Gary Payton/KJ would dominate today

[juju151111]

Even John Stockton would dominate even more. Its ridiculous how cp3 is so hyped up today when KJ was superior player. Rule changes helped cp3 and every PG running around freely with out touch

[FreezingTsmoove]

CP3 led the #1 offense in the league for 2 years, tell me hows that's overrated

[Straight_Ballin]

The fact that these pg's of today can't even average 20-10 on 50% or greater fg% like KJ is just horrible.

[Richesly]

Jeff Teague plays very similar to KJ.

[inclinerator]

cp3 is better than all of them stop trying to belittle cp3 lol

[ShawkFactory]

They dominated then too

[juju151111]

CP3 led the #1 offense in the league for 2 years, tell me hows that's overrated
He wouldn't be doing this shit in the 90s. Rule chanes in 95,2000,01,05,06 has helped PG run wild in this league. Cp3 chokes all the damn time bro

[catch24]

Gary Payton and Stockton? Cool. But now KJ is better than CP3?

Pass the kush bro

[juju151111]

cp3 is better than all of them stop trying to belittle cp3 lol
You seriously have no clue how good KJ was do you:lol

[Smoke117]

The fact that these pg's of today can't even average 20-10 on 50% or greater fg% like KJ is just horrible.

Yeah, because that has nothing to do with the fact that he averaged about half a 3pt attempt a game during his career. Chris Paul shot .485% for this season... .523% from 2pters. He shot .398% on 4.3 3pt attempts. He would EASILY be over 50% if he was averaging half a 3pter like Kevin Johnson. He has shot over 50% from his 2pt shots six times in his career. Maybe try a little context next time.
He actually did do this in 09 taking 2.3 3pters and easily would have done this in 08 if he wasn't taking 3.1. This is without the fact that technically Johnson only did it once anyway. The point is that the 3pt shot is lowering overall field goal percentages...but that doesn't mean they are less efficient.

[juju151111]

Gary Payton and Stockton? Cool. But now KJ is better than CP3?

Pass the kush bro
Kj is better and not much of a choker like Cp3 not to mention cp3 plays in a era made for smalls yet he can't replicate KJ

[catch24]

Kj is better and not much of a choker like Cp3 not to mention cp3 plays in a era made for smalls yet he can't replicate KJ

http://replygif.net/i/749.gif

[T_L_P]

Even John Stockton would dominate even more. Its ridiculous how cp3 is so hyped up today when KJ was superior player. Rule changes helped cp3 and every PG running around freely with out touch

KJ > Paul? I've heard it all now.

[Straight_Ballin]

Yeah, because that has nothing to do with the fact that he averaged about half a 3pt attempt a game during his career. Chris Paul shot .485% for this season... .523% from 2pters. He shot .398% on 4.3 3pt attempts. He would EASILY be over 50% if he was averaging half a 3pter like Kevin Johnson. He has shot over 50% from his 2pt shots six times in his career. Maybe try a little context next time.
He actually did do this in 09 taking 2.3 3pters and easily would have done this in 08 if he wasn't taking 3.1. This is without the fact that technically Johnson only did it once anyway. The point is that the 3pt shot is lowering overall field goal percentages...but that doesn't mean they are less efficient.

All I took away from this is that if KJ played today with no hand checking where more 3's per game are taken, he'd still pull off a 50% fg 20-10 season.

[qrich]

CP3 led the #1 offense in the league for 2 years, tell me hows that's overrated

While playing great to elite D.

[juju151111]

http://replygif.net/i/749.gif
Ok get wrecked
Gary Payton
6th season - 19.3 ppg + 7.5 apg (Age 27) - 95-96 season
7th season - 21.8 ppg + 7.1 apg (Age 28)
8th season - 19.2 ppg + 8.3 apg (Age 29)
9th season - 21.7 ppg + 8.7 apg (Age 30)

a past prime Payton for 4 years post 98-99 rule changes had
10th season - 24.2 ppg + 8.9 apg (age 31) - 99-00 season
11th season - 23.1 ppg + 8.1 apg (Age 32)
12th season - 22.1 ppg + 9.0 apg (Age 33)
13th season - 20.4 ppg + 8.3 apg (Age 34)

Payton's FG% increased every year from his 9th season to his 12th season, with only a 1.3% decrease in his 13th season.

John Stockton
15th season - 11.1 ppg + 7.5 apg (Age 36 - 98-99 season)

then rule changes were introduced
16th season - 12.1 ppg + 8.6 apg (Age 37)
17th season - 11.5 ppg + 8.7 apg (Age 38)
18th season - 13.4 ppg + 8.2 apg (Age 39)
19th season - 10.8 ppg + 7.7 apg (Age 40)

Stockton's FG% increased every season from his 15th season to his 18th season. Chris Paul has the rule changes in his favor and still can't touch KJ.

Kevin Johnson's accomplishments

only player with Isiah and Magic to
- average 20+ ppg 12+ apg in a season

only player with Magic Johnson to
- average 20+ ppg 12+ apg on 50% in a season
- average 20+ ppg 10+ apg on 50% in 2 seasons

KJ almost had a record 3rd season of 20-10 on 50% but shot 49.9% in 1989/90

In his 9 years as a starter (1988/89 to 1996/97)
- KJ averaged 19.8 ppg 10.0 apg on 49.7%
- just short of 20 ppg 10 apg on 50% for his career as a starter

for his entire 9 years as a starter, KJ nearly averaged what only he and Magic have done in multiple seasons - 20 ppg 10 apg on 50%

only player with Oscar and Isiah to
- average 20+ ppg 10+ apg for 3 straight years
-- Magic also did this in 3 different years, but not consecutive
-- KJ almost tied Oscar and Isiah for a record 4th straight year of 20-10, but averaged 19.7 ppg in 1991/92

only player with Oscar and Isiah to
- average 23+ ppg 11+ apg in multiple playoffs
-- Oscar did it in 1962, 1965, and 1967, but lost in the first round all 3 times
-- Isiah did it in 1985 and 1986, but lost in the 1986 first round

that makes KJ the only player to average 23-11 in multiple playoffs past the first round (1989 WCF and 1992 WCSF)

3rd all-time in seasons averaging at least 18 points and 9 assists with seven
- behind only Oscar (nine) and Magic (eight)
Chris Paul has done this 6 times in 10 seasons as a starter
- but one of those seasons was less than 50 games, CP3 only played 45 games in 2009/10
- all of KJ's 18 ppg 9 apg seasons were at least 55 games

KJ did it 7 times in 9 seasons as a starter, and he was playing with an undiagnosed sports hernia from 1993 to 1996, he also had a second undiagnosed hernia somewhere in that timespan. KJ was playing injured for 3-4 years of his prime and still putting up those numbers

he also outplayed prime Barkley in the 1994 WCSF and 1995 WCSF against Hakeem's Rockets both times.

In Game 7 of the 1995 WCSF, KJ dropped 46 pts and 10 assists on 12/26 FG and 21/22 FT. That's the 2nd highest points scored in a Game 7 and the only 40 points 10 assist performance in a Game 7. Chris Paul can only dream of stepping up like that on the big stage

Kevin Johnson also took the Suns to back to back WCF in 1989 and 1990, and this was before Barkley was on the team. His best teammates were
- Tom Chambers - shot 36% and 42% when KJ carried him in the 1990 1st Rd and WCSF
- Eddie Johnson - 8.6 ppg on 39% when KJ carried him in the 1990 WCSF
- Jeff Hornacek, Dan Majerle, Mark West

Chris Paul has been playing on one of the most stacked teams in the league for the last couple years
- Doc Rivers future HoF coach
- Blake Griffin top 3 PF
- Deandre Jordan 2x rebounding champ
- Jamal Crawford 6th man of the year
- and good role players like Barnes and Reddick

but he still choked away the key games in the 2014 WCSF and 2015 WCSF and can't lead that stacked team past the 2nd round. his defense is also unimpressive in the playoffs. he was totally dominated by Chauncey Billups in the 2009 Playoffs (and that was after CP3's best statistical year)

and was outplayed by Westbrook in the 2014 WCSF. Curry also had basically his same averages in the 2014 Playoffs that he did in the season. and I've noticed that CP3 completely avoids guarding the other team's best PG for long stretches in the playoffs like Billups in 2009 and Curry in 2014.

the only notable player I can think of that he locked down was Tony Parker, but CP3 played garbage in the 2012 WCSF anyway. and Parker averaged almost his same exact same regular season numbers against Paul in 2008 WCSF.

Chris Paul's playoff stats are enormously inflated and overrated because 7 out of his career 11 playoff series (64% of them) are in the first round, where he's bound to get good stats because
1. CP3 didn't get his team a good enough record to get past the first round in the first place
2. opposing teams are willing to let him get big numbers and hold everyone else in check because of that

so his playoff stats are very misleading. It's a given that he's going to get good stats because other teams know that he's not going to beat them, and are OK with letting him put up big numbers.

People always talk about how Chris Paul "carried" the Hornets. How exactly did he carry them? he won a grand total of ONE playoff series with the Hornets (2008). and he didn't have a bad team in 2008 either. He had Tyson Chandler, David West, and one of the best shooters of all-time in Peja Stojakovic. By no means has CP3 ever "carried" a team in his life. When he actually had mediocre teams he couldnt lead them out the first round.

In all of his 2nd round exits, Chris Paul has cost his team in the crucial moments/games

2008 WCSF, Game 7
- in the last 6:50, Chris Paul had 0 points on 0/2 FG with 1 TO
- Tony Parker outscored him 4-0 in that stretch

2012 WCSF
- CP3 had a garbage 13-4-9 on 37%

2014 WCSF, Game 5 - chance to go up 3-2 with the next game in LA
- Westbrook outplayed him over the series
- LAC was up 2 with 18 seconds left
- then Paul turned it over and fouled Westbrook on the 4
- then he turned it over again on the last possession to cost them the game and eventually the series

2015 WCSF, Game 6 - up 3-2 and a chance to go to the WCF
- Clippers were up 13 entering the 4th quarter
- CP3 had 1-6 FG, 1 reb, 0 ast, 0 stl, 0 blk in the 4th quarter before a garbage time 3 at the end of the game to pad his stats
- and he choked away a 3-1 lead and eventually the series because he disappeared in the 4th quarter

every time his team makes it to the 2nd round, he's directly responsible for costing them the series

can you see CP3 taking Tom Chambers and Jeff Hornacek past MVP Magic Johnson's league best record 63-19 Lakers with Cooper, Worthy, and coach Pat Riley like KJ did in the 1990 WCSF? Or dropping 46-10 in a game 7 like KJ against Hakeem's 1995 champ Rockets? Not at all.

if you give KJ that stacked Clippers team and he didnt run into someone like Hakeem's Rockets, they'd have no problem making it to multiple NBA Finals. you put CP3 on the Suns with no Barkley and he wont pass the 2nd round. Hell, he won't get them past the 2nd round even with Barkley. He has a top 3 PF today and a 2x rebound champ and still can't get it done today.

[!@#$%Vectors!@#]

Chris Paul is a choker. You clipper stans know it and everyone on ish knows it. He is better than KJ but his choking takes away any thing he does right.

[catch24]

All that copy and paste bullshit, yet nobody sane would draft KJ over CP, or claim that KJ was "better" than him.

Keep smoking that good shit

[GIF REACTION]

Didn't you guys know? Every 80's and 90's player are significantly better than todays players.

