History PROVES: Your stars leads the league in scoring, you don't win a title.

[ClipperRevival]

Only 3 players have won a title as "the man" while leading the league in scoring.

Shaq - 2000
Jordan - 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998
KAJ - 1971

This proves that when your star is scoring that much, the optimal offensive balance to win is skewed and one player is carrying too much of a burden. So this upcoming season, whoever is leading the league in scoring, that player's team won't win a ring unless if he's a truly transcedent talent like MJ, Shaq or KAJ.

[Fallen Angel]

Grizzlies fans rubbing their hands like Birdman

[WayOfWade]

So I'd say the Jazz are in pretty good shape

[!@#$%Vectors!@#]

Grizzlies fans rubbing their hands like Birdman
:lol :lol

[Thesmallmamba]

Well... who exactly was Jordans scoring rival in the 90's?


The 90's probably had the worst overall scorers in NBA history

Jordan, Malone and then???


Wings lead the league in scoring, and the 90's had 0 wing scoring talent other than Jordan


So him leading the league in scoring doesnt tell us anything

[Straight_Ballin]

Jordan shitting all over current era accolades yet again.

[ClipperRevival]

Well... who exactly was Jordans scoring rival in the 90's?


The 90's probably had the worst overall scorers in NBA history

Jordan, Malone and then???


Wings lead the league in scoring, and the 90's had 0 wing scoring talent other than Jordan


So him leading the league in scoring doesnt tell us anything

:cry:

[Straight_Ballin]

You'd never believe this but one time these aliens came to earth, held Michael Jordan hostage and made him play a basketball game. If he lost they would have taken them to their planet for entertainment purposes. He won though.

[Thesmallmamba]

Using OP's logic, I could argue history tells us that having defensive big men and solid rebounding win championships except:

The 2012 and 2013 Heat, who won with 0 legit big men


So LeBron = GOAT then??


But then OP would argue big men talent was low during 2012-2013, so that doesnt count, this is the same logic



Jordan won scoring titles by default, there was no other scorers

[IllegalD]

Using OP's logic, I could argue history tells us that having defensive big men and solid rebounding win championships except:

The 2012 and 2013 Heat, who won with 0 legit big men


So LeBron = GOAT then??


But then OP would argue big men talent was low during 2012-2013, so that doesnt count, this is the same logic



Jordan won scoring titles by default, there was no other scorers

Chris Bosh (10x Allstar PowerForward, future HOF) :confusedshrug:

[Legends66NBA7]

George Mikan is the 4th. Although, it's hard to really predicate if he could do that when the league got better talent overtime. The other 3 are more established players and would thrive in any era for sure.

[outbreak]

You'd never believe this but one time these aliens came to earth, held Michael Jordan hostage and made him play a basketball game. If he lost they would have taken them to their planet for entertainment purposes. He won though.
I once owned a pinball machine based on this event. Not sure why it didn't get mainstream media attention though.

[ClipperRevival]

Using OP's logic, I could argue history tells us that having defensive big men and solid rebounding win championships except:

The 2012 and 2013 Heat, who won with 0 legit big men


So LeBron = GOAT then??


But then OP would argue big men talent was low during 2012-2013, so that doesnt count, this is the same logic



Jordan won scoring titles by default, there was no other scorers

You can draw your own conclusions. I didn't make this thread to boost MJ. MJ just happened to be on the list. But it's an interesting fact. But you obviously being a fan of whoever seem offended by it. If the truth hurts, I am sorry.

[Legends66NBA7]

Also, I think Durant has a good shot at pulling it off. Thunder need to stay healthy.

[Thesmallmamba]

You can draw your own conclusions. I didn't make this thread to boost MJ. MJ just happened to be on the list. But it's an interesting fact. But you obviously being a fan of whoever seem offended by it. If the truth hurts, I am sorry.



if he's a truly transcedent talent like MJ, Shaq or KAJ.




Yup, so not only are your threads biased, but you're also a compulsive liar




Being a fan of MJ its no wonder you share many of the traits he does

[Jacks3]

Make it top 3 in scoring and suddenly you'll see a lot more teams. Seems pretty silly to just make about the scoring champ. In the last 15 years we've had tons of teams win it all with their best player scoring with huge volume.

