Question on scouting tools/videos for wing players and forwards:

[CavaliersFTW]

Okay guys, I've made scouting tools on centers and broken up their games into the major components of how I see/understand how they played.

For example my latest video was about Walt Bellamy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYCnrkv_GL8

And it is broken up as follows:

Part 1: Introduction and Physical Tools
Part 2: Defense
Part 3: Transition Game
Part 4: Getting Backdoor
Part 5: Post-Ups and Deep Catches
Part 6: Triple Threat
Part 7: Pick and Roll and Pick and Pop
Part 8: Offensive Rebounding

The categories are somewhat determined by a players individual habits but I was thinking of doing the Russell and Oscar videos in the format of scouting tools recently. And also doing Baylor in the same fashion as I just discovered a lot more footage of Baylor.

I feel like I have a good handle on center position play, but the "greatest all around players ever" candidates like Baylor and Robertson I'm wondering if they are doing a lot of things I'm not used to recognizing or making categories for. What categories (if any) do you guys think should be added for them? Or would the categories like I made for Bellamy be good enough to encapsulate any player, frontcourt or backcourt?

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

Okay guys, I've made scouting tools on centers and broken up their games into the major components of how I see/understand how they played.

For example my latest video was about Walt Bellamy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYCnrkv_GL8

And it is broken up as follows:

Part 1: Introduction and Physical Tools
Part 2: Defense
Part 3: Transition Game
Part 4: Getting Backdoor
Part 5: Post-Ups and Deep Catches
Part 6: Triple Threat
Part 7: Pick and Roll and Pick and Pop
Part 8: Offensive Rebounding

The categories are somewhat determined by a players individual habits but I was thinking of doing the Russell and Oscar videos in the format of scouting tools recently. And also doing Baylor in the same fashion as I just discovered a lot more footage of Baylor.

I feel like I have a good handle on center position play, but the "greatest all around players ever" candidates like Baylor and Robertson I'm wondering if they are doing a lot of things I'm not used to recognizing or making categories for. What categories (if any) do you guys think should be added for them? Or would the categories like I made for Bellamy be good enough to encapsulate any player, frontcourt or backcourt?

I dont know much about scouting tools, but just use all the play types from nba.com and them im sure it will be fine.

also, if its too much to ask, could you do a synergy profile like PHILA did in his research?

Also, in your research, how good was Robertson at orchestrating the pick and roll? i consider him underrated (I have his peak well ahead of Kobe, West, Baylor, Durant, etc.)

but I think he was underrated in that regard.

[CavaliersFTW]

I dont know much about scouting tools, but just use all the play types from nba.com and them im sure it will be fine.

also, if its too much to ask, could you do a synergy profile like PHILA did in his research?

Also, in your research, how good was Robertson at orchestrating the pick and roll? i consider him underrated (I have his peak well ahead of Kobe, West, Baylor, Durant, etc.)

but I think he was underrated in that regard.
What are all the play types from nba.com, got a link?

Oscar was elite at just about everything, including pick and rolls which he ran well with Wayne Embry. Didn't use it as much with Jabbar since Jabbar was a lot skinnier and not as good at setting them.

[Gotterdammerung]

I agree that Robertson was elite in all phases of the game - many credit him as the most fundamentally sound player in NBA history.

A better question would be - what couldn't Oscar do, in what category or skill-set wasn't he elite? :hammerhead:

[CavaliersFTW]

So for players like Oscar and Baylor (actually maybe any player for future reference)

Would these be better categories?:

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/?PT=player&OD=offensive

*EDIT* My question with this is, don't some of these plays overlap?

Like aren't a lot of post-ups also technically offensive isolation? If a player is in post-up posotion and is dumped the ball and the defender is set, that's also an isolation play - does that get ommited from isolation plays then since it's more specifically a post-up? That's what confuses me it seems like there's some overlap.

[ClipperRevival]

So for players like Oscar and Baylor (actually maybe any player for future reference)

Would these be better categories?:

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/?PT=player&OD=offensive

*EDIT* My question with this is, don't some of these plays overlap?

Like aren't a lot of post-ups also technically offensive isolation? If a player is in post-up posotion and is dumped the ball and the defender is set, that's also an isolation play - does that get ommited from isolation plays then since it's more specifically a post-up? That's what confuses me it seems like there's some overlap.

It's both. You can have one play that counts as several categories. For instance receiving the ball in the low block, the offensive player faces up in the TT position. That's a post play, iso play and TT play. And what offensive move you do on that play also counts. Like jumper, drive, back to the basket shot, etc.

[CavaliersFTW]

Do they include assist making as part of those NBA categories?

For example, the pick and roll ball handler role. If a player sets a pick, then the ball handler feeds him and he gets an assist, is that what that category is for? Or is it the number of times that player shot the ball and made it after the roll man set the screen and dragged the defense away from him?

Or is it both?

[Stu Jackson]

i have nothing but respect for older players though i think it was easier for them with lesser competition due to baseball, boxing, track being more popular

include as much one on one footage of them playing against defenders who are long and quick, and mostly african american

when you make a video please post it here on this forum

[CavaliersFTW]

It's both. You can have one play that counts as several categories. For instance receiving the ball in the low block, the offensive player faces up in the TT position. That's a post play, iso play and TT play. And what offensive move you do on that play also counts. Like jumper, drive, back to the basket shot, etc.
This all would confuse me and maybe muddy up my scouting videos I think.

I try to categorize plays as one type of thing. Though, maybe that's inherently wrong.

For example I try to keep post plays as as post plays and not 'also' something else. Triple threat plays as triple threat plays, etc. I don't cross them over even if there's gray area in how they start. I feel like if a player starts as triple threat but then backs into his man down to the basket or to splash a turnaround jumper it's generally a post play because the triple threat player read the defender, decided he had a mouse in the house, and proceeded to back him down. I feel like if a post player catches the ball in the post than moves out to triple threat it becomes a triple threat play because I feel like he had to 'reset' the play because he couldn't do anything in the post due to the defense or w/e. I feel like how deep they are helps me determine what is triple threat and what is a post play. Generally, anything around the key where a player catches it with their back turned, and still finishes the play in the same vicinity, is a post play. Even if they 'face-up' and launch a two-step drive running hook to the middle - that's a post play to me because they posted up for the catch, and finished deep. Even though they faced up.

Right?

I'm just trying to wrap my head around these plays to see if it's possible to make a scouting video where each play only falls under one category. Even if it just boils down to my own scrutiny. If I can categorize each play I see as just one category I'll reset the way I make scouting videos into the NBA category format. However, if the NBA format itself uses single plays under multiple categories I'm not sure I could.

[CavaliersFTW]

i have nothing but respect for older players though i think it was easier for them with lesser competition due to baseball, boxing, track being more popular

include as much one on one footage of them playing against defenders who are long and quick, and mostly african american

when you make a video please post it here on this forum
"one on one footage" - That's inherently flawed. One on one plays comprise a minority of any player in NBA history's NBA baskets. As this link illustrates, these are how points are actually scored in the course of a basketball game. Isolation aka one on one plays are but a minority: http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/?PT=player&OD=offensive
You should want to see all types of available plays. Which is what I provide.

Also, the majority of 1960's and all of the 1970's decade in the NBA was majority black. So, that's already factually true. For example centers Walt Bellamy played at the center position:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-588vH-hA_VE/ViL9Ixj3bdI/AAAAAAAAHM4/1K0sj4Zs6g4/s640-Ic42/Bellamy.jpg

Count how many are black. Add up how many times he played them.

That's already 706 of his career 1,086 games. Those are just the big name HOFers/All-Stars.

[Stu Jackson]

"one on one footage" - That's inherently flawed. One on one plays comprise a minority of any player in NBA history's NBA baskets. As this link illustrates, these are how points are actually scored in the course of a basketball game. Isolation aka one on one plays are but a minority: http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/?PT=player&OD=offensive
You should want to see all types of available plays. Which is what I provide.

Also, the majority of 1960's and all of the 1970's decade in the NBA was majority black. So, that's already factually true. For example centers Walt Bellamy played at the center position:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-588vH-hA_VE/ViL9Ixj3bdI/AAAAAAAAHM4/1K0sj4Zs6g4/s640-Ic42/Bellamy.jpg

Count how many are black. Add up how many times he played them.

That's already 706 of his career 1,086 games. Those are just the big name HOFers/All-Stars.
big men were definitely back, but you are talking perimeter players

a guy like the pearl could dominate someone one on one, white or black. so could the sky walker

robertson and elgin retired before i got into watching basketball

it would be great if you could show them going one on one and doing well against a variety of covers

just to show what they are capable of

[ClipperRevival]

This all would confuse me and maybe muddy up my scouting videos I think.

I try to categorize plays as one type of thing. Though, maybe that's inherently wrong.

For example I try to keep post plays as as post plays and not 'also' something else. Triple threat plays as triple threat plays, etc. I don't cross them over even if there's gray area in how they start. I feel like if a player starts as triple threat but then backs into his man down to the basket or to splash a turnaround jumper it's generally a post play because the triple threat player read the defender, decided he had a mouse in the house, and proceeded to back him down. I feel like if a post player catches the ball in the post than moves out to triple threat it becomes a triple threat play because I feel like he had to 'reset' the play because he couldn't do anything in the post due to the defense or w/e. I feel like how deep they are helps me determine what is triple threat and what is a post play. Generally, anything around the key where a player catches it with their back turned, and still finishes the play in the same vicinity, is a post play. Even if they 'face-up' and launch a two-step drive running hook to the middle - that's a post play to me because they posted up for the catch, and finished deep. Even though they faced up.

Right?

I'm just trying to wrap my head around these plays to see if it's possible to make a scouting video where each play only falls under one category. Even if it just boils down to my own scrutiny. If I can categorize each play I see as just one category I'll reset the way I make scouting videos into the NBA category format. However, if the NBA format itself uses single plays under multiple categories I'm not sure I could.

You are over thinking this my friend. I come from experience. Actually playing the game all my life. I am not caught up in the technicalities. All I can say is the game of basketball is an art form. It is beautiful. You can create your outcome on the canvas. I understand you are trying to define things but basketball isn't that simple. It is free flowing. Once you get caught up in the actual experience, you will, appreciaye it as i do. It is above just basic termination.

[Duffy Pratt]

I would add, where appropriate, motion off the ball. I am thinking of the sort of thing that more modern people would recognize from Reggie Miller or Rip Hamilton, but which I learned by watching John Havlicek and Bill Bradley.

[CavaliersFTW]

You are over thinking this my friend. I come from experience. Actually playing the game all my life. I am not caught up in the technicalities. All I can say is the game of basketball is an art form. It is beautiful. You can create your outcome on the canvas. I understand you are trying to define things but basketball isn't that simple. It is free flowing. Once you get caught up in the actual experience, you will, appreciaye it as i do. It is above just basic termination.
I'm coming from the angle of trying to break up a video so as to explain the game of legends.

Of course the game is dynamic and creative. However, so is music. It still can all be broken up and categorized into a fundamental structure. That's all I'm looking for is a fundamental structure of categories to present the players 'plays' in that I discover on film.

I was looking to use this structure and get people's input on it: http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/?PT=player&OD=offensive

Make sense?

[CavaliersFTW]

I would add, where appropriate, motion off the ball. I am thinking of the sort of thing that more modern people would recognize from Reggie Miller or Rip Hamilton, but which I learned by watching John Havlicek and Bill Bradley.
Those would all be explained as backdoor cuts, hand offs, or off-screen plays though would they not?

[ClipperRevival]

I'm coming from the angle of trying to break up a video so as to explain the game of legends.

Of course the game is dynamic and creative. However, so is music. It still can all be broken up and categorized into a fundamental structure. That's all I'm looking for is a fundamental structure of categories to present the players 'plays' in that I discover on film.

I was looking to use this structure and get people's input on it: http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/?PT=player&OD=offensive

Make sense?

That makes sense but seems like overkill. Like many of the specific stats might not apply to a certain player. But it does have all of the basics. Let us know when it's completed, I look forward to viewing some of the old time wing players.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

What are all the play types from nba.com, got a link?

Oscar was elite at just about everything, including pick and rolls which he ran well with Wayne Embry. Didn't use it as much with Jabbar since Jabbar was a lot skinnier and not as good at setting them.

Ball handler P and R
Roll man P and R
transition
Cutting
Off screen
hand-off
spot up (which is also spot cut)
Misc (dont know much about this, but its safe to say to ignore it)

I honestly think that the pick and roll was one of his strengths (though, he had many).

I recall a quote from kareem said somethiing along the lines of "I remember how oscar always gave it in the right spot, when we ran the pick and roll, he would always put it low enough that i would catch it and there wouldnt be a huge fight for the ball, but high enough that the little guys couldnt steal it. if you played with Oscar, you will score"

now, I do believe Kareem tends to exagerrate alot (while I believe Robertson, overall, is the 2nd greatest point guard ever comfortably peak wise [in my conventional rankings, I have his peak a good 5-10 spots ahead of paul, who I think i criminally underrated, and despite my unpopular opinion that Curry is the best point guard possible for the modern era because of spacing, I still have oscars peak above curry's because while Oscar will dominate in ANY era, curry would only dominate in the modern one, and obviously, without the 3 point line, it would be kinda sad. a player, cant remember his name, at 60 years old, was a pure shooter and couldnt get into the league. his shooting ability was ridiculous, as in, 209 3 pointers in a row, and made 97% of his free throws. while curry is far from "just a shooter" and is underrated in other regards, He wouldnt exactly be a "star" back then, as a halfcourt shot would be the same as an open layup, but to be honest, the thing about kareem is that ive never seen him praise a player, and personally, while I believe the gap is very overstated, I do think that magic is better than robertson)

but I feel that robertson was an underrated passer. I believe alot of players are underrated from that era because they werent used well. Baylor was underrated too, while I definately dont rate him as high as some others do, the fact that he has 10 followers on twitter is both hilarious and kind of sad. His finishing around the rim is underrated, video makes it seem like he was mj in that regard, and even though his fg% isnt exactly steller, I do still feel like he had one of the most modern games, and would transition very well. his impact was immense. lakers were on a 63 win pace with him, and that dropped to barely above 500 without him, though granted, some of his absenses coincided with wests absenses, and 5 of the 15 lost games were against the celtics, though with baylor they won quite a few games against the celtics that year, and brought them to 7.

on a sidenote, the way people here talk about russell is downright sad. I mean, I would love to see a video on him. on a sidenote, the celtics, whenever russel was injured, were league average on defense. ish.

while I do believe that the flashy passes are incredible, I would like to see full games to see what kinds of passes these are, if that makes sense. where do you get these videos? I would like to see the stats and make some box score stuff during next summer or something, on the stars of this generation.

[DavisIsMyUniBro]

So for players like Oscar and Baylor (actually maybe any player for future reference)

Would these be better categories?:

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/?PT=player&OD=offensive

*EDIT* My question with this is, don't some of these plays overlap?

Like aren't a lot of post-ups also technically offensive isolation? If a player is in post-up posotion and is dumped the ball and the defender is set, that's also an isolation play - does that get ommited from isolation plays then since it's more specifically a post-up? That's what confuses me it seems like there's some overlap.

a post up is classified as when a player is 15 or less feet from the basket, and recieves the ball with his back towards the basket. faceup and post ups apply there.

spot ups include catch and drives, which is kind of wierd imo.

cut is just any time the person recieving the ball goes towards the ball.

generally, just use your gut instict. imo, even the statistians get 1 or 2 possessions off.

you should collaborate with PHILA. thats the real one two punch lol.

[CavaliersFTW]

Ball handler P and R
Roll man P and R
transition
Cutting
Off screen
hand-off
spot up (which is also spot cut)
Misc (dont know much about this, but its safe to say to ignore it)

Question on transition category.

Does the entire 5 man defending team need to be back and "set" before transition becomes ruled out? Or can one defender get back in time, be defending the player who is pushing the ball in transition for it to change to say, an "isolation" play?

There's a play of Elgin Baylor running ahead of the pack in 'transition' but two Knicks players are at least a step ahead of him. One sort of sets his feet and looks like he's "ready" to defend Baylor one on one the other goes under the basket to protect the rim. Baylor hits a quick jumper over them. But Baylor was pretty much on the run in transition the whole time prior to the brief moment he's forced to stop due to the defender getting set.

Would that still be a transition play due to the entire 5 man Knicks team not being back on defense? Or Isolation play due to at least one player ready to defend Baylor? I'm assuming it's still transition until all 5 players on a defensive side are ready to play defense.

[ClipperRevival]

Question on transition category.

Does the entire 5 man defending team need to be back and "set" before transition becomes ruled out? Or can one defender get back in time, be defending the player who is pushing the ball in transition for it to change to say, an "isolation" play?

There's a play of Elgin Baylor running ahead of the pack in 'transition' but two Knicks players are at least a step ahead of him. One sort of sets his feet and looks like he's "ready" to defend Baylor one on one the other goes under the basket to protect the rim. Baylor hits a quick jumper over them. But Baylor was pretty much on the run in transition the whole time prior to the brief moment he's forced to stop due to the defender getting set.

Would that still be a transition play due to the entire 5 man Knicks team not being back on defense? Or Isolation play due to at least one player ready to defend Baylor? I'm assuming it's still transition until all 5 players on a defensive side are ready to play defense.

That's a transition play. In transition, the D is not set and even if a defender is ahead of the offensive player, it's still not a half court setting where the D is set and ready to defend.

Iso occurs in a half court set when the D is set and the defender guarding the offensive player is also set. The ability to score on iso consistently is probably the hardest thing to do in basketball. Not too many guys can do it against such a setting where everyone is set on D. Much easier to score in transition where the action is more fluid and not every defender is set. That's when the athleticism of an offensive player can shine through.

[CavaliersFTW]

That's a transition play. In transition, the D is not set and even if a defender is ahead of the offensive player, it's still not a half court setting where the D is set and ready to defend.

Iso occurs in a half court set when the D is set and the defender guarding the offensive player is also set. The ability to score on iso consistently is probably the hardest thing to do in basketball. Not too many guys can do it against such a setting where everyone is set on D. Much easier to score in transition where the action is more fluid and not every defender is set. That's when the athleticism of an offensive player can shine through.
Good to know.

Going to try to follow NBA.com's categories as best as possible for three new scouting videos

Elgin, Oscar, and Connie Hawkins (Hawkins one won't be as fair/thorough to him as a player though as he's only got 10 minutes of footage to the other guys 30ish).

One more question, NBA.com's pick and roll ball handler category reads as follows:

[I]"A screen is set on the ball handler

[ClipperRevival]

[QUOTE=CavaliersFTW]Good to know.

Going to try to follow NBA.com's categories as best as possible for three new scouting videos

Elgin, Oscar, and Connie Hawkins (Hawkins one won't be as fair/thorough to him as a player though as he's only got 10 minutes of footage to the other guys 30ish).

One more question, NBA.com's pick and roll ball handler category reads as follows:

[I]"A screen is set on the ball handler

[CavaliersFTW]

Using a screen is different from the P&R or P&P. If you see someone using a screen and taking a shot off that, it's not a P&R. I don't even know if the P&R existed back in those days. For a P&R, there has to be two guys using it to try to create offense, like they do today. They are using it to see how the defense reacts to it. Do they switch? Does the guy go over or under the screen? How well are they able to switch? And the ball handler and the roller must determine what's the best course of action based on how the D reacts. A lot of reading and reacting.
P&R iss basic basketball that's been around since before that time, look: https://youtu.be/gYCnrkv_GL8?t=9m52s
That's Bellamy demonstrating textbook screen/pop/rollman.

The NBA.com stat definition pretty much says anyone setting a screen for a ball handler on the perimeter is a roll man - whether they roll or not, or whether the ball handler chooses to use them or not. I'm just trying to interpret how NBA.com is interpreting these plays. I care not if there's a difference of opinion as much as I care that I'm being congruent with NBA.com's categories. If you think I'm interpreting their description wrong than how would you categorize a play where a ball handler with a live dribble chooses to run past a screen to drive or shoot?

These are your options:
http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/?PT=player&OD=offensive

The only one that mentions a screen being set for a ball handler is pick and roll ball handler category unless I'm missing an important detail in one of the other categories?

[ClipperRevival]

P&R iss basic basketball that's been around since before that time, look: https://youtu.be/gYCnrkv_GL8?t=9m52s
That's Bellamy demonstrating textbook screen/pop/rollman.

The NBA.com stat definition pretty much says anyone setting a screen for a ball handler on the perimeter is a roll man - whether they roll or not, or whether the ball handler chooses to use them or not. I'm just trying to interpret how NBA.com is interpreting these plays. I care not if there's a difference of opinion as much as I care that I'm being congruent with NBA.com's categories. If you think I'm interpreting their description wrong than how would you categorize a play where a ball handler with a live dribble chooses to run past a screen to drive or shoot?

These are your options:
http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/?PT=player&OD=offensive

The only one that mentions a screen being set for a ball handler is pick and roll ball handler category unless I'm missing an important detail in one of the other categories?

Like I said, you are overthinking this. Stop trying to think in absolutes when it comes to basketball.

What I saw in your Bellamy video is a very primitive version of the P&R, far different from the scientific way the P&R is broken down today. Bellamy wasn't even really setting a real pick in many of those plays. Today, guys are called for moving screens all the time because they are trying to gain every advantage imaginable.

Like I said, a screen is just a screen. But when you try to get some sort of offensive production going with the two players involved, that's a P&R. If a guy just sets a screen, that's not a P&R, at least to me. But I go off what I know and from experience, not by some rule book. So you can take it however you want.