Best combination of Scoring and Passing in NBA history?

[dubeta]

Who you got?


Criteria is you have to at least have a 27 PPG career average, to go on with 6-7 assists a game


Discuss

[Derka]

Getting assists =\= great passing.

[GoatBoy]

Take away your foolish criteria, and i'll go with Larry Bird

[Sarcastic]

Probably Jerry West.

[ClipperRevival]

Larry Bird.

[GIF REACTION]

Larry Bird.
Nope

Adjust for pace, he comes up short

[ShawkFactory]

Bird.

Could have averaged 30 a game every year if he wanted to.

[dubeta]

Guys, Bird averaged 24.3 and 6 throughout his career


Stop it.. You're making me laugh :oldlol:

[Dr Hawk]

Larry Bird and there is no one even close

[imdaman99]

I'll take the goat SF, Larry Bird.

[HoopologyPhD]

Oscar Robertson

[HOoopCityJones]

Magic Johnson

[sd3035]

Larry Bird, Steph Curry

[LAZERUSS]

Nate Archibald led the league in both categories one season.
34 ppg and 11 apg.

[Alamо]

Larry Bird, Curry

[9erempiree]

I'm going with the consensus in Kobe Bryant. Lifetime 30/6 guy. That is 30k/5k and the primary playmaker/PG on 5 championship team.

He ran the triangle to perfection.

[AnaheimLakers24]

Gotta go bird

[AnaheimLakers24]

So its settled op
We all choose bird. Greatest sf ever

[bdreason]

Honorable mention to Zeke.

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

Best Passing + Scoring Combined?

Ai's gotta be there too.

[Fallen Angel]

James Harden

[zeerghit]

Pg Osar
Sg Ginobili
Sf Bird
Pf Magic
C Walton Or Big Arvydas

[SHAQisGOAT]

OP getting smoked :oldlol:

[Nuff Said]

Westbrook deserves a nod. Dude's a beast.

[Harison]

Bird, obviously.

[Smoke117]

Larry Bird.

[G0ATbe]

Kobe and then Bird.

[GrapeApe]

Jordan certainly deserves a mention.

[TheMan]

Larry Bird
Nate Archibald
Oscar Robertson

I can't think of anyone else...

[Beastmode88]

Bird seems to be the unanimous decision.

[Young X]

Let's see, it's really just Bird and Oscar...oh yeah Jordan too. Really can't think of anyone else.

[dhsilv]

Who you got?


Criteria is you have to at least have a 27 PPG career average, to go on with 6-7 assists a game


Discuss

Per game stats? 90 called, they want their stats back!

[SHAQisGOAT]

Probably Bird, yea...

Shooting, post-game, use of both hands from up close, finishing skills inside, iso ability, off-ball play, offensive rebounding... Look at some of the defenders he was killing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msEmcemLR7M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksp82aw-jqg

And he's a top10 greatest passer ever, the GOAT passing non-PG... Doing this type of shit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o66NdFDHEQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gqDadqF3Ns

HM: Oscar, LeBron, Kobe, Jordan, West, Pistol Pete, Iverson, Tiny, T-Mac, Magic, Kevin Johnson, Curry, Westbrook...

[ArbitraryWater]

Getting assists =\= great passing.

But he took LeBron so he's an even better passer than his APG would have you believe.


Let's see, it's really just Bird and Oscar...oh yeah Jordan too. Really can't think of anyone else.

LeBron is a better scorer than Bird and Oscar :facepalm

[dhsilv]

Just for fun.

Min 500 minutes and 48 games (was thinking about 99 or I"d have done 50 Iverson bot the benefit in 2004 so my bad). Per 100 stats used more than 30 points per 100 and more than 8 assists per 100.

29 players made the list. Play and number of times they made the list.

LeBron James 10
Dwyane Wade 6
Allen Iverson 5
Tony Parker 5
Larry Bird* 4
Russell Westbrook 3
Stephen Curry 3
Kyrie Irving 3
Michael Jordan* 2
Tracy McGrady 2
Derrick Rose 2
Terrell Brandon 2
Grant Hill 2
Sam Cassell 2
James Harden 1
Clyde Drexler* 1
Stephon Marbury 1
Paul Westphal 1
Chris Paul 1
Isaiah Thomas 1
Michael Adams 1
Devin Harris 1
Gus Williams 1
Mark Price 1
Magic Johnson* 1
Anfernee Hardaway 1
Deron Williams 1
Baron Davis 1
Manu Ginobili 1


What does this mean? Nothing...nothing at all other than all these guys were good players. Also per 100 stats don't go back past 74 so clearly missing a few legends from the past.