[ClipperRevival]

Well... who exactly was Jordans scoring rival in the 90's?


The 90's probably had the worst overall scorers in NBA history

Jordan, Malone and then???


Wings lead the league in scoring, and the 90's had 0 wing scoring talent other than Jordan


So him leading the league in scoring doesnt tell us anything

For most of MJ's 6 ring run, that era was considered perhaps the greatest era ever for great big men. You had Drob, Hakeem, Shaq and Ewing all giving you close to 30 ppg. Then you had Nique, Malone, Barkley, Drexler, King, Mullin and Richmond all giving you 25-30 ppg during that time.

[ClipperRevival]

Make it top 3 in scoring and suddenly you'll see a lot more teams. Seems pretty silly to just make about the scoring champ. In the last 15 years we've had tons of teams win it all with their best player scoring with huge volume.

True. If we included top 3 scoring, the list would definitely be much longer.

But it's just an interesting fact. Nothing more, nothing less.

[ClipperRevival]

Yup, so not only are your threads biased, but you're also a compulsive liar




Being a fan of MJ its no wonder you share many of the traits he does

Man, you are taking this hard aren't you? MJ is a transcendent talent there buddy, just like Shaq and KAJ were. That's not disputable.

[Straight_Ballin]

Yup, so not only are your threads biased, but you're also a compulsive liar




Being a fan of MJ its no wonder you share many of the traits he does

And just who the hell are you a fan of? Someone who can't lead the league in scoring and win it all in the same year? GTFO with your tears and go join the pity party with your other loser stans.

[sportjames23]

Well... who exactly was Jordans scoring rival in the 90's?


The 90's probably had the worst overall scorers in NBA history

Jordan, Malone and then???


Wings lead the league in scoring, and the 90's had 0 wing scoring talent other than Jordan


So him leading the league in scoring doesnt tell us anything


This dumb ****er here. dubeta's dumbest alt confirmed.

Let's see, who did MJ compete with for scoring in his prime:

Karl Malone
Dominique Wilkins
Chris Mullin
Patrick Ewing
Clyde Drexler
Larry Bird
Tom Chambers
Charles Barkley
Bernard King
Mitch Richmond

All scorers who'd put today's scorers to shame.

[Thesmallmamba]

> Putting Larry Bird and Wilkins in a list of 90's scorers


:roll:

[Straight_Ballin]

Why can't these kids just accept that the current era is shit in comparison and Bron is shit in comparison to MJ and always will be? Are they that insecure? Oh wait, they are hence the 35,000 post per year across 10+ accounts by the same kid. :lol :lol :lol :lol What a pathetic life.....

someone's parents aren't proud....:lol

[Duffy Pratt]

Of course, your chances to win it soar when you talk about leading in assists. Four guys have done that and won a championship: Cousy, Wilt, West, and Magic.

Rebounding? There have been six: Mikan, Russell, Wilt, Unseld, Moses, and Rodman.

What does all this "prove"? Either nothing, or maybe just that basketball is a team game and no individual stat will predict team success. People used to be fans of teams. Now we have stans instead.

[ClipperRevival]

> Putting Larry Bird and Wilkins in a list of 90's scorers


:roll:

Nique was 2nd in scoring in 1992 with 28.1 and 2nd again in 1993 with 29.9. And he had 25-26 ppg in a couple more in the 90's. But of course, I wouldn't expect you to do any research and know that.

[ClipperRevival]

Of course, your chances to win it soar when you talk about leading in assists. Four guys have done that and won a championship: Cousy, Wilt, West, and Magic.

Rebounding? There have been six: Mikan, Russell, Wilt, Unseld, Moses, and Rodman.

What does all this "prove"? Either nothing, or maybe just that basketball is a team game and no individual stat will predict team success. People used to be fans of teams. Now we have stans instead.

It's an interesting fact. You would think that there were more greats who did both in the same season but it sort of points to the theory that even if you are a dominant scorer and can score more if you pushed the gas, the optimal way to win as a team is to reign it back a tad and get your teammates involved.

The assist thing points to another theory that you shouldn't have a PG who dominates the ball that much. Again, not optimal winning ball.

Rebounding? That's kind of arbitrary I think.

