Per 100 Possessions in Playoffs top scoring wings

[3ball]

.
JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 1.2 oreb.. 9.1 dreb.. 4.8 ast.. 4.1 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 1.5 blk.. 25.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 58.3 ts
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 27.7 fga.. 110 ORtg.. 54.1 ts
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 24.5 fga.. 108 ORtg.. 55.4 ts
.

[plowking]

So you constantly barrage people with posts on here how Bron sucks, and how he can't do anything right, yet here he is, second, to the best player ever, and scoring isn't even his best asset according to you and many people.

It is amazing how much you love talking about him to begin with.

[3ball]

So you constantly barrage people with posts on here how Bron sucks, and how he can't do anything right, yet here he is, second, to the best player ever, and scoring isn't even his best asset according to you and many people.

It is amazing how much you love talking about him to begin with.



Look how far ahead the #1 guy is from everyone else in pts and fga, then consider that guy has the best points-per-possession efficiency too:


JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 32.5 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 26.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 25.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 58.3 ts.. 1.2 oreb.. 9.1 dreb.. 4.8 ast.. 4.1 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 1.5 blk
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 27.7 fga.. 110 ORtg.. 54.1 ts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 24.5 fga.. 108 ORtg.. 55.4 ts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk


Literally, a MASSIVE gap between #1 guy and everyone else.. MJ gave his team the most (pts, fga) of a good thing (superior points-per-possession efficiency).. Plus, the "clutch" category isn't included, but MJ wins that too.
.

[dhsilv]

Scoring....umm ok...

[KobesFinger]

DRtg? And why did you split rebounds? To make Jordan appear better?

[3ball]

Scoring....umm ok...


It's literally dumb to say "it's just scoring" because the gap is THAT BIG - it's amazing an amazing display of superiority.. Everyone else's stats are all bunched up together, while MJ's scoring is all alone, so much higher than everyone else's - and the other guys are supposed to be great players.

More importantly, MJ leads the group by a massive margin in fga and points-per-possession efficiency too.. So he gives his team massive amounts more production at a higher efficiency - he destroys these guys.




DRtg? And why did you split rebounds? To make Jordan appear better?
Offensive rebounds are more important and less replaceable than defensive rebounds.

Also, individual DRtg is based on team DRtg, so it's not useful in player comparisons... i.e. Bird has lower DRtg than Pippen

[GIF REACTION]

Illegal defense though

[3ball]

Illegal defense though
What about it

[KobesFinger]

Offensive rebounds are more important and less replaceable than defensive rebounds.

Also, individual DRtg is based on team DRtg, so it's not useful in player comparisons... i.e. Bird has higher DRtg than Pippen

Less replaceable? You're just making things up now, basically Durant and LeBron both grab more rebounds.

What is ORtg based on?

[dhsilv]

It's literally dumb to say "it's just scoring" because the gap is THAT BIG - it's amazing an amazing display of superiority.. Everyone else's stats are all bunched up together, while MJ's scoring is all alone, so much higher than everyone else's - and the other guys are supposed to be great players.

More importantly, MJ leads the group by a massive margin in fga and points-per-possession efficiency too.. So he gives his team massive amounts more production at a higher efficiency - he destroys these guys.

who cares how many you score? How much do you contribute to winning. That's the only thing that matters. Everything else is just noise so people can sound smart.

Throughout the history of basketball at all levels, being the best scorer is rarely going to lead to titles. It's as true in high school as it is in the NBA. There are exceptions and MJ is the biggest of such. He was so great at scoring he could do what he did and not hurt his teams. He's unique in that, but it doesn't mean others can't be better players than him.

Your inability to understand and explain Jordan's greatness is comical. Most people don't feel a need to do it, it's clear he was the greatest we'll ever see. Yet you find ways to build him up so poorly that people can't help themselves in arguing against what you're saying and essentially making it look like on these boards that there's a reason to think others are better than Jordan. It's like you want as many people to think less of him so you have more people to argue with over this?

[3ball]

Less replaceable? You're just making things up now, basically Durant and LeBron both grab more rebounds.

What is ORtg based on?
Yeah.. Offensive rebounds are less replaceable, whereas any stiff can grab a defensive board.

ORtg is the number of points produced by the individual per 100 possessions.. It has nothing to do with the team.

[3ball]

Throughout the history of basketball at all levels, being the best scorer is rarely going to lead to titles. It's as true in high school as it is in the NBA. There are exceptions and MJ is the biggest of such. He was so great at scoring he could do what he did and not hurt his teams. He's unique in that, but it doesn't mean others can't be better players than him.



Uh, yeah it does boss - you just explained why MJ's the goat:

MJ and Shaq are the only scoring champs in the modern era to win a championship - except MJ did it 6 times, to Shaq's once.. Mikan and Fulks did it in the 50's.

Scoring + clutch is far greater than any other stat category by far, especially for #1 options.

[#number6ix#]

Bron #2 despite having no navigational efficiency, off-ball passing, off-ball offense, and no sophisticated scoring ability

Must be the spacing, lacking of paint camping, and hand checking

[dhsilv]

Uh, yeah it does boss - you just explained why MJ's the goat:

MJ and Shaq are the only scoring champs in the modern era to win a championship - except MJ did it 6 times, to Shaq's once.. Mikan and Fulks did it in the 50's.

Scoring + clutch is far greater than any other stat category by far, especially for #1 options.

I can't even take you seriously with things this stupid.

If it's not normal for a scoring champ to win, it means scoring has poor if not bad correlation with winning.

It's like I'm talking to a toddler.

[dhsilv]

Yeah.. Offensive rebounds are less replaceable, whereas any stiff can grab a defensive board.

ORtg is the number of points produced by the individual per 100 possessions.. It has nothing to do with the team.

I'll apologize right now if I missed any reference to team numbers here.

The Scoring Possessions formula is by far the most complex:

ScPoss = (FG_Part + AST_Part + FT_Part) * (1 - (Team_ORB / Team_Scoring_Poss) * Team_ORB_Weight * Team_Play%) + ORB_Part

where:

FG_Part = FGM * (1 - 0.5 * ((PTS - FTM) / (2 * FGA)) * qAST)
qAST = ((MP / (Team_MP / 5)) * (1.14 * ((Team_AST - AST) / Team_FGM))) + ((((Team_AST / Team_MP) * MP * 5 - AST) / ((Team_FGM / Team_MP) * MP * 5 - FGM)) * (1 - (MP / (Team_MP / 5))))
AST_Part = 0.5 * (((Team_PTS - Team_FTM) - (PTS - FTM)) / (2 * (Team_FGA - FGA))) * AST
FT_Part = (1-(1-(FTM/FTA))^2)*0.4*FTA
Team_Scoring_Poss = Team_FGM + (1 - (1 - (Team_FTM / Team_FTA))^2) * Team_FTA * 0.4
Team_ORB_Weight = ((1 - Team_ORB%) * Team_Play%) / ((1 - Team_ORB%) * Team_Play% + Team_ORB% * (1 - Team_Play%))
Team_ORB% = Team_ORB / (Team_ORB + (Opponent_TRB - Opponent_ORB))
Team_Play% = Team_Scoring_Poss / (Team_FGA + Team_FTA * 0.4 + Team_TOV)
ORB_Part = ORB * Team_ORB_Weight * Team_Play%

Missed FG and Missed FT Possessions are calculated as follows:

FGxPoss = (FGA - FGM) * (1 - 1.07 * Team_ORB%)
FTxPoss = ((1 - (FTM / FTA))^2) * 0.4 * FTA

Total Possessions are then computed like so:

TotPoss = ScPoss + FGxPoss + FTxPoss + TOV

Now, Individual Points Produced must also be calculated:

PProd = (PProd_FG_Part + PProd_AST_Part + FTM) * (1 - (Team_ORB / Team_Scoring_Poss) * Team_ORB_Weight * Team_Play%) + PProd_ORB_Part

where:

PProd_FG_Part = 2 * (FGM + 0.5 * 3PM) * (1 - 0.5 * ((PTS - FTM) / (2 * FGA)) * qAST)
PProd_AST_Part = 2 * ((Team_FGM - FGM + 0.5 * (Team_3PM - 3PM)) / (Team_FGM - FGM)) * 0.5 * (((Team_PTS - Team_FTM) - (PTS - FTM)) / (2 * (Team_FGA - FGA))) * AST
PProd_ORB_Part = ORB * Team_ORB_Weight * Team_Play% * (Team_PTS / (Team_FGM + (1 - (1 - (Team_FTM / Team_FTA))^2) * 0.4 * Team_FTA))

After all of that, we can finally calculate the player's individual Offensive Rating:

ORtg = 100 * (PProd / TotPoss)

[Gileraracer]

That's why one is the GOAT and the other the COLLUDER.

[3ball]

Bron #2 despite having no navigational efficiency, off-ball passing, off-ball offense, and no sophisticated scoring ability

Much be the spacing, lacking of paint camping, and hand checking
Being #2 isn't remarkable on this particular list.. On this list, everyone's stats are all bunched up together, while MJ's are so much higher than everyone else's - it's an amazing display of 1 player's superiority.

And you can't say "it's just scoring" when the gap is THAT big and conspicuous - the rest of those players are supposed to be great players and yet MJ's scoring was that far superior..

Also, scoring + clutch is far more important than any other stat category, especially for #1 options.. Furthermore, winning a championship while being the league's scoring champ is one of the hardest things to do in basketball history.. MJ and Shaq are the guys in the modern era to do it - except MJ did it 6 times, to Shaq's once.. Mikan and Fulks did it in the 50's.

MJ's off-ball game allowed him to fit his goat scoring right on top of what was already there, without diminishing teammates production - teammates played to capacity alongside MJ's off-ball game, so the TEAM played to capacity.. Otoh, it's statistical fact that Lebron achieves his stats by significantly lowering (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841) the PPG and APG of his teammates.. Accordingly, teammates aren't playing to capacity, so the team doesn't play to capacity and underachieves (2009, 2010, 2011).
.

[Rocketswin2013]

I would say Jackson's GOAT coaching fit the bald chucker into an offense where he couldn't jack 40 shots at will or make sub par teammates worse through forcing them the ball for assists.




Triangle offense > LeBron ball > Jordan ball
True words.

[3ball]

triange>Lebron ball


Obviously, and Lebron doesn't have the skills to play the triangle - in the halfcourt, the triangle would force him to move off-ball and then catch the ball on the high post like everyone else.. Then he wouldn't be allowed to use a live, pg-style dribble - he'd have to operate from the triple-threat (pre-dribble, stationary position) without dribbling or ball-domination.

Lebron is simply horrible at this style of play.. He'd get Phil fired or team-hop - simple as that.





Lebron ball > jordan ball


Bigger Overachievement: Jordan's 1989 Playoff Run vs. Lebron's 2007


Jordan's Bulls were 47-25 and the 6 seed.
Lebron's Cavs were 50-32 and the 2 seed.


1st Round Jordan: CLE...(#3 seed, 57-25, #2 ranked defense... 40.0.. 6.0.. 8.1.. 51.8% FG)
1st Round Lebron: WSH (#7 seed, 41-41, #28 ranked defense.. 27.0.. 8.5.. 7.5.. 42.5% FG)

2nd Round Jordan: NYK (#2 seed, 52-30, #10 ranked defense... 35.5.. 9.5.. 8.3.. 55.0% FG)
2nd Round Lebron: NJN (#6 seed, 41-41, #15 ranked defense... 24.7.. 7.3.. 8.5.. 42.3% FG)

Conf. Finals Jordan: DET (#1 seed, 62-30, #3 ranked defense... 30.0.. 5.5.. 6.5.. 46.0% FG)
Conf. Finals Lebron: DET (#1 seed, 53-29, #7 ranked defense... 25.7.. 9.1.. 8.5.. 44.9% FG)


NO COMPARISON..

[#number6ix#]

Being #2 isn't remarkable on this particular list.. On this list, everyone's stats are all bunched up together, while MJ's are so much higher than everyone else's - it's an amazing display of 1 player's superiority.

And you can't say "it's just scoring" when the gap is THAT big and conspicuous - the rest of those players are supposed to be great players and yet MJ's scoring was that far superior..

Also, scoring + clutch is far more important than any other stat category, especially for #1 options.. Furthermore, winning a championship while being the league's scoring champ is one of the hardest things to do in basketball history.. MJ and Shaq are the guys in the modern era to do it - except MJ did it 6 times, to Shaq's once.. Mikan and Fulks did it in the 50's.

MJ's off-ball game allowed him to fit his goat scoring right on top of what was already there, without diminishing teammates production - teammates played to capacity alongside MJ's off-ball game, so the TEAM played to capacity.. Otoh, it's statistical fact that Lebron achieves his stats by significantly lowering (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841) the PPG and APG of his teammates.. Accordingly, teammates aren't playing to capacity, so the team doesn't play to capacity and underachieves (2009, 2010, 2011).
.

It is remarkable when you think about the fact that far more skilled and better scoring players are below him such as KD and Kobe

Post the scoring and clutch stats

[Rocketswin2013]

Obviously, and Lebron doesn't have the skills to play the triangle - in the halfcourt, the triangle would force him to move off-ball and then catch the ball on the high post like everyone else.. Then he wouldn't be allowed to use a live, pg-style dribble - he'd have to operate from the triple-threat (pre-dribble, stationary position) without dribbling or ball-domination.

Lebron is simply horrible at this style of play.. He'd get Phil fired or team-hop - simple as that.



Bigger Overachievement: Jordan's 1989 Playoff Run vs. Lebron's 2007


Jordan's Bulls were 47-25 and the 6 seed.
Lebron's Cavs were 50-32 and the 2 seed.


1st Round Jordan: CLE...(#3 seed, 57-25, #2 ranked defense... 40.0.. 6.0.. 8.1.. 51.8% FG)
1st Round Lebron: WSH (#7 seed, 41-41, #28 ranked defense.. 27.0.. 8.5.. 7.5.. 42.5% FG)

2nd Round Jordan: NYK (#2 seed, 52-30, #10 ranked defense... 35.5.. 9.5.. 8.3.. 55.0% FG)
2nd Round Lebron: NJN (#6 seed, 41-41, #15 ranked defense... 24.7.. 7.3.. 8.5.. 42.3% FG)

Conf. Finals Jordan: DET (#1 seed, 62-30, #3 ranked defense... 30.0.. 5.5.. 6.5.. 46.0% FG)
Conf. Finals Lebron: DET (#1 seed, 53-29, #7 ranked defense... 25.7.. 9.1.. 8.5.. 44.9% FG)


NO COMPARISON..
LeBron and Phil would've been an awful match...

For the rest of the league.


IIRC Phil was gushing over LeBron in 2012. Saying he was possibly better than the man you worship. Said he would get better(which he did) and that he wanted Kobe to implement a more LeBron-style of play that involved more unselfishness.

Phil does say a lot of things though...

Still he clearly thinks more of LeBron-ball than you do. Very likely thinks more of it than the mess Jordan was putting on the court before he took over and instilled discipline into that team...

I'm bored.

[Queen Sansa]

Brah, Jordan took almost 6 more shots than LeBron....

[NZStreetBaller]

Im not sure if im impressed with all of 3balls information and researched. Or deeply disturbed by it lol.

Man u have got to have some mad time for all this

[GIF REACTION]

"Every action on a basketball court is influenced by nine other players, not to mention a coach. For this reason, there is no 'holy grail' in basketball equivalent to baseball's on-base percentage." -- Chris Ballard, Oct. 21, 2005

[3ball]

Brah, Jordan took almost 6 more shots than LeBron...


Without his efficiency declining - he maintained his efficiency at the same level Lebron's was, while giving his team 6 more shots of that..

So just take what Lebron does, and imagine Lebron took 6 more shots while maintaining his efficiency at the same level.. Imagine if Lebron just did like 25-50% more of what he normally did scoring-wise, a tad more assists, and oh wait, I forgot - better efficiency.. That's Jordan.

[VengefulAngel]

Im not sure if im impressed with all of 3balls information and researched. Or deeply disturbed by it lol.

Man u have got to have some mad time for all this

He works for the 76er's.

[sdot_thadon]

.
JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 32.5 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 26.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 25.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 58.3 ts.. 1.2 oreb.. 9.1 dreb.. 4.8 ast.. 4.1 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 1.5 blk
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 27.7 fga.. 110 ORtg.. 54.1 ts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 24.5 fga.. 108 ORtg.. 55.4 ts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk
.
Great scott, 3ball you've done it again! yet another shit thread

So what you mean to tell us is Mj shot more than all those guys? Wow, would have never guessed it. So with this profound info we can come to a few conclusions:

1) Despite kobe being touted as an alltime level chucker, somehow Mj was even more of a ball hog. That equal opportunity tho.

2) That even though Lebron is "ball dominant" MJ somehow takes 6 more fga while maintaining a comparable apg number as well.........while according to you playing at the same pace as Lebron teams.......hmmm. that equal opportunity tho.

Cliffs: 3ball is a world class researcher destroying Mj myths left and right.

You the real MVP.
Round of applause :applause: :applause:

[Uncle Drew]

Off-ball passing. :oldlol:

[Uncle Drew]

So Jordan took 6 more shots for only 7 more points? I might have to change my all-time list.

[3ball]

So what you mean to tell us is Mj shot more than all those guys


Without his efficiency declining - he maintained his efficiency at the same level Lebron's was, while giving his team 6 more shots of that..

So just take what Lebron does, and imagine Lebron took 6 more shots while maintaining his efficiency and assists at the same level - he'd be a completely different player, like MJ was.. And then his stats would be up there with MJ's, instead of far below and bunched up with everyone else's.

But the reality is that unlike MJ, Lebron's CAN'T shoot well at high volume, as the 2015 playoffs showed, and as the stats had already shown his whole career: he has poor efficiency at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooting - this is statistical fact.
.

[scandisk_]

3ball arguing with his alts.

dude's f**kin mental :oldlol:

[3ball]

So Jordan took 6 more shots for only 7 more points? I might have to change my all-time list.


That's 20% more scoring on better efficiency... So take what Lebron did and multiply by 1.2.. then you have what Jordan did.

[dunksby]

Durant better than Jordan in scoring :eek: :bowdown:

[dunksby]

So Jordan took 6 more shots for only 7 more points? I might have to change my all-time list.
And 8 more shots than Durant to score 7 more points on less efficiency :biggums:

[3ball]

And 8 more shots than Durant to score 7 more points on less efficiency :biggums:


If Durant took 8 more shots, his efficiency would plummet.

It's harder to shoot well at high volume... And so far, Durant hasn't even shot high volume yet in his career, let alone shoot WELL at high volume.

Of course, achieving high efficiency at high volume while winning a championship requires the most skill - the player must achieve the high volume at high efficiency within a team concept, without diminishing the stats of teammates so the team can win championship... The only players to ever reach this holy grail of basketball skill is MJ and Hakeem - they're the only guys in history to win a championship while attempting 25+ shots on 45%+ FG..

A list of every player who has achieved 25 FGA and 45%+ FG is shown in this thread (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=387721).

[Megabox!]

I find it hilarious how idiots on this board constantly say LBJ has no moves, shitty offensive game and all around being a bad shooter yet his scoring and shooting percentages are elite