Predict 2013 Lebron stats in 1993 NBA

[GIF REACTION]

30/8/13 on 55%

He'll get a lot more assists and he'll have a lot more mismatch opportunities to score on in the post and isolation... Rebounds will pretty much be the same more or less...

[Dragonyeuw]

He doesnt have the isolation game to consistently break free from handchecking. Even today, he needs alot of picks to beat his man off the dribble at times, thats gonna be exasperated if his defender can put his hands on his hip or forearm in his back. He's also not going to be a great post presence, not moreso than today. There were way more legit bigs roaming the paint, and he doesnt have the consistent turnaround/fadeaway game with the footwork that MJ had down there. So major production from the post is unlikely, and paths to the basket wont be unobstructed like today with the no hand rules.

He'd probably average the same as he did in 2013, albeit on a a way lower percentage. Im thinking 27 on 48-49% to go with 7 rebounds/assists. His field goal % spiked from all the transition opportunities generated by the Heat, but outside those Heat years he's pretty much a 48-50% scorer.The 80s would have benefitted Lebron moreseo, the pace and run/gun style would benefit his athleticism and skillset to get out in transition. Alot of perimeter players shot 50% in that period, so he likely would be closer to the 53-55% mark in that era.

[Smoke117]

He doesnt have the isolation game to consistently break free from handchecking. Even today, he needs alot of picks to beat his man off the dribble at times, thats gonna be exasperated if his defender can put his hands on his hip or forearm in his back. He's also not going to be a great post presence, not moreso than today. There were way more legit bigs roaming the paint, and he doesnt have the consistent turnaround/fadeaway game with the footwork that MJ had down there. So major production from the post is unlikely, and paths to the basket wont be unobstructed like today with the no hand rules.He'd probably average the same as he did in 2013, albeit on a a way lower percentage. Im thinking 27 on 48% to go with 7 rebounds/assists.

The 80s would have benefitted Lebron moreseo, the pace and run/gun style would benefit his athleticism and skillset to get out in transition.

You should really move to realgm, bro. I dunno why are you are wasting actual intelligent opinions on this elk? But, I also don't understand why I am either. I guess we are both ****ing morons who are gluttonous for punishment.

[GIF REACTION]

He doesnt have the isolation game to consistently break free from handchecking. Even today, he needs alot of picks to beat his man off the dribble at times, thats gonna be exasperated if his defender can put his hands on his hip or forearm in his back. He's also not going to be a great post presence, not moreso than today. There were way more legit bigs roaming the paint, and he doesnt have the consistent turnaround/fadeaway game with the footwork that MJ had down there. So major production from the post is unlikely, and paths to the basket wont be unobstructed like today with the no hand rules.He'd probably average the same as he did in 2013, albeit on a a way lower percentage. Im thinking 27 on 48% to go with 7 rebounds/assists.

The 80s would have benefitted Lebron moreseo, the pace and run/gun style would benefit his athleticism and skillset to get out in transition.
So much wrong with this post

[catch24]

1993 MJ would STILL be the best player, but LeBron wouldn't be far behind IF AT ALL in the impact department.

I would say ~30/8/7 on 50% shooting.

[GIF REACTION]

It's like they think Handchecking is a one way street

Wrong

Lebron would be dropping the shoulder like he does today, except he would be doing it every chance he gets... Funny how you guys complain about him getting away with that, yet don't acknowledge how effective it would be in the 90's...

A 6-9 270 pound dude getting physically impeded by Chris Mullin? Yeah ****ing right son.

[Dragonyeuw]

So much wrong with this post
Great rebuttal.

[Dragonyeuw]

You should really move to realgm, bro. I dunno why are you are wasting actual intelligent opinions on this elk? But, I also don't understand why I am either. I guess we are both ****ing morons who are gluttonous for punishment.

Yeah tell me about it. Are there less agenda-ridden fanboy trolls over there?

[catch24]

It's like they think Handchecking is a one way street

Wrong

Lebron would be dropping the shoulder like he does today, except he would be doing it every chance he gets... Funny how you guys complain about him getting away with that, yet don't acknowledge how effective it would be in the 90's...

A 6-9 270 pound dude getting physically impeded by Chris Mullin? Yeah ****ing right son.

Exactly why the Open Court panel all thought LeBron would be an even BETTER player in the 90's. The guy's defense would be ****ing scary.

[GIF REACTION]

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/assets/4183099/Screen_Shot_2014-03-24_at_1.44.10_PM.png

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/assets/4183163/Screen_Shot_2014-03-24_at_8.20.26_PM.png

[GIF REACTION]

Lebron would be a more effective post player in the 90's... Or atleast just as good

1. He would be posting up smaller dudes (He would be blowing by Anthony Mason)

2. He is not a technical/Hakeem esque/footwork post player, he is a physical post player

3. A physical player in a more physical league?

[Dragonyeuw]

A 6-9 270 pound dude getting physically impeded by Chris Mullin? Yeah ****ing right son.

You cherry picked the right guy to make your point. Back in 93? What about Larry Johnson, Anthony Mason, Barkley, Rodman? What about Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing, Mourning,Oakley, Malone, Kevin Willis, Kemp, Coleman, Otis Thorpe, the Davis Brothers? You think those guys are going to roll over? Lebron would he succesful in that era, but dont act like the league wasnt way more physical than it is today, or that he's going to be defended by Chris Mullin types every night. Yes, he can be more physical, but you had legit bruiser types in that era that would push back against Lebron's physicality.

[GIF REACTION]

Lebron is not going to post up a center you moron. Same way he'd just blow by Larry Johnson or Anthony Mason

[Dragonyeuw]

Lebron is not going to post up a center you moron. Same way he'd just blow by Larry Johnson or Anthony Mason

I didnt say he would, dumbass. You mean like how he was blowing by Boris Diaw. Its not strictly about his positional matchups, its about the much greater paint resistance. You had much bigger, stronger guys protecting the rim that could actually be physical. Would Lebron adapt? Of course, he's 6'8 and 260 or whatever. But 30ppg on 55%? Nope. Two guys put up 30ppg in the 90's, MJ and Malone( Nique came close in 93). I dont see Lebron being the third. But 27-28 on 49%? Sure, those arent scrub numbers. Rebounds? He barely gets 7 in this era and you think he's ecplising that in 93? Nope. Assists? Meh who cares, I suppose if he ball dominates as much as he does today, mind you he doesnt have all the spot up 3point shooters feeding off his drive and kicks, so assist numbers dont necessarily inflate either.

Anyways, I dont know how I got sucked into wasting my time in this thread, but Im out.

[AirFederer]

25/6/6 on 49%

[Rocketswin2013]

GOAT perimeter defender.

[3ball]

He'll get a lot more assists and... Rebounds will pretty much be the same more or less...


Lebron's poor 1-on-1 and midrange efficiency prevents him from being as good in the 80's or 90's, when these were the primary options remaining without the 3-point shooting needed to make screen-roll/drive-and-kick mathematically worthwhile (driving and kicking for 2-pointers isn't worthwhile or preferable over other options).

Without teammates spreading the floor with threes to make drive-and-kick preferable and the force it is today, Lebron would have to score via 1-on-1 and mid-range like everyone else in the 80's - since his efficiency in very poor in these areas, we know for a fact he would be a lesser player back then.





23/7/5 on 55%


Fixed.. His rebounding would be down because the league was taller back then and far more physical.. And since he wouldn't be running screen-roll/drive-and-kick, he'd be less ball-dominant with less opportunities for assists... He's not used to passing without being ball-dominant like Bird and MJ were.
.

[GIF REACTION]

http://i.imgur.com/WPbmRsn.gif

[Rocketswin2013]

http://i.imgur.com/WPbmRsn.gif
:oldlol: The 90's never had clear-outs....

[Dragonyeuw]

Oh yes, this thread was just begging for 3ball. I'll spare my bandwidth from further suffering.

[GIF REACTION]

Holy shit imagine Lebron backing down the small ass wing defenders of the 90's

The doubles would be so predictable Lebron would get 10 assists easy

[3ball]

http://i.imgur.com/WPbmRsn.gif




Look at Ewing out of "armslength" but still in the paint!!!!!!.... In today's game, Ewing would have to vacate the paint and go stand above the foul line next to Rik Smits, which would make Ewing FURTHER away to help than he was back then, when he was legally paint-camping..

Also, in your gif - at least there was 1 defender with his feet in the paint and therefore within helping distance... Otoh, there are no help defenders in the paint against Lebron below - they're all on the far weakside, and therefore furthest away to help.


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2015/uAh_p8.gif

[Lebron23]

40/10/10

[3ball]

.
In the picture below, weakside floor-spreaders have drawn defenders away from the strongside.. If Noah doesn't leave #20 Mosgov and flood to the strongside, the strongside will only have 2 defenders on it.. This demonstrates how spacing necessitates flooding - defenders must flood BACK to the strongside (Noah), only because they were originally drawn away by floor-spreaders on the weakside (Mosgov)


http://i61.tinypic.com/2z7mnvm.png



..................Now which strongside scenario is harder to score on:


WITH weakside spacing - Being against Iggy with all 4 help defenders on weakside and furthest to help on strongside action:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-06-2015/uAh_p8.gif



WITHOUT weakside spacing - Being against Rodman with all 4 help defenders on strongside and closest to help on strongside action:


http://i.imgur.com/kAsDnlC.gif


Weakside spacing leaves the strongside with fewer defenders (1st GIF), which necessitates the flooding of defenders BACK TO the strongside - this is how strongside floods originated.

Otoh, without weakside spacing (seen in 2nd GIF), defenders just remained on the strongside and closest to help on strongside action.. With defenders staying on strongside, the strongside was already flooded with all 5 defenders (5-defender strongsides (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11128077&postcount=21), which is stark contrast from today's weakside spacing and resulting 1-defender strongsides (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=377570)).

[aj1987]

He doesnt have the isolation game to consistently break free from handchecking. Even today, he needs alot of picks to beat his man off the dribble at times, thats gonna be exasperated if his defender can put his hands on his hip or forearm in his back. He's also not going to be a great post presence, not moreso than today. There were way more legit bigs roaming the paint, and he doesnt have the consistent turnaround/fadeaway game with the footwork that MJ had down there. So major production from the post is unlikely, and paths to the basket wont be unobstructed like today with the no hand rules.

He'd probably average the same as he did in 2013, albeit on a a way lower percentage. Im thinking 27 on 48-49% to go with 7 rebounds/assists. His field goal % spiked from all the transition opportunities generated by the Heat, but outside those Heat years he's pretty much a 48-50% scorer.The 80s would have benefitted Lebron moreseo, the pace and run/gun style would benefit his athleticism and skillset to get out in transition. Alot of perimeter players shot 50% in that period, so he likely would be closer to the 53-55% mark in that era.
I say his FG% would drop by like ~5%. 26/9/8 on 50%-52%. More rebounds and assists due to the higher pace (96.8 in '93 and 92 in '13).

His defense would improve MASSIVELY though. I'd say he'll be a DPOY level defender due to his strength, athleticism, and IQ. The rules allowing physicality would help him immensely.

Also, he'd probably be able to adjust after a season of playing under the new rules.

[scandisk_]

25/6/6 on 49%

Those number of rebounds are way too low, A man of Brans size would get 7 rebounds minimum.

I say 26/8/8 on 50%

[riseagainst]

realistically and objectively probably something like 29-9-6, 55%.

[GIF REACTION]

realistically and objectively probably something like 29-9-6, 55%.
Only 6 assists?

He'd be getting easily 10 a game

[riseagainst]

Only 6 assists?

He'd be getting easily 10 a game

I was assuming he'd be playing in the triangle. He may get 7 a game, I can't see double digit assists.

[GIF REACTION]

it'd be almost guaranteed with how distinct and obvious defense was played then

[90sgoat]

He doesnt have the isolation game to consistently break free from handchecking. Even today, he needs alot of picks to beat his man off the dribble at times, thats gonna be exasperated if his defender can put his hands on his hip or forearm in his back. He's also not going to be a great post presence, not moreso than today. There were way more legit bigs roaming the paint, and he doesnt have the consistent turnaround/fadeaway game with the footwork that MJ had down there. So major production from the post is unlikely, and paths to the basket wont be unobstructed like today with the no hand rules.

He'd probably average the same as he did in 2013, albeit on a a way lower percentage. Im thinking 27 on 48-49% to go with 7 rebounds/assists. His field goal % spiked from all the transition opportunities generated by the Heat, but outside those Heat years he's pretty much a 48-50% scorer.The 80s would have benefitted Lebron moreseo, the pace and run/gun style would benefit his athleticism and skillset to get out in transition. Alot of perimeter players shot 50% in that period, so he likely would be closer to the 53-55% mark in that era.

You are too generous.

I realistically think he would get something like 18-8 on 45%.

[3ball]

Those number of rebounds are way too low, A man of Brans size would get 7 rebounds minimum.

I say 26/8/8 on 50%


He'd get less rebounds due to higher physicality.

And without today's 3-point shooting, he wouldn't be able to run screen-roll/drive-and-kick as often - people ignore me when I bring up this point - apparently, they think Lebron would just drive and kick for 2-pointers and it would have the same efficiency as driving and kicking for 3-pointers.

But it wouldn't - the lack of 3-point shooting and resulting lower efficiency of drive-and-kicking for 2-pointers is what made post play preferable to screen-roll/drive-and-kick back then.. Without screen-roll promoting the kind of assist-friendly, ball-dominant style he employs today, Lebron would have less assist opportunities.. Unlike Bird and Jordan, Lebron isn't used to getting assists without being ball-dominant..

Not only would he have less assist opportunities without his drive-and-kick, but he would also have to score via post, midrange and isolation like all other scorers back then, and we know for a FACT that his efficiency is piss-poor in all these areas.. So he'd average something like 23/6/5 on 45% shooting - higher physicality and no drive-and-kick means less rebounds, points, assists, and efficiency.. Don't underestimate the impact of not having drive-and-kick.. :confusedshrug:

[Dragonyeuw]

I say his FG% would drop by like ~5%. 26/9/8 on 50%-52%. More rebounds and assists due to the higher pace (96.8 in '93 and 92 in '13).



At the risk of sounding like I'm parroting 3ball, I think pace and the nature of the era cancel each other to a degree, though it's impossible to quantity how much.

Lebron gets a lot of 'drive and kick to 3point shooters' assists, considering that the 3 wasn't nearly as utilized 22 years ago would logically impact how he gets alot of assists. Being fair, I say he adapts fine assist-wise given that passing ability is kind of exempt from the era argument, and some of those 'drive and kicks' may morph into 'drive and dish' to the larger selection of quality bigmen in the 90's.

Let's put him in Cleveland for example in 1993, let's say Daugherty and Price are there as well. He's got both an interior target as well as Price (and Ehlo) as shooters. But then, Price becomes a spot-up shooter if they employ Lebron-ball( not that this is bad, Price was one hell of a shooter, but that's not maximizing all his strengths). The question is, depending on team makeup, will he still employ the top of the key, ball-dominant style? Or will he play with a traditional PG where he has to adapt to being more off-ball? All these nuances can swing the stats pendulum, if only slightly.

Rebound-wise, alot of trees in the paint back then and I don't think he's even as good as rebounder in today's smaller league as he should be. Grant Hill, for example, was a better rebounder while giving up 50 pounds and playing in that era of dominant bigs.

[Indian guy]

But then, Price becomes a spot-up shooter if they employ Lebron-ball

You mean, like how Wade and Irving became spot-up shooters alongside LeBron? :rolleyes:. We have 5 years of solid proof that ball-dominant guards have no issue excelling alongside LeBron. Nobody's turning into a "spot-up shooter". "LeBron ball" is only employed when he's playing with sub-par talent or a very unimaginative offensive coach. Prior to the 2015 playoffs(no Love/Kyrie), the last time we saw it was the 2010 NBA season.


Rebound-wise, alot of trees in the paint back then

LeBron always managed to average 7-8 rpg in Cleveland while playing with very strong rebounding front courts. No reason why he wouldn't be able to at least duplicate that in a faster-paced league that employs the 3-ball less, so he's going to be closer to the basket. Everybody averaged more rpg back in the day, so why the heck would LeBron's decrease?

[Dragonyeuw]

1)You mean, like how Wade and Irving became spot-up shooters alongside LeBron? :rolleyes:. We have 5 years of solid proof that ball-dominant guards have no issue excelling alongside LeBron. Nobody's turning into a "spot-up shooter". "LeBron ball" is only employed when he's playing with sub-par talent or a very unimaginative offensive coach. Prior to the 2015 playoffs(no Love/Kyrie), the last time we saw it was the 2010 NBA season.



2)LeBron always managed to average 7-8 rpg in Cleveland while playing with very strong rebounding front courts. No reason why he wouldn't be able to at least duplicate that in a faster-paced league that employs the 3-ball less, so he's going to be closer to the basket. Everybody averaged more rpg back in the day, so why the heck would LeBron's decrease?

1) But we really have no idea how Lebron and Price would be utilized back in 1993. For one, Wade's not a good enough shooter to take that role, so naming him is pointless. You have a point about Kyrie, but one circumstance of a star 'shooting' PG not being relegated to a spot-up role doesn't mean Price wouldn't take that role 20 years ago. It doesn't mean he would either, but it can't be stated with any degree of authority one way or the other. This is purely speculation.

2) I made no argument that his rebounds would decrease. I just don't think they'll increase. In fact, several posts before the one you jumped on, I said his stats would probably be the same minus a lower FG%, more in line with his pre Miami days.

[j3lademaster]

Lebron would be dropping the shoulder like he does today, except he would be doing it every chance he gets... How is that different than from today?


A 6-9 270 pound dude getting physically impeded by Chris Mullin? Yeah ****ing right son.Chris Mullin wasn't exactly the pinnacle of man to man perimeter D, a lot of guys would and did score on him. He'll be defended by more Anthony Masons and Larry Johnsons. Mullin would be an easier night, and Pippen/ MJ would be a tough night. Nance would definitely give Lebron trouble as well.

[Rocketswin2013]

How much trouble is LeBron giving the league on the perimeter while being able to put his hands on guys? He nearly won DPOY's in a weak era with his hands behind his back, no?


He locked down D-Rose with length and recovery ability. He shut a peak Big Al down in 2013 by himself.


You give this guy the ability to abuse hand-check rules :eek:

[90sgoat]

How much trouble is LeBron giving the league on the perimeter while being able to put his hands on guys? He nearly won DPOY's in a weak era with his hands behind his back, no?


He locked down D-Rose with length and recovery ability. He shut a peak Big Al down in 2013 by himself.


You give this guy the ability to abuse hand-check rules :eek:

Lebron could be a very good defender in the 90s. In fact had he played in the 90s he would have to be a very good defender, because he will be a much less effective offensive player.

