MJ missed today's spaced-out, ballhandler-friendly, high screen-roll bonanza

[3ball]

.
MJ played before today's high-screen roll craze where defenders are drawn to the perimeter by 3-point shooting, thus creating an open paint - this allows ballhandlers to get ALL the way to the rim:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-28-2015/4zdttU.gif



But back when MJ played, the paint wasn't wide open after the screen roll because there were no 3-point shooters drawing defenders to the perimeter - so MJ couldn't get all the way to the hole like today's player and had to pull-up for a lot of mid-range jumpers:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2015/NwamL4.gif


Considering MJ averaged 30/9/11/51% at point guard in 1989 with barely ANY high screen rolls and NO spacing, I imagine his eyes would light up when he saw today's wide open paint.

Honestly, in today's game, he'd be the primary ballhandler a ton, but he'd also post up, play off-ball and isolate via triple-thread a ton.. He'd be elite in more areas offensively than any other player, while still being the league's foremost primary (all-game) defender of the 1-3 positions.

[ISHGoat]

shut the **** up 3ball

[Hey Yo]

Considering MJ averaged 30/9/11/51% at point guard in 1989 with barely ANY high screen rolls and NO spacing
Maybe he should have played more PG against the Pistons in the ECF.

Could have kept him from shooting a total of 8FGA in game 5 with the series tied at 2 and probably won the game. He was to hesitant to shoot for some reason. Let his team down big time.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198905310DET.html

[3ball]

Exactly, the NBA banned paint-camping.. So instead of paint-camping and contesting guards at the rim, the ban forces big men to come OUT of their wheelhouse (the paint) to contest guards in THEIR wheelhouse, the perimeter.. Even Austin Rivers (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=374490) can be a superstar by beating bigs on the perimeter and finishing on unprotected rims.

Of course, previous eras shaded heavily in screen-roll situations too (seen below) - MJ destroyed these situations, but he had to pull-up for more jumpers, because after the screen-roll, the paint would still be crowded because there was no spacing to draw everyone to the perimeter:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=358589&page=8..

[Hey Yo]

Could have kept him from shooting a total of 8FGA in game 5 with the series tied at 2 and probably won the game. He was to hesitant to shoot for some reason. Let his team down big time.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...905310DET.html

[ShawkFactory]

OP is a f@g?

[3ball]

OP is a f@g?
MJ missed out on today's high screen-roll craze, where the court is SET UP for ballhandlers to succeed and have maximum control of the game.

Today's spaced-out, open court and high screen rolls would allow MJ more opportunity to dominate and control the game than he had in his era - back then, they didn't have the 3-point shooting needed to draw defenders out and create an open paint like today's game.

[HighFlyer23]

3ball do you have a life outside that retired bald headed n1kka who used to bounce an orange ball around?

[hateraid]

They did you numb nut. Have you ever heard of Stockton to Malone? In fact it was much more effective back then. MJ never ran it because:
A) He wasn't a 3 point threat
B) He played in a triangle practically his whole career

[3ball]

They did you numb nut. Have you ever heard of Stockton to Malone? In fact it was much more effective back then. MJ never ran it because:
A) He wasn't a 3 point threat
B) He played in a triangle practically his whole career
The screen roll is more effective as a high screen roll with 3-point shooting than a screen-roll that begins closer to the hoop with little or no 3-point shooting to space the floor.

This is all fact, which is why Stockton and Malone were the only guys skilled enough with perfect enough chemistry to run the non-spaced, low screen rolls that were available back then as their primary offense.
.

[kennethgriffin]

a) theres barely any iso today

b) theres barely any post up today

c) theres barely any mid range today


coaches go for team oriented PG dominated offenses that promote ball movement

jordan didnt like handling the ball or playing a catch and shoot game

he iso'd mid range and posted. which doesnt happen anymore on a championship team



i cant see jordan playing the warriors/spurs style

[3ball]

a) theres barely any iso today


Over 25% of Harden and Lebron's possessions are isolations - this is statistical fact, as shown by the NBA's player-tracking stats on NBA.com... (in the playoffs, 33% of Lebron's possessions were isolations).

Another 25% is screen-roll... So over half of their offense is isolations or screen-rolls.. This is statistical fact, so stop lying in this forum.





coaches go for team oriented PG dominated offenses that promote ball movement


Oxymoron





jordan didnt like handling the ball or playing a catch and shoot game


^^^^^ All lies - as a ball-dominant PG, he averaged 30/9/11 on 51%.

And MJ had an elite catch-and-shoot game - he has MANY games where he scores 40 or 50 on mostly jumpers, including a ton of catch-and-shoot jumpers... He has scored more points via catch-and-shoot than JJ Redick.






i cant see jordan playing the warriors/spurs style


Spurs and Warriors run equal-opportunity offenses - MJ won 6 rings and led the league in scoring within a much stricter equal-opportunity offense than the Warriors or Spurs, which required even LESS time of possession (quick decisions required).

MJ is the goat at scoring quickly and quick decision-making.
.

[hateraid]

The screen roll is more effective as a high screen roll with 3-point shooting than a screen-roll that begins closer to the hoop with little or no 3-point shooting to space the floor.

This is all fact, which is why Stockton and Malone were the only guys skilled enough with perfect enough chemistry to run the non-spaced, low screen rolls that were available back then as their primary offense.
.

:facepalm
Since you are so enamoured with video evidence watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XLvqH9qoik

7 minutes of footage with ALL high screen rolls WITH a career 38% 3-point shooter. Look for yourself. All plays started from the 3 point line.

I usually ignore your circus act, but this comment forced me to engage. Don't be stupid and try to argue.
Not to mention you could not come up with an answer to the fact that I brought up he played in a triangle which further helped his offense. He lacked the 3-point shot to run this effectively.

Now go to sleep. Put this thread to bed

[ShawkFactory]

MJ missed out on today's high screen-roll craze, where the court is SET UP for ballhandlers to succeed and have maximum control of the game.

Today's spaced-out, open court and high screen rolls would allow MJ more opportunity to dominate and control the game than he had in his era - back then, they didn't have the 3-point shooting needed to draw defenders out and create an open paint like today's game.
You could have just said yes.

Though I guess control + V is a little easier.

[3ball]

not sure what you're referring to

[Spurs m8]

3ball, you're in haterades head tbh

[kennethgriffin]

this isnt the right era for MJ


pure and simple


its not an isolation mid range post up star 2guards league anymore


absolutely every single thing about the league says otherwise



2guards have become spot up shooters again



i dont see how a guy like MJ could dominate without a great long range shooting touch



jordan would average around what lebron averaged last season on the same percentages


25ppg on 47-48%

[hateraid]

not sure what you're referring to

Lol, had a whole response to my post then reneged. I love this guy

[3ball]

Lol, had a whole response to my post then reneged. I love this guy
From a mathematical standpoint, the lack of 3-point shooting in previous eras made posting, off-ball plays and isolations preferable to screen-roll/drive-and-kick, since driving-and-kicking for 2 pointers isn't nearly as efficient as driving-and-kicking or 3 pointers.. But due to the rare, perfect chemistry between Stockton and Malone, the Jazz became the only team that got away with basing their offense around screen-roll over more efficient post-ups.

However, as your video shows, the spacing and efficiency of the Jazz screen-roll was hampered by closer screen-setting (usually several feet inside the 3-point line), no top-of-the-key screen rolls, and obviously weaker 3-point shooting.. The resuting lower efficiency of their screen-rolls (compared to today's screen-rolls) was enough to prevent them from winning a ring and being a greater team than they were over the years.
.

[3ball]

i dont see how a guy like MJ could dominate without a great long range shooting touch



Wade and Westbrook led league in scoring in 2009 and 2015 with a worse 3-point shot and far worse mid-range shot than MJ.

And MJ can double-pump from the FT line, whereas they can't come anywhere near doing that.. I guess that's why he was able to average 37 PPG on 59% TS despite shooting all 2-pointers amidst every-possession double-teams (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s)... Only the goat has it like that (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210).







jordan would average around what lebron averaged last season on the same percentages

25ppg on 47-48%



Except Lebron shoots 35% from midrange, not 50-55% like MJ.. This is statistical fact.

Lebron's poor midrange means he can't shoot well at high volume - we saw how the 27 shots per game that Lebron took in 2015 playoffs couldn't be achieved on all 3-and-D - but his efficiency couldn't handle the additional midrange required of high volume shooting.. He shot 32.9% from midrange in the 2015 playoffs and 27% outside of 5 feet in the Finals.

Since Lebron has poor midrange efficiency and therefore can't shoot well at high volume, he doesn't require/command a double team to PREVENT high volume.. This is why he wasn't doubled in the 2015 Finals.. It behooved the Warriors to induce Lebron's poor shooting at high volume by not double-teaming - the more shots he takes at 39%, the better for the Warrior defense.. Otoh, MJ's midrange and 1-on-1 efficiency was elite, so he could shoot well at high volume and required a double-team to prevent him from high shot volume - obviously, it wouldn't behoove any team to let MJ shoot 50% at high volume.

[Cocaine80s]

Kenneth ethering 3ball :applause: :applause: :applause:

[CTbasketball92]

Honestly, if James Harden and Westbrook can be so good today, I have no problem believing that MJ would do a good deal better than both of them.

He is a much better shooter than either of them in the midrange, likely shooting in the 46-50% from that area when he was in his prime. I honestly think that if MJ were forced to shoot more 3s or if 3s' were more normalized in his time, he'dve at least been a 37% 3point shooter. His FT% and midrangers and release were all too good for him to be a truly weak 3 point shooter.

He is also much quicker and more agile than James Harden is, while also being a MUCH better leaper w. better body control and huge hands, so he would be scoring and getting to the FT line at will. He is kind of like a 6'6" westbrook, except more precise with his movements and a lethal, lethal midrange jumper, and a higher bball iq.

Even 38 year-old MJ could get by elite defenders pretty regularly with his first step off one quick move. A 22-32-year-old MJ? forget about it. Those lanes were so cluttered back then, but now, its open af. If someone like Kyrie can get an open shot whenever he wants, so can MJ, except he'd be even better.

Def. a 29-31 ppg on 48% FG and 36% 3p% and 7 assists and 5 rebounds and a steal or something like that.

[Cocaine80s]

Honestly, if James Harden and Westbrook can be so good today, I have no problem believing that MJ would do a good deal better than both of them.

He is a much better shooter than either of them in the midrange, likely shooting in the 46-50% from that area when he was in his prime. I honestly think that if MJ were forced to shoot more 3s or if 3s' were more normalized in his time, he'dve at least been a 37% 3point shooter. His FT% and midrangers and release were all too good for him to be a truly weak 3 point shooter.

He is also much quicker and more agile than James Harden is, while also being a MUCH better leaper w. better body control and huge hands, so he would be scoring and getting to the FT line at will. He is kind of like a 6'6" westbrook, except more precise with his movements and a lethal, lethal midrange jumper, and a higher bball iq.

Even 38 year-old MJ could get by elite defenders pretty regularly with his first step off one quick move. A 22-32-year-old MJ? forget about it. Those lanes were so cluttered back then, but now, its open af. If someone like Kyrie can get an open shot whenever he wants, so can MJ, except he'd be even better.

Def. a 29-31 ppg on 48% FG and 36% 3p% and 7 assists and 5 rebounds and a steal or something like that.

So pretty much a slightly better 2012-13 Durant?

Agreed. :cheers:

[Smoke117]

so treeeeeeeew MJ would drop 50 a game on 65% these days, right 3ball? I'm with you bro.

[3ball]

so treeeeeeeew MJ would drop 50 a game on 65% these days, right 3ball? I'm with you bro.
Between 35-40 ppg, depending if he was on a good team or bad.. Remember, Wade and Westbrook led league in scoring in 2009 and 2015 with a worse 3-point shot and far worse mid-range shot than MJ.

Nor could they double-pump with ease from the FT line (http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-03-2015/64Ba72.gif) like MJ..

I guess that's why MJ was able to average 37 PPG on 59% TS despite shooting all 2-pointers amidst every-possession double-teams (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s)... Only the goat has it like that (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210).

[tragicbronson]

How annoying is OP, and he's acting like all the teams play 1 type of pick and roll defense and defense overall, like they are literally not trying to adjust etc, just.... STFU

http://media1.giphy.com/media/6OWIl75ibpuFO/giphy.gif

[3ball]

How annoying is OP... STFU



Remember, Wade and Westbrook led league in scoring in 2009 and 2015 with a worse 3-point shot and far worse mid-range shot than MJ.

Nor could they double-pump with ease from the FT line (http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-03-2015/64Ba72.gif) like MJ..

I guess that's why MJ was able to average 37 PPG on 59% TS despite shooting all 2-pointers amidst every-possession double-teams (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s)... Only the goat has it like that (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210).

[Mr. Jabbar]

http://i61.tinypic.com/2zr2928.png

[GIF REACTION]

http://i61.tinypic.com/2zr2928.png
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[SugarHill]

http://i61.tinypic.com/2zr2928.png
:oldlol:

[3ball]

What 3ball sees


It's what we all see - let me know when the 2009 and 2015 scoring champs (Wade and Westbrook) double-pump with ease from the FT line (http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-03-2015/64Ba72.gif) like MJ.. Also, let me know when they can shoot like "Reggie Miller from the midrange" and are "as strong as Lebron".. No exaggeration needed (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5dXZxj6Zbc&t=0m59s).

I guess that's why MJ was able to average 37 PPG on 59% TS despite shooting all 2-pointers amidst every-possession double-teams (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s)... Only the goat has it like that (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210).

You probably think that me saying MJ got 3 times as many dunks per season as Westbrook is poppcock exaggerration.. It's not - it's statistical fact (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352399).... I back up everything... :pimp:
.

[Cocaine80s]

It's what we all see - let me know when the 2009 and 2015 scoring champs (Wade and Westbrook) double-pump with ease from the FT line (http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-03-2015/64Ba72.gif) like MJ.. Also, let me know when they can (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5dXZxj6Zbc&t=0m59s) shoot like "Reggie Miller from the midrange" and are "as strong as Lebron".. No exaggerration needed.

I guess that's why MJ was able to average 37 PPG on 59% TS despite shooting all 2-pointers amidst every-possession double-teams (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s)... Only the goat has it like that (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210).

You probably think that me saying MJ got 3 times as many dunks per season as Westbrook is poppcock exaggerration.. It's not - it's statistical fact (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352399).... I back up everything... :pimp:
.
Westbrook is a better in game dunker tbh

[3ball]

Westbrook is a better in game dunker tbh


Factually incorrect - Westbrook gets 50 dunks a season... MJ got 150 a season during a time it was harder to get a dunk (higher shots per dunk).. This is all statistical fact (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352399).

There isn't a single dunk Westbrook has done that MJ couldn't do and make it look MUCH easier.. Meanwhile, Westbrook can't do any of these dunks:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11635477&postcount=47


Or these: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11635478&postcount=48

[Cocaine80s]

Factually incorrect - Westbrook gets 50 dunks a season... MJ got 150 a season during a time it was harder to get a dunk (higher shots per dunk).. This is all statistical fact (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=352399).

There isn't a single dunk Westbrook has done that MJ couldn't do and make it look MUCH easier.. Meanwhile, Westbrook can't do any of these dunks:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11635477&postcount=47


Or these: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11635478&postcount=48
False.

Lebron>Jordan

[3ball]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XLvqH9qoik

Here's Jazz highlights with 7 minutes of screen rolls that have a 3-point shooter behind the line.

All plays started from the 3 point line (although the screen-setter is usually several feet inside the line)



From a mathematical standpoint, the lack of 3-point shooting in previous eras made posting, off-ball plays and isolations preferable to screen-roll/drive-and-kick, since driving-and-kicking for 2 pointers isn't nearly as efficient as driving-and-kicking or 3 pointers.. But due to the rare, perfect chemistry between Stockton and Malone, the Jazz became the only team that got away with basing their offense around screen-roll over more efficient post-ups.

However, as your video shows, the spacing and efficiency of the Jazz screen-roll was hampered by closer screen-setting (usually several feet inside the 3-point line), no top-of-the-key screen rolls, and obviously weaker 3-point shooting.. The resuting lower efficiency of their screen-rolls (compared to today's screen-rolls) was enough to prevent them from winning a ring and being a greater team than they were over the years.

[andgar923]

I think the OP wasn't clear on what he meant.

The high screen (pick and roll) was used in the past, but with different results. In the past it was more of the big men being on the receiving end of the pick and roll. Due to more congested lanes and hand checking it was indeed harder for PGs to penetrate.

Today the story is different.

The pick and roll ends with the PG or perimeter player usually driving or finishing, that's due to a less congested lane, and less physical play letting perimeter players roam.

So true, there was a ton of pick and roll back then, just with different results.

Not only do the rules make it easier for perimeter players to roam, there's a number of bigs that don't know how to finish a pick and roll. There's perimeter players that don't have the patience to run and read the pick and roll so the bigs don't set it up properly. Outcome: perimeter players drive or shoot errand shots.

And YES a plethora of 3pt shooters create a sea of space.

[andgar923]

People can hate on OP cause he's annoying to most. But can't hate on what he states, which is usually on point.

And deep down most of these posters hating on him hate that he's right.

He may be annoying and repetitive as f*ck, but shit... he's right!

[GIF REACTION]

A wild LEGENDARY 90's defense appears!
http://i.imgur.com/WPbmRsn.gif

http://lowbird.com/data/images/2015/10/37b0d949d8.gif

[poido123]

A wild LEGENDARY 90's defense appears!
http://i.imgur.com/WPbmRsn.gif

http://lowbird.com/data/images/2015/10/37b0d949d8.gif





One play from one game from one season in the 90's.


Case closed. :oldlol:

[GIF REACTION]

Nope

Happened so much they made a 5 seconds back to the basket rule AKA the Mark Jackson Rule. I'm sure I can find plently of these clear outs.

[andgar923]

There was clear outs.

They still exist today :confusedshrug:

But they've become worse with wide open lanes, less physicality allowed.

[GIF REACTION]

Worse?

It's Rule enforced spacing vs Shooting enforced spacing

[poido123]

Nope

Happened so much they made a 5 seconds back to the basket rule AKA the Mark Jackson Rule. I'm sure I can find plently of these clear outs.


You do realise that bigmen could camp in the paint without the defensive 3 second rule right?

Which is exactly what they did for the most part in the 90s...



For every example of a clear out, a poster like 3ball could show you 10 examples of big men clogging the paint.


Stop, you're embarrassing yourself

[GIF REACTION]

Lol

The 3 second rule has been around since 1981

How many times do I have to repeat this

[poido123]

Lol

The 3 second rule has been around since 1981

How many times do I have to repeat this



http://www.barrystickets.com/blog/nba-rule-changes-over-the-years/


"2001-2002 Illegal defense removed. Defensive three second rule added. No charge area added"


:confusedshrug:

[ShawkFactory]

People can hate on OP cause he's annoying to most. But can't hate on what he states, which is usually on point.

And deep down most of these posters hating on him hate that he's right.

He may be annoying and repetitive as f*ck, but shit... he's right!
I have no problem with Christianity, but I don't like it when people jam it down my throat every second of every day.

[poido123]

I have no problem with Christianity, but I don't like it when people jam it down my throat every second of every day.


Better than someone beheading you because you won't believe in Allah

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

I dont understand teh point of posting a quick gif, on both sides of an arguement.

we should just post multiple, full games and then decide for ourselves.

[ShawkFactory]

Better than someone beheading you because you won't believe in Allah
Who's the equivalent of that here?

[ralph_i_el]

Better than someone beheading you because you won't believe in Allah

So is literally everything else....

[ralph_i_el]

Who's the equivalent of that here?

Kobe fans

[Angel Face]

A wild LEGENDARY 90's defense appears!
http://i.imgur.com/WPbmRsn.gif


Looked a lot like Cleveland's offense this past finals where Lebron was held to 39% shooting <20% above 5ft. :confusedshrug:

[90sgoat]

Looked a lot like Cleveland's offense this past finals where Lebron was held to 39% shooting <20% above 5ft. :confusedshrug:

Except Marc Jackson has a lot smooter post game than Lebron.

[Smoke117]

http://i61.tinypic.com/2zr2928.png

Heh. 3ball is like that guy in your group of friends who talks about the same thing over and over and over. Every time he speaks you are already rolling your eyes.

[3ball]

Heh.



http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-28-2015/4zdttU.gif


MJ never got to play with today's spacing shown in the gif above, where the court is optimally set up for the ball-handler to succeed.. Or maybe you're blind and can't see that...


http://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/webdr06/2013/6/1/21/anigif_enhanced-buzz-31004-1370138395-1.gif

[3ball]

Maybe he should have played more PG against the Pistons in the ECF.



Unlike today's players, MJ didn't have a bevy of 3-point shooting teammates drawing defenders to the perimeter, so the paint was still packed after the screen roll, forcing him to pull-up for a lot of mid-range jumpers:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2015/a_7wTz.gif


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2015/N1zmcy.gif

[No_Look604]

3BALL = TRUE PLAYA FO'REAL...haters can't see him with 20/20 vision!!

A true voice of reason in this cesspool called ISH.

Each post of his is like a breath of fresh air.

[No_Look604]

Except Marc Jackson has a lot smooter post game than Lebron.

EXACTLY....these idiots don't even know...

[CelticBaller]

http://i61.tinypic.com/2zr2928.png
:oldlol:

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-17-2015/2T4am1.gif


As the gif shows, today's 3-point shooting/spacing and hand-check ban makes penetration an automatic, built-in component of the game - look how airy and contact-free Parker's drive into the lane is - it looks more like a performance routine of some kind than a basketball drive.

However, previous eras didn't have nearly the 3-point production that today's game uses to open up the lane.. The paint congestion would force Lebron to pull-up for more midrange jumpshots, like everyone else back then.. The lack of 3-point-shooting personnel would also reduce the efficiency of screen-roll/drive-and-kick - he simply would NOT be using screen-roll as much as he does in today's game.. He'd be forced to use midrange, post and isolation - all areas he's average to bad in..

[SHAQisGOAT]

Looked a lot like Cleveland's offense this past finals where Lebron was held to 39% shooting <20% above 5ft. :confusedshrug:

:lol :applause:

[GIF REACTION]

Looked a lot like Cleveland's offense this past finals where Lebron was held to 39% shooting <20% above 5ft. :confusedshrug:
LeBron James finished the 2015 NBA Finals with averages of 35.8 points, 13.3 rebounds, and 8.8 assists per game.

LeBron James is the first player in NBA Finals history to lead both teams in points, assists and rebounds for the entire series.

Without James on the floor, Cleveland

[Hey Yo]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-17-2015/2T4am1.gif


As the gif shows, today's 3-point shooting/spacing and hand-check ban makes penetration an automatic, built-in component of the game - look how airy and contact-free Parker's drive into the lane is - it looks more like a performance routine of some kind than a basketball drive.

However, previous eras didn't have nearly the 3-point production that today's game uses to open up the lane.. The paint congestion would force Lebron to pull-up for more midrange jumpshots, like everyone else back then.. The lack of 3-point-shooting personnel would also reduce the efficiency of screen-roll/drive-and-kick - he simply would NOT be using screen-roll as much as he does in today's game.. He'd be forced to use midrange, post and isolation
So what you're telling us is that since all those things weren't used back then, James would have been taught and learned to play the game differently growing up back then.... compared to the LeBron we watched during H.S and the NBA?

Isn't that what many have already said 10,000 times?

[3ball]

[QUOTE=GIF REACTION]

Without James on the floor, Cleveland

[3ball]

So what you're telling us is that since all those things weren't used back then, James would have been taught and learned to play the game differently growing up back then.... compared to the LeBron we watched during H.S and the NBA?


If the current Lebron were dropped AS-IS into the 80's - he'd be worse... And if we're assuming he'd grow up in that time period - we have no idea if Lebron could develop as a post player or off-ball player - the fact that he would need to, means he wouldn't be as good back then.

Also, you're forgetting that Lebron can't shoot - he's super-rigid and mechanical like dwight howard... He's got stone hands, not soft touch -consequently, he's 38.8% from the 16-23 foot range, which is below average, and he's 35.8% from 10-16 feet, which is far below-average.

Here's the factual reality - for Lebron to be an elite scorer like 27+ppg in the 80's or 1993, he'd need ELITE midrange or post game, like ALL the leading scorers back then:


Leading Scorers in 1986:

SF Dominique 30.3
SF Dantley 29.8
SF English 29.8
SF Bird 25.8
SF Short 25.5
SF Vandeweghe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0ZCbZq8wWg) 24.8


Leading Scorers in 1987:

SG Michael Jordan 37.1
SF Dominique 29.8
SF Alex English 28.6
SF Larry Bird 28.1
SF Vandeweghe 26.9
PF Kevin McHale 26.1
SF Mark Aguirre 25.7
SG Dale Ellis 24.9


Leading Scorers 1993:

SG Michael Jordan 32.6
SF Dominique 29.9
PF Karl Malone 27.0
C. Hakeem Olajuwon 26.1
SG Chris Mullin 25.9
PF Charles Barkley 25.6
C. Patrick Ewing 24.2
SG Joe Dumars 23.5
C. Shaquille O'Neal 23.4
C. David Robinson 23.4
PF Danny Manning 22.8
SG Drazen Petrovic 22.3
PF Larry Johnson 22.1


Larry Johnson is the first guy listed here that didn't have an elite mid-range shooting touch and/or post game.. Lebron would play a lot like him.. :confusedshrug:

[Hey Yo]

We have no idea if Lebron could develop as a post player or off-ball player - the fact that he would need to, means he wouldn't be as good back then.
How about the fact that he would be growing up, practicing and playing the game the style it was being played back then and not today. Adapting as the game/style/changes and years went on.

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-17-2015/2T4am1.gif


As the gif shows, today's 3-point shooting/spacing and hand-check ban makes penetration an automatic, built-in component of the game - look how airy and contact-free Parker's drive into the lane is - it looks more like a performance routine of some kind than a basketball drive.

However, previous eras didn't have nearly the 3-point production that today's game uses to open up the lane.. The paint congestion would force Lebron to pull-up for more midrange jumpshots, like everyone else back then.. The lack of 3-point-shooting personnel would also reduce the efficiency of screen-roll/drive-and-kick - he simply would NOT be using screen-roll as much as he does in today's game.. He'd be forced to use midrange, post and isolation - all areas he's average to bad in.




How about the fact that he would be growing up, practicing and playing the game the style it was being played back then and not today. Adapting as the game/style/changes and years went on.


If the current Lebron were dropped AS-IS into the 80's - he'd be worse...

And if we're assuming he'd grow up in that time period - we have no idea if Lebron could develop as a post player or off-ball player - the fact that he would need to, means he wouldn't be as good back then.

[90sgoat]

SF Vandeweghe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0ZCbZq8wWg) 24.8



Larry Johnson is the first guy listed here that didn't have an elite mid-range shooting touch and/or post game.. Lebron would play a lot like him.. :confusedshrug:

Vandeweghe looking smooth out there. Big guy who shoots, drives and dunks with the best of them. Must be typical modern anti-white sentiment that he isn't mentioned more. Looks a lot like a Kevin Durant actually (to not compare him only to white players). Such a great shooting touch, swish in the bottom of the net every time.

As for LJ and Lebron, yes I think Lebron would be a slightly better LJ because he passes better, that's why I say he would average something like 20-9-6.

[Hey Yo]

If the current Lebron were dropped AS-IS into the 80's - he'd be worse...

13th year, 5 straight Finals appearances, carrying his team, while declining...safe to say yes, his production would be down.


And if we're assuming he'd grow up in that time period - we have no idea if Lebron could develop as a post player or off-ball player - the fact that he would need to, means he wouldn't be as good back then.
Correct, we would have no idea but it's safe to say that since there was more posting up back then and more mid-range shooting, compared to his rookie year on, he would have a better post and mid-range game cause it was the way the game was taught/played.

[3ball]

13th year, 5 straight Finals appearances


Nobody gives props to the whole "5 straight Finals" garbage, everyone knows those teams were equal to 1st or 2nd Round Western Conference teams.

And when you lose in the Finals, it means you wouldn't have even MADE the Finals in the other conference.. Heck, everyone knows the 2014 Heat were a 1st Round Western Conference team AT BEST.. They barely even make the playoffs in the West.

It's silly to brag about Lebron's eastern conference record, considering we know for a fact that Lebron played competition was far worse:

http://s12.postimg.org/fiwmzsvn1/CIu6g_DI.jpg

[Hey Yo]

Nobody gives props to the whole "5 straight Finals" garbage, everyone knows those teams were equal to 1st or 2nd Round Western Conference teams.

And when you lose in the Finals, it means you wouldn't have even MADE the Finals in the other conference.. Heck, everyone knows the 2014 Heat were a 1st Round Western Conference team AT BEST.. They barely even make the playoffs in the West.

It's silly to brag about Lebron's eastern conference record, considering we know for a fact that Lebron played competition was far worse:

http://s12.postimg.org/fiwmzsvn1/CIu6g_DI.jpg
Dumb

as usual....you're ducking what's presented. Or maybe you just forgot??


https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/fe37dexii7pgrlgna5vw.jpg

[3ball]

Dumb

as usual....you're ducking what's presented.


What did I duck?...

Again, nobody gives props to the whole "5 straight Finals" garbage - everyone knows those teams were equal to 1st or 2nd Round Western Conference teams... Heck, in 2014, the Heat would barely even MAKE the playoffs out West.

It's dumb to brag about Lebron's eastern conference record, considering we know for a fact that Lebron played competition was far worse:

http://s12.postimg.org/fiwmzsvn1/CIu6g_DI.jpg

[Hey Yo]

What did I duck?...

Again, nobody gives props to the whole "5 straight Finals" garbage - everyone knows those teams were equal to 1st or 2nd Round Western Conference teams... Heck, in 2014, the Heat would barely even MAKE the playoffs out West.

It's dumb to brag about Lebron's eastern conference record, considering we know for a fact that Lebron played competition was far worse:

http://s12.postimg.org/fiwmzsvn1/CIu6g_DI.jpg
Correct, we would have no idea but it's safe to say that since there was more posting up back then and more mid-range shooting, compared to LeBron's rookie year on, he would have a better post and mid-range game cause it was the way the game was taught/played.

[sdot_thadon]

If the current Lebron were dropped AS-IS into the 80's - he'd be worse...

And if we're assuming he'd grow up in that time period - we have no idea if Lebron could develop as a post player or off-ball player - the fact that he would need to, means he wouldn't be as good back then.
If he was dropped as is he'd be pretty similar, his game would still apply fairly well. You seem to be jaded to a point where you gloss over the obvious. Even assuming we place his 2015 incarnation which is widely seen as a down year or even the beginning of his decline, he'd still be lebron.

Let's do a quick and dirty breakdown:

1) He'd be a goat tier penetrator in any era ever, I'd love to see the impact roughing up of the 90's would have had on his game. It's anyone's guess but if I took a stab I'd assume current lebron might struggle a bit against certain guys but prime lebron would absolutely wreck that shit. You're talking about a guy who gets fouled constantly and consistently despite these supposed "soft rules". Guys have been riding his hip to the rim for over a decade. Only difference I'd see in the 90's is he'd have more leeway to be rough back. So he'd initiate that much more contact himself because it's all legal in the football 90's right?

2) As a shooter his midrange game has been very streaky throughout his career, ups and downs every year. Still it's good enough for him to live at decent efficiency. He'd also have more moves in mid range than anyone not named Mj in the 90's. Fadeaways, jab steps, stepbacks, you name it he's done it.

3) As a 3 point shooter just dropped into the 90's as is, he'd be an utter beast. The 90's hadn't seen anything like the shots from this era. We all know james is a capable shooter from range especially when he settles down and shoots with balance. But the killer is he was just as good maybe better than Mj at 3 point shooting g while taking turnarounds, stepbacks, pull ups and super deep 3s. Who in the 90's boasted that type of repertoire?

4) As a post player regardless of what you consider his skill level he'd still have a high level of impact. For one he'd still be bigger and stronger than most of his matchups, that's his ace card. In the no no 90's they would be forced to either stay at home and let him work or hard double and show him who's open because it'd be so much easier to see without guys playing free safety out there. So as a passer he'd likely be most effective out of the post 8n the 90's.

5) Lebron ball. It's proven time and time again to be a successful way of playing the game. He'd still be a star and ik sure after one look at what it does for his team damn near any coach that's ever lived is going to feel that can be useful in spots at bare minimum.

In short: He'd be ok in any era.

[3ball]

:facepalm

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-17-2015/2T4am1.gif


1) He'd be a goat tier penetrator in any era ever, I'd love to see the impact roughing up of the 90's would have had on his game.



Sorry bro, Lebron isn't even a goat penetrator in this era.. And back then, he wouldn't get easy path to the basket like in today's game - as the gif shows above, today's spacing and hand-check ban makes penetration an automatic, built-in component of the game - look how airy and contact-free Parker's drive into the lane is - it looks more like a performance routine of some kind than a basketball drive.

However, previous eras had a small fraction of the 3-point production that today's game uses to open up the lane.. The paint congestion would force Lebron to pull-up for more midrange jumpshots, like everyone else back then.. The lack of 3-point-shooting personnel would also reduce the efficiency of screen-roll/drive-and-kick - he simply would NOT be using screen-roll as much as he does in today's game.. He'd be forced to use midrange, post and isolation - all areas where his efficiency is average to bad.






2) As a shooter his midrange game has been very streaky throughout his career, ups and downs every year. Still it's good enough for him to live at decent efficiency.



Sorry bro - for Lebron's career, he's 38.8% from the 16-23 foot range, which is below average, and he's 35.8% from 10-16 feet, which is far below-average.. e's mechanical with stone hands, not nice touch.. Basically, he can't shoot, as his midrange stats confirm.

But he'd need good touch from midrange to be a 28-30 point scorer in the 80's or 90's.. Due to the lack of 3-point shooting/spacing to draw defenders out of the paint, the paints were much more congested... Guys couldn't get all the way to the rim and needed to pull-up for midrange - this forced all the 25+ ppg scorers in previous eras to have that needed midrange touch:


Leading Scorers in 1986:

SF Dominique 30.3
SF Dantley 29.8
SF English 29.8
SF Bird 25.8
SF Short 25.5
SF Vandeweghe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0ZCbZq8wWg) 24.8


Leading Scorers in 1987:

SG Michael Jordan 37.1
SF Dominique 29.8
SF Alex English 28.6
SF Larry Bird 28.1
SF Vandeweghe 26.9
PF Kevin McHale 26.1
SF Mark Aguirre 25.7
SG Dale Ellis 24.9


Leading Scorers 1993:

SG Michael Jordan 32.6
SF Dominique 29.9
PF Karl Malone 27.0
C. Hakeem Olajuwon 26.1
SG Chris Mullin 25.9
PF Charles Barkley 25.6
C. Patrick Ewing 24.2
SG Joe Dumars 23.5
C. Shaquille O'Neal 23.4
C. David Robinson 23.4
PF Danny Manning 22.8
SG Drazen Petrovic 22.3
PF Larry Johnson 22.1


Larry Johnson is the first guy listed here that didn't have an elite mid-range and/or post game.. :confusedshrug:





2) He'd also have more moves in mid range than anyone not named Mj in the 90's. Fadeaways, jab steps, stepbacks, you name it he's done it.


His midrange repertoire and shooting touch is horrible - that's why he shot so poorly when he was required to use more midrange to get shots up in the 2015 playoffs.

He's a master of nothing, so his moves look mechanical like Pippen's used to - they aren't fine-tuned where he can rely on them over and over for a big game or reliably in the clutch - other than his travel vs. Wizards in 2006, all his game-winners in the playoffs are catch-and-shoot.. No isolation ability.. That's why his 4th quarter stats are often abysmal in the playoffs and Finals.





3) As a 3 point shooter.. turnarounds, stepbacks, pull ups and super deep 3s. Who in the 90's boasted that type of repertoire?


Larry Bird was way better at every shot you listed... But even Larry wouldn't have been shit without an elite midrange touch, just like every 25 ppg scorer of the 80's listed above.





5) Lebron ball. It's proven time and time again to be a successful way of playing the game.


When comparing players across eras, the fact that Lebron usually leads a top 5 offense is not noteworthy.. Nash, Kevin Johnson, Karl Malone and pretty much any ATG led top 5 offenses as well.. It means nothing.

Otoh, Lebron's stats lack integrity because he achieves them at the expense of teammates - it's a statistical fact that Lebron significantly lowers (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841) the PPG and APG of teammates... With Lebron's production preventing teammates from playing to capacity (lower ppg, apg), the TEAM can't play to capacity and underperforms (2009, 2011, 2014).. His stat accumulation is also helped by employing a stat-friendly, easily-solvable, losing, playground style, rather than the superior, nuanced skill required to achieve stats within an equal-opportunity offense that can actually win..
.

[The_Pharcyde]

a) theres barely any iso today

b) theres barely any post up today

c) theres barely any mid range today


coaches go for team oriented PG dominated offenses that promote ball movement

jordan didnt like handling the ball or playing a catch and shoot game

he iso'd mid range and posted. which doesnt happen anymore on a championship team



i cant see jordan playing the warriors/spurs style

This is where you are wrong

once in a generation talent like lebron, jordan and kobe dictate the pace and decide the type of game it will be

that is what makes them great

that's why everyone was hailing lebrons finals performance up until game 4... he was being a puppet master over the whole game.. dictating the tempo, forcing the warriors into a grind it out game... favoring the cavs gritty injury depleted roster... it didn't prove sustainable in the end however

jordan would be able to play in any era because he is going to dictate the game.. the other teams will be playing off him because he is the greatest on the court... same with all the true greats.. they are the puppet-masters of the game

remember, the talent in the game forces the change of schematics not the other way around.. it all goes in waves

[Thesmallmamba]

Jordan averaged 20 points on 47% TS in the modern era (post-2000s)



Look at this graph http://i.imgur.com/eLU9I.png


2nd worst TS% on his team :facepalm

Basically slightly better than Kwame Brown (he was the Kwame Brown of SGs)

http://i.imgur.com/17hkW.png

Of players with a > 30% Usage, he was one of the WORST IN NBA HISTORY




To call MJ playing in the Modern era the worst player in the league, would not be a exaggeration


If a MJ with a few years removed from a FMVP was one of the worst players in the NBA in the modern era, theres nothing that justifies MJ would be successful in todays NBA





Put a peak MJ in todays NBA, and from analyzing the information from above, I'm not even sure if a prime MJ makes the all-star team in todays nba




How many NBA players made the all-star team with a >30% Usage with a 47% TS percentage?


Exactly

[The_Pharcyde]

Jordan averaged 20 points on 47% TS in the modern era (post-2000s)



Look at this graph http://i.imgur.com/eLU9I.png


2nd worst TS% on his team :facepalm

Basically slightly better than Kwame Brown (he was the Kwame Brown of SGs)

http://i.imgur.com/17hkW.png

Of players with a > 30% Usage, he was one of the WORST IN NBA HISTORY




To call MJ playing in the Modern era the worst player in the league, would not be a exaggeration


If a MJ with a few years removed from a FMVP was one of the worst players in the NBA in the modern era, theres nothing that justifies MJ would be successful in todays NBA





Put a peak MJ in todays NBA, and from analyzing the information from above, I'm not even sure if a prime MJ makes the all-star team in todays nba




How many NBA players made the all-star team with a >30% Usage with a 47% TS percentage?


Exactly


i know you are trolling... but if jordan could not play in todays modern game and is the worst player in the league by no exaggeration .. then logically no player in history pre MJ would be able to thrive in the "modern" NBA

okay

[Thesmallmamba]

i know you are trolling... but if jordan could not play in todays modern game and is the worst player in the league by no exaggeration .. then logically no player in history pre MJ would be able to thrive in the "modern" NBA

okay

How can you disagree, did you even look at the charts? :facepalm


20 points on 47% TS with a >30% usage is NBA worthy? :facepalm

[The_Pharcyde]

How can you disagree, did you even look at the charts? :facepalm


20 points on 47% TS with a >30% usage is NBA worthy? :facepalm


I didn't even give you my opinion on the matter

[sdot_thadon]

Sorry bro, Lebron isn't even a goat penetrator in this era.. And back then, he wouldn't get easy path to the basket like in today's game - as the gif shows above, today's spacing and hand-check ban makes penetration an automatic, built-in component of the game - look how airy and contact-free Parker's drive into the lane is - it looks more like a performance routine of some kind than a basketball drive.

However, previous eras had a small fraction of the 3-point production that today's game uses to open up the lane.. The paint congestion would force Lebron to pull-up for more midrange jumpshots, like everyone else back then.. The lack of 3-point-shooting personnel would also reduce the efficiency of screen-roll/drive-and-kick - he simply would NOT be using screen-roll as much as he does in today's game.. He'd be forced to use midrange, post and isolation - all areas where his efficiency is average to bad.

Trash. If you don't think Lebron excels at driving the ball wtf you think he built his career on thus far? Your analysis is shit.


Sorry bro - for Lebron's career, he's 38.8% from the 16-23 foot range, which is below average, and he's 35.8% from 10-16 feet, which is far below-average.

There isn't a single 25+ ppg scorer in the 80's that didn't have an elite midrange shot and/or post game:


Leading Scorers in 1986:

SF Dominique 30.3
SF Dantley 29.8
SF English 29.8
SF Bird 25.8
SF Short 25.5
SF Vandeweghe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0ZCbZq8wWg) 24.8


Leading Scorers in 1987:

SG Michael Jordan 37.1
SF Dominique 29.8
SF Alex English 28.6
SF Larry Bird 28.1
SF Vandeweghe 26.9
PF Kevin McHale 26.1
SF Mark Aguirre 25.7
SG Dale Ellis 24.9


Leading Scorers 1993:

SG Michael Jordan 32.6
SF Dominique 29.9
PF Karl Malone 27.0
C. Hakeem Olajuwon 26.1
SG Chris Mullin 25.9
PF Charles Barkley 25.6
C. Patrick Ewing 24.2
SG Joe Dumars 23.5
C. Shaquille O'Neal 23.4
C. David Robinson 23.4
PF Danny Manning 22.8
SG Drazen Petrovic 22.3
PF Larry Johnson 22.1


Larry Johnson is the first guy listed here that didn't have an elite mid-range and/or post game.. :confusedshrug:



His midrange repertoire is horrible - that's why he shot so poorly when he was required to use more midrange to get shots up in the 2015 playoffs.

He's a master of nothing, so his moves look mechanical like Pippen's used to - they aren't fine-tuned where he can rely on them over and over for a big game or reliably in the clutch - other than his travel vs. Wizards in 2006, all his game-winners in the playoffs are catch-and-shoot.. No isolation ability.. That's why his 4th quarter stats are often abysmal in the playoffs and Finals.
More trash. Let's stick with what's really happened in the real world. He's had good shooting seasons from mid range and bad. He's done well enough to live at decent efficiency. Period.


Larry Bird was way better at every shot you listed... But even Larry wouldn't have been shit without an elite midrange touch, just like every 25 ppg scorer of the 80's listed above.

Yet again more trash. 1st off bird is a better 3 point shooter I agree, but he simply wouldn't have the volume lebron would shoot if dropped "as-is" into the 90's. They'd nominate him goat instantly.
Bird wasn't doing stuff like that. Who was in the 90's?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KPrkkADMe80



When comparing players across eras, the fact that Lebron usually leads a top 5 offense is not noteworthy.. Nash, Kevin Johnson, Karl Malone and pretty much any ATG led top 5 offenses as well.. It means nothing.

Otoh, Lebron's stats lack integrity because he achieves them at the expense of teammates - it's a statistical fact that Lebron significantly lowers (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841) the PPG and APG of teammates... With Lebron's production preventing teammates from playing to capacity (lower ppg, apg), the TEAM can't play to capacity and underperforms (2009, 2011, 2014).. His stat accumulation is also helped by employing a stat-friendly, easily-solvable, losing, playground style, rather than the superior, nuanced skill required to achieve stats within an equal-opportunity offense that can actually win..
.
Goalposts homeboy. Leave em where they at. Lebron ball= equals winning records. An entire career sample size shows that. Mj ball could barely get his teams above .500 before the triangle.
Triangle > Lebron ball > Mj ball.

[3ball]

.
Let's compare the competition:


https://swishnba.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/opponent-team-records-in-the-playoffs1.jpg?w=648


http://swishnba.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/opponent-team-records-in-the-playoffs1.jpg?w=648

https://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/lebron-hate.jpg



Bigger Overachievement: Jordan's 1989 Playoff Run vs. Lebron's 2007


Jordan's Bulls were 47-25 and the 6 seed.
Lebron's Cavs were 50-32 and the 2 seed.


1st Round Jordan: CLE...(#3 seed, 57-25, #2 ranked defense... 40.0.. 6.0.. 8.1.. 51.8% FG)
1st Round Lebron: WSH (#7 seed, 41-41, #28 ranked defense.. 27.0.. 8.5.. 7.5.. 42.5% FG)

2nd Round Jordan: NYK (#2 seed, 52-30, #10 ranked defense... 35.5.. 9.5.. 8.3.. 64.6% TS.. 55.0% FG)
2nd Round Lebron: NJN (#6 seed, 41-41, #15 ranked defense... 24.7.. 7.3.. 8.5.. 53.7% TS.. 42.3% FG)

Conf. Finals Jordan: DET (#1 seed, 62-30, #3 ranked defense... 30.0.. 5.5.. 6.5.. 46.0% FG)
Conf. Finals Lebron: DET (#1 seed, 53-29, #7 ranked defense... 25.7.. 9.1.. 8.5.. 44.9% FG)


No comparison






Mj ball could barely get his teams above .500 before the triangle.


Pippen's 10/7 on 40% in ECF is the reason the Bulls lost in 6 games to the Bad Boys in 1989.. In that series, MJ averaged 31/7/6 on 46% at a very slow pace against a top DRtg, which is better than Lebron's career playoff averages at a faster pace against much higher DRtg's.

Oh, and there's the worse competition - everyone knows that Lebron had 3 HOF's on those stacked Heat teams, yet in 2011, they would've been a 1st or 2nd round team in the Western Conference... And in 2014, they would've barely even MADE the playoffs out west.. The 2014 Heat went from a 1st Round Western Conference team with Lebron, to a lottery team without - essentially, no difference at all when you consider Wade/Bosh were hurt for much of the year.
.

[sdot_thadon]

.
Let's move the goalposts:


https://swishnba.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/opponent-team-records-in-the-playoffs1.jpg?w=648


http://swishnba.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/opponent-team-records-in-the-playoffs1.jpg?w=648

https://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/lebron-hate.jpg



Bigger Overachievement: Jordan's 1989 Playoff Run vs. Lebron's 2007


Jordan's Bulls were 47-25 and the 6 seed.
Lebron's Cavs were 50-32 and the 2 seed.


1st Round Jordan: CLE...(#3 seed, 57-25, #2 ranked defense... 40.0.. 6.0.. 8.1.. 51.8% FG)
1st Round Lebron: WSH (#7 seed, 41-41, #28 ranked defense.. 27.0.. 8.5.. 7.5.. 42.5% FG)

2nd Round Jordan: NYK (#2 seed, 52-30, #10 ranked defense... 35.5.. 9.5.. 8.3.. 64.6% TS.. 55.0% FG)
2nd Round Lebron: NJN (#6 seed, 41-41, #15 ranked defense... 24.7.. 7.3.. 8.5.. 53.7% TS.. 42.3% FG)

Conf. Finals Jordan: DET (#1 seed, 62-30, #3 ranked defense... 30.0.. 5.5.. 6.5.. 46.0% FG)
Conf. Finals Lebron: DET (#1 seed, 53-29, #7 ranked defense... 25.7.. 9.1.. 8.5.. 44.9% FG)


No comparison




Pippen's 10/7 on 40% in ECF is the reason the Bulls lost in 6 games to the Bad Boys in 1989.. In that series, MJ averaged 31/7/6 on 46% at a very slow pace against a top DRtg, which is better than Lebron's career playoff averages at a faster pace against much higher DRtg's.

Oh, and there's the worse competition - everyone knows that Lebron had 3 HOF's on those stacked Heat teams, yet in 2011, they would've been a 1st or 2nd round team in the Western Conference... And in 2014, they would've barely even MADE the playoffs out west.. The 2014 Heat went from a 1st Round Western Conference team with Lebron, to a lottery team without - essentially, no difference at all when you consider Wade/Bosh were hurt for much of the year.
.
Move them goal posts all you want bro, still doesn't change the fact that Mj ball was far inferior to lebron ball. And yeah let's act like those subpar reg season records all came against the Bad Boys, the 86 celtics etc. Every team wasn't a goat level team back then, the league was top heavy. MJ's teams got their fair share of normal teams too.

Triangle > Lebron ball > Mj ball

[LBJFTW]

How can you disagree, did you even look at the charts? :facepalm


20 points on 47% TS with a >30% usage is NBA worthy? :facepalm

Be quiet Fudge. The adults are speaking now.

[Simple Jack]

.Pippen's 10/7 on 40% in ECF is the reason the Bulls lost in 6 games to the Bad Boys in 1989.. In that series, MJ averaged 31/7/6 on 46% at a very slow pace against a top DRtg, which is better than Lebron's career playoff averages at a faster pace against much higher DRtg's.

Oh, and there's the worse competition - everyone knows that Lebron had 3 HOF's on those stacked Heat teams, yet in 2011, they would've been a 1st or 2nd round team in the Western Conference... And in 2014, they would've barely even MADE the playoffs out west.. The 2014 Heat went from a 1st Round Western Conference team with Lebron, to a lottery team without - essentially, no difference at all when you consider Wade/Bosh were hurt for much of the year.
.

What about Jordan in game 5? 8 FGA (half of them in the first quarter)? 1 FGA in the 4th quarter (which he airballed)? He didn't play well in game 4 either.

[Simple Jack]

I see 3Ball has no response for the above...

[3ball]

Not sure it deserves a sresonse

[3ball]

What about Jordan in game 5? 8 FGA (half of them in the first quarter)? 1 FGA in the 4th quarter (which he airballed)? He didn't play well in game 4 either.
What about it - he averaged 31/7/6 on 46% against All-NBA defenders Dumars and Rodman, and the Jordan Rules.

[3ball]

some misinfomation and misperceptions itt

[3ball]

What about Jordan in game 5? 8 FGA (half of them in the first quarter)? 1 FGA in the 4th quarter (which he airballed)? He didn't play well in game 4 either.



Michael Jordan - the most double-teamed player behind Wilt


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-24-2015/QvXF8J.gif


During the Bulls-Pistons series, the Pistons' 4th quarter policy was to double-team MJ every single time he touched the ball.. Here's an examle from Game 6 of 1989 ECF, starting at the 9 minute mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4W_0I82B18&t=1h21m11s) - MJ is double-teamed 10 of 13 times he touched the ball to finish out the game.. The 3 times he didn't get doubled were because he shot the ball immediately upon the catch - here's all 10 double-teams shown in gifs:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88


Here's a video of him against Atlanta - he's double-teamed 12 of 13 possessions from the 6:40 mark to the 8:40 mark - the consecutive double-teams are shown in rapid succession:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s


If you watch ANY Jordan video, you'll see he's doubled between 30-100% of the time, and his scoring often occurs while avoiding/eluding a double.. This makes the gap between his stats and everyone else's even more impressive.. Here's another video of every-possession double teams vs. Indiana:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOS1qNTWb70

[Simple Jack]

You did nothing to address my point. Talk about Jordan in game 5 that year please. Give me your thoughts.