[dubeta]

Just for fun.

Min 500 minutes and 48 games (was thinking about 99 or I"d have done 50 Iverson bot the benefit in 2004 so my bad). Per 100 stats used more than 30 points per 100 and more than 8 assists per 100.

29 players made the list. Play and number of times they made the list.

LeBron James 10
Dwyane Wade 6
Allen Iverson 5
Tony Parker 5
Larry Bird* 4
Russell Westbrook 3
Stephen Curry 3
Kyrie Irving 3
Michael Jordan* 2
Tracy McGrady 2
Derrick Rose 2
Terrell Brandon 2
Grant Hill 2
Sam Cassell 2
James Harden 1
Clyde Drexler* 1
Stephon Marbury 1
Paul Westphal 1
Chris Paul 1
Isaiah Thomas 1
Michael Adams 1
Devin Harris 1
Gus Williams 1
Mark Price 1
Magic Johnson* 1
Anfernee Hardaway 1
Deron Williams 1
Baron Davis 1
Manu Ginobili 1


What does this mean? Nothing...nothing at all other than all these guys were good players. Also per 100 stats don't go back past 74 so clearly missing a few legends from the past.


Shows that stats today are less inflated than past eras :applause:


Per 100 >>>

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt was EASILY the best scoring-passing big man in the history of the NBA. Led the league in assists while scoring 24 ppg (and the year before was third in apg at 7.8 apg while scoring 24 ppg on a .683 FG%.) And in '65-66 he led the NBA in scoring, at 33.5 ppg, while dishing out 5.2 apg.

The man was a triple-double machine, as well. The only player in NBA history to record nine straight triples (and had blocks been included, likely a ton of quads.) In fact, he missed 12 straight triple-doubles by ONE assist in that stretch. Oh, and he led the NBA in apg in the '67 playoffs, as well (all while putting up a 22-29-9 .579 FG% playoff run.)

[Young X]

But he took LeBron so he's an even better passer than his APG would have you believe.



LeBron is a better scorer than Bird and Oscar :facepalmYou don't get it :lol

[Mr. Jabbar]

How about LeThick James op? He "meats" your criteria, ALL of it.

[Prometheus]

I know it's the obvious answer, but I've got to go with Kobe.

[diamenz]

bird, no doubt.

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

Just add up Assists + Points Per 100:


1. Michael Jordan: 43.3 + 7.4 = 50.7
2. Lebron James 36.5 + 8.6 = 44.9


MJ's scoring edge is massive... Lebron's assist edge is tiny (non-existent actually, since he has higher turnovers)

[kennethgriffin]

http://www.bostonherald.com/sites/default/files/media/ap/7d72c08e51d84cb0a01afae08cb1c5d2.jpg

[dubeta]

:rolleyes:

Just add up Assists + Points Per 100:


1. Michael Jordan: 43.3 + 7.4 = 50.7
2. Lebron James 36.5 + 8.6 = 44.9


MJ's scoring edge is massive... Lebron's assist edge is tiny (non-existent actually, since he has higher turnovers)

An assist is worth more than a point

[kennethgriffin]

An assist is worth more than a point


how are those 2 things even comparable though

the only way to get an assist is off a field goal. which is 2-3 points minimum



an assist is only as valuable as the guy youre passing to..

in no way is an assist worth as much as the man directly responsible for the 2 points unless hes directly under the rim



even a guy wide open on a kick out has to still make the shot.


i've seen lebron brick a ton of open shots.


and theres no pressure to make a pass. if the other guy misses the shot. you don't get credited with a missed assist



like mark jackson said during the lakers wolves game. "i can go out there right now and get an assist"


at any age a slow fat loser can do that.


but tell mark jackson to go out and get a basket.. see what he says then





in the end your boi bran hurts teams by padding his assists. taking his teammates out of their comfort zones in order to make himself look better. he sacrificed love and bosh's games to make them spot up three point shooters.

[dubeta]

how are those 2 things even comparable though




Well, good thing LeBron averages Both MORE points and assists than Kobe in regular season, playoffs, finals, wherever


So it doesnt matter if they are comparable, since LeBron is anyway better than Kobe in both.

[tmacattack33]

The best i've seen in my time:

Penny
Grant Hill
Nash
Deron
CP3
Lebron

[3ball]

:rolleyes:

Just add up Assists + Points Per 100:


1. Michael Jordan: 43.3 + 7.4 = 50.7
2. Lebron James 36.5 + 8.6 = 44.9


MJ's scoring edge is massive... Lebron's assist edge is tiny (non-existent actually, since he has higher turnovers)





An assist is worth more than a point



MJ has a 7-point scoring advantage, which more than offsets his 1.2 assist deficit.

(MJ averaged 4.0 turnovers to Lebron's 4.5, which makes the assist stats equal anyway btw)

[3ball]

.
Playoffs Thru Age 30:


Jordan: 34.7 PPG.. 1.6 OREB.. 5.1 DREB.. 6.6 APG.. 2.3 SPG.. 1.0 BLK.. 25.4 FGA.. 50.1 FG%
Lebron: 28.2 PPG.. 1.5 OREB.. 7.2 DREB.. 6.7 APG.. 1.7 SPG.. 0.9 BLK.. 20.8 FGA.. 47.3 FG%


For their careers, MJ had a 6 point scoring edge (34 to 28) and 1.0 assist deficit (5.7 to 6.7)... The stats don't lie - MJ was the better scorer/passer.
.

[dubeta]

.
Playoffs Thru Age 30:


Jordan: 34.7 PPG.. 1.6 OREB.. 5.1 DREB.. 6.6 APG.. 2.3 SPG.. 1.0 BLK.. 25.4 FGA.. 50.1 FG%
Lebron: 28.2 PPG.. 1.5 OREB.. 7.2 DREB.. 6.7 APG.. 1.7 SPG.. 0.9 BLK.. 20.8 FGA.. 47.3 FG%


and for their careers, MJ had a 6 point scoring edge and 1.0 assist deficit... The stats don't lie - MJ was the better scorer/passer.


Career Playoffs per 100 possessions (not through age 30) ?

[GIF REACTION]

3ball reps slim jim condoms

[kennethgriffin]

Well, good thing LeBron averages Both MORE points and assists than Kobe in regular season, playoffs, finals, wherever


So it doesnt matter if they are comparable, since LeBron is anyway better than Kobe in both.


ya? so does allen iverson


and he just like lebron are regular season stat padding losers in the grandscape of things



http://cdn.slamonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/allen-iverson.jpg

[Young X]

Iverson is a legend.

[dhsilv]

MJ has a 7-point scoring advantage, which more than offsets his 1.2 assist deficit.

(MJ averaged 4.0 turnovers to Lebron's 4.5, which makes the assist stats equal anyway btw)

Just for fun.

Lets just take 1980 till now stats and we come up with the average made field goal is worth 2.11 points. Odds are strong that 3's are more assisted than 2's due to post game and isolation play. Not nearly as many guys just jacking it (happens of course). So lets go with 2.25 as our factor for value of assists.

Now lets do something a bit more fun.

Per 100 stats. But we take those stats multiply them by minutes played. We'll increase assists to 2.25 value and lets see who's assists + points is the best all time.

All this being typed out before doing the work.

http://i.imgur.com/JTSL2Pv.jpg

Not really a meaningful set of data, but no surprise who the top guys are and who repeat a lot. Of course we all know assists are not passing and they aren't all created the same. Guys like MJ and Kobe's are less valuable than Paul's. Meanwhile MJ's scoring at least was likely more valuable.

Still kinda cool list. Thanks for the idea.

[kennethgriffin]

Iverson is a legend.


ofcourse he is. but hes a loser


you can be a legend and lose allot


nash

baylor

barkley


legends


losers

[3ball]

Career Playoffs per 100 possessions (not through age 30) ?


JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts


The stats don't lie - MJ was the better scorer/passer.

Also, notice how MJ had better efficiency despite much higher shot volume.. This means he did exactly what Lebron did, but just more OF it - so just imagine Lebron..... doing MORE.... that's MJ.

[dhsilv]

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts


The stats don't lie - MJ was the better scorer/passer.

Also, notice how MJ had better efficiency despite much higher shot volume.. This means he did exactly what Lebron did, but just more OF it - so just imagine Lebron..... doing MORE.... that's MJ.

Where are the passing stats?

FYI using my simple math posted above.

Player Career Average Calc
Michael Jordan* 170,557
LeBron James 173,972


Slight career lead for Lebron on a weighted average basis. Again this is not a fair way to value passing as assists are NOT passing. They are created through passes, but they do not show all passing value.

[Young X]

Barkley had to go up against the Bulls.

[Cold soul]

Oscar Robertson

Magic Johnson

Larry Bird

Any of those three fit that mold perfectly.

[4 Inches]

Wilt was EASILY the best scoring-passing big man in the history of the NBA. Led the league in assists while scoring 24 ppg (and the year before was third in apg at 7.8 apg while scoring 24 ppg on a .683 FG%.) And in '65-66 he led the NBA in scoring, at 33.5 ppg, while dishing out 5.2 apg.

The man was a triple-double machine, as well. The only player in NBA history to record nine straight triples (and had blocks been included, likely a ton of quads.) In fact, he missed 12 straight triple-doubles by ONE assist in that stretch. Oh, and he led the NBA in apg in the '67 playoffs, as well (all while putting up a 22-29-9 .579 FG% playoff run.)
You know Wilt was statpadding that season grandpa

[3ball]

.
Lebron significantly lowers the APG and assist % of his teammates:

Wade apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game), 34.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:advanced)
Wade apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), 25.5% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Bosh apg and assist % before Lebron (04'-10'): 2.2, 10.5%
Bosh apg and assist % with... Lebron (11'-14'): 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game), .8.0% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:advanced)

Irving apg and assist % before Lebron (12'-14'): 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game), 33.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:advanced)
Irving apg and assist % with... Lebron (2015):... 5.2, 25.0%

Kevin Love apg and assist % in MIN: 2.5, 13.0%
Kevin Love apg and assist % in CLE:. 2.2, 10.7%

Mo Williams apg and assist % before Lebron: 6.3, 30.0%
Mo Williams apg and assist % with... Lebron: 4.1, 20.1%

FYI...

Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 91'-93': 6.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game), 24.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % w/out Jordan 94'-95': 5.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game), 23.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:advanced)
Pippen apg and assist % with.. Jordan 96'-98': 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game), 25.1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:advanced)

Source: basketball-reference.com


There's a reason the stats show Lebron lowering the assist capacity of his team - starting fives normally have only 1 ball-dominant, low-assisted player that teammates rarely throw assists to - the point guard.. But Lebron's point guard style from the forward position adds a 2nd low-assisted player that teammates can't throw assists to - he turns a normally high assisted forward position into a low assisted one, which lowers the assist capacity of the team relative to other teams whose forwards are highly-assisted.. Not surprisingly, Lebron's presence as an additional, low-assisted player didn't materially improve the assist frequency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446) of his Heat and Cavs teams.. Otoh, MJ was a highly-assisted, off-ball player, so his presence significantly increased the assist frequency of his teams, as the data linked above shows.

So it shouldn't be surprising that Lebron significantly reduces the APG and assist % of teammates - and he also increases their assisted rate - this proves Lebron's presence as an extra point guard turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers, thus preventing the kind of equal-opportunity offenses that the the Mavs, Spurs, Warriors, and 90's Bulls used (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&t=23m40s), where all 5 guys share the playmaking duties - since Lebron prevents the best brand of basketball, various equal or less-talented teams have pulled upsets by playing a better brand of basketball (2009, 2011, 2014)..

Ultimately, Lebron's stats lack integrity because he accumulates them at the expense of teammates.. His stat accumulation is also helped by employing a stat-friendly, easily-solvable, playground style, rather than trying to win.. His stat-friendly style is far less impressive than the superior, nuanced skill MJ needed to achieve stats within an equal-opportunity offense that can actually win.

[3ball]

.
Possessions per assist (higher number means less passing):


2014 Heat: 4.05
2013 Heat: 3.94
2012 Heat: 4.56
2011 Heat: 4.55
____________________
2010 Heat: 4.75
2009 Heat: 4.41
2008 Heat: 4.50

Avg. with LeBron: 4.27
Without LeBron: 4.55
____________________
0.18 improvement



2014 Cavs: 4.41
2013 Cavs: 4.47
2012 Cavs: 4.61
2011 Cavs: 4.43
_____________________
2010 Cavs: 4.08
2009 Cavs: 4.37
2008 Cavs: 4.51
2007 Cavs: 4.37
2006 Cavs: 4.72

With LeBron: 4.41
Without LeBron: 4.48
___________________
0.07 improvement



1998 Bulls: 3.74
1997 Bulls: 3.45
1996 Bulls: 3.67
1993 Bulls: 3.56
1992 Bulls: 3.40
1991 Bulls: 3.54
1990 Bulls: 3.65
1989 Bulls: 3.59
1988 Bulls: 3.65
1987 Bulls: 3.67
1985 Bulls: 4.09
____________________
1984 Bulls: 3.91
1983 Bulls: 4.18
1982 Bulls: 3.98
1981 Bulls: 4.28
1980 Bulls: 3.89
1979 Bulls: 3.88
1978 Bulls: 3.93
1977 Bulls: 4.12
1976 Bulls: 4.82
1975 Bulls: 4.45

With MJ: 3.64
Without MJ: 4.14
___________________
0.50 improvement



2015 GSW:.. 98.3/27.4 = 3.59
2014 Spurs:. 95.0/25.2 = 3.77
2011 Mavs:.. 91.3/23.8 = 3.84
2007 Spurs:. 89.8/22.1 = 4.06

1987 Lakers: 101.6/29.6 = 3.43
1986 Celtics: 102.1/29.1 = 3.47

Source: basketball-reference.com



Starting fives normally have only 1 ball-dominant, low-assisted player that teammates rarely throw assists to - the point guard.. But Lebron's point guard style from the forward position adds a 2nd low-assisted player that teammates can't throw assists to - he turns a normally high assisted forward position into a low assisted one, which lowers the assist capacity of the team relative to other teams whose forwards are highly-assisted.. Not surprisingly, Lebron's presence as an additional, low-assisted player didn't materially improve the assist frequency (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446) of his Heat and Cavs teams.. Otoh, MJ was a highly-assisted, off-ball player, so his presence significantly increased the assist frequency of his teams, as the data linked above shows.

No wonder MJ's role players never underperformed - his relentless off-ball game made it easier for teammates to playmake.


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/5-16-2015/NlRpyo.gif

[3ball]

Where are the passing stats?


APG is a good gauge of passing ability - the best gauge we have.

Also, as the previous post shows, it's a statistical fact that Lebron's presence didn't materially increase the assist frequency of his teams, whereas MJ's presence significantly increased the assist frequency of his teams.. This is statistical fact.

It's also statistical fact that Lebron significantly lowered the APG of Wade, Kyrie, Mo Williams, Love and Bosh, while MJ's teammates had their APG increase alongside him.

[pauk]

Statistically its Oscar Robertson, by very far... but the best ive SEEN is Lebron / Bird.

[3ball]

Statistically its Oscar Robertson, by very far... but the best ive SEEN is Lebron / Bird.
Lebron's career playoff average is 28/7 compared to MJ's 34/6 and less TO's.

That proves MJ is the better scorer/passer.. easily..

and if MJ had employed the same stat-friendly, losing, ball-dominant style Lebron uses, he would've averaged 9+ assists for his career.. but then he woudn't be 6/6... scoring + clutch > any stat category, especially for the #1 option.
.

[dhsilv]

APG is a good gauge of passing ability - the best gauge we have.

Also, as the previous post shows, it's a statistical fact that Lebron's presence didn't materially increase the assist frequency of his teams, whereas MJ's presence significantly increased the assist frequency of his teams.. This is statistical fact.

It's also statistical fact that Lebron significantly lowered the APG of Wade, Kyrie, Mo Williams, Love and Bosh, while MJ's teammates had their APG increase alongside him.

Assists are a terrible passing stat. They give favor to guys who pass out of double teams equaly to those who actually create plays. Not to mention they give no value to players who are able to keep a defense off balance once they've doubled by making the "extra pass" which is often multiple. It also doesn't penalize players who dribble up the court vs passing up the court (which is faster and allows plays to potentially again keep the defense off center).

As for the lebron thing, that's not relevant. Also unless he's lowering the team assist % as a whole, it's not meaningful.

[Young X]

CP3's 2009 regular season is one of the most impressive regular seasons ever to me, not just for guards but in general.

For him to be involved in over half of his team's buckets, while being THAT efficient, being a 1st team All NBA defender and leading the league in steals is amazing. He almost averaged 6 boards a game too. At 6 feet tall. At age 23.

[dhsilv]

CP3's 2009 regular season is one of the most impressive regular seasons ever to me, not just for guards but in general.

For him to be involved in over half of his team's buckets, while being THAT efficient, being a 1st team All NBA defender and leading the league in steals is amazing. He almost averaged 6 boards a game too. At 6 feet tall. At age 23.

His 2008 and 2009 years are among the best I've ever seen, heard of, and honestly could even imagine. Add in his turnover rates were insanely low given his ball dominance.

FYI I think Chris Paul is likely the answer to this question all be it, I kinda want to give it to Bird.

[3ball]

As for the lebron thing, that's not relevant. Also unless he's lowering the team assist % as a whole, it's not meaningful.


It's very meaningful that MJ's presence increased the assist frequency of his teams much more than Lebron did.

It's also meaningful that Lebron significantly lowered the APG of his teammates - this proves he achieved his APG by reducing the APG of teammates - this statistical fact - there's no way around it.. Meanwhile, MJ's teammates had their APG increase alongside him.

MJ's style fostered better teamwork, period... That's why he won with less help than Lebron ever won with - the 538 rankings of supporting casts rank MJ's 1991 and 1993 casts near the bottom of list, and far below, Lebron's 2012 and 2013 casts - this proves MJ won with less.

[knicksman]

if 2/6 is one of the criteria, then bran definitely

[dhsilv]

It's very meaningful that MJ's presence increased the assist frequency of his teams much more than Lebron did.

It's also meaningful that Lebron significantly lowered the APG of his teammates - this proves he achieved his APG by reducing the APG of teammates - this statistical fact - there's no way around it.. Meanwhile, MJ's teammates had their APG increase alongside him.

MJ's style fostered better teamwork, period... That's why he won with less help than Lebron ever won with - the 538 rankings of supporting casts rank MJ's 1991 and 1993 casts near the bottom of list, and far below, Lebron's 2012 and 2013 casts - this proves MJ won with less.

1. Not the topic of this thread.
2. Nobody cares about MJ or Lebron here.
3. The triangle, coaches, and differences in personnel are factors here.
4. Again nobody cares. You've posted this before, we all read it. It isn't a part of this thread.
5. you're an asshole. Stop calling me stupid by posting things you know i've seen. I'm not an idiot, I can read. I didn't find it meaningful then, I won't find it meaningful now. If you have actual VALUE add to go with it, like play by play data added to create a meaningful picture, go ahead. You're too smart to think I haven't seen this. Also stop using the colors and the bold....it's awful looking.

[pauk]

Lebron's career playoff average is 28/7 compared to MJ's 34/6 and less TO's.

That proves MJ is the better scorer/passer.. easily..

and if MJ had employed the same stat-friendly, losing, ball-dominant style Lebron uses, he would've averaged 9+ assists for his career.. but then he woudn't be 6/6... scoring + clutch > any stat category, especially for the #1 option.
.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT-zhe-5ORA

Stop it...

Jordan is GOAT and all, but not GOAT at every facet of the game....

[Young X]

His 2008 and 2009 years are among the best I've ever seen, heard of, and honestly could even imagine. Add in his turnover rates were insanely low given his ball dominance.

FYI I think Chris Paul is likely the answer to this question all be it, I kinda want to give it to Bird.Wade in 2009 as well. Those guys both had insane seasons.

[dhsilv]

Wade in 2009 as well. Those guys both had insane seasons.

Part of me wants to say 2009 (Lebron had an all time great season too) was just a weird rules change/refs issue/has to be a an outlier. But those are just 3 of the all time best players and all were having apex like seasons. I wish I'd watched more games that year, chris paul was HARD to see play that year. I recall every time I got to see him, just thinking "wow...he's mastered the art of making people better".

[knicksman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT-zhe-5ORA

Stop it...

Jordan is GOAT and all, but not GOAT at every facet of the game....

More like jordan isnt insecure that he needs to show off his skills through statpadding.

[Round Mound]

Big O and Pete Maravich should get more mentions...

[3ball]

I recall every time I got to see him, just thinking "wow...he's mastered the art of making people better".


Good thing you're talking about CP3 here and not Lebron.

Because in Lebron's case, it's a statistical fact that the APG of Wade, Kyrie, Mo Williams, Bosh and Love were all significantly lower alongside Lebron, while their assisted rate was higher - this proves he turned them from playmakers into play-finishers.

Turning teammates into play-finishers doesn't make them better as individuals, and it makes the team worse, since 1-playmaker teams < multiple playmaker teams.

[JebronLames]

LeBron "LeGoat" James

[3ball]

LeBron "LeGoat" James
.
Per 100 Possessions in Playoffs:


JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts


The stats don't lie - MJ was the better scorer/passer - no one matches his combination of points + assists except prime Oscar.

Also, notice how MJ had better efficiency despite much higher shot volume.. Maintaining equal efficiency at much higher volume means MJ did exactly what Lebron did, but just more OF it - so imagine Lebron..... doing MORE.... that's MJ.
.

[scandisk_]

Bran Cereals takes this one.

[DaOldLion]

easily Jordan

[VengefulAngel]

Big O and Pete Maravich should get more mentions...

Came here to say Big O and Lebron lol...

[feyki]

Oscar. .

[ralph_i_el]

Guys, Bird averaged 24.3 and 6 throughout his career


Stop it.. You're making me laugh :oldlol:

hurr durr career averages

Let's see LeBron's averages after the next few seasons of bad back, old man basketball. Maybe he'll see the value of backing off a bit.

[3ball]

Let's see LeBron's averages after the next few seasons of bad back, old man basketball.



Exactly - and even WITH the age advantage, Lebron's stats are much worse than MJ's, as shown by the per 100 stats in playoffs:

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts


The stats don't lie - MJ was the better scorer/passer - no one matches his combination of points + assists except prime Oscar.

Also, notice how MJ had better efficiency despite much higher shot volume.. Maintaining equal efficiency at much higher volume means MJ did exactly what Lebron did, but just more OF it - so imagine Lebron..... doing MORE.... that's MJ.

[ralph_i_el]

Exactly - and even WITH the age advantage, Lebron's stats are much worse than MJ's, as shown by the per 100 stats in playoffs:

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts


The stats don't lie - MJ was the better scorer/passer - no one matches his combination of points + assists except prime Oscar.

Also, notice how MJ had better efficiency despite much higher shot volume.. Maintaining equal efficiency at much higher volume means MJ did exactly what Lebron did, but just more OF it - so imagine Lebron..... doing MORE.... that's MJ.


MJ got to take an entire year off for rest:roll:

[ralph_i_el]

how are those 2 things even comparable though

the only way to get an assist is off a field goal. which is 2-3 points minimum



an assist is only as valuable as the guy youre passing to..

in no way is an assist worth as much as the man directly responsible for the 2 points unless hes directly under the rim



even a guy wide open on a kick out has to still make the shot.


i've seen lebron brick a ton of open shots.


and theres no pressure to make a pass. if the other guy misses the shot. you don't get credited with a missed assist



like mark jackson said during the lakers wolves game. "i can go out there right now and get an assist"


at any age a slow fat loser can do that.


but tell mark jackson to go out and get a basket.. see what he says then





in the end your boi bran hurts teams by padding his assists. taking his teammates out of their comfort zones in order to make himself look better. he sacrificed love and bosh's games to make them spot up three point shooters.

Found a new KennyG selfie
http://i.imgur.com/gVje72s.jpg

[LAZERUSS]

You know Wilt was statpadding that season grandpa

Yep...that selfish "stats-padding" led his team to a runaway best record in the league.

No teammate wants to play with a selfish stats-padder.

[jlip]

I would have to go with Oscar Robertson in this case. He was both a dominant scorer and passer leading the league in scoring and assists during his career. Also his career fg% of 48.5% during his era blew most guards out of the water. Finally, his teams led the league in fg% in 9 of the 14 seasons of his career. A pg's job is to run the offense and to get quality shots for his teammates. It's obvious that he did that as well as anyone ever has.