[Straight_Ballin]

Nique was 2nd in scoring in 1992 with 28.1 and 2nd again in 1993 with 29.9. And he had 25-26 ppg in a couple more in the 90's. But of course, I wouldn't expect you to do any research and know that.

Pay no attention to that little turd. This is like his 20th account that is about to be banned. :lol

[sundizz]

This is so insanely stupid. Why would we even consider REGULAR SEASON scoring lol.

For example, last year Steph Curry averaged 29 ppg for the playoffs.

[ClipperRevival]

This topic interested me because I wanted to see how "the man" on a chamionship winning team impacts his teams. Some might think the more this guys scores, the better his team would be. But this fact proves that to win, your alpha dog scorer can't let it loose like he did in his other seasons where he reached career highs in scoring on bad teams. That's why guys like Wilt, MJ, Kobe, Bron, and Wade all peaked as scorers when they weren't winning rings. What this points to is that great scoring is not enough to win titles if you are "the man". You need to find the right balance for your team, sensing what the team needs and giving them scoring when needed but not killing offensive flow. It's a delicate balance.

That's exactly why history is literred with great individual scorers that didn't have much team success. You can argue that some of that is due to lack of help but my point is, winning as "the man" requires not only alpha scoring but finding that right balance.

That's why individual scoring numbers are meaningless without context. How did he get those points? Within the flow of the offense or at the expense of it? Being a dominant scorer is hard, a talent very few have, but the next tier of superstardom is not only alpha dog scoring but the guys who can make his teammates better.

[Straight_Ballin]

This is so insanely stupid. Why would we even consider REGULAR SEASON scoring lol.

For example, last year Steph Curry averaged 29 ppg for the playoffs.

Because other than 3 players, no other player in the history of the game has shown us that if you lead the league in scoring that you will win it all.

Players like Jordan are on a whole different level of GOAT teir. That's why he's done it 6 fvcking times and the only other players to do it did just once each. That ONLY leaves every other reg season scoring leader in the history of the game to not accomplish this impressive feat. Based on the numbers, why would you expect the reg season scoring leader to win it all?

[ClipperRevival]

Also, I think Durant has a good shot at pulling it off. Thunder need to stay healthy.

Agreed, KD is the type of transcendent talent that has a shot.

[Straight_Ballin]

Agreed, KD is the type of transcendent talent that has a shot.

I agree with this also. KD has a shot but it's going to be a long road.

[iamgine]

Only 3 players have won a title as "the man" while leading the league in scoring.

Shaq - 2000
Jordan - 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998
KAJ - 1971

This proves that when your star is scoring that much, the optimal offensive balance to win is skewed and one player is carrying too much of a burden. So this upcoming season, whoever is leading the league in scoring, that player's team won't win a ring unless if he's a truly transcedent talent like MJ, Shaq or KAJ.
Too simplistic logic.

MJ, Shaq and KAJ all had a contending team behind them.

How many other scoring leaders had that?

[Dragonyeuw]

Well... who exactly was Jordans scoring rival in the 90's?


The 90's probably had the worst overall scorers in NBA history

Jordan, Malone and then???


Wings lead the league in scoring, and the 90's had 0 wing scoring talent other than Jordan


So him leading the league in scoring doesnt tell us anything

Asides from the fact that this is blatantly false( Nique, Drexler, Richmond, Rice, Mullin, Nique, Hill, Penny), what difference does it make whether they were wing scorers or otherwise? In addition to MJ and Malone, you had David Robinson, Barkley, Shaq, Ewing, Hakeem. Some of the greatest scorers in NBA history and the 90's have the worst overall scorers? WTF?! No, the wing scorers were up to the Lebrons/Kobes/Durants/Tmacs/Wades etc, but the big-men were 100 times better, and MJ was dominant in a big-man league. Nowadays, perimeter stars are leading teams to titles in a perimeter-oriented league.

[Mr Feeny]

You'd never believe this but one time these aliens came to earth, held Michael Jordan hostage and made him play a basketball game. If he lost they would have taken them to their planet for entertainment purposes. He won though.

Vid or it didn't happen....

[Paul George 24]

Agreed, KD is the type of transcendent talent that has a shot.
kd would not will

[Nuff Said]

It's an interesting fact. You would think that there were more greats who did both in the same season but it sort of points to the theory that even if you are a dominant scorer and can score more if you pushed the gas, the optimal way to win as a team is to reign it back a tad and get your teammates involved.

The assist thing points to another theory that you shouldn't have a PG who dominates the ball that much. Again, not optimal winning ball.

Rebounding? That's kind of arbitrary I think.
i think it's just a small sample...the chances of that one player winning a title are slim just due to the number of scorers...this also doesn't account for how well the team is, you can be a great scorer on a great team (mj) or you can be a good scorer on a bad team...both players being great scorers and playing the game the same exact way, the difference is just the team.

[OnFire]

Malone scored the most points in the 90's.

Malone 21,370
Jordan 18,014
Ewing 16,914
Robinson 16,715
Richmond 16,613
Olajuwan 16,484
Miller 16,319
Rice 15,371
Barkley 14,852
Pippen 14,040

Difference in Malone and Jordan bigger than Jordan to Barkley.

Maybe Jordan is an outlier because his team also had #10 scorer.

[La Frescobaldi]

Too simplistic logic.

MJ, Shaq and KAJ all had a contending team behind them.

How many other scoring leaders had that?

strangely I agree with both you guys lol

they had to have great teams, built to order

[Dr Hawk]

Jordan the GOAT :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[DCL]

critics: there's no "I" in "TEAM!"

jordan: but there is in "WIN!"

[Papaya Petee]

Lets look at postseason leading scorers, regular season means nothing come playoff time.

2001 Lakers - Shaq and Kobe finished 4th and 5th in postseason PPG. If you exclude Reggie and TMac (both got swept first round) then they finish only behind Iverson, who shot 38.9% that postseason...

2002 Lakers - Shaq finishes 3rd in postseason PPG at 28.5 a game behind TMac and AI. TMac got swept first round, AI lost in 5.

2003 Spurs- Duncan finished 7th in postseason PPG. A very balanced team

2004 Pistons- Hamilton finishes 5th in postseason PPG. A very balanced team

2005- Duncan finished 9th in postseason PPG, very balanced team.

2006- Wade finishes 4th in postseason PPG at 28.4 PPG

2007- Duncan finishes 13th in postseason PPG. Very balanced team

2008- Garnett finishes 14th in postseason PPG. Very balanced team

2009- Kobe finishes 2nd in postseason PPG at 30.2

2010- Kobe finishes 3rd in postseason PPG at 29.2. Leader Wade and 2nd finisher Melo lose in first round

2011- Dirk finishes 2nd in postseason PPG at 27.7

2012- Lebron leads postseason PPG at 30.3 :cheers:

2013- Lebron finishes 4th at 25.9 PPG

2014- Tony Parker finishes 26th at 17.4 PPG

2015- Curry finishes 3rd with 28.3 PPG. Leader Davis gets swept first round.


My conclusion- aside from the well rounded powerhouses (Pistons 04, Spurs, 08 Celtics) every team needed dominant scorers in postseason. Only one to actually lead the postseason in points and win the title was Lebron in 2012. A lot of 2nd-5th place finishers. Take what you want from this.

[ClipperRevival]

Bump for the people questioning MJ's impact.

[Legends66NBA7]

Also, I think Durant has a good shot at pulling it off. Thunder need to stay healthy.

And I would like to add Steph Curry, who also has a pretty good chance too if he continues to play like he has.

[DoctorP]

Using OP's logic, I could argue history tells us that having defensive big men and solid rebounding win championships except:

The 2012 and 2013 Heat, who won with 0 legit big men


So LeBron = GOAT then??


But then OP would argue big men talent was low during 2012-2013, so that doesnt count, this is the same logic



Jordan won scoring titles by default, there was no other scorers


Complete bullshit. Delusional.

[ClipperRevival]

And I would like to add Steph Curry, who also has a pretty good chance too if he continues to play like he has.

Yup, Curry has a chance to get on this ultra exclusive list this year. Let's see what happens.

[I<3NBA]

if your star is leading the league in scoring, then that means your team isn't helping him enough to lower his load. easier to stop one star than an entire team.

[La Frescobaldi]

For most of MJ's 6 ring run, that era was considered perhaps the greatest era ever for great big men. You had Drob, Hakeem, Shaq and Ewing all giving you close to 30 ppg. Then you had Nique, Malone, Barkley, Drexler, King, Mullin and Richmond all giving you 25-30 ppg during that time.

Actually the greatest era ever for great big men was early '70s.
Which is exactly when Jabbar had his great run with the Bucks.

That year he had to go through Dave Cowens, Nate Thurmond, Wilt Chamberlain, Willis Reed, Wes Unseld, Walt Bellamy,Bob Lanier, Elvin Hayes, Spencer Haywood (who was an outstanding 4 but almost always bodied Jabbar anyhow because their centers were all injured mostly).

Each on their own team, in a 17 team league.

Is every single one of those guys a Top 50 player? Maybe not Hall of Famer Haywood, but then he is the only 4 on that list.

Jabbar's run of 1971 was one of the all time greatest feats in NBA history - a far harder playoff run than any the 90s Bulls faced - especially when you look right up close at just who was guarding who.
Jordan certainly never faced that caliber of player night after night during any of his runs. When he did, in the 80s, he got smoked endlessly.

[ClipperRevival]

if your star is leading the league in scoring, then that means your team isn't helping him enough to lower his load. easier to stop one star than an entire team.

Exactly!

That's why most great players had their best scoring seasons on somewhat bad teams or non-contending teams. That's why this has been done only by truly transcedent talents (MJ, Shaq, KAJ, Mikan). It means their scoring was still not hindering the team (Wilt) and the style of play was still optimal, championship caliber bball. It's another measure to true dominance.

[ClipperRevival]

This is so insanely stupid. Why would we even consider REGULAR SEASON scoring lol.

For example, last year Steph Curry averaged 29 ppg for the playoffs.

MJ led playoff scoring all 6 seasons too. So did Shaq in 2000 although KAJ didn't.

[FireDavidKahn]

It doesn't prove shit.

All you proved is that winning a title is hard.

[Dray n Klay]

Imo leading your team in points, rebounds, assists >> leading the league in playoff scoring





If you have to lead your team in point rebounds and assists it literally means you have no help.



Meanwhile you can lead the league in scoring, but have tremendous help in terms of playmakers, rebounders, defenders

[Dray n Klay]

OPs argument is VERY arbitrary




For example, I can easily argue only truly transcendent talents like LeBron, Bird, Duncan, Hakeem could lead their teams in the playoffs in points, rebounds, and assists

:confusedshrug:

[Young X]

This isn't the right way to look at it.

It's not the player hurting the team, it's the situation.

A player scoring that many points is probably due to the team not having enough offensively to win a title.

The star playing more "optimally" would've probably resulted in the team doing even worse.

[ClipperRevival]

OPs argument is VERY arbitrary




For example, I can easily argue only truly transcendent talents like LeBron, Bird, Duncan, Hakeem could lead their teams in the playoffs in points, rebounds, and assists

:confusedshrug:

Alpha dog scoring in the playoffs, against higher intensity, higher physicality, with a slow downed pace against mostly set defenses in half court sets is the single greatest premium in all of bball. Nothing is harder to consistently do. You should know there Bron fan after the finals and seeing Kyrie/Bron go off offensively.

And there is absolutely nothing arbitrary about my thread. It's a very simple criteria. I didn't nitpick anything.

[ClipperRevival]

This isn't the right way to look at it.

It's not the player hurting the team, it's the situation.

A player scoring that many points is probably due to the team not having enough offensively to win a title.

The star playing more "optimally" would've probably resulted in the team doing even worse.

Yeah, I've exchanged with you several times about this and I just don't agree with you. There is a right way and wrong way to play the game. For example, Kobe in 2006 and 2007 didn't play the right way. He knew he had a bad team so he decided to get his at the expense of the team. Ditto for other great scorers like Melo, Dantley, McGrady, etc. Sometimes a player's natural style of scoring isn't optimal. Clearly, if you lead the league in scoring and win a title, you were playing the right way.

When Kobe won as "the man", he had to reign back his shots because it wasn't optimal.

[Round Mound]

Lebron just one his 3rd ring as the main scorer (and lead in most categories aswell) :confusedshrug: . Championships are not won by a 1 man crew or just a top scorer. Jordan had Pippen, the best sf of the 90s, All-Defensive 1st Teamer in both He and Grant and then had A Top Rebounder and also a Before All Defense 1st Teamer in Rodman.

BTW: Great scoreres score at a high FG% (relative to position ofcourse). Its not a matter of who scored the most points but how they where scored relative to every attempt taken.

[plowking]

LeBron just won a championship leading every stat.

He did it way harder than Jordan. Thanks for the explanation OP.

[Young X]

Yeah, I've exchanged with you several times about this and I just don't agree with you. There is a right way and wrong way to play the game. For example, Kobe in 2006 and 2007 didn't play the right way. He knew he had a bad team so he decided to get his at the expense of the team. Ditto for other great scorers like Melo, Dantley, McGrady, etc. Sometimes a player's natural style of scoring isn't optimal. Clearly, if you lead the league in scoring and win a title, you were playing the right way.

When Kobe won as "the man", he had to reign back his shots because it wasn't optimal.When Kobe won as "the man", he reigned back his shots because he had more talent around him.

If Pau Gasol had gotten traded to the Lakers in 2006 do you think Kobe would still have played the same way?

No, he played that way because he didn't have anybody that could pick up the slack at the time.

[ClipperRevival]

When Kobe won as "the man", he reigned back his shots because he had more talent around him.

If Pau Gasol had gotten traded to the Lakers in 2006 do you think Kobe would still have played the same way?

No, he played that way because he didn't have anybody that could pick up the slack at the time.

Exactly!

Which PROVES my point. When competing for titles, it's usually not optimal to carry such a large offensive burden. And for the few who did, that's special because they were the exception and not the rule.

[Ben Simmons]

Exactly!

Which PROVES my point. When competing for titles, it's usually not optimal to carry such a large offensive burden. And for the few who did, that's special because they were the exception and not the rule.
It doesnt prove your point though, what Young X is basically saying is Kobe carried those as far or farther than they should have gotten. If he scored less they would have won less. Thus he played optimally.

[ClipperRevival]

It doesnt prove your point though, what Young X is basically saying is Kobe carried those as far or farther than they should have gotten. If he scored less they would have won less. Thus he played optimally.

Nope. Bball is a TEAM game. When your star has a single minded goal of getting yours at the EXPENSE of the offense instead of within the FLOW of the offense, you'll always be a bad team. Sure, on some nights they needed him to go off but he could've made a better effort to play more optimal ball and make his teammates better.

[Mr Feeny]

It doesnt prove your point though, what Young X is basically saying is Kobe carried those as far or farther than they should have gotten. If he scored less they would have won less. Thus he played optimally.

That's not what he said. And if it was, he's dead wrong. As ClipperRevival said, jacking up an obscene number of shots doesn't help the team.
LeBron, in the same period, had ane even worse team and managed to get further. In 2007? He lead a bunch of scrubs thay included the likes of Boobie Gibson to the finals, knocking off perennial contenders The Detroit Pistons, in the process.
And he didn't do it by jacking 20 more shots than anyone else. The optimal way to play was to contribute all around and that's what he did.

OP's point stands as well. Very rarely does a player be the top scorer and win the title. MJ did it 6 times and Shaq and kareem once each.

[Smoke117]

I didn't make this thread to boost MJ.

Sure you didn't. :rolleyes:

[Spurs5Rings2014]

2003 Spurs- Duncan finished 7th in postseason PPG. A very balanced team

:wtf:

In the 2003 finals, Duncan put up 24/17/5/1/5. Next highest of EACH stat on his team... 14/7/4/1/2.

:lol


Imo leading your team in points, rebounds, assists >> leading the league in playoff scoring





If you have to lead your team in point rebounds and assists it literally means you have no help.



Meanwhile you can lead the league in scoring, but have tremendous help in terms of playmakers, rebounders, defenders

:applause:


OPs argument is VERY arbitrary




For example, I can easily argue only truly transcendent talents like LeBron, Bird, Duncan, Hakeem could lead their teams in the playoffs in points, rebounds, and assists

:confusedshrug:

:bowdown: