I thing I will never understand about sports and ranking players

[hateraid]

Sports is subjective. Who you consider is subjective to a whole bunch of factors from eye test, to accomplishments, to comparing eras...so on and so forth. So no list would ever be a definitive list, correct?

Is it me or is the Jordan fan base the MOST insecure out of any sport or fanbase when it pertains to this idea? There are more Jordan fans that would say he is the GOAT and say it is irrefutable than any other player in any sport. The most ready to impose themselves and belittle anyone who would even try to share their personal input into the subject. I'm a fan of hockey and even Gretzky supporters are more open minded to him being challenged and respect other's.

My question to these people is, is sports not subjective? Even though people respect your opinion on the subject, why is it hard for this fanbase to accept nothing is definitive.

Explain from a stan POV and an outsider POV

[Foster5k]

Jordan has the stats to back it up though. That, with the eye test, places him in that #1 spot. Not to mention, most of his peers that have played ball agree.

[JT123]

Sports is subjective. Who you consider is subjective to a whole bunch of factors from eye test, to accomplishments, to comparing eras...so on and so forth. So no list would ever be a definitive list, correct?

Is it me or is the Jordan fan base the MOST objective out of any sport or fanbase when it pertains to this idea? There are more Jordan fans that would say he is the GOAT and say it is irrefutable than any other player in any sport. The most ready to impose themselves and belittle anyone who would even try to share their personal input into the subject. I'm a fan of hockey and even Gretzky supporters are more open minded to him being challenged and respect other's.

My question to these people is, is sports not subjective? Even though people respect your opinion on the subject, why is it hard for this fanbase to accept nothing is definitive.

Explain from a stan POV and an outsider POV
Do you know what objective means? I think the word you were looking for is insecure.

[hateraid]

Do you know what objective means? I think the word you were looking for is insecure.
Maybe that's a better word. I was more trying to use it in context to reject the idea

[Kobe_6/8]

Official NBA statement: By acclamation, Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time

[hateraid]

Jordan has the stats to back it up though. That, with the eye test, places him in that #1 spot. Not to mention, most of his peers that have played ball agree.
That's not the point. I'm not arguing why Jordan is your opinion the best, I'm asking why is it is his fanbase more than anyone else refuse to accept other people's opinions.

[hateraid]

Official NBA statement: By acclamation, Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time

Again, not really the point. Not arguing if he is the greatest.

[Marchesk]

Jordan has the stats to back it up though. That, with the eye test, places him in that #1 spot. Not to mention, most of his peers that have played ball agree.

Eye test because he's more recent than Russell, Wilt or Kareem for most of his career? Or for that matter, ABA Dr J?

Older players don't necessarily agree that MJ is GOAT.

[Nuff Said]

That's not the point. I'm not arguing why Jordan is your opinion the best, I'm asking why is it is his fanbase more than anyone else refuse to accept other people's opinions.
Because he absolutely dominated the ****in sport? Got damn have you not watched basketball at all or something? Jordan has stats, accolades, and eye test on his side. Any criteria you can go by Jordan will be at the top of the list. How can you argue against 5 mvp's and 6 fmvp's, with two three peats??

[bukowski81]

That's not the point. I'm not arguing why Jordan is your opinion the best, I'm asking why is it is his fanbase more than anyone else refuse to accept other people's opinions.

I guess it depends on who the "other people" are. If the other people is just a troll in this forum, which is more often than not the people arguing Jordan isnt GOAT, I think its easy to see why they wont accept or respect their opinion.

[Marchesk]

Because he absolutely dominated the ****in sport? Got damn have you not watched basketball at all or something? Jordan has stats, accolades, and eye test on his side. Any criteria you can go by Jordan will be at the top of the list. How can you argue against 5 mvp's and 6 fmvp's, with two three peats??

Kareem has 6 MVPs and 6 titles with more finals appearances. Russell's teams won 11 out of 13 years, and only lost a finals when he got hurt. Wilt still owns the record book. Some who saw ABA Dr J play say he was the best they ever saw.

My opinion is to rank Jordan as #1, but it would be easy to make a counter argument in favor of another all-time great.

[RidonKs]

sports are too fluid for confident ranking, so you're right not to understand it. think about everything that goes on reflexively in your head and deliberately in your mind when you're playing basketball.. then multiply that by 10, then by a few more times factoring in strategy and coaching, and once more by 29 to consider the other teams in the equation... lastly you have to account for cross-era comparisons, the most difficult factor of all.


most opinion stems from consensus, then confirmation, then a bit of suspicion/skepticism about that consensus... so maybe i think russell's streak was more impressive than jordan's or ironmen like malone and kobe deserve more credit than bird and magic who played for so few years.


but you shouldn't look at the stanbase as signifying anything about basketball rankings. people are dogmatic all over. how could they possibly believe everything is subjective and that their opinion is the best one at the same time? this goes across all subjects imo

[Marchesk]

I guess it depends on who the "other people" are. If the other people is just a troll in this forum, which is more often than not the people arguing Jordan isnt GOAT, I think its easy to see why they wont accept or respect their opinion.

I'm pretty sure you can find retired players and long-time fans of the game who would argue for Kareem, Wilt or Russell.

I forget, who did Scottie say was the best ever?

[bukowski81]

I'm pretty sure you can find retired players and long-time fans of the game who would argue for Kareem, Wilt or Russell.

I forget, who did Scottie say was the best ever?

Thats not my point, my point is answering why Jordan fanbase on ISH wont accept the opinion of others. Here on ISH, more often than not, the ones arguing against Jordan are trolls or stans of some dude.

I am well aware that some great basketball minds rank other guys as GOAT.

[hateraid]

Because he absolutely dominated the ****in sport? Got damn have you not watched basketball at all or something? Jordan has stats, accolades, and eye test on his side. Any criteria you can go by Jordan will be at the top of the list. How can you argue against 5 mvp's and 6 fmvp's, with two three peats??
Man this thread is off to a bad start as I suspected.
You missed the point again. I'll give you an example.
In the hockey fanbase Gretzky is the most widely accepted GOAT in that sport. He has even more accolades and accomplishments. He holds more records in hockey than any other player in their sport. Yet Gretzky supporters are open minded to other people's opinions to whom they feel is ranked higher.

So again, try and grasp what the question is as opposed to sounding like another delusional fanboy

[Marchesk]

It's also the fact that you can't seperate Jordan's team success from Jordan's teammates and coaching staff, in particular Pippen and Phil with the triangle system.

Now Jordan was the most important part of that, obviously. That's why he gets lots of GOAT love. But we don't know how successful his teams would have been under a different situation. Jordan would still be great, but he was great when he entered the league, and the Bulls weren't. There is something to be said for Phil helping him to be a better team player. And something to be said for the emergence of Pippen.

It's also the case that the Bulls dynasty coincided with the Magic and Bird leaving their primes, and the Pistons existing their championship contention status. MJ didn't win six titles in the 80s, where it would have been more challenging. This isn't to demean the Jazz, Suns, etc as they were very good teams, but they weren't the 86 Celtics, 83 Sixers or 87 Lakers.

[hateraid]

sports are too fluid for confident ranking, so you're right not to understand it. think about everything that goes on reflexively in your head and deliberately in your mind when you're playing basketball.. then multiply that by 10, then by a few more times factoring in strategy and coaching, and once more by 29 to consider the other teams in the equation... lastly you have to account for cross-era comparisons, the most difficult factor of all.


most opinion stems from consensus, then confirmation, then a bit of suspicion/skepticism about that consensus... so maybe i think russell's streak was more impressive than jordan's or ironmen like malone and kobe deserve more credit than bird and magic who played for so few years.


but you shouldn't look at the stanbase as signifying anything about basketball rankings. people are dogmatic all over. how could they possibly believe everything is subjective and that their opinion is the best one at the same time? this goes across all subjects imo

This is why you're amongst the brightest posters. Relates to the topic and not revert it to defending Jordan :applause:

[Marchesk]

What we also don't know is where we would rank Magic if he didn't have to retire early.

His team success rivals that of Jordan's as it is. Even with the early retirement, a case can be made for Magic as GOAT. Not a strong one, but it can be made.

[livinglegend]

Because he absolutely dominated the ****in sport? Got damn have you not watched basketball at all or something? Jordan has stats, accolades, and eye test on his side. Any criteria you can go by Jordan will be at the top of the list. How can you argue against 5 mvp's and 6 fmvp's, with two three peats??

He is not at the top of the list in many of them.
Winning ----> Russell is at the top..... by a huge margin.
Stats-----> Wilt at the top.
Longevity ----> Kareem
....

[Rocketswin2013]

What's something to me is how stupid Jordan fans are.

They have no grasp on why Jordan was as good as he was. They suck his **** over superficial things.

[livinglegend]

Jordan has the stats to back it up though. That, with the eye test, places him in that #1 spot. Not to mention, most of his peers that have played ball agree.

