Rule Enforced Spacing vs. Shooting Encouraged Spacing

[GIF REACTION]

Rule Enforced Spacing
Rule Enforced Spacing relates to the offensive floor spacing teams achieved during the Illegal Defense period (1981-2001)

1981 - Illegal Defense Guidelines put in place to increase scoring and open up the paint
Passage from Bill Simmons' (Globally known NBA analyst, well respected publically) book
[QUOTE]The new wave of coaches made defenses sophisticated enough by 1981 that [B][COLOR="Red"]the league created an

[GIF REACTION]

Shooting Encouraged Spacing
Shooting Encouraged Spacing refers to the offensive floor spreading, occurring after Illegal Defense was removed in 2001. "Encouraged" implies that it is not mandatory, or enforced, to space the floor. Whereas with Rule Enforced Spacing, failure to spread the court with accordance to the Illegal Defense Guidelines, results in a technical and eventual free throws.

2001 - Removal of Illegal Defense Guidelines
Purpose: To encourage ball movement and team play through giving defenses more freedom to defend, particularly help defense from the weak side, which was extremely restricted from 1981-2001 with the Illegal defense guideline in place

(Up coming quotes are from some of the most renowned and well respected NBA analysts and writers on the Earth today. Earning the big bucks because they are the best at what they do... Including ESPN's Henry Abbott, and Grantland's Zach Lowe)


“Getting to the hole is getting harder and harder,” says Chicago’s Carlos Boozer


“A lot of the defensive strategies you see now are a natural evolution from rule changes,” says Houston GM Daryl Morey, in reference to the league’s decision a decade ago to abandon illegal defense rules and essentially allow zone defenses. “First the defense evolved by overloading the strong side, and now the offenses are evolving to beat that.”


“The league has gotten so different today,” (Jim) Boylan says. “You just have to move the ball from one side to the other against the really good defensive teams.”

Isolation and Post up plays are much easier to defend now compared to the Illegal Defense era. Offenses have had to adjust to the modern, strong side flooding defenses, which require full court use, putting a premium on shooting ability enforced spacing (Not rule enforced spacing), passing and movement.


The league overall understands this, though some coaching staffs have been quicker than others in adjusting their systems. The percentage of offensive possessions that end with isolation plays and post-up shots has declined every season for the last five years, per Synergy Sports. In 2008-09, the year after the Celtics used a Thibodeau-designed system to create one of the stingiest defenses ever, 27 of the league’s 30 teams still finished at least 9 percent of their offensive possessions via an isolation play, according to Synergy Sports. The Magic, at 7.4 percent, were the least isolation-prone team in the league that season.3 This season, 15 teams — half the league — are below that 9 percent isolation mark, and a whopping 11 have lower isolation shares than Milwaukee’s league-low number from 2008-09. The drop in post-ups has been similar, and the numbers would seem to indicate an increase in ball movement.

Conversely, this has had an effect on the specifics of personnel scoring, not necessarily team scoring output. Elite scorer numbers are down across the board, and this is in direct effect due to advanced defenses thanks to the removal of Illegal defense. With post ups and isolation plays being able to be defended much better, more ball movement and clever schemes are required for these elite scorers to hit the box score.


Thorpe explains it best in the video, but the gist is this: In recent years more and more NBA coaches have signed up for the defensive philosophy, popularized by Tom Thibodeau since 2007-08, of "flooding ball-side box."

This is not the same as double-teaming, but it has some similarities. When the ball is on one side of the court, watch for this: Very often an extra defender sneaks over to join the action, bringing a crowd of defenders closer to the ball. It's something that became legal when the NBA began allowing zone defenses in 2001, but it took until 2008 for coaches to really figure out how to take best advantage.

That's when the big-time gunners started to disappear.

Flooding the side of the court with the ball makes everything tougher for that star scorer, starting when he makes the catch and assesses options. Driving lanes are tighter or closed off entirely. More defenders have more ability to get hands in faces. It's difficult to reach favored spots on the court, and to operate once there.


That's all happening. Stars putting up big numbers are incredibly hard to find this season compared to five years ago, but overall team scoring is down only about two points per game -- the non-star scorers must be picking up a little slack.

And as for assists, in 1985-86, the 10 players who played the longest minutes in the season's first 36 games combined for 1,308 assists. Five years ago, that number was 1,482. This year it's all the way up to 1,768.

David Thorpe

Now, when you beat that first line of defense, you’ve got four dudes very often sitting, waiting for you on ball-side …You might have three, four, even five defenders on that ball-side box. That wasn’t the case when Jordan played … You couldn’t go anywhere near a ball-side box back then. There were great teams like Chuck Daly’s Pistons and Pat Riley’s Lakers that devised “zone,” so to speak, to kind of flood the ball more, but it was nothing, Henry [Abbott of ESPN], like it is today. The teeth of the defense today is much sharper, and there’s many more teeth then there was back when Jordan played,

George Karl on how the rule changes have made post ups inefficient

“The game is getting out of balance,” says George Karl, now coaching perhaps the league’s preeminent post-up brute. “But until we figure out a way to make the post-up more efficient, we’re not going back. You just can’t win throwing the ball into the post 60 times per game.”