As I say, he'd be close to a 20-10 power forward who played good defense or alternatively a big better Anthony Mason small forward, but there's no way he hits 25ppg in the 90s.

[Dragonyeuw]

Chris Mullin wasn't exactly the pinnacle of man to man perimeter D, a lot of guys would and did score on him. He'll be defended by more Anthony Masons and Larry Johnsons. Mullin would be an easier night, and Pippen/ MJ would be a tough night. Nance would definitely give Lebron trouble as well.

As would Rodman, but choosing Chris Mullin as if he is representative of 90s perimeter defenders wasnt by accident. Its like those who use Craig Ehlo to say MJ was only defended by skinny white guys while ignoring Rodman, Cooper, Dumars, Payton, Moncrief etc etc.

[Indian guy]

It doesn't mean he would either, but it can't be stated with any degree of authority one way or the other. This is purely speculation.

Dude, you are the one who speculated first and said it with authority - that "LeBron ball" would relegate Price to spot-up shooter. My rebuttal is, in LeBron's 12 year career, he has played with 3 star-level guards - 'Mo Williams, Wade and Irving. 2 of them happened to be excellent shooters. And 2 of them were ball-dominant. Yet, in all 3 cases, not only did they manage to excel, but none of 'em were reduced to "spot up" status. Thus, there's little merit to what you said. And we don't need to speculate on how LeBron/Price would be used 22 years ago. We can just look at LeBron's history with star-guards and conclude that Price would do just fine.

[ShawkFactory]

At the risk of sounding like I'm parroting 3ball, I think pace and the nature of the era cancel each other to a degree, though it's impossible to quantity how much.

Lebron gets a lot of 'drive and kick to 3point shooters' assists, considering that the 3 wasn't nearly as utilized 22 years ago would logically impact how he gets alot of assists. Being fair, I say he adapts fine assist-wise given that passing ability is kind of exempt from the era argument, and some of those 'drive and kicks' may morph into 'drive and dish' to the larger selection of quality bigmen in the 90's.

Let's put him in Cleveland for example in 1993, let's say Daugherty and Price are there as well. He's got both an interior target as well as Price (and Ehlo) as shooters. But then, Price becomes a spot-up shooter if they employ Lebron-ball( not that this is bad, Price was one hell of a shooter, but that's not maximizing all his strengths). The question is, depending on team makeup, will he still employ the top of the key, ball-dominant style? Or will he play with a traditional PG where he has to adapt to being more off-ball? All these nuances can swing the stats pendulum, if only slightly.

Rebound-wise, alot of trees in the paint back then and I don't think he's even as good as rebounder in today's smaller league as he should be. Grant Hill, for example, was a better rebounder while giving up 50 pounds and playing in that era of dominant bigs.
This.

I hate when people take Lebron and the way he plays right now in this league and try to say he'd be less effective at a time when other skills were more paramount.

What if Lebron grew up in a time of physicality and post game instead of AAU and AND1? My guess is that he would have an wicked post game.

A player with Lebron's gifts and athletic ability is going to develop the skills necessary to dominate in any era

[90sgoat]

This.

I hate when people take Lebron and the way he plays right now in this league and try to say he'd be less effective at a time when other skills were more paramount.

What if Lebron grew up in a time of physicality and post game instead of AAU and AND1? My guess is that he would have an wicked post game.

A player with Lebron's gifts and athletic ability is going to develop the skills necessary to dominate in any era

Lebron is too heavy, too heavy feet to be a truly good post player.

The average 90s power forward was not some beast with Hakeem like moves. Think David West, ability to hit a short hook and open mid range shots. Horace Grant in other words.

Lebron simply does not have the great coordination needed to be a good post player. Look at a big guy like Karl Malone being able to smoothly drain mid range jumpers, something Lebron still can't, even after being forced to work on it for years.

Anthony Mason with better outside shooting and better passing is his 90s ceiling.

[Rocketswin2013]

So I guess it's settled.

Pippen with vastly superior FT shooting, finishing ability, speed, quickness, off-ball shooting and strength.

Pippen was a 22/8/6 guy on 56 TS%.

I would project LeBron as 26/7/7 on 62 TS% with Duncan-level defensive impact.

Essentially the best player in the 90's.

[ShawkFactory]

Lebron is too heavy, too heavy feet to be a truly good post player.

The average 90s power forward was not some beast with Hakeem like moves. Think David West, ability to hit a short hook and open mid range shots. Horace Grant in other words.

Lebron simply does not have the great coordination needed to be a good post player. Look at a big guy like Karl Malone being able to smoothly drain mid range jumpers, something Lebron still can't, even after being forced to work on it for years.

Anthony Mason with better outside shooting and better passing is his 90s ceiling.
:rolleyes:

[scandisk_]

So I guess it's settled.

Pippen with vastly superior FT shooting, finishing ability, speed, quickness, off-ball shooting and strength.

Pippen was a 22/8/6 guy on 56 TS%.

I would project LeBron as 26/7/7 on 62 TS% with Duncan-level defensive impact.

Essentially the best player in the 90's.

4th best player, behind

1. MJ
2. Dream
3. Shaq
4. Malone - Chuck - Bran

[Dragonyeuw]

Dude, you are the one who speculated first and said it with authority - that "LeBron ball" would relegate Price to spot-up shooter. My rebuttal is, in LeBron's 12 year career, he has played with 3 star-level guards - 'Mo Williams, Wade and Irving. 2 of them happened to be excellent shooters. And 2 of them were ball-dominant. Yet, in all 3 cases, not only did they manage to excel, but none of 'em were reduced to "spot up" status. Thus, proving your entire statement baseless. We don't need to speculate on how LeBron/Price would be used 22 years ago. We can just look at LeBron's history with star-guards and conclude that Price would do just fine.

How the hell did I say 'Lebron-ball' with authority, or did I need to prefix it with 'in my humble opinion'? Because you seem to be the one that speaks with an air of 'authority' and condensation in many of your posts where Lebron is the topic.

Mo Williams wasn't a star level guard. He's one of those glorified role players who, to Lebron's credit, managed to look better than he really was, as evidence by his under-performance in the playoffs and irrelevance after he left Cleveland. He's the classic example of a shooter whose game was enhanced from all the attention Lebron garnered.

Also, when I say spot-up shooter, as someone playing offball who would benefit playing off-Lebron, IF Price actually took on such a role I wasn't suggesting he wouldn't do fine. So you're arguing a point I never made. Price in that role was a deadly enough shooter to put up similar offensive numbers to what he did in 93, albeit without as much ballhandling duties. But at the end of the day, speculation debates amount to pissing in the wind and pointless, like the majority of 'what ifs' that people post here on a daily. You're entitled to your view and vice versa, and I'm not expending more time pissing up a tree here.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Not sure where this idea of Lebron thriving under physical contact came from. Or the idea that he'd be able to stiff arm and barrel into defenders back then like he does today and not get called for charges every time.

I'd predict 27-29 pts/7-8 reb/7 ast/48-50% FG/56-58% TS for 2013 Lebron in 1993. Third best player in the league that year behind Jordan and Hakeem, right alongside Barkley.

[ArbitraryWater]

Since LeBron would thrive with the physicality, imagine how much more he could do defensively :eek:

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/7-13-2015/kZeK3Z.gif


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/4-07-2015/NwamL4.gif


I'd predict 27-29 pts/7-8 reb/7 ast/48-50% FG/56-58% TS for 2013 Lebron in 1993. Third best player in the league that year behind Jordan and Hakeem, right alongside Barkley.



I think you're overrating his FG%.. I don't see how he shoots 50%.. The lack of 3-point shooting and resulting packed paints were too real - when there's 8 guys standing in the paint (1st gif), it's not possible for a penetrator to get in there.. All scorers had to pull-up for more midrange back then.. And it doesn't have to be 8 guys, it could be just 2-3 guys or a PF clogging the lane, since they weren't spacing the floor like today's stretch 4's (see Hot Rod in 2nd gif).

So I'm pretty sure that congested paints would force more low efficiency mid-range pull-ups, just like it did for Jordan and everyone else... Also, there's the reality that Lebron's proportion of screen-roll/drive-and-kick offense would be smaller without the same elite 3-point shooting to kick the ball to that makes drive-and-kick preferable over other options in today's game.. With less screen-roll/drive-and-kick, he has to rely more on post, midrange, and isolations like everyone else - of course, these are all areas where his efficiency is average to bad.

[catch24]

Not sure where this idea of Lebron thriving under physical contact came from. Or the idea that he'd be able to stiff arm and barrel into defenders back then like he does today and not get called for charges every time.

I'd predict 27-29 pts/7-8 reb/7 ast/48-50% FG/56-58% TS for 2013 Lebron in 1993. Third best player in the league that year behind Jordan and Hakeem, right alongside Barkley.

2013 LeBron was a DPOY level defender, and now you're allowing him to handhceck and play physical in 1993?

Skill-wise dude might NOT be as good as Jordan, but his impact would be right there. LeBron would be a nightmare on both ends of the court.

[OldSchoolBBall]

2013 LeBron was a DPOY level defender, and now you're allowing him to handhceck and play physical in 1993?

Skill-wise dude might NOT be as good as Jordan, but his impact would be right there. LeBron would be a nightmare on both ends of the court.

Agreed, but that still doesn't make him better than Jordan or Hakeem that year.

[catch24]

Agreed, but that still doesn't make him better than Jordan or Hakeem that year.

LeBron would've had better offense than Hakeem, and Hakeem would have better defense.

As players, they would be a wash after Jordan.

The three all belong in the same tier, tbh

[OldSchoolBBall]

LeBron would've had better offense than Hakeem, and Hakeem would have better defense.

As players, they would be a wash after Jordan.

The three all belong in the same tier, tbh

Hakeem's defensive edge outweighs Lebron's offensive edge imo.

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/9-17-2015/dzzsgE.gif


Skill-wise dude might NOT be as good as Jordan, but his impact would be right there.



The skill deficit you allude to would negatively impact Lebron's ability to play the different brand of basketball prevalent back then.

Screen-roll/drive-and-kick would be a smaller portion of his offense without the same caliber 3-point shooters that makes today's drive-and-kick more efficient than other options.. Instead, Lebron's scoring profile would look like virtually every other scorer back then - he'd rely more on post, midrange and isolations, which are his average to bad efficiency areas.

Furthermore, there was less 3-point shooting back then to draw defenders out of the paint, so the paint was more congested.. This forced all scorers to pull-up from midrange more often (see gif above).. Again, midrange is a low efficiency area for him.. Since Lebron would have to rely on low efficiency areas in 1993, his efficiency would be worse back then, which would drag down his scoring.
.

[Paul George 24]

:wtf:
Lebron would be a more effective post player in the 90's... Or atleast just as good

1. He would be posting up smaller dudes (He would be blowing by Anthony Mason)

2. He is not a technical/Hakeem esque/footwork post player, he is a physical post player


90
3. A physical player in a more physical league?

90s era would not allow leflop travel like that,plus no defensive 3seconds anymore ,he won't scores easy as he is not

20ppg on 40 fg%

[Paul George 24]

2013 LeBron was a DPOY level defender, and now you're allowing him to handhceck and play physical in 1993?

Skill-wise dude might NOT be as good as Jordan, but his impact would be right there. LeBron would be a nightmare on both ends of the court.

no way ,he is a poor man defender with a slow laterall speed

[Paul George 24]

How much trouble is LeBron giving the league on the perimeter while being able to put his hands on guys? He nearly won DPOY's in a weak era with his hands behind his back, no?


He locked down D-Rose with length and recovery ability. He shut a peak Big Al down in 2013 by himself.


You give this guy the ability to abuse hand-check rules :eek:

he never lock down rose
,it's wade and him quick double team defended rose

[Paul George 24]

You mean, like how Wade and Irving became spot-up shooters alongside LeBron? :rolleyes:. We have 5 years of solid proof that ball-dominant guards have no issue excelling alongside LeBron. Nobody's turning into a "spot-up shooter". "LeBron ball" is only employed when he's playing with sub-par talent or a very unimaginative offensive coach. Prior to the 2015 playoffs(no Love/Kyrie), the last time we saw it was the 2010 NBA season.



LeBron always managed to average 7-8 rpg in Cleveland while playing with very strong rebounding front courts. No reason why he wouldn't be able to at least duplicate that in a faster-paced league that employs the 3-ball less, so he's going to be closer to the basket. Everybody averaged more rpg back in the day, so why the heck would LeBron's decrease?


lebron only made stars player around him get worse,larry hudges jammison,wade,bosh,big Z,love,Shaq.etc

[3ball]

Lebron only made star players around him worse, larry hughes jamison, wadde, bosh, big Z, love, Shaq, etc.


True

[3ball]

Lebron achieves his stats by reducing the stats of teammates - this is statistical fact.

[3ball]

We have 5 years of solid proof that ball-dominant guards have no issue excelling alongside LeBron.



You're factually incorrect - Lebron reduces the PPG and APG of teammates - here's APG:


Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)


Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), .8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)


Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'): 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)
Irving apg and assist % with... Lebron (2015):... 5.2, 25.0%


Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN: 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:. 2.2, 10.7%


Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron: 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron: 4.1, 20.1%


Source: basketball-reference.com


As you can see, Lebron's presence significantly reduces the APG and assist % of teammates, while their assisted rate increases - this proves Lebron turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers, thus preventing the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that the Mavs, Spurs, Warriors, and 90's Bulls used (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s), where all 5 guys share the playmaking duties - since Lebron prevents the best brand of basketball, various equal or less-talented teams have pulled upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014).

Ultimately, Lebron's stats lack integrity because he accumulates them at the expense of teammates.. His stat accumulation is also helped by employing a stat-friendly, easily-solvable, playground style, rather than trying to win.. His stat-friendly style is far less impressive than the superior, nuanced skill that MJ needed to achieve stats within an equal-opportunity offense that could actually win.

[scandisk_]

copy.paste.repost.3ball

pathetic :facepalm

[raprap]

True
Lmao you just agreed with a retard

[3ball]

copy.paste.repost.3ball

pathetic :facepalm
You have to admit - it's remarkable how Lebron craters the APG and sometimes PPG of his teammates..

Anyway, redirecting - here's the real issue about this thread - Lebron can't shoot from midrange, which he would HAVE to do in the 80's/90's to be a 28-30 ppg scorer.

With less than half the 3-point production that today's game uses to open up the lane, 1993 Lebron would be forced to pull-up for more midrange jumpshots, like all aggressive scorers back then.. The lack of 3-pointers would also reduce the efficiency of screen-roll/drive-and-kick - he simply wouldn't be using screen-roll as much as he does in today's game, and would again be forced to use midrange, as well as post and isolation, all areas he's average to bad in.

[GIF REACTION]

Incorrect

2013 Lebron shot .447 from 16+ ft and .406 from 3

[plowking]

Agreed, but that still doesn't make him better than Jordan or Hakeem that year.

Crock of shit. :oldlol:

The best Lebron is just as good as best Jordan.

The 5 years stretch of 09-13 Bron is just as good as Jordan's 89-93 stretch.

28/8/7 on 52% shooting vs 32/7/6 on 52% shooting.

Bron with a 30.4 PER during that time and 61% TS...
MJ with a 30.3 PER during that time and a 59% TS...

You acting as if he wouldn't be either the best or second best player in the league. :oldlol:

[3ball]

Incorrect

2013 Lebron shot .447 from 16+ ft and .406 from 3
For Lebron's career, he's 38.8% from the 16-23 foot range, which is below average, and he's 35.8% from 10-16 feet, which is far below-average.

In 2013, he actually began a 2-year campaign to inflate his efficiency by only attempting 17 shots per game.. This backfired in the 2014 Finals, when his passivity was run out of the gym.

Btw, 44.7% isn't impressive.. Magic shot 56% from midrange in the 1985 Finals vs. Boston - ask ShaqisGoat or PHILA - one of them has the data.. We know MJ shot 52% from midrange in 1997, per nba.com's stats..

Here's the factual reality - for Lebron to be an elite scorer like 27+ppg in the 80's or 1993, he'd need ELITE midrange or post game, like ALL the leading scorers back then:


Leading Scorers in 1986:

SF Dominique 30.3
SF Dantley 29.8
SF English 29.8
SF Bird 25.8
SF Short 25.5
SF Vandeweghe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0ZCbZq8wWg) 24.8


Leading Scorers in 1987:

SG Michael Jordan 37.1
SF Dominique 29.8
SF Alex English 28.6
SF Larry Bird 28.1
SF Vandeweghe 26.9
PF Kevin McHale 26.1
SF Mark Aguirre 25.7
SG Dale Ellis 24.9


Leading Scorers 1993:

SG Michael Jordan 32.6
SF Dominique 29.9
PF Karl Malone 27.0
C. Hakeem Olajuwon 26.1
SG Chris Mullin 25.9
PF Charles Barkley 25.6
C. Patrick Ewing 24.2
SG Joe Dumars 23.5
C. Shaquille O'Neal 23.4
C. David Robinson 23.4
PF Danny Manning 22.8
SG Drazen Petrovic 22.3
PF Larry Johnson 22.1


Larry Johnson is the first guy listed here that didn't have an elite mid-range and/or post game.. :confusedshrug:

[GIF REACTION]

Well duh defenses are better today

[Angel Face]

23 - 25 ppg on about 47 - 49% shooting. His lack of elite isolation game and post game will hurt him. His physical attributes "might" certainly benefit him due to playing in a more physical era, "BUT" based on what he's showing today, it will be tough for him to handle the physicality of that era. LeBron doesn't like it when the game gets physical. He'll just flop his way out of it which doesn't work well in the old school ball. Won't end well for the Queen. Would get body bagged by the thugs of New York Knicks.

[Megabox!]

23 - 25 ppg on about 47 - 49% shooting. His lack of elite isolation game and post game will hurt him. His physical attributes "might" certainly benefit him due to playing in a more physical era, "BUT" based on what he's showing today, it will be tough for him to handle the physicality of that era. LeBron doesn't like it when the game gets physical. He'll just flop his way out of it which doesn't work well in the old school ball. Won't end well for the Queen. Would get body bagged by the thugs of New York Knicks.
Dumbest post of the week nominee.

[3ball]

The best Lebron is just as good as best Jordan.

The 5 years stretch of 09-13 Bron is just as good as Jordan's 89-93 stretch.



Playoffs Per 100 Possession:

JORDAN 89'-93' (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1989-1993-sum:playoffs_per_poss): 44.2 pts.. 8.6 reb... 8.8 ast.. 3.0 stl.. 50.3 fg.. 58.1 ts.. 120 ORtg.. 30.0 PER
LEBRON 09'-13' (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2009-2013-sum:playoffs_per_poss): 36.5 pts. 11.5 reb.. 8.3 ast.. 2.3 stl.. 49.3 fg.. 58.7 ts.. 118 ORtg.. 29.1 PER


Per Game in Finals:

JORDAN 91'-93': 36.3 ppg.. 6.6 rpg.. 7.9 apg.. 2.0 spg.. 0.76 bpg.. 52.6 fg.. 40.7% 3 pt
LEBRON 11'-14': 24.1 ppg.. 8.8 rpg.. 6.4 apg.. 1.8 spg.. 0.55 bpg.. 46.3 fg.. 31.2% 3 pt

[GIF REACTION]

Terrible defenses though so Lebron wins

[3ball]

Terrible defenses though so Lebron wins
:roll:

Look at the Finals stats - 50% more scoring for MJ and 1.5 more assists, 8% better fg.

[Bless Mathews]

:roll:

Look at the Finals stats - 50% more scoring for MJ and 1.5 more assists, 8% better fg.


No sense arguing with someone that thinks Colin kaepernick is a top 5 qb.

They obviously don't know sports.


Mj > Bron and it's not even close.

[Bless Mathews]

23 - 25 ppg on about 47 - 49% shooting. His lack of elite isolation game and post game will hurt him. His physical attributes "might" certainly benefit him due to playing in a more physical era, "BUT" based on what he's showing today, it will be tough for him to handle the physicality of that era. LeBron doesn't like it when the game gets physical. He'll just flop his way out of it which doesn't work well in the old school ball. Won't end well for the Queen. Would get body bagged by the thugs of New York Knicks.

Poast of the week nominee.

:applause:

[3ball]

Terrible OFFENSE



Fixed.. We saw Boris Diaw forced Lebron into midrange and forearm push-offs - this kind of mechanical, stone-hands touch wasn't good enough to be a 27+ ppg scorer in the 80's or 90's:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-17-2015/NtLU8z.gif


That's ugly.. His touch is a 1 out of 10 compared to say, Bob McAdoo.

[Bless Mathews]

We saw Boris Diaw forced Lebron into midrange and forearm push-offs - this kind of mechanical, stone-hands touch wasn't good enough to be a 27+ ppg scorer in the 80's or 90's:


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-17-2015/NtLU8z.gif

Damn. Bron Bron is just not fOnky at all.

About as graceful as 6 foot tall Scandinavia bitch trying to be sexy in bed.

[3ball]

http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-17-2015/2T4am1.gif


As the gif shows, today's 3-point shooting/spacing and hand-check ban makes penetration an automatic, built-in component of the game - look how airy and contact-free Parker's drive into the lane is - it looks more like a performance routine of some sort than a basketball drive.

However, 1993 had less than half the 3-point production that today's game uses to open up the lane.. The paint congestion would force Lebron to pull-up for more midrange jumpshots, like everyone else back then.. The lack of 3-point-shooting personnel would also reduce the efficiency of screen-roll/drive-and-kick - he simply would NOT be using screen-roll as much as he does in today's game.. He'd be forced to use midrange, post and isolation - all areas he's average to bad in..

[3ball]

1981 - Illegal Defense Guidelines put in place to increase scoring and open up the paint

Passage from Bill Simmons' (Globally known NBA analyst, well respected publically) book


In 2005, paint-camping and zone was BANNED inside the 16 x 19 foot painted area - inside the paint, defenders must stay within "armslength" (about 3 feet), which is the exact opposite of a zone.

"Armslength" is actually the strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder.. yet this strict policy governs today's defenders in the most important area of the floor: the paint.





Offenses have had to adjust to the modern, strong side flooding defenses


Remember - the defensive 3 seconds rule banned paint-camping... Paint-camping is a superior defensive tactic to today's flooding.. Furthermore, due to defensive 3 seconds, defenders must shade/flood to OUTSIDE the paint, leaving the paint unprotected and allowing quick wings to beat defenders to the open paint (as opposed to defenders already being in the paint waiting on penetrators, like previous eras).

Finally, today's 3-point shooting and the resulting spacing negates the current defensive schemes.. It's all nice and good that defenders are flooding, but the spacing makes them help from further away - spacing makes defenders help from further away - that's the definition of spacing... The further distance of today's help defenders isn't disputable - it's physics... Spacing affords today's players more time and room to operate than ever before.





Elite scorer numbers are down across the board


This is factually incorrect - there were only two 30-point scorers in the 90's - MJ six times and Malone once... In the 2000's there have been many 30 point scorers.. Today's much higher number of 30-point scorers is due to increaseed 3-point shooting which has spread the floor, hand-check ban, and defensive 3 seconds.

Remember, Wade and Westbrook led league in scoring in 2009 and 2015 with a worse 3-point shot and far worse mid-range shot than MJ.. Nor could they double-pump with ease from the FT line (http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-03-2015/64Ba72.gif) like MJ.. And let's compare the defenses they faced:

PREVIOUS ERA: paint-camping... no-spacing... hand-checking
TODAY'S ERA:..... shading.......... spacing.. ..no hand-checking


I guess that's why MJ was able to average 37 PPG on 59% TS despite shooting all 2-pointers amidst every-possession double-teams (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s)... Only the goat has it like that (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210).

[GIF REACTION]

1981 - Illegal Defense Guidelines put in place to increase scoring and open up the paint
Passage from Bill Simmons' (Globally known NBA analyst, well respected publically) book
[QUOTE]The new wave of coaches made defenses sophisticated enough by 1981 that [B][COLOR="Red"]the league created an

[OldSchoolBBall]

No idea how anyone can think that Lebron is equal to - much less better than - Jordan. It's pretty clear that he's not. I think his 2-3 best seasons ('09, '13 etc.) may COMPARE to '88 or '89 Jordan, but '90-'93 Jordan was better than Lebron has ever been by a decent margin. Not a large gap, but definitely clear.

[3ball]

Illegal Defense Rules


2a. Weak side defenders may come in the pro lane (16’), but not in the college lane (12’) for more than three seconds.



As the bolded red shows, previous era defenders could remain INDEFINITELY in the "pro" lane, or the outer partition of the paint - today's defenders can't do that - they have a max of 3 seconds.

For the inner part of the paint (college lane), weakside defenders can stay for up to 3 seconds, just like today's defenders.





2b. Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player adjacent to paint area).

2b. When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area with no time limitations. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area.


Rule 2b is a legal paint-camping provision.

As you can see, defenders were allowed to stay in the paint "with no time limitation" if their man was in the paint already, or "adjacent" to the paint - "adjacent" is defined as when the offensive player is within 3 feet of either side of the paint, as denoted by hash marks on the baseline.. The hash marks are the only thing refs had to eyeball if an offensive player was "adjacent"/within 3 feet, or further than 3 feet/in violation, which is why defenders often camped in the paint while their man was all the way at the 3-point line (no enforcement).

The criteria needed to paint-camp (a defender's man being in the paint or within 3 feet of either side) was always fulfilled in previous eras due to the lack of 3-point shooting and spacing - coaches foolishly ran offenses that didn't shoot threes and positioned players close to the rim, which activated this legal-paint camping provision of Rule 2b.. The full Illegal Defense Guidelines from the NBA rule book are here (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html), also shown at realgm here (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=28840140&sid=f37d422abcb4fb3198dba014bc15f361#p28840140).





2c. Player without ball may not be double-teamed from weak side.


Rule 2c is the same thing as today's flooding - but flooding isn't an advantage for today's game.. Today's 3-pointers/spacing and the resulting further distance of help defenders makes offensive players more dangerous when they catch the ball, which necessitates extra tactics so the ballhandler isn't as secluded by the spacing - but the flooding tactic merely makes the concentration of defenders equivalent to an un-spaced court where help defenders were already in closer proximity.

Lack of spacing and closer proximity of help defenders made previous eras better-equipped to handle a player that has the ball without needing risky gambles like flooding, where big men come away from the rim to flood in a mismatch outside the paint.. Instead, the lack of 3-point shooting kept offensive players closer to the paint, which allowed defenders to paint-camp when their man was in the paint or within 3 feet of either side (see Rule 2b above).. Paint-camping is a more equitable way to defend the entire court, without necessitating the extra rotations and leaving guys wide open that flooding requires.





2d. Offensive player above foul line and inside circle must be played by defender inside dotted line (upper part of the paint).


This allows defenders to stand in the upper part of the paint above the dotted line INDEFNITELY when their man is at college 3-point distance (the tip of the circle).

Otoh, today's defenders can NEVER stay in the paint for longer than 3 seconds unless they're within "armslength".. But being on the dotted line in the paint is way out of armslength of the college 3-point line (tip of circle).

By virtue of being able to stay in the paint indefinitely, previous era defenders have more flexibility in this spot (when a defender's man is at the top of the circle).





2e. If offensive player is above the top of the circle, defender must come to a position above foul line. (within 2.9 seconds)


This is the same as today - when an offensive player is above the tip of circle, his defender can't sag into the paint for more than 3 seconds.. Rule 2e gives the defender 3 seconds, just like today's rule.

The full Illegal Defense Guidelines from the NBA rule book found here (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html), also shown at realgm here (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=28840140&sid=f37d422abcb4fb3198dba014bc15f361#p28840140)





Today's game has shooting-enforced spacing, not rule-enforced spacing


Today's game has rule-enforced spacing in the paint ("armslength").... and spacing-enforced spacing outside paint via 3-pointers.

Otoh, previous eras didn't have spacing-enforced spacing (no 3's).

They didn't have material rules-enforced spacing either - defenders could paint-camp and they could sag off 3-point shooters to the edge of the paint just like today's defenders.





Elite scorer numbers are down across the board


False - there were only two 30-point scorers in the entire 90's - MJ did it 6 times and Karl Malone once - that's only 2 guys.. But in the 2000's there have been many 30-point scorers.. It's like night and day.

Furthermore, there are only 2 ball-dominators never even broke 25 ppg in the 90's!!!... The game just wasn't set up for ball-dominators back then like it is now.. Otoh, the no spacing and hand-checking of previous eras are the 2 things least conducive to penetration.





ball movement and clever schemes are required for these elite scorers to hit the box score.


False again - over 50% of Harden and Lebron's offense comes from isolations and screen-roll.. It was 60% for Lebron in the playoffs.. 50-60% is standard for point guards and ball-dominators like Harden, Lebron, various other wings, and virtually all PG's.. So offenses aren't more "clever" - it's just one drive-and-kick after another.

One reason teams can use drive-and-kick so easily is because zone is only allowed OUTSIDE the paint.. Inside the 16 x 19 ft paint, defenders must stay within "armslength" (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html) (about 3 feet) to remain in the paint, which is the opposite of a zone and the strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder.. Yet this strict no-paint-camping, no-zone policy is what governs the most important area of the floor: the paint.





George Karl on how the rule changes have made post ups inefficient


George Karl is wrong..

It's a mathematical fact that without 3-pointers, the efficiency of screen rolls/drive-and-kick plummets and becomes not worthwhile compared to post-ups.. This proves that the decline in post-ups is due to higher efficiency drive-and-kick made possible by 3-pointers, not defensive tactics.. In the absence of 3-pointers, no amount of defensive strategy could prevent post-ups from supplanting drive-and-kick.

Since post-ups, mid-range, off-ball and isolations were the only things left in the 80's without the 3-pointers needed to make drive-and-kick back worthwhile, we can say with certainty that Lebron would be half the player back then - he's simply not elite in any of these areas.





2001 - Removal of Illegal Defense Guidelines

Purpose: To encourage ball movement and team play through giving defenses more freedom to defend, particularly help defense from the weak side, which was extremely restricted from 1981-2001 with the Illegal defense guideline in place


The NBA said their rule changes were meant to create superior spacing, which put ALL defenders a further distance away from helping, especially weakside help defenders.

Specifically, the NBA said they wanted to increase drive-and-kick to encourage 3's and make spacing better, so they robbed the defense of their hands (literally) and forced them to keep the paint clear (defensive 3 seconds) to "open up the game".. Here the NBA's official statements on the rule changes:

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/04/09/stujackson/index.html





You simply cannot compare stats across eras without mentioning the rule changes


PREVIOUS ERA: paint-camping... no-spacing... hand-checking
TODAY'S ERA:..... shading.......... spacing.. ..no hand-checking


Remember, Wade and Westbrook led league in scoring in 2009 and 2015 with a worse 3-point shot and far worse mid-range shot than MJ.. Nor could they double-pump with ease from the FT line (http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-03-2015/64Ba72.gif) like MJ.. And let's compare the defenses they faced:

I guess that's why MJ was able to average 37 PPG on 59% TS despite shooting all 2-pointers amidst every-possession double-teams (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s)... Only the goat has it like that (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210).
.

[scandisk_]

GIF REACTION = 3ball

:applause: