Did Kawhi Leonard deserve DPoY?

[Fire Colangelo]

Did he really have more impact on defense than Tim Duncan?

[juju151111]

Did he really have more impact on defense than Tim Duncan?
For the games he played in the RS yes. He played like thrash in the playoffs tho.

[ZMonkey11]

For the games he played in the RS yes. He played like thrash in the playoffs tho.

Thrash must have been a helluva defender.

[Foster5k]

Still better than Iggy winning Finals MVP over Curry.

[rmt]

For the games he played in the RS yes. He played like thrash in the playoffs tho.

Seeing as 39 year old Duncan played 13 more RS games than 23 year old KL, I think Duncan's defensive impact was greater than KL's for the Spurs. Duncan's played 33 more games in the past 3 seasons than Leonard. It's a damned shame that Duncan never won DPOY. Wonder how Duncan really feels about him anchoring the Spurs defense all these years and no DPOY but Leonard gets it for playing 64 games. I suspect it was awarded partly for his work on Lebron in 2014 Finals.

[dubeta]

I suspect it was awarded partly for his work on Lebron in 2014 Finals.

Holding LeBron to 28ppg on 70% TS is DPOY worthy? :lol

[rmt]

Holding LeBron to 28ppg on 70% TS is DPOY worthy? :lol

It got him FMVP, didn't it?

[dhsilv]

Green or Gobert were by FAR the two best defenders last year. Duncan once again was the best sprus defender but the league decided to hype a wing on his own team over him. I'll never understand the people who vote. Then again these are the same weird polls and results that allowed Marc Gasol to win defensive player of the year and then make second team all defense. :confusedshrug:

[kennethgriffin]

the best defensive player in the nba is deandre jordan


15 rpg
2.5 blocks per game
wilt chamberlain type athleticism

and he just signed a max contract based solely on his defense/rebounding

its obvious hes more valuable on defense than leonard.




kawhi or anthony davis are the next best though

[Fire Colangelo]

Seeing as 39 year old Duncan played 13 more RS games than 23 year old KL, I think Duncan's defensive impact was greater than KL's for the Spurs. Duncan's played 33 more games in the past 3 seasons than Leonard. It's a damned shame that Duncan never won DPOY. Wonder how Duncan really feels about him anchoring the Spurs defense all these years and no DPOY but Leonard gets it for playing 64 games. I suspect it was awarded partly for his work on Lebron in 2014 Finals.

I was thinking of the exact same thing, but just wanted somebody else's perspective on it as well.

Leonard is a great defender, but his defense is overrated IMO. I think Duncan was more important to the Spurs defense than Kawhi was last season.

Not to mention Leonard didn't really "shut down" LeBron in 2014 either... I think he got FMVP mainly due to him going off from game 3-5.

[Smoke117]

the best defensive player in the nba is deandre jordan


15 rpg
2.5 blocks per game
wilt chamberlain type athleticism

and he just signed a max contract based solely on his defense/rebounding

its obvious hes more valuable on defense than leonard.




kawhi or anthony davis are the next best though

http://replygif.net/i/154.gif

How can someone who watches (at least he says he does) so much basketball...know so little about said sport? Though...I can't say I'm really surprised you named the guy who is the most OVERRATED defensive player in the league as the best. Gotta love the reasoning too...15rpg, 2.5bpg. You literally say NOTHING about players and how they actually play. I'm pretty sure you have a really low IQ. I've probably killed more brain cells with alcohol than you have ever had.

[Tking714]

I was thinking of the exact same thing, but just wanted somebody else's perspective on it as well.

Leonard is a great defender, but his defense is overrated IMO. I think Duncan was more important to the Spurs defense than Kawhi was last season.

Not to mention Leonard didn't really "shut down" LeBron in 2014 either... I think he got FMVP mainly due to him going off from game 3-5.

It's a jordan-pippen thing, both great on D. I think he's rated fine, but he just gets the perimeter assignments in a perimeter heavy league. Granted Duncan does just as much, it's just the personnel they get matched with night to night.

[Lebron23]

It got him FMVP, didn't it?


Are you really a woman?? Post your pics in this thread.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=164725&page=527

[Fire Colangelo]

http://replygif.net/i/154.gif

How can someone who watches (at least he says he does) so much basketball...know so little about said sport? Though...I can't say I'm really surprised you named the guy who is the most OVERRATED defensive player in the league as the best. Gotta love the reasoning too...15rpg, 2.5bpg. You literally say NOTHING about players and how they actually play. I'm pretty sure you have a really low IQ. I've probably killed more brain cells with alcohol than you have ever had.

Overrated as hell.

Two 1st team all defensive teamers on the Clippers and they're rated 15th defensively. :lol

AD falls in the same category as DJ right now in terms of defensive impact, he's not quite DPoY material yet.

[kennethgriffin]

Overrated as hell.

Two 1st team all defensive teamers on the Clippers and they're rated 15th defensively. :lol

AD falls in the same category as DJ right now in terms of defensive impact, he's not quite DPoY material yet.


reason #1,405,562 why to never trust analytics



what offensive rating did the lakers have when kobe was averaging 35ppg in 2006



theyed have to be #1 in the nba right!? cause kobe was the best scorer. so the lakers had to be the best !

:oldlol:

[dubeta]

reason #1,405,562 why to never trust analytics



what offensive rating did the lakers have when kobe was averaging 35ppg in 2006



theyed have to be #1 in the nba right!? cause kobe was the best scorer. so the lakers had to be the best !

:oldlol:


lol Kobe shot 45% from the field

he wasnt the best scorer in the league that season

[kennethgriffin]

lol Kobe shot 45% from the field

he wasnt the best scorer in the league that season


who was the best scorer in the 2015 finals

[Tking714]

lol Kobe shot 45% from the field

he wasnt the best scorer in the league that season

who was?

[dubeta]

who was?

1. LeBron (31.4ppg on 48%)

2. A.I (33 ppg on 40%)

3. Wade

4. Kobe

[kennethgriffin]

1. LeBron (31.4ppg on 48%)

2. A.I (33 ppg on 40%)

3. Wade

4. Kobe


who was the best scorer in the 2015 finals?

[dubeta]

who was the best scorer in the 2015 finals?

1. LeBron 36 ppg on 40%

2. Curry 26 ppg on 46%

3. Iggy 16 ppg



LeBron was still the best scorer since he scored 40% more than Curry, so a slight reduction in FG% doesnt matter



Meanwhile Kobe only scored 4 points more than LeBron, not a big deal, especially when he was statpadding vs. lottery teams and shooting 45% from the field


LeBron was the better scorer in 2006


and he was the best scorer in the 2015 finals


But you'll never understand it.

[kennethgriffin]

1. LeBron 36 ppg on 40%

2. Curry 26 ppg on 46%

3. Iggy 16 ppg



LeBron was still the best scorer since he scored 40% more than Curry, so a slight reduction in FG% doesnt matter



Meanwhile Kobe only scored 4 points more than LeBron, not a big deal, especially when he was statpadding vs. lottery teams and shooting 45% from the field


LeBron was the better scorer in 2006


and he was the best scorer in the 2015 finals


But you'll never understand it.


and all lebron has to show for his top notch scoring during the 2015 nba finals is.......




















his uncircumcised little baby dick

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/609180789339766785/vhZ2dA9m.jpg

[dhsilv]

It's a jordan-pippen thing, both great on D. I think he's rated fine, but he just gets the perimeter assignments in a perimeter heavy league. Granted Duncan does just as much, it's just the personnel they get matched with night to night.

Duncan defends the paint...it's not really a match up thing.

[Tking714]

1. LeBron (31.4ppg on 48%)

2. A.I (33 ppg on 40%)

3. Wade

4. Kobe

Lebron has a case. Wade was efficient but didn't put the volume that the other guys put up so it's moot. Wade was a tier below with melo; both had weak 3point shots. Kobe put up way more points than Wade with a sharp 3point %

Kobe was sharper from 3 but, Lebron has a case. still 4 ppg more is no joke when ur in the 30ppg range.

[Tking714]

Duncan defends the paint...it's not really a match up thing.

that's what im saying. Kawhi gets stuck gaurding the perimeter in one of the strongest perimeter eras; so I can see why he gets a bump

[Fire Colangelo]

reason #1,405,562 why to never trust analytics



what offensive rating did the lakers have when kobe was averaging 35ppg in 2006



theyed have to be #1 in the nba right!? cause kobe was the best scorer. so the lakers had to be the best !

:oldlol:

It's not analytics.... it's the fact that they're unable to get stops when they really need to like the good defensive teams do.

Looking at all the past DPoYs... most of them led a top 10 defensive team. Obviously there are exceptions, but 90% of them did. I don't know why you want to change the criteria all of a sudden.

First of all, Kobe was the best scorer, but it can be argued whether or not he was the best offensive player. I think he was, but I wouldn't be upset if anyone had Nash, LeBron, Dirk, etc as better offensive players.

Dantley was hell of a scorer, but there's a lot of people I'd take ahead of him offensively. Hell, Magic is considered as the best offensive player ever, and he's scored maybe half of Kobe's points. PPG isn't the only measure to offense...

Second, it's unfair to bring up the 2006 Lakers, since that team was basically Kobe + Odom + scrubs. Odom, while a very good player, is far from an elite offensive player. You can put Wilt or Jordan on that 2006 Lakers team and have him average 50 and you won't have a top 10 offense.

If you paired up Kobe with another elite offensive player like.... KD or Amare for example, you'll get a far better offense. Similar to the Miami Heat from 11-14 and the Thunder from 11-15 when they had two elite offensive players on the team.

If you don't have a top 10 offense with two elite offensive players.... well...... then maybe they just aren't that "elite".

That's the problem with the Clippers right now...

Looking at the Clippers, they have two "elite" defensive players in Deandre Jordan and Chris Paul.... And they still can't lead them to a top 10 defense. And it's not like they got scrubs on the rest of the team either.

Elite defenders like KG, Ben Wallace, Dwight, etc can instantly transform a team defensively. Deandre Jordan.... is far from elite, at least for now.

[rmt]

Are you really a woman?? Post your pics in this thread.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=164725&page=527

Yes, I really am. But you don't want to see any pic of my middle-aged self. I'm so old that I don't even know how to post a pic/video. Someone helped me out in the Manu thread.


Overrated as hell.

Two 1st team all defensive teamers on the Clippers and they're rated 15th defensively. :lol

AD falls in the same category as DJ right now in terms of defensive impact, he's not quite DPoY material yet.

Reminds me of Camby winning DPOY in 2007 while the Nuggets were middle of the pack in defense. Voters dazzled by him swatting shots off the court instead of looking at impact. Duncan shoulda gotten it that year.

[Fire Colangelo]

Reminds me of Camby winning DPOY in 2007 while the Nuggets were middle of the pack in defense. Voters dazzled by him swatting shots off the court instead of looking at impact. Duncan shoulda gotten it that year.

Yup, I remember I was so glad when Tyson Chandler got the award over Ibaka in 2012 as well. Ibaka was averaging some ridiculous block numbers but I'm glad they got it right with Chandler.

[Tking714]

Yup, I remember I was so glad when Tyson Chandler got the award over Ibaka in 2012 as well. Ibaka was averaging some ridiculous block numbers but I'm glad they got it right with Chandler.

yea wtf happened to Ibaka? He was getting compared to ben wallace

[Fire Colangelo]

yea wtf happened to Ibaka? He was getting compared to ben wallace

He was never a great defender to begin with (in terms of team defense, low post defense, communication, etc), he was a great leaper with good timing for blocking shots.

Once the teams scouted him more and noticed his tendency to go for litearllyevery block, I guess guys started to utilize the pump fake more and adjusted to Ibaka whenever they played.

[Spurs m8]

LMA owns Ibaka

[AnaheimLakers24]

Duncan vampires devaluing kwahii once again. Pathetic

[pauk]

He did, i just was surprised like i always was surprised when the voters/media/nba actually give it to some perimeter defender instead of one of those trees under the basket.... but also surprised because i dont understand why some other perimeter defenders who in many cases were better defenders never won it in similar circumstances, some would like to say to heavy competition from the bigs, but Kawhi had that aswell.

[Naero]

Holding LeBron to 28ppg on 70% TS is DPOY worthy? :lol

Most who administered the eye test that year know that apart from LeBron's quarterly outburst, he registered most of his points in garbage time and when he had a more porous match-up on him

[Fire Colangelo]

He did, i just was surprised like i always was surprised when the voters/media/nba actually give it to some perimeter defender instead of one of those trees under the basket.... but also surprised because i dont understand why some other perimeter defenders who in many cases were better defenders never won it in similar circumstances, some would like to say to heavy competition from the bigs, but Kawhi had that aswell.

DPoY is a really hard award to give out to.

Obviously perimeter players can be defensive beasts as well, but in terms of impact, the big men will have more impact on defense 9.9 out of 10.

I mean, yeah guys like Gary Payton, Michael Cooper, Ron Artest (just to name a few) were elite perimeter defenders. But did Michael Cooper really have more impact defensively than say.. Hakeem? Was Payton more impactful than DRob or Ewing... or even Kemp? Artest over Garnett, Duncan or Wallace in terms of overall impact?

[Fire Colangelo]

Most who administered the eye test that year know that apart from LeBron's quarterly outburst, he registered most of his points in garbage time and when he had a more porous match-up on him—when Kawhi Leonard wasn't his defensive assignee, in other words. The stat sheet doesn't highlight Leonard's defensive impact when the totality of those points and field-goal percentages were registered under other defenders' coverages.

LeBron is self-admittedly terrified about "failure" and dreads inefficient shooting, and he had a more auspicious environment to avert those demons when he was allowed to cherry-pick in Miami; that inclination was epitomized with his scoring output in that year's finals, as he was tentative to score to stop the bleeding throughout most of the series. The 2014 Finals MVP may not have impacted his scoring efficience tremendously in those finals, but much of that is because it was precluded by the fact that LeBron went into LePassive mode when Leonard was guarding him—apart from transitional points and when he engendered defensive-coverage P&R switchovers.

In a way that the basic stat sheet can't illustrate, Leonard did stymie James because he closed the doors James felt confident in attacking when his scoring output was needed the most.

His defensive work likely would have engrossed more recognition in the 2013 finals, wherein LeBron shot 41.5% until his fourth-quarter outburst in Game 6 and demons-slain Game 7 (a game where coach Popovich implored the sag-off defense on him, I might add), but his previous struggles—much of which Leonard is attributable for—in the series were obscured in the rear-view mirror by the recency effect of Game 7.

If I remember correctly, LeBron sat out most 4th quarters in 2014 because the games were such blowouts.

AND if I remember correctly, LeBron went for 14 and 19 in the first quarter of game 3 and 5.... and the Spurs still led by half time.

So where is statpadding in garbage time you speak of?

But yeah, I guess I know what you're trying to say. It'd be nice if LeBron can score 15 every quarter instead of having quarterly outbursts... If he can play lock down defense and get 4-5 boards while dishing out 3-4 assists, that would be a bonus too.

[FKAri]

who was the best scorer in the 2015 finals?

LeGod

[bdreason]

Should've been DrayGod.

[Gileraracer]

Leonard was good but not the best defender.

[Genaro]

I think Bogut was the best but as he played not many games, I think Dray Green deserved it. I was acc surprised at the time since I thought DJ would win (witch I disagree, since he is kinda overrated as people said)

[dhsilv]

that's what im saying. Kawhi gets stuck gaurding the perimeter in one of the strongest perimeter eras; so I can see why he gets a bump

The game still remains about protecting the paint first and foremost. We've just added the fun of chasing people away from the 3 point line. There have always been dynamic scorers on the outside, but as we've shown over the last few years 20+, 25+, and 30+ scorers are all declining. The value of a guy guarding a single player one on one has declined.

Now if the argument is he's an elite defender through the use of zone and guarding an area, that's not one I've heard, but I'd be interested in if that's the case and why you think so. I haven't picked up on it myself, but wouldn't put it past being true.

[Naero]

If I remember correctly, LeBron sat out most 4th quarters in 2014 because the games were such blowouts.

AND if I remember correctly, LeBron went for 14 and 19 in the first quarter of game 3 and 5.... and the Spurs still led by half time.

So where is statpadding in garbage time you speak of?

But yeah, I guess I know what you're trying to say. It'd be nice if LeBron can score 15 every quarter instead of having quarterly outbursts... If he can play lock down defense and get 4-5 boards while dishing out 3-4 assists, that would be a bonus too.

I will contextualize and adduce it then, but I want to preface to you that my posts have been geared more towards legitimizing Kawhi Leonard's recognition for his defensive work on LeBron James more so than assumedly disparaging comments towards the latter.

Out of the 141 points that LeBron notched in the finals, 51 of them (35.4% of them) were registered when the Spurs led by 15+ points. Let's not espouse the posit that LeBron was simply thrown into the battlefield after it was already blown open; with the exception of the fourth-quarter cramping in Game 1, he was on the floor for most of Spurs' momentum-heavy runs, which would have been the most opportune time for him to score—to stop the proverbial bleeding.

Leonard covered him for most of the time the Spurs made their runs; let's not discount that. Due to LeBron's cherry-picking in the finals, efficiency is poorly illustrative of his defensive impact as much as the effectivity of LeBron while guarded by the 2014 Finals MVP.

LeBron saw his touches and field-goal attempts drop 10% and 14%, respectively, while Leonard guarded him; that means that while LeBron didn't harm his team with shot-jackery (he still shot 57.6% on Leonard), he did inhibit his team's runs with the passivity he's shown while Leonard guarded him—his biggest shortcoming of his finals performances apart from 2012 and 2015, akin to 2011 where he froze up and was sorely missing at critical junctures. When he registers his points may count the same on paper, but teams aren't computerized entities; psychology is apart of the game, and when teams go on run without anyone stepping up to stop the bleeding and make their own run, that impacts their morale for the worst.

In addition to the relatively impactless scoring addressed, LeBron's biggest strength—his playmaking flair that has drawn parallels to Magic Johnson—was clamped by Leonard, as LeBron had a net-zero assist-to-turnover ratio. By impenetrably obstructing LeBron's drive better than anyone else donning a Spurs uniform, we never saw the aftereffect of driving in scrambling the defense and opening up the comfort zones of his other teammates, who weren't as lavished of beneficiaries of his playmaking as they were accustomed to on other coverage.

That theme was epitomized in a pivotal Game 3, wherein after LeBron's first-quarter 14-point outburst, he went on to only register 8 points—six of which came when the Heat offense liberated LeBron from Leonard via pick'n'roll play, and that time also overlapped with when his team made a run to cut the deficit to 7 points before collapsing insurmountably once again, where James seemed disengaged. James had trouble looking elsewhere for contributions, as he registered 7 turnovers.

His defensive work can be summarized by the notion that LeBron was discouraged to score while Leonard was covering him, which was just as effective of defense as to forcing LeBron to brick-lay when he passed it to a supporting cast that collectively shot 43.7%, and he also emasculated LeBron's biggest strength in playmaking.

Bottom line is that I'm not trying to denigrate LeBron for his 2014 Finals performance; I don't see how it needs to be misconstrued as such, as I've been trying to emphasize Kawhi's defensive work as opposed to the bigger shortcomings of LeBron that I haven't raised up from that series. While I don't believe his performance was nearly as good as advertised on series (partly due to what I've contextualized above), I think he had a good series scoring-wise—in fact, his most jumpshot-efficient finals.

The problem is that many use superficialities (basic stats) to discredit Leonard's performance, and as it pertains to LeBron's mold in the context, there sadly is no commendatory way to debunk those. Take what defensive stance you will against my comment, but don't try to misrepresent it as me denigrating LeBron as opposed to praising Leonard; those straw-man arguments will never prevail.

[Fire Colangelo]

[QUOTE=Naero]I will contextualize and adduce it then, but I want to preface to you that my posts have been geared more towards legitimizing Kawhi Leonard's recognition for his defensive work on LeBron James more so than assumedly disparaging comments towards the latter.

[B]Out of the 141 points that LeBron notched in the finals, 51 of them (35.4% of them) were registered when the Spurs led by 15+ points. Let's not espouse the posit that LeBron was simply thrown into the battlefield after it was already blown open; with the exception of the fourth-quarter cramping in Game 1, he was on the floor for most of Spurs' momentum-heavy runs, which would have been the most opportune time for him to score

[Hamtaro CP3KDKG]

Tony Allen was the best defender in basketball last season. Draymond was 2nd, Gobert was 3rd.

Kawhi is overrated dude got torched on both ends against Clips. CP3 exposed him and ate his food on those high screen and rolls:lol

[Spurs m8]

He had a bad game or two in one series, doesn't downplay what he did the rest of the year.

You like cp3 though, so I get why you have such a one dimensional view tbh

[Naero]

Not only is the 2014 finals completely irrelevant of Leonard receiving DPoY in 2015, well at least it should be. But the bolded is what I have a problem with.

You do realize outside of game of 1 and 2, the Heat were down 15 pretty much after the first half of not the first quarter? Tell me, what's Lebron supposed to do? Sit out the game so he wouldn't get accused of scoring in garbage time?

Apart from the fourth-quarter cramping in Game 1, the Spurs didn't mount their lead while he was on the bench; he was on the floor, and he was too tentative to shoot and a bit on the awry side with his playmaking while Leonard covered him. The complexion of the game would have changed had he not been guarded by Leonard, who was the biggest obstructor to LeBron stopping the bleeding.

Either way, I feel the need reiterate that these points are NOT being presented as an indictment to LeBron. I'm just trying to expound on downplayed Leonard's defensive impact that series, and the most effective way of explaining a player's greatness in any competition-oriented realm is by explicating how it came at the expense of an adversary's greatness. Considering that your responses have been more inclined to defending LeBron than addressing Leonard's impact, I can only assume you're misinferring that I'm trying to depreciate LeBron.

Also, I'm not constructing this argument to validate Leonard's DPoY award; I honestly disagree with it myself, as even fellow perimeter-oriented defender Jimmy Butler

[T_L_P]

Bogut was the best defensive player in the league last year but he missed quite a few games, so he was probably never going to get it. I had no problem with Kawhi winning it, but I'd have rather seen Gobert win if Bogut couldn't.

He did get absolutely burned in the Clippers series though, and it's proof of why wings simply can't impact the defense the same way elite bigs can - the bigs don't need a certain matchup to impact the D, wings like Leonard do.

[DMV2]

Come to think of it, Leonard stole 2014 Finals MVP and 2015 DOTY from Duncan. :oldlol:

I dont know about the DOTY but I honestly thought could have been FMVP for being way more consistent. Khawi was bad in the first two games if you remember correctly.

[Spurs5Rings2014]

Come to think of it, Leonard stole 2014 Finals MVP and 2015 DOTY from Duncan. :oldlol:

I dont know about the DOTY but I honestly thought could have been FMVP for being way more consistent. Khawi was bad in the first two games if you remember correctly.

Don't remind me.

:coleman:

Also choked horribly in the 2013 finals Game 6 and missed multiple free throws when one would of iced it, so in reality Duncan could be sitting at 6/6 with 5 FMVP and 1 DPOY if not for Sugar K....

:banghead:

[GabeIsGone]

Don't remind me.

:coleman:

Also choked horribly in the 2013 finals Game 6 and missed multiple free throws when one would of iced it, so in reality Duncan could be sitting at 6/6 with 5 FMVP and 1 DPOY if not for Sugar K....

:banghead:
http://memecrunch.com/meme/3TB1Q/kawhi-me-a-river/image.png