball]

.
Lebron's stats were achieved with the most ball-domination of all time:



Time of possession:

Lebron 15' Finals:.12.2 (https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) minutes (8.3 for RS leader Wall)
Harden 19' Reg Seas.:.9.3 (https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) minutes



So the Cavs' ball-movement suffered and brand of ball was outmatched:



Team Assists

Warriors. 15' Finals:. 138
Cavaliers 15' Finals:... 95





Lebron's approach of turning teammates into spot-up shooters doesn't compete well on the championship level, nor does it develop teammates/teams, and infact only wins with excess talent (2 ready-made stars) to offset the reduction in brand of ball/ball movement/team development.
.

[And1AllDay]

LBJ vs Dray, Klay, Igudola
36-13-9 on 40%

Mike vs 6'1 Payton
27-5-4 on 41%

Pick one :oldlol:

[StrongLurk]

Lebron only made the finals that year because he was in the East. He wouldn't make the finals out West with Love injured and Kyrie playing at 70% (before breaking his knee cap).

However, if Love/Kyrie were healthy then the Cavs would have won the finals that year. 2016 Warriors were better than 2015.

[StrongLurk]

.
Lebron's stats were achieved with the most ball-domination of all time:



Time of possession:

Lebron 15' Finals:.12.2 (https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) minutes (8.3 for RS leader Wall)
Harden 19' Reg Seas.:.9.3 (https://stats.nba.com/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1) minutes



So the Cavs' ball-movement suffered and brand of ball was outmatched:



Team Assists

Warriors. 15' Finals:. 138
Cavaliers 15' Finals:... 95





Lebron's approach of turning teammates into spot-up shooters doesn't compete well on the championship level, nor does it develop teammates/teams, and infact only wins with excess talent (2 ready-made stars) to offset the reduction in brand of ball/ball movement/team development.
.

Lebron did dominate the ball (way more than usual) in 2015 finals because the Cavs had no other options. Dellavadova struggled to bring the ball up and Shumpert/JR are not point guards.. They slowed the game down to try to even out he series since the Warriors were >>> with Love/Kyrie out. Lebron would have had less stats but more efficiency with Love/Kyrie playing and the Cavs would have won the chip in 2015.

The 2016 Warriors were a good bit better than 2015 so they were slight favorites over the Cavs in my opinion, but the Cavs were slightly better in 2015 than the 2015 Warriors with Love/Kyrie healthy.

[And1AllDay]

They shot 0% with him off the court, you massive ******.

https://i.postimg.cc/KYnny3n6/tenor.gif

[3ball]

Lebron did dominate the ball (way more than usual) in 2015 finals because the Cavs had no other options. Dellavadova struggled to bring the ball up and Shumpert/JR are not point guards.. They slowed the game down to try to even out he series since the Warriors were >>> with Love/Kyrie out. Lebron would have had less stats but more efficiency with Love/Kyrie playing and the Cavs would have won the chip in 2015.

The 2016 Warriors were a good bit better than 2015 so they were slight favorites over the Cavs in my opinion, but the Cavs were slightly better in 2015 than the 2015 Warriors with Love/Kyrie healthy.
Anyone can bring the ball up the court but that isn't the issue

The issue is what happens AFTER the ball is brought up

Ball movement has always gotten better looks for role players than 1 player dominating the ball in the halfcourt..

Unfortunately, Lebron-ball's low ball-movement and spot-up shooter approach didn't give teammates an opportunity to shine and predictably got out-produced.. if lebron had the skills to get the same 35 ppg without dominating the ball, then the Cavs would've had a much better team and played much better BASKETBALL (ball movement)
.

[TheCorporation]

Anyone can bring the ball up the court but that isn't the issue

The issue is what happens AFTER the ball is brought up

Ball movement has always gotten better looks for role players than 1 player dominating the ball in the halfcourt..

Unfortunately, Lebron-ball's low ball-movement and spot-up shooter approach didn't give teammates an opportunity to shine and predictably got out-produced.. if lebron had the skills to get the same 35 ppg without dominating the ball, then the Cavs would've had a much better team and played much better BASKETBALL (ball movement)
.

Why do you keep running from the thread you got crushed in?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=465435


3ball like:

https://media.giphy.com/media/l2Sqc3POpzkj5r8SQ/giphy.gif

Where ever LeBron was proven to be superior to Jordan, I waaaas runniiing (away)