Obama again delays Afghanistan troop drawdown

[UK2K]

One of the few things Obama and myself agree on, which is, to pull out of Afghanistan now would be a disaster.

However...


Obama campaigned as the president who would end two wars, and Thursday's decision was a major political reversal that jeopardizes a cornerstone of his legacy.

He lied, again.

I promise, if you take volunteer applications for deployments to Afghanistan, there will be no shortage of hands going up. I want to reiterate the fact that the military, and for that matter, the soliders/sailors/airmen/and Marines themselves, WANT to deploy. That's what we do. Its the soft American public that wants to leave. Hell, I'd strap up and go back again. I wanted to, they told me not for another three years, so I got out. Imagine, people wanting to go, but policy says no. Of course, we are losing the war now, go figure.

If Obama was smart, he would ask his COS 'what do you need to get the job done?' Stop with the political bullshit. Step out of the ****ing way, and let the generals make decisions. That's what they're there for. They know what they're doing. You do not.

[GIF REACTION]

Jimmy, tell us what it is like to be in a war zone, to be at the threat of death at any moment! Tell us JD, what does it feel like to be at no regard for human life? When the shields are down and anything could happen?

[Nick Young]

Liebama gonna Lie. What's new? George W. Bush 2.0

[Akrazotile]

One of the few things Obama and myself agree on, which is, to pull out of Afghanistan now would be a disaster.

However...



He lied, again.

I promise, if you take volunteer applications for deployments to Afghanistan, there will be no shortage of hands going up. I want to reiterate the fact that the military, and for that matter, the soliders/sailors/airmen/and Marines themselves, WANT to deploy. That's what we do. Its the soft American public that wants to leave. Hell, I'd strap up and go back again. I wanted to, they told me not for another three years, so I got out. Imagine, people wanting to go, but policy says no. Of course, we are losing the war now, go figure.

If Obama was smart, he would ask his COS 'what do you need to get the job done?' Stop with the political bullshit. Step out of the ****ing way, and let the generals make decisions. That's what they're there for. They know what they're doing. You do not.


What exactly is the job, anyway?

[Nick Young]

The job is get the phuck out of Afghanistan. That "country", and you can hardly call it that as there is very little national unity, has been a quagmire throughout history and it's no different now. Leave them to their tribal infighting and poppy fields. GTFO! Let them be! If they want fundamentalist Islamic governments, it is their prerogative.

[Derka]

The real mission is in Pakistan. Without Pakistani (and ahem, Saudi) support, the terror groups we went in there to root out have no real other haven. Until you clean out Pakistan (sadly, unlikely to happen), groups like the Taliban will always have a place to hide, regroup, acquire financial means to carry on and then just wait for the right time to strike.

[falc39]

One of the few things Obama and myself agree on, which is, to pull out of Afghanistan now would be a disaster.

However...



He lied, again.

I promise, if you take volunteer applications for deployments to Afghanistan, there will be no shortage of hands going up. I want to reiterate the fact that the military, and for that matter, the soliders/sailors/airmen/and Marines themselves, WANT to deploy. That's what we do. Its the soft American public that wants to leave. Hell, I'd strap up and go back again. I wanted to, they told me not for another three years, so I got out. Imagine, people wanting to go, but policy says no. Of course, we are losing the war now, go figure.

If Obama was smart, he would ask his COS 'what do you need to get the job done?' Stop with the political bullshit. Step out of the ****ing way, and let the generals make decisions. That's what they're there for. They know what they're doing. You do not.

Just because you want to deploy does not make it a smart or wise decision. US foreign policy has been a disaster on all fronts for decades and it doesn't matter which party is in office.

[Akrazotile]

The real mission is in Pakistan. Without Pakistani (and ahem, Saudi) support, the terror groups we went in there to root out have no real other haven. Until you clean out Pakistan (sadly, unlikely to happen), groups like the Taliban will always have a place to hide, regroup, acquire financial means to carry on and then just wait for the right time to strike.


You mean the terror groups we "went in there to root out" *WINK*

The quotation marks and wink are critical.

[UK2K]

Just because you want to deploy does not make it a smart or wise decision. US foreign policy has been a disaster on all fronts for decades and it doesn't matter which party is in office.
Point being, the American public wants us out, while the military in general wants to get the job done.

The country was fairly stable just a few years ago, when we were heavily involved, but the 'bring the troops home' cry became so loud that we prematurely pulled out (that's what she said) when we should have stayed long enough for the Afghan military and police forces to be able to stand on their own.

[Nick Young]

Point being, the American public wants us out, while the military in general wants to get the job done.

The country was fairly stable just a few years ago, when we were heavily involved, but the 'bring the troops home' cry became so loud that we prematurely pulled out (that's what she said) when we should have stayed long enough for the Afghan military and police forces to be able to stand on their own.
Not being facetious here, but what is "the job" in the military leadership's mind?

[UK2K]

Jimmy, tell us what it is like to be in a war zone, to be at the threat of death at any moment! Tell us JD, what does it feel like to be at no regard for human life? When the shields are down and anything could happen?
A lot more exciting than beingn garrison.

Think of it this way... Keep a football team motivated for game day, but never play a game. Just practice over and over and over. Eventually, the team won't want to play anymore knowing they're training for nothing.

I trained for years to be a security detail. That's what I wanted to do, my job. So when they told me I wouldn't be able to 'play another game' for three years, I got out.

[UK2K]

Not being facetious here, but what is "the job" in the military leadership's mind?
Establish a government, which we did.

The job would have been finished once the ANA and ANP could stand on their own two feet without our help. They were almost there, until we left.

We literally chased the Taliban out of Afghanistan. We leave, they came right back, because the ANA and ANP are piles of garbage. Had we kept up our numbers, we wouldn't be reading articles about how the Taliban have taken back huge parts of the country. Now, all of that was for nothing.

[DonDadda59]

The real mission is in Pakistan. Without Pakistani (and ahem, Saudi) support, the terror groups we went in there to root out have no real other haven. Until you clean out Pakistan (sadly, unlikely to happen), groups like the Taliban will always have a place to hide, regroup, acquire financial means to carry on and then just wait for the right time to strike.

This. :applause:

Pakistan has been harboring, training, supporting extremist groups for decades. The Taliban were schooled in Pakistan going back to the Afghan-Soviet war. As long as nothing is done about the troublesome border and the Pakistani support, that pointless war would go on indefinitely.


Point being, the American public wants us out, while the military in general wants to get the job done.

The country was fairly stable just a few years ago, when we were heavily involved, but the 'bring the troops home' cry became so loud that we prematurely pulled out (that's what she said) when we should have stayed long enough for the Afghan military and police forces to be able to stand on their own.

We tried that with Iraq. We trained and equipped a new military and police force. The minute ISIS stepped in, those dudes stripped naked (literally) and ran the f*ck away allowing the U.S. provided equipment/vehicles to fall into ISIS' hands.

[Nick Young]

Establish a government, which we did.

The job would have been finished once the ANA and ANP could stand on their own two feet without our help. They were almost there, until we left.

We literally chased the Taliban out of Afghanistan. We leave, they came right back, because the ANA and ANP are piles of garbage. Had we kept up our numbers, we wouldn't be reading articles about how the Taliban have taken back huge parts of the country. Now, all of that was for nothing.
Afghanistan has no sense of national unity. I read so many first person accounts from US soldiers about how many villages in Afghanistan don't even know about big cities that are 20-30 miles away, and they heard nothing about America invading Afghanistan, and even thought the US soldiers were Russian soldiers returned. I read another story where people in Afghani villages genuinely thought that the US soldiers were Terminators, just like from the movie.

And half the population seems to be high on opium all the time. Can't blame them, I'd want to be high all the time if I lived in Afghanistan.


How can there be a central government when there are all of these villages and societies completely cut off from everything and the people have zero sense of national unity and pride?

All of the groups seem in it for themselves, and knowing a bit about ancient Afghani history, this is how it was even 1,500 years ago. How the hell are we going to change 1,500+ years of culture?


Don't you think that the Taliban or some other group will be happy to just wait things out until USA fully withdraws, and then they'll go to usurp whatever government the US installs, just like what always happens in Afghanistan when a foreign power tries to install a new government there?


I say we have to cut our losses and get the phuck out. If they want to destroy themselves, they have the right.

[DonDadda59]

Afghanistan has no sense of national unity. I so many first person accounts from US soldiers about how many villages in Afghanistan don't even know about big cities that are 20-30 miles away, and they heard nothing about America invading Afghanistan, and even thought the US soldiers were Russian soldiers returned. I read another story where people in Afghani villages genuinely thought that the US soldiers were Terminators, just like from the movie.

And half the population seems to be high on opium all the time. Can't blame them, I'd want to be high all the time if I lived in Afghanistan.


How can there be a central government when there are all of these villages and societies completely cut off from everything and the people have zero sense of national unity and pride?

All of the groups seem in it for themselves, and knowing a bit about ancient Afghani history, this is how it was even 1,500 years ago. How the hell are we going to change 1,500+ years of culture?


Don't you think that the Taliban or some other group will be happy to just wait things out until USA fully withdraws, and then they'll go to usurp whatever government the US installs, just like what always happens in Afghanistan when a foreign power tries to install a new government there?


I say we have to cut our losses and get the phuck out. If they want to destroy themselves, they have the right.

Another good point. Afghanistan is made up of tribes led by different warlords. So the U.S. having the mentality of capturing cities ala traditional warfare means nothing to the locals. Any military conflict you start with Afghanistan will go on forever.

We got Bin Laden. Let's move on.

[BlakFrankWhite]

Honestly,how pathetic are our establisment and how blind our the dumbass people.

We spent billions and billions in Vietnam...install a puppet regime..which falls soon after we leave.

We spent billion, no wait TRILLIONS in Afghanistan...install a puppet regime...which WILL fall soon if we leave.


We are the worst superpower off all time :facepalm, But hey...weapons contractors made big bucks and don't give a rats a** what happens next.Big businesses win...America and the people who have to deal with this back breaking debt lose :applause:

[Dbrog]

Point being, the American public wants us out, while the military in general wants to get the job done.

The country was fairly stable just a few years ago, when we were heavily involved, but the 'bring the troops home' cry became so loud that we prematurely pulled out (that's what she said) when we should have stayed long enough for the Afghan military and police forces to be able to stand on their own.

TBH I'm not convinced this day would ever have come. We see it everywhere that we destabilize. The citizens of those countries entire lives have been shaped by the culture they grew up in and therefor revert to similar governmental entities. The day that you are speaking of MAY have happened if we occupied them for an entire generation so the new ones would grow up in a different way. That's really the only hope I see there and honestly, we were wasting our time going there in the first place.

[RidonKs]

saudi arabia and pakistan... pretty much

in foreign policy, strategy always wins over principle... until enough people outside the incentives raise a stink

[Nick Young]

Honestly,how pathetic are our establisment and how blind our the dumbass people.

We spent billions and billions in Vietnam...install a puppet regime..which falls soon after we leave.

We spent billion, no wait TRILLIONS in Afghanistan...install a puppet regime...which WILL fall soon if we leave.


We are the worst superpower off all time :facepalm, But hey...weapons contractors made big bucks and don't give a rats a** what happens next.Big businesses win...America and the people who have to deal with this back breaking debt lose :applause:
We're actually the most benevolent super power in history. What other super power gives billions in aid every time a natural disaster hits other countries? What other super power had citizens with such a high standard of living and so much freedom?

Yes, we do a lot of f*cked up stuff like invade countries and install puppet regimes, but guess what, the British Empire, the Ottomans, the Mongols and the Ancient Romans were not peaches and cream themselves.

TL;DR: In comparison to past super powers, USA is EASILY the most benevolent.

[UK2K]

Afghanistan has no sense of national unity. I read so many first person accounts from US soldiers about how many villages in Afghanistan don't even know about big cities that are 20-30 miles away, and they heard nothing about America invading Afghanistan, and even thought the US soldiers were Russian soldiers returned. I read another story where people in Afghani villages genuinely thought that the US soldiers were Terminators, just like from the movie.

And half the population seems to be high on opium all the time. Can't blame them, I'd want to be high all the time if I lived in Afghanistan.


How can there be a central government when there are all of these villages and societies completely cut off from everything and the people have zero sense of national unity and pride?

All of the groups seem in it for themselves, and knowing a bit about ancient Afghani history, this is how it was even 1,500 years ago. How the hell are we going to change 1,500+ years of culture?


Don't you think that the Taliban or some other group will be happy to just wait things out until USA fully withdraws, and then they'll go to usurp whatever government the US installs, just like what always happens in Afghanistan when a foreign power tries to install a new government there?


I say we have to cut our losses and get the phuck out. If they want to destroy themselves, they have the right.

I would respond to the whole thing, but I felt this was important to point out first...

High. All. The. ****ing. Time.

We used to escort Afghan fuel truck drives, and those dudes were high as **** non stop. They never listened to anything we said, and would go off on their own all the time. Like clockwork, they would run over an IED's every time.

They never died though. I saw this truck (that went off the path) hit an IED, go up in the air, do a 180, and then land upside down. Shit was blown to pieces. Thought for sure this dude was dead. What's he do? Crawls out from his cab, goes back in once he dusts himself off, pulls out his tool bag, and starts pulling everything off the truck worth anything. Tires, seats, the ladder on the back, parts that weren't blown to pieces. It was crazy to see. Then the rest of the truck drivers (knowing a bomb just went off) jumped out of their trucks, ran over with their tool bags, and started pulling shit off. They siphoned what fuel there was left (I usually let them keep 200 gallons or so when I was supposed to watch them empty it). Craziness.

[ISHGoat]

Historians pretty much agree that the world under American rule has been the most peaceful and prosperous throughout human history.

[UK2K]

TBH I'm not convinced this day would ever have come. We see it everywhere that we destabilize. The citizens of those countries entire lives have been shaped by the culture they grew up in and therefor revert to similar governmental entities. The day that you are speaking of MAY have happened if we occupied them for an entire generation so the new ones would grow up in a different way. That's really the only hope I see there and honestly, we were wasting our time going there in the first place.

That's the key. Not that we should have stayed there for a generation, but instead of halfassing the conflict for 14 years, we should have gone all in for 8. The war was practically over in the first few years (we averaged 60 losses the first 6 years of the war). Then was the time we needed to start educating people.

There was a program that took Afghan children, flew them to the US (or in some cases, London and other European cities), educated them and showed them how awesome life was in the Western world, and then sent them back to spread the message.

But you're right, they are backwards cave people, and probably always will be. It tears me up to see places I once walked around now in Taliban territory because the ANA or ANP in the area is too chickenshit to engage the enemy. Maybe that's how it will always be? I have to believe people can change for the better, but we aren't doing them any favors either.

[Nick Young]

That's the key. Not that we should have stayed there for a generation, but instead of halfassing the conflict for 14 years, we should have gone all in for 8. The war was practically over in the first few years (we averaged 60 losses the first 6 years of the war). Then was the time we needed to start educating people.

There was a program that took Afghan children, flew them to the US (or in some cases, London and other European cities), educated them and showed them how awesome life was in the Western world, and then sent them back to spread the message.

But you're right, they are backwards cave people, and probably always will be. It tears me up to see places I once walked around now in Taliban territory because the ANA or ANP in the area is too chickenshit to engage the enemy. Maybe that's how it will always be? I have to believe people can change for the better, but we aren't doing them any favors either.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/b1/39/e5/b139e5aa63622108008653efc4b3f0c4.jpg

[NumberSix]

Why would Obama leave Afghanistan? The Taliban is taking over. Things are going exactly the way he wants them to. He's not gonna risk Russia coming in and fcuking that up.

[KevinNYC]

He lied, again.

Is this a lie or a failure?

[bladefd]

Hmm, I think it is time to pull ground troops out of Afghanistan. It's a mistake pushing drawdown back.

Continue to provide some air support and keep a thousand or so military trainers/advisers in there. Minimal support is perfectly fine but not beyond that.. War in Afghanistan is over.

[imdaman99]

The real mission is in Pakistan. Without Pakistani (and ahem, Saudi) support, the terror groups we went in there to root out have no real other haven. Until you clean out Pakistan (sadly, unlikely to happen), groups like the Taliban will always have a place to hide, regroup, acquire financial means to carry on and then just wait for the right time to strike.
This. I have family in Pakistan and they are all trying to get the hell out of there because it's nowhere to raise a child. It just isn't safe.

[NumberSix]

This. I have family in Pakistan and they are all trying to get the hell out of there because it's nowhere to raise a child. It just isn't safe.
Why is that?

[BlakFrankWhite]

This. I have family in Pakistan and they are all trying to get the hell out of there because it's nowhere to raise a child. It just isn't safe.

I visited Pakistan last winter with a college friend of mine, whose family are big industrialists there.

Islamabad was beautiful...really gave the look of a modern day capital...

Karachi and Lahre were shitholes, although once we were partying at a club 'til 3 am...(The weed is cheap as sht!) when we're headin home..the streets were filled with people!

[Nick Young]

Is this a lie or a failure?
Quite clearly it is both.

[nightprowler10]

Isn't the Pakistani military killing terrorists left and right? Step in the right direction.

Islamabad is nice but boring as ****. Lahore is the shit.

[KevinNYC]

Is this a lie or a failure?

just saw some quotes from Biden in 2012, i think from the debates.

he said we are out in 2014. Period.

So it's a lie.

[JerrySeinfeld]

We're actually the most benevolent super power in history. What other super power gives billions in aid every time a natural disaster hits other countries? What other super power had citizens with such a high standard of living and so much freedom?

Yes, we do a lot of f*cked up stuff like invade countries and install puppet regimes, but guess what, the British Empire, the Ottomans, the Mongols and the Ancient Romans were not peaches and cream themselves.

