James Harden vs Jason Kidd: Who are you taking?

[IGOTGAME]

Who ya got?

[iTare]

Mostly depends on what kind of team I have to surround them.
But in this day and age i'd take a 3 point shooter and rim attacker like James over a prime J-kidd who is a facilitator that can score at times.

[GIF REACTION]

James Harden

[Gileraracer]

The triple double machine

[GIF REACTION]

Harden just has more on offer

Kidd is rather limited....

Kidd is no slouch though.... A better, bigger version of Rondo, with an actual 3pt shot

[Just2McFly]

Jason Kidd.

End of story

[TrueBlue89]

Harden easily. He's going to be the 3rd best SG of all time come the end of his career.

[GIF REACTION]

What Harden did last season was amazing, and what Kidd did in the early 2's was amazing

I'll take Harden's 27 and 7 assists though

[IGOTGAME]

Harden easily. He's going to be the 3rd best SG of all time come the end of his career.


This is absurd

[Achilleas]

defence,kidd

[Uncle Drew]

Mostly depends on what kind of team I have to surround them.
But in this day and age i'd take a 3 point shooter and rim attacker like James over a prime J-kidd who is a facilitator that can score at times.
Kidd has the 5th most 3 pointers made in the history of the game though.

[SHAQisGOAT]

In terms of prime/peak it's pretty close, and it depends on what you need, but in a vacuum gimme J-Kidd...

Kidd's a better defensive player, a better passer/playmaker and a better rebounder - and there are NO questions about it when it comes to those areas.

Jason could score with his size and post-game, and with his ball-handling and driving, plus he always improved as a shooter... But Harden's CLEARLY a better, more impactful scorer.

Let's not forget that Kidd was all-nba 1st, all-defensive 1st and 2nd in MVP voting in 2002... And around that time he lead his team to the Finals twice, in a weak Conference but not much of a team anyways...

Imo, Kidd definitely also brought along better overall intangibles.

When you consider everything, Kidd's considerably above on the all-time list...

[Uncle Drew]

At this point, I'd take Kidd without hesitation. Harden hasn't exactly done anything special in his career thus far, playoff wise. Even in his self-proclaimed MVP season, his team was kept a live with him on the bench, and he had a record for turnovers in an elimination game against the Warriors. Turned ghost in the '11 finals too, which I'm not too hard on, since he was still very young.

[Fallen Angel]

Both Kidd and Harden are great floor generals. If I want someone to be the best player on my team I'd take Harden because he scores the ball for my team when it is needed.

Realistically, replacing Jason Kidd with James Harden on last year's team would make the Rockets worse.

[IGOTGAME]

Both Kidd and Harden are great floor generals. If I want someone to be the best player on my team I'd take Harden because he scores the ball for my team when it is needed.

Realistically, replacing Jason Kidd with James Harden on last year's team would make the Rockets worse.

Lol at comparing them as floor generals. You have lost all cred on this

[scandisk_]

Lol at comparing them as floor generals. You have lost all cred on this

http://3.imimg.com/data3/TT/YG/MY-3438023/floor-cleaner-250x250.jpg

[gasolina]

Are we talking about prime Kidd? His lack of a 3 really hurts in today's game. That being said, prime Kidd never needed a 3pt shot since he was always attacking the rim.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Both Kidd and Harden are great floor generals. If I want someone to be the best player on my team I'd take Harden because he scores the ball for my team when it is needed.

Realistically, replacing Jason Kidd with James Harden on last year's team would make the Rockets worse.

Are you saying they're equals as floor generals? You must be kidding me...

Yea, it all boils down to scoring :rolleyes: Guess if I name some of the best scorers (even volume scorers) throughout history you'd take them ALL over J-Kidd no questions asked, huh?

Who really knows though? :confusedshrug: That team was built around Harden though and we DO KNOW that Kidd was once 2nd in MVP voting in a league with prime Shaq, prime Duncan, prime KG, prime Kobe, prime Iverson, prime T-Mac... We DO KNOW that he lead his team to the Finals twice (in a weak Conference but not much of a team anyways, like I've said)... And everybody should at least know that Kidd's definitely a better defensive player, passer and rebounder, while bringing higher overall intangibles(at least to me)...

[SHAQisGOAT]

Are we talking about prime Kidd? His lack of a 3 really hurts in today's game. That being said, prime Kidd never needed a 3pt shot since he was always attacking the rim.

From 2001-02 until 2002-03 he shot 33.1% on 4.5 attempts from 3pt-land... I think that "lack of" is too strong here. He was also shooting 83% from the FT-line in those years.

[Fallen Angel]

Being a floor general is more than statpadding assists. Harden controlled the floor for the Houston Rockets with his scoring and playmaking to the tune of 50+ wins.

Both players control the floor with their respective style of play. If you want to debate who's the more talented and willing passer then you can say Jason Kidd.

In terms of who would you rather have as a floor general, it depends on what kind of team is surrounding the respective players. Like you said, that Rockets' style of play catered to James Harden, but don't discredit him for that and ignore he played without his starting PG, C, and backup PF for a large chunk of the season.

[IGOTGAME]

Being a floor general is more than statpadding assists. Harden controlled the floor for the Houston Rockets with his scoring and playmaking to the tune of 50+ wins.

Both players control the floor with their respective style of play. If you want to debate who's the more talented and willing passer then you can say Jason Kidd.

In terms of who would you rather have as a floor general, it depends on what kind of team is surrounding the respective players. Like you said, that Rockets' style of play catered to James Harden, but don't discredit him for that and ignore he played without his starting PG, C, and backup PF for a large chunk of the season.

You legit have no idea what you're talking. Absolutely none.

[Fallen Angel]

Thanks for the feedback

[iTare]

That's why this idiot is on my ignore list, everyone should do the same.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Harden is a highly skilled SG with court vision and passing ability good enough for a pg. Not on par with Kidd as a pg of course, but great for a 2. Both guys are good enough at what they do to be the basis of a team's offense. Prime vs. prime I take Harden because it's a little easier to compliment his game. Remember that at his peak Kidd was not a good shooter, that's something that wasn't developed until he played with the Mavericks. In Jersey he shot low-40s overall and low-30s from three. So the shooting that created floor spacing had to come from everyone else. Harden on the other hand is a good shooter and as an added benefit his passing and vision make it so that his team doesn't have to play a traditional point guard if they can't get one.

Kidd does have a major edge as a defender but I'm viewing them as franchise players and to me it's less important when talking about guards because very few guards can take a game over with their d. I don't view Kidd as one of those select few, although he was a good defender and far ahead of Harden defensively.

[TrueBlue89]

This is absurd
How so?

[Fallen Angel]

What's the point of making a thread if you're gonna bitch at everyone's opinion that isn't the same as yours.

There was a conversation on this topic already going on so there wasn't even a reason to make this thread.

[feyki]

Too early for Harden.

Kidd .

[Sarcastic]

What's the point of making a thread if you're gonna bitch at everyone's opinion that isn't the same as yours.

There was a conversation on this topic already going on so there wasn't even a reason to make this thread.

You can say you'd rather have Harden, which is fine, but you lose all credibility when you say they are equal floor generals. Say you want Harden because he can get to the line better or is a better flopper. That at least is the truth.

[IGOTGAME]

How so?


He is not anywhere near a top 3 sg of all time. Wade and Jerry West were a lot better.

[greatest-ever]

Harden last season was clearly better than Kidd ever was, but for careers it Kidd by a large margin for now.

[Rocketswin2013]

Harden. Whether people like it or not Harden is that good.

[greatest-ever]

Harden easily. He's going to be the 3rd best SG of all time come the end of his career.
Well, he won't pass Kobe or Jerry West so we can put this to rest right away unless you consider West a point guard. So that leave Wade and Drexler he'd have to surpass. Passing Wade is a real long shot, up to this point in time Wade still has 3 or 4 seasons better than anything from Harden, he has 3 rings, one of those as the man with a dominant run + FMVP, a 2nd ring as a solid 2nd option, multiple all star selections, an arguable a top 15 all time peak in 2009. So yeah, that's a pretty tall order for Harden to fill, it's not out of the question, but unlikely I'd say. As for Drexler? Yeah, i can probably see that, i think he already peaked higher so at this point he just needs longevity.

[gasolina]

From 2001-02 until 2002-03 he shot 33.1% on 4.5 attempts from 3pt-land... I think that "lack of" is too strong here. He was also shooting 83% from the FT-line in those years.
Yeah but nowhere near what we consider as average nowadays.

My point was that Kidd didn't really need the three because he was strong enough to just overpower players and find himself in the lane. Prime Kidd was always the focal point of the offense, even if he shot terribly.

I remember those first years in Dallas. While they didn't win, goes to show how Kidd could've played and thrived along other natural scorers.

Definitely Kidd for me. I was on the fence earlier but you just can't discount how much of a winner Jason is

[Fallen Angel]

Where exactly did I say James Harden and Jason Kidd are equal floor generals? Please show me where.

[Bless Mathews]

Kidd and it's not even close.

[ralph_i_el]

Yo.....what if you had Harden AND Kidd. Goat passing backcourt, raining fire from deep :eek:

[RidonKs]

kidd and not close

i'll reserve like 5% doubt in case harden stops isolating... now is his chance with all the slashing talent on that team

i can't see james harden aging very well. his work ethic is lacking.

[warriorfan]

if you like stats harden

if you like to win kidd

[ralph_i_el]

if you like stats harden

if you like to win kidd

Harden is 25 and has played in 72 playoff games, starting 29

When Kidd was 25, he had played in 12 playoff games, losing in the first round each time. Though age 25, Harden is averaging ~12 ppg more as a starter in the playoffs compared to Kidd.


And I'm still taking Kidd for the career. Give Harden some credit though. Kidd didn't start really winning until his prime.

[JellyBean]

James Harden.

[GrapeApe]

Well, he won't pass Kobe or Jerry West so we can put this to rest right away unless you consider West a point guard. So that leave Wade and Drexler he'd have to surpass. Passing Wade is a real long shot, up to this point in time Wade still has 3 or 4 seasons better than anything from Harden, he has 3 rings, one of those as the man with a dominant run + FMVP, a 2nd ring as a solid 2nd option, multiple all star selections, an arguable a top 15 all time peak in 2009. So yeah, that's a pretty tall order for Harden to fill, it's not out of the question, but unlikely I'd say. As for Drexler? Yeah, i can probably see that, i think he already peaked higher so at this point he just needs longevity.

How has Harden peaked higher than Drexler? Peak Drexler was 27/8/6/3 on 50% and was a better defender. He also led his team to the finals twice. His 1992 playoff run (26/7/7/1.5/1.0 on 47% and a finals appearance) is better than any playoff run Harden has ever had.

[bobopenguin]

Both Kidd and Harden are great floor generals. If I want someone to be the best player on my team I'd take Harden because he scores the ball for my team when it is needed.

Realistically, replacing Jason Kidd with James Harden on last year's team would make the Rockets worse.

jeez dude.. wtf? harden is a floor general from bench where his team doesnt needs him?

harden is a weapon not a floor general.

[masonanddixon]

harden has serious issues with postseason play as he is very easily gameplanned for. He has always struggled in the postseason.

Kidd's never be a 1st or 2nd option.

Depends on what you want. Harden only does one thing (scoring), Kidd does a lot of things but he can't put the ball through the hoop.

[plowking]

This is absurd

Saying he'll "easily" be the 3rd best is absurd.

However, dismissing the notion he could end up the 3rd best is just as absurd. He led his team to the conference finals and put up some all time great numbers from the SG position, at insane efficiency. At the end of the day, he is a shooting guard who will give you 26-27ppg on insane efficiency, something to the tune of 60%+ TS%, and also dish out 7 assists.
How many SG's can lay claim to that kind of production in history. All the while leading a pretty poor roster, with their second best player injured for a large chunk, to one of the top seeds in a stacked conference?

Just for perspectives sake, Harden put up 27/6/7 last year on insane offensive efficiency, while leading his team to 56 wins. These are Bron type numbers in Miami. All while producing a comparable number of wins, in a tougher conference, and a far worse team. Does that not speak for something.

I'd take him in a heartbeat over J Kidd. At the end of the day, for all his positives, taking as many shots as he did, while shooting so poorly (at times in the high 30's percentage wise) will always hurt your team.

[plowking]

jeez dude.. wtf? harden is a floor general from bench where his team doesnt needs him?

harden is a weapon not a floor general.

He is a good floor general. Clearly not in the realm of Kidd or Nash, but he is a good game manager.

[masonanddixon]

Saying he'll "easily" be the 3rd best is absurd.

However, dismissing the notion he could end up the 3rd best is just as absurd. He led his team to the conference finals and put up some all time great numbers from the SG position, at insane efficiency. At the end of the day, he is a shooting guard who will give you 26-27ppg on insane efficiency, something to the tune of 60%+ TS%, and also dish out 7 assists.
How many SG's can lay claim to that kind of production in history. All the while leading a pretty poor roster, with their second best player injured for a large chunk, to one of the top seeds in a stacked conference?

Just for perspectives sake, Harden put up 27/6/7 last year on insane offensive efficiency, while leading his team to 56 wins. These are Bron type numbers in Miami. All while producing a comparable number of wins, in a tougher conference, and a far worse team. Does that not speak for something.

I'd take him in a heartbeat over J Kidd. At the end of the day, for all his positives, taking as many shots as he did, while shooting so poorly (at times in the high 30's percentage wise) will always hurt your team.

lol he had one of the most well rounded supporting casts in the NBA last season and his postseason troubles cannot simply be ignored. He seriously struggles in the postseason.

He has no in between game. He's taking advantage of the rules in a very, very weak era in the NBA and he has never been impressive in the postseason.

[IGOTGAME]

He is a good floor general. Clearly not in the realm of Kidd or Nash, but he is a good game manager.

What happens to Harden in the playoffs doesn't happen to good floor generals or game managers.

Also...there have been shooting guards, several, within better years then Harden.

[Fallen Angel]

you're right

averaging 27/7/6 on 62 TS% in the postseason doesn't happen to good floor generals or game managers

it happens to great floor generals or game managers.

[Fallen Angel]

http://bkref.com/tiny/ZO1oN

[IGOTGAME]

you're right

averaging 27/7/6 on 62 TS% in the postseason doesn't happen to good floor generals or game managers

it happens to great floor generals or game managers.

Do you have any idea what a floor general is? Do you know anything about the game except for what you pull from basketball reference?

Your comparing Harden to one of the greatest floor generals to ever touch a basketball. Someone who ha shown the ability and leadership to handle any set of personnel and any type of offense. Guy was a savant

Just saw your link. Are you saying that James Hardens season was better than every season not listed. If so, you are dumber than I thought.

[TrueBlue89]

lol he had one of the most well rounded supporting casts in the NBA last season and his postseason troubles cannot simply be ignored. He seriously struggles in the postseason.

He has no in between game. He's taking advantage of the rules in a very, very weak era in the NBA and he has never been impressive in the postseason.
What the **** are you talking about? Harden balled out throughout the damn playoffs you moron. Yeah he had a few stinkers but so did Curry and LeBron.

Carrying a short-handed Rockets team to the WCF despite being the only shot-creator on the team was special. This is a team several people did not expect to make the playoffs. :biggums:

[Dragonyeuw]

Harden easily. He's going to be the 3rd best SG of all time come the end of his career.


:biggums:

As to the question, depends on team needs since they feel completely different niches. That said, Harden's style is tailormade for this era.

[Fallen Angel]

I don't know what else to do to you. Right now, it just feels like I'm feeding a troll that's begging for a reaction. I'm bringing statistical proof of James Harden's ability in the postseason and explaining in depth why James Harden is a great floor general. You keep responding like a basic ISH troll with nothing informative to retaliate with.

How about this, tell me why James Harden isn't a great floor general. Tell me how he doesn't control the pace for his team. Tell me how he doesn't single-handedly direct the offense of a 50+ win team in the Western Conference. Tell me how Harden isn't the leader of his team offensively.

[GIF REACTION]

Harden doesn't get as many assists as Kidd, because he scores 10-15 more points than him

[SHAQisGOAT]

Kidd is one of the GOAT floor-generals and nikkas saying he was padding assists (which doesn't even connect to being a floor-general), or that Harden was very close to his level at it? :biggums:

And Harden's TS% got to be taken with a grain of salt... Dude wouldn't get as many FT's in previous eras... He's very good at drawing fouls but not THAT good...

[IGOTGAME]

I don't know what else to do to you. Right now, it just feels like I'm feeding a troll that's begging for a reaction. I'm bringing statistical proof of James Harden's ability in the postseason and explaining in depth why James Harden is a great floor general. You keep responding like a basic ISH troll with nothing informative to retaliate with.

How about this, tell me why James Harden isn't a great floor general. Tell me how he doesn't control the pace for his team. Tell me how he doesn't single-handedly direct the offense of a 50+ win team in the Western Conference. Tell me how Harden isn't the leader of his team offensively.

It's simple. You don't understand what a floor general is...that is what is happening. It's not a bout points rebounds and assists. Great floor generals control tempo, go to the right guy at the right time, prioritize certain match ups, are able to run multiple offenses and are an extension of the coach on the floor. Their are thinking ahead and playing chess to others checkers.

Mark Jackson was a better floor general than James Harden but not a better player.

[GIF REACTION]

Is Floor General a term we just tack on for guys who can't do much outside of passing the ball?

[SugarHill]

Don't sleep on Harden playing in a an alltime crazy conference whereas Kidd was doing it in an alltime terrible conference. Kidd also had better teammates who didn't get injured during his best years

[GIF REACTION]

The core ingredient to good offense is causing a defense to lose structure AKA ability to cause rotations/switches/double teams

This is why talent is the number 1 factor in success

James Harden is a scoring machine, and that ability breaks down defenses, causes rotations, double teams, open shots...

Kidd isn't nearly on the same level of talent and ability.

You need to surround Kidd with talent

James Harden is the talent

[SugarHill]

The core ingredient to good offense is causing a defense to lose structure AKA ability to cause rotations/switches/double teams

This is why talent is the number 1 factor in success

James Harden is a scoring machine, and that ability breaks down defenses, causes rotations, double teams, open shots...

Kidd isn't nearly on the same level of talent and ability.

You need to surround Kidd with talent

James Harden is the talent

Then how come he already has an elite C and every year, the franchise is trying their hardest to acquire another star player to form a big 3?

[GIF REACTION]

Then how come he already has an elite C and every year, the franchise is trying their hardest to acquire another star player to form a big 3?
Because more talent is better

Obviously moe

[GIF REACTION]

The basis of this thread is individual comparison of Harden and Kidd, who do you take?

Assuming it is to start a team, I'd take Harden 10/10 times, not knowing what other players would be on the team.

[SugarHill]

Because more talent is better

Obviously moe
didn't role players save his playoffs while he was on the bench? he was providing that bench influence :applause:

[GIF REACTION]

You can pick out small things about every player in history, that makes them look bad

The fact is Harden led an undermanned Houston team to 2nd seed in the deepest conference of all time arguably

Also led a very average Houston team to the playoffs in 2013 in a very deep west

There is no doubt about Harden's talent

[IGOTGAME]

Then how come he already has an elite C and every year, the franchise is trying their hardest to acquire another star player to form a big 3?

This. If prime Kobe had the teams Harden had he would have been expected to win a ring. I was Harden's biggest guy on this board when he got traded from OKC and people thought he wasn't a star. Now people have over adjusted.

People are actually saying they think he has a chance to surpass Wade or Jerry West all time? What could the argument even be? Guess he could surpass Kobe too? even Clyde?

[bobopenguin]

What the **** are you talking about? Harden balled out throughout the damn playoffs you moron. Yeah he had a few stinkers but so did Curry and LeBron.

Carrying a short-handed Rockets team to the WCF despite being the only shot-creator on the team was special. This is a team several people did not expect to make the playoffs. :biggums:

Stop saying harden carried rockets during playoff to wcf. It wasn't harden, it was Howard who carried rockets. Harden carried rockets during regular season.

[thefatmiral]

Harden has the talent to be better then kidd. But considering post season play. I'll take kidd

[VengefulAngel]

Harden easily. He's going to be the 3rd best SG of all time come the end of his career.

Jerry West
Dwyane Wade
Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant

Name one of those he's better than...

[GrapeApe]

Jerry West
Dwyane Wade
Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant

Name one of those he's better than...

He's not better than any of them, and he has next to no shot of surpassing any of them. By the same age, all of those players had reached a higher level of play than current Harden. Another thing those guys have in common that will likely never apply to Harden is they were great 2-way players. You're not going to be in the same conversation with those players unless you're great on both sides of the ball.

[k0kakw0rld]

Kidd and it's not even close\.

[TrueBlue89]

Jerry West
Dwyane Wade
Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant

Name one of those he's better than...
in 5 years both Wade and West.

[k0kakw0rld]

The basis of this thread is individual comparison of Harden and Kidd, who do you take?

Assuming it is to start a team, I'd take Harden 10/10 times, not knowing what other players would be on the team.
First let me say this. I'll take Prime Kidd over any PG in the history of the league. :pimp:

No matter how deadly his stepback j looks I will take Kidd over Harden anyday of the week.

[GrapeApe]

in 5 years both Wade and West.

So in the next 5 years you'r predicting Harden to have multiple historically great regular seasons, multiple historically great playoff runs, be named to multiple all-defense teams, win multiple scoring titles, win multiple championships, and win multiple FMVP's? That's what it would take for Harden to have a chance to pass Wade and West.

I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that won't happen.

[Just2McFly]

Plowking, i love you, but this kidd hate has to stop bruh

[sportjames23]

Harden easily. He's going to be the 3rd best SG of all time come the end of his career.

This is madness.

[sportjames23]

How has Harden peaked higher than Drexler? Peak Drexler was 27/8/6/3 on 50% and was a better defender. He also led his team to the finals twice. His 1992 playoff run (26/7/7/1.5/1.0 on 47% and a finals appearance) is better than any playoff run Harden has ever had.

This. The disrespect Drexler gets at ISH is ridiculous.

[Thesmallmamba]

This. The disrespect Drexler gets at ISH is ridiculous.

Harden, Drexler, and West will end up the top 3 SGs of all time

[sportjames23]

Harden, Drexler, and West will end up the top 3 SGs of all time


Get off my internets with that bullshit.

[GrapeApe]

Harden, Drexler, and West will end up the top 3 SGs of all time

Drexler and West are two promising young players so anything's possible.

[houston]

kidd of course

[Fallen Angel]

Looking back with James Harden I forgot he led the Houston Rockets to 45 wins at the age of 23 in 2013 during his first season as a regular starter. Fast forward to two seasons later and he bumps that mark up by 11 wins while making a WCF appearance.

Nobody would have thought that James Harden would give a team that type of production back when he was a reserve for the Oklahoma City Thunder.

Nice to see people still not believing in him.

[bobopenguin]

Looking back with James Harden I forgot he led the Houston Rockets to 45 wins at the age of 23 in 2013 during his first season as a regular starter. Fast forward to two seasons later and he bumps that mark up by 11 wins while making a WCF appearance.

Nobody would have thought that James Harden would give a team that type of production back when he was a reserve for the Oklahoma City Thunder.

Nice to see people still not believing in him.

u also forgot to mention how he sat on the bench when ur benches turned the table around. this shows he is actually not 100% irreplaceable.

He's clutch, he's a force, he's a weapon, but he's not the same level as top tier guys.u can put him on the same level as kidd, but he's not the same level as bron, KD, kobe, or anthony davis.

[Mr. Jabbar]

A mix of both

http://i.imgur.com/BQoa3bd.jpg

[Goofsta Knicca]

Jason Kidd cuz I hate dat other knicca's beard n haircut.


:coleman: