Players with 25 FGA and 45%+ FG

[3ball]

.
Efficiency at high volume - players with 25+ FGA and 45% FG


Regular Season:

Michael Jordan: 1987, 1993
Rick Barry:...... 1967, 1975
Bob McAdoo:.... 1975
George Gervin:. 1982
Kobe Bryant:.... 2006
Elgin Baylor:.... 1963
Tiny Archibald:. 1973
Dominique:...... 1988


Playoffs (10 game min):

*Michael Jordan:..... 1988, 1990, 1992, 1993, 1997, 1998
Elgin Baylor:.......... 1960, 1961, 1968
Bob McAdoo:.......... 1974, 1975
George Gervin:....... 1975, 1982
Jerry West:............ 1966
Rick Barry:............ 1977
Hakeem Olajuwon:.. 1995
Kobe Bryant:.......... 2007
Dominique:............ 1988
Allen Iverson:......... 2005
Kareem Jabbar:...... 1975


* Averaged 25.1 FGA and 48.7 FG% for his playoff career


Notice that Lebron is not on the list - the 2015 playoffs were Lebron's first high volume playoffs and we saw what happened when the high volume (27 fga) forced him to stray from his normal diet of 3-pointers and layups - he shot an abysmal 41%.. Unfortunately, Lebron has poor efficiency at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooting, so he can't shoot well at high volume or require a double-team to PREVENT high volume.

In the Finals, he only shot 39% - it benefited the Warriors every time he shot, so they encouraged his high volume by not double-teaming.. They only double-teamed him 18 times in the entire Finals (http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106718/iguodala-heads-all-playoff-defensive-team) (see 3rd paragraph in section on Curry for double-teaming data).. Compare that to MJ, where his efficient high volume caused teams to double-team him 10+ times in a single quarter, as a standard (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210) - teams couldn't afford high volume from Jordan, since it was accompanied by high efficiency too..

But the REAL holy grail of basketball skill is far greater than controlling pace with high volume like Lebron, or adding good efficiency to the high volume like MJ.. The real holy grail is good efficiency at high volume while winning championships because the efficient high volume must be achieved within the team concept.. Only 2 players have reached this holy grail of basketball skill (25 shot attempts on 45% during a championship playoff run): MJ did it 4 times (1992, 1993, 1997, and 1998) and Hakeem once (1995).. Ultimately, their elite midrange efficiency allowed them to shoot well at high volume.

Now lets look at Lebron - wouldn't it be nice for Lebron to score 20% more on better efficiency????... Isn't that what any fan would want of their favorite player??.. Well that's what Jordan DID (see the stats below).

If Kobe or Lebron could shoot a higher volume at the same efficiency - they would... But they can't - only Jordan is capable of maintaining the same efficiency at very high volume:


Per 100 Possessions in Playoffs:

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 48.7 fg.. 56.8 ts.. 118 ORtg
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 47.3 fg.. 56.5 ts.. 114 ORtg
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 27.7 fga.. 44.8 fg.. 54.1 ts.. 110 ORtg
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 24.5 fga.. 47.8 fg.. 55.4 ts.. 108 ORtg


Considering the #2 thru #4 guys are between 32 and 36 points, you'd think the #1 guy would be at 37 or 38... But MJ is at 43.3 points, which far above the pack and in another tier - MJ simply did more (higher volume) while still maintaining equal or better efficiency.
.

[r15mohd]

and the agenda continues :facepalm

[Nikola_]

3ball doing more damage to mj than lebon & cowbe stanbase combined

[3ball]

3ball doing more damage to mj than lebon & cowbe stanbase combined


By showing Jordan is BY FAR the most efficient, high volume shooter in history?

And by showing Jordan and Hakeem were the only players to reach the holy grail of basketball skill: achieving high efficiency at high volume WHILE WINNING A CHAMPIONSHIP?.. MJ did it 4 times, while Hakeem did it once.
.

[GIF REACTION]

Notice how many older era players qualify for this? This is due to the current rules at the time, partiularly Illegal defense, and the restriction it put on defenses guarding isolation and post up plays. Despite a lack of 3pt shooting in the era, team offenses were afforded spacing via the rules of Illegal Defenses. Team-mates simply had to position themselves (similar to how actual 3pt shooters position themselves to create spacing) to open up the lane. The rules were very restrictive on double teaming, and the means by which they could be done.

Rule Enforced Spacing
Rule Enforced Spacing relates to the offensive floor spacing teams achieved during the Illegal Defense period (1981-2001)

1981 - Illegal Defense Guidelines put in place to increase scoring and open up the paint
Passage from Bill Simmons' (Globally known NBA analyst, well respected publically) book
[QUOTE]The new wave of coaches made defenses sophisticated enough by 1981 that [B][COLOR="Red"]the league created an

[Gileraracer]

That guy Jordan must be GAWD :bowdown:

[3ball]

http://i.imgur.com/UZg8H99.gif


Rule Enforced Spacing



Which rule specifically enforced spacing?... In your gif, defenders HAVEN'T followed shooters to the 3-point line - they're sagging off, just like today's game, so the old rules didn't provide any more spacing than today's rules do.. And all of your gifs were like this, with the defenders sagging off the 3-point shooters, just like today's game.

So which rules EXACTLY are forcing defenders to follow shooters out to the 3-point line?.. Nothing of course - there's never been any such thing.. Man-to-man defenders have always been allowed to sag off their man.. The Illegal Defense Guidelines didn't change that - defenders could sag off 3-point shooters all the way to the edge of the paint, and they could dip into the paint for up to 3 seconds, just like today's game:



2e. When a strongside offensive player is above the tip of the circle extended, his defensive man may be no lower than the free-throw line extended (upper defensive area) for more than 2.9 seconds. When a weakside offensive player is above the tip of the circle, his defensive man must be no lower than the "upper defensive area" for more than 2.9 seconds.


The full Illegal Defense Guidelines from the NBA rule book found here (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html), also shown at realgm here (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=28840140&sid=f37d422abcb4fb3198dba014bc15f361#p28840140)

Man-to-man defenders have ALWAYS been allowed to sag off their man.. The only time in history when defenders weren't allowed to sag off their man is today's paint defenders, who must remain with "armslength" (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html) of their man to remain in the 16 x 19 foot painted area.. "Armslength" (about 3 feet) is the strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder, yet this is the current policy governing the most important area of the floor: the paint.

Essentially, today's defender cannot remain in the paint with no one else around - when their man is out of "armslength", defenders must vacate the paint, which creates spacing and makes the armslength provision of the defensive 3 seconds rule a shining example of rules-enforced spacing..

Otoh, in previous eras, there was no such "armslength" language in the rules.. Defenders could remain in the paint with no one around and their man far out of armslength - according to Rule 2b of the Illegal Defense Guidelines, a defender's man could be up to 3 feet outside the paint.. This rule allowed defenders to remain in the paint more often, which discourages a spacing and is therefore NOT rule-enforced spacing:


2b. When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area with no time limitations. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area.

[3ball]

Rule Enforced Spacing


Specifically, what rule from previous eras enforced or ensured spacing?

If you can't answer this simple question, then the mods should ban you from plastering their boards with nonsense - it lowers the integrity of the board to repeatedly post something that never existed.

[GIF REACTION]

Specifically, what rule from previous eras enforced or ensured spacing?

If you can't answer this simple question, then the mods should ban you from plastering their boards with nonsense - it lowers the integrity of the board to repeatedly post something that never existed.
Illegal Defense Guidelines

How else could teams get away with playing multiple non offensive threats on the court? This started to really happen in the late 90's, and was a general evolution of defense from the Pat Riley Knicks...

There's obviously a lot more to it

But here's a neat graph showing the increase in 1st option dependence

http://www.rawbw.com/~deano/articles/rules2001/ballhog_trend.gif

[TripleA]

Illegal Defense Guidelines

How else could teams get away with playing multiple non offensive threats on the court? This started to really happen in the late 90's, and was a general evolution of defense from the Pat Riley Knicks...

There's obviously a lot more to it

But here's a neat graph showing the increase in 1st option dependence

http://www.rawbw.com/~deano/articles/rules2001/ballhog_trend.gif

:applause: great research

[StrongLurk]

Which rule specifically enforced spacing?... In your gif, defenders HAVEN'T followed shooters to the 3-point line - they're sagging off, just like today's game, so the old rules didn't provide any more spacing than today's rules do.. And all of your gifs were like this, with the defenders sagging off the 3-point shooters, just like today's game.

So which rules EXACTLY are forcing defenders to follow shooters out to the 3-point line?.. Nothing of course - there's never been any such thing.. Man-to-man defenders have always been allowed to sag off their man.. The Illegal Defense Guidelines didn't change that - defenders could sag off 3-point shooters all the way to the edge of the paint, and they could dip into the paint for up to 3 seconds, just like today's game:



2e. When a strongside offensive player is above the tip of the circle extended, his defensive man may be no lower than the free-throw line extended (upper defensive area) for more than 2.9 seconds. When a weakside offensive player is above the tip of the circle, his defensive man must be no lower than the "upper defensive area" for more than 2.9 seconds.


The full Illegal Defense Guidelines from the NBA rule book found here (http://nbahoopsonline.com/History/Leagues/NBA/Rules/Fouls.html), also shown at realgm here (http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=28840140&sid=f37d422abcb4fb3198dba014bc15f361#p28840140)

Man-to-man defenders have ALWAYS been allowed to sag off their man.. The only time in history when defenders weren't allowed to sag off their man is today's paint defenders, who must remain with "armslength" (http://www.nba.com/nba101/misunderstood_0708.html) of their man to remain in the 16 x 19 foot painted area.. "Armslength" (about 3 feet) is the strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder, yet this is the current policy governing the most important area of the floor: the paint.

Essentially, today's defender cannot remain in the paint with no one else around - when their man is out of "armslength", defenders must vacate the paint, which creates spacing and makes the armslength provision of the defensive 3 seconds rule a shining example of rules-enforced spacing..

Otoh, in previous eras, there was no such "armslength" language in the rules.. Defenders could remain in the paint with no one around and their man far out of armslength - according to Rule 2b of the Illegal Defense Guidelines, a defender's man could be up to 3 feet outside the paint.. This rule allowed defenders to remain in the paint more often, which discourages a spacing and is therefore NOT rule-enforced spacing:


2b. When a defensive player is guarding an offensive player who is adjacent (posted-up) to the 3-second lane, the defensive player may be within the "inside lane" area with no time limitations. An offensive player shall be ruled as "postedup" when he is within 3' of the free throw lane line. A hash mark on the baseline denotes the 3' area.

Man that is ugly. So glad they changed these defensive rules.

[G0ATbe]

Notice all of these took place in weak eras pre-2000s except for Kobe. GOAT gonna GOAT:applause: .

[3ball]

Illegal Defense Guidelines

How else could teams get away with playing multiple non offensive threats on the court? This started to really happen in the late 90's, and was a general evolution of defense from the Pat Riley Knicks...


Your argument said there were rules that forced defenders to provide spacing by having to follow shooters to the 3-point line, thus providing spacing.. WHERE ARE THESE RULES??

Instead, the rules are the Illegal Defense Guidelines are the opposite of what you said - they allow defenders to sag off 3-point shooters to the edge of the paint just like today's defenders.. and defenders can dip into the paint for 3 seconds just like today's defenders - these rules were posted earlier itt.

The reality is that today's rules enforce spacing in the paint because defenders must vacate the paint when they aren't within "armslength" - forcing defenders to vacate the paint creates spacing and clears the paint - therefore, the "armslength" provision of today's defensive 3 seconds rule is rules-enforced spacing.

"Armslength" (about 3 feet) is the strictest defense possible outside of having defenders stand shoulder-to-shoulder, yet this is the current policy governing the most important area of the floor: the paint.

[RRR3]

One player shouldn't be taking 25+ shots a game if the team is intending to win a championship.

[3ball]

The 2015 playoffs were Lebron's first high volume series.. High volume like his 27 shots per game average can't be achieved on all 3-and-D.. But unfortunately, Lebron's efficiency is poor at the additional midrange (36% career) and isolations (33% in 2015 playoffs) required of high volume shooting - this is statistical fact - since he can't shoot well at high volume, he doesn't require/command a double team to PREVENT high volume, therefore uncomplicating an opponent's defensive strategy.. At 39% efficiency, it benefited the Warriors every time he shot, so it's no surprise that they allowed him incessant clearouts without double-teaming - they doubled him a total of 18 times in the entire series, despite all the secluded clearouts.

It's a horrific indictment on Lebron's game that his poor midrange and isolation efficiency prevents him from shooting well at high volume and commanding a double-team.. Otoh, MJ had elite efficiency at the midrange and isolations required of high volume shooting - this is why he averaged 25.1 fga in the playoffs for his career, at 48.7% fg (Lebron: 19.9 fga on 47.3).. Only 10 players in history have even had a SINGLE playoff run with 25 fga and 45% shooting.. MJ was the most efficient, high volume shooter in history, by far.

We all know how high volume can help dictate pace of the game... But that isn't enough to win... High volume AND high efficiency is what devastates teams.

Of course, achieving high efficiency at high volume while winning a championship requires the most skill - the player must achieve the high volume at high efficiency within a team concept, without diminishing the stats of teammates.

The only players reach the holy grail of basketball skill by shooting high volume at high efficiency while winning a championship (25+ FGA on 45%+ during the playoffs) were MJ (1992, 1993, 1997, and 1998) and Hakeem (1995).. It's crazy - sometimes we forget how skilled Hakeem eventually became (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njTa6_HBlI0).

In Lebron's case, he isn't capable of efficient high volume, so the poor efficiency alone precludes him from ever winning a championship while shooting high volume.. But his inability to achieve high volume within a team concept would also prevent him from winning a ring with high volume.. His high volume in 2015 playoffs was achieved via a ball-dominant, playground, clearout style.. This doesn't foster optimal chemistry and the stats prove it - it's a statistical fact that Lebron significantly reduces the PPG and APG of teammates, and doesn't materially improve the assist frequency of his teams (team possessions/team assists).

Here's the per 100 possession stats of MJ and other wings he's compared to - imagine if any player on this list took 6-8 more shot attempts at the same efficiency - they would be doing exactly what they always do, but just a lot more OF it - that's MJ - the gap between MJ and everyone else is huge, specifically because he shoots so well at high volume:

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 32.5 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 26.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 25.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 58.3 ts.. 1.2 oreb.. 9.1 dreb.. 4.8 ast.. 4.1 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 1.5 blk
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 27.7 fga.. 110 ORtg.. 54.1 ts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 24.5 fga.. 108 ORtg.. 55.4 ts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk


Since MJ is the most efficient, high volume shooter in history, he was also the most double-teamed players ever (besides Wilt)... Even more than Shaq - Shaq was never double-teamed 10+ possessions, not even in the 2000 Finals - but MJ was all the time... The Bad Boys' 4th quarter strategy was to double MJ literally every time he touched the ball, as shown here in Game 6 of 1989 ECF - starting at the 9 minute mark (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4W_0I82B18&t=1h21m11s) of 4th quarter, MJ is double-teamed 10 of 13 times he touched the ball to finish out the game.. The 3 times he didn't get doubled were because he shot the ball immediately upon the catch - here's all 10 double-teams shown in gifs:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11703590&postcount=88


Here's a video of him against Atlanta - he's double-teamed 12 of 13 possessions from the 6:40 mark to the 8:40 mark - the consecutive double-teams are shown in rapid succession:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDGm8pV6uU&t=6m40s


The youtube channel "Nobody Touches Jordan" did a video of Payton guarding MJ in Game 4 of 1996 Finals (link above) - MJ was doubled exactly 10 of the 20 times he caught the ball with Payton guarding - all 10 double-teams are shown here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgFWyLRNsGk


By comparison, Lebron was doubled-teamed a TOTAL of 18 times in the entire Finals... Think about that for a second.. Still impressed with his 36 ppg on 39%?


"Curry’s ability to guard one-on-one allowed the Warriors’ wing defenders to double-team LeBron James effectively. When James was double-teamed, the Cavaliers scored 5 points on 2-of-18 shooting (11 percent)".

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/106718/iguodala-heads-all-playoff-defensive-team


If you watch ANY Jordan video, you'll see he's doubled between 30-100% of the time, and his scoring often occurs while avoiding/eluding a double.. This makes the gap between his stats and everyone else's even more impressive.. Here's another video of every-possession double teams vs. Indiana:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOS1qNTWb70

[3ball]

One player shouldn't be taking 25+ shots a game if the team is intending to win a championship.
Generally speaking.. But it's possible.. Let's start from the ground up:

Firstly, there's high volume without high efficiency - this can't win, but the sheer volume alone can help dictate pace of the game... The next level is high volume AND high efficiency - this can devastate many opponents and it forces teams to decide whether to double-team or not.

However, the most skill of all is demonstrated by achieving high efficiency and high volume on a CHAMPIONSHIP TEAM, because the high volume must be achieved within the team concept - the high volume must be achieved without diminishing teammates' statistics so the team can reach it's ceiling and be a championship team..

The only players to ever reach this level of skill and basketball mastery were MJ (1992, 1993, 1997, and 1998) and Hakeem (1995).. It's crazy - sometimes we forget how skilled Hakeem eventually became (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njTa6_HBlI0).

[Duffy Pratt]

Wilt did it seven times, but doesn't make your list...

Also Jack Twyman

More telling is that there have been only about 30 seasons where guys have chucked up enough shots to average 25 shots per game. And those thirty seasons are divided up among 13 players. What you might have mentioned is that in the 30 or so seasons where someone has taken 25 shots/per game, only four times did the player manage to shoot less than 45%. Those would be:

Baylor - 65
Elvin Hayes - 69, 71
Maravich - 78

Does this actually tell us anything? I don't think so.

Also, for the regular season Champion Golden State Warriors, Rick Barry averaged 46% on 28 shots per game. In the playoffs his volume fell off to 25 shots per game, and percentage fell to .444. According to your theory, that must be why the Warriors lost that season. You get your facts wrong, or they are incomplete. Your reasoning doesn't follow from your facts.

And the basic points you are trying to make are obvious. Of course, if a team has a high volume, efficient shooter who works well within the team concept, its likely going to do well. But for two years, Havlicek was putting up 24 shots a game at over 45%. The Celtics didn't win. Was this because Havlicek didn't fit within the team concept? It's ludicrous. The Celtics lost those years because his teams weren't as good as the competition. It's the same reason that Jordan's teams lost for year after year. When he got a better team, and a better coach, things changed.

[juju151111]

One player shouldn't be taking 25+ shots a game if the team is intending to win a championship.
Wel mj did it.

[Thesmallmamba]

Why is Kobe listed in 2007? He didn't play the minimum 10 games there :lol

[3ball]

Wilt did it seven times, but doesn't make your list...


Wilt was so clearly the most dominant, that I normally exclude him in my threads and include this caveat in the title.

See the thread I made about double-teaming - it needed to include a caveat for Wilt:

Micheal Jordan is the most double-teamed player of all time (besides Wilt) (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210)

[Cali Syndicate]

One player shouldn't be taking 25+ shots a game if the team is intending to win a championship.

Outside of mj, has any other player won a ship while leading the league in scoring?

[Duffy Pratt]

Outside of mj, has any other player won a ship while leading the league in scoring?

Yes, Mikan, Kareem, and Shaq.

[Duffy Pratt]

Wilt was so clearly the most dominant, that I normally exclude him in my threads and include this caveat in the title.

See the thread I made about double-teaming - it needed to include a caveat for Wilt:

Micheal Jordan is the most double-teamed player of all time (besides Wilt) (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=386210)

Still, it has some relevance, I would think, that Wilt finally won a championship when his FGAs dropped from 25 to 14 (and his efficiency skyrocketed).

[julizaver]

.
Regular Season:

Michael Jordan: 1987, 1993
Rick Barry:..... 1967, 1975
Bob McAdoo:... 1975
George Gervin: 1982
Kobe Bryant:... 2006
Elgin Baylor:... 1963
Tiny Archibald: 1973
Dominique:..... 1988


Playoffs (10 game min):

*Michael Jordan:.... 1988, 1990, 1992, 1993, 1997, 1998
Elgin Baylor:......... 1960, 1961, 1968
Bob McAdoo:......... 1974, 1975
George Gervin:...... 1975, 1982
Jerry West:........... 1966
Rick Barry:........... 1977
Hakeem Olajuwon:. 1995
Kobe Bryant:......... 2007
Dominique:........... 1988
Allen Iverson:........ 2005
Kareem Jabbar:..... 1975


* Averaged 25.1 FGA and 48.7 FG% for his playoff career


We all know how high volume can help dictate pace of the game... But that isn't enough to win... High volume AND high efficiency is what devastates teams.

However, achieving high efficiency and high volume on a CHAMPIONSHIP TEAM requires the most skill of all, because the high volume must be achieved within the team concept - the high volume must be achieved without diminishing teammates' statistics so the team can reach it's ceiling and be a championship team..

The only players to ever reach this level of skill and basketball mastery were MJ (1992, 1993, 1997, and 1998) and Hakeem (1995).. It's crazy - sometimes we forget how skilled Hakeem eventually became (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njTa6_HBlI0).
.

Kareem, Wilt ... probably some others ?

[Monta Ellis MVP]

I thought I would see LeBron on this list.

[Nash]

I thought I would see LeBron on this list.
why, lebron doesn't need to take that many shots to score equal amount of points.

[3ball]

I thought I would see LeBron on this list.


:roll:

Of course Lebron isn't on the list - maybe you're just not aware, but it's statistical fact that Lebron can't shoot well at high volume.. Or maybe you think 30 shot attempts can be achieved on all 3-and-D???... :oldlol: ... Obviously not, but unfortunately, Lebron's efficiency is poor at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooting - his poor midrange/iso efficiency is statistical fact, and it proves he can't shoot well at high volume.

Since he can't shoot well at high volume, he doesn't require a double-team to PREVENT high volume.. At 39% efficiency, it benefited the Warriors every time Lebron shot, so they encouraged high volume by not double-teaming..

But honestly, it's more than just high volume like Lebron, or high volume with high efficiency like Jordan.. The REAL holy grail of basketball skill is achieving high volume with high efficiency on a championship team.. To win a championship with high volume, the high volume must be achieved within the team concept - teammates must be able to play to capacity alongside the high volume, so the TEAM can play to capacity and be a championship team..

The only players to ever reach the level of skill and basketball mastery it takes to win a championship with efficient high volume were MJ (1992, 1993, 1997, and 1998) and Hakeem (1995).. It's crazy - sometimes we forget how skilled Hakeem eventually became (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njTa6_HBlI0).
.

[!@#$%Vectors!@#]

[QUOTE=GIF REACTION]Notice how many older era players qualify for this? This is due to the current rules at the time, partiularly Illegal defense, and the restriction it put on defenses guarding isolation and post up plays. Despite a lack of 3pt shooting in the era, team offenses were afforded spacing via the rules of Illegal Defenses. Team-mates simply had to position themselves (similar to how actual 3pt shooters position themselves to create spacing) to open up the lane. The rules were very restrictive on double teaming, and the means by which they could be done.

Rule Enforced Spacing
Rule Enforced Spacing relates to the offensive floor spacing teams achieved during the Illegal Defense period (1981-2001)

1981 - Illegal Defense Guidelines put in place to increase scoring and open up the paint
Passage from Bill Simmons' (Globally known NBA analyst, well respected publically) book


Effect:
1979 league average offensive rating: 103.8

1981-82
[COLOR="Blue"]

[Duffy Pratt]

The REAL holy grail of basketball skill is achieving high volume with high efficiency on a championship team.. To win a championship with high volume, the high volume must be achieved within the team concept - teammates must be able to play to capacity alongside the high volume, so the TEAM can play to capacity and be a championship team..
.

Nonsense. The Holy Grail is to win championships. Period. High volume or low volume has nothing to do with it, unless you think the point of the game is to establish who was the greatest individual. Russell won a ton without any high volume shooting. In fact, the best teams have tended to be balanced, and not to have a single high volume player. The Spurs a couple of years ago must have sucked. Not a single one of them even began to approach your "REAL holy grail."

[3ball]

Nonsense. The Holy Grail is to win championships. Period. High volume or low volume has nothing to do with it, unless you think the point of the game is to establish who was the greatest individual. Russell won a ton without any high volume shooting. In fact, the best teams have tended to be balanced, and not to have a single high volume player. The Spurs a couple of years ago must have sucked. Not a single one of them even began to approach your "REAL holy grail."
Sometimes high volume is the only way your team can win - look at 1993 Finals - both teams averaged EXACTLY 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ORtg, so every ounce of MJ's 33 shot attempts per game and 41/9/6 on 51% was needed..

Another example is the 2015 Finals - the Cavs needed high volume from Lebron, which he gave them... But he couldn't give them the high volume WITH high efficiency... Nor could he have high volume while teammates maintained their stats... It takes GOAT skill to do that... Only MJ and Hakeem have ever won championships while shooting over 25 FGA and 45% FG for a playoff run... MJ won 4 that way (1992, 1993, 1997, 1998) while Hakeem one (1995).

[Mr. Jabbar]

These graphs clearly prove Kobe > Jordan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lebron:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9c/Graph_of_Bailey_Scores_of_Supreme_Court_Justices_1 950-2011.png/800px-Graph_of_Bailey_Scores_of_Supreme_Court_Justices_1 950-2011.png

http://andrewgelman.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/6a00d8341c66b253ef01287675419c970c-800wi.png

http://www.mathcove.net/petersen/lessons/images/LLLK_5.gif

[Thesmallmamba]

Jabbar done lost it :biggums:


I dont think you can handle the pressure of leading the LeBron Family :(




If only Dubeta was here...

[Mr. Jabbar]

Jabbar done lost it :biggums:


I dont think you can handle the pressure of leading the LeBron Family :(




If only Dubeta was here...

I'm keeping all time rankings honest. It has nothing to do with my STANDOM for the King. Dude is an all around BEAST.

[stalkerforlife]

These graphs clearly prove Kobe > Jordan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lebron:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9c/Graph_of_Bailey_Scores_of_Supreme_Court_Justices_1 950-2011.png/800px-Graph_of_Bailey_Scores_of_Supreme_Court_Justices_1 950-2011.png

http://andrewgelman.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/6a00d8341c66b253ef01287675419c970c-800wi.png

http://www.mathcove.net/petersen/lessons/images/LLLK_5.gif

:lol

[Duffy Pratt]

Sometimes high volume is the only way your team can win - look at 1993 Finals - both teams averaged EXACTLY 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ORtg, so every ounce of MJ's 33 shot attempts per game and 41/9/6 on 51% was needed..

Another example is the 2015 Finals - the Cavs needed high volume from Lebron, which he gave them... But he couldn't give them the high volume WITH high efficiency... Nor could he have high volume while teammates maintained their stats... It takes GOAT skill to do that... Only MJ and Hakeem have ever won championships while shooting over 25 FGA and 45% FG for a playoff run... MJ won 4 that way (1992, 1993, 1997, 1998) while Hakeem one (1995).

What this means to me is that both Jordan and Hakeem were fortunate enough to have a team that was built around the way they played, and those teams worked very well. Hakeem is an example of a guy who demanded that the ball go through him, and it worked well for a while, but he also let it get in the way of the team - since he thought that he was incompatible with Cassell (who may be the last truly good point guard the Rockets have had).

Beyond that, the endless quibbling about GOAT bores me. I'm perfectly willing to accept a group of people as being among the all time greats. Putting them into numerical order, or trying to come up with dispositive reasons why one of them was necessarily better or more accomplished than the other, just doesn't do anything for me.

I didn't like Jordan when he was first playing, but came to respect him because his teams were good teams. The first year with Rodman was one of my favorite teams to watch ever. I still have always had the feeling with Jordan that him being the man was at least as important to him as winning. But that theory never truly got tested.

My favorite players are the ones who did whatever it took to win, and that didn't necessarily mean scoring a boatload of points. Thus, high volume shooting strikes me as generally being a bad thing. It's more a symptom that something is wrong with the team. For me the model for a great basketball team was the 69-70 Knicks. Great defense, great team passing, six guys who averaged in double figures, and the shot attempts for them ranged from 10-17. Tremendous balance.

By the way, Cazzie Russell, who was sixth man, left that team and immediately went on to score over 20 points a game. That's not too extraordinary. But Don May, who averaged 2.6 points per game, in just 6 minutes per game, went to Buffalo and immediately averaged 20 per game. And Mike Riordan, another guy pretty far down the bench, went on to be an all-star with Baltimore. That's how deep a bench good teams had then.

[3ball]

What this means to me is that both Jordan and Hakeem were fortunate enough to have a team that was built around the way they played, and those teams worked very well.


What bores me is people making up their own reality - Phil Jackson had to sell MJ on the triangle - MJ had to conform his game to the triangle - this is a fact:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s


So don't make up your own reality - the facts are there.. Fortunately for MJ, he had the skill needed to lead the league in scoring using a low time-of-possession, off-ball style, as required by the equal-opportunity triangle.. That's goat skill right there - the triangle kills most players, let alone have a guy lead the league in scoring with it and go 6/6 with 6 fmvps.





My favorite players are the ones who did whatever it took to win, and that didn't necessarily mean scoring a boatload of points.


MJ was one of the best defenders ever - top 10 all-time defender and probably the best perimeter defender of all time... For example, MJ was assigned to guard Gary Payton as the primary, all-game defender in Game 3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meL62CUehuw) and Game 5 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFiqeJcgXfg) of 96' Finals, and locked him down both games.. MJ never let Payton, Magic, or Drexler get MVP's on him, let alone role players like Lebron does.. So MJ provided the vastly superior defense to go with his offense.

And his offense wasn't the kind stat-friendly, ball-dominant, playground style that has no chance of winning.. MJ's league-leading scoring was achieved in a low time-of-possession, off-ball manner - the highest level of skill - so it fit seamlessly into a strict, sophisticated, equal-opportunity offense like the triangle..

MJ elevated his teammates and made them improve under his watch and play better.. Lebron has never done that.. The way MJ gets his stats (fitting into a sophisticated offense and not affecting teammate performance) is just more impressive display of skill that allows his team to win at the highest level - it's a more impressive feat.

[Duffy Pratt]

What bores me is people making up their own reality - Phil Jackson had to sell MJ on the triangle - MJ had to conform his game to the triangle - this is a fact:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s


.

I said that the Bulls built the team around Jordan. Do you disagree? They would have been idiots not to.

There have been examples of superstars who made deep changes to their games to win championships. Earl Monroe went from over 20 points per game to about 15, taking 7 fewer shots per game when he came to the Knicks. Wilt finally won when he concentrated on passing, and stopped focusing on shooting. When he went to Baltimore, Elvin Hayes dropped his shot attempts by like 7-8 per game and became much more efficient. John Havlicek adapted his game for the team several times, as did McHale. Duncan has done the same thing over the years as the Spurs have morphed.

The change under Jackson still permitted Jordan to take by far the most shots, and to lead the league in scoring. As Jordan says in the video, he meant to prove that you can lead the league in scoring and win a championship. Both were important, and we will never know whether he would have sacrificed his scoring for a championship. What Jackson needed to persuade him of, is that it might be a better idea to pass than shoot in a clutch situation when you are being triple teamed.

[Duffy Pratt]

One other thing. Jackson's offense has never been equal opportunity, no matter what he says. In his nine championship years, seven teams had three guys average double figures. And two had four guys. Compare this to the 70 Knicks, with six, or Isiahs Pistons who also had six. Or the 86 Celtics, who had two dominant scorers and still had five guys averaging double figures, or Magics last championship team, which had seven. If the team had an equal opportunity offense, you might expect some more balance in scoring and shot attempts. That has never been a feature of one of Jacksons teams, though I bet he would have liked it given his pedigree.

[90sgoat]

Illegal Defense Guidelines

How else could teams get away with playing multiple non offensive threats on the court?

Ask the Cavs playing Tristan Thompson or the Warriors playing Draymond Green or Spurs playing Thiago Splitter or Heat playing Birdman.

Hold this L and for f... sake stop posting your delusional copy paste, you are doing it wrong. Can't just post a long as essay.

[juju151111]

One other thing. Jackson's offense has never been equal opportunity, no matter what he says. In his nine championship years, seven teams had three guys average double figures. And two had four guys. Compare this to the 70 Knicks, with six, or Isiahs Pistons who also had six. Or the 86 Celtics, who had two dominant scorers and still had five guys averaging double figures, or Magics last championship team, which had seven. If the team had an equal opportunity offense, you might expect some more balance in scoring and shot attempts. That has never been a feature of one of Jacksons teams, though I bet he would have liked it given his pedigree.
The Bulls routinely averaged 20+asts and it was equal opportunity. Mj was just the most fit to take the most shots. He got 6 rongs from that the most important thing. It has never been so because Jackson isn't a retard. Why would Mj,shaq,Kobe not be taking the most shots? I could of sworn that produced 10 chips. Also you change playstyle if your team needs it like Pop did with the Spurs. Duncan was taking the most shots early on until he got old. Your surposed to find the best way to make your team run efficiently. Magic was a passer so Pat riley set up a system for that. The knicks had no real offensive player other then ewing so they relied on that and defense. He got Wade and Shaq they were taking all the shots because Riley knows that was best

[Duffy Pratt]

The Bulls routinely averaged 20+asts and it was equal opportunity. Mj was just the most fit to take the most shots. He got 6 rongs from that the most important thing. It has never been so because Jackson isn't a retard. Why would Mj,shaq,Kobe not be taking the most shots? I could of sworn that produced 10 chips. Also you change playstyle if your team needs it like Pop did with the Spurs. Duncan was taking the most shots early on until he got old. Your surposed to find the best way to make your team run efficiently. Magic was a passer so Pat riley set up a system for that. The knicks had no real offensive player other then ewing so they relied on that and defense. He got Wade and Shaq they were taking all the shots because Riley knows that was best

First off, every championship team has averaged 20+ assists. The Bulls teams were at just over 25 assists per game for their six year run. The Rockets, in their two championship years, were at 25.1 and 25.5. So being above 20 is not special at all for a championship team, and 25 or so was a little below Magic's Lakers, slightly above Isiah's Pistons, and well below the 29 APG of the 86 Celtics.

Second, the number of assists a team generates does not indicate that the offense is equal opportunity. A simple example: the Stockton/Malone pick and roll offense generated about 25 APG (only looked at 97-98), but it was not equal opportunity at all. And, by the way, it produced only three guys averaging in double figures. If you had an offense that continually ran Reggie Miller around a ton of screens, that might generate a lot of assists, but it wouldn't be equal opportunity.

I didn't say Jackson was stupid. Nor that he was in any way a bad coach. I only said that his offenses were not equal opportunity. Rather, they were properly designed to give the lion's share of the shooting opportunities to the best players. If he were looking to design a truly equal opportunity offense, he never would have had a player like Rodman.

Going back to 1960, there have been 10 championship teams that have only had three players to average double figures. Seven of them were coached by Phil. The other three are the Spurs from 07 and 99, and the 2012 Heat.

There have been nine championship teams with four guys averaging double figures. Of those, two of them are the other Miami Heat teams, two are the 03 and 06 Spurs. And the other two are Phil's remaining Bulls teams.

So, take away Jackson, Riley's Heat, and Pop, and there are a grand total of two championship teams in NBA history that had fewer than five guys average in double figures. (Props to anyone who can guess which two.)

Having three guys put up double figures does not make for equal opportunity offense. By contrast, there have only been seven teams to have seven guys average double figures: the 87 and 88 Lakers, the 79 Sonics, and four of Russell's teams from the sixties (60, 63, 66, and 68).

To fill things out, ten teams have managed to have six guys in double figures, most recently the 14 Spurs. And 16 teams have had five guys average double figures, most recently last years Warriors.

[juju151111]

First off, every championship team has averaged 20+ assists. The Bulls teams were at just over 25 assists per game for their six year run. The Rockets, in their two championship years, were at 25.1 and 25.5. So being above 20 is not special at all for a championship team, and 25 or so was a little below Magic's Lakers, slightly above Isiah's Pistons, and well below the 29 APG of the 86 Celtics.

Second, the number of assists a team generates does not indicate that the offense is equal opportunity. A simple example: the Stockton/Malone pick and roll offense generated about 25 APG (only looked at 97-98), but it was not equal opportunity at all. And, by the way, it produced only three guys averaging in double figures. If you had an offense that continually ran Reggie Miller around a ton of screens, that might generate a lot of assists, but it wouldn't be equal opportunity.

I didn't say Jackson was stupid. Nor that he was in any way a bad coach. I only said that his offenses were not equal opportunity. Rather, they were properly designed to give the lion's share of the shooting opportunities to the best players. If he were looking to design a truly equal opportunity offense, he never would have had a player like Rodman.

Going back to 1960, there have been 10 championship teams that have only had three players to average double figures. Seven of them were coached by Phil. The other three are the Spurs from 07 and 99, and the 2012 Heat.

There have been nine championship teams with four guys averaging double figures. Of those, two of them are the other Miami Heat teams, two are the 03 and 06 Spurs. And the other two are Phil's remaining Bulls teams.

So, take away Jackson, Riley's Heat, and Pop, and there are a grand total of two championship teams in NBA history that had fewer than five guys average in double figures. (Props to anyone who can guess which two.)

Having three guys put up double figures does not make for equal opportunity offense. By contrast, there have only been seven teams to have seven guys average double figures: the 87 and 88 Lakers, the 79 Sonics, and four of Russell's teams from the sixties (60, 63, 66, and 68).

To fill things out, ten teams have managed to have six guys in double figures, most recently the 14 Spurs. And 16 teams have had five guys average double figures, most recently last years Warriors.
Exactly it depends on the team and whqt they have. Phil can do it, but the team he had didn't need it.

My point was its not like the Bulls team wasn't running a great offense with ball movement.

[Duffy Pratt]

Exactly it depends on the team and whqt they have. Phil can do it, but the team he had didn't need it.

My point was its not like the Bulls team wasn't running a great offense with ball movement.

We basically agree. I would say that rather than the team not needing it, Phil put in an offense that could work for a team and still satisfy the huge egos of guys like Jordan, Kobe and Shaq. Not only did those teams not need more balanced scoring, but it would have probably hurt the team to insist on a more balanced approach.

[3ball]

and we will never know whether MJ would have sacrificed his scoring for a championship.


The Bulls wouldn't have won a single ring if he had.. The Bulls won rings BECAUSE he scored so much.

Oh wait - you think Pippen would have picked up the slack if MJ had scored less?... Pippen's max capacity was 22/9/6 in 1994 without MJ - that's the same as the 21/8/7 he did in 1992.. So Pippen was already playing to capacity alongside MJ - this is statistical fact.

Think of it this way - MJ has the goat stats of any player in history - this means he had to produce more to win his rings than any player in history.

Here's more facts - MJ led the NBA in scoring for every championship the Bulls won - and it was all needed to win... For example, in 1993 Finals, both teams remarkably averaged EXACTLY 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ORtg - so every ounce of MJ's 41/9/6 on 51% was needed.
.

[3ball]

Here's Broussard talking about how the high volume affected Lebron's shooting in the 2015:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yWP6hw82O8s&t=02m06s


Lebron isn't good at the additional mid-range and iso's required of high volume shooting - there's only so many 3's and layups available

[stalkerforlife]

Another one.

[And1AllDay]

Here's Broussard talking about how the high volume affected Lebron's shooting in the 2015:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yWP6hw82O8s&t=02m06s


Lebron isn't good at the additional mid-range and iso's required of high volume shooting - there's only so many 3's and layups available

Everyone knows Mike scores alot but his passing, rebounding, and defense all suffer and he scores on less efficiency then LeBron hence...a tall Iverson

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