TL;DR: In comparison to past super powers, USA is EASILY the most benevolent.

yet we still manage to put the biggest target on our back by policing the world.... it's a lose/lose situation considering how much funds we are spending to help countries every time they have a problem + the funds we spend on our military, especially when you put it in perspective with the rest of the world.... I'm pretty sure that we spend more on our military than the next 10 highest spending countries combined.... that's ****ing absurd and the more we spend the bigger the target on America becomes so the more we have to spend to defend ourselves... so they say. To me it seems so obvious that we'd be better off pulling out and focusing our military efforts on self defense rather than losing American lives trying to stabilize parts of the world that have been unstable for centuries.

As others have alluded to though... business interests won't allow the obvious solution to happen. Obama in this light is a fraud and deserves severe backlash for this.

[imdaman99]

Why is that?
Well, I have a distant cousin who was killed at gunpoint because of his religious sect. Also, a 3rd world country is no place for a child. A child should grow up in as safe an environment as possible. My cousin told me he was molested there as a toddler, by 'an uncle' :facepalm They are pretty much all trying to relocate to Dubai :lol

I visited Pakistan last winter with a college friend of mine, whose family are big industrialists there.

Islamabad was beautiful...really gave the look of a modern day capital...

Karachi and Lahre were shitholes, although once we were partying at a club 'til 3 am...(The weed is cheap as sht!) when we're headin home..the streets were filled with people!
Yah they do have good weed from what I've heard :oldlol: and they grew up in Karachi and I agree, it's a major shithole. I wonder what the literacy rate over there is... I wonder if it's even 50%

[Patrick Chewing]

If I was Obama, this is what I would say, word for word:

(and you have to imagine this in his voice too)

"Listen here, people. I, Barack Hussein Obama, President of the greatest and most powerful nation on Earth, am going to order that the troops in Afghanistan continue their tour there till after 2016.

On top of that, and with careful consideration, I am also sending an additional 100,000 troops to the Middle East to once and for all, defeat these ISIS sons of bitches. Thank you, America."


But this n*gga ain't got these kinda balls.

[UK2K]

If I was Obama, this is what I would say, word for word:

(and you have to imagine this in his voice too)

"Listen here, people. I, Barack Hussein Obama, President of the greatest and most powerful nation on Earth, am going to order that the troops in Afghanistan continue their tour there till after 2016.

On top of that, and with careful consideration, I am also sending an additional 100,000 troops to the Middle East to once and for all, defeat these ISIS sons of bitches. Thank you, America."


But this n*gga ain't got these kinda balls.

Throw in a 'In this fight against ISIS, you're either with us, or against us.'

We have the most powerful military in history. **** em.

Either go that way, or get out entirely. Too much halfassing in the war cost us lives and time.

[Patrick Chewing]

Throw in a 'In this fight against ISIS, you're either with us, or against us.'

We have the most powerful military in history. **** em.

Either go that way, or get out entirely. Too much halfassing in the war cost us lives and time.


Yes! The only saving grace this guy has is if he goes out a badass by not mincing words.

I would at least respect a President with balls against terrorism rather than throw darts at his face during break hour in the coffee room.

[KevinNYC]

[I]"Listen here, people. I, Barack Hussein Obama, President of the greatest and most powerful nation on Earth, am going to order that the troops in Afghanistan continue their tour there till after 2016.......
Pat, a lot of what informs your politics is a vast overestimation of American Power and the limits of American Power.

The last decade and a half has been one lesson in these limits after another.

We are very good at knocking shit over, but we are not an old-time colonial superpower where we are going to keep territory forever. This isn't the British Raj. So the question becomes what happens after we knock shit down? How do we secure our objectives after we knock shit down? Who runs things? Are they able to run things with US military power?

In Iraq, we hung the Mission Accomplished Banner after 3 months of conventional warfare. Yet the war continued and became asymmetric warfare and we were fighting two different insurgencies, one Sunni and one Shia. Terrorist groups like the one that would morph into ISIS would emerge. Even after the US transferred political power to Iraqis, the two insurgencies would continue and eventually become a full blown civil war. Several years after the invasion, we only beat back the insurgency after a change in US strategy, a change in Iraqi domestic strategy and more US troops. And what were we left with. A sectarian leader who aligned with Iran and had no interest in setting up a national government and set about repressing his enemies. And I haven't even mentioned the Kurds.

Holding territory after you attack takes a lot more resources than the initial attack. Asymmetric/insurgent warfare is all about hiding among the population.

How long would you keep the 100,000 troops in "The Middle East" to achieve what we set out to achieve.

General Petraeus in 2003 was fond of asking "Tell me how this ends." It was his commentary on strategic incoherence and matching our objectives to our means and the limits of American power.

People on the other side your politics also like to overestimate American power. They pretend that US started the Syrian civil war. They also seem to think that if the US stopped all activity in Syria, the war would stop.