Referees let point guards flit around unfettered, but the paint remains a war zone where brutality can trump skill. Legalized zone frees help defenders to sandwich dangerous post-up threats. “The reason the post-up doesn't work anymore is that teams just front now,” Karl says. Help defenders can drift from their assignments to prevent a lob pass over that front, forcing the defense to whip the ball elsewhere.


http://i.imgur.com/c09G6c1.gif
Dwight post up to face up drive to the hoop from the low post, while Steve Nash, Kobe, MWP, and Antwan Jamison spread the court with their 3 point shooting. Jameer sags off MWP and attempts to swipe the ball from Dwight. This would be an illegal defense in the 90's because it would be considered a double, but it was not a hard double, very much slow and awarely trying to zone and cover space. Dwight finishes strong with the nifty left hook.

http://i.imgur.com/OFCH8de.gif
Blake works in the low post. The strong side and rim is spaced due to having elite 3pt shooters Chris Paul and JJ Reddick at the top of the key, and Matt Barnes in the weakside corner 3. Deandre is baseline, creating a threat with his lob ability, so his defender has to keep contact and respect his offensive threat. This allows Blake to work his way in the post and get a great spin right hand hook shot. Also, noticed how Curry is jumping back and forth, trying to softly double and annoy Blake while being ready for pass out to Paul at the 3 line. This would be considered a clear illegal defense in the Rule Enforced Spacing era.

http://i.imgur.com/gMYnoFZ.gif
Lebron ISO drives to the rim for the AND1 while he has the floor spaced with Mozgov at the top, ready for an 18 footer which he can hit well, Delly and Shump at the 3, spacing the weakside, and Thompson spacing weakside baseline with his Lob ability, similar to Deandre Jordan.

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reserved

[3ball]

The full Illegal Defense Guidelines from the NBA rule book found here (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html), also shown at realgm here (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=28840140&sid=f37d422abcb4fb3198dba014bc15f361#p28840140)
.

[GreatHILL]

hey wigga how about you kill yaself?

[LoneyROY7]

The f*ck are you boys doing on this nice Sunday morning?

Drink some OJ, make some pancakes, and watch some damn football. F*ck all this noise.

[GIF REACTION]

The f*ck are you boys doing on this nice Sunday morning?

Drink some OJ, make some pancakes, and watch some damn football. F*ck all this noise.
Sunday night here bro

[3ball]

league average ranged from 2 3pters a game, to 10. How were these teams able to be such efficient offenses without having shooters to spread the half court?

The Rules enforced, allowed them to do so... Commonly known as the Clear-out, that commentators would mention at the time.


It's exactly like you said in the bolded above - teams DIDN'T spread the floor - teams isolated like any era does, but they rarely did the clearouts you posted with 3-4 guys behind the 3-point line.. Having 3-4 non-shooters behind the line in a gimmick fashion was considered weird back then too.. In today's game, clearouts aren't a gimmick or weird, because the guys behind the line are actual 3-point shooters that force the defense into a real decision of whether to guard closely or risk getting burnt by sagging off.

The sheer rarity of clearouts in previous eras makes it obvious your "rules-enforced" spacing theory isn't valid, since it would only be valid those rare times a clearout was ran.. Today's game runs that play far more often - we saw Lebron get those clearouts 10+ times per game in the Finals.. But regardless - both eras defend those plays the exact same way, with the defenders sagging off shooters to the edge of the paint and the right to sag into the paint for up to 3 seconds.

[GIF REACTION]

1981 - Illegal Defense Guidelines put in place to increase scoring and open up the paint
Passage from Bill Simmons' (Globally known NBA analyst, well respected publically) book

The new wave of coaches made defenses sophisticated enough by 1981 that the league created an “illegal defense” rule to open up the paint. Here’s how referee Ed Rush explained it to SI: “We were becoming a jump-shot league, so we went to the coaches and said, ‘You’ve screwed the game with all your great defenses. Now fix it.’ And they did. The new rule will open up the middle and give the great players room to move. People like Julius Erving and David Thompson who used to beat their own defensive man and then still have to pull up for a jump shot because they were being double-teamed, should have an extra four or five feet to move around in. And that’s all those guys need.”

Effect:
1979 league average offensive rating: 103.8

1981-82
• Zone defense rules clarified with new rules for Illegal Defensive Alignments.
a. Weak side defenders may come in the pro lane (16’), but not in the college lane (12’) for more than three seconds.
b. Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player adjacent to paint area).
c. Player without ball may not be double-teamed from weak side.
d. Offensive player above foul line and inside circle must be played by defender inside dotted line.
e. If offensive player is above the top of the circle, defender must come to a position above foul line.
f. Defender on cutter must follow the cutter, switch, or double-team the ball.

1982: League average offensive rating 106.9

2001 - Removal of Illegal Defense Guidelines
Purpose: To encourage ball movement and team play through giving defenses more freedom to defend, particularly help defense from the weak side, which was extremely restricted from 1981-2001 with the Illegal defense guideline in place

(Up coming quotes are from some of the most renowned and well respected NBA analysts and writers on the Earth today. Earning the big bucks because they are the best at what they do... Including ESPN's Henry Abbott, and Grantland's Zach Lowe)


“Getting to the hole is getting harder and harder,” says Chicago’s Carlos Boozer


“A lot of the defensive strategies you see now are a natural evolution from rule changes,” says Houston GM Daryl Morey, in reference to the league’s decision a decade ago to abandon illegal defense rules and essentially allow zone defenses. “First the defense evolved by overloading the strong side, and now the offenses are evolving to beat that.”


“The league has gotten so different today,” (Jim) Boylan says. “You just have to move the ball from one side to the other against the really good defensive teams.”

Isolation and Post up plays are much easier to defend now compared to the Illegal Defense era. Offenses have had to adjust to the modern, strong side flooding defenses, which require full court use, putting a premium on shooting ability enforced spacing (Not rule enforced spacing), passing and movement.


The league overall understands this, though some coaching staffs have been quicker than others in adjusting their systems. The percentage of offensive possessions that end with isolation plays and post-up shots has declined every season for the last five years, per Synergy Sports. In 2008-09, the year after the Celtics used a Thibodeau-designed system to create one of the stingiest defenses ever, 27 of the league’s 30 teams still finished at least 9 percent of their offensive possessions via an isolation play, according to Synergy Sports. The Magic, at 7.4 percent, were the least isolation-prone team in the league that season.3 This season, 15 teams — half the league — are below that 9 percent isolation mark, and a whopping 11 have lower isolation shares than Milwaukee’s league-low number from 2008-09. The drop in post-ups has been similar, and the numbers would seem to indicate an increase in ball movement.

Conversely, this has had an effect on the specifics of personnel scoring, not necessarily team scoring output. Elite scorer numbers are down across the board, and this is in direct effect due to advanced defenses thanks to the removal of Illegal defense. With post ups and isolation plays being able to be defended much better, more ball movement and clever schemes are required for these elite scorers to hit the box score.


Thorpe explains it best in the video, but the gist is this: In recent years more and more NBA coaches have signed up for the defensive philosophy, popularized by Tom Thibodeau since 2007-08, of "flooding ball-side box."

This is not the same as double-teaming, but it has some similarities. When the ball is on one side of the court, watch for this: Very often an extra defender sneaks over to join the action, bringing a crowd of defenders closer to the ball. It's something that became legal when the NBA began allowing zone defenses in 2001, but it took until 2008 for coaches to really figure out how to take best advantage.

That's when the big-time gunners started to disappear.

Flooding the side of the court with the ball makes everything tougher for that star scorer, starting when he makes the catch and assesses options. Driving lanes are tighter or closed off entirely. More defenders have more ability to get hands in faces. It's difficult to reach favored spots on the court, and to operate once there.


That's all happening. Stars putting up big numbers are incredibly hard to find this season compared to five years ago, but overall team scoring is down only about two points per game -- the non-star scorers must be picking up a little slack.

And as for assists, in 1985-86, the 10 players who played the longest minutes in the season's first 36 games combined for 1,308 assists. Five years ago, that number was 1,482. This year it's all the way up to 1,768.

David Thorpe

Now, when you beat that first line of defense, you’ve got four dudes very often sitting, waiting for you on ball-side …You might have three, four, even five defenders on that ball-side box. That wasn’t the case when Jordan played … You couldn’t go anywhere near a ball-side box back then. There were great teams like Chuck Daly’s Pistons and Pat Riley’s Lakers that devised “zone,” so to speak, to kind of flood the ball more, but it was nothing, Henry [Abbott of ESPN], like it is today. The teeth of the defense today is much sharper, and there’s many more teeth then there was back when Jordan played,

George Karl on how the rule changes have made post ups inefficient

“The game is getting out of balance,” says George Karl, now coaching perhaps the league’s preeminent post-up brute. “But until we figure out a way to make the post-up more efficient, we’re not going back. You just can’t win throwing the ball into the post 60 times per game.”


Referees let point guards flit around unfettered, but the paint remains a war zone where brutality can trump skill. Legalized zone frees help defenders to sandwich dangerous post-up threats. “The reason the post-up doesn't work anymore is that teams just front now,” Karl says. Help defenders can drift from their assignments to prevent a lob pass over that front, forcing the defense to whip the ball elsewhere.

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[LoneyROY7]

Sunday night here bro

Damn, my B. Carry on.

[StephHamann]

3ball living rent free in your head

[Jameerthefear]

3ball has been exposed. Game over for that fool

[Thesmallmamba]

I'm a new poster here, but I already see the valid points that OP makes


MUCH better than that 3ball fellow :applause:

[Dr Hawk]

I'm a new poster here, but I already see the valid points that OP makes


MUCH better than that 3ball fellow :applause:

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/nBY7b7uZ3DY/hqdefault.jpg

On the other hand, 3ball is the Michael Jordan of ISH

[GIF REACTION]

bump

[oarabbus]

3ball getting embarrassed in here

[plowking]

All I'll say is, if you can't see how much better defenses are today, than you just don't know basketball. You don't even need any statistics to tell you so. Just watch the damn game, and see how much more stressed and emphasized defenses is in the game.
Look at how much more organized it is...

I don't even know where to find the stats, but I'm sure most of the top defensive ratings will be from after 2004 in regards to teams.

[Showtime80']

Is it a coincidence that scores started to dip in the early to mid 90's both in the NBA and NCAA (which has ALWAYS had TRUE ZONE defense)?!? Hell NO!!! That was the start of the decline in fundamentals and younger players entering the league to develop basic skills IN THE NBA rather than arriving with polished games! Not to mention the increase in salaries and the I wanna be like Mike mindset from the hip hop generation!

It's a simple as this, players today are just not as good as in the 80's. Take ANY random year from that decade or the early 90's and compare the top 10 MVP finalists to the ones from the last few years and it is laughable the amount of talent advantage those decades have over this one.

Look at the talent you needed to just make the Finals in the 80's let alone winning it then look at some of the pathetic rosters (specially in the East) that have made the Finals in the last 15 years! Last year's Cavs ring a bell!

Defenses today look better because they have thinner rosters to defend centered around 1 or 2 consistent scorers. Compare that to the 80's when even middle of the road teams had 3 to 5 legit scorers with solid benches and you get the picture.

[GIF REACTION]

Is it a coincidence that scores started to dip in the early to mid 90's both in the NBA and NCAA (which has ALWAYS had TRUE ZONE defense)?!? Hell NO!!! That was the start of the decline in fundamentals and younger players entering the league to develop basic skills IN THE NBA rather than arriving with polished games! Not to mention the increase in salaries and the I wanna be like Mike mindset from the hip hop generation!

It's a simple as this, players today are just not as good as in the 80's. Take ANY random year from that decade or the early 90's and compare the top 10 MVP finalists to the ones from the last few years and it is laughable the amount of talent advantage those decades have over this one.

Look at the talent you needed to just make the Finals in the 80's let alone winning it then look at some of the pathetic rosters (specially in the East) that have made the Finals in the last 15 years! Last year's Cavs ring a bell!

Defenses today look better because they have thinner rosters to defend centered around 1 or 2 consistent scorers. Compare that to the 80's when even middle of the road teams had 3 to 5 legit scorers with solid benches and you get the picture.
What you have said here is true to an extent

There were multiple factors causing this decline....

I personally feel that the NBA made some very stupid rule changes in the mid 90's... The shortening of the 3pt line for example... In theory it would help spike offenses, which it did in the short term, but it even more so congested the paint... Bringing in the 3 1 feet really affected the state of play, and how referees adjudicated games... Illegal defense was already a bloody hard rule for refs to judge, and then they lost even more sight about it when the court got more congested... By the end only few actually knew why illegal defense was called.

[Showtime80']

Let me just say that I enjoy your posts GIF even though I disagree with your general point of view.

I think the league just went the wrong way in general after they signed their NBC TV contract in 1991, before that summer if you remember they put in the flagrant foul rule which was the first domino to fall in the integrity of the game as had been played for decades in a BLATANT attempt to protect the individual star players that the league realized where their ONLY ticket to compete with more team oriented sports like the MLB and NFL. That started the whole move in rule tinkering resulting in the unrecognizable WWE-like product you see today.

That paradigm change by the NBA from teams to individuals is what spawned the 90's generation of me first fundamentally lacking players and let me tell you my friend there was NO RULE ADDITION OR SUBSTRACTION that was going to stop the decay in quality of play in the 90's. It was going to show one way or another.

Why do you think guys like Jordan, Pippen, Hakeem, Drexler, Stockton and Malone posted record numbers in wins and championships while playing at the TAIL END of their careers from 1994 to 1998!?! They were FEASTING on the undisciplined new school generation of Shaq, Penny, Kemp, Payton, Mourning, Garnett, Marbury, Mourning, Hill, Kidd, Iverson, Webber, LJ etc...

When the star power of the 80's generation (mainly Jordan) went away in the early 2000's that's when all the warts and blemishes of what the league had created in the early 90's came to the forefront and for a time there aside from the maybe the Kings, Lakers and Spurs the rest of the league was unwatchable and thus a NEW round of rule changes was in order.

What you have now is a GAME geared towards entertainment more than a hardcore SPORT! That's what the league wanted after it got a taste of MJ and it will continue to tinker with the rules to make sure it stays that way.

That's why to me and many others the 1980's was the last generation were TRUE CLASSIC basketball was played.

[DonDadda59]

All I'll say is, if you can't see how much better defenses are today, than you just don't know basketball. You don't even need any statistics to tell you so. Just watch the damn game, and see how much more stressed and emphasized defenses is in the game.
Look at how much more organized it is...

I don't even know where to find the stats, but I'm sure most of the top defensive ratings will be from after 2004 in regards to teams.

The only thing you should be sure about is that you are a fool. :lol

Nothing you said above is remotely true. Literally none of it.

[Rocketswin2013]

All I'll say is, if you can't see how much better defenses are today, than you just don't know basketball. You don't even need any statistics to tell you so. Just watch the damn game, and see how much more stressed and emphasized defenses is in the game.
Look at how much more organized it is...

I don't even know where to find the stats, but I'm sure most of the top defensive ratings will be from after 2004 in regards to teams.

Yeah the Warriors just had the best playoff DRTG since the 04 pistons. They just get up and down the court a lot(pace).

Edit: Actually it was better.

[DonDadda59]

Yeah the Warriors just had the best playoff DRTG since the 04 pistons. They just get up and down the court a lot(pace).

Edit: Actually it was better.

And they had one of the worst finals opponents ever (thank you, Eastern Conference). What did they do that was so innovative defensively? They played straight up man to man, 1 on 1, isolation defense. That's why a bench player off the bench won Finals MVP- because he so effectively shut down the so-called best player in the league virtually singlehandedly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR7oP6NmfHQ

[Sarcastic]

Let me just say that I enjoy your posts GIF even though I disagree with your general point of view.

I think the league just went the wrong way in general after they signed their NBC TV contract in 1991, before that summer if you remember they put in the flagrant foul rule which was the first domino to fall in the integrity of the game as had been played for decades in a BLATANT attempt to protect the individual star players that the league realized where their ONLY ticket to compete with more team oriented sports like the MLB and NFL. That started the whole move in rule tinkering resulting in the unrecognizable WWE-like product you see today.

That paradigm change by the NBA from teams to individuals is what spawned the 90's generation of me first fundamentally lacking players and let me tell you my friend there was NO RULE ADDITION OR SUBSTRACTION that was going to stop the decay in quality of play in the 90's. It was going to show one way or another.

Why do you think guys like Jordan, Pippen, Hakeem, Drexler, Stockton and Malone posted record numbers in wins and championships while playing at the TAIL END of their careers from 1994 to 1998!?! They were FEASTING on the undisciplined new school generation of Shaq, Penny, Kemp, Payton, Mourning, Garnett, Marbury, Mourning, Hill, Kidd, Iverson, Webber, LJ etc...

When the star power of the 80's generation (mainly Jordan) went away in the early 2000's that's when all the warts and blemishes of what the league had created in the early 90's came to the forefront and for a time there aside from the maybe the Kings, Lakers and Spurs the rest of the league was unwatchable and thus a NEW round of rule changes was in order.

What you have now is a GAME geared towards entertainment more than a hardcore SPORT! That's what the league wanted after it got a taste of MJ and it will continue to tinker with the rules to make sure it stays that way.

That's why to me and many others the 1980's was the last generation were TRUE CLASSIC basketball was played.


This.

[GIF REACTION]

Don't stray to far from the premise of this thread guys

In the Illegal Defense era, teams could afford to put more physical, defensive minded players on the court that lacked skill and offensive arsenal, because the offensive spacing was Rule Enforced to an extent, which provided simple offensive avenues of scoring AKA post ups and isolations as efficient routes of scoring. With Illegal defense removed, defenses clearly evolved to stifle these simplistic offensive avenues. 3pt shooting ability has become a focal point in offenses with regards to half court floor spacing. It however does not have any rule enforcement to clear the paint... The spacing relies on all 5 players offensive ability on the court...

This is all this thread is saying.

[Sarcastic]

Horse shit. What offensive ability did Tyson Chandler have when the Mavs won?

[Showtime80']

11 of the last 15 titles (Lakers with Shaq/Gasol/Binum and Spurs with Robinson/Duncan) have featured an inside/out focus proving that it works in ANY ERA. The problem is that now more than ever you CAN'T FIND the type of inside players that I listed above.

Spacing has ALWAYS existed in the NBA, the difference is that before the late 90's it was the post game that created it, not 5 perimeter oriented players dribbling the air out of the ball for 22 seconds looking for a layup or a 3 pointer. When Magic, DJ, Hornacek, Bird, Laimbeer, Andrew Toney or any other of the deadly jumpshooters from that era got an open 18 footer out of the SPACING created by the double team down low, they TOOK IT!!! and nailed them with great frequency.

Check out the 80's Celtics and Lakers half court offensive schemes when you can, they were simple, fundamental, quick hitting and most of all EFFICIENT!!! Why? Because their personnel made it that way and there was no zone defense, 3 second paint violation or the Virgin Mary herself that could stop them from scoring efficiently. Those teams and most of the teams from that era would've SHREDDED any type of defense because they were built EXACTLY the way you need to be to exploit a zone. Multiple offensive weapons surrounding a dominant post game! Hell the 94' Rockets basically won a title with Hakeem and four role players shooting open jumpers!

To call a dominant post player something "simplistic" shows a lack of appreciation for one of the HARDEST areas of basketball to master and the reason why it STARTED dying in the 90's. After Michael Jordan, players didn't want to take the time to master Kareem's, Hakeem's, Ewing's or McHale's array of post moves because it became EASIER AND SEXIER to shoot jumpers than to muscle for position on offense and defense for 40+ minutes a game.

Thus you have modern NBA offenses stagnating and making the game HARDER than it should because they're trying to break down defenses 22+ feet away from the basket versus doing it from the inside out.

[3ball]

OP is a liar.

[3ball]

OP doesn't understand man-to-man defense.

[3ball]

:facepalm

[3ball]

Illegal Defense Rules


2a. Weak side defenders may come in the pro lane (16’), but not in the college lane (12’) for more than three seconds.



As the bolded red shows, previous era defenders could remain INDEFINITELY in the "pro" lane, or the outer partition of the paint - today's defenders can't do that - they have a max of 3 seconds..

For the inner part of the paint (college lane), weakside defenders can stay for up to 3 seconds, just like today's defenders.





2b. Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player adjacent to paint area).

2b. When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area with no time limitations. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area.


Rule 2b is a legal paint-camping provision.

As you can see, defenders were allowed to stay in the paint "with no time limitation" if their man was in the paint already, or "adjacent" to the paint - "adjacent" is defined as when the offensive player is within 3 feet of either side of the paint, as denoted by hash marks on the baseline.. The hash marks are the only thing refs had to eyeball if an offensive player was "adjacent"/within 3 feet, or further than 3 feet/in violation, which is why defenders often camped in the paint while their man was all the way at the 3-point line (no enforcement).

The criteria needed to paint-camp (a defender's man being in the paint or within 3 feet of either side) was always fulfilled in previous eras due to the lack of 3-point shooting and spacing - coaches foolishly ran offenses that didn't shoot threes and positioned players close to the rim, which activated this legal-paint camping provision of Rule 2b.. The full Illegal Defense Guidelines from the NBA rule book are here (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html), also shown at realgm here (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=28840140&sid=f37d422abcb4fb3198dba014bc15f361#p28840140).





2c. Player without ball may not be double-teamed from weak side.


Rule 2c is the same thing as today's flooding - but flooding isn't an advantage for today's game.. Today's 3-pointers/spacing and the resulting further distance of help defenders makes offensive players more dangerous when they catch the ball, which necessitates extra tactics so the ballhandler isn't so secluded by the spacing - but the flooding tactic merely makes the concentration of defenders equivalent to an un-spaced court where help defenders were already in closer proximity.

Lack of spacing and closer proximity of help defenders made previous eras better-equipped to handle a player that has the ball without needing risky gambles like flooding, where big men come away from the rim to flood in a mismatch outside the paint.. Instead, the lack of 3-point shooting kept offensive players closer to the paint, which allowed defenders to paint-camp when their man was in the paint or within 3 feet of either side (see Rule 2b above).. Paint-camping is a more equitable way to defend the entire court, without necessitating the extra rotations and leaving guys wide open that flooding requires.






2e. When a strongside offensive player is above the tip of the circle extended, his defensive man may be no lower than the free-throw line extended (upper defensive area) for more than 2.9 seconds

2d. When an offensive player, with or without the ball, takes a position above the foul line, the defensive player may be no farther (toward the baseline) than the "middle defensive area." Defensive player(s) may enter and re-enter the "lower defensive area" as many times as desired, so long as he does not exceed 2.9 seconds.


Rule 2e above shows that the "upper defensive area" is the area above the FT line extended... This means the "middle defensive area" includes the upper part of the paint.. Rule 2d refers to the "middle defensive area" - the rule allows defenders to stand in the upper part of the paint (middle defensive area) INDEFINITELY when their man is at college 3-point distance (the tip of the circle).

Otoh, today's defenders can never stay in the paint for longer than 3 seconds unless they're within "armslength".. So today's defender isn't allowed to stand in the upper part of the paint while their man is at the college 3-point line (tip of circle), since that's way out of armslength reach.. But previous era defenders COULD stand in the upper part of the paint while their man was at the tip of the circle, so they had more flexibility in this spot.






2e. When a strongside offensive player is above the tip of the circle extended, his defensive man may be no lower than the free-throw line extended (upper defensive area) for more than 2.9 seconds. When a weakside offensive player is above the tip of the circle, his defensive man must be no lower than the "upper defensive area" for more than 2.9 seconds.



This rule is the same as today's rule - defenders in today's era AND previous eras were allowed to sag off 3-point shooters to the edge of the paint, and also dip into the paint for up to 3 seconds (highlighted in blue above).

Man-to-man defenders have always been allowed to sag off their man and Rule 2e articulates that.. The only time in history when defenders weren't allowed to sag off their man is today's paint defenders, who must remain with "armslength" (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html) of their man to remain in the 16 x 19 foot painted area.. "Armslength" (about 3 feet) is the strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder, yet this is the current policy governing the most important area of the floor: the paint.

The full Illegal Defense Guidelines from the NBA rule book found here (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html), also shown at realgm here (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=28840140&sid=f37d422abcb4fb3198dba014bc15f361#p28840140)
.
.

[3ball]

Rule Enforced Spacing


http://i.imgur.com/j7XS9e4.gif


The spacing above isn't provided by shooters because previous eras couldn't shoot 3's - the spacing is provided by the Illegal defense rules. We see the weakside defenders sagging off a little, playing a phantom zone, but it really has minimal effect on Robinson



Rules-enforced spacing didn't exist because man-to-man defenders have always been allowed to sag off their man - it wasn't a "phantom zone" or whatever phrase you made up.. Didn't you think it was weird how EVERY play you saw showed defenders sagging off their man?.. That shows how ignorant today's fan has become.

The reality is that the 4 gifs you posted showed defenders positioned exactly how they would be today against 3-point shooters - defenders in the gifs were sagging off to the edge of the paint, and defenders in both eras have the right to dip into the paint for up to 3 seconds, as stipulated in Rule 2e of the Illegal Defense Guidelines:


2e. When a strongside offensive player is above the tip of the circle extended, his defensive man may be no lower than the free-throw line extended (upper defensive area) for more than 2.9 seconds. When a weakside offensive player is above the tip of the circle, his defensive man must be no lower than the "upper defensive area" for more than 2.9 seconds.


The only time in history when defenders weren't allowed to sag off their man is today's paint defenders, who must remain with "armslength" (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html) of their man to remain in the 16 x 19 foot painted area.. "Armslength" (about 3 feet) is the strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder, yet this is the current policy governing the most important area of the floor: the paint.






How were these teams able to be such efficient offenses without having shooters to spread the half court?



Similar to how today's game has elite 3-point shooting, players in previous eras had far better midrange efficiency, which is what you need when the court isn't spaced.

But you can't judge offensive or defensive efficiency based on ORtg/DRtg, because those stats are affected by style of play.. Look at defensive rating in the 70's - it was WAY lower than today's era, so are you going to give credit to them for better defense?... Of course not... The paint was smaller back then before they made it bigger, so that lowered ratings.

Case in point: 2-pointers have higher offensive rebounding rate than 3-pointers - the higher proportion of 2-pointers taken in previous eras gave those eras higher offensive rebounding rates and subsequently higher ORtg/DRtg.. This is a well-known statistical fact.. It's just the way the stat is calculated - higher oreb rate increases ORtg and corresponding DRtg.. So again, team or league-wide offensive/defensive ratings can't be used to grade defense across eras.






How were these teams able to be such efficient offenses without having shooters to spread the half court?



Btw, it's exactly like you said in the bolded red above - teams DIDN'T spread the floor in the halfcourt - teams isolated like any era does, but they rarely did the clearouts you posted with 3-4 guys behind the 3-point line.. Having 3-4 non-shooters behind the line in a gimmick fashion was considered weird back then too.. In today's game, clearouts aren't a gimmick or weird, because the guys behind the line are actual 3-point shooters that force the defense into a real decision of whether to guard closely or risk getting burnt by sagging off.

The sheer rarity of clearouts in previous eras makes it obvious your "rules-enforced" spacing theory isn't valid, since it would only be valid those rare times a clearout was ran.. Today's game runs that play far more often - we saw Lebron get those clearouts 10+ times per game in the Finals.. But regardless - both eras defend those plays the exact same way, with the defenders sagging off shooters to the edge of the paint and the right to sag into the paint for up to 3 seconds.


[quote=GIF REACTION]


1981-82

[ralph_i_el]

Horse shit. What offensive ability did Tyson Chandler have when the Mavs won?
Pick and roll finishing. Draws defenders into the paint away from shooters.

[3ball]

Pick and roll finishing. Draws defenders into the paint away from shooters.
That's called play-finishing and it's a minimum requirement for any NBA big.

When a guard dumps it to big man for an open, in-stride finish - that's play-finishing and it's a minimum requirement of bigs with zero offensive ability like george murehean and Chandler alike.

Chandler can't create his own shot, playmake for others, or even hit a stand-still jumper like Ibaka.

[sdot_thadon]

That's called play-finishing and it's a minimum requirement for any NBA big.

When a guard dumps it to big man for an open, in-stride finish - that's play-finishing and it's a minimum requirement of bigs with zero offensive ability like george murehean and Chandler alike.

Chandler can't create his own shot, playmake for others, or even hit a stand-still jumper like Ibaka.
Actually it's not. There are and have been guys in the league who fail at this so called minimum requirement.

[Sarcastic]

Actually it's not. There are and have been guys in the league who fail at this so called minimum requirement.

More now than ever.

[3ball]

Actually it's not. There are and have been guys in the league who fail at this so called minimum requirement.
there will always be those that fail at the minimum requirement - it's still a minimum requirement and doesn't represent offensive ability the way people discuss and evaluate offensive ability in the NBA.

You should read this article and maybe get checked out - it applies to you perfectly...

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-gift-aging/201304/people-autism-spectrum-disorder-take-things-literally

[ShawkFactory]

5 posts in a row for 3ball. Rare

[warriorfan]

there will always be those that fail at the minimum requirement - it's still a minimum requirement and doesn't represent offensive ability the way people discuss and evaluate offensive ability in the NBA.

You should read this article and maybe get checked out - it applies to you perfectly...

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-gift-aging/201304/people-autism-spectrum-disorder-take-things-literally

:roll:

[sdot_thadon]

there will always be those that fail at the minimum requirement - it's still a minimum requirement and doesn't represent offensive ability the way people discuss and evaluate offensive ability in the NBA.

You should read this article and maybe get checked out - it applies to you perfectly...

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-gift-aging/201304/people-autism-spectrum-disorder-take-things-literally
Great site, seems they've done a study on you.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/ambigamy/201411/fanaticism-is-disease-alcoholism

[Hey Yo]

Actually it's not. There are and have been guys in the league who fail at this so called minimum requirement.
See 2011 starter center Heat player, Joel Anthony.

That match-up made Chandler look like he knew what he was doing.

[sdot_thadon]

See 2011 starter center Heat player, Joel Anthony.

That match-up made Chandler look like he knew what he was doing.
That was exactly who came to mind 1st.:applause:

[3ball]

Stu Lantz just confirmed everything I said during the Laker game on NBA TV just now - literally a few minutes ago.

He said the defensive 3 seconds rule forces defenders to vacate the paint if they aren't within "armslength".. Defenders must hug their man and follow them around the massive 16 x 19 foot paint, or vacate the paint.. :confusedshrug:

Forcing defenders to stay within "armslength" is the opposite of zone and the strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder to shoulder.. Yet this strict policy is what currently governs defenders inside the most important area of the floor: the paint.

[sdot_thadon]

Stu Lantz just confirmed everything I said during the Laker game on NBA TV just now - literally a few minutes ago.

He said the defensive 3 seconds rule forces defenders to vacate the paint if they aren't within "armslength".. Defenders must hug their man and follow them around the massive 16 x 19 foot paint, or vacate the paint.. :confusedshrug:

Forcing defenders to stay within "armslength" is the opposite of zone and the strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder to shoulder.. Yet this strict policy is what currently governs defenders inside the most important area of the floor: the paint.
How about you confirm this
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/ambigamy/201411/fanaticism-is-disease-alcoholism

[QUOTE]
Fanatics, ideologues and absolutists are humanity

[DoctorP]

So having shooting is encouraged in this era. I have seen a mild return of the big man in these later years. Heat are ****ed. Memphis cant get over the hump with an elite FC.

[3ball]

How about you confirm this
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/ambigamy/201411/fanaticism-is-disease-alcoholism


Man-to-man defenders have always been allowed to sag off their man and Rule 2e of Illegal Defense Guidelines confirms that:



2e. When a strongside offensive player is above the tip of the circle extended, his defensive man may be no lower than the free-throw line extended (upper defensive area) for more than 2.9 seconds. When a weakside offensive player is above the tip of the circle, his defensive man must be no lower than the "upper defensive area" for more than 2.9 seconds.


As you can see, defenders in today's era AND previous eras were allowed to sag off 3-point shooters to the edge of the paint, and also dip into the paint for up to 3 seconds.

The only time in history when man-to-man defenders weren't allowed to sag off their man is today's paint defenders, who must remain with "armslength" (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html) of their man to remain in the 16 x 19 foot painted area.. "Armslength" is about 3 feet, which is the strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder.. Yet this is the current policy governing the most important area of the floor: the paint.

The full Illegal Defense Guidelines from the NBA rule book found here (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html), also shown at realgm here (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=28840140&sid=f37d422abcb4fb3198dba014bc15f361#p28840140)

[DoctorP]

The rule-spaced game favored one-on-one and Jordan was amazing at that but he also had the elite mid-range. It's really about how players adapt to the rules changes and the great ones find a way to dominate.

[3ball]

So which rules EXACTLY are forcing defenders to follow shooters out to the 3-point line?

It's a lie - defenders who were guarding 3-point shooters could sag off their man all the way to the edge of the paint, and they could dip into the paint for up to 3 seconds, just like today's game.



2e. When a strongside offensive player is above the tip of the circle extended, his defensive man may be no lower than the free-throw line extended (upper defensive area) for more than 2.9 seconds. When a weakside offensive player is above the tip of the circle, his defensive man must be no lower than the "upper defensive area" for more than 2.9 seconds.


Defenders have ALWAYS been allowed to sag off their man.

[3ball]

So which rules EXACTLY are forcing defenders to follow shooters out to the 3-point line?

It's a lie - defenders who were guarding 3-point shooters could sag off their man all the way to the edge of the paint, and they could dip into the paint for up to 3 seconds, just like today's game.



2e. When a strongside offensive player is above the tip of the circle extended, his defensive man may be no lower than the free-throw line extended (upper defensive area) for more than 2.9 seconds. When a weakside offensive player is above the tip of the circle, his defensive man must be no lower than the "upper defensive area" for more than 2.9 seconds.


Defenders have ALWAYS been allowed to sag off their man.


Not only did defenders in previous eras sag off 3-point shooters exactly like today's defenders, but teams rarely did clearouts where they posted 3-4 guys behind the 3-point line like today's game.

So the sheer rarity of clearouts in previous eras shows that the "rules-enforced" spacing theory isn't valid, since it would only be valid those rare times a clearout was ran.. Today's game runs that play far more often - we saw Lebron get those clearouts 10+ times per game in the Finals.

But regardless - both eras defend those plays the exact same way, with the defenders sagging off shooters to the edge of the paint and the right to sag into the paint for up to 3 seconds.
.

[Rocketswin2013]

And they had one of the worst finals opponents ever (thank you, Eastern Conference). What did they do that was so innovative defensively? They played straight up man to man, 1 on 1, isolation defense. That's why a bench player off the bench won Finals MVP- because he so effectively shut down the so-called best player in the league virtually singlehandedly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR7oP6NmfHQ
You must not be very familiar with the kinds of offenses the pistons had to face.

3ball's last shit thread confirm high levels of scoring has decreased to normal-to-low the past 6 years.

Everything that made people believe the hand-checking ban and other things weakened the league's defenses from '05-'07(ORTG, DRTG, league-leading scorers) has decreased to normal levels.

The only people who deny this are people who know a lot less than the people who claim it.

You have Zach fcking Lowe, among others confirming these things. But I guess the resident obsessing compulsive stan and his fellow cult members who are nostalgic fans and trolls, hold more weight.

If this post is responded to, I expect to see some outdated quotes and outlier seasons statistics somewhere in there. It'll get the point across eventually.

[3ball]

Everything that made people believe the hand-checking ban and other things weakened the league's defenses from '05-'07(ORTG, DRTG, league-leading scorers) has decreased to normal levels.


League-wide ORtg was lower in 1997 and 1998 than the last two seasons:

1997: 106.7
1998: 105.0

2014: 106.6
2015: 105.6


Contrary to your statement, these aren't "normal" 2-year averages - they're both below-average.. One of the highest ever 4-year averages came from 2008-2011, when ORtg ranged between 107.3 and 108.3 - the 108.3 occurred in 2009, and it was an all-time high in the history in of the league.

However, using league or team ORtg/DRtg to compare across eras doesn't work, because the style of play affects in inputs that go into calculating ORtg and DRtg, such as offensive rebounding rate, FT rate, etc.

[Sarcastic]

Damn 3ball straight murdered these fools in cold blood. Another notch on the stick.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd143/Detroit_Panday/MonkShillelagh1.jpg

[3ball]

http://i.imgur.com/UZg8H99.gif


Rules-based spacing - in your gif, defenders HAVEN'T followed shooters to the 3-point line - they're sagging off, just like today's game, so the old rules didn't provide any more spacing than today's rules do.. And all of your gifs were like this, with the defenders sagging off the 3-point shooters, just like today's game.

So which rules EXACTLY are forcing defenders to follow shooters out to the 3-point line?.. Nothing of course - there's never been any such thing.. Man-to-man defenders have always been allowed to sag off their man.. The Illegal Defense Guidelines didn't change that - defenders could sag off 3-point shooters all the way to the edge of the paint, and they could dip into the paint for up to 3 seconds, just like today's game:



2e. When a strongside offensive player is above the tip of the circle extended, his defensive man may be no lower than the free-throw line extended (upper defensive area) for more than 2.9 seconds. When a weakside offensive player is above the tip of the circle, his defensive man must be no lower than the "upper defensive area" for more than 2.9 seconds.


The full Illegal Defense Guidelines from the NBA rule book found here (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html), also shown at realgm here (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=28840140&sid=f37d422abcb4fb3198dba014bc15f361#p28840140)

Man-to-man defenders have ALWAYS been allowed to sag off their man.. The only time in history when defenders weren't allowed to sag off their man is today's paint defenders, who must remain with "armslength" (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html) of their man to remain in the 16 x 19 foot painted area.. "Armslength" (about 3 feet) is the strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder, yet this is the current policy governing the most important area of the floor: the paint.

Essentially, today's defender cannot remain in the paint with no one else around - when their man is out of "armslength", defenders must vacate the paint, which creates spacing and makes the armslength provision of the defensive 3 seconds rule a shining example of rules-enforced spacing..

Otoh, in previous eras, there was no such "armslength" language in the rules.. Defenders could remain in the paint with no one around and their man far out of armslength - according to Rule 2b of the Illegal Defense Guidelines, a defender's man could be up to 3 feet outside the paint.. This rule allowed defenders to remain in the paint more often, which discourages a spacing and is therefore NOT rule-enforced spacing:


2b. When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area with no time limitations. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area.

[GIF REACTION]

Just found a great quote from a 2015 ESPN article which exactly highlights the point of this thread


It’s different these days because the rules are different. When the NBA had illegal defense, space in the paint was legislated into the game. Defenders weren't allowed zone coverages according to where a player might drive. This all changed after 2002, when illegal defense was nixed and coaches such as Tom Thibodeau flooded the strong side to prevent scorers from driving.
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/72171/why-3s-not-dunks-now-reign-at-all-star

Essentially boiled down... As much as this is about zones, it is more about man defense, and the basic principles to which it can be played.

[3ball]

Just found a great quote from a 2015 ESPN article which exactly highlights the point of this thread


http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/72171/why-3s-not-dunks-now-reign-at-all-star

Essentially boiled down... As much as this is about zones, it is more about man defense, and the basic principles to which it can be played.
The only time in history when the NBA had rules-enforced spacing that didn't let man-to-man defenders sag off their man is with today's paint defenders - they must remain within "armslength" (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html) of their man to remain in the 16 x 19 foot painted area.. "Armslength" (about 3 feet) is the strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder, yet this is the current policy governing the most important area of the floor: the paint.

Essentially, today's defender cannot remain in the paint with no one else around - when their man is out of "armslength", defenders must vacate the paint, which creates spacing and makes the armslength provision of the defensive 3 seconds rule a shining example of rules-enforced spacing.
.

[GIF REACTION]

The only time in history when the NBA had rules-enforced spacing that didn't let man-to-man defenders sag off their man is with today's paint defenders - they must remain within "armslength" (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html) of their man to remain in the 16 x 19 foot painted area.. "Armslength" (about 3 feet) is the strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder, yet this is the current policy governing the most important area of the floor: the paint.

Essentially, today's defender cannot remain in the paint with no one else around - when their man is out of "armslength", defenders must vacate the paint, which creates spacing and makes the armslength provision of the defensive 3 seconds rule a shining example of rules-enforced spacing.
.
:facepalm

[GIF REACTION]

smarter than u aj