Not everyone who uses stats to rank the players.
That's YOUR way of ranking them.
It's subjective.
And if you only use stats, Wilt would probably be #1.

[Marchesk]

He is not at the top of the list in many of them.
Winning ----> Russell is at the top.
Stats-----> Wilt at the top.
Longevity ----> Kareem
....

Also Dr J's combined ABA & NBA career stats rank with anyone's. And he would have several more MVPs and titles. But people tend to think the ABA doesn't count, so the Doc gets no mention as a potential GOAT.

[livinglegend]

Because he absolutely dominated the ****in sport? Got damn have you not watched basketball at all or something? Jordan has stats, accolades, and eye test on his side. Any criteria you can go by Jordan will be at the top of the list. How can you argue against 5 mvp's and 6 fmvp's, with two three peats??

That's another subjective statement.
Your definition of domination is different from mine and many others.
To me, Russell dominated the sport more by winning 11 champs in 12 tries.

[Foster5k]

Not everyone who uses stats to rank the players.
That's YOUR way of ranking them.
It's subjective.
And if you only use stats, Wilt would probably be #1.
Did you read what I wrote? I said stats and the eye test. Also, I said most of his peers said he was the GOAT.

You're kidding yourself if you think Jordan wouldn't win the vote for GOAT among everyone who has ever played professional ball that is still alive. Yes, Wilt, Kareem, Russell, etc would all get votes. However, the majority would vote for Jordan.

[outbreak]

Sports is subjective. Who you consider is subjective to a whole bunch of factors from eye test, to accomplishments, to comparing eras...so on and so forth. So no list would ever be a definitive list, correct?

Is it me or is the Jordan fan base the MOST insecure out of any sport or fanbase when it pertains to this idea? There are more Jordan fans that would say he is the GOAT and say it is irrefutable than any other player in any sport. The most ready to impose themselves and belittle anyone who would even try to share their personal input into the subject. I'm a fan of hockey and even Gretzky supporters are more open minded to him being challenged and respect other's.

My question to these people is, is sports not subjective? Even though people respect your opinion on the subject, why is it hard for this fanbase to accept nothing is definitive.

Explain from a stan POV and an outsider POV

This guy is the biggest undisputed GOAT in his chosen sport.
http://sportinghistory.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/donald-bradman.jpg

[livinglegend]

Did you read what I wrote? I said stats and the eye test. Also, I said most of his peers said he was the GOAT.

You're kidding yourself if you think Jordan wouldn't win the vote for GOAT among everyone who has ever played professional ball that is still alive. Yes, Wilt, Kareem, Russell, etc would all get votes. However, the majority would vote for Jordan.

So?
That doesn't diminish other people's opinions.
Your behaviour is exactly what OP is talking about.
Good thread OP.

And stop using ''eye test'' as something objective. It varies from 1 person to another.

[Foster5k]

So?
That doesn't diminish other people's opinions.
Your behaviour is exactly what OP is talking about.
Good thread OP.

And stop using ''eye test'' as something objective. It varies from 1 person to another.
Never said it diminishes anyone's opinion. I understand that these so called GOAT rankings are somewhat subjective. However, there are still only a few names that ever get mentioned. Jordan, Kareem, and Russell. Arguably, Kareem and Russell are the only two guys that can stand next to Jordan for the GOAT title.

Both of those guys are big men. Arguably, someone could say it takes more skill to dominate for a guard. I think that's what a lot of people take into consideration.

[livinglegend]

Never said it diminishes anyone's opinion. I understand that these so called GOAT rankings are somewhat subjective. However, there are still only a few names that ever get mentioned. Jordan, Kareem, and Russell. Arguably, Kareem and Russell are the only two guys that can stand next to Jordan for the GOAT title.

Both of those guys are big men. Arguably, someone could say it takes more skill to dominate for a guard. I think that's what a lot of people take into consideration.

So basically your first post was pointless and didn't add anything to the topic OP started.

[Foster5k]

So basically your first post was pointless and didn't add anything to the topic OP started.
With that logic, every post ever posted is pointless. I gave my opinion. You obviously didn't agree with it. That's life bud.

[livinglegend]

With that logic, every post ever posted is pointless. I gave my opinion. You obviously didn't agree with it. That's life bud.

you gave your opinion, but you were off-topic.
your post had nothing to do with what OP asked.

[Straight_Ballin]

Man this thread is off to a bad start as I suspected.
You missed the point again. I'll give you an example.
In the hockey fanbase Gretzky is the most widely accepted GOAT in that sport. He has even more accolades and accomplishments. He holds more records in hockey than any other player in their sport. Yet Gretzky supporters are open minded to other people's opinions to whom they feel is ranked higher.

So again, try and grasp what the question is as opposed to sounding like another delusional fanboy

You are getting trolled hard by Gretzky supporters man. Let's put this into perspective:

Gretzky
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2nd best Hockey player of all time


Jordan
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2nd best basketball player of all time

[Foster5k]

You are getting trolled hard by Gretzky supporters man. Let's put this into perspective:

Gretzky
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2nd best Hockey player of all time


Jordan
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2nd best basketball player of all time
Agreed.

[NuggetsFan]

Yeah Gretzky was just flat out filthy. Dominated his sport far more than Jordan did. Orr and I guess somebody like Mario could put up a case in the sense that if maybe they had better health things would be closer. Orr being a dman would probably have the small amount of fans behind him.Maybe similar to the Wilt guys vs MJ.

Gretzky really isn't argued against tho. NHL fans don't have the same weird obsession with individuals that NBA fans do. That's probably your answer. 35 year old men still idolize basketball players like there 10 years old. Other sports? Guys are obviously huge fans of individual players as well but usually not above the team they support.

The NBA has different fans than the NFL/NHL it seems. Even just from posting on msgboards online. Some people really do develop emotional attachment to players instead of teams. Just look at ISH. You can legit tell some of these guys look up to MJ :lol

[sdot_thadon]

Op, it's a bit complicated. 1st you have to understand, for my generation he was our hero. Better yet THE hero. Spotless and carefully maintained public image, 1st of its kind marketing that still has lasting effects to this day, oh and he was that damn good. Perfect storm of circumstances that incite a religious like following. I was one of those guys as a kid, I think it's mostly nostalgia. The most extreme cases seem like hero worship, some of us grow out of it and some of us carry it long into adulthood.

[JT123]

Some people really do develop emotional attachment to players instead of teams. Just look at ISH. You can legit tell some of these guys look up to MJ :lol
Sad thing is most of them are nearly 50 years old. :facepalm

[Foster5k]

Sad thing is most of them are nearly 50 years old. :facepalm
3ball stand up.

[hateraid]

So?
That doesn't diminish other people's opinions.
Your behaviour is exactly what OP is talking about.
Good thread OP.

And stop using ''eye test'' as something objective. It varies from 1 person to another.

BINGO!
I'm glad someone else figured out the context of the thread.
Foster5K, me or livinglegend aren't disputing that is YOUR opinion. The thread is not out to prove MJ is not the GOAT. The thread is about why MJ stans cannot understand that the subject is subjective and open to each own's interpretations. You took 3 stabs at it already, now try and read this thoroughly before you back trying to uselessly defend Jordan.

[hateraid]

You are getting trolled hard by Gretzky supporters man. Let's put this into perspective:

Gretzky
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2nd best Hockey player of all time


Jordan
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2nd best basketball player of all time

Again not the point. Listen up, you too Foster. Regardless if this comparison is true or not, it's that people who believe Gretzky is the GOAT are far more open minded and accepting to people who argue otherwise. Not the case with Jordan stans. It is evident in this thread as it has yet to follow the context of what the thread is about. They keep going back to defending their position as opposed to accepting that people may have different opinions.

[hateraid]

Op, it's a bit complicated. 1st you have to understand, for my generation he was our hero. Better yet THE hero. Spotless and carefully maintained public image, 1st of its kind marketing that still has lasting effects to this day, oh and he was that damn good. Perfect storm of circumstances that incite a religious like following. I was one of those guys as a kid, I think it's mostly nostalgia. The most extreme cases seem like hero worship, some of us grow out of it and some of us carry it long into adulthood.

So you're saying nostalgia makes people delusional? I can agree with that.
Let me ask you this, in regards to what I'm asking....Do you think that the GOAT is open to interpretation?
P.S, he was also my generation. I graduated HS in 95 in the midst of his career. Yet, I get treated like I less credible because I disagree.

[hateraid]

Yeah Gretzky was just flat out filthy. Dominated his sport far more than Jordan did. Orr and I guess somebody like Mario could put up a case in the sense that if maybe they had better health things would be closer. Orr being a dman would probably have the small amount of fans behind him.Maybe similar to the Wilt guys vs MJ.

Gretzky really isn't argued against tho. NHL fans don't have the same weird obsession with individuals that NBA fans do. That's probably your answer. 35 year old men still idolize basketball players like there 10 years old. Other sports? Guys are obviously huge fans of individual players as well but usually not above the team they support.

The NBA has different fans than the NFL/NHL it seems. Even just from posting on msgboards online. Some people really do develop emotional attachment to players instead of teams. Just look at ISH. You can legit tell some of these guys look up to MJ :lol

It is based on one's own interpretation. Lemuiex is argued to be better, Orr is also. But a Gretzky stan doesn't get as bent out of shape about as a Jordan stan would. They simply agree to disagree. Jordan stans are more, "nope, it's definitive. You're delusional if you think otherwise."
And yes, NBA fans have a far more weird obsession.

[sdot_thadon]

So you're saying nostalgia makes people delusional? I can agree with that.
Let me ask you this, in regards to what I'm asking....Do you think that the GOAT is open to interpretation?
P.S, he was also my generation. I graduated HS in 95 in the midst of his career. Yet, I get treated like I less credible because I disagree.
I didn't at one point in time, but somewhere along the way i got it and know better now. It's totally open to interpretation, simply because it's opinion based. I've always respected other's lists simply because people cite different criteria and weigh certain aspects differently than others. There is a handful of players with cases for goat, as long as they have a solid case I can't help but respect that particular opinion. I find myself posting in these type of topics quite often, only really debating off base points in arguments rather than the argument itself. It's insane how these guys attack posters for not sharing their views though, even more alarming when you consider the age some of them must be.

[hateraid]

I didn't at one point in time, but somewhere along the way i got it and know better now. It's totally open to interpretation, simply because it's opinion based. I've always respected other's lists simply because people cite different criteria and weigh certain aspects differently than others. There is a handful of players with cases for goat, as long as they have a solid case I can't help but respect that particular opinion. I find myself posting in these type of topics quite often, only really debating off base points in arguments rather than the argument itself. It's insane how these guys attack posters for not sharing their views though, even more alarming when you consider the age some of them must be.

Amen brother!
See I'm in total alignment with you. I think everyone's criteria is completely different. The one group that can't understand it is Jordan fans. Just like my previous example. I'm all in with the notion Gretzky is the GOAT hockey player, but I won't go into delusional spiral if someone challenged me with Lemuiex or Orr. I'd say they were wrong but they are entitled to that opinion.
This is why I can't take the NBA message board seriously. There are more those Jordan stan types and the people who love to get a reaction out of them. It's pretty petty

[redrich2000]

It's subjective in another way as well, any given player can only beat the opposition that's on the court in front of them. And and any particular player's skill is developed playing against players from a particular era. So their game develops to beat those specific players. But a different opponent might have prompted the development of different skills, tactics etc.

Bill Russell found a way to beat every opponent he faced. Whose to say he wouldn't have found a way against Jordan? Bird found ways to beat that great Lakers team with Magic and Kareem and vice versa. And so on.

Obviously we can speculate on this but it can never be truly objective of certain.

[hateraid]

It's subjective in another way as well, any given player can only beat the opposition that's on the court in front of them. And and any particular player's skill is developed playing against players from a particular era. So their game develops to beat those specific players. But a different opponent might have prompted the development of different skills, tactics etc.

Bill Russell found a way to beat every opponent he faced. Whose to say he wouldn't have found a way against Jordan? Bird found ways to beat that great Lakers team with Magic and Kareem and vice versa. And so on.

Obviously we can speculate on this but it can never be truly objective of certain.

Precisely. All in what you perceive as greatness.

[RidonKs]

It's subjective in another way as well, any given player can only beat the opposition that's on the court in front of them. And and any particular player's skill is developed playing against players from a particular era. So their game develops to beat those specific players. But a different opponent might have prompted the development of different skills, tactics etc.

Bill Russell found a way to beat every opponent he faced. Whose to say he wouldn't have found a way against Jordan? Bird found ways to beat that great Lakers team with Magic and Kareem and vice versa. And so on.

Obviously we can speculate on this but it can never be truly objective of certain.
i hope that some time around the corner some hoops hound writes a book about the kinds of trends in the nba you're talking about. there's no question at any given point there is a reigning heavyweight in the league.. and a great deal of focus is put on beating that heavyweight.

so when wilt and russ and kareem were done dominating you had a stretch 10 years later of the best batch of centers we have ever seen. after mj retired, all of these jocular superstar shooting guards show up replicating his style and trying to win using his tools... those are the two obvious examples i guess but there must be many more as you go on down the line. adjustments to rule changes and certain strategies that the whole league eventually adopts and then must counter would make it in as factors too.