Is there actually a way to guage if a makes others better or not??

[NZStreetBaller]

I personally believe that players just improve on their own. Or mechanics atleast. Not some special aura that players have in others
And statistics alone cannot dictate wether or not a certain player has a positive or negative effect on their performance.

We go on and on about this crap of players making others better. and i seriously do not thinks its the case at all.

[JohnFreeman]

Nash made those Suns players a lot of money

[FreezingTsmoove]

Win loss. Team record after players departure

Look at Jason Kidd with the Mavs and Knicks in his late stages of his career

Josh McRoberts led the league in passes thrown when he was with the Hornets. Next year after he was traded they missed the playoffs and had one of the worst offenses

[TrueBlue89]

Lebron, Harden, Kidd, Bird, Magic Nash Curry, Westbrook, Pippen are all players that make their teammates better. Players like Melo, Wilkins, Iverson, Jordan, Kobe just aren't capable.

[NZStreetBaller]

A player (especially a distributor) can contribute to getting teammates open looks but its not like they're better. They're just getting the open looks they wanted. Like i said. Mechanics.

[GrapeApe]

I don't think it means that a player literally makes another player better, but they can enhance teammates' stats by creating opportunities for easy scores, open looks, transition buckets, etc....This is especially true for role players and and players who struggle to create their own shot. Personally I think it's an overused phrase and basically a cliche, however there are time it does have some merit.

[stalkerforlife]

Titles.

Titles are proof.

[kennethgriffin]

well sure


if a teammate goes from averaging 24/11 to 16/6 ... he's making them worse

if a teammate goes from averaging 26/13 to 16/9... he's making them worse

[SouBeachTalents]

well sure


if a teammate goes from averaging 24/11 to 16/6 ... he's making them worse

if a teammate goes from averaging 26/13 to 16/9... he's making them worse

Or they're just going from first options on terrible teams to third options on championship contenders

[GrapeApe]

Lebron, Harden, Kidd, Bird, Magic Nash Curry, Westbrook, Pippen are all players that make their teammates better. Players like Melo, Wilkins, Iverson, Jordan, Kobe just aren't capable.

Yeah, tell that to guys like Paxson and Kerr. Pippen as well to a lesser degree. Jordan created TONS of open looks for teammates.

[kennethgriffin]

Or they're just going from first options on terrible teams to third options on championship contenders


pau gasol: 1st option ( 02-07 ) = 18/8

pau gasol: 2nd option ( 08-11 ) = 18/9

pau gasol: 3rd option ( 2012 ) = 17/10


when you play with guys who let others get theirs without forcing them out of their comfort zone. they can produce as if they were the 1st option

[stalkerforlife]

pau gasol: 1st option ( 02-07 ) = 18/8

pau gasol: 2nd option ( 08-11 ) = 18/9

pau gasol: 3rd option ( 2012 ) = 17/10

http://i.imgur.com/jnIRkOZ.gif

[SouBeachTalents]

pau gasol: 1st option ( 02-07 ) = 18/8

pau gasol: 2nd option ( 08-11 ) = 18/9

pau gasol: 3rd option ( 2012 ) = 17/10


when you play with guys who let others get theirs without forcing them out of their comfort zone. they can produce as if they were the 1st option

Oh, didn't know Gasol was a third option

[kennethgriffin]

Oh, didn't know Gasol was a third option


2012

kobe = 28ppg
bynum = 18ppg
gasol = 17ppg




if only they still had phil to keep bynum from going nuts ... and if only gasol was healthy in the playoffs... owell

[Akrazotile]

Yes.

If his name is Kobe, Westbrook, or Carmelo, then he doesnt.

If it's not, he does.

[kennethgriffin]

odom coulda helped a bit too in 2012... ****ing stern

[NZStreetBaller]

Yes.

If his name is Kobe, Westbrook, or Carmelo, then he doesnt.

If it's not, he does.

This is the retarded thing im about. Like some people have special powers to makes othwers better and other people are cancers and we use stats to try and back it. Or atleast W L stats. People on this board literally have no understanding about team/game mechanics/psychology

[3ball]

We go on and on about this crap of players making others better. and i seriously do not thinks its the case at all.


The bigger issue is whether a player's presence hurts or helps other players ability to play to their capacity, since that affects whether the team can play to capacity..

In Lebron's case, there are stats which show his style doesn't foster as much teamwork as say, Jordan's style.. For example, it's statistical fact that the APG of Wade, Kyrie, Mo Williams, Love and Bosh all decreased significantly alongside Lebron, while Pippen's and other teammates increased alongside Jordan.. This is statistical fact (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841).

Also, there was little or no increase in the Heat or Cavs' assist frequency during Lebron's time there, whereas the Bulls' assist frequency increased significantly during MJ's time - again, statistical fact (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446).. Off-ball players like MJ foster better teamwork - they always have low time of possession and are highly-assisted, so teammates literally have more assist opportunities and playmaking time.

[knicksman]

well if youre a scorer but dominates the ball instead of off-ball then youre depriving your teammates of apg. Same is true for pgs who scores instead of pass, theyre depriving their teammates of points. Thats why players like iverson, robertson are considered cancers by teammates which led to them being losers. And the same reason why bran is just 2/6 despite his stats and teammates. Jordan sacrificed stats and it resulted to 6/6 instead of multiple 1st round exits.

[dubeta]

well if youre a scorer but dominates the ball instead of off-ball then youre depriving your teammates of apg. Same is true for pgs who scores instead of pass, theyre depriving their teammates of points. Thats why players like iverson, robertson are considered cancers by teammates which led to them being losers. And the same reason why bran is just 2/6 despite his stats and teammates. Jordan sacrificed stats and it resulted to 6/6 instead of multiple 1st round exits.

:lol :roll: :roll:

Jordans entire career was a series of 1st round exits




Of course, until the alpha Scottie Pippen came around

[pauk]

Simple... team success, with & without him on the floor is a good way to see....

Titles i hear somebody say, yes i guess that is team success aswell, winning it all at the end is just a bonus but not necessary at all to measure a guys impact.... its all about the context, namely what the guy had to work with around him, for example taking a scrub team to the promise land shows more impact than cruising along a stacked team.......

[NZStreetBaller]

Simple... team success, with & without him on the floor is a good way to see....

Titles i hear somebody say, yes i guess that is team success aswell, winning it all at the end is just a bonus but not necessary at all to measure a guys impact.... its all about the context, namely what the guy had to work with around him, for example taking a scrub team to the promise land shows more impact than cruising along a stacked team.......

True. So we discredit those who go to the promised land with more help??

[Mr. Jabbar]

damn. kenneth straight up schooling fools in this thread :applause:

[3ball]

Simple... team success, with & without him on the floor is a good way to see....

Titles i hear somebody say, yes i guess that is team success aswell, winning it all at the end is just a bonus but not necessary at all to measure a guys impact.... its all about the context, namely what the guy had to work with around him, for example taking a scrub team to the Finals shows more impact than cruising along a stacked team to the Finals.......


During 1991-1993 playoffs, MJ won with just Pippen's 20/8/6 and Grant's 11/8... That's it.. In 1996-1998 playoffs, he won with just Pippen's 17/7/5.. Rodman had 4/8 in 1998 playoffs.

Compare that to Lebron LOSING with Wade's 25/7/4 and Bosh's 19/9 in 2011 playoffs.

Overall, in 2011-2014 playoffs, Lebron went 2/4 with Wade's 20/5/4 and Bosh's 15/8... Also, HOF-Ray Allen could've been starter anywhere else, but agreed to come off bench for Heat and save Lebron's career.

[dubeta]

During 1991-1993 playoffs, MJ won with just Pippen's 20/8/6 and Grant's 11/8... That's it.. In 1996-1998 playoffs, he won with just Pippen's 17/7/5.. Rodman had 4/8 in 1998 playoffs.

Compare that to Lebron LOSING with Wade's 25/7/4 and Bosh's 19/9 in 2011.

Overall, in 2011-2014 playoffs, Lebron went 2/4 with Wade's 20/5/4 and Bosh's 15/8... Oh, and HOF-Ray Allen could've been starter anywhere else, but agreed to come off bench for Heat and save Lebron's career.. We all remember that.

What were Wade and Boshs stats in their championship years (2012-2013)?

[Akrazotile]

:lol :roll: :roll:

Jordans entire career was a series of 1st round exits




Of course, until the alpha Scottie Pippen came around


Like the old saying says.

When the going gets tough... Pippen gets THICK

[3ball]

Like the old saying says.

When the going gets tough... Pippen gets THICK


WOAT Support from 2nd Option:

1988 ECSF:.. 9 ppg on 42%
1989 ECF:... 10 ppg on 40%
1996 Finals: 15 ppg on 34%
1998 Finals: 15 ppg on 41%

Most importantly, Pippen had the epic choke in Game 7 of 1990 ECF, which cost the Bulls their first championship - they would've beaten the Blazers in the Finals since the Pistons beat the Blazers in 6, but needed 7 and Pippen choke to beat Bulls.

[GoatBoy]

Lebron, Harden, Kidd, Bird, Magic Nash Curry, Westbrook, Pippen are all players that make their teammates better. Players like Melo, Wilkins, Iverson, Jordan, Kobe just aren't capable.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Duffy Pratt]

When Magic joined the Lakers, they went from a strong team to a championship, and the stats of the guys he played with went up- including Kareem and Wilkes.

When Bird came to the Celtics, the team went immediately from one of the worst teams in the league to a title contender, and again the stats of the other guys on the team went up.

Jordan didn't have quite the same impact on his arrival with the Bulls. They went from dreadful to mediocre, but the stats of the guys on the team didn't go up with his arrival.

That's one thing you can look at. Another, is what happens when someone leaves for free agency. Look at all the promising players who left the Stockton Malone Jazz and fizzled. Guys like Howard Eisley and Shandon Anderson.

On this measure, I think Horace Grant, for example, gives some evidence that Jordan or the Bulls were making him better. With Steve Kerr, not so much.

[knicksman]

:lol :roll: :roll:

Jordans entire career was a series of 1st round exits




Of course, until the alpha Scottie Pippen came around

you are so mad that your boy is just 2/6 while jordan 6/6:lol

[GrapeApe]

What were Wade and Boshs stats in their championship years (2012-2013)?

Wade: 20/5/4/2/1
Bosh: 13/8/2/1

Very good 2nd option and solid 3rd option.

The Heat also had solid bench contributions in 2013 (Allen, Birdman, Miller).

[3ball]

Wade: 20/5/4/2/1
Bosh: 13/8/2/1

Very good 2nd option and solid 3rd option.

The Heat also had solid bench contributions in 2013.


Keep in mind that Lebron wasted 19/9 from Bosh in 2011 playoffs and 25/7/4 from Wade.

Also, Bosh wasn't just a "solid" 3rd option - he's a 10-time all-star, and therefore the most decorated 3rd option of all time - but alongside Lebron, he was relegated to floor-spreader, which reduced his stats...

However, the very fact that Bosh was versatile enough to become a 40% 3-point shooter on good volume is a testament to his all-star pedigree and quality of teammate.

[GrapeApe]

Keep in mind that Lebron wasted 19/9 from Bosh in 2011 playoffs and 25/7/4 from Wade.

Also, Bosh wasn't just a "solid" 3rd option - he's a 10-time all-star, and therefore the most decorated 3rd option of all time - but alongside Lebron, he was relegated to floor-spreader, which reduced his stats...

However, the very fact that Bosh was versatile enough to become a 40% 3-point shooter on good volume is a testament to his all-star pedigree and quality of teammate.

Bosh has always been a perimeter oriented big, even in his Toronto days. He did things during Miami's championship run that he was not comfortable with because it helped the team. It had nothing directly to do with Lebron, it was the way the team was constructed, and it's not like Bosh is the kind of player who's banging down low anyway. When you have 2 dominant perimeter players, naturally the offense runs through them. The Heat were a flawed team in many ways, and Bosh did many things and filled a lot of holes that most people don't recognize or appreciate.

[dubeta]

Wade: 20/5/4/2/1
Bosh: 13/8/2/1

Very good 2nd option and solid 3rd option.

The Heat also had solid bench contributions in 2013 (Allen, Birdman, Miller).

How did you calculate 20 ppg for wade? I'm getting 19.4 which would round down to 19




so 19/5/4 for Wade

13/8 for Bosh (who was also injured in 2012)


Meh, not impressed

[kennethgriffin]

How did you calculate 20 ppg for wade? I'm getting 19.4 which would round down to 19




so 19/5/4 for Wade

13/8 for Bosh (who was also injured in 2012)


Meh, not impressed



and since 2 for 6 is less than half. we can round it down to zero



















http://i.imgur.com/EftGScJ.jpg

[dubeta]

and since 2 for 6 is less than half. we can round it down to zero






So Kobe for his career shot 0%?


















Thanks for admitting it

:lol

[3ball]

It had nothing directly to do with Lebron, it was the way the team was constructed, and it's not like Bosh is the kind of player who's banging down low anyway.


Nah, that doesn't fly - Bosh's bread-and-butter was catching the ball on the elbow and facing up... He wasn't able to do that alongside Lebron.. And it had nothing to do with how the team was constructed because Lebron cratered Love's stats the exact same way... Worse, actually.

That's standard procedure for Lebron - he achieves his stats at the expense of teammates - this never happened for MJ, but it's statistical fact for Lebron.. The PPG of Bosh and Love cratered alongside Lebron, while the APG of Wade, Kyrie, Mo Williams, Bosh and Love also cratered - this is statistical fact (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841). .. With teammates playing under capacity, the TEAM plays under capacity and underachieves (2009, 2011, 2014), while going 2/6.. Since Lebron can't achieve elite stats without reducing teammate stats like MJ could, he's nowhere near MJ.

Furthermore, in addition to lowering teammates' APG, Lebron increased their assisted-rate, proving he turns teammates from playmakers into play-finishers - this makes the team worse, since 1-playmaker teams < multiple playmaker teams.. Lebron's hogging of the playmaking and lowering of teammate APG proves his style doesn't foster teamwork - this is proven by the stats - there was little or no increase in the Heat or Cavs' assist frequency during Lebron's time there.. Otoh, the Bulls' assist frequency increased significantly during MJ's time - again, statistical fact (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446).. Off-ball players like MJ foster better teamwork - they always have low time of possession and are highly-assisted, so teammates literally have more assist opportunities and playmaking time.
.

[Rocketswin2013]

3ball - can you link me to wherever you found Jordan's 1997('98?) midrange jump shooting numbers?

[GrapeApe]

How did you calculate 20 ppg for wade? I'm getting 19.4 which would round down to 19




so 19/5/4 for Wade

13/8 for Bosh (who was also injured in 2012)


Meh, not impressed

You're joking right? YOU calling out someone elses rounding?

To you, 15.9 rounds to 15 and .457 rounds to 44%. If you can incorrectly round down, I can round up. Think before you troll. I get the impression you're just phoning it in now.

[dubeta]

You're joking right? YOU calling out someone elses rounding?

To you, 15.9 rounds to 15 and .457 rounds to 44%. If you can incorrectly round down, I can round up. Think before you troll. I get the impression you're just phoning it in now.

Calm down bud, just wondering if I did my math wrong, thats all

[MellowYellow]

A from pll?

[GrapeApe]

Nah, that doesn't fly - Bosh's bread-and-butter was catching the ball on the elbow and facing up... He wasn't able to do that alongside Lebron.. And it had nothing to do with how the team was constructed

Nope. You may as well have just written "I'm clueless". You're just spewing cliched nonsense, and clearly you're just repeating things you've heard (mostly on ish) and didn't actually follow the team. I'm a Heat fan and watched nearly every game. What you are saying is flat out wrong. Sorry. Any basketball analyst who followed the Heat those years would also say you're wrong.

[kennethgriffin]

So Kobe for his career shot 0%?


















Thanks for admitting it

:lol


no.. 45% would round up to 50% since its a double digit percentage


2 for 6 is singular numbers so it rounds down to 0

[3ball]

3ball - can you link me to wherever you found Jordan's 1997('98?) midrange jump shooting numbers?
nba.com:

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/893/stats/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season


Keep in mind that high shot volume can't be achieved on all 3-and-D... Fortunately, MJ had elite efficiency at the additional midrange and isolations required of high volume shooting.. Otoh, Lebron has poor midrange and isolation efficiency, so he can't shoot well at high volume.

Shot volume is a massive issue when comparing MJ to other wings - since his efficiency was equal despite much higher volume, he was essentially doing the same as the other wings, but just more OF IT - so imagine the other wings simply doing more of what they do... That was MJ:

JORDAN:. 43.3 pts.. 2.2 oreb.. 6.1 dreb.. 7.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 2.7 stl.. 1.1 blk.. 32.5 fga.. 118 ORtg.. 56.8 ts
LEBRON:. 36.5 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 9.3 dreb.. 8.6 ast.. 4.5 tov.. 2.2 stl.. 1.2 blk.. 26.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 56.5 ts
DURANT:. 35.8 pts.. 1.2 oreb.. 9.1 dreb.. 4.8 ast.. 4.1 tov.. 1.4 stl.. 1.5 blk.. 25.8 fga.. 114 ORtg.. 58.3 ts
KOBE:..... 34.7 pts.. 1.4 oreb.. 5.5 dreb.. 6.4 ast.. 4.0 tov.. 1.9 stl.. 0.9 blk.. 27.7 fga.. 110 ORtg.. 54.1 ts
WADE:.... 32.2 pts.. 2.0 oreb.. 5.4 dreb.. 7.1 ast.. 4.8 tov.. 2.3 stl.. 1.4 blk.. 24.5 fga.. 108 ORtg.. 55.4 ts


We all know how high volume can help dictate pace of the game... But that isn't enough to win... High volume AND high efficiency is what devastates teams.. However, the real pinnacle of performance is achieving high efficiency at high volume while winning a championship - the player must achieve the high volume at high efficiency within a team concept, without diminishing the stats of teammates.

The only players to reach the holy grail for basketball skill of high volume at high efficiency WHILE winning a championship - that would be 25+ FGA on 45%+ during playoffs while winning ring - were MJ (1992, 1993, 1997, and 1998) and Hakeem (1995).. It's crazy - sometimes we forget how skilled Hakeem eventually became (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njTa6_HBlI0).

[Rocketswin2013]

Thanks. btw LeBron-ball makes every player on the court a threat to score. Bottom line.

LeBron puts crazy pressure on defense. It's been that way for a decade now.

LeBron-led teams have led the NBA in offensive efficiency(pts per 100 poss) 3 times, and came in second twice.

LeBron is a top 5 offensive player of all-time. He gives whatever team he's on a great chance to get a good shot every time down. That's essentially what the goal of a great offense is.

[3ball]

Thanks. btw LeBron-ball makes every player on the court a threat to score. Bottom line.


Lebron significantly reduces the PPG and APG of teammates - bottom line - this is statistical fact (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385841).. With teammates playing under-capacity, the TEAM plays under capacity and underachieves (2009, 2011, 2014).. Otoh, MJ never reduced the PPG or APG of teammates, so the team always played to capacity and never underachieved.

Also, Lebron's reduction of teammates' ppg and apg means his stats are achieved at the expense of teammates - again, MJ had the ability to achieve elite stats WHILE teammates played to capacity, which puts him in another dimension from Lebron.

Since Lebron reduces teammates' APG, there was little or no increase in the Heat or Cavs' assist frequency during Lebron's time there, whereas the Bulls' assist frequency increased significantly during MJ's time - again, this is statistical fact (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=385446).. Off-ball players like MJ foster better teamwork - they always have low time of possession and are highly-assisted, so teammates literally have more assist opportunities and playmaking time.

[SouBeachTalents]

Keep in mind that Lebron wasted 19/9 from Bosh in 2011 playoffs and 25/7/4 from Wade.

Also, Bosh wasn't just a "solid" 3rd option - he's a 10-time all-star, and therefore the most decorated 3rd option of all time - but alongside Lebron, he was relegated to floor-spreader, which reduced his stats...

However, the very fact that Bosh was versatile enough to become a 40% 3-point shooter on good volume is a testament to his all-star pedigree and quality of teammate.

How many All-NBA teams and playoff appearances without LeBron does the "most decorated" 3rd option of all time Bosh have? He must have a lot to garner that title

[dhsilv]

The statement of a player making others better is almost always used to describe what you're calling mechanical.

Great shooters create space opening the floor for guys who control the ball to have more space to work with.

Great passers keep the ball moving so the offense is ahead of the defense.

Great play makers both score for themselves but also draw double teams and can pass to shooters/post players and allow them to get easier baskets.

A great defender can allow other players to rest more on defense without hurting the team, allowing offensive players to spend more energy where they're better.

If you want actually make people better, that's be hard. That's like looking for great locker room guys who help teach the rookies and things like that. I'm not sure you can quantify that.

[3ball]

How many All-NBA teams and playoff appearances without LeBron does the "most decorated" 3rd option of all time Bosh have? He must have a lot to garner that title
A 3rd option would never get voted to many all-nba teams.. Maybe 1 or 2, tops.. I think that's what Robert Parish and James Worthy got.

But Bosh was actually a better 3rd option relative to his competition than those guys were - he was voted a top 12 player in his conference (an all-star) 10 times, which is more than any other 3rd option ever.. So Lebron had access to one of the best 3rd options relative to his competition that anyone's ever had access to.. :confusedshrug:

[90sgoat]

The eye test is still the most reliable, but the NBA really should begin tracking hockey assists, which is an assist that is assisted, such as a pass to a cutting player who then kicks to 3 ball or to another cut.

Tracking hockey assists would encourage players to play more selfless because it would show up as a stat to use in contract negotiations.

Example of player who makes his teammates better is Mike Dunleavy, very underrated. Jason Kidd, but people know that.

Of course a real leader makes people better too, but you'd have to have played ball to know this as it won't show up in stats.

[sdot_thadon]

It's really subjective and mostly open to opinion. Some cases at least are pretty clear though when guys are only useful playing with a certain player or happen to have career years next to said player. But still cases are just cases, nothing concrete can be made.