[juju151111]

1989/90
Suns = 51-23 (0.689 win%) with KJ and Conference Finals (beat MVP Magic)
Suns = 3-5 (0.375 win%) without KJ

1990/91
Suns = 53-24 (0.688 win%) with KJ
Suns = 2-3 (0.400 win%) without KJ

The only years that KJ did not have as big impact are when Barkley was on the team, but even with Barkley on the team the Suns still sometimes did much worse without KJ

1992/93
Suns = 37-12 (0.755 win%) with KJ
Suns = 25-8 (0.758 win%) without KJ (with MVP Barkley)

Suns were 0-1 against the 8-seed Lakers in the playoffs without KJ, but they were 3-1 when KJ came back. Proof that the Suns were only good without KJ in the regular season, not the playoffs

1993/94
Suns = 49-18 (0.731 win%) with KJ
Suns = 7-8 (0.467 win%) without KJ (with Barkley)

1994/95
Suns = 32-15 (0.681 win%) with KJ
Suns = 27-8 (0.771 win%) without KJ (with Barkley)

but then KJ outplayed Barkley in the 1995 WCSF especially Game 7

1995/96
Suns = 30-26 (0.536 win%) with KJ
Suns = 11-15 (0.423 win%) without KJ (with Barkley)

And the most impressive

1996/97
Suns = 39-31 (0.557 win%) with KJ
Suns = 1-11 (0.083 win%) without KJ (no Barkley)

The 1997 Suns were easily the worst team in the league without KJ and would be lucky to crack 15 wins. When he played, they had a very respectable 0.557 win% which is a 45 or 46 win pace

The only reason Kevin Johnson isn't a top 5 PG of all-time is because of injuries that cut his career short. KJ is one of the top 2 or 3 PGs of all-time for prime or peak value behind Magic and maybe Oscar.

KJ is already the only player to average at least 23 ppg 11 apg in 2 playoff runs that went past the first round

He would have done it in the 1990 Playoffs when they made a 2nd straight WCF, but KJ only averaged 21.3 ppg and 10.6 apg in that run. The problem is that KJ had two games in those 1990 Playoffs where he played limited minutes due to injury

Game 1 vs 1990 Jazz (First round)
K.J. had the flu, but started and tried to play. He only played 9 minutes, posting 0 points and 5 assists, before head coach Cotton Fitzsimmons sent him back to the hotel.

Game 6 vs 1990 Blazers (WCF)
Then in what turned out to be Phoenix's final playoff game, K.J. posted 16 points and 6 assists in 14 minutes of action. His final field goal, however, came late in the second quarter while KJ slid backwards off Kevin Duckworth's torso, causing K.J.'s left leg to snap up into the air. The result was a pulled hamstring that forced K.J. to leave the game a couple of possessions later, unable to return.

excluding those 2 games with limited minutes, KJ averaged 23.1 ppg and 11.4 apg on 48% in that 1990 playoff run, which would have been a 3rd time that he averaged at least 23 ppg 11 apg past the first round, something no one else has done twice.

Tom Chambers shot 5/16 (31%) in both of those games that KJ was injured against the Jazz and Blazers, and had 4 and 5 turnovers in those games. proof that Tom Chambers was useless on the Suns unless he was playing alongside KJ

Eddie Johnson only had 5 points on 1/4 (25%) FG in the Jazz game that KJ was injured and 11 points on 3/11 (27%) FG in the Blazers game that KJ was injury, more proof that KJ's teammates were only putting up good numbers on the Suns if they were playing next to KJ

so if anyone brings up Chambers and Johnson's season averages, all you have to do is bring up the 2 games that KJ was injured in the 1990 Playoffs to prove that those guys only had good numbers on the Suns because they were playing next to KJ. when KJ was out, those guys played like crap and lost

the 1990 Suns lost both of those playoff games that KJ left due to injury/illness. They were 0-2 without KJ in the 1990 Playoffs when he left due to injury and 9-5 when he was healthy. Add in Game 1 of the 1993 1st round when the Suns lost to the 8 seed Lakers when KJ did not play, and KJ's Suns were 0-3 in the playoffs when KJ played less than 15 minutes due to injury or did not play at all during his time as a starter

more proof that KJ is MUCH better than CP3 at making the guys around him better

[juju151111]

Didn't you guys know? Every 80's and 90's player are significantly better than todays players.
BS I think LJ is the best SF ever and Duncan the best PF. Freaking Fact the rule changes of00,01,05,(and emphasis on touch fouls in 06) gave perimeter players more room to operate. Don't foul yourself into thinking the Knicks of the 90s with 90s rules wouldn't shut their shit the **** down.

[juju151111]

All that copy and paste bullshit, yet nobody sane would draft KJ over CP, or claim that KJ was "better" than him.

Keep smoking that good shit
You pick Cp3 because your listening to the media. Refute my points or GTFO Cp3 is choking in a era tailor made for him to succeed.

[IllegalD]

KJ the pedophile?

[juju151111]

KJ the pedophile?
So is Karl Malone doesn't stop him from being one of the best.

[Straight_Ballin]

OP toe taggin everyone in this thread.

[juju151111]

All that copy and paste bullshit, yet nobody sane would draft KJ over CP, or claim that KJ was "better" than him.

Keep smoking that good shit
How about You list cp3 accomplishments. Hpow about the time he gt his shit pushed in byu Billups in 09. or the time westbrook pushed his shit in or the time Curry did, or the time he lost by 30+ in the playoffs or the time he lost 3-1 lead with a stack team. Tell that idiot to get out of the 2nd round wiuth hs stack ass team.

[Young X]

How about You list cp3 accomplishments. Hpow about the time he gt his shit pushed in byu Billups in 09. or the time westbrook pushed his shit in or the time Curry did, or the time he lost by 30+ in the playoffs or the time he lost 3-1 lead with a stack team. Tell that idiot to get out of the 2nd round wiuth hs stack ass team.How about when he...

had 35/10 in his first ever playoff game?

dropped 34/14/7 on the Lakers?

dropped 27/15/13 on the Lakers?

dropped 22/14/4 against the Warriors in a game 7?

hit a series winning shot on one leg against the defending champs in a game 7?

hit a GW against Memphis with Tony Allen all over him?

dropped 8 threes and 32/10 in 3 quarters against OKC?

led a 22 pt comeback against OKC by defending KD and dropping 23/10 on the other end?

defended Curry, Westbrook and Durant in the same playoff run?

led the biggest 4th quarter comeback in playoff history against Memphis in 2012?

[juju151111]

How about when he...

had 35/10 in his first ever playoff game?

dropped 34/14/7 on the Lakers?

dropped 27/15/13 on the Lakers?

dropped 22/14/4 against the Warriors in a game 7?

hit a series winning shot on one leg against the defending champs in a game 7?

hit a GW against Memphis with Tony Allen all over him?

dropped 8 threes and 32/10 in 3 quarters against OKC?

led a 22 pt comeback against OKC by defending KD and dropping 23/10 on the other end?

defended Curry, Westbrook and Durant in the same playoff run?

led the biggest 4th quarter comeback in playoff history against Memphis in 2012?
He probably choked right after every one of those games. I never said he was horrible. I said Kj was better. Cp3 is a choke artist bro.

[Young X]

He probably choked right after every one of those games. I never said he was horrible. I said Kj was better. Cp3 is a choke artist bro.Choke artists don't do what he did against the Spurs.

[Smoke117]

The opinion of CP3 separates who knows what they are talking about...and who doesn't.

[juju151111]

Choke artists don't do what he did against the Spurs.
Yes they do. He still a good player but he chokes all a lot. Lets see the choke artist step up in the 2nd round and actually lead his stack ass team pass it this year .

[Young X]

Yes they do. He still a good player but he chokes all a lot. Lets see the choke artist step up in the 2nd round and actually lead his stack ass team pass it this year .No they don't.

The Clippers went down 2-1 after the first 3 games to the Spurs.

CP3 bounced back with 34/7 in game 4 to tie it up.

Then they went down 3-2.

CP3 bounced back with 19/15/4 in game 6 (elimination game)

and 27/6 on 92 TS% + series winning shot on one leg to eliminate the defending champs.

A choke artist would never have responded the way he did against that caliber of a team.

[aj1987]

The fact that these pg's of today can't even average 20-10 on 50% or greater fg% like KJ is just horrible.
Stockton and Isiah never did this must be a terrible PG's, right? Oscar did it only once so KJ > Oscar. Magic and KJ did it twice, so Magic = KJ. :rolleyes: